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JacksGiant76
04-03-2012, 10:00 PM
Just curious, I know this guy has quite a few red flags but is definitely a top 15 talent. I'm curious if he's still even on the Giants boards at this point, but if he is, and he slips down to us at 32, what you guys think?

Personally, when he played at Florida, he held AJ Green and another top NFL reciever now ( can't think of his name ) under 100 yards, both of them combined. I think the guy has the tools to be a great corner, it's just the red flags obviously.

But anyways, he's definitely the type of player that could very easily drop down to us and to be honest, I think the secondary is one of the weakest , if not the weakest unit we have. Beyond Webster, everyone else is unproven although I think Prince will be solid.

gmen0820
04-03-2012, 10:07 PM
You're thinking Julio Jones, as the other receiver.

Kase-1
04-04-2012, 02:31 PM
As much as I would LOVE to have him playing for us on the field, I would be nervous about him in NY off the field. The kid loves the Kush, he's gotta move to a state with it available 'medically'.... Just look at what happened to Jerome Simpson

GMENAGAIN
04-04-2012, 02:42 PM
Not really the Giants style to pick a kid like that in the first round . . . .

Kase-1
04-04-2012, 02:46 PM
Not really the Giants style to pick a kid like that in the first round . . . .Agreed, we usually dont look at players with 'character issues' in the top of the draft

As much as I would like Jenkins we're not getting him, just like I wanted Jimmy Smith from Colorado but his red flags were too much of a deterrent for us in the 1st.... Hell this is NY, temptations for athletes are EVERYWHERE at any time of day or night, we wouldnt risk it

GMENAGAIN
04-04-2012, 03:04 PM
Not really the Giants style to pick a kid like that in the first round . . . .Agreed, we usually dont look at players with 'character issues' in the top of the draft

As much as I would like Jenkins we're not getting him, just like I wanted Jimmy Smith from Colorado but his red flags were too much of a deterrent for us in the 1st.... Hell this is NY, temptations for athletes are EVERYWHERE at any time of day or night, we wouldnt risk it
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Did you listen to Bill Polianthis morningon Sirius? He talked about how teams take these kinds of "red flags" into account when making draft picks.It was pretty interesting. He said that he basically disregarded the normal types of college stuff that the media would blow out of proportion -- drinking too much beer, traffic/parking tickets, a fight here or there . . . . .</P>


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slipknottin
04-04-2012, 03:06 PM
Did you listen to Bill Polian*this morning*on Sirius?* He talked about how teams take these kinds of "red flags" into account when making draft picks.**It was pretty interesting.* He said that he basically disregarded the normal types of college stuff that the media would blow out of proportion -- drinking too much beer, traffic/parking tickets, a fight here or there . . . .

Well first off, the colts have been a horrible drafting team for some time.

Second, the stuff the media blows out of proportion is one thing, but the stuff the media knows nothing about is another. Often times where theres smoke theres fire. Stuff that really does matter a ton to teams isnt even known to the media.

In any case, the giants draft clean players the first couple rounds. Always have. I dont think any of us can recall a single first round pick the giants that have had that wasent clean coming out.

Kase-1
04-04-2012, 03:13 PM
Not really the Giants style to pick a kid like that in the first round . . . .Agreed, we usually dont look at players with 'character issues' in the top of the draft

As much as I would like Jenkins we're not getting him, just like I wanted Jimmy Smith from Colorado but his red flags were too much of a deterrent for us in the 1st.... Hell this is NY, temptations for athletes are EVERYWHERE at any time of day or night, we wouldnt risk it
</p>


Did you listen to Bill Polianthis morningon Sirius? He talked about how teams take these kinds of "red flags" into account when making draft picks.It was pretty interesting. He said that he basically disregarded the normal types of college stuff that the media would blow out of proportion -- drinking too much beer, traffic/parking tickets, a fight here or there . . . . .</p>


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</p>I dont have Sirius, but it sounds like as long as you arent Maurice Clarett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Clarett)then you're in the clear

But we all make mistakes younger in life, its up to the individual to mature... But a strong coaching staff and strong locker room doesnt hurt at all, ESPECIALLY in a city like ours where the 'temptations' are all around us

Kase-1
04-04-2012, 03:17 PM
Did you listen to Bill Polianthis morningon Sirius? He talked about how teams take these kinds of "red flags" into account when making draft picks.It was pretty interesting. He said that he basically disregarded the normal types of college stuff that the media would blow out of proportion -- drinking too much beer, traffic/parking tickets, a fight here or there . . . .

Well first off, the colts have been a horrible drafting team for some time.

Second, the stuff the media blows out of proportion is one thing, but the stuff the media knows nothing about is another. Often times where theres smoke theres fire. Stuff that really does matter a ton to teams isnt even known to the media.

In any case, the giants draft clean players the first couple rounds. Always have. I dont think any of us can recall a single first round pick the giants that have had that wasent clean coming out.To be a star football player at an SEC school and get kicked out you have to do some REAL bad stuff like body the deans daughter or let a tiger loose on the 'Tri-Lams'... They LOOOVE their college ball down there

http://www.myremoteradio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lll-02.jpg

GMenNY21
04-04-2012, 03:46 PM
He has a lot of talent, he's Asante Samuel 2.0 but better in run coverage .. that said, reese probably wouldn't take him for reasons others stated

GMENAGAIN
04-04-2012, 03:54 PM
Did you listen to Bill Polianthis morningon Sirius? He talked about how teams take these kinds of "red flags" into account when making draft picks.It was pretty interesting. He said that he basically disregarded the normal types of college stuff that the media would blow out of proportion -- drinking too much beer, traffic/parking tickets, a fight here or there . . . . Well first off, the colts have been a horrible drafting team for some time. Second, the stuff the media blows out of proportion is one thing, but the stuff the media knows nothing about is another. Often times where theres smoke theres fire. Stuff that really does matter a ton to teams isnt even known to the media. In any case, the giants draft clean players the first couple rounds. Always have. I dont think any of us can recall a single first round pick the giants that have had that wasent clean coming out.</P>


Who said that the Colts have drafted well? </P>


All I said that was that it was interesting to hear the thoughts of a recent insider (as opposed to someposer . . . ahem) on the issue. </P>


I also did not say that I thought that th Giants would draft a guy with these types of "red flags" in the first round.</P>


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lawl
04-04-2012, 04:11 PM
Red flags aside, he's too short for us.

Neverend
04-04-2012, 08:48 PM
Red flags aside, he's too short for us.

Marvin Austin's arm length was apparently too short for the Giants as well

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 08:50 PM
Red flags aside, he's too short for us.

Marvin Austin's arm length was apparently too short for the Giants as well

Anything over 32" is fine for interior guys.

Jay Alford had the same arm length as Austin

Neverend
04-04-2012, 09:01 PM
Red flags aside, he's too short for us.

Marvin Austin's arm length was apparently too short for the Giants as well

Anything over 32" is fine for interior guys.

Jay Alford had the same arm length as Austin

True, but only generally. Again, its believed by pretty much anyone the giants love their defensive lineman to have huge wingspans. Reese even said it on the podium at the combine that year. He values plus arm length in a defensive lineman the most. Austin's 6'1 with 32 inch arms.

Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

Just proving an example of the Giants making an exception to drafting a player they feel has great talent regardless if he doesn't offer ideal qualities in what they prefer. Taking away the character concerns, Jenkins could absolutely fit that category.

dave56dj
04-04-2012, 09:19 PM
Why is anyone comparing a guys arm length to Alford - how is that a good measure - the guy had an awesome sack in the superbowl then failed to accomplish anything else.

And are you joking when saying JPP struggles at pass rush from the inside - the guy had 16.5 sacks - it has little to do with arm size and more to do with being clogged up with a center and a guard. He was placed at the takle spot in most 3 man rushes - not sure how not being able to get through 2-3 lineman makes him a bad pass rusher from the inside. The guy is one of the best pass rushers in the league and those guys are kept on the outside (most of the time) for a reason.

Neverend
04-04-2012, 09:31 PM
And are you joking when saying JPP struggles at pass rush from the inside - the guy had 16.5 sacks - it has little to do with arm size and more to do with being clogged up with a center and a guard.

Trust me, you must not have been around here very much during the regular season as peeps were always complaining about that. When JPP is lined up inside he is less effective and we're doing a favor for the opponents. He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker. The best interior rushers in the NFL get into contact quickly against interior lineman and overwhelm with combination of power and burst on contact or they split gaps with first step quickness. Thats why Austin was such a good pass rusher inside in college.

Of course you're rebuttal to this is going to be that "he had 16.5 sacks hes a great inside pass rusher!"

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 09:50 PM
Why is anyone comparing a guys arm length to Alford - how is that a good measure - the guy had an awesome sack in the superbowl then failed to accomplish anything else.

