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Kruunch
02-28-2012, 09:42 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Diamondring
02-28-2012, 09:49 AM
Maybe DT. If we can find a beast in the first second or third round for that inside, then we can really do a lot of damage. I would also like to get a real good lb. If we can find one who is dominant, oh boy our defense would be too good.

tripleaamin9
02-28-2012, 09:53 AM
I think we are set at DT with Marvin Austin coming back we won't take one high unless cantu doesn't come back. If osi doesn't come back we need to take a DE in the first 2 rounds.

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 09:55 AM
Maybe DT. If we can find a beast in the first second or third round for that inside, then we can really do a lot of damage. I would also like to get a real good lb. If we can find one who is dominant, oh boy our defense would be too good.

I don't see DT in the first with Joseph, Canty, and Austin on the team. Unless Canty is a cap casualty I'd think DT would be farther down the draft for us for depth.

I don't think we pick a LBer in this draft at all. We're more then stocked numbers wise, and I think the FO is ok with the talent they have. If we pick a LBer, I'd think it would definitely be in day 2 of the draft (4th round or later) barring something silly happening like Kuechly falling to us in the first.

The potential first round picks as I see it are:

DE (club preference and MO), TE (need and most likely BPA), and CB (but probably not both because it would be for depth and no real standouts at the #32 pick).

Diamondring
02-28-2012, 09:57 AM
I think we are set at DT with Marvin Austin coming back we won't take one high unless cantu doesn't come back. If osi doesn't come back we need to take a DE in the first 2 rounds.Get another DT still since we do have a good amount of DE's already or go another route like db again. I think we should get more defense maybe in the later rounds. Then work on the O-line for that powerful running game.

GameTime
02-28-2012, 10:03 AM
Whom ever is the BPA at the "need" postions will be taken first. Whether it DE, DT, TE, CB, etc.</P>


Also some of you guys bring Marvin Austin as a viable DT.??? What has he done other than be out of football for two + seasons?? He is nowhere near a lock to make the team IMO. </P>


theGiants have aseveralLBs on the team already and the TE....I think they stick with what they have and maybe add a older FA or a draft pick in the later rounds. Beckum IMO get an injury settlement and will be gone. Christian Hopkins will surprise and Pascoe finally gets to focus on being a TE and not waste time with FB drills. </P>

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 10:07 AM
I think we are set at DT with Marvin Austin coming back we won't take one high unless cantu doesn't come back. If osi doesn't come back we need to take a DE in the first 2 rounds.Get another DT still since we do have a good amount of DE's already or go another route like db again. I think we should get more defense maybe in the later rounds. Then work on the O-line for that powerful running game.

Well for DE's we have Osi, Tuck and JPP. Tollefson is a FA and who knows what happens with Osi (and he's definitely gone in 2013). We have Kiwi who can slide back to DE but knowing the Giants' propensity for pass rushing DEs we'd be more likely to draft a DE earlier then a DT this year (is my feeling anyways).

However if we went DT, two standout about where we pick:

Dontari Poe who plays both Tackle and Nose Guard. He is monstrous in size (6-5, 350) and strength but a bit raw (kind of guy we like picking up).

However I could see a number of 3-4 defenses salivating at the prospect of getting this guy as a Nose Guard (think Texans with Wade Phillips) so he may not be available when we pick at #32.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1717351/dontari-poe

The other guy that appears at DT is Brandon Thompson. Not the physical freak that Dontari Poe is, he is a high motor guy that is both strong and non-stop (think a hyper version of Barry Cofield).

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1675640/brandon-thompson

Dontari Poe really is intriguing ... I think if he's gone any interest we have in DT will be gone (in the first round that is).

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 10:14 AM
Whom ever is the BPA at the "need" postions will be taken first. Whether it DE, DT, TE, CB, etc.</P>


Also some of you guys bring Marvin Austin as a viable DT.??? What has he done other than be out of football for two + seasons?? He is nowhere near a lock to make the team IMO. </P>


*the*Giants have aseveral*LBs on the team already and the TE....I think they stick with what they have and maybe add a older FA or a draft pick in the later rounds. Beckum IMO get an injury settlement and will be gone. *Christian Hopkins will surprise and Pascoe finally gets to focus on being a TE and not waste time with FB drills. </P>

I agree that Austin is a question mark, but short of him eating White Castle sliders at practice, he's a lock to be on the team due to his being a second round draft pick (same reason Barden and Sintim are still on the team ... day 1 draft picks). He also has A LOT of upside as he's freak of nature. Now we just need to see it realized.

TE is difficult to guage for me ... while we've gone ghetto TE for the most part in the recent past, the Beckum pick was our shot at getting a play making TE with a high draft pick, so that tells me that the desire is there.

TE this year will be a definite need with both Ballard and Beckum being at the very least, on the PUP list to start the season. However there are some neat possibilities later on in the draft at TE as well (Ladarius Green, Mike Egenew and Evan Rodriguez). Alternatively, the TE position will probably be BPA when we pick (i.e. we'll be able to get the best TE in the draft) which will mean either Dwayne Allen or Coby Fleener in the first (both would be HUGE upgrades for us at the TE position, not to mention a solid play making replacement for the loss of MM). If we don't go defense in the first, this is where I think we pick.

LBers I agree with you on ... we're more then stacked.

Diamondring
02-28-2012, 10:34 AM
I think we are set at DT with Marvin Austin coming back we won't take one high unless cantu doesn't come back. If osi doesn't come back we need to take a DE in the first 2 rounds.Get another DT still since we do have a good amount of DE's already or go another route like db again. I think we should get more defense maybe in the later rounds. Then work on the O-line for that powerful running game.

Well for DE's we have Osi, Tuck and JPP. Tollefson is a FA and who knows what happens with Osi (and he's definitely gone in 2013). We have Kiwi who can slide back to DE but knowing the Giants' propensity for pass rushing DEs we'd be more likely to draft a DE earlier then a DT this year (is my feeling anyways).

However if we went DT, two standout about where we pick:

Dontari Poe who plays both Tackle and Nose Guard. He is monstrous in size (6-5, 350) and strength but a bit raw (kind of guy we like picking up).

However I could see a number of 3-4 defenses salivating at the prospect of getting this guy as a Nose Guard (think Texans with Wade Phillips) so he may not be available when we pick at #32.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1717351/dontari-poe

The other guy that appears at DT is Brandon Thompson. Not the physical freak that Dontari Poe is, he is a high motor guy that is both strong and non-stop (think a hyper version of Barry Cofield).

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1675640/brandon-thompson

Dontari Poe really is intriguing ... I think if he's gone any interest we have in DT will be gone (in the first round that is).I see you have a Mock Draft on your signature. How good is the te you have as the Giants picking in the first round?

swimeasy
02-28-2012, 10:42 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Kruunch, I really don't consider myself as having expertise on particular draft player specs and typically enjoy reading the comments from others here such as yourself for such detail.

That said, I really like your thinking here. Even though Osi is under contract for another year and the Giants certainly have other more pressing challenges, the subtle "remember me, remember I'm here and I'll take less' is already starting while other players who made major contributions to the SB run (and were also major team leadership influences) have kept quiet (Rolle). So it seems the 'Osi situation' will once again be grabbing attention, has already and is begging for a solution. It just might not be what is being bantered in the media.

Kiwi is definitely a team first player and has done everything the Giants have asked him to do, but he was a DE at BC and drafted as such so that would be a natural for him to transition back. If I was Kiwi I might also be happier playing at my more 'natural' position as well.

