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View Full Version : Kenny Phillips - an underrated stud (highlight video)



NYG4lifeNYK
04-02-2012, 02:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weMfd206_hQ

One of the best and also one of the most underrated safeties in the league...

Can the season get here fast enough?


How much you wanna bet that KP has at least 5-6 picks this season?

NYG4lifeNYK
04-02-2012, 02:22 PM
As someone mentioned in the comments, look at the footwork/hips at the 1:08 mark.

Kruunch
04-02-2012, 02:40 PM
Preaching to the choir. We all know that he's a great safety.

dayeh33
04-02-2012, 02:45 PM
He can only get better since he's still young.. Next season needs to be here already!!!

Gmen2005
04-02-2012, 02:59 PM
I love how well he attacks the ball, great video.

Redeyejedi
04-02-2012, 03:07 PM
I wonder if he gets resigned. I would be very worried giving him big money with that kind of knee condition

hadenough
04-02-2012, 03:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weMfd206_hQ

One of the best and also one of the most underrated safeties in the league...

Can the season get here fast enough?


How much you wanna bet that KP has at least 5-6 picks this season?
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He's as solid as they get. Unfortunately he basically lost 2 years....his injury year and the next year. So he was a bit behind in what people expected. This upcoming year will be as good as it gets for him. He'll be a few years away from that injury with a full offseason. Looking forward to a really nice year from him.</P>

nYg24
04-02-2012, 03:41 PM
He can only get better since he's still young.. Next season needs to be here already!!!


Yea but we'll probly lose him to free agency next offseason.

GMenNY21
04-02-2012, 03:41 PM
KP is BEAST! This season should be his Pro Bowl breakout year..

giantsfan420
04-02-2012, 03:54 PM
he's a beast and i've said so for some time.

he's awesome near the LOS but Fewell said he wanted to protect him somewhat until he's 100% so expect to see more of him causing havoc near the line.

its nice too that we have an answer for Calvin Johnson, one of those passes u could see CJ was thinking bout the shot about to come and i've never seen that from him.

awesome deep centerfield type safety with a ton of range while also a physical, downhill LOS attacker...

DownWitJPP
04-02-2012, 05:26 PM
awesome vid, he really is one of the top safety's in the game. I hope we can keep him after next season

Neverend
04-02-2012, 06:12 PM
He's as solid as they get.* Unfortunately he basically lost 2 years....his injury year and the next year.* So he was a bit behind in what people expected.*

I don't know about you, but he looked pretty damn good regardless of injury in that video. Only 2 plays was pre-microfracture surgery, everything else was after

FroZeNx31x
04-02-2012, 06:13 PM
Great Video --- Just reaffirms what i already think about KP

derekunion28
04-02-2012, 07:32 PM
great vid

Evo'Ed
04-02-2012, 09:29 PM
I had my reservations about KP after those injuries; he looked like he lost some speed and range.

IMO KP was looking to go for the big hit as opposed to playing the ball.

However, he got really solid towards the end of the year.


KP's definitely underrated as opposed to Rolle which IMO is a bit overrated.

nYg24
04-02-2012, 10:54 PM
I had my reservations about KP after those injuries; he looked like he lost some speed and range.

IMO KP was looking to go for the big hit as opposed to playing the ball.

However, he got really solid towards the end of the year.


KP's definitely underrated as opposed to Rolle which IMO is a bit overrated.

Lets not forget that Rolle hasn't played safety since he's been here.

NYG4ME
04-03-2012, 12:26 AM
Awesome vid!

Antwuan
04-03-2012, 03:04 AM
I have always like Kenny Phillips he is a Beast.

TheBookOfEli
04-03-2012, 03:31 AM
I just pray that Kenny Phillips can continue to stay healthy. He has a great world of talent.

burier
04-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Bunch of QB lowlights in that video but KP is solid.

Not exactly what we thought we were drafting which was an Ed Reed game changer type player but still very good and he could still make a leap.

slipknottin
04-03-2012, 02:42 PM
Not exactly what we thought we were drafting which was an Ed Reed game changer type player but still very good and he could still make a leap.

Who had more big plays last season, Ed Reed or KP?

HMMMM

And only the complete fools here thought the giants were drafting another Ed Reed. Arguably the best safety of all time.

burier
04-03-2012, 02:59 PM
Not exactly what we thought we were drafting which was an Ed Reed game changer type player but still very good and he could still make a leap.

Who had more big plays last season, Ed Reed or KP?

HMMMM

And only the complete fools here thought the giants were drafting another Ed Reed. Arguably the best safety of all time.

To answer your question I believe we'll need a definition on "big play"

not Ed Reed.

but

"Ed Reed GAME CHANGER.... TYPE"

Thats what we thought we were drafting so..Are we calling JR a fool now?

Kruunch
04-03-2012, 02:59 PM
Not exactly what we thought we were drafting which was an Ed Reed game changer type player but still very good and he could still make a leap.

And only the complete fools here thought the giants were drafting another Ed Reed.

Ayup.

slipknottin
04-03-2012, 05:28 PM
.Are we calling JR a fool now?

You find any quote by JR saying he drafted KP to be an Ed Reed type player. Then Ill call him a fool.

Until then, you are the fool.

Neverend
04-03-2012, 08:28 PM
Maybe KP can be an ed reed type player.

Thing is though, the giants don't use him that way. The ravens allow ed reed to freelance and use his instincts, KP is not given that freedom

JacksGiant76
04-03-2012, 08:45 PM
Yeah, I'm not as sold on KP as everyone else. Honestly, I barely remember him making any impact plays, maybe here or there but nothing really stood out. That's also not a bad thing you didn't hear his name as much as the Giants weren't beaten deep often and that could definitely be attributed to him play well in center field. Unfortunately there's not a stat that tracks that ( that I know of ) so it's hard to gauge. I did notice him coming in late to some big pass plays though so I don't know, I think he's just ok. He's not bad and he's not great, he does the job.

Honestly, I still think I have a little resentment still for that terrible job of tackling , or lack there of, on Brent Celek during that Philly disaster of a game in 2010 when we were up by 21 with 10 minutes to go. To me, that was the key play of the entire game. He makes that tackle, Philly still has to keep driving and take more time off the clock then Celek waltzing into the end zone in 7 seconds.

Neverend
04-03-2012, 08:59 PM
Yeah, I'm not as sold on KP as everyone else. Honestly, I barely remember him making any impact plays, maybe here or there but nothing really stood out. That's also not a bad thing you didn't hear his name as much as the Giants weren't beaten deep often and that could definitely be attributed to him play well in center field. Unfortunately there's not a stat that tracks that ( that I know of ) so it's hard to gauge. I did notice him coming in late to some big pass plays though so I don't know, I think he's just ok. He's not bad and he's not great, he does the job.

Honestly, I still think I have a little resentment still for that terrible job of tackling , or lack there of, on Brent Celek during that Philly disaster of a game in 2010 when we were up by 21 with 10 minutes to go. To me, that was the key play of the entire game. He makes that tackle, Philly still has to keep driving and take more time off the clock then Celek waltzing into the end zone in 7 seconds.


One mistake. He made another one against carolina, and rodgers fooled him with his eyes on a pass deep to jennings in that 45-17 loss against the packers. Otherwise, I have no memory of KP giving up the big play in 2010

Also he might make tackles downfield after big plays but it doesnt mean he gets beat. In zone coverage the person who makes the tackle likely isnt the person who made the mistake. Sometimes a linebacker doesn't get depth or recognize crossing routes behind him.

Hes a great safety with tremendous range. We don't know if he can make impact plays or not because of his playing style. He is not a freelancer like Polamalu or Reed.

bubblesmcgee
04-03-2012, 09:36 PM
hes a great tackler too. That tackle on d. Jackson on the reverse was incredible

burier
04-04-2012, 09:40 AM
yikes

burier
04-04-2012, 09:42 AM
.Are we calling JR a fool now?

You find any quote by JR saying he drafted KP to be an Ed Reed type player. Then Ill call him a fool.

Until then, you are the fool.

I'm no fool.

And I'll be civil with you just for the fact that winning flame fests around here has become boring.

So let me explain.

Jr doesn't actually have to say that he hoped for KP to be a game changer because it is implied by where he selected the man in the draft.

That's what everyone is looking to take with their first round draft choice. A GAME CHANGER big time player.

I assumed people here understood the basics of football and draft strategy.

perhaps you should purchase some sort of football starter kit, learn it like the back of your hand and then start calling people fools.

(You may also consider Hooked on Phonics to brush up on your reading comprehension.)

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 11:58 AM
Jr doesn't actually have to say that he hoped for KP to be a game changer because it is implied by where he selected the man in the draft.

Yes, every player drafted in the first round is meant to be Ed Reed.

How many "game changers" were there on defense in the NFL last season? I cant think of a single one.

So apparently all teams suck at drafting.

Or you are just a fool.

KP was drafted to replace Gibril Wilson. Not to be Ed Reed.


In any case, remember when last year Ed "game changer" Reed started all 16 games, managed 52 tackles, 8 pass breakups, 3 interceptions and 1 forced fumble?

Yea, that guy KP was just awful in comparison, in 15 games he only had 82 tackles, 11 pass breakups, 4 interceptions, and a forced fumble.

You get a huge argument fail, sir. Good day.

burier
04-04-2012, 12:17 PM
(^^^^^Classic I don't have a point so I'll misrepresnt the other guy's argument post)

You keep saying Ed Reed and I've tried to very politely explain to you that I NEVER SAID that KP was supposed to be Ed Reed.

I used the name Ed Reed as it was the first name to come to mind when I think of a GAME CHANGING safety.

So no every player in the first round of the draft isn't expected to be a HOFer but they are expect to be IMPACT game changing, probowl quality players.

JR has stated numerous times that we draft the best player available thuroughly debunking any suggestion that KP was drafted purely due to the loss of Gibril Wilson who was drafted in the FIFTH ROUND no less!

Congrats on comparing 2011 season Stats of a first round player entering his prime to a 10 year vet.

And Good job completely failing to recognize that what Ed ring brings to the table goes beyond stats. His reputation precedes him. Teams attempt to keep the ball as far away from him as possible but I'm guessing these are concepts a bit beyond your pay grade so I'll simplify:

I love KP but he's not in Ed Reed's class period...even today at Ed Reed's advanced age.

To further simplify. Based on his production since we drafted him he's proven to be a bit of a reach in the first round.

To be quite frank an "argument fail" from you is a compliment and I thank you for it.

When we agree let me know as that will indicate a time for me to be worried.

Neverend
04-04-2012, 12:21 PM
Based on his production since we've drafted him he's a reach?

Did you not see the damn video? He's a safety with great range, burst, and discipline. He doesn't get tested much deep, doesn't play near the line very much, and isn't given the freedom to freelance like an ed reed -- yet his production is still pretty freaking high

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 12:21 PM
KP isnt in Ed Reeds class?

OH THE HORROR!!!

JR CANT DRAFT!!!

You are insane if you ever had expectations that KP was going to be the second coming of perhaps the best safety ever to play in the league.

Some of us actually have realistic expectations of players that are drafted, and dont think everyone needs to be the best ever at their position

Is he a reach as a first round safety? Not at all
Is he a reach as the second coming of Ed Reed? Yes obviously.

That is where you are confused.

RagTime Blue
04-04-2012, 12:26 PM
There are some safeties who may very well be BPA when we draft in round one.

If JR goes that route, I wonder if it has more to do with Rolle's salary or KP's knee.

Or maybe BPA is BPA. . .plain and simple.

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 12:28 PM
There are some safeties who may very well be BPA when we draft in round one.

If JR goes that route, I wonder if it has more to do with Rolle's salary or KP's knee.

Or maybe BPA is BPA. . .plain and simple.


KP is a FA this season...

Rolle has a huge contract.

The giants use three safetys on the field constantly.

And there wouldnt be some safetys that are BPA in round 1. There is only one safety in the draft who is arguably a first rounder, Barron. Nobody else is close to a first round talent.

burier
04-04-2012, 12:33 PM
KP isnt in Ed Reeds class?

OH THE HORROR!!!

JR CANT DRAFT!!!

You are insane if you ever had expectations that KP was going to be the second coming of perhaps the best safety ever to play in the league.

Some of us actually have realistic expectations of players that are drafted, and dont think everyone needs to be the best ever at their position

Is he a reach as a first round safety? Not at all
Is he a reach as the second coming of Ed Reed? Yes obviously.

That is where you are confused.

I never had expectations that KP was going to be Ed Reed. YOU'RE THE ONE COMPARING THE TWO! Not me.

Please stop assigning that to me. You're the one who is arguing that KP is as good.

All I'm saying is KP is good but not quite as good as expected so far.

I also said he's young and could still make a leap.

I never said anything negative about JRs drafting either so again...please stop misrepresenting my position which I'll repeat. KP has played more like 2nd round talent SO FAR...that's by no stretch a negative comment on JRs drafing.

KP good player. Not quite as good as expected at this point in his career still could improve. Don't see why he can't improve.

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 12:36 PM
I never had expectations that KP was going to be Ed Reed. YOU'RE THE ONE COMPARING THE TWO! Not me.

Pretty sure you were the one who brought up Ed Reed as the player you expected KP to be like.

KP has played like a second rounder? What does a first round safety do thats different than a second round safety? I would LOVE to see you define this.

Or heres another question if thats too difficult. What first round safety have you seen drafted in the past, say 5 years, that is worth a first round pick? Or is everyone who is not ed Reed or Polamalu only worth a 2nd round pick?

And of course, the 32nd pick in the draft is an entire one pick away from the 2nd round. So seems taking a 2nd round player when you are a pick off is pretty damn good value anyway....

burier
04-04-2012, 12:45 PM
I never had expectations that KP was going to be Ed Reed. YOU'RE THE ONE COMPARING THE TWO! Not me.

Pretty sure you were the one who brought up Ed Reed as the player you expected KP to be like.

KP has played like a second rounder? What does a first round safety do thats different than a second round safety? I would love to see you define this.