Huh? The comparison was about giants draft history, had absolutely nothing to do with how a guy pans out.



And are you joking when saying JPP struggles at pass rush from the inside - the guy had 16.5 sacks - it has little to do with arm size and more to do with being clogged up with a center and a guard.

Well JPP wasent as good inside, that part is clearly obvious. Generally the bowling ball type guys do better inside, thats why Tuck does well there. He bounces around off everyone but somehow manages to stay on his feet.

dave56dj
04-04-2012, 10:06 PM
1) Wait - because guys in this room say he is not good inside and because they said it during the middle of the year means its true? Ok news to me. Tuck has been a force inside but JPP was placed there in most 3 man rushes - there are no players in the league who are successful rushing from the inside at this spot. Tuck was often used as a rover on blitz packages or as a tackle in 4 man rushes a spot JPP was only put in a handful of times.

2) Thanks for giving me my second argument of 16.5 sacks - which means little to you but is actually a better year then Osi or tuck has ever had and so was his 86 tackles. Its simpler then your making it - iso JPP and your gold - put him on 2-3 protectors and your in trouble. He can do it from the inside and out. But yes he will struggle in the middle in 3 man rushes and the middle man always does.

I tend to believe that the pass rusher who has dominated every other pass rusher we've had since Strey would be just as solid on the inside as lesser pass rushers but certainly most effective on the outside. That said it was his second year - and he is super raw and yet he still had a better year then osi or tuck (two of my favorite players) ever had - and yes most was on the outside. Perhaps he isn't less effective perhaps he just needs more time to get acquainted with the technique and then he will excel as he has done everywhere else.

And while it matters none i have been on these boards for years mid season - post and offeseason. Analysts bickered about JPP being wasted in the middle but the bigger issue seemed to be JPP on the inside on a 3 man rush.

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 10:10 PM
strahan hated playing inside. And eventually just refused to do it anymore.

Inside you dont get double/triple teamed anymore than you do outside in a three man rush.

But him not being as effective inside isnt a knock on him. He is one of the best DEs in the league. They dont all have to be excellent everywhere on the line.

Neverend
04-04-2012, 10:16 PM
Sigh, Dave you just don't get it.

You see it as an insult to JPP. It's not. You can keep telling me his stats, how much he's the greatest pass rusher since stray, etc but it won't change my opinion

Maybe using analogies will help. For example, you can argue its pretty much a fact that a corner back that is about 5'10 can change directions quicker than a cornerback that is 6'3.

Furthermore for instance, Ronde Barber is better at changing directions than Antonio Cromartie. Why? Because Barber is smaller whereas Cromartie has such a huge wingspan and long limbs its hard for him to change directions quicker than a man much smaller than him. Now, does that mean Barber is a better corner than Cromartie? No. Is that a shot at Cromartie? No, its not a shot at Cromartie. Its just a fact, it isn't his fault hes built the way he is. Its not really a criticism

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

You need to be more open minded and less insecure. I'm not discrediting JPP's talents by any means. Just saying, a pass rusher of his length should always be on the outside the same way a cornerback with Antonio Cromartie's length should always be at the line using his length as an advantage in press coverage.

I hope we're on the same page now, man. On a side, I disagree that you can't get pressure with 3-man rushes. Perry Fewell seems to agree with this statement as well. But thats another argument for another time

NY4U2
04-04-2012, 10:34 PM
This conversation just makes me salivate thinking about our (healthy) D-line

DT - DE = Apples- Oranges JPP is a natural DE average @ DT

And the op subject.. If Reese thinks his off field issues are worth the risk He could pull the trigger at the bottom of the first... this guy is the best corner in the draft, but has 3 arrests and been kicked off a team to say the least :(

dave56dj
04-04-2012, 10:49 PM
Always nice having an argument on these boards and instead of having a back and forth you go with the self righteous " sigh you dont get it" and be less "insecure." Personal attacks are always a better way of improving your arguments. I played high school ball and then D3 - which doesnt make me even close to an expert but try not to act holier then thou as we are writing on a message board not coaching the giants.

As for the rest of your actual argument I would agree that Fewell did use the 3 man rush - by midseason PFF had qb's (verse gmen) rated at a 100+. I havent seen the stat since then but man that doesn't seem very effective. And my point was not to bash the 3 man rush but rather to bash putting JPP on the inside on that set.

Thanks for constantly pointing out Marvin Austin - a player who has yet to play an NFL snap - couldnt you at least point to a guy like Suh in there - oh wait he has longer arms 33 1'2 wouldnt work. At 33 inches tucks arms arent exactly short. Still I would agree certain players are more adept at certain positions. And Austins frame lends itself to tackle more naturally then JPP. My point (as annoying and unintelligent as it is to you) is that JPP is a freakish athlete and moving him to the inside from time to time may work as well.

If you want to use more of your argument you can claim that Fewell agreed with you and used the 3 man set. With the injuries he seemed to think JPP could be effective inside as well - therefore he played there from time to time. I am willing to admit he is most effective outside, but he is such a dynamic athlete I think he is a guy who can best be served with several looks with most snaps coming at end.

Neverend
04-04-2012, 11:12 PM
Your point? JPP's such a freakish athlete moving him inside may work from time to time? The irony. You're backtracking.

Your initial points and arguments:


You[/b]"]And are you joking when saying JPP struggles at pass rush from the inside - the guy had 16.5 sacks


You[/b]"]it has little to do with arm size and more to do with being clogged up with a center and a guard

I destroyed both of your flawed points by explaining how an interior rusher can excel. To repeat, you can split the G/C with a good get off burst and getting "skinny" or get pressure by coming into contact immediately with a lineman right away and overwhelming w/ combo of burst + power.

You pretty much ignore this point and say no player in the league can get pressure against 3 man rushes, which is a very silly statement to make. Then you go on and tell me JPP's stats and how dominant he is, which disputes nothing. Then you try to make the logic that because JPP excels on the outside theres no way you can say he cant be good on the inside. Then you actually somewhat agree with me (contradicting yourself) and tell me he needs to improve his technique in that area

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside. I used another physical freak of an athlete (Antonio Cromartie) and how he shouldn't be playing off but instead at the line because of his length and lack of COD. Of course you end it off with this:


You[/b]"]Still I would agree certain players are more adept at certain positions. And Austins frame lends itself to tackle more naturally then JPP. My point (as annoying and unintelligent as it is to you) is that JPP is a freakish athlete and moving him to the inside from time to time may work as well.

You backtrack from some initial points and now say he "may" be a good pass rusher inside and admit that his frame/wingspan isnt ideal for the inside. You're actually supporting my argument here

Good to see you've come around. You easily lost this argument. JPP should never be pass rushing inside.

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 11:22 PM
Thanks for constantly pointing out Marvin Austin - a player who has yet to play an NFL snap* - couldnt you at least point to a guy like Suh in there - oh wait he has longer arms 33 1'2 wouldnt work. At 33 inches tucks arms arent exactly short.

JPP at a half inch taller, and with nearly 2" longer arms has 2.5" more length than Tuck. Which is a huge amount.

If we want other examples similar to Austin. Geno Atkins. 6'1 with 32" arms.

Shorter arms make for more compact and more power inside. Effective inside pass rushers with arms over 33" are pretty rare.

dave56dj
04-04-2012, 11:23 PM
Im happy your pleased with your alleged win.

Weird that fewell used him inside - guess you disagree with him too.

And show me some tape of ANY interior rusher consistently getting pressure on a 3 man rush.

I was simply trying to be the bigger person and agree with you in some areas, but ultimately i think jpp can be effective rushing from any position - except as the nose or tackle in a 3 man rush.

What do you say about suh having longer arms? Since you prefer using not to tested players like Austin - how bout the tackle taken ahead of him Fairley who happened to have the same arm length as JPP -weird. If arm length were the only measure of an inside rusher youd have missed out on many studs.

Neverend
04-04-2012, 11:44 PM
Im happy your pleased with your alleged win.

Weird that fewell used him inside - guess you disagree with him too.

And show me some tape of ANY interior rusher consistently getting pressure on a 3 man rush.

I was simply trying to be the bigger person and agree with you in some areas, but ultimately i think jpp can be effective rushing from any position* - except as the nose or tackle in a 3 man rush.

What do you say about suh having longer arms?* Since you prefer using not to tested players like Austin - how bout the tackle taken ahead of him Fairley who happened to have the same arm length as JPP -weird. If arm length were the only measure of an inside rusher youd have missed out on many studs.


Like I have access to tape. I said it twice already, must I repeat it again? Goes to show you haven't been really paying attention, dude. You can get consistent pressure with a 3 man rush by SPLITTING the G/C. In order to this, you need to have a good get off quickness and the ability to get skinny. Thats why defensive lineman like Fletcher Cox are in high demand this draft. Its how Robbins used to collapse the pocket against double teams when he was a Giant. You seriously can not call yourself a football fan and say a defensive lineman can't get pressure with 3 vs 5 man looks.