If Reese thinks that a DE is the BPA in the first, I could definitely see that being the choice. Like what you are proposing here, he seems to look down the street and not just to the next block.

GameTime
02-28-2012, 10:53 AM
Whom ever is the BPA at the "need" postions will be taken first. Whether it DE, DT, TE, CB, etc.</P>


Also some of you guys bring Marvin Austin as a viable DT.??? What has he done other than be out of football for two + seasons?? He is nowhere near a lock to make the team IMO. </P>


theGiants have aseveralLBs on the team already and the TE....I think they stick with what they have and maybe add a older FA or a draft pick in the later rounds. Beckum IMO get an injury settlement and will be gone. Christian Hopkins will surprise and Pascoe finally gets to focus on being a TE and not waste time with FB drills. </P>


I agree that Austin is a question mark, but short of him eating White Castle sliders at practice, he's a lock to be on the team due to his being a second round draft pick (same reason Barden and Sintim are still on the team ... day 1 draft picks). He also has A LOT of upside as he's freak of nature. Now we just need to see it realized. TE is difficult to guage for me ... while we've gone ghetto TE for the most part in the recent past, the Beckum pick was our shot at getting a play making TE with a high draft pick, so that tells me that the desire is there. TE this year will be a definite need with both Ballard and Beckum being at the very least, on the PUP list to start the season. However there are some neat possibilities later on in the draft at TE as well (Ladarius Green, Mike Egenew and Evan Rodriguez). Alternatively, the TE position will probably be BPA when we pick (i.e. we'll be able to get the best TE in the draft) which will mean either Dwayne Allen or Coby Fleener in the first (both would be HUGE upgrades for us at the TE position, not to mention a solid play making replacement for the loss of MM). If we don't go defense in the first, this is where I think we pick. LBers I agree with you on ... we're more then stacked.</P>


Yeah I was forgetting that Austin was 2nd rounder. You made that point and he will be on the team as long as he passes the physical...:)</P>


TE will be interesting to me where they go with this....</P>


</P>


</P>


</P>

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 10:53 AM
I see you have a Mock Draft on your signature. How good is the te you have as the Giants picking in the first round?

He's currently the second rated TE in this draft right behind Dwayne Allen but he didn't do the Combine (pronged his ankle). His stock will rise/fall with his Pro Day coming up in a couple of weeks.

The reason I like him better then Allen is that he has better size (6'6 vs. Allen's 6'3) and he plays the position closer to how we run our offense in an NFL style offense at Stanford.

He's basically a taller version of Dallas Clark.

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 11:00 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Kruunch, I really don't consider myself as having expertise on particular draft player specs and typically enjoy reading the comments from others here such as yourself for such detail.

That said, I really like your thinking here. Even though Osi is under contract for another year and the Giants certainly have other more pressing challenges, the subtle "remember me, remember I'm here and I'll take less' is already starting while other players who made major contributions to the SB run (and were also major team leadership influences) have kept quiet (Rolle). So it seems the 'Osi situation' will once again be grabbing attention, has already and is begging for a solution. It just might not be what is being bantered in the media.

Kiwi is definitely a team first player and has done everything the Giants have asked him to do, but he was a DE at BC and drafted as such so that would be a natural for him to transition back. If I was Kiwi I might also be happier playing at my more 'natural' position as well.

If Reese thinks that a DE is the BPA in the first, I could definitely see that being the choice. Like what you are proposing here, he seems to look down the street and not just to the next block.*




I think Kiwi happens to be a MUCH better pass rushing DE then he is a SAM LBer and I fervantly hope they slide him back to DE in 2012.

With that said, Osi may or may not be here in 2012. My gut feeling is that he will be because he has no leverage and physically sitting out and/or playing games like he did in 2011 will so hurt his stock in the 2013 FA class that it'd be almost criminal (I'm sure his agent is already wanting to push him off a cliff at this point). However, I doubt Osi re-signs with the Giants in 2013 so you have to start looking ahead and since DE is the #1 prime position for the Giants, is why I can see them picking a DE in the first.

However I think between Osi, Kiwi, Tuck and JPP we have enough DE depth for 2012 that I wouldn't mind seeing them address other needs first (as reflected in my mock draft in my sig).

nygsb42champs
02-28-2012, 11:46 AM
I can not see us drafting another DE in the first round.

swimeasy
02-28-2012, 11:51 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Kruunch, I really don't consider myself as having expertise on particular draft player specs and typically enjoy reading the comments from others here such as yourself for such detail.

That said, I really like your thinking here. Even though Osi is under contract for another year and the Giants certainly have other more pressing challenges, the subtle "remember me, remember I'm here and I'll take less' is already starting while other players who made major contributions to the SB run (and were also major team leadership influences) have kept quiet (Rolle). So it seems the 'Osi situation' will once again be grabbing attention, has already and is begging for a solution. It just might not be what is being bantered in the media.

Kiwi is definitely a team first player and has done everything the Giants have asked him to do, but he was a DE at BC and drafted as such so that would be a natural for him to transition back. If I was Kiwi I might also be happier playing at my more 'natural' position as well.

If Reese thinks that a DE is the BPA in the first, I could definitely see that being the choice. Like what you are proposing here, he seems to look down the street and not just to the next block.




I think Kiwi happens to be a MUCH better pass rushing DE then he is a SAM LBer and I fervantly hope they slide him back to DE in 2012.

With that said, Osi may or may not be here in 2012. My gut feeling is that he will be because he has no leverage and physically sitting out and/or playing games like he did in 2011 will so hurt his stock in the 2013 FA class that it'd be almost criminal (I'm sure his agent is already wanting to push him off a cliff at this point). However, I doubt Osi re-signs with the Giants in 2013 so you have to start looking ahead and since DE is the #1 prime position for the Giants, is why I can see them picking a DE in the first.

However I think between Osi, Kiwi, Tuck and JPP we have enough DE depth for 2012 that I wouldn't mind seeing them address other needs first (as reflected in my mock draft in my sig).

I agree about Kiwi as a complete DE. He is also a very articulate leader. I hear ya about other needs. My thing has been and is still the Oline, but I know I just need to expect to be surprised again with Reese and TE has recently become a glaring need as has been discussed.

Indeed, Osi will do what's best for Osi in the end and I need to bite my tongue (keyboard) as he is already getting on my nerves again. Now that there has been the sound bite - counter sound bite between Osi and Reese, he needs to quiet down and let the serious work play out.

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 12:09 PM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Kruunch, I really don't consider myself as having expertise on particular draft player specs and typically enjoy reading the comments from others here such as yourself for such detail.

That said, I really like your thinking here. Even though Osi is under contract for another year and the Giants certainly have other more pressing challenges, the subtle "remember me, remember I'm here and I'll take less' is already starting while other players who made major contributions to the SB run (and were also major team leadership influences) have kept quiet (Rolle). So it seems the 'Osi situation' will once again be grabbing attention, has already and is begging for a solution. It just might not be what is being bantered in the media.

Kiwi is definitely a team first player and has done everything the Giants have asked him to do, but he was a DE at BC and drafted as such so that would be a natural for him to transition back. If I was Kiwi I might also be happier playing at my more 'natural' position as well.

If Reese thinks that a DE is the BPA in the first, I could definitely see that being the choice. Like what you are proposing here, he seems to look down the street and not just to the next block.*




I think Kiwi happens to be a MUCH better pass rushing DE then he is a SAM LBer and I fervantly hope they slide him back to DE in 2012.