I mentioned Ed Reed just to put a name to the term Game Changer. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your mind around. I never said..."KP was supposed to be as good as Ed Reed..or KP is supposed to be the next Ed Reed"

As far as the difference between 1st rounder and 2nd rounder I can't provide a definiton. I'm simply stating my opinion based on an eyeball test.

The fear factor. Are teams playing keep away from the player in question?

But lets look at this way.

T2 was taken in the 3rd round.

Corey Webster was taken in 2nd round.

Antrell Rolle was taken in the 1st round.

Understanding the position difference I'd say the KP as a player is closer to par with Corey Webster than Antrel Rolle.

He was taken at 31 and i think he was a good pick from a value perspective. I just think we were expecting slighltly more impact from the pick.

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 12:48 PM
The fear factor. Are teams playing keep away from the player in question?

Well teams dont throw deep with KP on the field, so I would say yes.


Understanding the position difference I'd say the KP as a player is closer to par with Corey Webster than Antrel Rolle.

Webster is a far better player than Rolle.

So you are saying KP is a better player than Rolle, and as good as Webster, but hes only a 2nd round talent because Webster was a 2nd round pick? And since Rolle was a first round pick, and KP is better, that KP should be a second round pick?

I dont understand at all.

I would still love to know what safety's youve seen that your "eyeball test" says are 1st round picks, apart from Reed and Polamalu. Or is every first round safety who isnt Reed or Polamalu not worth the 1st round pick?

burier
04-04-2012, 12:50 PM
The fear factor. Are teams playing keep away from the player in question?

Well teams dont throw deep with KP on the field, so I would say yes.


Understanding the position difference I'd say the KP as a player is closer to par with Corey Webster than Antrel Rolle.

Webster is a far better player than Rolle.

So you are saying KP is a better player than Rolle, and as good as Webster, but hes only a 2nd round talent because Webster was a 2nd round pick? And since Rolle was a first round pick, and KP is better, that KP should be a second round pick?

I dont understand at all.

First thing I'm saying is Rolle is a better player than Webster and I don't think its close.

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 12:52 PM
First thing I'm saying is Rolle is a better player than Webster and I don't think its close.

So your "eyeball test" is completely broken.

Ah, understood.

G-Men Surg.
04-04-2012, 12:57 PM
I love what Kenny is all about, hard worker, great attitude and a stud player. I just hope Reese can make it happen and gives him an extension.

burier
04-04-2012, 01:03 PM
First thing I'm saying is Rolle is a better player than Webster and I don't think its close.

So your "eyeball test" is completely broken.

Ah, understood.

Whatever dude.

Rolle as Giant plays linebacker, Corner and safety Vs Webster who plays corner.

Rolle has Webster beat on versatillity alone.

Kase-1
04-04-2012, 01:18 PM
First thing I'm saying is Rolle is a better player than Webster and I don't think its close.Rock n Rolle is one of my favorite players on the team but No.......He's not better than Webster

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 01:19 PM
Rolle has Webster beat on versatillity alone.

Rolle is average at everything he does, while Webster is a lock down CB.

Hmm, what do you think teams value more?

burier
04-04-2012, 01:37 PM
Rolle has Webster beat on versatillity alone.

Rolle is average at everything he does, while Webster is a lock down CB.

Hmm, what do you think teams value more?

Average? He's a probowl player. What are you even talking about?

And what the hell is a lockdown corner??

It can't be the same as a "shutdown corner" because Webster IS NOT a shutdown corner

So what is it? Webster is a perfectly decent Cornerback. Nothing more nothing less.

Kase-1
04-04-2012, 01:43 PM
Rolle has Webster beat on versatillity alone.

Rolle is average at everything he does, while Webster is a lock down CB.

Hmm, what do you think teams value more?

Average? He's a probowl player. What are you even talking about?

And what the hell is a lockdown corner??

It can't be the same as a "shutdown corner" because Webster IS NOT a shutdown corner

So what is it? Webster is a perfectly decent Cornerback. Nothing more nothing less.Webster is def in the top tier of CBs, he effectively shuts down the opposing teams #1 WR, not every single play or every single game, but for the most part he shuts the opposing teams #1 passing threat down usually with 1 on 1 coverage

burier
04-04-2012, 01:48 PM
Rolle has Webster beat on versatillity alone.

Rolle is average at everything he does, while Webster is a lock down CB.

Hmm, what do you think teams value more?

Average? He's a probowl player. What are you even talking about?

And what the hell is a lockdown corner??

It can't be the same as a "shutdown corner" because Webster IS NOT a shutdown corner

So what is it? Webster is a perfectly decent Cornerback. Nothing more nothing less.Webster is def in the top tier of CBs, he effectively shuts down the opposing teams #1 WR, not every single play or every single game, but for the most part he shuts the opposing teams #1 passing threat down usually with 1 on 1 coverage


Honestly for me to accuarately assess where Webster stands in the pantheon of Corners I'd need to do some research as I admittedly watch far more Giants football than any other team. I'd say he's definately in the top half of Corners in the league.

But seriously I wouldn't call webster a shutdown corner...I don't think anyone would if he was being honest.

I mean Miami basically picked on him this season.

Also he had a huge game against buffalo but that was due to some miserable passes by Fitz.

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 01:58 PM
Average? He's a probowl player. What are you even talking about?

Honestly, you should be embarrassed by the arguments you are using.

Kase-1
04-04-2012, 02:09 PM
Rolle has Webster beat on versatillity alone.

Rolle is average at everything he does, while Webster is a lock down CB.

Hmm, what do you think teams value more?

Average? He's a probowl player. What are you even talking about?

And what the hell is a lockdown corner??

It can't be the same as a "shutdown corner" because Webster IS NOT a shutdown corner

So what is it? Webster is a perfectly decent Cornerback. Nothing more nothing less.Webster is def in the top tier of CBs, he effectively shuts down the opposing teams #1 WR, not every single play or every single game, but for the most part he shuts the opposing teams #1 passing threat down usually with 1 on 1 coverage


Honestly for me to accuarately assess where Webster stands in the pantheon of Corners I'd need to do some research as I admittedly watch far more Giants football than any other team. I'd say he's definately in the top half of Corners in the league.

But seriously I wouldn't call webster a shutdown corner...I don't think anyone would if he was being honest.

I mean Miami basically picked on him this season.

Also he had a huge game against buffalo but that was due to some miserable passes by Fitz.No CB has a shutdown game every game, but as long as theyre regularly shutting down their opponents #1 WR then id say theyre a 'shutdown CB'

Off the top of my head id put Webby up there with
Revis
Asomugha
Woodson
Finnegan
Gamble (Car)
Leon Hall

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 02:12 PM
Lets not try to turn this into a debate about webster.

Im still waiting for the first round safetys that are not named Reed or Polamalu that you believe were worth a first round pick.

burier
04-04-2012, 03:42 PM
Lets not try to turn this into a debate about webster.

Im still waiting for the first round safetys that are not named Reed or Polamalu that you believe were worth a first round pick.

I don't understand why you're asking that of me?

Did I say there was another safety we should have taken instead? I merely said based on his play I think he looks like a second round pick. What does that have to do with naming any other safety?

You don't want the conversation to go to webster but you're now asking the conversation to go to a place of complete irrelevance.

if you're trying to say that KP is the third best safety in the NFL I think you're wrong.

lawl
04-04-2012, 03:59 PM
Lets not try to turn this into a debate about webster.

Im still waiting for the first round safetys that are not named Reed or Polamalu that you believe were worth a first round pick.

I don't understand why you're asking that of me?

Did I say there was another safety we should have taken instead? I merely said based on his play I think he looks like a second round pick. What does that have to do with naming any other safety?

You don't want the conversation to go to webster but you're now asking the conversation to go to a place of complete irrelevance.

if you're trying to say that KP is the third best safety in the NFL I think you're wrong.

How slow are you?

If you name safeties that you think have played at a first round level, and if kp is better than them then he too should be considered as such. However, you have stuck with your arbitrary distinction of "he looks like a second round pick."

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 04:00 PM
How slow are you?

If you name safeties that you think have played at a first round level, and if kp is better than them then he too should be considered as such. However, you have stuck with your arbitrary distinction of "he looks like a second round pick."

This.

If the only safetys in the entire NFL you believe are worth first round picks are Ed Reed and Polamalu, then that explains your entire argument.

burier
04-04-2012, 04:36 PM
Lets not try to turn this into a debate about webster.

Im still waiting for the first round safetys that are not named Reed or Polamalu that you believe were worth a first round pick.

I don't understand why you're asking that of me?

Did I say there was another safety we should have taken instead? I merely said based on his play I think he looks like a second round pick. What does that have to do with naming any other safety?

You don't want the conversation to go to webster but you're now asking the conversation to go to a place of complete irrelevance.

if you're trying to say that KP is the third best safety in the NFL I think you're wrong.

How slow are you?

If you name safeties that you think have played at a first round level, and if kp is better than them then he too should be considered as such. However, you have stuck with your arbitrary distinction of "he looks like a second round pick."

Right so of course..as per the usual Lawl feels the need to jump into an A and B conversation.

What level the player is playing at has nothing to do with where they're picked you math wiz. Guys get picked too early and too late all the time. In fact thats why there's a draft and the players aren't mathmatically asigned. With this understood why do I need to name safeties picked in the first round??????

I already stated that I dont think KP is a top 3 safety. Should I name every safety I think is better than Kenny Phillips?

FIIIIINE! It doesn't actually speak to my point but I'll play the dumb *** game. In no particular order but to say that KP I'd put at the bottom of this list.

Ed Reed

Troy polamalu

Nick Collins

Antoine Bethea

Roman Harper

Yeremiah Bell

Michael Griffin

Adrian Wilson

Antrel Rolle

(All of these guys SHOULD have gone in the first round in IMO if you look at their play in a vacume and don't consider the other details that may have effected thier draft postion, like team need or overral strength/weakness of the draft pool which could cause a first round talent to slide.)


I don't see how this is relevant to where KP was drafted. But whatever. I'd also add that KP was the best safety in his draft but that's not my point. (Thin draft for safties on the top end..to Slipknots cheaky point I think safety is definately one of those positions where you should really be looking for a once in a generation player if you're going to take him early in the first round)

Even if he was the best overall player in his draft and was rightly taken 1st overall I'd still say based on what I SEE he looks like what should go somewhere in the second round most years.

And because I know GMB members struggle to read and comprehend I'll save you the trouble of posting....

"But but but some of those guys aren't first round draft choices"

All I'm saying is that KP fallen slightly short of expectations of what was supposed to be a steal draft choice late in the first round. Kenny Phillips. I'm not talking about anyone else.


Oh wait...now I get it. You guys take this as an attack on JR who is now beyond reproach.

Again I say...Good pick of a good player.

And I really don't have much else to say on the topic since I'm now being asked to argue points I never made to begin with.

lawl
04-04-2012, 04:55 PM
Lets not try to turn this into a debate about webster.

Im still waiting for the first round safetys that are not named Reed or Polamalu that you believe were worth a first round pick.

I don't understand why you're asking that of me?

Did I say there was another safety we should have taken instead? I merely said based on his play I think he looks like a second round pick. What does that have to do with naming any other safety?

You don't want the conversation to go to webster but you're now asking the conversation to go to a place of complete irrelevance.

if you're trying to say that KP is the third best safety in the NFL I think you're wrong.

How slow are you?

If you name safeties that you think have played at a first round level, and if kp is better than them then he too should be considered as such. However, you have stuck with your arbitrary distinction of "he looks like a second round pick."

Right so of course..as per the usual Lawl feels the need to jump into an A and B conversation.

What level the player is playing at has nothing to do with where they're picked you math wiz. Guys get picked too early and too late all the time. In fact thats why there's a draft and the players aren't mathmatically asigned. With this understood why do I need to name safeties picked in the first round??????

I already stated that I dont think KP is a top 3 safety. Should I name every safety I think is better than Kenny Phillips?

FIIIIINE! It doesn't actually speak to my point but I'll play the dumb *** game. In no particular order but to say that KP I'd put at the bottom of this list.

Ed Reed

Troy polamalu

Nick Collins

Antoine Bethea

Roman Harper

Yeremiah Bell

Michael Griffin

Adrian Wilson

Antrel Rolle

(All of these guys SHOULD have gone in the first round in IMO if you look at thier play in a vacume and don't consider the other details that may have effected thier draft postion, like team need or overral strength/weakness of the draft pool which could cause a first round talent to slide.)


I don't see how this is relevant to where KP was drafted. But whatever. I'd also add that KP was the best safety in his draft but that's not my point. (Thin draft for safties on the top end)

Even if he was the best overall player in his draft and was rightly taken 1st overall I'd still say based on what I SEE he looks like what should go somewhere in the second round most years.

And because I know GMB members struggle to read and comprehend I'll save you the trouble of posting....

"But but but some of those guys aren't first round draft choices"

All I'm saying is that KP fallen slightly short of expectations of what was supposed to be a steal draft choice late in the first round. Kenny Phillips. I'm not talking about anyone else and anyone else.


Oh wait...now I get it. You guys take this as an attack on JR who is now beyond reproach.

Again I say...Good pick of a good player.

And I really don't have much else to say on the topic since I'm now being asked to argue points I never made to begin with.

Of coursewhere a player was drafted has nothing to do with how they are currently playing. The point is, if you named guys that are playing "at a first round level" like how you labeled kp as having played "at a second round level" and if these players labled as playing "at a first round level" are actually not as good as kp then that would mean that kp had indeed played "at a first round level" instead of the "second round level" that you have described him as.

by the way, bell is currently unemployed, he's REAL good

NYG4lifeNYK
04-04-2012, 06:38 PM
First thing I'm saying is <font size="3"><font color="#0000FF"><u>Rolle is a better player than Webster and I don't think its close.</u></font></font>

<font size="6">LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</font>

NYG4lifeNYK
04-04-2012, 06:41 PM
Rolle has Webster beat on versatillity alone.

Rolle is average at everything he does, while Webster is a lock down CB.

