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View Full Version : Great news on the Osi front.. John Abrahan 3 years/$16 million



NYG4lifeNYK
03-19-2012, 04:04 PM
http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=438042



<font color="#0000FF">Despite Abraham's statements that he deserves $12 million/year, he ended
up signing a three year deal worth "about $16 million." More
specifically, Abraham got a $2.25 million signing bonus, base salaries
of $1.5 million (2012), $3.25 million (2013) and $3.25 million (2014),
along with "about $7 million" of per-game roster bonuses if he's
healthy and playing.


I absolutely LOVE this deal as a roadmap to extending Osi. Abraham is
older, but has been marginally more productive than Osi the past 2-3
years. </font>
<font color="#0000FF">


It may be wishful thinking that Osi would ever sign something like this,
but it would provide great comfort to have out #3 pass-rushing stud
tied up for another 3-4 years!</font>

MattMeyerBud
03-19-2012, 04:13 PM
i would think Trent Coles contract is more comparable to Osi

jhamburg
03-19-2012, 04:14 PM
i would think Trent Coles contract is more comparable to Osi


Cole is a little younger and a little better though

GMENAGAIN
03-19-2012, 05:21 PM
This deal will certainly give the Giants something to point to in any negotiations with Osi, but Osi will be pointing to Cole's deal . . . . .

NYG4lifeNYK
03-19-2012, 05:34 PM
This deal will certainly give the Giants something to point to in any negotiations with Osi, but Osi will be pointing to Cole's deal . . . . .

Osi said after the Super Bowl he would love to stay a Giant even if he had to take less.


He's not looking for a monster deal he just wants a new contract.

He should get more than Abraham but not as much as Cole.

G-Men Surg.
03-19-2012, 05:40 PM
i would think Trent Coles contract is more comparable to Osi

Agree and Abraham is going to be 34 in less than 2 months. Huge age difference between Osi an John.

Mr Excitement
03-19-2012, 06:26 PM
This deal will certainly give the Giants something to point to in any negotiations with Osi, but Osi will be pointing to Cole's deal . . . . .

Cole is a better all round player than Osi...

Harooni
03-20-2012, 01:59 AM
no negotiations needed, have him play out his contract and he will come back after when he is 33 and beg reese to give him 1.5 a season.

Diamondring
03-20-2012, 02:06 AM
I hope he plays well for is but I think that something is not right here. Do we even need him at that price? I think they shouldn't have picked him up and there are better options.

jparmer
03-20-2012, 05:57 AM
I hope he plays well for is but I think that something is not right here. Do we even need him at that price? I think they shouldn't have picked him up and there are better options.

Huh?

MattMeyerBud
03-20-2012, 08:19 AM
i would think Trent Coles contract is more comparable to Osi


Cole is a little younger and a little better though

Osi is a year older and a slightly better pass rusher..

i just think its more comparable to Cole than to Abraham who is going on what, 35? And hes def not as good as Osi...

MattMeyerBud
03-20-2012, 08:20 AM
This deal will certainly give the Giants something to point to in any negotiations with Osi, but Osi will be pointing to Cole's deal . . . . .

Cole is a better all round player than Osi...

not a better pass rusher...

hungrrrry
03-20-2012, 09:21 AM
This deal will certainly give the Giants something to point to in any negotiations with Osi, but Osi will be pointing to Cole's deal . . . . .

Osi said after the Super Bowl he would love to stay a Giant even if he had to take less.


He's not looking for a monster deal he just wants a new contract.

He should get more than Abraham but not as much as Cole.
I think Osi fits right in the middle of these two contracts or leans a bit toward Trent Coles. Osi is better at causing turnovers more than both of these guys but suffers against the run. His injury concern is equal to cole and abraham as well. So he certainly fits in the middle...3-4 years, $20-28 mil respectively.

As long as Osi plays his heart out, I would offer such a deal.

slipknottin
03-20-2012, 09:24 AM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

Captain Chaos
03-20-2012, 09:30 AM
Nice post, sure puts things into perspective...Lets hope the G-men can get her done!