Like slipknottin alluded too already, Tuck has special balance and body contorting skills. When asked about a three man rush, I remember Fewell praised Tuck's ability to beat a double team. Like his sack against the eagles in philly back in 2010

Interesting you use Fairley. Thats why (ignoring his dumb head), talent wise he was a top 3 pick. Its rare to have interior defensive lineman with his length be as explosive as he is. Those interior rush guys are extremely rare and only come out of the draft so often.

Since we're on the subject, Michael Brockers had I believe a 1.78 10-yard split at the combine which was dreadful. Why? Because the man has a phenomenal wingspan. He's a flawless, elite run defender and a good power rusher but as evidenced by his 40 he is not someone who is going to be a great pass rusher in the NFL.

But anyway, you believe JPP is least effective as the nose in a 3 man rush. If you honestly believed that from the beginning then I have no idea why you sounded so insulted when I said JPP can struggle pass rushing from the inside a little. This is going nowhere, seems like we're just going to keep repeating ourselves.

NY4U2
04-04-2012, 11:49 PM
DT - DE = Apples- Oranges JPP is a natural DE average @ DT



Prototype DTs tend to be bulkier, stronger, they are not ment to get mad
sacks but stuff the inside run eat up 2 or more blockers and cause
pressure up the middle (straight line push/rush)



While DEs are taller and quicker (long arms preferred) and are ment to cause the most pressure getting more sacks than DTs



This is why DE and OLBs are the sack leaders. So it goes to show that DE
will naturally get more sacks that DTs. So trying to determine weather
JPP is good or not @ DT is very difficult to do with stats. If he's
eating up 2-3 blockers and stopping the inside run, then hes doing an
excellent job..

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 11:51 PM
If he's
eating up 2-3 blockers and stopping the inside run, then hes doing an
excellent job..

They dont put JPP at DT on passing downs to eat up blockers and stop the run. Hes there to get after the QB.

NY4U2
04-04-2012, 11:55 PM
If he's
eating up 2-3 blockers and stopping the inside run, then hes doing an
excellent job..

They dont put JPP at DT on passing downs to eat up blockers and stop the run. Hes there to get after the QB.


Thats easy to say every lineman is there to get after the QB......

slipknottin
04-04-2012, 11:57 PM
Thats easy to say every lineman is there to get after the QB......


On passing downs they are. Nobody is on the field to tie up blockers.

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 12:05 AM
Thats easy to say every lineman is there to get after the QB......


On passing downs they are. Nobody is on the field to tie up blockers.



HUH? now that doesn't even make sense come on Slip "ya slippin" you can do better than that..

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:06 AM
HUH? now that doesn't even make since come on Slip "ya slippin" you can do better than that..



what doesnt make sense? You think coaches send guys out on passing downs to just get blocked?

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 12:18 AM
HUH? now that doesn't even make since come on Slip "ya slippin" you can do better than that..



what doesnt make sense? You think coaches send guys out on passing downs to just get blocked?

What your saying is called a Non sequitur. Everyone knows a d lineman job is to get after QBs and make tackles. I didn't say the coaches put him @ DT to eat up blocks i said if he's eating up 2-3 blockers and making tackles on the inside run he's doing an excellent job @ DT because now DEs may have 1 on 1ns on the outside (baring a chip or TE block) if a DT only demands 1 blocker then that leaves more o linemen to block other rushers... and yes i do think coaches look for players (draft, FA) and actually send them out there to eat up blocks, pressure upt he middle and make tackles so that others can have a better chance at getting sacks.....
<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading"><span dir="auto">
</span></h1>

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:22 AM
not sure if i follow that entire sentence, but if you are saying the giants look for players that draw double teams than I agree completely.

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 12:34 AM
not sure if i follow that entire sentence, but if you are saying the giants look for players that draw double teams than I agree completely.


Thats why i said "If he's
eating up 2-3 blockers and stopping the inside run, then hes doing an
excellent job.." about JPP @ DT. in my opinion i think he does a good job in most of the situations he's put in and a great job over all.... he's still young too.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:36 AM
You keep bringing up this stopping the run thing.

We were talking about playing DT on passing downs. 3rd and long.

There is no run to stop, except the occasional draw play.

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 12:41 AM
You keep bringing up this stopping the run thing.

We were talking about playing DT on passing downs. 3rd and long.

There is no run to stop, except the occasional draw play.

Actually i was talking about a DTs job in general you brought up passing downs I said nothing about downs, just differences between DTs and DEs and a correlation to how JPP is used..sorry Slip ya slipped again....

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:44 AM
Actually i was talking about a DTs job in general you brought up passing downs I said nothing about downs,* just differences between DTs and DEs and a correlation to how JPP is used..sorry Slip ya slipped again....


We all know the differences between the positions, but the conversation was about JPP being moved to DT and not being as effective rushing the QB.

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 12:52 AM
Actually i was talking about a DTs job in general you brought up passing downs I said nothing about downs, just differences between DTs and DEs and a correlation to how JPP is used..sorry Slip ya slipped again....


We all know the differences between the positions, but the conversation was about JPP being moved to DT and not being as effective rushing the QB.

My point was making assumptions about his effectiveness (@DT) based on stat doesn't tell the whole story ( by comparing what DTs do vs. DEs). Thus leading to me saying "If he's
eating up 2-3 blockers and stopping the inside run, then hes doing an
excellent job"

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:54 AM
Thus leading to me saying "If he's
eating up 2-3 blockers and stopping the inside run, then hes doing an
excellent job"

And eating up blockers and stopping the run is completely irrelevant to a conversation about how well he rushes the Qb from the DT position.

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 01:02 AM
Thus leading to me saying "If he's
eating up 2-3 blockers and stopping the inside run, then hes doing an
excellent job"

And eating up blockers and stopping the run is completely irrelevant to a conversation about how well he rushes the Qb from the DT position.


Again......
<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading"><span dir="auto">Non sequitur!!!</span></h1>

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:03 AM
Again......
<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading"><span dir="auto">Non sequitur!!!</span></h1>

Ill let you explain how run defense and trying up blockers is relevant to a conversation about JPP rushing the QB from the DT position.

If anyone is guilty of non sequitur, it would be you.

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 01:09 AM
Again......
<h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading"><span dir="auto">Non sequitur!!!</span></h1>

Ill let you explain how run defense and trying up blockers is relevant to a conversation about JPP rushing the QB from the DT position.

If anyone is guilty of non sequitur, it would be you.

Either they don't know, don't show, or don't care about being a menace
to South Central while drinking your juice in the hood. That's what it's
all about.

Just reread my reply (on this subject) and you'll see how it is relevant to what was said before it. I think your a confrontationist...(no dis tho.. do you)

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:12 AM
Just reread my reply (on this subject) and you'll see how it is relevant to what was said* before it. I think your a confrontationist...(no dis tho.. do you)*


The conversation was about JPP rushing the QB from DT.... (not sure if you actually ever read the thread)

You come in and say something like "its hard to measure with statistics, if hes tying up blockers and stuffing the run hes doing a good job"

Which is not relevant at all to a conversation about rushing the QB.

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 01:34 AM
Just reread my reply (on this subject) and you'll see how it is relevant to what was said before it. I think your a confrontationist...(no dis tho.. do you)


The conversation was about JPP rushing the QB from DT.... (not sure if you actually ever read the thread)

You come in and say something like "its hard to measure with statistics, if hes tying up blockers and stuffing the run hes doing a good job"

Which is not relevant at all to a conversation about rushing the QB.

lol there you go again.... how is it not relevant the conversation is about effectiveness @ DT It started with JPP effectiveness @ DT (arm sizes, comparisons etc..) some1 mentioned sacks and how he's more effective from the DE position. So how is what I said not relevant? Saying "rushing the QB from the DT pos" Does not make the DT's job different. Even if it's JPP..

But i digress my wife is calling me to bed.. also work in the a.m. east coast here.. nice convo tho Slip we'll do it again sometime.. lol

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:38 AM
lol there you go again.... how is it not relevant the conversation is about effectiveness @ DT It started with JPP effectiveness @ DT (arm sizes, comparisons etc..)

Effectiveness rushing the QB from the DT position.

Are you now saying that the DTs role is always to stop the run and tie up blockers? Pass or run, no difference in role?

NY4U2
04-05-2012, 01:41 AM
lol there you go again.... how is it not relevant the conversation is about effectiveness @ DT It started with JPP effectiveness @ DT (arm sizes, comparisons etc..)

Effectiveness rushing the QB from the DT position.

Are you now saying that the DTs role is always to stop the run and tie up blockers? Pass or run, no difference in role?