Hmm, what do you think teams value more?

Average? He's a probowl player. What are you even talking about?

And what the hell is a lockdown corner??

It can't be the same as a "shutdown corner" because Webster IS NOT a shutdown corner

So what is it? Webster is a perfectly decent Cornerback. Nothing more nothing less.



<font size="6">LOL</font>

NY4U2
04-04-2012, 07:13 PM
The plain truth is

Rolle is not a top 10 safety (was but fell off a bit, but way better than average, especially near the los )

Webster is good but not a top 10 CB (and definatly not considered a lockdown corner see D. Revis)

Phillips is a top 10 safety....

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 07:27 PM
Ed Reed

Troy polamalu

Nick Collins

Antoine Bethea

Roman Harper

Yeremiah Bell

Michael Griffin

Adrian Wilson

Antrel Rolle

Amazing I ask for the top safetys other than Reed and Polamalu and he starts with Reed and Polamalu.

Nick Collins career is over...

Harper? Bell? Griffin?

What did you do? Go through the probowl list of the past couple years? Actually that seems rather obvious thats what you did.

Now if KP makes a probowl, is he as good as those other players? Is that what your "eyeball test" consists of? Reading who made the probowl?

Because we know the probowl is an incredibly accurate way to judge player talent.

Neverend
04-04-2012, 07:42 PM
It's really hard to take anyone serious when they claim Rolle is a better player than Webster

burier
04-05-2012, 09:34 AM
Ed Reed

Troy polamalu

Nick Collins

Antoine Bethea

Roman Harper

Yeremiah Bell

Michael Griffin

Adrian Wilson

Antrel Rolle

Amazing I ask for the top safetys other than Reed and Polamalu and he starts with Reed and Polamalu.

Nick Collins career is over...

Harper? Bell? Griffin?

What did you do? Go through the probowl list of the past couple years? Actually that seems rather obvious thats what you did.

Now if KP makes a probowl, is he as good as those other players? Is that what your "eyeball test" consists of? Reading who made the probowl?

Because we know the probowl is an incredibly accurate way to judge player talent.

Naw I didn't go through the probowl list. If all those guys made the probowl great, They deserved it.

Also...The probowl selections are pretty legit for postions other than QB.

My eyeball test is my eyeball test. Its been pretty accurate over the years so say what you will I'll stick with it.

burier
04-05-2012, 09:41 AM
It's really hard to take anyone serious when they claim Rolle is a better player than Webster

I think Rolle is a better player. You're welcome to disagree but acting like I've made some far-fetched claim is childish and full of hate.

We're talking about a probowl caliber player who has actually been invited to the probowl. A player who the Giants ask alot of Vs Corey Webster who played quite poorly his first two years in the league. Improved alot but still isn't any kind of shutdown corner.

All of our Dlineman are great. All of our DBs are great probowl quality players with the exception of Rolle apparently and all of our Linebackers are fine yet somehow our defense ranked near the bottom of the league.

Must be coaching.

Oh wait. No. Fewell is a great Dcoordinator too.

Must be the machines.

burier
04-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Lets not try to turn this into a debate about webster.

Im still waiting for the first round safetys that are not named Reed or Polamalu that you believe were worth a first round pick.

I don't understand why you're asking that of me?

Did I say there was another safety we should have taken instead? I merely said based on his play I think he looks like a second round pick. What does that have to do with naming any other safety?

You don't want the conversation to go to webster but you're now asking the conversation to go to a place of complete irrelevance.

if you're trying to say that KP is the third best safety in the NFL I think you're wrong.

How slow are you?

If you name safeties that you think have played at a first round level, and if kp is better than them then he too should be considered as such. However, you have stuck with your arbitrary distinction of "he looks like a second round pick."

Right so of course..as per the usual Lawl feels the need to jump into an A and B conversation.

What level the player is playing at has nothing to do with where they're picked you math wiz. Guys get picked too early and too late all the time. In fact thats why there's a draft and the players aren't mathmatically asigned. With this understood why do I need to name safeties picked in the first round??????

I already stated that I dont think KP is a top 3 safety. Should I name every safety I think is better than Kenny Phillips?

FIIIIINE! It doesn't actually speak to my point but I'll play the dumb *** game. In no particular order but to say that KP I'd put at the bottom of this list.

Ed Reed

Troy polamalu

Nick Collins

Antoine Bethea

Roman Harper

Yeremiah Bell

Michael Griffin

Adrian Wilson

Antrel Rolle

(All of these guys SHOULD have gone in the first round in IMO if you look at thier play in a vacume and don't consider the other details that may have effected thier draft postion, like team need or overral strength/weakness of the draft pool which could cause a first round talent to slide.)


I don't see how this is relevant to where KP was drafted. But whatever. I'd also add that KP was the best safety in his draft but that's not my point. (Thin draft for safties on the top end)

Even if he was the best overall player in his draft and was rightly taken 1st overall I'd still say based on what I SEE he looks like what should go somewhere in the second round most years.

And because I know GMB members struggle to read and comprehend I'll save you the trouble of posting....

"But but but some of those guys aren't first round draft choices"

All I'm saying is that KP fallen slightly short of expectations of what was supposed to be a steal draft choice late in the first round. Kenny Phillips. I'm not talking about anyone else and anyone else.


Oh wait...now I get it. You guys take this as an attack on JR who is now beyond reproach.

Again I say...Good pick of a good player.

And I really don't have much else to say on the topic since I'm now being asked to argue points I never made to begin with.

Of coursewhere a player was drafted has nothing to do with how they are currently playing. The point is, if you named guys that are playing "at a first round level" like how you labeled kp as having played "at a second round level" and if these players labled as playing "at a first round level" are actually not as good as kp then that would mean that kp had indeed played "at a first round level" instead of the "second round level" that you have described him as.

by the way, bell is currently unemployed, he's REAL good

So I listed guys who are/were recently playing at a first round level.

There's no where to go from here. You'll say KP is better than those guys and I'll disagree.

I'm cool with that. Are you?

Neverend
04-05-2012, 09:47 AM
It's really hard to take anyone serious when they claim Rolle is a better player than Webster

I think Rolle is a better player. You're welcome to disagree but acting like I've made some far-fetched claim is childish and full of hate.

We're talking about a probowl caliber player who has actually been invited to the probowl. A player who the Giants ask alot of Vs Corey Webster who played quite poorly his first two years in the league. Improved alot but still isn't any kind of shutdown corner.

All of our Dlineman are great. All of our DBs are great probowl quality players with the exception of Rolle apparently and all of our Linebackers are fine yet somehow our defense ranked near the bottom of the league.

Must be coaching.

Oh wait. No. Fewell is a great Dcoordinator too.

Must be the machines.

I don't think the pro bowl is good enough to back up and support your claim. You could make the point getting qualified for the pro bowl could be easily based on just popularity alone. I don't think it gives you enough credibility. Shaun O'Hara was elected to the pro bowl in 2010 despite the fact that he started, what, 4 games that year?

I think it would be more accurate to determine whether or not Rolle/Webster is better by actually paying attention to their play on the football field, not postseason exhibition games. And on the field, in recent years, Webster has been a lot less of a liability in the defense than Rolle has.

I'd say the only case you can make is that Rolle is a better run defender than Webster. That's about it.

burier
04-05-2012, 10:00 AM
It's really hard to take anyone serious when they claim Rolle is a better player than Webster

I think Rolle is a better player. You're welcome to disagree but acting like I've made some far-fetched claim is childish and full of hate.

We're talking about a probowl caliber player who has actually been invited to the probowl. A player who the Giants ask alot of Vs Corey Webster who played quite poorly his first two years in the league. Improved alot but still isn't any kind of shutdown corner.

All of our Dlineman are great. All of our DBs are great probowl quality players with the exception of Rolle apparently and all of our Linebackers are fine yet somehow our defense ranked near the bottom of the league.

Must be coaching.

Oh wait. No. Fewell is a great Dcoordinator too.

Must be the machines.

I don't think the pro bowl is good enough to back up and support your claim. You could make the point getting qualified for the pro bowl could be easily based on just popularity alone. I don't think it gives you enough credibility. Shaun O'Hara was elected to the pro bowl in 2010 despite the fact that he started, what, 4 games that year?

I think it would be more accurate to determine whether or not Rolle/Webster is better by actually paying attention to their play on the football field, not postseason exhibition games. And on the field, in recent years, Webster has been a lot less of a liability in the defense than Rolle has.

I'd say the only case you can make is that Rolle is a better run defender than Webster. That's about it.

First of all I'm talking about on the field play. I point to a probowl as supporting evidence.

We get way to carried away with this popularity contest stuff.

Antrell Rolle played in Arizona. He's gained poplularity since becoming a Giant and hasn't been to the probowl since.

When he was invited to the probowl it was based purely on his play. I think a sweeping dismissal of probowl selections as evidence of a players worth is way off base.

Shaun Ohara got in on his name and because of past performances. Sure in that case it was a popularity thing...but that isn't always the case.

I don't understand how you can call a guy who plays Saftey, nickle corner and linebacker for your team a liabilty. I call that level of versatility an asset.

I'm not really sure why people have a problem with Rolle? Is it that we didn't draft the guy?

Neverend
04-05-2012, 10:06 AM
Sure, he's "versatile" but that doesn't mean he did it at a high level capable enough of saying he is better than Webster. He played linebacker maybe one game against new orleans, and was bad in that area. He was highly inconsistent as the nickel LB unable to understand the leverages, concepts, and splits. Also struggled a ton in zone coverage and being extremely reactive.

Hes a great, physical run defender that sticks his nose in the run* game. But an inconsistent safety in coverage that can take really bad angles at times (look here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAAIGlyBaR8) as seen in that video.

Webster, putting his early career struggles aside, has been rock solid for the Giants. In 08 under spags when he was usually used primarily in press-man concepts, he was as dominant as any corner in football that year. He is still very good today. Rarely do you see him get beat over the top or struggle like Rolle has, save for maybe one game against green bay in 2010

burier
04-05-2012, 10:19 AM
Sure, he's "versatile" but that doesn't mean he did it at a high level capable enough of saying he is better than Webster. He played linebacker maybe one game against new orleans, and was bad in that area. He was highly inconsistent as the nickel LB unable to understand the leverages, concepts, and splits. Also struggled a ton in zone coverage and being extremely reactive.

Hes a great, physical run defender that sticks his nose in the run* game. But an inconsistent safety in coverage that can take really bad angles at times (look here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAAIGlyBaR8) as seen in that video.

Webster, putting his early career struggles aside, has been rock solid for the Giants. In 08 under spags when he was usually used primarily in press-man concepts, he was as dominant as any corner in football that year. He is still very good today. Rarely do you see him get beat over the top or struggle like Rolle has, save for maybe one game against green bay in 2010

Id say considering what we ask of the man he did fine. He may not have been great but the fact that he was able fill in where needed shouldn't be understated. I'm still waiting to see what he can do when he just play his natural position.

Also we're exagerating Webster's play a bit.

This season against Buffalo he actually got rewarded for getting beat over the top because Fitz underthrew the ball and they landed in Webster's lap for ints.

In the first half of the Miami game he looked quite bad.

And if we're taking about bad angles....I believe also in the Miami game Webster took one of the craziest/worst angles I've seen in a longtime in attempt to make a play against the run.

Webster is our best corner and so he more often than not gets to cover the other teams best WR (Props for that) but when there's a serious threat IE Calvin Johnson/Fitz etc...he get tons of help like every other run of the mill corner. I think he's a good player but he's being romantisized a bit here.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 10:28 AM
Fine. There's nothing wrong with thinking Webster is slightly overrated by giants fans, but lets not go out on a limb and say Antrel Rolle is better than Webster though.

I can list and pin point a lot of Rolle's terrible plays as a Giant in recent years as well. It'd be a lot longer than Webster's.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 10:53 AM
I cant believe anyone is seriously using the probowl as the way of defining how good a player is.

And Rolle did make and attend the probowl as a giant in 2010.

burier
04-05-2012, 11:01 AM
Fine. There's nothing wrong with thinking Webster is slightly overrated by giants fans, but lets not go out on a limb and say Antrel Rolle is better than Webster though.

I can list and pin point a lot of Rolle's terrible plays as a Giant in recent years as well. It'd be a lot longer than Webster's.

Well thats the point. I don't think I'm on a limb.

I don't understand how you can be so eager to point out rolle's flaws when he does so much for the team...things that Webster isn't asked to do.

Of course he's gonna make a mistake when you're asking him to play out of position.

What's Webster's excuse?

And I'd ask again...why were we so bad defensively most of the year if we have nothing but probowl players on defense?

And I'm also being told that Webster can't play Zone coverage???

So he can't play the run and he can't play zone...what he can do is keep middle-class recievers in check.

On the other hand. I'm seeing Rolle flying around..hitting people. Intercepting balls and seriously impacting the defense.

I feel like there's a legit argument to be made for Webster being our best DB...and I actually think you've made it. I simply disagree.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 11:05 AM
On the other hand. I'm seeing Rolle flying around..hitting people. Intercepting balls and seriously impacting the defense.

You see Rolle flying around intercepting the ball? 3 times in 2 seasons? Yea remarkable.

But KP never gets near the ball, Im sure.

burier
04-05-2012, 11:14 AM
On the other hand. I'm seeing Rolle flying around..hitting people. Intercepting balls and seriously impacting the defense.

You see Rolle flying around intercepting the ball? 3 times in 2 seasons? Yea remarkable.

But KP never gets near the ball, Im sure.

Guy, KP's highlight reel is the topic of this thread. He's clearly a good player.

The sad thing is this tactic of blatantly misrepresenting my position will work with 2/3 of this message board.

And I better go check the stats again. I could have sworn Rolle had more than 3 tackles in two seasons.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 11:15 AM
Guy, KP's highlight reel is the topic of this thread. He's clearly a good player.

Hes just clearly not worth where he was drafted, and instead should have been drafted 1 pick later.