Coach Carter
03-20-2012, 01:07 PM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

Come on, Trent Cole has played more snaps per game than Osi the last three seasons and he has played more games than Osi the last three seasons. I can say this without having to look up any stats.

Trent Cole also played in more blitz happy defensive schemes than Osi, so he would come free more often. Last point, this past season, Trent Cole played in a wide-9, so he was lined up even further outside than Osi and all he did was rush the passer on every down.

MattMeyerBud
03-21-2012, 08:30 AM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother

mommy2dylan
03-22-2012, 11:15 AM
Osi more feared than Cole, I don't know about that ... I will say that Osi numbers are deceptive cause he is in single coverage much more, especially this past year, coverage is rolled over to JPP and Tuck ... I am NOT deminishing his talent, just stating the obviuos ... I would love to keep him here

TrueBlue@NYC
03-22-2012, 11:23 AM
Cole is a better overall talent than Osi, but the gap is not that wide. One thing that Osi has over Cole is that until this year, Cole has pretty much been PHI's only true pass rusher, Osi has had the benefit of playing with Strahan, Tuck, Kiwi and JPP. </P>


I think I agree with one of the earlier posters, Osi probably deserves a contract somewhere b/t the Abraham and Cole one. He can't get as much as Cole b/c with JPP now stepping in Osi is no longer going to be a true starter, but he should get more than Abraham b/c he's younger. </P>

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 11:26 AM
Osi more feared than Cole, I don't know about that ... I will say that Osi numbers are deceptive cause he is in single coverage much more, especially this past year, coverage is rolled over to JPP and Tuck ... I am NOT deminishing his talent, just stating the obviuos ... I would love to keep him here

Cole is a damn fine player as well.. but when it comes to pass rush very few are more feared than Osi...

Cole had Babin at Left End and Cole is a bonafied Rde. He actually reminds me of Tuck alot.

Kruunch
03-22-2012, 12:31 PM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother




They have about the same sacks and I don't agree with Slip on the hits/hurries. Osi tends to be pretty top of the line in those categories.

Osi also causes a ton more forced fumbles (which adds to my point about hits/hurries as well).

However Cole has missed 4 games in 7 years. Osi has missed 31 games in 9 seasons. Big difference.

Osi will be 31 when we're talking about him and Free Agency again ... I would think if he has an average year for him (9 sacks, 4 FFs) and plays all 16 games, he'll get (and be worth imo) somewhere between Cole and Abraham's contracts (he is almost the definition of splitting the two).

I think Osi is more of a play maker then Cole while Cole has been more consistant.

Abraham can be a sack machine, but he's so streaky you can't count on his production/health. I think he got the perfect contract for him at this point in his career.

BlueSanta
03-22-2012, 01:15 PM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother



Ehhh. Your stats are very misleading and in some cases flat out wrong(Osi had 12.5 sacks last year, but that includes the playoff stats). It goes to show how they can be manipulated to make any point.

In your game count, you count post season stats, for Osi in 2011, but not for Trent in 2010.

To be fair, if you look at games missed, it is more telling and honest.

-Osi in his career has missed 32 games.

-Trent in his career has missed 4.

In Trent's career, which is 2 years shorter then Osi's, he has almost 100 more tackles and only 1 less sack. However, he has far fewer forced fumbles.

Trent's stats have been far more consistent throughout his career in both facets of the game. He has never had a letdown year, like Osi had in 2009.

Lastly, Trent is an every down player and therefor has far more value than Osi does at this point in his career. Trent played 98 more snaps in 2011 than Osi, despite the Giants playing 4 more games than the Eagles.

I love me some Osi, but your being very dishonest with the way you present those stats.

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 01:29 PM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother



Ehhh. Your stats are very misleading and in some cases flat out wrong(Osi had 12.5 sacks last year, but that includes the playoff stats). It goes to show how they can be manipulated to make any point.

In your game count, you count post season stats, for Osi in 2011, but not for Trent in 2010.

To be fair, if you look at games missed, it is more telling and honest.

-Osi in his career has missed 32 games.

-Trent in his career has missed 4.