Nope i didnt say that (sigh)....anyway g night slip.. you gotta find some1 else to play with...lol

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 01:43 AM
Saying "rushing the QB from the DT pos" Does not make the DT's job different.

then explain what you are saying.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 09:06 AM
Your point? JPP's such a freakish athlete moving him inside may work from time to time? The irony. You're backtracking.

Your initial points and arguments:


You[/b]"]And are you joking when saying JPP struggles at pass rush from the inside - the guy had 16.5 sacks


You[/b]"]it has little to do with arm size and more to do with being clogged up with a center and a guard

I destroyed both of your flawed points by explaining how an interior rusher can excel. To repeat, you can split the G/C with a good get off burst and getting "skinny" or get pressure by coming into contact immediately with a lineman right away and overwhelming w/ combo of burst + power.

You pretty much ignore this point and say no player in the league can get pressure against 3 man rushes, which is a very silly statement to make. Then you go on and tell me JPP's stats and how dominant he is, which disputes nothing. Then you try to make the logic that because JPP excels on the outside theres no way you can say he cant be good on the inside. Then you actually somewhat agree with me (contradicting yourself) and tell me he needs to improve his technique in that area

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside. I used another physical freak of an athlete (Antonio Cromartie) and how he shouldn't be playing off but instead at the line because of his length and lack of COD. Of course you end it off with this:


You[/b]"]Still I would agree certain players are more adept at certain positions. And Austins frame lends itself to tackle more naturally then JPP. My point (as annoying and unintelligent as it is to you) is that JPP is a freakish athlete and moving him to the inside from time to time may work as well.

You backtrack from some initial points and now say he "may" be a good pass rusher inside and admit that his frame/wingspan isnt ideal for the inside. You're actually supporting my argument here

Good to see you've come around. You easily lost this argument. JPP should never be pass rushing inside.

i find it hilarous some one is saying to be effective as a dt as a de, he needs to engage the OL quickly. How would having long *** arms like JPP mean it takes slower to engage an OL? If anything, he's able to engage an OL quicker than a DT with shorter arms...

and its also silly how u've classically overlooked that Tuck is used as a DT to stunt, which actually means he isn't trying to engage the OL as quick as possible. JPP could be a beast on the inside, he just needs time, he is still so raw as a DE even...Canty has super long arms, he seems to do just fine creating pressure...

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 09:09 AM
HUH? now that doesn't even make since come on Slip "ya slippin" you can do better than that..



what doesnt make sense? You think coaches send guys out on passing downs to just get blocked?

this is just asenine now. do u really believe what u just said????? what about when we run our classic stunts?? U see the safety vs NE in the SB, or the sacks vs Dallas week 17, or a majority of our sacks in fact?? Tuck is actually used to tie up blockers to create gaps for Osi/JPP to come crashing through...some people just HAVE to feel they are right and post ridiculous claims as a support to their stance when its just flat wrong

Neverend
04-05-2012, 10:28 AM
i find it hilarous some one is saying to be effective as a dt as a de, he needs to engage the OL quickly. How would having long *** arms like JPP mean it takes slower to engage an OL? If anything, he's able to engage an OL quicker than a DT with shorter arms...

How does it make it slower than someone with shorter arms? You can't be serious.

Having longer arms allow him to be a more effective power rusher in that offensive lineman can't get into his chest because of his length (esp if the o-lineman has short arms). But having narrow, mammoth long arms like canty/jpp makes it hard to coil and explode out of your stance fast with a low center of gravity. If they try to do it extremely quickly, they'll likely lose their balance or lose leverage in the process.


and its also silly how u've classically overlooked that Tuck is used as a DT to stunt, which actually means he isn't trying to engage the OL as quick as possible. JPP could be a beast on the inside, he just needs time, he is still so raw as a DE even...Canty has super long arms, he seems to do just fine creating pressure...

There's nothing silly about not mentioning twists/stunts because thats completely different and has nothing to do with this discussion.

It's not to say its impossible to get consistent pressure inside, but especially with 3 man rushes you are absolutely better having JPP on the outside 100% of the time. Its hard to split and beat the G/C being exclusively a power-type rusher. Just gonna predict your response right now and say you'll disregard everything in my post, read what you want to read, and twist it into looking like I'm insulting JPP/canty.

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 11:51 AM
what about when we run our classic stunts??

stunts are not designed to have one player tie up blockers. They are designed to confuse blockers and get one or both rushers free.

Let me put it this way, take that stunt where you thought tuck was used to merely tie up blockers.

Would that stunt be even more effective if Tuck got past his blockers as well?

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:29 PM
i find it hilarous some one is saying to be effective as a dt as a de, he needs to engage the OL quickly. How would having long *** arms like JPP mean it takes slower to engage an OL? If anything, he's able to engage an OL quicker than a DT with shorter arms...

How does it make it slower than someone with shorter arms? You can't be serious.

Having longer arms allow him to be a more effective power rusher in that offensive lineman can't get into his chest because of his length (esp if the o-lineman has short arms). But having narrow, mammoth long arms like canty/jpp makes it hard to coil and explode out of your stance fast with a low center of gravity. If they try to do it extremely quickly, they'll likely lose their balance or lose leverage in the process.


and its also silly how u've classically overlooked that Tuck is used as a DT to stunt, which actually means he isn't trying to engage the OL as quick as possible. JPP could be a beast on the inside, he just needs time, he is still so raw as a DE even...Canty has super long arms, he seems to do just fine creating pressure...

There's nothing silly about not mentioning twists/stunts because thats completely different and has nothing to do with this discussion.

It's not to say its impossible to get consistent pressure inside, but especially with 3 man rushes you are absolutely better having JPP on the outside 100% of the time. Its hard to split and beat the G/C being exclusively a power-type rusher. Just gonna predict your response right now and say you'll disregard everything in my post, read what you want to read, and twist it into looking like I'm insulting JPP/canty.

now ur the one backtracking...no one claimed JPP wasn't more effective on the outside...you just created flawed reasons why JPP or players with "long arms" aren't good on the inside, lmfao

edit- and u cant be serious in saying players with long arms engage OL slower than players with shorter arms...i swear some people feel the need to show an acumen or intelligence better than others and will actually start to believe their rediculous claims...

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:31 PM
what about when we run our classic stunts??

stunts are not designed to have one player tie up blockers. They are designed to confuse blockers and get one or both rushers free.

Let me put it this way, take that stunt where you thought tuck was used to merely tie up blockers.

Would that stunt be even more effective if Tuck got past his blockers as well?

riiiiight...stunts are absolutely designed to tie up blockers. specific blockers as well. its all good, im gonna duck out of this now i dont want to get into a debate where people are creating phantom excuses. not saying your doing it really, i just find it funny that some one would use "long arms" as a reason some one isnt good playing inside...completely bogus argument

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:34 PM
riiiiight...stunts are absolutely designed to tie up blockers. specific blockers as well.

they arent. That may ultimately be what happens, but that isnt the goal. The goal is to get a guy, or ideally both guys, free to get to the QB.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:38 PM
riiiiight...stunts are absolutely designed to tie up blockers. specific blockers as well.

they arent. That may ultimately be what happens, but that isnt the goal. The goal is to get a guy, or ideally both guys, free to get to the QB.

u can think whatever u'd like. i personally believe stunts are used to create gaps by taking a DL to engage a specific OL or two, off a lil bit of deception, to create ally's.

and maybe u'd better coach our DL guys bc when they run stunts, like the safety in the SB, Tuck/Canty LITERALLY went directly towards an OL, not even the QB, but the OL. after the play even, Tuck explained to Fewell why he left the OL which I inferred that his objective wasnt even to necessarily get pressure or at least his first objective wasnt to get pressure but engage the OL...i dunno if u ever played the game, but i know for a FACT DC will coach the DL to engage OL on stunts...in fact the reasons why a stunt is so successful is u confuse the assignments of the OL by having a DE or DT engage or take the responsibility of an OL that he typically doesn't take...like i said, no need to debate im ducking out, u can believe whatever u'd like

Neverend
04-05-2012, 12:39 PM
now ur the one backtracking...no one claimed JPP wasn't more effective on the outside...you just created flawed reasons why JPP or players with "long arms" aren't good on the inside, lmfao

Ah, twisting my words. When I say JPP should never be used inside, clearly I'm saying he should always be on the outside. Anyone with a brain can figure that out

You want to talk about "flawed" reasons? This is coming from someone who just talked about stunts in an argument about a player pass rushing inside. When you give up pressure on stunts its more about the offensive lineman not being able to recognize the stunt and keeping his head on a swivel. It has nothing to do with whether or not a pass rusher can excel inside or not. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that





edit- and u cant be serious in saying players with long arms engage OL slower than players with shorter arms...i swear some people feel the need to show an acumen or intelligence better than others and will actually start to believe their rediculous claims...