Then he would be a better player.

burier
04-05-2012, 11:18 AM
Guy, KP's highlight reel is the topic of this thread. He's clearly a good player.

Hes just clearly not worth where he was drafted, and instead should have been drafted 1 pick later.

Then he would be a better player.

What you're saying is insane.

I've already said he was a good value pick. Has so far played like a late 1st to 2nd round pick but the feeling was that he actually fell to us at 31 and would prove to be a guy that should have gone earlier. He may still prove that notion true he just hasn't yet as far as I'm concerned.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 11:20 AM
Has so far played like a late 1st to 2nd round pick but the feeling was that he actually fell to us at 31 and would prove to be a guy that should have gone earlier.

So now the issue is that while he is as good as he should be, hes not even better than he should be?

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:07 PM
Guy, KP's highlight reel is the topic of this thread. He's clearly a good player.

Hes just clearly not worth where he was drafted, and instead should have been drafted 1 pick later.

Then he would be a better player.

What you're saying is insane.

I've already said he was a good value pick. Has so far played like a late 1st to 2nd round pick but the feeling was that he actually fell to us at 31 and would prove to be a guy that should have gone earlier. He may still prove that notion true he just hasn't yet as far as I'm concerned.

wtf? r people drinking crazy water? KP played among the best Safeties in the league last season. He stood out and displayed crazy range, great tackling form and power, and excellent pass defense....what are u even trying to say??? oh i dont even care i dont want to try deciphering the next crazy line of reasoning u come up with.

edit- u do realize KP had an injury that can take longer than 2 yrs to completely recover from right? his rookie season, KP flashed play of elite safety. got injured, after a 2 int game vs dallas, and worked to get back to his level of play, which he displayed last season...in fact, he was still protected somewhat by where Fewell had him play and what was asked of him. still, even with the safeguarded role asked of him, he absolutely killed it....i'd bet anything any team would sign up a 1rst round pick for KP's play last season

burier
04-05-2012, 12:27 PM
Has so far played like a late 1st to 2nd round pick but the feeling was that he actually fell to us at 31 and would prove to be a guy that should have gone earlier.

So now the issue is that while he is as good as he should be, hes not even better than he should be?

The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:29 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:37 PM
am i the only one who thinks KP WAS an Ed Reed type S last season? he covered a ton of ground, had a bunch of pass defenses, a bunch of ints, some FF's, TFL...the guy played even better than most expected bc his scout profile out of college was that he'd never be a game changing type of S, just a solid S...

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:38 PM
am i the only one who thinks KP WAS an Ed Reed type S last season? he covered a ton of ground, had a bunch of pass defenses, a bunch of ints, some FF's, TFL...the guy played even better than most expected bc his scout profile out of college was that he'd never be a game changing type of S, just a solid S...

Ive made the same argument. KP had a better year than Reed and Polamalu combined.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:45 PM
am i the only one who thinks KP WAS an Ed Reed type S last season? he covered a ton of ground, had a bunch of pass defenses, a bunch of ints, some FF's, TFL...the guy played even better than most expected bc his scout profile out of college was that he'd never be a game changing type of S, just a solid S...

Ive made the same argument. KP had a better year than Reed and Polamalu combined.

i thought it was blatantly obvious...and he did so in a safeguarded role...i cant wait for next season when we see him at the LOS more. Fewell said he wanted him playing that centerfield role to try and shield him from aggravating his injury and to let him get completely up to speed and return to his form.

Of course KP isnt going to look as good as he did last season coming off of microfracture surgery. takes 2 yrs to recover from that. anyone judging him and claiming he didnt warrant his draft pick based on the season he was returning to form just doesnt quite get it i guess. KP was EVERYWHERE last season, even when the secondary was looking like ****, KP was still beasting...

i cant even recall him getting beat on a deep route for a TD except for the V.Davis SF playoff game and even then that seemed to be more of a miscommunication than anything else

burier
04-05-2012, 12:49 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

I have no delusions when it comes to the probowl.

Players are selected to the probowl based on play. Even in cases where a guy gets selected to the probowl when he actually had a down year at somepoint recently he MUST HAVE put it on the field to gain the so called popularity you want to harp on. Therefore no matter how you slice it a probowl selection does in deed speak to a player performing at a high level. In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.

So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.

My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player. And that's not my expectation...that's everyone's expectation accept for people who change there expectations all the time to suit their homerism.

You're misrepresenting my postions and begging for help from other posters (Most everyone does that when dealing with The Burier so don't feel bad) but there is no help to be gained here. If you thought we were drafing a Saftey who can make plays but can also dissapear then fine. Good for you. Low expectations are a common life strategy...it allows you to consistently avoid dissapointment.

I just have higher standars is all.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:54 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

I have no delusions when it comes to the probowl.

Players are selected to the probowl based on play. Even in cases where a guy gets selected to the probowl when he actually had a down year at somepoint recently he MUST HAVE put it on the field to gain the so called popularity you want to harp on. Therefore no matter how you slice it a probowl selection does in deed speak to a player performing at a high level. In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.

So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.

My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player. And that's not my expectation...that's everyone's expectation accept for people who change there expectations all the time to suit their homerism.

You're misrepresenting my postions and begging for help from other posters (Most everyone does that when dealing with The Burier so don't feel bad) but there is no help to be gained here. If you thought we were drafing a Saftey who can make plays but can also dissapear then fine. Good for you. Low expectations are a common life strategy...it allows you to consistently avoid dissapointment.

I just have higher standars is all.

fluoridated water is destroying minds...O'Hara made the probowl the season he was cut and played in 4 games...using the pro bowl, where FANS vote players in, doesnt help ur argument at all...u do realize Roy Williams was a pro bowl S right???

edit-anyone else who reads this, dont stop after reading buriers first paragraph of his last post as i did, u'll miss out on some serious laughs...

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:56 PM
Players are selected to the probowl based on play.
If they were, then fans would not get votes.


In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.
Of course not, but many are. McKenzie was perhaps the best RT in the league for 4 or 5 seasons in a row, never made a probowl. (he had a truly horrible year this year). Diehl was never anywhere near a top LT in the league. Yet Diehl made a probowl and McKenzie didnt.


So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.
It is an accolade, but that doesnt mean it is accurate, or always correct, or a way to tell how good a player is or isnt.


My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player.

So if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, what would your expectations be?

And I still completely disagree that KP isnt a bigtime player. I would argue he was at least the second best, arguably the best, player in the giants secondary.


And I dont need nor have i asked for any help from anyone else. I can do perfectly fine on my own. That your arguments are ridiculous enough that others feel compelled to step in, well, that is your problem.

gmen0820
04-05-2012, 12:59 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

I have no delusions when it comes to the probowl.

Players are selected to the probowl based on play. Even in cases where a guy gets selected to the probowl when he actually had a down year at somepoint recently he MUST HAVE put it on the field to gain the so called popularity you want to harp on. Therefore no matter how you slice it a probowl selection does in deed speak to a player performing at a high level. In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.

So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.

My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player. And that's not my expectation...that's everyone's expectation accept for people who change there expectations all the time to suit their homerism.

You're misrepresenting my postions and begging for help from other posters (Most everyone does that when dealing with The Burier so don't feel bad) but there is no help to be gained here. If you thought we were drafing a Saftey who can make plays but can also dissapear then fine. Good for you. Low expectations are a common life strategy...it allows you to consistently avoid dissapointment.

I just have higher standars is all.

fluoridated water is destroying minds...O'Hara made the probowl the season he was cut and played in 4 games...using the pro bowl, where FANS vote players in, doesnt help ur argument at all...u do realize Roy Williams was a pro bowl S right???

edit-anyone else who reads this, dont stop after reading buriers first paragraph of his last post as i did, u'll miss out on some serious laughs...Pro-Bowl change of heart? [;)]

burier
04-05-2012, 01:01 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

I have no delusions when it comes to the probowl.

Players are selected to the probowl based on play. Even in cases where a guy gets selected to the probowl when he actually had a down year at somepoint recently he MUST HAVE put it on the field to gain the so called popularity you want to harp on. Therefore no matter how you slice it a probowl selection does in deed speak to a player performing at a high level. In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.

So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.

My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player. And that's not my expectation...that's everyone's expectation accept for people who change there expectations all the time to suit their homerism.

You're misrepresenting my postions and begging for help from other posters (Most everyone does that when dealing with The Burier so don't feel bad) but there is no help to be gained here. If you thought we were drafing a Saftey who can make plays but can also dissapear then fine. Good for you. Low expectations are a common life strategy...it allows you to consistently avoid dissapointment.

I just have higher standars is all.

fluoridated water is destroying minds...O'Hara made the probowl the season he was cut and played in 4 games...using the pro bowl, where FANS vote players in, doesnt help ur argument at all...u do realize Roy Williams was a pro bowl S right???

edit-anyone else who reads this, dont stop after reading buriers first paragraph of his last post, u'll miss out on some serious laughs...

(Against my better judgement)

Welcome to the conversation. We've already addressed the Shaun O'hara situation but I'll review.

Shaun O'Hara got voted in on a year he shoulnd't have been voted in due to his name.

How did he get the name? Well he had previously played at prowbowl level. So you see even though O'Hara may not have deserved to go that particular season...the fact that he played 4 games and was still voted in does speak to the quality of player he is/was.

Please try your best to keep up.

And if you want to argue that Roy Williams never was a good player I'll have to ask you leave the room. The remedial Eli/Cruz/KP Homer class is down the hall.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:03 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

I have no delusions when it comes to the probowl.

Players are selected to the probowl based on play. Even in cases where a guy gets selected to the probowl when he actually had a down year at somepoint recently he MUST HAVE put it on the field to gain the so called popularity you want to harp on. Therefore no matter how you slice it a probowl selection does in deed speak to a player performing at a high level. In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.

So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.

My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player. And that's not my expectation...that's everyone's expectation accept for people who change there expectations all the time to suit their homerism.

You're misrepresenting my postions and begging for help from other posters (Most everyone does that when dealing with The Burier so don't feel bad) but there is no help to be gained here. If you thought we were drafing a Saftey who can make plays but can also dissapear then fine. Good for you. Low expectations are a common life strategy...it allows you to consistently avoid dissapointment.

I just have higher standars is all.

fluoridated water is destroying minds...O'Hara made the probowl the season he was cut and played in 4 games...using the pro bowl, where FANS vote players in, doesnt help ur argument at all...u do realize Roy Williams was a pro bowl S right???

edit-anyone else who reads this, dont stop after reading buriers first paragraph of his last post as i did, u'll miss out on some serious laughs...Pro-Bowl change of heart? [;)]

dammit!!! lol. i feel kinda stupid knowing i probably came off like the Burier when conversing with you in the past...well hopefully not that badly

edit-ok, whew, at least i never came off that stupid...buriers last post is some funny ****

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:04 PM
How did he get the name? Well he had previously played at prowbowl level. .

No he didnt. The reason he went to the probowl was because he was the center of the team with the best running game. He never played at a probowl level, he was never one of the best Centers in the league.

Diehl went because he was the LT of the team with the best running game. Diehl was never one of the best LTs in the league

But the three best players on the line, Snee, McKenzie, and Seubert, only Snee has ever made a probowl.

The problem with the probowl is that at a lot of positions its very hard for fans (and probably players quite often) to evaluate play. OL, CB, Safety are notoriously hard to judge.

gmen0820
04-05-2012, 01:05 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

I have no delusions when it comes to the probowl.

Players are selected to the probowl based on play. Even in cases where a guy gets selected to the probowl when he actually had a down year at somepoint recently he MUST HAVE put it on the field to gain the so called popularity you want to harp on. Therefore no matter how you slice it a probowl selection does in deed speak to a player performing at a high level. In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.

So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.

My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player. And that's not my expectation...that's everyone's expectation accept for people who change there expectations all the time to suit their homerism.

You're misrepresenting my postions and begging for help from other posters (Most everyone does that when dealing with The Burier so don't feel bad) but there is no help to be gained here. If you thought we were drafing a Saftey who can make plays but can also dissapear then fine. Good for you. Low expectations are a common life strategy...it allows you to consistently avoid dissapointment.

I just have higher standars is all.

fluoridated water is destroying minds...O'Hara made the probowl the season he was cut and played in 4 games...using the pro bowl, where FANS vote players in, doesnt help ur argument at all...u do realize Roy Williams was a pro bowl S right???

edit-anyone else who reads this, dont stop after reading buriers first paragraph of his last post as i did, u'll miss out on some serious laughs...Pro-Bowl change of heart? [;)]

dammit!!! lol. i feel kinda stupid knowing i probably came off like the Burier when conversing with you in the past...well hopefully not that badlyLol "The Burier". Good stuff haha

It's cool though, you love you some Giants football. Can't fault that.

burier
04-05-2012, 01:20 PM
Players are selected to the probowl based on play.
If they were, then fans would not get votes.


In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.
Of course not, but many are. McKenzie was perhaps the best RT in the league for 4 or 5 seasons in a row, never made a probowl. (he had a truly horrible year this year). Diehl was never anywhere near a top LT in the league. Yet Diehl made a probowl and McKenzie didnt.


So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.
It is an accolade, but that doesnt mean it is accurate, or always correct, or a way to tell how good a player is or isnt.


My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player.

So if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, what would your expectations be?

And I still completely disagree that KP isnt a bigtime player. I would argue he was at least the second best, arguably the best, player in the giants secondary.


And I dont need nor have i asked for any help from anyone else. I can do perfectly fine on my own. That your arguments are ridiculous enough that others feel compelled to step in, well, that is your problem.

1) Oh...So fans can't analyse play? Problably should let the Mods know..this message board is pointless.

2) You see you're missing the point...I never said That KP sucks because he never went to the probowl. Had he made the probowl you could use that to backup your love for him. Some guys that should go get snubbed (Said this already) Hell KP maybe deserved to go this year (Stats). But on the flip side...the fact that sometimes a player gets snubbed doesn't mean that when a player makes it you get to call BS. I'm sure some people whio deserve to go to Harvard don't get in. Should the people who do get in not be proud? Does this dimminish the prestige of Harvard?