With that said, Osi may or may not be here in 2012. My gut feeling is that he will be because he has no leverage and physically sitting out and/or playing games like he did in 2011 will so hurt his stock in the 2013 FA class that it'd be almost criminal (I'm sure his agent is already wanting to push him off a cliff at this point). However, I doubt Osi re-signs with the Giants in 2013 so you have to start looking ahead and since DE is the #1 prime position for the Giants, is why I can see them picking a DE in the first.

However I think between Osi, Kiwi, Tuck and JPP we have enough DE depth for 2012 that I wouldn't mind seeing them address other needs first (as reflected in my mock draft in my sig).

I agree about Kiwi as a complete DE. He is also a very articulate leader. I hear ya about other needs. My thing has been and is still the Oline, but I know I just need to expect to be surprised again with Reese and TE has recently become a glaring need as has been discussed.

Indeed, Osi will do what's best for Osi in the end and I need to bite my tongue (keyboard) as he is already getting on my nerves again. Now that there has been the sound bite - counter sound bite between Osi and Reese, he needs to quiet down and let the serious work play out.


Well if we're going Oline you'd think we'd be angling for a Right Tackle to replace Kareem McKenzie (assuming we don't re-sign him as a Free Agent this year).

If that's the case, the decent tackles you'd be looking at in the first round are Cordy Glenn and Mark Adams both of which are slated to go somewhere in the 20s in the first round. Should one of those fall to us, I could see us taking one (a lot of people are really high on Glenn because he can play both OG and OT).

Historically speaking we don't like to take an Olineman in the first round (who does?!) but seeing as we're picking #32 and there is a definite need, anything is possible. Having said that, both will probably be gone by the time we pick.

Past that for OT we have Amina Silatolu in the second round who is another OG who can play OT and is a physical speciman and could very well be our second round pick in almost any format (thanks to Slipknot for turning me on to this guy). I really like this guy if we're going for an OT on Day 1 of the draft.

However, as reflected by my mock draft, we have some other real possibilities with our #2 pick.

If either Coby Fleener (TE) or Dwayne Allen (TE) fall to the #64 pick, we might very well jump on either.

Similarly we can add some quality depth and a potential third starting Safety with George Iloka (FS).

Then you have Mohamed Sanu (WR) who might fall to #64 because of his Combine 40 times but is considered by everyone to be a taller version of Hakeem Nicks (being a Rutgers fan, I can say without a doubt he reminds me A LOT of Nicks).

So a lot of choices depending which way the Giants want to go with their number one and what their draft boards look like overall (and what they perceive as need vs. desire vs BPA).

myles2424
02-28-2012, 03:50 PM
I think we are set at DT with Marvin Austin coming back we won't take one high unless cantu doesn't come back. If osi doesn't come back we need to take a DE in the first 2 rounds. giving Austin a little too much credit there....dude is coming off IR & hasn't played any football in 2 years.....if we lose Bernard,are you happy with basiclly Austin as your only depth??

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 04:04 PM
I think we are set at DT with Marvin Austin coming back we won't take one high unless cantu doesn't come back. If osi doesn't come back we need to take a DE in the first 2 rounds. giving Austin a little too much credit there....dude is coming off IR & hasn't played any football in 2 years.....if we lose Bernard,are you happy with basiclly Austin as your only depth??

Very true.

Although we do run a 3 DE front a lot.

M0rbid
02-28-2012, 04:09 PM
Dontari Poe with 3 Dline front *drools*

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 04:40 PM
Dontari Poe with 3 Dline front *drools*


If he falls to us that's going to be an agonizing choice for JR and company.

myles2424
02-28-2012, 05:52 PM
Dontari Poe with 3 Dline front *drools*


If he falls to us that's going to be an agonizing choice for JR and company.
I've been hearing about Poe for awhile now,but I've never seen any of his tape...
What big competition did he face this year?
Not going up against some of the best is the only thing that could make him fall to us at this point...

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 09:22 PM
Dontari Poe with 3 Dline front *drools*


If he falls to us that's going to be an agonizing choice for JR and company.
I've been hearing about Poe for awhile now,but I've never seen any of his tape...
What big competition did he face this year?
Not going up against some of the best is the only thing that could make him fall to us at this point...

Whoever drafts Poe is drafting his size and athletic ability. His technique is pedestrian as was his level of competition.

But he played in primarily a 3-4 defense (although somewhat hybrid at times) and is a perfect fit as a 3-4 Nose Guard (hence why I don't think we'd get him).

You can Google videos on him.

Kruunch
02-28-2012, 09:22 PM
Dontari Poe with 3 Dline front *drools*


If he falls to us that's going to be an agonizing choice for JR and company.
I've been hearing about Poe for awhile now,but I've never seen any of his tape...
What big competition did he face this year?
Not going up against some of the best is the only thing that could make him fall to us at this point...

Whoever drafts Poe is drafting his size and athletic ability. His technique is pedestrian as was his level of competition.

But he played in primarily a 3-4 defense (although somewhat hybrid at times) and is a perfect fit as a 3-4 Nose Guard (hence why I don't think we'd get him).

You can Google videos on him.

greenca190
02-28-2012, 10:06 PM
Dontari Poe with 3 Dline front *drools*


If he falls to us that's going to be an agonizing choice for JR and company.
I've been hearing about Poe for awhile now,but I've never seen any of his tape...
What big competition did he face this year?
Not going up against some of the best is the only thing that could make him fall to us at this point...

Whoever drafts Poe is drafting his size and athletic ability. His technique is pedestrian as was his level of competition.

But he played in primarily a 3-4 defense (although somewhat hybrid at times) and is a perfect fit as a 3-4 Nose Guard (hence why I don't think we'd get him).

You can Google videos on him.

Yeah, way too many starved 3-4 defenses out there that bucked the trend too early and still need a nose tackle to expect him to fall to the 32nd pick.

JJC7301
02-28-2012, 10:14 PM
If a DE is BPA, then I've got no problem with it. Would provide protection in case Osi splits, and would allow us to rush Tuck from the inside more.

myles2424
02-28-2012, 11:29 PM
If a DE is BPA, then I've got no problem with it. Would provide protection in case Osi splits, and would allow us to rush Tuck from the inside more.</P>


Osi isnt going anywhere....</P>


So,another DE would mean no more Tollefson &amp; Kiwi full time SLB.....Neither of wich I see happening.....</P>


Tollefson will be resigned for cheap, with the amount of snaps a 4th DE is going to see why draft another in the 1st?</P>


And I think theyre going to see Kiwi belongs at DE and will figure out a SLB..</P>

JJC7301
02-28-2012, 11:51 PM
If a DE is BPA, then I've got no problem with it. Would provide protection in case Osi splits, and would allow us to rush Tuck from the inside more.</P>


Osi isnt going anywhere....</P>


So,another DE would mean no more Tollefson & Kiwi full time SLB.....Neither of wich I see happening.....</P>


Tollefson will be resigned for cheap, with the amount of snaps a 4th DE is going to see why draft another in the 1st?</P>


And I think theyre going to see Kiwi belongs at DE and will figure out a SLB..</P>
I keep Kiwi at SLB -- time to leave him in one place once and for all and he can come back to full time DE if there's an injury amongst the starters.

Plus, being able to bring Kiwi in a rush from the SLB along with the other DE's is a bonus.

The only reason why I would take yet another DE in the 1st is if it is some guy who was NEVER expected to drop that far and is almost impossible to pass on. Sort of like with Prince last year -- nobody expected him to be there for us.