Seriously? Why don't you try to dispute my argument why a pass rusher with narrow, long arms engages slower than with a pass rusher that has shorter arms instead of just saying "u cant be serious". Oh, thats right, you can't dispute anything I said because you can't

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:46 PM
now ur the one backtracking...no one claimed JPP wasn't more effective on the outside...you just created flawed reasons why JPP or players with "long arms" aren't good on the inside, lmfao

Ah, twisting my words. When I say JPP should never be used inside, clearly I'm saying he should always be on the outside. Anyone with a brain can figure that out

You want to talk about "flawed" reasons? This is coming from someone who just talked about stunts in an argument about a player pass rushing inside. When you give up pressure on stunts its more about the offensive lineman not being able to recognize the stunt and keeping his head on a swivel. It has nothing to do with whether or not a pass rusher can excel inside or not. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that





edit- and u cant be serious in saying players with long arms engage OL slower than players with shorter arms...i swear some people feel the need to show an acumen or intelligence better than others and will actually start to believe their rediculous claims...

Seriously? Why don't you try to dispute my argument why a pass rusher with narrow, long arms engages slower than with a pass rusher that has shorter arms instead of just saying "u cant be serious". Oh, thats right, you can't dispute anything I said because you can't

no need to be jumpy. u've been outed. u said JPP struggles on the interior bc he has long arms, LMFAO.

what was I wrong about on stunts again? lol this is great u keep digging urself deeper and deeper all the while thinking ur proving ur some sort of genius. LMFAO

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:51 PM
and maybe u'd better coach our DL guys bc when they run stunts, like the safety in the SB, Tuck/Canty LITERALLY went directly towards an OL, not even the QB, but the OL. after the play even, Tuck explained to Fewell why he left the OL which I inferred that his objective wasnt even to necessarily get pressure or at least his first objective wasnt to get pressure but engage the OL..

Right, but engaging and trying to get blocked is not at all the same thing. If for instance the stunt goes off and neither player gets free. Does that mean they should just stand there and say they failed? Obviously not, they still have to beat their blockers and attempt to get to the QB.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:52 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.



ooh my bad...oops i didnt know you wear a "I'm 'special'" hat...let me start over;

Good job. You are a special person and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You can be whatever you want to be, just put ur mind to it and work hard. Good luck at your special new school next year, there, you'll have all the support you need.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 12:52 PM
no need to be jumpy. u've been outed. u said JPP struggles on the interior bc he has long arms, LMFAO.

Twisting words happen to be a common theme with you. I said time and time again, someone with JPP's arm length/size isnt as great of an inside rusher than someone with shorter arm length. I used reasoning and analogies to back up my claim. You? Just insults which makes you look really sad right now


what was I wrong about on stunts again? lol this is great

That when an offensive lineman gives up pressure because he couldn't recognize a stunt has nothing do in a long arms vs short arms argument about pass rushing inside? Yeah, I'm digging the hole here.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:53 PM
and maybe u'd better coach our DL guys bc when they run stunts, like the safety in the SB, Tuck/Canty LITERALLY went directly towards an OL, not even the QB, but the OL. after the play even, Tuck explained to Fewell why he left the OL which I inferred that his objective wasnt even to necessarily get pressure or at least his first objective wasnt to get pressure but engage the OL..

Right, but engaging and trying to get blocked is not at all the same thing. If for instance the stunt goes off and neither player gets free. Does that mean they should just stand there and say they failed? Obviously not, they still have to beat their blockers and attempt to get to the QB.

i guess its fair to say that on the issue of stunts we're both correct. of course the goal is to get to the qb untouched. stunts are used to create that by confusing OL and creating mismatches. Generally tho, stunts work best when more than one OL are engaged on one DL which can create allies for a blitzer/pass rusher to come in untouched...

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 12:58 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.



ooh my bad...oops i didnt know you wear a "I'm 'special'" hat...let me start over;

Good job. You are a special person and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You can be whatever you want to be, just put ur mind to it and work hard. Good luck at your special new school next year, there, you'll have all the support you need.

oh just so no one mistakes the first 4 set of statements as mine, they came from Neverend. But dont give him a hard time either, he's "special"...

lmfao...i never thought I'd see someone use the statements "having avg arm length is actually a plus...and the rest of that babble to try and prove he's some sort of genius...and i am doing this for a point, u were so quick to dismiss the original person u were conversing with, or i should say looking down on, and implying he doesnt read and stating u know what he was going to say and how wrong he'd be...ESPECIALLY when stating the things u did, MOST avid football minds would look at u like u were a martian when u say the things u did

still cant believe some one would use long arm spans as a reason a DL engages an OL slower than a DL with shorter arms...lmfao

slipknottin
04-05-2012, 12:58 PM
. Generally tho, stunts work best when more than one OL are engaged on one DL which can create allies for a blitzer/pass rusher to come in untouched...

Right, because its highly unlikely for both players to get completely free off a stunt. If, for example, when the players twist both offensive linemen ran into each other and fell down, I dont believe one of the defensive players would just stand there at the offensive linemen he was supposed to be engaging, he would go right past after the QB.

The ultimate goal of every player on the DL in a pass rush situation is to get to the QB. (we wont get into lane discipline and contain and all that)

So the entire idea that players like JPP are put at DT in a 3 man rush just to tie up blockers is total nonsense, he is there to get to the QB. If JPP's presence and threat as a pass rusher forces the opposing offense to use a double team to block him, then that may be a positive, but that doesnt mean JPP is just there to be double teamed.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:03 PM
. Generally tho, stunts work best when more than one OL are engaged on one DL which can create allies for a blitzer/pass rusher to come in untouched...

Right, because its highly unlikely for both players to get completely free off a stunt. If, for example, when the players twist both offensive linemen ran into each other and fell down, I dont believe one of the defensive players would just stand there at the offensive linemen he was supposed to be engaging, he would go right past after the QB.

The ultimate goal of every player on the DL in a pass rush situation is to get to the QB. (we wont get into lane discipline and contain and all that)

So the entire idea that players like JPP are put at DT in a 3 man rush just to tie up blockers is total nonsense, he is there to get to the QB. If JPP's presence and threat as a pass rusher forces the opposing offense to use a double team to block him, then that may be a positive, but that doesnt mean JPP is just there to be double teamed.

well now ur just creating points and attributing them to me. I was merely stating that DL don't always try to engage the OL immediately, actually now ur proving my point i guess...my comment wasnt an analysis of JPP, but more so how out of whack a posters thoughts on interior DL was...but ur first statement proves my point even further about stunts trying to engage OL. Its highly unlikely both players get off free. BUT, if done correctly a stunt will, well its supposed to, engage the OL so that a DL comes in free...eh, this whole debate is stupid...not u just saying this isnt relevant at all to Jenkins even lol, u think he goes in the 1rst?

Neverend
04-05-2012, 01:12 PM
Your last couple of posts are a little out of the place. So I'll just address this



still cant believe some one would use long arm spans as a reason a DL engages an OL slower than a DL with shorter arms...lmfao

Since you clearly are lacking in knowledge, misinformed, and highly ignorant. I'll help educate you on the matter. I'll try to be a nice as possible without the insults. Hopefully thats enough to get a respectful response out of you but I wouldn't be surprised if I get another "wow. wtf, lmfao. i cant believe you're saying this" reply

Defensive tackles that have average to above average arm length engages quicker against G/C than a lineman with longer arms. Why?

Because, for one, they are built more lower to the ground whereas someone with JPP/Canty's arm length makes them sit into their stance much more higher

Secondly, by being lower to the ground they are able to come out their stance faster by gaining inside leverage with a lineman immediately. A defensive lineman with very narrow and long arms can't coil very fast, balance themselves in the process, and gain inside leverage because they aren't built lower to the ground in their stance in the first place. It really effects their quickness off the ball and ability to overwhelm right away with a lineman

Because of this, its harder for an interior lineman with really long arms to push the pocket immediately or split gaps and collapse the pocket. Which is the most common way to get pressure inside. Their arm length is still a major plus in terms of power moves because an offensive lineman can't get into their chest but clearly the most effective inside rushers in the nfl are the ones that get pressure immediately by pushing or collapsing the pocket.

Look at the top DT in this draft, Brockers. He has a HUGE wingspan, one of the best in years. But he's just a power rusher.

I took the benefit and time of repeating myself for you. Are you still going to come at me with insulting my opinion like a child or will you actually try to dispute something I said?