3) I never said it was 100% accurate. But if I say a player is good I certainly can use it to support my claim. Crappy players don't get invited period. Name the top 5 guys at any position and I bet they all have probowls under their belt unless they're very young and early in their career.

4) You're not following me here. The expectations for KP were set PRIOR to draft day. Its not where he was selected that sets his expectation level. Its his play at the college leve that set it. Once the expectation level is set the experts create a "projection"

Based on what I know about KP's college career he could have fallen all the way to the third round and I'd still expect a big time player. Where he was actually drafted isn't the crux of the discussion.

As for the rest of it...I think KP probably was the Second best player in our secondary so we can agree on that at least. Right now I see a player who can make big time player...but he's not yet what I'd call a big time player.

As far as your pleads for help...Whatever.

I'll just say that you called me a fool and now you're calling me ridiculous.

If I'm so ridiculously foolish just keep it moving. We don't actually have to discuss anything with eachother.

burier
04-05-2012, 01:24 PM
How did he get the name? Well he had previously played at prowbowl level. .

No he didnt. The reason he went to the probowl was because he was the center of the team with the best running game. He never played at a probowl level, he was never one of the best Centers in the league.

Diehl went because he was the LT of the team with the best running game. Diehl was never one of the best LTs in the league

But the three best players on the line, Snee, McKenzie, and Seubert, only Snee has ever made a probowl.

The problem with the probowl is that at a lot of positions its very hard for fans (and probably players quite often) to evaluate play. OL, CB, Safety are notoriously hard to judge.

Right off the bat you contradict yourself.

Tell me how the center wasn't a probowl center when he anchored the best run game in the league AND kept the QB absolutely clean all year.

Are you aware of how key the center is in the run and pass game??????

burier
04-05-2012, 01:26 PM
The issue is that he's not as good as we he was expected to be.

I'm sorry this is so confusing for you.

Of course that makes sense when your expectations were he be an "Ed Reed type player"


You are under two different delusions here.

The first is that making or not making a probowl is indication of play. If KP had the exact same season again that he just had, but instead made the probowl, would you think higher or lower of him?

The second is this expectation thing, you feel as though every safety drafted in the first round should be an "ed reed type" game changing safety, so I wonder if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, would you no longer have that first round expectation of him, then believe that he in fact has performed better than his draft position.

I have no delusions when it comes to the probowl.

Players are selected to the probowl based on play. Even in cases where a guy gets selected to the probowl when he actually had a down year at somepoint recently he MUST HAVE put it on the field to gain the so called popularity you want to harp on. Therefore no matter how you slice it a probowl selection does in deed speak to a player performing at a high level. In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.

So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.

My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player. And that's not my expectation...that's everyone's expectation accept for people who change there expectations all the time to suit their homerism.

You're misrepresenting my postions and begging for help from other posters (Most everyone does that when dealing with The Burier so don't feel bad) but there is no help to be gained here. If you thought we were drafing a Saftey who can make plays but can also dissapear then fine. Good for you. Low expectations are a common life strategy...it allows you to consistently avoid dissapointment.

I just have higher standars is all.

fluoridated water is destroying minds...O'Hara made the probowl the season he was cut and played in 4 games...using the pro bowl, where FANS vote players in, doesnt help ur argument at all...u do realize Roy Williams was a pro bowl S right???

edit-anyone else who reads this, dont stop after reading buriers first paragraph of his last post as i did, u'll miss out on some serious laughs...Pro-Bowl change of heart? [;)]

dammit!!! lol. i feel kinda stupid knowing i probably came off like the Burier when conversing with you in the past...well hopefully not that badly

edit-ok, whew, at least i never came off that stupid...buriers last post is some funny ****

You could never come off like me and you should feel stupid.

Now please go find Krunch so you too can swap eachother.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:26 PM
Players are selected to the probowl based on play.
If they were, then fans would not get votes.


In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.
Of course not, but many are. McKenzie was perhaps the best RT in the league for 4 or 5 seasons in a row, never made a probowl. (he had a truly horrible year this year). Diehl was never anywhere near a top LT in the league. Yet Diehl made a probowl and McKenzie didnt.


So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.
It is an accolade, but that doesnt mean it is accurate, or always correct, or a way to tell how good a player is or isnt.


My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player.

So if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, what would your expectations be?

And I still completely disagree that KP isnt a bigtime player. I would argue he was at least the second best, arguably the best, player in the giants secondary.


And I dont need nor have i asked for any help from anyone else. I can do perfectly fine on my own. That your arguments are ridiculous enough that others feel compelled to step in, well, that is your problem.

1) Oh...So fans can't analyse play? Problably should let the Mods know..this message board is pointless.

2) You see you're missing the point...I never said That KP sucks because he never went to the probowl. Had he made the probowl you could use that to backup your love for him. Some guys that should go get snubbed (Said this already) Hell KP maybe deserved to go this year. But on the flip side...the fact that sometimes a player gets snubbed doesn't mean that when a player makes it you get to call BS. I'm sure some people whio deserve to go to Harvard don't get in. Should the people who do get in not be proud? Does this dimminish the prestige of Harvard?

3) I never said it was 100% accurate. But if I say a player is good I certainly can use it to support my claim. Crappy players don't get invited period. Name the top 5 guys at any position and I bet they all have probowls under their belt unless they're very young and early in their career.

4) You're not following me here. The expectations for KP were set PRIOR to draft day. Its not where he was selected that sets his expectation level. Its his play at the college leve that set it. Once the expectation level is set the experts create a "projection"

Based on what I know about KP's college career he could have fallen all the way to the third round and I'd still expect a big time player. Where he was actually drafted isn't the crux of the discussion.

As for the rest of it...I think KP probably was the Second best player in our secondary so we can agree on that at least. Right now I see a player who can make big time player...but he's not yet what I'd call a big time player.

As far as your pleads for help...Whatever.

I'll just say that you called me a fool and now you're calling me ridiculous.

If I'm so ridiculously foolish just keep it moving. We don't actually have to discuss anything with eachother.

well now ur showing ur lack of knowledge of KP predraft...predraft, he was touted as not having a high ceiling and just being a solid type S, which is why he fell to the end of the 1rst round. Absolutely no one had him being the next "Ed Reed" coming out of college...he's actually exceeded his predraft label.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:28 PM
How did he get the name? Well he had previously played at prowbowl level. .

No he didnt. The reason he went to the probowl was because he was the center of the team with the best running game. He never played at a probowl level, he was never one of the best Centers in the league.

Diehl went because he was the LT of the team with the best running game. Diehl was never one of the best LTs in the league

But the three best players on the line, Snee, McKenzie, and Seubert, only Snee has ever made a probowl.

The problem with the probowl is that at a lot of positions its very hard for fans (and probably players quite often) to evaluate play. OL, CB, Safety are notoriously hard to judge.

Right off the bat you contradict yourself.

Tell me how the center wasn't a probowl center when he anchored the best run game in the league AND kept the QB absolutely clean all year.

Are you aware of how key the center is in the run and pass game??????

what does that have to do with him making the pro bowl in a season where he played 4 games and those 4 games he was pretty putrid????

burier
04-05-2012, 01:28 PM
Players are selected to the probowl based on play.
If they were, then fans would not get votes.


In some cases players get snubbed for the PB but to make it seem like every PB selection is BS is ridiculous.
Of course not, but many are. McKenzie was perhaps the best RT in the league for 4 or 5 seasons in a row, never made a probowl. (he had a truly horrible year this year). Diehl was never anywhere near a top LT in the league. Yet Diehl made a probowl and McKenzie didnt.


So you see you have a delusion that the probowl is selected at random and shouldn't be considered a legit accolade.
It is an accolade, but that doesnt mean it is accurate, or always correct, or a way to tell how good a player is or isnt.


My expectation is that every PLAYER, not safety but PLAYER selected in the first round SHOULD become a bigtime player.

So if KP was drafted one pick later, as the first pick of the second round, what would your expectations be?

And I still completely disagree that KP isnt a bigtime player. I would argue he was at least the second best, arguably the best, player in the giants secondary.


And I dont need nor have i asked for any help from anyone else. I can do perfectly fine on my own. That your arguments are ridiculous enough that others feel compelled to step in, well, that is your problem.

1) Oh...So fans can't analyse play? Problably should let the Mods know..this message board is pointless.

2) You see you're missing the point...I never said That KP sucks because he never went to the probowl. Had he made the probowl you could use that to backup your love for him. Some guys that should go get snubbed (Said this already) Hell KP maybe deserved to go this year. But on the flip side...the fact that sometimes a player gets snubbed doesn't mean that when a player makes it you get to call BS. I'm sure some people whio deserve to go to Harvard don't get in. Should the people who do get in not be proud? Does this dimminish the prestige of Harvard?

3) I never said it was 100% accurate. But if I say a player is good I certainly can use it to support my claim. Crappy players don't get invited period. Name the top 5 guys at any position and I bet they all have probowls under their belt unless they're very young and early in their career.

4) You're not following me here. The expectations for KP were set PRIOR to draft day. Its not where he was selected that sets his expectation level. Its his play at the college leve that set it. Once the expectation level is set the experts create a "projection"

Based on what I know about KP's college career he could have fallen all the way to the third round and I'd still expect a big time player. Where he was actually drafted isn't the crux of the discussion.

As for the rest of it...I think KP probably was the Second best player in our secondary so we can agree on that at least. Right now I see a player who can make big time player...but he's not yet what I'd call a big time player.

As far as your pleads for help...Whatever.

I'll just say that you called me a fool and now you're calling me ridiculous.

If I'm so ridiculously foolish just keep it moving. We don't actually have to discuss anything with eachother.

well now ur showing ur lack of knowledge of KP predraft...predraft, he was touted as not having a high ceiling and just being a solid type S, which is why he fell to the end of the 1rst round. Absolutely no one had him being the next "Ed Reed" coming out of college...he's actually exceeded his predraft label.


The next Ed Reed...lol

burier
04-05-2012, 01:29 PM
How did he get the name? Well he had previously played at prowbowl level. .

No he didnt. The reason he went to the probowl was because he was the center of the team with the best running game. He never played at a probowl level, he was never one of the best Centers in the league.

Diehl went because he was the LT of the team with the best running game. Diehl was never one of the best LTs in the league

But the three best players on the line, Snee, McKenzie, and Seubert, only Snee has ever made a probowl.

The problem with the probowl is that at a lot of positions its very hard for fans (and probably players quite often) to evaluate play. OL, CB, Safety are notoriously hard to judge.

Right off the bat you contradict yourself.

Tell me how the center wasn't a probowl center when he anchored the best run game in the league AND kept the QB absolutely clean all year.

Are you aware of how key the center is in the run and pass game??????

what does that have to do with him making the pro bowl in a season where he played 4 games and those 4 games he was pretty putrid????

I've already explained it.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:30 PM
1) Oh...So fans can't analyse play? Problably should let the Mods know..this message board is pointless.

In general, no. Same fans who voted Peyton Hillis to the cover of Madden as a great player...


2) You see you're missing the point...I never said That KP sucks because he never went to the probowl. Had he made the probowl you could use that to backup your love for him.
I absolutely would not use the probowl as a reason for KP being good. The probowl is not an accurate representation of player talent. Probowl is tied very highly into popularity. If a player plays exceptionally well, but is never mentioned in the media in broadcasts, or sports talk or whatever else, they are extremely unlikely to make a probowl.


3) Crappy players don't get invited period. Name the top 5 guys at any position and I bet they all have probowls under their belt unless they're very young and early in their career.

Completely disagree that crappy players dont get invited, I can think of plenty of examples, starting with the giants own David Diehl. Look at the QBs in the 2010 probowl for the AFC. Vince Young and David Garrard. Both lost their starting jobs last year.


4) You're not following me here. The expectations for KP were set PRIOR to draft day. Its not where he was selected that sets his expectation level. Its his play at the college leve that set it. Once the expectation level is set the experts create a "projection"

So now your expectation has nothing to do with where players were drafted, despite you making it clear it was previously in this thread. Fine. Ill let you change your argument.

Now was this pre-draft expectation you achieved on your own based of watching KPs college film? Or was this influenced by what others told you? Perhaps posters here said before the draft?

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:32 PM
Tell me how the center wasn't a probowl center when he anchored the best run game in the league AND kept the QB absolutely clean all year.

Are you aware of how key the center is in the run and pass game??????

He didnt "anchor" the run game, nor did he keep his QB absolutely clean all year.

He was surrounded by far superior talent. He was more along for the ride.

If you compare him, and him alone to other centers around the league he was never amongst the top.

But fans do not go by that, they go by results. Giants had great running game = center must be great. When in actuality, that is not true at all.

nevada11
04-05-2012, 01:35 PM
Tell me how the center wasn't a probowl center when he anchored the best run game in the league AND kept the QB absolutely clean all year.

Are you aware of how key the center is in the run and pass game??????

He didnt "anchor" the run game, nor did he keep his QB absolutely clean all year.

He was surrounded by far superior talent. He was more along for the ride.

If you compare him, and him alone to other centers around the league he was never amongst the top.

But fans do not go by that, they go by results. Giants had great running game = center must be great. When in actuality, that is not true at all.

O'hara was great for the gmen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TqAhkpUNM

He did not deserve to go to the pro bowl for that specific year but do not disrepsect him. Shaun was a great Giant and a great player

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:39 PM
O'hara was great for the gmen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TqAhkpUNM

He did not deserve to go to the pro bowl for that specific year but do not disrepsect him. Shaun was a great Giant and a great player

Dont troll me. He was a solid player, nothing more than that. Certainly nowhere near a great player.

nevada11
04-05-2012, 01:45 PM
O'hara was great for the gmen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-TqAhkpUNM

He did not deserve to go to the pro bowl for that specific year but do not disrepsect him. Shaun was a great Giant and a great player

Dont troll me. He was a solid player, nothing more than that. Certainly nowhere near a great player.

not sure how posting a video is trolling. i am showing you how o'hara was a great player. in that game we could not run the ball against the eagles but o'hara was the only 1 pushing those filfthy eagles out of holes

he is certainly a pro bowl caliber player. that is just one example. Pro football focus rated o'hara as their top center in 2009 and probably their top center again in 2010 if he was healthy

burier
04-05-2012, 01:49 PM
1) Oh...So fans can't analyse play? Problably should let the Mods know..this message board is pointless.