In Trent's career, which is 2 years shorter then Osi's, he has almost 100 more tackles and only 1 less sack. However, he has far fewer forced fumbles.

Trent's stats have been far more consistent throughout his career in both facets of the game. He has never had a letdown year, like Osi had in 2009.

Lastly, Trent is an every down player and therefor has far more value than Osi does at this point in his career. Trent played 98 more snaps in 2011 than Osi, despite the Giants playing 4 more games than the Eagles.

I love me some Osi, but your being very dishonest with the way you present those stats.




first, nobody is debating overall - we're debating whose the better pass rusher

second, for the entire season should count, especially when if u use postseason and see that they played the same exact amount o gmaes for the year. Its quite clear. Nevermind the fact that Osi alsoput these numbers up on a bigger stage. If anything Osi should get MORE credit for it.

Osi was obviously still recovering from his injury in 2009 and i'd say that year was very copmparable to the year Cole had in 08.

again the debate is as a pass rusher. Osis number on the free market would def be closer to coles than Abrahams. Granted Osi isn't as good vs the run as cOle by any means, but his sack-strip is one of the most feared things that offensive coordinators have to account for when it comes to blocking him. Also age is a factor in contracts.

Go look at the contract Mario Williams has. He isn't that great vs the run.

Kruunch
03-22-2012, 01:53 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

BlueSanta
03-22-2012, 02:00 PM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother



Ehhh. Your stats are very misleading and in some cases flat out wrong(Osi had 12.5 sacks last year, but that includes the playoff stats). It goes to show how they can be manipulated to make any point.

In your game count, you count post season stats, for Osi in 2011, but not for Trent in 2010.

To be fair, if you look at games missed, it is more telling and honest.

-Osi in his career has missed 32 games.

-Trent in his career has missed 4.

In Trent's career, which is 2 years shorter then Osi's, he has almost 100 more tackles and only 1 less sack. However, he has far fewer forced fumbles.

Trent's stats have been far more consistent throughout his career in both facets of the game. He has never had a letdown year, like Osi had in 2009.

Lastly, Trent is an every down player and therefor has far more value than Osi does at this point in his career. Trent played 98 more snaps in 2011 than Osi, despite the Giants playing 4 more games than the Eagles.

I love me some Osi, but your being very dishonest with the way you present those stats.




first, nobody is debating overall - we're debating whose the better pass rusher

second, for the entire season should count, especially when if u use postseason and see that they played the same exact amount o gmaes for the year. Its quite clear. Nevermind the fact that Osi alsoput these numbers up on a bigger stage. If anything Osi should get MORE credit for it.

Osi was obviously still recovering from his injury in 2009 and i'd say that year was very copmparable to the year Cole had in 08.

again the debate is as a pass rusher. Osis number on the free market would def be closer to coles than Abrahams. Granted Osi isn't as good vs the run as cOle by any means, but his sack-strip is one of the most feared things that offensive coordinators have to account for when it comes to blocking him. Also age is a factor in contracts.

Go look at the contract Mario Williams has. He isn't that great vs the run.

Huh? You make no sense.

You are the one who brought up games played. So me responding mentioning Osi's 32 missed games to Cole's 4 and Osi' entire year of garbage(and benching) play in 2009 are well within bounds to respond to the stats that you CLEARLY manipulated to your favor.

And for the record, if a guy is injured a lot, that effects his passrushing stats.

Osi has 8 TIMES as many games missed as Cole. Was Osi a better passrusher than Cole for those entire 2 years of missed games as well as the entire 2009 season which you say above was because he wasnt recovered?

Ill say it again, Osi has been in the NFL for 2 more years than Cole, and has 1 more sack. That alone refutes your claim he is a better passrusher.

Furthermore, I understand your comparing passrushing stats, but that is pointless and meaningless in the overall conversation of this thread which is contract comparisons. It is fair to say Osi is better when healthy, but that doesnt really matter in contract negotiations either since your ability to stay on the field matters in contract negotiations too, as does run defense, as does snap count. While it is at least debatable who is the better passrusher, it is NOT debatable who is better vs the run and who has a much higher snap count.