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:17 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.



ooh my bad...oops i didnt know you wear a "I'm 'special'" hat...let me start over;

Good job. You are a special person and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You can be whatever you want to be, just put ur mind to it and work hard. Good luck at your special new school next year, there, you'll have all the support you need.

not even going to acknowledge that drivel u just wrote out. DT/interior linemen, the top prospects, are scouted positively for having longer arms.

i've yet to see the GM/scout say "we HAVE to get this guy, he has short arms!" do you realize how insane ur sounding? now ur saying arm span has something to do with a player being lower to the ground...LMFAO. u made a ridiculous claim, GET OVER IT. u can try and dance around the statements u made above all you want, you still made them, and now even worse, instead of seeing how moronic you were, are trying to defend urself even further.

here comes the "you obviously dont know how to read...I know you'll respond with irrelevant points...blah blah blah"...YOUR SAYING INTERIOR LINEMEN WITH SHORTER ARMS ARE SOMEHOW BETTER THAN THOSE WITH LONGER ARMS! are you kidding me?????????//

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:19 PM
with that said, im ducking out of this thread. it isnt even about the title. u want to believe that interior DL with shorter arms somehow have an advantage of those with longer arms, cool u do u. i could care less.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 01:28 PM
not even going to acknowledge that drivel u just wrote out. DT/interior linemen, the top prospects, are scouted positively for having longer arms.

I clearly acknowledged this years top DT prospect like Michael Brockers. He has HUGE, long arms but he isn't a great pass rusher inside.


i've yet to see the GM/scout say "we HAVE to get this guy, he has short arms!" do you realize how insane ur sounding? now ur saying arm span has something to do with a player being lower to the ground...LMFAO. u made a ridiculous claim, GET OVER IT. u can try and dance around the statements u made above all you want, you still made them, and now even worse, instead of seeing how moronic you were, are trying to defend urself even further.

here comes the "you obviously dont know how to read...I know you'll respond with irrelevant points...blah blah blah"...YOUR SAYING INTERIOR LINEMEN WITH SHORTER ARMS ARE SOMEHOW BETTER THAN THOSE WITH LONGER ARMS! are you kidding me?????????//

No, I'm not kidding. Lets not twist my words entirely. I'm just talking about pass rushing, not the running game. A defensive lineman with short/above average arm length (32-33 inches) pass rushes better inside than one with long, narrow arms like JPP and Canty. I never said an interior lineman overall is better. Having longer arms gives you a superior advantage in the trenches (unless like Ngata who compensates it with great strength).

I don't see how I'm dancing around anything. You're the one dancing. You keep trying to avoid and going around replying to what I said. The only thing you can do is resort to insults and saying I keep making a dumb statement repeatedly without explaining why. Just trying to avoid arguing because you can't come up with an argument. Throughout this entire thread you've just made yourself out to look really silly -- unable to have a completely rational, civil argument.


with that said, im ducking out of this thread. it isnt even about the title. u want to believe that interior DL with shorter arms somehow have an advantage of those with longer arms, cool u do u. i could care less.

Good riddance! You could care less because you dont know how to dispute and argue with anything I said, just keep telling me I'm wrong without explaining why. You sir, are a geinus.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:34 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.





every point u've made has been dead wrong. u even admit it in ur last post. yet somehow I'm silly, and I don't know what I'm talking about...

I realized why there isnt a GM on the planet who'd go "we should take this DT over that DT bc the one we should get has shorter arms"...itd be bc he'd be laughed out of the league and fired..."DL with shorter arms fire off the line quicker than those with longer arms" LMFAO u absolutely cant make this **** up!!!lmfao

Neverend
04-05-2012, 01:37 PM
every point u've made has been dead wrong. u even admit it in ur last post. yet somehow I'm silly, and I don't know what I'm talking about...

I realized why there isnt a GM on the planet who'd go "we should take this DT over that DT bc the one we should get has shorter arms"...itd be bc he'd be laughed out of the league and fired..."DL with shorter arms fire off the line quicker than those with longer arms" LMFAO u absolutely cant make this **** up!!!lmfao

Every point I've made is "dead wrong", yet you've never even explained to me why I'm wrong but just tell me I am.

I back up my statements with plenty of reasons and even used analogies. Instead of trying to tell me why I'm wrong, you just laugh, insult me, and tell me I'm wrong with no reason

Just look at the last line of your post. It's sad. Again, you can't even tell me why I'm wrong.. just more insults and insults. Amusing...

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:41 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.





every point u've made has been dead wrong. u even admit it in ur last post. yet somehow I'm silly, and I don't know what I'm talking about...

I realized why there isnt a GM on the planet who'd go "we should take this DT over that DT bc the one we should get has shorter arms"...itd be bc he'd be laughed out of the league and fired..."DL with shorter arms fire off the line quicker than those with longer arms" LMFAO u absolutely cant make this **** up!!!lmfao

oh i'm sorry i forgot I'm dealing with a "special" mind...basically EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE ORIGINAL QUOTE IS DEAD WRONG. ur assertion that interior lineman are better than others bc they have "shorter arms" is completely ridiculous...the fact I even have to try and explain it to you is even more ridiculous...just when i thought I was out, i keep getting dragged back in...

let me sum it up for u:

elite prospects, heck prospects in general, will usually be graded better for longer arms, not shorter arms.
having shorter arms doesnt make a player burst off the line quicker, doesn't make u a better pass rusher, doesnt make u a better player in ANY regard...am i really having to explain this to someone???

Let me just agree with u so this comedy ends...yes, you are right. JPP isnt effective as an interior DL bc he has "long arms"...LMFAO

and i love how u edit ur responses to not include ur completely ludacris statements...its ok, we all know u made them...

Neverend
04-05-2012, 01:45 PM
let me sum it up for u:

elite prospects, heck prospects in general, will usually be graded better for longer arms, not shorter arms.
having shorter arms doesnt make a player burst off the line quicker, doesn't make u a better pass rusher, doesnt make u a better player in ANY regard...am i really having to explain this to someone???

I already replied to this, but I'll repeat it again.

You are right, Michael Brockers is this years top defensive tackle prospect. He has 35 inch arms and a mammoth wingspan. But he isn't a great pass rusher inside. He was even subbed off the field on passing downs for LSU last year

The other top defensive tackle prospect, Dontari Poe, has 31 inch arms. Much better pass rushing prospect, although he's a poor run defender and lacks the instincts Brockers has.

Just used your own point to disprove your argument, LOL!

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:47 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.




lmfao how did u disprove me in anything? u havent made ur statements any more valid. poe or brockers, wtf that has to do with anything? u've already made ur baseless claims and tried to pass them off as genius

edit-and is that why poe had what, 1 sack? the short arms really worked for him!

Neverend
04-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Sad, when someone is losing an argument and has to ignore or can't dispute the opposing points being made.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 01:50 PM
lmfao how did u disprove me in anything? u havent made ur statements any more valid. poe or brockers, wtf that has to do with anything?

Yeah, because you didn't state this:


You[/b]"]let me sum it up for u:

elite prospects, heck prospects in general, will usually be graded better for longer arms, not shorter arms.
having shorter arms doesnt make a player burst off the line quicker, doesn't make u a better pass rusher, doesnt make u a better player in ANY regard...am i really having to explain this to someone???

You talked about the interior lineman prospects to support your claims

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:51 PM
Sad, when someone is losing an argument and has to ignore or can't dispute the opposing points being made.

i agree, saying an interior linemen is better off having shorter arms, and that having long arms makes him slower off the line, and not as effective as a guy with shorter arms is sad.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 01:52 PM
Sad, when someone is losing an argument and has to ignore or can't dispute the opposing points being made.

i agree, saying an interior linemen is better off having shorter arms, and that having long arms makes him slower off the line, and not as effective as a guy with shorter arms is sad.

oops. i mean "special" i dont want to be politically incorrect. u can do it little guy! keep reaching for the stars. some day u may even prove that shorter arms is better than longer arms in any aspect of football

Neverend
04-05-2012, 01:53 PM
Sad, when someone is losing an argument and has to ignore or can't dispute the opposing points being made.

i agree, saying an interior linemen is better off having shorter arms, and that having long arms makes him slower off the line, and not as effective as a guy with shorter arms is sad.

Even more sad when you can't disprove it and look very silly when I destroyed your point about interior prospects and the draft

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:00 PM
Sad, when someone is losing an argument and has to ignore or can't dispute the opposing points being made.

i agree, saying an interior linemen is better off having shorter arms, and that having long arms makes him slower off the line, and not as effective as a guy with shorter arms is sad.