Mod_C
02-28-2012, 11:55 PM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

I think Reese is going to extend his contract

giantyankee1976
02-29-2012, 12:01 AM
I'd hope we'd see the O-Line addressed in the 1st.

If not that, a RB wouldn't, couldn't hurt.

swimeasy
02-29-2012, 09:58 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Kruunch, I really don't consider myself as having expertise on particular draft player specs and typically enjoy reading the comments from others here such as yourself for such detail.

That said, I really like your thinking here. Even though Osi is under contract for another year and the Giants certainly have other more pressing challenges, the subtle "remember me, remember I'm here and I'll take less' is already starting while other players who made major contributions to the SB run (and were also major team leadership influences) have kept quiet (Rolle). So it seems the 'Osi situation' will once again be grabbing attention, has already and is begging for a solution. It just might not be what is being bantered in the media.

Kiwi is definitely a team first player and has done everything the Giants have asked him to do, but he was a DE at BC and drafted as such so that would be a natural for him to transition back. If I was Kiwi I might also be happier playing at my more 'natural' position as well.

If Reese thinks that a DE is the BPA in the first, I could definitely see that being the choice. Like what you are proposing here, he seems to look down the street and not just to the next block.




I think Kiwi happens to be a MUCH better pass rushing DE then he is a SAM LBer and I fervantly hope they slide him back to DE in 2012.

With that said, Osi may or may not be here in 2012. My gut feeling is that he will be because he has no leverage and physically sitting out and/or playing games like he did in 2011 will so hurt his stock in the 2013 FA class that it'd be almost criminal (I'm sure his agent is already wanting to push him off a cliff at this point). However, I doubt Osi re-signs with the Giants in 2013 so you have to start looking ahead and since DE is the #1 prime position for the Giants, is why I can see them picking a DE in the first.

However I think between Osi, Kiwi, Tuck and JPP we have enough DE depth for 2012 that I wouldn't mind seeing them address other needs first (as reflected in my mock draft in my sig).

I agree about Kiwi as a complete DE. He is also a very articulate leader. I hear ya about other needs. My thing has been and is still the Oline, but I know I just need to expect to be surprised again with Reese and TE has recently become a glaring need as has been discussed.

Indeed, Osi will do what's best for Osi in the end and I need to bite my tongue (keyboard) as he is already getting on my nerves again. Now that there has been the sound bite - counter sound bite between Osi and Reese, he needs to quiet down and let the serious work play out.


Well if we're going Oline you'd think we'd be angling for a Right Tackle to replace Kareem McKenzie (assuming we don't re-sign him as a Free Agent this year).

If that's the case, the decent tackles you'd be looking at in the first round are Cordy Glenn and Mark Adams both of which are slated to go somewhere in the 20s in the first round. Should one of those fall to us, I could see us taking one (a lot of people are really high on Glenn because he can play both OG and OT).

Historically speaking we don't like to take an Olineman in the first round (who does?!) but seeing as we're picking #32 and there is a definite need, anything is possible. Having said that, both will probably be gone by the time we pick.

Past that for OT we have Amina Silatolu in the second round who is another OG who can play OT and is a physical speciman and could very well be our second round pick in almost any format (thanks to Slipknot for turning me on to this guy). I really like this guy if we're going for an OT on Day 1 of the draft.

However, as reflected by my mock draft, we have some other real possibilities with our #2 pick.

If either Coby Fleener (TE) or Dwayne Allen (TE) fall to the #64 pick, we might very well jump on either.

Similarly we can add some quality depth and a potential third starting Safety with George Iloka (FS).

Then you have Mohamed Sanu (WR) who might fall to #64 because of his Combine 40 times but is considered by everyone to be a taller version of Hakeem Nicks (being a Rutgers fan, I can say without a doubt he reminds me A LOT of Nicks).

So a lot of choices depending which way the Giants want to go with their number one and what their draft boards look like overall (and what they perceive as need vs. desire vs BPA).

Wow Kruunch, thanks for your time and effort transcribing your thoughts on Oline draft potential. Much appreciated.

I'm still a bit concerned with the Baas/Boothe center experiment. Boothe seemed to do better, but the snaps were still shaky. No doubt that will be on TC's camp to do list.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 10:00 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

I think Reese is going to extend his contract


I have a feeling you're right.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 10:06 AM
I'm still a bit concerned with the Baas/Boothe center experiment. Boothe seemed to do better, but the snaps were still shaky. No doubt that will be on TC's camp to do list.*


Swim I have to say you are easily one of the most polite posters on this board recently (and a refreshing change of pace). [b]

I can understand being uneasy about our Center situation but I'll mention something here that hasn't been brought up before (at least prominently) regarding this:

Our Oline prior to this year had been together for 5 years without fail. In 2010 we had a bunch of injuries to several starters and that seemed to be the impetus to finally pull the trigger on retooling the Oline. Baas, while not looking impressive in the least, is new to both our Oline process AND the position itself (he'd only had one year prior to this as a Center with the 9ers).

Now history has proven Jerry Reese to do well on his bigger FA signings ... just not right away (Boley, Canty, Rolle all having subpar first years). I've learned not to bet against JR, and I happen to think we have an excellent personel department. So I'm willing to wait and see if Baas matures and I think he will (he will almost certainly start at Center given his contract in 2012).

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 10:13 AM
If a DE is BPA, then I've got no problem with it. Would provide protection in case Osi splits, and would allow us to rush Tuck from the inside more.</P>


Osi isnt going anywhere....</P>


So,another DE would mean no more Tollefson & Kiwi full time SLB.....Neither of wich I see happening.....</P>


Tollefson will be resigned for cheap, with the amount of snaps a 4th DE is going to see why draft another in the 1st?</P>


And I think theyre going to see Kiwi belongs at DE and will figure out a SLB..</P>

I would like to see Kiwi slide back to DE but I think you're right ... I think they keep him at LB.

Tollefson is a big question mark. I could see a team overspending slightly for him (think Boss and the Raiders last year) as the buzz word will be pass rush next year I don't see him on the Giants next year (and not out of lack of desire on our part).

DE has been proven and quoted as being the Giants primary #1 position. So it's hard to say if they jump this again. I have a feeling they keep Osi (extend him) and will throw a bunch of project DEs at the position at the end of this years draft.

That and Whitney Merceilus helped himself with the Combine and solidified his draft spot so chances are he won't be available in the first.

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 10:21 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Osi is either going to be back for the nest 3-4 years or hes gone.

if hes gone then I def say that a DE is in the cards

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 10:32 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Osi is either going to be back for the nest 3-4 years or hes gone.

if hes gone then I def say that a DE is in the cards


I don't think I agree with this.

It's possible he's extended. But whether he is or isn't, I think he's a lock to be here in 2012 barring two really unlikely possibilities:

1) He sits out the season
2) A team offers us a first round pick in a trade for him.

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 10:40 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Osi is either going to be back for the nest 3-4 years or hes gone.

if hes gone then I def say that a DE is in the cards


I don't think I agree with this.

It's possible he's extended. But whether he is or isn't, I think he's a lock to be here in 2012 barring two really unlikely possibilities:

1) He sits out the season
2) A team offers us a first round pick in a trade for him.

i'd take a 2nd rounder now.

Last year not so much, but we KNOW we're going to lose him if we don't extend him this year so I woul dDEF take a 2nd rounder for him this year. And I think somebody would DEF give a 2nd rounder for him. 12.5 sacks in 13 games.