Lastly, Mario Williams is not as good as Cole vs the run. But he isnt a liability either. He is much better than Osi at gap control. That is also not debatable.

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 02:57 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up. How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.

gmen0820
03-22-2012, 03:02 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up.* How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.
And you call hurries/pressures subjective...

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 03:06 PM
not a better pass rusher...


yes he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar. Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother



Ehhh. Your stats are very misleading and in some cases flat out wrong(Osi had 12.5 sacks last year, but that includes the playoff stats). It goes to show how they can be manipulated to make any point.

In your game count, you count post season stats, for Osi in 2011, but not for Trent in 2010.

To be fair, if you look at games missed, it is more telling and honest.

-Osi in his career has missed 32 games.

-Trent in his career has missed 4.

In Trent's career, which is 2 years shorter then Osi's, he has almost 100 more tackles and only 1 less sack. However, he has far fewer forced fumbles.

Trent's stats have been far more consistent throughout his career in both facets of the game. He has never had a letdown year, like Osi had in 2009.

Lastly, Trent is an every down player and therefor has far more value than Osi does at this point in his career. Trent played 98 more snaps in 2011 than Osi, despite the Giants playing 4 more games than the Eagles.

I love me some Osi, but your being very dishonest with the way you present those stats.




first, nobody is debating overall - we're debating whose the better pass rusher

second, for the entire season should count, especially when if u use postseason and see that they played the same exact amount o gmaes for the year. Its quite clear. Nevermind the fact that Osi alsoput these numbers up on a bigger stage. If anything Osi should get MORE credit for it.

Osi was obviously still recovering from his injury in 2009 and i'd say that year was very copmparable to the year Cole had in 08.

again the debate is as a pass rusher. Osis number on the free market would def be closer to coles than Abrahams. Granted Osi isn't as good vs the run as cOle by any means, but his sack-strip is one of the most feared things that offensive coordinators have to account for when it comes to blocking him. Also age is a factor in contracts.

Go look at the contract Mario Williams has. He isn't that great vs the run.

Huh? You make no sense.

You are the one who brought up games played. So me responding mentioning Osi's 32 missed games to Cole's 4 and Osi' entire year of garbage(and benching) play in 2009 are well within bounds to respond to the stats that you CLEARLY manipulated to your favor.

And for the record, if a guy is injured a lot, that effects his passrushing stats.

Osi has 8 TIMES as many games missed as Cole. Was Osi a better passrusher than Cole for those entire 2 years of missed games as well as the entire 2009 season which you say above was because he wasnt recovered?

Ill say it again, Osi has been in the NFL for 2 more years than Cole, and has 1 more sack. That alone refutes your claim he is a better passrusher.

Furthermore, I understand your comparing passrushing stats, but that is pointless and meaningless in the overall conversation of this thread which is contract comparisons. It is fair to say Osi is better when healthy, but that doesnt really matter in contract negotiations either since your ability to stay on the field matters in contract negotiations too, as does run defense, as does snap count. While it is at least debatable who is the better passrusher, it is NOT debatable who is better vs the run and who has a much higher snap count.

Lastly, Mario Williams is not as good as Cole vs the run. But he isnt a liability either. He is much better than Osi at gap control. That is also not debatable.





I think im making perfect sense. I compared their production by the games they played the past few years. You tried to say that im twisting stats because I included their playoff games as well.

I agree Osi is more of an injury risk, nobody is debating that.

And i disagree that contract comparisons, being a pass rusher is what gets defensive ends paid not their gap control.



You said it yourself, just go compare Mario Williams contract and situation to Cole's. You say that there isn't much of a difference, except that Mario got baout 40 million more AND hes played 17 games in the past 2 years.

Im not saying Osi is going to Coles money of a 10mil a year average, but Osi has said he would take less to stay here he just wants something fair. I figure it'll take like a 7.5 mil year average on however thats going to work out and that will be the home town discount.

That won't be based off of abrahams contract.

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 03:08 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up. How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.
And you call hurries/pressures subjective...

well they are... i'm just stating my opinion on a player whose games we all watched and sio we can talk about.