Even more sad when you can't disprove it and look very silly when I destroyed your point about interior prospects and the draft

u can try and change my point to suit whatever u'd like special guy, the fact ur saying that GM's prefer DL with longer arms is wrong and that u somehow proved it falls in line with the rest of ur misguided, oops I mean "special" thinking. Don't you ever give up little guy, keep on reaching for the stars! u may even one day train ur brain to play Madden on XBox where u can be a real life GM and draft all the short armed DL u'd like...hold on, give me a sec, i got to quote the post where i show every ludacris, comical statement so it shows on every page so no one makes the mistake of being politically incorrect and not realizing ur just "special"

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:01 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.




dont give him too hard a time, he's "special"

Neverend
04-05-2012, 02:04 PM
u can try and change my point to suit whatever u'd like special guy, the fact ur saying that GM's prefer DL with longer arms is wrong and that u somehow proved it falls in line with the rest of ur misguided, oops I mean "special" thinking. Don't you ever give up little guy, keep on reaching for the stars! u may even one day train ur brain to play Madden on XBox where u can be a real life GM and draft all the short armed DL u'd like...hold on, give me a sec, i got to quote the post where i show every ludacris, comical statement so it shows on every page so no one makes the mistake of being politically incorrect and not realizing ur just "special"

I never changed your point, I just destroyed it

I never said anything about GM's preferring DL with longer arms. I never said anything about GMs, period. What the hell?

I feel really bad for you. You can't come up with an argument, you backtrack when people destroy your silly points, have to insult others. and now you're brining up irrelevant and weird things out of nowhere that had nothing to do with this conversation

You really, really look bad right now

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:06 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.





lol

Neverend
04-05-2012, 02:08 PM
let me sum it up for u:

elite prospects, heck prospects in general, will usually be graded better for longer arms, not shorter arms.
having shorter arms doesnt make a player burst off the line quicker, doesn't make u a better pass rusher, doesnt make u a better player in ANY regard...am i really having to explain this to someone???


You are right, Michael Brockers is this years top defensive tackle prospect. He has 35 inch arms and a mammoth wingspan. But he isn't a great pass rusher inside. He was even subbed off the field on passing downs for LSU last year

The other top defensive tackle prospect, Dontari Poe, has 31 inch arms. Much better pass rushing prospect, although he's a poor run defender and lacks the instincts Brockers has.

Just used your own point to disprove your argument, LOL!

lulz.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:12 PM
let me sum it up for u:

elite prospects, heck prospects in general, will usually be graded better for longer arms, not shorter arms.
having shorter arms doesnt make a player burst off the line quicker, doesn't make u a better pass rusher, doesnt make u a better player in ANY regard...am i really having to explain this to someone???


You are right, Michael Brockers is this years top defensive tackle prospect. He has 35 inch arms and a mammoth wingspan. But he isn't a great pass rusher inside. He was even subbed off the field on passing downs for LSU last year

The other top defensive tackle prospect, Dontari Poe, has 31 inch arms. Much better pass rushing prospect, although he's a poor run defender and lacks the instincts Brockers has.

Just used your own point to disprove your argument, LOL!

lulz.

u really think that quote of me is wrong in any sense???????????????????????????HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA\
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAA

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:14 PM
let me sum it up for u:

elite prospects, heck prospects in general, will usually be graded better for longer arms, not shorter arms.
having shorter arms doesnt make a player burst off the line quicker, doesn't make u a better pass rusher, doesnt make u a better player in ANY regard...am i really having to explain this to someone???


You are right, Michael Brockers is this years top defensive tackle prospect. He has 35 inch arms and a mammoth wingspan. But he isn't a great pass rusher inside. He was even subbed off the field on passing downs for LSU last year

The other top defensive tackle prospect, Dontari Poe, has 31 inch arms. Much better pass rushing prospect, although he's a poor run defender and lacks the instincts Brockers has.

Just used your own point to disprove your argument, LOL!

lulz.

u should prob stop...ur digging urself deeper and deeper

Neverend
04-05-2012, 02:21 PM
u really think that quote of me is wrong in any sense

You claimed that an interior lineman draft prospect with longer arms is graded higher than that with shorter arms. YOUR words, not mine. But it doesn't make them a better pass rusher or burst off the line quicker. YOUR words, not mine

Then I used the top two defensive tackle draft prospects (arguable, but for the most part they will be the first two drafted) Poe and Brockers and destroyed your argument.

You aren't wrong that they're graded higher like Brockers is graded high than Poe, but it doesnt make them a better pass rusher. Y'know, the same Brockers that has no burst or quickness, can't collapse the pocket, gets stonewalled as a pass rusher quite common, and gets subbed out on pass downs for LSU for the most part.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:24 PM
u really think that quote of me is wrong in any sense

You claimed that an interior lineman draft prospect with longer arms is graded higher than that with shorter arms. YOUR words, not mine. But it doesn't make them a better pass rusher or burst off the line quicker. YOUR words, not mine

Then I used the top two defensive tackle draft prospects (arguable, but for the most part they will be the first two drafted) Poe and Brockers and destroyed your argument.

You aren't wrong that they're graded higher like Brockers is graded high than Poe, but it doesnt make them a better pass rusher. Y'know, the same Brockers that has no burst or quickness, can't collapse the pocket, gets stonewalled as a pass rusher quite common, and gets subbed out on pass downs for LSU for the most part.

there ya go again. you really are special. its a good thing Poe has short arms, if he had longer arms, it'd really affect his draft stock...

are you serious????? just stop, its actually getting to the point where I am literally feeling bad for you and that takes all the fun out of it...ur assertions were wrong, its ok. happens to all of us now and then...

Neverend
04-05-2012, 02:31 PM
u really think that quote of me is wrong in any sense

You claimed that an interior lineman draft prospect with longer arms is graded higher than that with shorter arms. YOUR words, not mine. But it doesn't make them a better pass rusher or burst off the line quicker. YOUR words, not mine

Then I used the top two defensive tackle draft prospects (arguable, but for the most part they will be the first two drafted) Poe and Brockers and destroyed your argument.

You aren't wrong that they're graded higher like Brockers is graded high than Poe, but it doesnt make them a better pass rusher. Y'know, the same Brockers that has no burst or quickness, can't collapse the pocket, gets stonewalled as a pass rusher quite common, and gets subbed out on pass downs for LSU for the most part.

there ya go again. you really are special. its a good thing Poe has short arms, if he had longer arms, it'd really affect his draft stock...

are you serious????? just stop, its actually getting to the point where I am literally feeling bad for you and that takes all the fun out of it...ur assertions were wrong, its ok. happens to all of us now and then...

What? That makes no sense. In a way you're contradicting yourself. So you're now saying that arm length has nothing to do with the draft stock of an interior prospect when you said interior lineman are graded higher for having really long arms?

Anyway these are your words, not mine. I think an interior lineman is graded out more about their ability to be quick off the line, explosive, their instincts, their strength, film, production etc. I just think their measurables are a bonus or plus, but not much of a deciding factor. I was just dedstroying a stupid point you tried to make as I'm now watching you backtrack from it

Anyway, throughout this entire argument you've been unable to really come up with any points except for the one about draft prospects. I easily destroyed that, made you look really dumb, and now you have to backtrack it. You've tried to go around and trying to avoid my reasoning, points, and analogies because you're unable to prove me wrong and now you have to insult me and play the "ur embarassing urself" card. Classic showing of a man that lost an argument and now has to save face. I'd like to think you're the one embarassing yourself here and doing a lovely job at it, no less

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:35 PM
for the absolute last time, and i know people have to repeat things to u over and over and over again well bc ur special:

having short arms does not make u get off the line quicker, does not make u a better pass rusher, does not mean u will be successful IN ANY POSITION IN FOOTBALL. the fact YOU used JPP's long arms as a reason why he struggled playing in the interior is completely erroneous and the way in which u skate around YOUR OWN COMMENTS is commical. do i really have to quote the post where i show all of ur whack comments, AGAIN? ok i will...lmfao, u were the one who tried to turn this into a GM/draft debate bc ur points are completely wrong. the whole Poe/Brockers thing was ur introduction bc u somehow felt one of my comments was wrong, the one u went Lulz, even tho u'd have to be a moron to think that what i said in that post was wrong...oops, sorry, in ur case, u'd have to be "special"

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:36 PM
let me sum it up for u:

elite prospects, heck prospects in general, will usually be graded better for longer arms, not shorter arms.
having shorter arms doesnt make a player burst off the line quicker, doesn't make u a better pass rusher, doesnt make u a better player in ANY regard...am i really having to explain this to someone???


You are right, Michael Brockers is this years top defensive tackle prospect. He has 35 inch arms and a mammoth wingspan. But he isn't a great pass rusher inside. He was even subbed off the field on passing downs for LSU last year

The other top defensive tackle prospect, Dontari Poe, has 31 inch arms. Much better pass rushing prospect, although he's a poor run defender and lacks the instincts Brockers has.