In general, no. Same fans who voted Peyton Hillis to the cover of Madden as a great player...


2) You see you're missing the point...I never said That KP sucks because he never went to the probowl. Had he made the probowl you could use that to backup your love for him.
I absolutely would not use the probowl as a reason for KP being good. The probowl is not an accurate representation of player talent. Probowl is tied very highly into popularity. If a player plays exceptionally well, but is never mentioned in the media in broadcasts, or sports talk or whatever else, they are extremely unlikely to make a probowl.


3) Crappy players don't get invited period. Name the top 5 guys at any position and I bet they all have probowls under their belt unless they're very young and early in their career.

Completely disagree that crappy players dont get invited, I can think of plenty of examples, starting with the giants own David Diehl. Look at the QBs in the 2010 probowl for the AFC. Vince Young and David Garrard. Both lost their starting jobs last year.


4) You're not following me here. The expectations for KP were set PRIOR to draft day. Its not where he was selected that sets his expectation level. Its his play at the college leve that set it. Once the expectation level is set the experts create a "projection"

So now your expectation has nothing to do with where players were drafted, despite you making it clear it was previously in this thread. Fine. Ill let you change your argument.

Now was this pre-draft expectation you achieved on your own based of watching KPs college film? Or was this influenced by what others told you? Perhaps posters here said before the draft?

I'm not changing my argument but I think my argument might be a bit too complex.

You initially insinuated that JR had low(er) expectations for KP than I have and asked me to quote JR in saying that he expects KP to be "a game changer"

I responded by pointing out that JR used his first round pick on the kid and that was the only quote I needed.

Where has my argument changed? You don't randomly draft some guy and say..."Hey well..since we drafted you in the first round you better be good" You have reason to believe that before that draft and that what compells the selection.

From what I knew about KP I expected him to be a really good player. I don't get to draft him though. JR showed that he agreed with me because he does get to draft him and he did with his very first pick.

Jesus am I really that hard to follow?

Say we picked 31 in the first round and 2nd in the second round....If we waited and took KP in the second round...does that actually make KP a worse player? Of course it doesn't. You take a guy at the very top of the second round you expect that guy to be a stud too.

Also remember that KP Came out of school early so I expected that he'd take a little longer to come around....no way of predicting the injury.

As far as how I came to my conclusion. I admit that I'm not a huge college football fan so around this time of year I start researching the prospects.

I can't remember what was said on the boards about KP prior to the draft. When i heard that there was a good chance we'd take him if he was still there I watched as much footage of him as possible and read what I could.

I gathered that he'd be great for us...Not Ed Reed...but a big time play making SS in about 2 seasons.

Now we're at...season 3? And he's been hurt...but I don't use that as an excuse and he's good just not quite as good as I thought he'd be at this point.

JR may be satisfied..I don't know...and he may agree with you that KP is a BIG TIME player right now. I don't know. I do know that JR wouldn't have taken him in the first round if he didn't expect that from him.

burier
04-05-2012, 01:52 PM
Tell me how the center wasn't a probowl center when he anchored the best run game in the league AND kept the QB absolutely clean all year.

Are you aware of how key the center is in the run and pass game??????

He didnt "anchor" the run game, nor did he keep his QB absolutely clean all year.

He was surrounded by far superior talent. He was more along for the ride.

If you compare him, and him alone to other centers around the league he was never amongst the top.

But fans do not go by that, they go by results. Giants had great running game = center must be great. When in actuality, that is not true at all.

totally disagree and I almost feel like you don't even believe this post.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:52 PM
not sure how posting a video is trolling. i am showing you how o'hara was a great player. in that game we could not run the ball against the eagles but o'hara was the only 1 pushing those filfthy eagles out of holes
I dont see that at all. Snee and McKenzie are the two best OL in that game by far. Diehl is crappy as usual.


he is certainly a pro bowl caliber player. that is just one example. Pro football focus rated o'hara as their top center in 2009 and probably their top center again in 2010 if he was healthy

O'Hara was never their top rated center. He wasent even the highest rated center on the giants in 2010.

And if we are going to use PFF as reasons for the probowl, McKenzie was one of the best RTs the last 5 or so seasons, (except last year) and he never made a probowl. So what does that say about the probowl accuracy?

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:57 PM
not sure how posting a video is trolling. i am showing you how o'hara was a great player. in that game we could not run the ball against the eagles but o'hara was the only 1 pushing those filfthy eagles out of holes
I dont see that at all. Snee and McKenzie are the two best OL in that game by far. Diehl is crappy as usual.


he is certainly a pro bowl caliber player. that is just one example. Pro football focus rated o'hara as their top center in 2009 and probably their top center again in 2010 if he was healthy

O'Hara was never their top rated center. He wasent even the highest rated center on the giants in 2010.

And if we are going to use PFF as reasons for the probowl, McKenzie was one of the best RTs the last 5 or so seasons, (except last year) and he never made a probowl. So what does that say about the probowl accuracy?

dont even bother slip. this guy actually buys into having shorter arms as a DL is better than having longer arms, and that having shorter arms means a player is quicker off the snap, a better pass rusher, and will give him lower center of gravity...he's "special"

nevada11
04-05-2012, 02:01 PM
not sure how posting a video is trolling. i am showing you how o'hara was a great player. in that game we could not run the ball against the eagles but o'hara was the only 1 pushing those filfthy eagles out of holes
I dont see that at all. Snee and McKenzie are the two best OL in that game by far. Diehl is crappy as usual.


he is certainly a pro bowl caliber player. that is just one example. Pro football focus rated o'hara as their top center in 2009 and probably their top center again in 2010 if he was healthy

O'Hara was never their top rated center. He wasent even the highest rated center on the giants in 2010.

And if we are going to use PFF as reasons for the probowl, McKenzie was one of the best RTs the last 5 or so seasons, (except last year) and he never made a probowl. So what does that say about the probowl accuracy?

dont even bother slip. this guy actually buys into having shorter arms as a DL is better than having longer arms, and that having shorter arms means a player is quicker off the snap, a better pass rusher, and will give him lower center of gravity...he's "special"

Huh? I said I disagreed with neverend you dumbass. Slipknottin knows how to support his opinion with facts. in your debate with Neverend u could not which is why you were losing and looked really dumb overall

burier
04-05-2012, 02:02 PM
not sure how posting a video is trolling. i am showing you how o'hara was a great player. in that game we could not run the ball against the eagles but o'hara was the only 1 pushing those filfthy eagles out of holes
I dont see that at all. Snee and McKenzie are the two best OL in that game by far. Diehl is crappy as usual.


he is certainly a pro bowl caliber player. that is just one example. Pro football focus rated o'hara as their top center in 2009 and probably their top center again in 2010 if he was healthy

O'Hara was never their top rated center. He wasent even the highest rated center on the giants in 2010.

And if we are going to use PFF as reasons for the probowl, McKenzie was one of the best RTs the last 5 or so seasons, (except last year) and he never made a probowl. So what does that say about the probowl accuracy?

Dude McKensie been a turnstyle for the majority of his time here. Totally useless against speed rushers.

There's nothing wrong with the prowbowl other than the level of competion in the actual game.

Look at Cruz. He didn't make it but I bet he makes it next season even if his numbers drop a bit. (He'll make unless his number drop off a cliff and he might anyway.)

You gonna say the Prowbowl sucks because Cruz got in when he didn't deserve it?

The guys who go are good players. Saying Ohara was surrounded by talent is ridiculous.

All of these guys bar Snee and McKensie were late round draft picks including Ohara himself.

And McKensie wasn't anything to right home about in pass protection.

nevada11
04-05-2012, 02:02 PM
not sure how posting a video is trolling. i am showing you how o'hara was a great player. in that game we could not run the ball against the eagles but o'hara was the only 1 pushing those filfthy eagles out of holes
I dont see that at all. Snee and McKenzie are the two best OL in that game by far. Diehl is crappy as usual.


he is certainly a pro bowl caliber player. that is just one example. Pro football focus rated o'hara as their top center in 2009 and probably their top center again in 2010 if he was healthy

O'Hara was never their top rated center. He wasent even the highest rated center on the giants in 2010.

And if we are going to use PFF as reasons for the probowl, McKenzie was one of the best RTs the last 5 or so seasons, (except last year) and he never made a probowl. So what does that say about the probowl accuracy?

I respect your opinion. I just think O'Hara deserves more credit than he gets

I can swear on my life O'Hara was PFF's top rated center in 2009. Guess I'm imagining things because now their rankings are private. Maybe O'Hara was second or third overall but he was up there

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 02:06 PM
I'm not changing my argument but I think my argument might be a bit too complex.

First you say - "That's what everyone is looking to take with their first round draft choice. A GAME CHANGER big time player. "

Then you say " You're not following me here. The expectations for KP were set PRIOR to draft day. Its not where he was selected that sets his expectation level. Its his play at the college leve that set it. Once the expectation level is set the experts create a "projection"

So does where he was drafted have anything to do with your argument or not? You are trying to play both sides of it, and then just run in circles.



You initially insinuated that JR had low(er) expectations for KP than I have and asked me to quote JR in saying that he expects KP to be "a game changer"

You go to this arbitrary definition of game changer, and your only example of a game changer is Ed Reed. No, I am very much certain that JR never expected KP to become Ed Reed.



From what I knew about KP I expected him to be a really good player. I don't get to draft him though. JR showed that he agreed with me because he does get to draft him and he did with his very first pick.

Now you want to defer your opinion to experts?


Say we picked 31 in the first round and 2nd in the second round....If we waited and took KP in the second round...does that actually make KP a worse player? Of course it doesn't. You take a guy at the very top of the second round you expect that guy to be a stud too.

Now you are arguing that it isnt just first round players that are expected to be game changers, but also second rounders? Make up your mind.


Also remember that KP Came out of school early so I expected that he'd take a little longer to come around....no way of predicting the injury.
Not sure what this has to do with anything


As far as how I came to my conclusion. I admit that I'm not a huge college football fan so around this time of year I start researching the prospects.

So you used other peoples expectations as to what you should expect.


I gathered that he'd be great for us...Not Ed Reed...but a big time play making SS in about 2 seasons.

More arbitrary crap. None of these defining words you are using actually mean anything. What does "play making" mean? What does "game changing" mean?


Now we're at...season 3? And he's been hurt...but I don't use that as an excuse and he's good just not quite as good as I thought he'd be at this point.
Not as good compared to what? What were your expectations? Stop using arbitrary terms and define something.


JR may be satisfied..I don't know...and he may agree with you that KP is a BIG TIME player right now. I don't know. I do know that JR wouldn't have taken him in the first round if he didn't expect that from him.

And then go back to deferring to experts.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 02:09 PM
All of these guys bar Snee and McKensie were late round draft picks including Ohara himself.

And McKensie wasn't anything to right home about in pass protection.

McKenzie was a phenominal right tackle, easily one of the best in the entire league. Not sure where players were drafted has any relevance with anything.

Who is talking about Cruz? Frankly I think Nicks deserves it over Cruz, but that is how the probowl works, Cruz will make it before Nicks.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 02:12 PM
I can swear on my life O'Hara was PFF's top rated center in 2009. Guess I'm imagining things because now their rankings are private. Maybe O'Hara was second or third overall but he was up there

I think he may have been second. Ironically in 2010 Seubert was rated higher at Center than O'hara was.

In any case, PFFs highest rated players were Snee and McKenzie, while Diehl was rated horribly low every season. Yet Diehl makes a probowl while McKenzie doesnt.

burier
04-05-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm not changing my argument but I think my argument might be a bit too complex.

First you say - "That's what everyone is looking to take with their first round draft choice. A GAME CHANGER big time player. "

Then you say " You're not following me here. The expectations for KP were set PRIOR to draft day. Its not where he was selected that sets his expectation level. Its his play at the college leve that set it. Once the expectation level is set the experts create a "projection"

So does where he was drafted have anything to do with your argument or not? You are trying to play both sides of it, and then just run in circles.



You initially insinuated that JR had low(er) expectations for KP than I have and asked me to quote JR in saying that he expects KP to be "a game changer"

You go to this arbitrary definition of game changer, and your only example of a game changer is Ed Reed. No, I am very much certain that JR never expected KP to become Ed Reed.



From what I knew about KP I expected him to be a really good player. I don't get to draft him though. JR showed that he agreed with me because he does get to draft him and he did with his very first pick.

Now you want to defer your opinion to experts?


Say we picked 31 in the first round and 2nd in the second round....If we waited and took KP in the second round...does that actually make KP a worse player? Of course it doesn't. You take a guy at the very top of the second round you expect that guy to be a stud too.

Now you are arguing that it isnt just first round players that are expected to be game changers, but also second rounders? Your argument first was that first rounders are expected to be game changers.


Also remember that KP Came out of school early so I expected that he'd take a little longer to come around....no way of predicting the injury.
Not sure what this has to do with anything


As far as how I came to my conclusion. I admit that I'm not a huge college football fan so around this time of year I start researching the prospects.

So you used other peoples expectations as to what you should expect.


I gathered that he'd be great for us...Not Ed Reed...but a big time play making SS in about 2 seasons.

More arbitrary crap. None of these defining words you are using actually mean anything. What does "play making" mean? What does "game changing" mean?


Now we're at...season 3? And he's been hurt...but I don't use that as an excuse and he's good just not quite as good as I thought he'd be at this point.
Not as good compared to what? What were your expectations? Stop using arbitrary terms and define something.


JR may be satisfied..I don't know...and he may agree with you that KP is a BIG TIME player right now. I don't know. I do know that JR wouldn't have taken him in the first round if he didn't expect that from him.