Have u seen every Philly game and kept an eye on Cole? There is a reason its not an official stat

EDIT: would u disagree with that assessment? That QBs haven't made that priority when they face Osi after the year he had last year?

Mind you im not even an Osi fan in general, i've bashed him as much as anybody else so im not on any homer juice

Kruunch
03-22-2012, 03:11 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up.* How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.


I wouldn't disagree with that. But keep in mind that barring the ridiculous 10 FF season, Osi has only averaged 1 more FF per year then Cole for his career.


Hence why I said the difference is very marginal (made up for the fact that Cole doesn't miss games).

If I were Reese with Osi arguing to get Cole's contract, I quickly point out that Cole is a much more consistant and complete DE then Osi is.

I do think Osi is closer to the Abraham contract (in comparison) then to the Cole contract. The issue of Abraham's contract is that Osi is 3 1/2 years younger.

Kruunch
03-22-2012, 03:15 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up.* How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.
And you call hurries/pressures subjective...

well they are... i'm just stating my opinion on a player whose games we all watched* and sio we can talk about.

Have u* seen every Philly game and kept an eye on Cole? There is a reason its not an official stat

EDIT: would u disagree with that assessment? That QBs haven't made that priority when they face Osi after the year he had last year?

Mind you im not even an Osi fan in general, i've bashed him as much as anybody else so im not on any homer juice


I agree with you on hurries/pressures (not to mention QBs who hold the ball until the last second).

However I don't think Osi really got singled out by QBs until 2010 when he got all those FFs. Don't forget, he was benched in 2009 and after having missed 2008, dropped off most people's radar.

So QBs hurrying due to Osi's rep as a pass rusher really only came about this year.

Kruunch
03-22-2012, 03:15 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up.* How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.
And you call hurries/pressures subjective...

well they are... i'm just stating my opinion on a player whose games we all watched* and sio we can talk about.

Have u* seen every Philly game and kept an eye on Cole? There is a reason its not an official stat

EDIT: would u disagree with that assessment? That QBs haven't made that priority when they face Osi after the year he had last year?

Mind you im not even an Osi fan in general, i've bashed him as much as anybody else so im not on any homer juice


I agree with you on hurries/pressures (not to mention QBs who hold the ball until the last second).

However I don't think Osi really got singled out by QBs until 2010 when he got all those FFs. Don't forget, he was benched in 2009 and after having missed 2008, dropped off most people's radar.

So QBs hurrying due to Osi's rep as a pass rusher really only came about this year.

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 03:19 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up. How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.


I wouldn't disagree with that. But keep in mind that barring the ridiculous 10 FF season, Osi has only averaged 1 more FF per year then Cole for his career.


Hence why I said the difference is very marginal (made up for the fact that Cole doesn't miss games).

If I were Reese with Osi arguing to get Cole's contract, I quickly point out that Cole is a much more consistant and complete DE then Osi is.

I do think Osi is closer to the Abraham contract (in comparison) then to the Cole contract. The issue of Abraham's contract is that Osi is 3 1/2 years younger.

okay i guess my argument is a little foggy...

let me clear it up

I do agree that if Osi is a Giant his money will be closer to what Abraham got....

BUT i don't think the Abraham contract is going to have anything to do with it negotiation wise. I think they are going to go off the Cole contract, money per year wise and work off of it.

I do not think Osi and his agent are negotiating using Abrahams contract as the template.

I guess i got deep into debate here and i strayed from what my original point is: Abrahams contract has nothing to do with Osi's - but Cole probably will. And again, that doesn't mean he'll be getting Cole's deal

Kruunch
03-22-2012, 03:20 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up.* How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.


I wouldn't disagree with that. But keep in mind that barring the ridiculous 10 FF season, Osi has only averaged 1 more FF per year then Cole for his career.


Hence why I said the difference is very marginal (made up for the fact that Cole doesn't miss games).

If I were Reese with Osi arguing to get Cole's contract, I quickly point out that Cole is a much more consistant and complete DE then Osi is.