IF we get offered a first rounder for him, I don't care if we do hav eosmething worked out for him, I think I would still want him traded i think. Go give the money u worked out with him to like John Abraham or something like that and get a first rounder

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 10:54 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Osi is either going to be back for the nest 3-4 years or hes gone.

if hes gone then I def say that a DE is in the cards


I don't think I agree with this.

It's possible he's extended. But whether he is or isn't, I think he's a lock to be here in 2012 barring two really unlikely possibilities:

1) He sits out the season
2) A team offers us a first round pick in a trade for him.

i'd take a 2nd rounder now.

Last year not so much, but we KNOW we're going to lose him if we don't extend him this year so I woul dDEF take a 2nd rounder for him this year.* And I think somebody would DEF give a 2nd rounder for him. 12.5 sacks in 13 games.

IF we get offered a first rounder for him, I don't care if we do hav eosmething worked out for him, I think I would still want him traded i think. Go give the money u worked out with him to like John Abraham or something like that and get a first rounder


I wouldn't touch Abraham (and he'll want more money then we'd be willing to spend I'd think).

We opened up the trade for a 1st at the beginning of the season and there weren't any takers. I don't think there would be now but yeah I'd take it if offered.

I'm not sure the Giants would consider him worth trading for a 2nd round pick. I think they foresee him being more valuable for 1 year, then a 2nd round pick will be in the future (and I tend to agree with this). But we'll see ... if I was another team I'd give up a second for Osi but his age, injury and contract desires are all stumbling blocks to that happening.

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 10:59 AM
What do you guys think of Whitney Mercilus with our first pick?

Osi is gone this year or next. Tollefson is more than likely gone in FA this year. Kiwi possibly slides back to DE, but we'd still need the depth for the future and considering how much we prize DEs ... ?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1689559/whitney-mercilus

Osi is either going to be back for the nest 3-4 years or hes gone.

if hes gone then I def say that a DE is in the cards


I don't think I agree with this.

It's possible he's extended. But whether he is or isn't, I think he's a lock to be here in 2012 barring two really unlikely possibilities:

1) He sits out the season
2) A team offers us a first round pick in a trade for him.

i'd take a 2nd rounder now.

Last year not so much, but we KNOW we're going to lose him if we don't extend him this year so I woul dDEF take a 2nd rounder for him this year. And I think somebody would DEF give a 2nd rounder for him. 12.5 sacks in 13 games.

IF we get offered a first rounder for him, I don't care if we do hav eosmething worked out for him, I think I would still want him traded i think. Go give the money u worked out with him to like John Abraham or something like that and get a first rounder


I wouldn't touch Abraham (and he'll want more money then we'd be willing to spend I'd think).

We opened up the trade for a 1st at the beginning of the season and there weren't any takers. I don't think there would be now but yeah I'd take it if offered.

I'm not sure the Giants would consider him worth trading for a 2nd round pick. I think they foresee him being more valuable for 1 year, then a 2nd round pick will be in the future (and I tend to agree with this). But we'll see ... if I was another team I'd give up a second for Osi but his age, injury and contract desires are all stumbling blocks to that happening.

yea i highly doubt a 1st rounder would be in the cards for Osi, just saying that if it were offered I would do it regardless if we had somethign worked out with him or not.

I think last year for a 2nd was a different situation. We weren't sure that JPP would be where he is, we have a horrid 3 year span of cap issues coming up, and he only has one year left on the deal oppose to 2.

There were teams offering 2nd rounders last year reportedly though. I am pretty sure that after he got that surgery (which was a lingering situation) and then came through with 12.5 sacks in 13 games will still warrant a 2nd rounder.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 11:50 AM
I agree he's worth a 2nd round offer and I also think we'll get one.

I'm just not sure we'll take it.

For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed and our DLine didn't shine until Osi came back AND Tuck started playing like Tuck.

LT_was_good
02-29-2012, 01:36 PM
I would be thrilled if Merciless dropped to us, though I doubt it. From the limited tape I saw, seemed like every time he was blocked one-on-one, either the play was designed the other way or he was in the backfield making something happen.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 01:38 PM
I would be thrilled if Merciless dropped to us, though I doubt it.* From the limited tape I saw, seemed like every time he was blocked one-on-one, either the play was designed the other way or he was in the backfield making something happen.


Yeah he was fairly beastial in 2011.

I doubt we see him fall to us but a boy can dream [s]

gmen0820
02-29-2012, 01:38 PM
For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed When did that happen? Because there are only 4 games in the reg. season where he didn't register a sack.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 01:42 PM
For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed When did that happen? Because there are only 4 games in the reg. season where he didn't register a sack.

I should amend that actually ... when Osi wasn't there our Dline disappeared.

JPP did make contributions, even when the rest of our Dline didn't. But as shown ... we need more then just JPP playing well.

gmen0820
02-29-2012, 01:46 PM
For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed When did that happen? Because there are only 4 games in the reg. season where he didn't register a sack.

I should amend that actually ... when Osi wasn't there our Dline disappeared.

JPP did make contributions, even when the rest of our Dline didn't. But as shown ... we need more then just JPP playing well.
Agreed. JPP played lights out all year, but until Tuck got healthy and Osi got healthy (or sucked it up, who knows), our DL was nothing close to SB form.

LT_was_good
02-29-2012, 01:46 PM
For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed When did that happen? Because there are only 4 games in the reg. season where he didn't register a sack.

I should amend that actually ... when Osi wasn't there our Dline disappeared.

JPP did make contributions, even when the rest of our Dline didn't. But as shown ... we need more then just JPP playing well.

When JPP was the only healthy DE of the Big 3, he struggled more, although it seemed like there were games that the other 10 guys didn't show up and JPP still played well.

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 03:52 PM
I agree he's worth a 2nd round offer and I also think we'll get one.

I'm just not sure we'll take it.

For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed and our DLine didn't shine until Osi came back AND Tuck started playing like Tuck.

well now thats where the debate comes in...

first - if we can't come to terms with an extension for Osi then I think hes gone for a second rounder... it all depends if we can work something out for him

second was the emergence of our defense due to Osi being back, was it due to tuck being tuck, or was it due to just having a 3rd pass rushing DE period.

PLUS, you have to expect JPP will improve even more for next year

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 03:58 PM
For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed When did that happen? Because there are only 4 games in the reg. season where he didn't register a sack.

I should amend that actually ... when Osi wasn't there our Dline disappeared.

JPP did make contributions, even when the rest of our Dline didn't. But as shown ... we need more then just JPP playing well.
but again I think ur not giving the credit to a healthy tuck either

and again was it OSI or just having a third legit pass rusher

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 03:58 PM
I agree he's worth a 2nd round offer and I also think we'll get one.

I'm just not sure we'll take it.

For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed and our DLine didn't shine until Osi came back AND Tuck started playing like Tuck.

well now thats where the debate comes in...

first - if we can't come to terms with an extension for Osi then I think hes gone for a second rounder... it all depends if we can work something out for him

second was the emergence of our defense due to Osi being back, was it due to tuck being tuck, or was it due to just having a 3rd pass rushing DE period.

PLUS, you have to expect JPP will improve even more for next year


The DLine started to revive once Osi was back. Tuck came alive after that (also after being called out for continually missing practices).

The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

If JPP gets much better, he'll be able to sack the QB by telekinesis.

Here's why I don't think they trade Osi ... they don't have the depth to. They're possibly losing Tolly this year and the pickings are slim for a 1st year play making DE in the draft (unless we trade up which we virtually never do).