And then go back to deferring to experts.

you're saying the terms I'm using are arbitrary...I don't know what else to say to that. Game Changer...Ed Reed is one...I wouldn't say that you're either as Good as Ed Reed or you're not a game changer. I don't really know how to define Game Changer for you. I can list some if you'd like..guys other than Ed reed....Oh wait..I did that already.

I don't really know what else you could want from me as far as specificts.

I stated my opinion.

Our discussion was about KP's production Vs expectations. Where KP was selected speaks to what the team who selected him expects.

This has got to be the most convoluded discussion I've ever had on these boards.

All this typing so I can say... "I THOUGHT THE GUY WOULD BE BETTER!"

I don;t even know what is being argued at this point.

I thought he'd be better you thought he'd be just as good as he is.

I'm totally cool with that.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 02:26 PM
you're saying the terms I'm using are arbitrary...I don't know what else to say to that. Game Changer...Ed Reed is one...I wouldn't say that you're either as Good as Ed Reed or you're not a game changer. I don't really know how to define Game Changer for you. I can list some if you'd like..guys other than Ed reed....Oh wait..I did that already.

No, you listed the players who had gone to a probowl. Define what makes Michael Griffin or Yeremiah Bell a playmaker. Or for you does probowl = playmaker?



All this typing so I can say... "I THOUGHT THE GUY WOULD BE BETTER!".

and you cant even support why that is.

You cant define what it is that you want KP to be, other than, apparently, a probowler.

Then you cant define what expectations you had for him, other than saying first that he was a first round pick, then second as saying, well i heard he was great in college.

You have provided absolutely nothing in terms of specifics in this entire thread. Just constant use of ambiguous terms that you clearly either don't want to or cant define.

burier
04-05-2012, 02:31 PM
you're saying the terms I'm using are arbitrary...I don't know what else to say to that. Game Changer...Ed Reed is one...I wouldn't say that you're either as Good as Ed Reed or you're not a game changer. I don't really know how to define Game Changer for you. I can list some if you'd like..guys other than Ed reed....Oh wait..I did that already.

No, you listed the players who had gone to a probowl. Define what makes Michael Griffin or Yeremiah Bell a playmaker. Or for you does probowl = playmaker?



All this typing so I can say... "I THOUGHT THE GUY WOULD BE BETTER!".

and you cant even support why that is.

You cant define what it is that you want KP to be, other than, apparently, a probowler.

Then you cant define what expectations you had for him, other than saying first that he was a first round pick, then second as saying, well i heard he was great in college.

You have provided absolutely nothing in terms of specifics in this entire thread. Just constant use of ambiguous terms that you clearly either don't want to or cant define.

I've been as specific as I can. I thought he'd be better.

I named the guys I think are better than KP right now. If they were in the Probowl great. Had nothing to do wtih my list though.

Those guys show up every week...I always here about em..they're always making plays. You don't have to look around to see if they're on the field or not because they're always making a play...always breaking up a pass..always making a tackle.


KP doesn't show up every game. He actually seems to dissappear for weeks at time.

One thing I'll give him credit for is when he missed a couple games the D definately got worse so...he was clearly missed.

You want more specifics than that?

I'll follow your lead..tell me specifically why you feel KP has met expectations and is a "big time" player.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 02:38 PM
He doesn't show up every game. He actually seems to dissappear for weeks at time.

Now, lets see if this is true.

KP missed one game this season, week 14 at dallas.

In two games this year he only had 1 tackle. One of which was against the Jets week 16, but he had 2 pass deflections and an interception that game. The other game was week 13 against the packers where he left the game in the second quarter with a knee injury (same injury that kept him out week 14). In that game before he got hurt, he also broke up a pass. So this idea that he disappeared for weeks, or doesnt show up, is completely false if you simply look at the data.

Your answer simply does not answer the question I asked. In what regards are Bell and Griffin 'playmakers' to which KP is not? If your list was not simple a list of guys who had made probowls, I would have figured Bell, specifically, would have never approached a list of so called 'playmakers'.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:54 PM
wait...burier was actually serious when he said Bell is a better safety than KP?
why would you even care what he thought after a statement like that?

that'd be like asking the people who swore the earth was flat for astronomy lessons

burier
04-05-2012, 03:12 PM
He doesn't show up every game. He actually seems to dissappear for weeks at time.

Now, lets see if this is true.

KP missed one game this season, week 14 at dallas.

In two games this year he only had 1 tackle. One of which was against the Jets week 16, but he had 2 pass deflections and an interception that game. The other game was week 13 against the packers where he left the game in the second quarter with a knee injury (same injury that kept him out week 14). In that game before he got hurt, he also broke up a pass. So this idea that he disappeared for weeks, or doesnt show up, is completely false if you simply look at the data.

Your answer simply does not answer the question I asked. In what regards are Bell and Griffin 'playmakers' to which KP is not? If your list was not simple a list of guys who had made probowls, I would have figured Bell, specifically, would have never approached a list of so called 'playmakers'.

KP has had a breakout year...Are you saying he's better than Bell based on 1 season?

And Bell makes plays....Lets get into it.


in 2010 KP with 77 tackles Vs Bells 101

om 2011 KP 82 tackles Vs Bells 107

2011 KP 11 passes defensed Vs Bells 4 (The Giants actually scored the ball so KP got for more opportunities to defend a pass)

2010 KP 1 INT Vs Bells 1 INT

2011 KPs 4 INTs Vs Bells 1 INT.

So statistically KP had a stronger 2011 than Bell

But over the past 4 years Bell has never posted less than 100 tackles. Never posted less than 80 Solos

While KP in his career has never posted more than 60 solos.

in 2011 where it looks like KP might have a statistical edge a closer look shows exactly what I'm talking about.

Bell at Sandiego posted 14 solos.

KPs high is 6

Bell even this past year popped off the screen a little more than KP and this is clearly KPS break out year last season we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 03:15 PM
dont even bother slip. this guy actually buys into having shorter arms as a DL is better than having longer arms, and that having shorter arms means a player is quicker off the snap, a better pass rusher, and will give him lower center of gravity...he's "special"

Again, you want your 1-technique having long arms and excelling against the run.. using power against the pocket vs pass

In your pass rushing 3-technique you want your lineman to collapse the pocket, push the pocket, and split double teams. This is the most effective way to get pressure inside in the NFL. A lineman with shorter arms (bernard, austin, fred robbins, alford) is more effective at doing so than someone with really long arms. Name me a dominant 3-technique, interior pass rusher with 34+ inch arms. Name me a dominant interior run defender w/ short arms.

There are only one exceptions. Haloti Ngata doesnt have really long arms but is a great run defender because he has amazing strength. And maybe Nick Fairley. That's about it

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:15 PM
So your defintion of 'playmaker' is by how many tackles a guy has?

So in that case, Reed, who hasent had more than 70 tackles since 2004, is a far worse playmaker than Bell?

Or perhaps we are comparing an in the box safety (Bell) to a safety who primarily plays deep middle (KP, Reed)

burier
04-05-2012, 03:15 PM
wait...burier was actually serious when he said Bell is a better safety than KP?
why would you even care what he thought after a statement like that?

that'd be like asking the people who swore the earth was flat for astronomy lessons

You're such a buffoon...

KP has actually posted 1 good season VS 4 Seasons posted by Bell.

Please get a clue.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:16 PM
KP has actually posted 1 good season VS 4 Seasons posted by Bell.


Thats generally what happens when you have been in the league twice as long.

burier
04-05-2012, 03:19 PM
So your defintion of 'playmaker' is by how many tackles a guy has?

So in that case, Reed, who hasent had more than 70 tackles since 2004, is a far worse playmaker than Bell?

Or perhaps we are comparing an in the box safety (Bell) to a safety who primarily plays deep middle (KP, Reed)

I'm just trying to play fair. YOU'RE asking me to quantify what my eyes are seeing and then you say...

"Nah stats don't count"

(Fine...just take my word for it which is what I've been saying all along.)

YOU ask me to compare the two players and then you say...

"Nah they play different positions."

I don't see the point.

burier
04-05-2012, 03:20 PM
KP has actually posted 1 good season VS 4 Seasons posted by Bell.


Thats generally what happens when you have been in the league twice as long.

I said he was a better player...That's all I said.

You saying that he's been around longer is an excuse.

I never said KP would never be as good as Bell..Just that he isn't right now.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:21 PM
I'm just trying to play fair. YOU'RE asking me to quantify what my eyes are seeing and then you say...

"Nah stats don't count"

(Fine...just take my word for it which is what I've been saying all along.)

YOU ask me to compare the two players and then you say...

"Nah they play different positions."

I don't see the point.

Let me put this in order.

Define playmaker?
You say Ed Reed. Fine.

Define playmakers other than Reed, you say Bell. Fine.

Explain how Bell is a playmaker?

You say he has lots of tackles.

Then define how Ed Reed is a playmaker? He doesnt have lots of tackles.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:24 PM
I said he was a better player...That's all I said.

You saying that he's been around longer is an excuse.

I never said KP would never be as good as Bell..Just that he isn't right now.

No, you said he is a better player based on his career. When someones career has been twice as long, that negates the argument.

Bell is such a great safety he isnt even signed with a team...

burier
04-05-2012, 03:25 PM
I'm just trying to play fair. YOU'RE asking me to quantify what my eyes are seeing and then you say...

"Nah stats don't count"

(Fine...just take my word for it which is what I've been saying all along.)

YOU ask me to compare the two players and then you say...

"Nah they play different positions."

I don't see the point.

Let me put this in order.

Define playmaker?
You say Ed Reed. Fine.

Define playmakers other than Reed, you say Bell and Griffin.

Fine, explain how Bell and Griffin are playmakers?

You say that have lots of tackles.

Then define how Ed Reed is a playmaker? He doesnt have lots of tackles.

Ed Reed from a career standpoint makes plays buy cutting half (Or more than half) Of the field off. Getting INTS and running after he gets those INTs.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:27 PM
Ed Reed from a career standpoint makes plays buy cutting half (Or more than half) Of the field off. Getting INTS and running after he gets those INTs.

alright. so now you are saying a playmaker can be.

A. A guy with a lot of tackles.
B. a guy who makes a lot of interceptions

Am I correct thus far? Or are you saying that returning the interceptions for TDs is the playmaker part, and not the interceptions themselves?

burier
04-05-2012, 03:28 PM
I said he was a better player...That's all I said.

You saying that he's been around longer is an excuse.

I never said KP would never be as good as Bell..Just that he isn't right now.

No, you said he is a better player based on his career. When someones career has been twice as long, that completely negates the point of the argument.

Bell is such a great safety he isnt even signed with a team...

First of all I was talking about his last 4 years (Not career stats) in the League. KP has 4 years under his belt too so that's a perfectly fair comparison.


If I was comparing career STATS you'd have a point...but I'm not...so you don't

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:29 PM
First of all I was talking about his last 4 years (Not career stats) in the League. KP has 4 years under his belt too so that's a perfectly fair comparison.


Or lets compare Bell's first four seasons in the league to KPs first four seasons? Or is that not fair?

burier
04-05-2012, 03:31 PM
Ed Reed from a career standpoint makes plays buy cutting half (Or more than half) Of the field off. Getting INTS and running after he gets those INTs.

alright. so now you are saying a playmaker can be.

A. A guy with a lot of tackles.
B. a guy who makes a lot of interceptions

Am I correct thus far? Or are you saying that returning the interceptions for TDs is the playmaker part, and not the interceptions themselves?

Yeah..so far but lets add

C: A guy who gets a lot of sacks

D: A guy who gets a lot of deflections.

E: A guy who recovers alot of fumbles.

F: A guy forces alot of fumbles.

G: A guy who causes some combination of 2 or more letters.

burier
04-05-2012, 03:33 PM
First of all I was talking about his last 4 years (Not career stats) in the League. KP has 4 years under his belt too so that's a perfectly fair comparison.


Or lets compare Bell's first four seasons in the league to KPs first four seasons? Or is that not fair?

That would be fair if we were talking about weather or not KP was on track to be as good as Bell (Or better).

But we're not discussing that either.

You asked me about some playmakers right now and I told you.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:39 PM
Yeah..so far but lets add

C: A guy who gets a lot of sacks

D: A guy who gets a lot of deflections.

E: A guy who recovers alot of fumbles.

F: A guy forces alot of fumbles.

G: A guy who causes some combination of 2 or more letters.

Now that you have defined what you think a playmaker is.

Lets. See, KP had 82 tackles, 11 pass deflections, 4 interceptions, and a forced fumble.

But that is not a playmaker.

This is a playmaker.

Griffin - 75 tackles, 7 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, and 1 forced fumble.

Wilson - 65 tackles, 14 pass deflections, 1 interception, 1 forced fumble

Reed - 52 tackles, 1 sack, 8 pass deflections, 3 inteceptions, 1 forced fumble

Polamalu - 91 tackles, 1 sack, 14 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, no forced fumbles

I cant remember who else was in your list.

So based on your criteria of 'playmaker' this season KP was MORE of a playmaker than all of those other players (arguably polamalu was as good or better)

Now of course, you will shift this argument to "it doesnt matter what he did this year, were talking about his career", Even though you have in fact just posted that we are discussing "playmakers right now"

burier
04-05-2012, 03:50 PM
Yeah..so far but lets add

C: A guy who gets a lot of sacks

D: A guy who gets a lot of deflections.

E: A guy who recovers alot of fumbles.

F: A guy forces alot of fumbles.

G: A guy who causes some combination of 2 or more letters.

Now that you have defined what you think a playmaker is.

Lets. See, KP had 82 tackles, 11 pass deflections, 4 interceptions, and a forced fumble.

But that is not a playmaker.

This is a playmaker.

Griffin - 75 tackles, 7 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, and 1 forced fumble.

Wilson - 65 tackles, 14 pass deflections, 1 interception, 1 forced fumble

Reed - 52 tackles, 1 sack, 8 pass deflections, 3 inteceptions, 1 forced fumble

Polamalu - 91 tackles, 1 sack, 14 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, no forced fumbles

I cant remember who else was in your list.