I do think Osi is closer to the Abraham contract (in comparison) then to the Cole contract. The issue of Abraham's contract is that Osi is 3 1/2 years younger.

okay i guess my argument is a little foggy...

let me clear it up

I do agree that if Osi is a Giant his money will be closer to what Abraham got....

BUT i don't think the Abraham contract is going to have anything to do with it negotiation wise.* I think they are going to go off the Cole contract, money per year wise and work off of it.

I do not think Osi and his agent are negotiating using Abrahams contract as the template.

I guess i got deep into debate here and i strayed from what my original point is: Abrahams contract has nothing to do with Osi's - but Cole probably will. And again, that doesn't mean he'll be getting Cole's deal


I agree Osi (et al) probably wouldn't bring up Abraham's contract.

But Reese most assuredly will (especially as a counter to Cole's).

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 03:23 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up. How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.
And you call hurries/pressures subjective...

well they are... i'm just stating my opinion on a player whose games we all watched and sio we can talk about.

Have u seen every Philly game and kept an eye on Cole? There is a reason its not an official stat

EDIT: would u disagree with that assessment? That QBs haven't made that priority when they face Osi after the year he had last year?

Mind you im not even an Osi fan in general, i've bashed him as much as anybody else so im not on any homer juice


I agree with you on hurries/pressures (not to mention QBs who hold the ball until the last second).

However I don't think Osi really got singled out by QBs until 2010 when he got all those FFs. Don't forget, he was benched in 2009 and after having missed 2008, dropped off most people's radar.

So QBs hurrying due to Osi's rep as a pass rusher really only came about this year.

I agree... but in reference to 2009 and his benching...

I would use that against him when hes asking for money. He got paid good money, missed the year before and obviously wasn't healthy for 09. I think that should be used against him when it comes to him asking for top 5 DE money this past year, especially when he signed the contract he had now it was front loaded and he was still under his rookie deal - Giants paid him.

Before this season that was viable argument.

But now we're 2 seasons since then, his strip sack was a huge part in our minimal success last year, when he got healthy (with tuck getting healthy) our defense went into a dominate form and we won another superbowl.

I think the past two season have trumped his injury from 08 and probably carried over to 09. Again, I on't think he gets Cole money, but I think thats the template they use

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 03:26 PM
I'd say Cole and Osi are so close in terms of pass rushing ability as to make the difference negligible.

i think the strip sack give Osi a major step up. How many times have we seen QBs this year step up early in the pocket cuz they saw Osi out of the corner of their eye.... it may not count as a "hurry" or pressure, but its like you said the difference is in the fact that hes a play maker.


I wouldn't disagree with that. But keep in mind that barring the ridiculous 10 FF season, Osi has only averaged 1 more FF per year then Cole for his career.


Hence why I said the difference is very marginal (made up for the fact that Cole doesn't miss games).

If I were Reese with Osi arguing to get Cole's contract, I quickly point out that Cole is a much more consistant and complete DE then Osi is.

I do think Osi is closer to the Abraham contract (in comparison) then to the Cole contract. The issue of Abraham's contract is that Osi is 3 1/2 years younger.

okay i guess my argument is a little foggy...

let me clear it up

I do agree that if Osi is a Giant his money will be closer to what Abraham got....

BUT i don't think the Abraham contract is going to have anything to do with it negotiation wise. I think they are going to go off the Cole contract, money per year wise and work off of it.

I do not think Osi and his agent are negotiating using Abrahams contract as the template.

I guess i got deep into debate here and i strayed from what my original point is: Abrahams contract has nothing to do with Osi's - but Cole probably will. And again, that doesn't mean he'll be getting Cole's deal


I agree Osi (et al) probably wouldn't bring up Abraham's contract.

But Reese most assuredly will (especially as a counter to Cole's).

see i just disagree, i think it would be hard to get a deal done comparing Osi to Abraham at this point. You just came off a superbowl win in which his presence made a huge difference (i'd imagine we all could agree on that) and hes 3-4 years younger.... i just can't see Abraham even being brough up. Especially if u start going around the league, while cole got a nice deal - a case could be made that he took less to stay in philly

gmen0820
03-22-2012, 03:30 PM
Have u* seen every Philly game and kept an eye on Cole? No, but I when I watch a game, DL is the first thing I look at. So while I don't necessarily watch Cole and Cole only, I know for a fact that you don't watch Osi and Osi only.