So a second round pick doesn't do us much good in that regard if you subscribe to the idea that the DE is the most valued position on the Giants.

Having said that, I could see a way of letting Osi go, getting a second round pick AND grabbing Mario Williams in Free Agency by mortgaging the future but with the idea I'm only going to keep Mario for a year or two.

Having said all that, I'm a Pastry Chef so what the **** do I know?!

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 03:59 PM
For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed When did that happen? Because there are only 4 games in the reg. season where he didn't register a sack.

I should amend that actually ... when Osi wasn't there our Dline disappeared.

JPP did make contributions, even when the rest of our Dline didn't. But as shown ... we need more then just JPP playing well.

When JPP was the only healthy DE of the Big 3, he struggled more, although it seemed like there were games that the other 10 guys didn't show up and JPP still played well.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6392/gamelog

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/23990/gamelog;_ylt=Ajl5B0mUNJHi5rAr4KANitX.uLYF

actually, JPP had his best games when Osi wasn't there

gmen0820
02-29-2012, 03:59 PM
was it OSI or just having a third legit pass rusher
Well what's the difference?

Osi is a legit third pass rusher, and at his salary, isn't easily found (unless your on a rookie deal, of course).

gmen0820
02-29-2012, 04:01 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 04:02 PM
For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed When did that happen? Because there are only 4 games in the reg. season where he didn't register a sack.

I should amend that actually ... when Osi wasn't there our Dline disappeared.

JPP did make contributions, even when the rest of our Dline didn't. But as shown ... we need more then just JPP playing well.

When JPP was the only healthy DE of the Big 3, he struggled more, although it seemed like there were games that the other 10 guys didn't show up and JPP still played well.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6392/gamelog

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/23990/gamelog;_ylt=Ajl5B0mUNJHi5rAr4KANitX.uLYF

actually, JPP had his best games when Osi wasn't there


Heh wonder how much of that was JPP getting doubled by the end of the season.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 04:02 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 04:04 PM
I agree he's worth a 2nd round offer and I also think we'll get one.

I'm just not sure we'll take it.

For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed and our DLine didn't shine until Osi came back AND Tuck started playing like Tuck.

well now thats where the debate comes in...

first - if we can't come to terms with an extension for Osi then I think hes gone for a second rounder... it all depends if we can work something out for him

second was the emergence of our defense due to Osi being back, was it due to tuck being tuck, or was it due to just having a 3rd pass rushing DE period.

PLUS, you have to expect JPP will improve even more for next year


The DLine started to revive once Osi was back. Tuck came alive after that (also after being called out for continually missing practices).

The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

If JPP gets much better, he'll be able to sack the QB by telekinesis.

Here's why I don't think they trade Osi ... they don't have the depth to. They're possibly losing Tolly this year and the pickings are slim for a 1st year play making DE in the draft (unless we trade up which we virtually never do).

So a second round pick doesn't do us much good in that regard if you subscribe to the idea that the DE is the most valued position on the Giants.

Having said that, I could see a way of letting Osi go, getting a second round pick AND grabbing Mario Williams in Free Agency by mortgaging the future but with the idea I'm only going to keep Mario for a year or two.

Having said all that, I'm a Pastry Chef so what the **** do I know?!

well first off let me say that i am a HUUUGE Tolly fan, but I wouldn't consider him a legit player. My point is was it Osi or could having a guy like an Abraham or some rookie first round talent of done a similiar job.

I just don't think it would be in the Giants best interest to keep Osi around this year with the cap and knowing the fact taht you are going to lose him the following year.

lol we could all dream about Mario - but don't dream too hard.... i really think getting aguy like Abraham is the perfect solution to the situation.

If we let Osi go, we are going for a DE early - that much i would bet on. I could even see us moving up to make a move with the extra pick. Lock up a talent for the next 4-5 years at a cheaper price

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 04:06 PM
was it OSI or just having a third legit pass rusher
Well what's the difference?

Osi is a legit third pass rusher, and at his salary, isn't easily found (unless your on a rookie deal, of course).

well are we going to play for next year or are we a team that worries about not only next year but the next two years.

The difference is if it was just having the legit pass rusher and Osi wouldn't agree to what we were offering we could either make a signing like a John Abraham for whatever we were offering Osi or using a high pick.....

we're pretty good at picking DEs early

gmen0820
02-29-2012, 04:13 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 04:16 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 04:22 PM
I agree he's worth a 2nd round offer and I also think we'll get one.

I'm just not sure we'll take it.

For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed and our DLine didn't shine until Osi came back AND Tuck started playing like Tuck.

well now thats where the debate comes in...

first - if we can't come to terms with an extension for Osi then I think hes gone for a second rounder... it all depends if we can work something out for him

second was the emergence of our defense due to Osi being back, was it due to tuck being tuck, or was it due to just having a 3rd pass rushing DE period.

PLUS, you have to expect JPP will improve even more for next year


The DLine started to revive once Osi was back. Tuck came alive after that (also after being called out for continually missing practices).

The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

If JPP gets much better, he'll be able to sack the QB by telekinesis.

Here's why I don't think they trade Osi ... they don't have the depth to. They're possibly losing Tolly this year and the pickings are slim for a 1st year play making DE in the draft (unless we trade up which we virtually never do).

So a second round pick doesn't do us much good in that regard if you subscribe to the idea that the DE is the most valued position on the Giants.

Having said that, I could see a way of letting Osi go, getting a second round pick AND grabbing Mario Williams in Free Agency by mortgaging the future but with the idea I'm only going to keep Mario for a year or two.

Having said all that, I'm a Pastry Chef so what the **** do I know?!

well first off let me say that i am a HUUUGE Tolly fan, but I wouldn't consider him a legit player. My point is was it Osi or could having a guy like an Abraham or some rookie first round talent of done a similiar job.

I just don't think it would be in the Giants best interest to keep Osi around this year with the cap and knowing the fact taht you are going to lose him the following year.

lol we could all dream about Mario - but don't dream too hard.... i really think getting* aguy like Abraham is the perfect solution to the situation.

If we let Osi go, we are going for a DE early - that much i would bet on. I could even see us moving up to make a move with the extra pick.* Lock up a talent for the next 4-5 years at a cheaper price


Ok well Abraham is not just a "legit" pass rusher. He's a legit elite pass rusher. World of difference.

If you could guarantee me a draft choice that would give me that production, I would tyrade for it in an instant (anyone would).

And Osi costs a TON less then Abraham is going to (part of Osi's contention).

All things being equal ... I'd rather keep Osi and extend him. He's proven ... he's good ... and I think he has another 3-4 years left in the tank.

I think that gives you your biggest bang for the buck.

If you're losing Osi *this* year, then you almost have to draft a DE in the first which means you'll probably end up trading up for one or taking a chance on a guy like Andre Branch (blech).

Now if something amazing falls to us, you might see us trade Osi after the draft possibly.

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 04:23 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is.* But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 04:37 PM
I agree he's worth a 2nd round offer and I also think we'll get one.

I'm just not sure we'll take it.

For as good as JPP was, he disappeared when double teamed and our DLine didn't shine until Osi came back AND Tuck started playing like Tuck.

well now thats where the debate comes in...

first - if we can't come to terms with an extension for Osi then I think hes gone for a second rounder... it all depends if we can work something out for him

second was the emergence of our defense due to Osi being back, was it due to tuck being tuck, or was it due to just having a 3rd pass rushing DE period.