So based on your criteria of 'playmaker' this season KP was MORE of a playmaker than all of those other players (arguably polamalu was as good or better)

Now of course, you will shift this argument to "it doesnt matter what he did this year, were talking about his career", Even though you have in fact just posted that we are discussing "playmakers right now"

I just want to be clear that the reason I posted the criteria was more to speak to how difficult it is to define what a playmaker is beyond to say "One who makes plays."

Also when I say "Right now" that is not meant to be confused with "This past season" I feel a certain way about certain players right now, as in CURRENTLY, based on the totality of their work.

"Bells play over his entire career leads me to believe he is a playmaker RIGHT NOW"

So I definately respect your effort to try to corner me on that point but its a bit off the mark.

All that said I'm a good sport and I will say that you have argued me into conceading to this point: In the 2011 season Kenny Phillips was indeed a playmaker.

I wish he was a bit more consistent game to game but nonetheless he had a great showing of really nice flashes.

If he can do it again I won't be able to attach a year to it and he'll just be a playmaker to me.

Fair enough?

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 03:53 PM
I just want to be clear that the reason I posted the criteria was more to speak to how difficult it is to define what a playmaker is beyond to say "One who makes plays."

Ah yes, go back to arbitrary things.


Also when I say "Right now" that is not meant to be confused with "This past season" I have feel a certain way about certain players right now as in CURRENTLY based on the totality of their work.
No, right now means how much of a playmaker they are in the offseason on their couches.


In the 2011 season Kenny Phillips was indeed a playmaker..

You roped yourself into that one. So if I am to understand this correctly, since the 2011 season ended, KP has lost his status as a playmaker, but other players who werent playmakers in 2011 have become one?

What a strange offseason.

burier
04-05-2012, 03:58 PM
I just want to be clear that the reason I posted the criteria was more to speak to how difficult it is to define what a playmaker is beyond to say "One who makes plays."

Ah yes, go back to arbitrary things.


Also when I say "Right now" that is not meant to be confused with "This past season" I have feel a certain way about certain players right now as in CURRENTLY based on the totality of their work.
No, right now means how much of a playmaker they are in the offseason on their couches.


In the 2011 season Kenny Phillips was indeed a playmaker..

You roped yourself into that one. So if I am to understand this correctly, since the 2011 season ended, KP has lost his status as a playmaker, but other players who werent playmakers in 2011 have become one?

What a strange offseason.


No he never had it from me...He gains it from doing it consistently.

I guess that would be letter H: And does it for most than one season since we all know 1 season could be a fluke.

But like i said you win...ths past season he definately had his moments.

Edit: And when JR used that first round pick on him I'm sure that's what he was looking for. 3 out of 4 years of almost 0 production and 1 really strong year. Hmmmmmmmm

(One more for the bad guy ;)

Neverend
04-05-2012, 10:00 PM
Crazy thing, I remember there was a huge like 30+ page discussion thread last year and one of the heated debates was whether or not KP was a playmaker and does he have range. If only this video were around then

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 10:10 PM
Yeah..so far but lets add

C: A guy who gets a lot of sacks

D: A guy who gets a lot of deflections.

E: A guy who recovers alot of fumbles.

F: A guy forces alot of fumbles.

G: A guy who causes some combination of 2 or more letters.

Now that you have defined what you think a playmaker is.

Lets. See, KP had 82 tackles, 11 pass deflections, 4 interceptions, and a forced fumble.

But that is not a playmaker.

This is a playmaker.

Griffin - 75 tackles, 7 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, and 1 forced fumble.

Wilson - 65 tackles, 14 pass deflections, 1 interception, 1 forced fumble

Reed - 52 tackles, 1 sack, 8 pass deflections, 3 inteceptions, 1 forced fumble

Polamalu - 91 tackles, 1 sack, 14 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, no forced fumbles

I cant remember who else was in your list.

So based on your criteria of 'playmaker' this season KP was MORE of a playmaker than all of those other players (arguably polamalu was as good or better)

Now of course, you will shift this argument to "it doesnt matter what he did this year, were talking about his career", Even though you have in fact just posted that we are discussing "playmakers right now"

I just want to be clear that the reason I posted the criteria was more to speak to how difficult it is to define what a playmaker is beyond to say "One who makes plays."

Also when I say "Right now" that is not meant to be confused with "This past season" I feel a certain way about certain players right now, as in CURRENTLY, based on the totality of their work.

"Bells play over his entire career leads me to believe he is a playmaker RIGHT NOW"

So I definately respect your effort to try to corner me on that point but its a bit off the mark.

All that said I'm a good sport and I will say that you have argued me into conceading to this point: In the 2011 season Kenny Phillips was indeed a playmaker.

I wish he was a bit more consistent game to game but nonetheless he had a great showing of really nice flashes.

If he can do it again I won't be able to attach a year to it and he'll just be a playmaker to me.

Fair enough?

but ur reasoning is still flawed bc Phillips as a rookie absolutely displayed "game changer" ability, second season, after a 2 int game vs Dallas, he injured his knee badly. 3rd year he worked to get back to his prior level of play, and even this past season was still protected by Fewell as to bring KP along slowly. So we basically have 2 legit seasons to analyze his play (i maintain that even his season after the microfracture surgery he still played at a high level considering) and those 2 seasons he absolutely displayed excellent talent.

I still cant fathom how you'd list Bell as being a better safety especially after this last season...

lawl
04-05-2012, 10:23 PM
Yeremiah bell is still looking for a job. Who knows, maybe he'll end up being KP's backup this year.

JMFP2
04-05-2012, 11:54 PM
Yeah..so far but lets add C: A guy who gets a lot of sacks D: A guy who gets a lot of deflections. E: A guy who recovers alot of fumbles. F: A guy forces alot of fumbles. G: A guy who causes some combination of 2 or more letters. Now that you have defined what you think a playmaker is. Lets. See, KP had 82 tackles, 11 pass deflections, 4 interceptions, and a forced fumble. But that is not a playmaker. This is a playmaker. Griffin - 75 tackles, 7 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, and 1 forced fumble. Wilson - 65 tackles, 14 pass deflections, 1 interception, 1 forced fumble Reed - 52 tackles, 1 sack, 8 pass deflections, 3 inteceptions, 1 forced fumble Polamalu - 91 tackles, 1 sack, 14 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, no forced fumbles I cant remember who else was in your list. So based on your criteria of 'playmaker' this season KP was MORE of a playmaker than all of those other players (arguably polamalu was as good or better) Now of course, you will shift this argument to "it doesnt matter what he did this year, were talking about his career", Even though you have in fact just posted that we are discussing "playmakers right now" I just want to be clear that the reason I posted the criteria was more to speak to how difficult it is to define what a playmaker is beyond to say "One who makes plays." Also when I say "Right now" that is not meant to be confused with "This past season" I feel a certain way about certain players right now, as in CURRENTLY, based on the totality of their work. "Bells play over his entire career leads me to believe he is a playmaker RIGHT NOW" So I definately respect your effort to try to corner me on that point but its a bit off the mark. All that said I'm a good sport and I will say that you have argued me into conceading to this point: In the 2011 season Kenny Phillips was indeed a playmaker. I wish he was a bit more consistent game to game but nonetheless he had a great showing of really nice flashes. If he can do it again I won't be able to attach a year to it and he'll just be a playmaker to me. Fair enough? but ur reasoning is still flawed bc Phillips as a rookie absolutely displayed "game changer" ability, second season, after a 2 int game vs Dallas, he injured his knee badly. 3rd year he worked to get back to his prior level of play, and even this past season was still protected by Fewell as to bring KP along slowly. So we basically have 2 legit seasons to analyze his play (i maintain that even his season after the microfracture surgery he still played at a high level considering) and those 2 seasons he absolutely displayed excellent talent. I still cant fathom how you'd list Bell as being a better safety especially after this last season...</P>


Next season should be very interesting.....Phillips should really be in his prime at that point, from both an age and post-injury standpoint.</P>

EJ Blue
04-05-2012, 11:57 PM
Everytime I think of KP, I think of that Cowboys game 3 years ago.

burier
04-06-2012, 10:58 AM
Yeah..so far but lets add

C: A guy who gets a lot of sacks

D: A guy who gets a lot of deflections.

E: A guy who recovers alot of fumbles.

F: A guy forces alot of fumbles.

G: A guy who causes some combination of 2 or more letters.

Now that you have defined what you think a playmaker is.

Lets. See, KP had 82 tackles, 11 pass deflections, 4 interceptions, and a forced fumble.

But that is not a playmaker.

This is a playmaker.

Griffin - 75 tackles, 7 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, and 1 forced fumble.

Wilson - 65 tackles, 14 pass deflections, 1 interception, 1 forced fumble

Reed - 52 tackles, 1 sack, 8 pass deflections, 3 inteceptions, 1 forced fumble

Polamalu - 91 tackles, 1 sack, 14 pass deflections, 2 interceptions, no forced fumbles

I cant remember who else was in your list.

So based on your criteria of 'playmaker' this season KP was MORE of a playmaker than all of those other players (arguably polamalu was as good or better)

Now of course, you will shift this argument to "it doesnt matter what he did this year, were talking about his career", Even though you have in fact just posted that we are discussing "playmakers right now"

I just want to be clear that the reason I posted the criteria was more to speak to how difficult it is to define what a playmaker is beyond to say "One who makes plays."

Also when I say "Right now" that is not meant to be confused with "This past season" I feel a certain way about certain players right now, as in CURRENTLY, based on the totality of their work.

"Bells play over his entire career leads me to believe he is a playmaker RIGHT NOW"

So I definately respect your effort to try to corner me on that point but its a bit off the mark.

All that said I'm a good sport and I will say that you have argued me into conceading to this point: In the 2011 season Kenny Phillips was indeed a playmaker.

I wish he was a bit more consistent game to game but nonetheless he had a great showing of really nice flashes.

If he can do it again I won't be able to attach a year to it and he'll just be a playmaker to me.

Fair enough?

but ur reasoning is still flawed bc Phillips as a rookie absolutely displayed "game changer" ability, second season, after a 2 int game vs Dallas, he injured his knee badly. 3rd year he worked to get back to his prior level of play, and even this past season was still protected by Fewell as to bring KP along slowly. So we basically have 2 legit seasons to analyze his play (i maintain that even his season after the microfracture surgery he still played at a high level considering) and those 2 seasons he absolutely displayed excellent talent.

I still cant fathom how you'd list Bell as being a better safety especially after this last season...

Statistically speaking Bell and KP were pretty close this season...so. I don't really know what else to say about that.

I'll grant you that KP has ALWAYS shown playmaker ability...but a true playmaker actually makes plays...he doesn't just show the ability to and KP made plays this season. I think he can double it up but we'll have to wait and see.

As far as the injury situation. Its unfortunate but it is part of football and can't really be used as an excuse. Its a bottom line win or die business. No one cares who was injured in the grand scheme of things.

If JR had a crystal ball and it told him that if he drafed KP his career numbers after 4 years would be what they are I don't think JR would have drafted the kid.

Now we're in a situation where we may not feel its worth it to even resign KP when his contract is up.

No one drafts a guy in the first round thinking that the player is only going to be on the team through his rookie contract.

You can still love KP and use common sense at the same time.

I never said KP was bad guy or a bad player...Just so far not exactly the production we thought we were drafting.

nevada11
04-15-2012, 01:07 PM
KP's stats last year were far superior

Neverend
06-13-2012, 06:49 PM
If JR had a crystal ball and it told him that if he drafed KP his career numbers after 4 years would be what they are I don't think JR would have drafted the kid.

Now we're in a situation where we may not feel its worth it to even resign KP when his contract is up.

No one drafts a guy in the first round thinking that the player is only going to be on the team through his rookie contract.

You can still love KP and use common sense at the same time.

This is very wrong dude. You have an absolutely unusual idea of what safeties are supposed to do in an nfl game. I also can't help but think you're being a little ignorant here as well

You know what jason whitten told our safety coach? That the cowboys dont throw in the post when "number 21" is there because they know "he can go get it" and by it they mean the ball. Other NFL teams respect KP but according to you he's an expendable safety not worthy of his draft slot? Trust me, the giants will lock this guy up

slipknottin
06-13-2012, 07:01 PM
A lot of us didnt need Witten to confirm what we saw on tape. KP is an exceptional deep safety. Teams rarely throw deep if he is back there. They largely stay away from him.

The catch there is do you move KP up into the box to get him more involved and get him some stats, while playing a lesser quality player deep?

Or do you take the lower stat numbers but that inherent ability to shut down the deep play?


Most fans do not understand the difference, they look at stats and base their evaluation off them. If KP is not getting interceptions, then he isnt producing.

Like arguing that Revis in 2010 was a useless player. Completely ignoring the fact that he shut down everyone he played against.

Production for a defensive player is not defined by their stats, but by the stats of the offensive players they are against.

Neverend
07-25-2012, 06:18 PM
A lot of us didnt need Witten to confirm what we saw on tape. KP is an exceptional deep safety. Teams rarely throw deep if he is back there. They largely stay away from him.

The catch there is do you move KP up into the box to get him more involved and get him some stats, while playing a lesser quality player deep?

Or do you take the lower stat numbers but that inherent ability to shut down the deep play?


Most fans do not understand the difference, they look at stats and base their evaluation off them. If KP is not getting interceptions, then he isnt producing.

Like arguing that Revis in 2010 was a useless player. Completely ignoring the fact that he shut down everyone he played against.

Production for a defensive player is not defined by their stats, but by the stats of the offensive players they are against.

Me personally, I always believed KP was playing at a high level regardless of what whitten said. I always thought he had an excellent year in 2010. It seemed like the perception of him on these boards was that the staff protected him and he struggled during 2010. As if the brent celek play was engraved in people's heads. I could literally count the number of terrible plays KP had on my hand in 2010, because it happened so rarely that they stick out in memory. He's been excellent these least 2 years

Excellent point there with the revis thing. I'm praying the giants resign him, Im not sure how much the giants value the guy.