So considering that I have seen a ton of Eagles games because they have the television rights in my area, I think it is fair to say that I've seen just as many Eagle and Trent Cole games as I have Giant and Osi Umenyiora games (where Cole and Umenyiora both play) over the past four years. I watch at least 12-14 Philly games a year.

My take on it is that Cole is more disruptive in both aspects of his position, and is not only a priority to defenses, but to the opposing offense as a whole. Osi is a third pass rusher, hard to prioritize that when you have JPP and Tuck as the key guys. So I think Osi is less of a priority to defenses than Cole, even as a pass rusher. But that is just my opinion on players I have seen play.

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 03:57 PM
Have u seen every Philly game and kept an eye on Cole? No, but I when I watch a game, DL is the first thing I look at. So while I don't necessarily watch Cole and Cole only, I know for a fact that you don't watch Osi and Osi only.

So considering that I have seen a ton of Eagles games because they have the television rights in my area, I think it is fair to say that I've seen just as many Eagle and Trent Cole games as I have Giant and Osi Umenyiora games (where Cole and Umenyiora both play) over the past four years. I watch at least 12-14 Philly games a year.

My take on it is that Cole is more disruptive in both aspects of his position, and is not only a priority to defenses, but to the opposing offense as a whole. Osi is a third pass rusher, hard to prioritize that when you have JPP and Tuck as the key guys. So I think Osi is less of a priority to defenses than Cole, even as a pass rusher. But that is just my opinion on players I have seen play.

im actually a loser and break down the giant games...

i watch them multiple times and do try to see as much as i can.

again nobody is disputing the differences between how they play the run.

Osi isn't the third pass rusher, hes our best pass rusher.

BlueSanta
03-22-2012, 04:09 PM
I agree Osi is more of an injury risk, nobody is debating that.

Umm yes someone was, and it was you with this VERY misleading and false stat:



Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks

That stat is nonsense and you KNOW it. You compared Trent's regular season stat against Osi's regular season AND playoff stats on top of having Osi's sack total artificially inflated(a convenient typo? or a lie?)

Beyond that those stats certainly imply that Osi has played at the same level of health as Cole, which you now(multiple posts later) say isnt in debate.....


I agree Osi is more of an injury risk, nobody is debating that.

Your tune has changed its seems

And this thread is about Osi's contract. Look at the title. Contracts are negotiated on every facet of a players ability, including run defense, sacks, snaps played, past inuries etc.

Again, it is fair to say Osi is a comparable passrusher WHEN HEALTHY. But thats is irrelevant and pointless to this thread because player health MATTERS in contract negotiations(again, comparing contracts is the topic of this thread.)

If Osi goes to management and asks for Cole type money, even for a shorter contract length but comparable per season rate, he will be laughed out of their offices.

You quoted false and misleading stats to try to make a point, it blew up in your face. Just let it go...

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 04:40 PM
lol as long as regular season stats are the only true determining factor to how good a player is.

Baffling.

Those stats were to show the pass rushing stats for two full years, not for injury. YOU May of misunderstood that, but that doesn't mean i was misleading at all.

Maybe YOU want to JUST compare the regular season stats because it would help your argument but that wouldn't be true to the debate which was who was a better pass rusher for the past two years.

Nobody ever said Osi wasn't more of an injury risk, maybe you should read what i say before you try and hold a conversation about it because it seems you don't know if your coming or going on this topic.

Thanks for telling me what the thread is about. The stats you keep quoting from me were from another debate about who is the better pass rusher: Osi or Cole. Had you actually read instead of just jumping in and talking out of your ***, you might of recognized that.

Osi a better pass rusher period. He wasn' too healthy this year and he had a better sack per game average. Oh wait, the playoffs don't count right? lol

Again, next time know what debate your jumping into before you comment becuase you def just made an *** of yourself

MattMeyerBud
03-22-2012, 04:45 PM
I agree Osi is more of an injury risk, nobody is debating that.