PLUS, you have to expect JPP will improve even more for next year


The DLine started to revive once Osi was back. Tuck came alive after that (also after being called out for continually missing practices).

The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

If JPP gets much better, he'll be able to sack the QB by telekinesis.

Here's why I don't think they trade Osi ... they don't have the depth to. They're possibly losing Tolly this year and the pickings are slim for a 1st year play making DE in the draft (unless we trade up which we virtually never do).

So a second round pick doesn't do us much good in that regard if you subscribe to the idea that the DE is the most valued position on the Giants.

Having said that, I could see a way of letting Osi go, getting a second round pick AND grabbing Mario Williams in Free Agency by mortgaging the future but with the idea I'm only going to keep Mario for a year or two.

Having said all that, I'm a Pastry Chef so what the **** do I know?!

well first off let me say that i am a HUUUGE Tolly fan, but I wouldn't consider him a legit player. My point is was it Osi or could having a guy like an Abraham or some rookie first round talent of done a similiar job.

I just don't think it would be in the Giants best interest to keep Osi around this year with the cap and knowing the fact taht you are going to lose him the following year.

lol we could all dream about Mario - but don't dream too hard.... i really think getting aguy like Abraham is the perfect solution to the situation.

If we let Osi go, we are going for a DE early - that much i would bet on. I could even see us moving up to make a move with the extra pick. Lock up a talent for the next 4-5 years at a cheaper price


Ok well Abraham is not just a "legit" pass rusher. He's a legit elite pass rusher. World of difference.

If you could guarantee me a draft choice that would give me that production, I would tyrade for it in an instant (anyone would).

And Osi costs a TON less then Abraham is going to (part of Osi's contention).

All things being equal ... I'd rather keep Osi and extend him. He's proven ... he's good ... and I think he has another 3-4 years left in the tank.

I think that gives you your biggest bang for the buck.

If you're losing Osi *this* year, then you almost have to draft a DE in the first which means you'll probably end up trading up for one or taking a chance on a guy like Andre Branch (blech).

Now if something amazing falls to us, you might see us trade Osi after the draft possibly.

Well he use to be, but hes going to be 34 next season. Hes no spring chicken. hes had 28 sacks in the past 3 years which is damn good. Osi would warrant a bigger contract than what Abraham would get no doubt. SO if Osi doesn't like what we're offering I dont think it would be completely off base to suggest that we couldn't get Abraham for something similiar. Mind you hes 34 years old.

Well you would have to think that if Reees would be willing to give up Osi, he has somebody in mind somewhere. Have to go with our past experiences of drafting DEs and say that you'd feel good about whoever we brought in.....

or hell, maybe we could make the official switch with Kiwi back like u said before and just extend him. If we move him back then we wouldn't have to go DE.

Extending Osi is the goal, but doing it affordably is also the goal. We have alot of other contracts coming up in the next 2 years that we HAVE TO account for, especially with some members of the oline getting old.

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 04:39 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that

Kruunch
02-29-2012, 04:57 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is.* But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that


Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 05:09 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that


Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).

ree agent DE John Abraham says he's aiming for an annual "$12 million-plus" in his new contract. <div class="impact">"Check
out the five top ends," Abraham said. "Everybody is getting 12-plus. I
made $8 million last year ... how am I greedy when Iím just trying to
get paid the same thing they are getting paid?" Three months shy of his
34th birthday, Abraham spent the majority of 2011 on a snap count.
Extremely unlikely to get an annual $12 million, Abraham might even have
trouble matching the $8 million he earned last season. <span class="date">Feb 25 - 9:55 AM

----


i agree with rotoworld, i'd be VERY surprised if he got a 3 for 24 mil deal. I agree Reese wouldn't go for that... but whats the cotract that would make Osi happy? whats the deal we're willing to take?

He already denied the incentives thing last year.

It won't be a suicide, he'll milk an injury like he did this year (in my opinion) and will be happy when hes paid. SOMEBODY will give him a contrac that makes him happy.


</span></div>

giantsfan420
02-29-2012, 05:11 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is.* But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that


Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 05:35 PM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that


Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi

ehh, im not writing off Abraham. I def think Osi is more superior but Abraham has been the victim of double teams his whole career. I think if he came in this mix he'd be just fine...

I also think you guys are being completely dramatic about the cost of what Abraham would be. Theres what he wants and then there is reality.

Lets look at two DEs from last year who were in their mid 20s coming off rookie deals that produced similiar (granted not as good) as Abraham

Jason Babin 5 year 25 mil and ray edwards 5 year 30 mil.... Abraham would be lucky to get that imo. THe guy is too old. I mean the falcons themselves are the ones that gave Ray Edwards the contract and they had Abraham on the other side of him and they STILL won't give him that much money.

EDIT: and listen, i agree whta Osi has said in the media about is refreshing, but it far from proves anything.....

he may not get top 5 DE money, but what, he wants top 10 now? we have no idea what his demands.are.

Just cuz Osi says he won't be as public this year, doesn't mean hes living in reality

MattMeyerBud
02-29-2012, 05:50 PM
also would like to point out that the last contract Abraham signed was a 6 years for 45 mil - i don't think hes going to be getting the same average per year at age 34 as he did at 28

Kruunch
03-01-2012, 09:23 AM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is.* But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that


Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi

JPP doesn't make enough money to give up any to Osi. He's a $3.1mil cap hit this year, 2.3 of which is guaranteed.

@MMB: I just don't know. The incentives deal they offered him this year was fairly piddily (something 250k on ridiculous numbers (which ironically he would have made lol)) which is why he turned it down flat. Osi also isn't really approaching this with any sort of intelligence ... I just don't know what would make him happy.

If I was playing GM I'd offer him a restructured deal at 4 years for $24 million base and another $2-3 mil/year in incentives. That would give him potentially Abraham-like money without killing our cap unless he keeps up his performance (and then you don't mind so much).

The potential killer to those kinds of numbers if what Mario Williams may get. If MW gets Julius Peppers or better money, I don't see anything reasonable keeping Osi happy here.

MattMeyerBud
03-01-2012, 09:38 AM
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.

To your point then, does it matter?Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher


Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that


Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi

JPP doesn't make enough money to give up any to Osi. He's a $3.1mil cap hit this year, 2.3 of which is guaranteed.

@MMB: I just don't know. The incentives deal they offered him this year was fairly piddily (something 250k on ridiculous numbers (which ironically he would have made lol)) which is why he turned it down flat. Osi also isn't really approaching this with any sort of intelligence ... I just don't know what would make him happy.

If I was playing GM I'd offer him a restructured deal at 4 years for $24 million base and another $2-3 mil/year in incentives. That would give him potentially Abraham-like money without killing our cap unless he keeps up his performance (and then you don't mind so much).

The potential killer to those kinds of numbers if what Mario Williams may get. If MW gets Julius Peppers or better money, I don't see anything reasonable keeping Osi happy here.

I just disagree at the notion that Abraham is going to be getting 8 mil a year. I don't think its logical. I also don't think giving Osi potentially 8-9 mil a year would be a good move either. I'd rather let him go and save that money for Cruz, KP, Nicks, and Kiwi

Kruunch
03-01-2012, 02:57 PM
I just disagree at the notion that Abraham is going to be getting 8 mil a year. I don't think its logical.* I also don't think giving Osi potentially* 8-9 mil a year would be a good move either. I'd rather let him go and save that money for Cruz, KP, Nicks, and Kiwi


I have no idea what Abraham will get ... but he's already gotten that money and now wants MORE.

The franchise number for a DE is over $10mil (one of the highest paid positions in the league).

I think Osi is worth $6mil a year easy right now and an incentives deal (to pay him more) would probably keep him happy.

If you wanted to keep him, I think that's what it will take.

However the Giants definitely have the leverage to keep him for at least 2012. Whether Osi pulls the same BS as he did in 2011 is up to him.

MattMeyerBud
03-01-2012, 03:50 PM
I just disagree at the notion that Abraham is going to be getting 8 mil a year. I don't think its logical. I also don't think giving Osi potentially 8-9 mil a year would be a good move either. I'd rather let him go and save that money for Cruz, KP, Nicks, and Kiwi


I have no idea what Abraham will get ... but he's already gotten that money and now wants MORE.

The franchise number for a DE is over $10mil (one of the highest paid positions in the league).

I think Osi is worth $6mil a year easy right now and an incentives deal (to pay him more) would probably keep him happy.

If you wanted to keep him, I think that's what it will take.

However the Giants definitely have the leverage to keep him for at least 2012. Whether Osi pulls the same BS as he did in 2011 is up to him.

I just don't think thats a number we will be able to swing with alot more contracts to come up. I would like to keep Osi, but I can't see the Giants handing that out.

And i think Abraham will end up signing for less than Osi would if OSi does get traded. I dunno what he'll get either but no way hes gettin 8 per year average...

off the top of my head I think I could name 10 other DEs - EASY - that are better than Abraham, he may even be out of the top 15

MattMeyerBud
03-01-2012, 03:51 PM
and i'll say even more if u want to include 3-4 OLBs - but im not sure how that works... they probably group defensive ends together regardless of style of defense

MattMeyerBud
03-01-2012, 03:55 PM
and also Giants may have the leverage to keep him for 2012, but if its in our best interest is where we disagree

Kruunch
03-01-2012, 04:06 PM
and also Giants may have the leverage to keep him for 2012, but if its in our best interest is where we disagree


We'll see in the next few weeks.

MattMeyerBud
03-01-2012, 04:11 PM
that we will

but I have a question - u seem to have a better idea of the cap and franchise tags and such

how does the tag work on defense for like d-ends and olbs???

I mean does the 3-4 and 4-3 matter?

IS it just all DEs and all OLBs or do they factor in that a 4-3 DE is essentially the same as a a 3-4 OLB. Or at least MORE similiar

Kruunch
03-01-2012, 04:58 PM
that we will

but I have a question - u seem to have a better idea of the cap and franchise tags and such

how does the tag work on defense for like d-ends and olbs???

I mean does the 3-4 and 4-3 matter?

IS it just all DEs and all OLBs or do they factor in that a 4-3 DE is essentially the same as a a 3-4 OLB. Or at least MORE similiar


To be honest, I'm not sure if OLBs and DEs are under the same tag. Off hand I'd say no, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they are (anyone know of a franchised OLB in a 3-4?).

The 2012 Franschise Tag for a DE is 10.6 mil and LBer is 8.8 mil.

*EDIT* After a little searching it appears that they are separate tags:


On February 19, 2008, the Ravens placed the franchise tag on Suggs. He initially filed a grievance because the team had designated him as a LB with the franchise tag rather than a DE, which resulted in a monetary difference of about $800,000. Despite being unhappy with the franchise tag, Suggs reported to off-season mini-camps to practice with the team. On May 13, 2008, he reached an agreement with the team to split the difference in the franchise tag amounts of a LB and a DE and drop his grievance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Suggs

I'm not sure if this was carried through in the current CBA.

swimeasy
03-04-2012, 01:03 PM
I'm still a bit concerned with the Baas/Boothe center experiment. Boothe seemed to do better, but the snaps were still shaky. No doubt that will be on TC's camp to do list.


Swim I have to say you are easily one of the most polite posters on this board recently (and a refreshing change of pace). [b]

I can understand being uneasy about our Center situation but I'll mention something here that hasn't been brought up before (at least prominently) regarding this:

Our Oline prior to this year had been together for 5 years without fail. In 2010 we had a bunch of injuries to several starters and that seemed to be the impetus to finally pull the trigger on retooling the Oline. Baas, while not looking impressive in the least, is new to both our Oline process AND the position itself (he'd only had one year prior to this as a Center with the 9ers).

Now history has proven Jerry Reese to do well on his bigger FA signings ... just not right away (Boley, Canty, Rolle all having subpar first years). I've learned not to bet against JR, and I happen to think we have an excellent personel department. So I'm willing to wait and see if Baas matures and I think he will (he will almost certainly start at Center given his contract in 2012).

Thanks again for your response Kruunch. And thank you for your kind words. I did get a chuckle out of it as my rep at work is the opposite. (It can be a challenge to be a New Yorker outside of the tri-state area) Maybe I should use you as a reference.[;)]

OMG this thread has grown. Always appreciate everyone's insights. I know I understand only a fraction of it but will be following what Reese does with perhaps a more educated eye nonetheless. [:)]

JJC7301
03-04-2012, 11:12 PM
I've got no problem with a DE. I want to keep Osi, but I don't know if it's going to happen. Plus, I want Kiwi to stay at LB.

I'd prefer o-line or secondary with the 1st, but whoever the BPA is, is fine by me. DT wouldn't be bad either because Bernard is so-so, we don't know what Austin is going to be, and Canty is $6 million per year.

M0rbid
03-04-2012, 11:14 PM
This year it's supposed to be deep in DT prospects.

THE_New_York_Giants
03-04-2012, 11:14 PM
Whenever we draft a DE, I usual feel safe it's a solid pick. (Of course with the exception of the blind man)

JJC7301
03-04-2012, 11:23 PM
This year it's supposed to be deep in DT prospects.

I've got no problem with a DT.

RagTime Blue
03-08-2012, 09:38 AM
I've got no problem with a DE. I want to keep Osi, but I don't know if it's going to happen. <font size="6">Plus, I want Kiwi to stay at LB</font>.

I'd prefer o-line or secondary with the 1st, but whoever the BPA is, is fine by me. DT wouldn't be bad either because Bernard is so-so, we don't know what Austin is going to be, and Canty is $6 million per year.

Yes, I think Kiwi's play has gotten to where he's even better at LB than he is at DE. Plus I don't see anyone we currently have supplanting him at SAM. Maybe Sintim, if he shows something he hasn't yet shown us.

heavyhitter
03-08-2012, 10:15 AM
<font size="2">I'm not a fan of Coples and Upshaw will be off the board. If the Giants go DE in the 1st round, they go Nick Perry (Southern Cal).</font>

Kruunch
03-08-2012, 10:21 AM
<font size="2">I'm not a fan of Coples and Upshaw will be off the board. If the Giants go DE in the 1st round, they go Nick Perry (Southern Cal).</font>


Perry will probably be off the board as well.

Leaving Andre Branch as our first round DE option (which I'm not really in favor of).

Guess it really depends on who falls to us.

heavyhitter
03-08-2012, 10:33 AM
<font size="2">I'm not a fan of Coples and Upshaw will be off the board. If the Giants go DE in the 1st round, they go Nick Perry (Southern Cal).</font>


Perry will probably be off the board as well.

Leaving Andre Branch as our first round DE option (which I'm not really in favor of).

Guess it really depends on who falls to us.<font size="2">Not really a fan of Branch either. Played DE at Clemson but most analyst are projecting him as a 3-4 OLB.</font>