Umm yes someone was, and it was you with this VERY misleading and false stat:



Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks

That stat is nonsense and you KNOW it. You compared Trent's regular season stat against Osi's regular season AND playoff stats on top of having Osi's sack total artificially inflated(a convenient typo? or a lie?)

Beyond that those stats certainly imply that Osi has played at the same level of health as Cole, which you now(multiple posts later) say isnt in debate.....


I agree Osi is more of an injury risk, nobody is debating that.

Your tune has changed its seems

And this thread is about Osi's contract. Look at the title. Contracts are negotiated on every facet of a players ability, including run defense, sacks, snaps played, past inuries etc.

Again, it is fair to say Osi is a comparable passrusher WHEN HEALTHY. But thats is irrelevant and pointless to this thread because player health MATTERS in contract negotiations(again, comparing contracts is the topic of this thread.)

If Osi goes to management and asks for Cole type money, even for a shorter contract length but comparable per season rate, he will be laughed out of their offices.

You quoted false and misleading stats to try to make a point, it blew up in your face. Just let it go...








not a better pass rusher...


yes
he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass
rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison
wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there
play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar.
Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams
money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother




there ya go... next time read what i am replying to if ur going to chime in

http://www.the-nri.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/apu-nahasapeemapetilon-simpsons.jpg

BlueSanta
03-22-2012, 05:35 PM
I agree Osi is more of an injury risk, nobody is debating that.

Umm yes someone was, and it was you with this VERY misleading and false stat:



Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks

That stat is nonsense and you KNOW it. You compared Trent's regular season stat against Osi's regular season AND playoff stats on top of having Osi's sack total artificially inflated(a convenient typo? or a lie?)

Beyond that those stats certainly imply that Osi has played at the same level of health as Cole, which you now(multiple posts later) say isnt in debate.....


I agree Osi is more of an injury risk, nobody is debating that.

Your tune has changed its seems

And this thread is about Osi's contract. Look at the title. Contracts are negotiated on every facet of a players ability, including run defense, sacks, snaps played, past inuries etc.

Again, it is fair to say Osi is a comparable passrusher WHEN HEALTHY. But thats is irrelevant and pointless to this thread because player health MATTERS in contract negotiations(again, comparing contracts is the topic of this thread.)

If Osi goes to management and asks for Cole type money, even for a shorter contract length but comparable per season rate, he will be laughed out of their offices.

You quoted false and misleading stats to try to make a point, it blew up in your face. Just let it go...








not a better pass rusher...


yes
he is. Even if you base it just on sack numbers Cole is a better pass
rusher. But Cole consistently has more hits/hurries than Osi as well.

Cole is a bad comparison for Osi, Abraham is much better comparison
wise. Abraham is perhaps a slightly better pass rusher than Osi, there
play against the run is similar. Even size wise they are similar.
Abraham is 3 years older however, that is true.

But all this is meaningless, because Osi may want Mario Williams
money.

hurries are a subjective stat, hence why its not an official stat.

Osi's presence as a pass rusher is much more feared than trent coles.

Cole played

in 2011: 14 games, 11 sacks
in 2010: 16 games, 10 sacks

Osi:
in 2011: 14 games, 13.5 sacks
2010: 16 games 10.5 sacks


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother




there ya go... next time read what i am replying to if ur going to chime in

http://www.the-nri.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/apu-nahasapeemapetilon-simpsons.jpg


How does that even begin to touch anything I said?

You posted off topic since the topic is CONTRACT COMPARISONS and you posted false and misleading stats to boot to try to back up your opinion, which is certainly not true when the real career stats are used.

Then the real kicker is you putting this little gem in:


if ur going to retort with fun facts from PFF, don't bother

The irony is that your stats are wrong and misleading. But I guess you thought nobody would notice because you asked them not to use "fun facts" from PFF. How hypocritical of you.

You cant win any argument or discussion when your entire argument is based on false and misleading stats.


Thank you, come again.