Just used your own point to disprove your argument, LOL!

lulz.

lmfao

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:37 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.





lmfao


i'm leaving this thread now...thank u for the laughs, i needed em

Neverend
04-05-2012, 02:41 PM
Wow. You still can't do anything but repeat yourself. I already replied to everything you said. And LOL @ you backtracking from the draft/GM stuff. And LOL @ you making another threat of leaving, you must be that insecure of arguing with anyone


having short arms does not make u get off the line quicker, does not make u a better pass rusher

You constantly repeat this, WITHOUT EXPLAINING WHY. I adressed this point multiple times now and explained why having super long arms is a disadvantage pass rushing inside than someone with shorter arms:


Defensive tackles that have average to above average arm length engages quicker against G/C than a lineman with longer arms. Why?

Because, for one, they are built more lower to the ground whereas someone with JPP/Canty's arm length makes them sit into their stance much more higher

Secondly, by being lower to the ground they are able to come out their stance faster by gaining inside leverage with a lineman immediately. A defensive lineman with very narrow and long arms can't coil very fast, balance themselves in the process, and gain inside leverage because they aren't built lower to the ground in their stance in the first place. It really effects their quickness off the ball and ability to overwhelm right away with a lineman

Because of this, its harder for an interior lineman with really long arms to push the pocket immediately or split gaps and collapse the pocket. Which is the most common way to get pressure inside. Their arm length is still a major plus in terms of power moves because an offensive lineman can't get into their chest but clearly the most effective inside rushers in the nfl are the ones that get pressure immediately by pushing or collapsing the pocket.

You can't reply back to this. You'll just tell me I'm wrong without explaining why... and I'm the moron who is deeping myself deeper. Its pretty sad.

nevada11
04-05-2012, 02:43 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.





lmfao


i'm leaving this thread now...thank u for the laughs, i needed em

I disagree a little with neverend but I am going to side with him on this one. The reason why you look bad and losing this argument is because you do a terrible job at supporting your opinions with facts. Maybe you are still in high school and don't know how to debate with people yet

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 02:54 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.





lmfao


i'm leaving this thread now...thank u for the laughs, i needed em

I disagree a little with neverend but I am going to side with him on this one. The reason why you look bad and losing this argument is because you do a terrible job at supporting your opinions with facts. Maybe you are still in high school and don't know how to debate with people yet

do you really think I care if you agree with him? Thats great. I could be the only person in the world to think that having short arms isnt an advantage, in any position in football, and wouldnt change my opinion.

u do realize that is his position? the post i continued to quote, it didnt show his name, but those were his statements, not mine.

further, he somehow "lulz" at the comment, "GMs/Scouts will look for players with longer arms as a positive at any position and that having shorter arms doesnt make u faster off the line, give u a lower center of balance, make u abetter pass rusher" or that JPP having long arms is a disadvantage to him in any form

if anything, u just indicate I should consider u every bit as "special" as him.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 02:56 PM
I disagree a little with neverend but I am going to side with him on this one. The reason why you look bad and losing this argument is because you do a terrible job at supporting your opinions with facts. Maybe you are still in high school and don't know how to debate with people yet

Don't bother, his reading comprehension skills is very poor. He'd probably won't even understand your post when he replies to you

Neverend
04-05-2012, 02:57 PM
further, he somehow "lulz" at the comment, "GMs/Scouts will look for players with longer arms as a positive at any position and that having shorter arms doesnt make u faster off the line, give u a lower center of balance, make u abetter pass rusher" or that JPP having long arms is a disadvantage to him in any form

Low center of gravity, not balance. And I said guys like JPP and Canty having super long arms is a disadvantage inside as a pass rusher comapred to someone with shorter arms, not in "any form"

Putting words in people's mouths. Something you're very skilled at

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 03:01 PM
further, he somehow "lulz" at the comment, "GMs/Scouts will look for players with longer arms as a positive at any position and that having shorter arms doesnt make u faster off the line, give u a lower center of balance, make u abetter pass rusher" or that JPP having long arms is a disadvantage to him in any form

Low center of gravity, not balance. And I said guys like JPP and Canty having super long arms is a disadvantage inside as a pass rusher, not in "any form"

Putting words in people's mouths. Something you're very skilled at

nah, ur just special again. I meant it as that having longer arms wouldnt be a disadvantage to JPP in any form, which in this case, applies to u using it as a negative to him as an interior pass rusher.

understanding, well anything...NOT something u're very skilled at as it took u what, 15 posts to finally understand "having short arms doesnt give a DT an advantage in anything"

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 03:03 PM
oh, and just to give u a heads up, read ANY draft analysis of an interior DL. NOT ONCE HAVE I SEEN SOMEONE USE SHORT ARMS AS A POSITIVE.
in fact, in the negatives section, they list short arm span. but that has nothing to do with your topic tho right?
JPP isnt "good as an interior DL bc he has long arms"...i swear, some people should not try and come off as an avid football analyst.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 03:05 PM
http://www.kffl.com/a.php/129893/nfl-draft/2012-NFL-Draft-Scouting-Report--Dontari-Poe--DT--Memphis

weakness: SHORT ARMS

lmfao

Neverend
04-05-2012, 03:07 PM
This is about PASS RUSHING AS AN INTERIOR LINEMAN.

Tell me, give me a defensive tackle that excels at collapsing the pocket and arms are at least 34 inch arms

The best interior pass rushers in the NFL are the ones that are built lower to the ground and can collapse the pocket. Look at Alford, Austin, Benard, Robbins when he was in here. They were great interior pass rushers in college (austin) or early in their careers. All of their arm length isn't very long and are quite short/compact

Having super long arms like JPP and Canty pass rushing inside is a disadvantage than those listed above.

There is nothing ridiculous about that statement. Look at Geno Atkins, quite possibly the best interior pass rusher in the NFL last year. He was absolutely criticized for his short arm span.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 03:09 PM
This is about PASS RUSHING AS AN INTERIOR LINEMAN.

Tell me, give me a defensive tackle that excels at collapsing the pocket and arms are at least 34 inch arms

The best interior pass rushers in the NFL are the ones that are built lower to the ground and can collapse the pocket. Look at Alford, Austin, Benard, Robbins when he was in here. They were great interior pass rushers in college (austin) or early in their careers. All of their arm length isn't very long and are quite short/compact

Having super long arms like JPP and Canty pass rushing inside is a disadvantage than those listed above.

There is nothing ridiculous about that statement. Look at Geno Atkins, quite possibly the best interior pass rusher in the NFL last year. He was absolutely criticized for his short arm span.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_big_board_scouting_reports.html&position=dt

looks like your wrong again, shocking...arm length is absolutely a positive as a DT, the fact some one would say otherwise is flat out retarted, oops, i mean special

Neverend
04-05-2012, 03:10 PM
http://www.kffl.com/a.php/129893/nfl-draft/2012-NFL-Draft-Scouting-Report--Dontari-Poe--DT--Memphis

weakness: SHORT ARMS

lmfao

You know nothing about the game of football. Short arms are a weakness against the run, not against the pass. Having short arms allow blockers to get into your body easier.

Tell me how not having super long arms as an interior pass rusher, hurts.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 03:13 PM
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_big_board_scouting_reports.html&position=dt

looks like your wrong again, shocking...arm length is absolutely a positive as a DT, the fact some one would say otherwise is flat out retarted, oops, i mean special

Again, arm length is a positive as a DT only in run defense.

Against the pass, arm length isn't all that important. Its about your burst, quickness, suddenness. Arm length only helps with power moves. The most consistent way to get pressure in the NFL is to push the pocket immediately or collapse the pocket by splitting gaps, as I explained in my post here:


Because of this, its harder for an interior lineman with really long arms to push the pocket immediately or split gaps and collapse the pocket. Which is the most common way to get pressure inside. Their arm length is still a major plus in terms of power moves because an offensive lineman can't get into their chest but clearly the most effective inside rushers in the nfl are the ones that get pressure immediately by pushing or collapsing the pocket

Mhm, I'm so wrong

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 03:14 PM
i did a lil bit of research, the top 10 DT prospects coming out in this draft, Poe has the shortest arm length at just under 32 inches, technically 31 and like 3/4.

meanwhile, every other prospect has arm length at or greater than 33...so if "shorter arms" gave an interior DL an advantage, wouldn't we see more shorter armed DTs??

Brockers, who many ranks as the top DT prospect, has 35 inch arm length...hmmmmmmmmmmm looks like ur whole theory on players having long arms is a bad thing as a DT is completely moronic, as i suspected

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 03:16 PM
http://www.kffl.com/a.php/129893/nfl-draft/2012-NFL-Draft-Scouting-Report--Dontari-Poe--DT--Memphis

weakness: SHORT ARMS

lmfao

You know nothing about the game of football. Short arms are a weakness against the run, not against the pass. Having short arms allow blockers to get into your body easier.

Tell me how not having super long arms as an interior pass rusher, hurts.

lmfao...wow...ok. u do u. lmfao!!! now, letting OL get into the DL body is a good thing!!!WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Neverend
04-05-2012, 03:56 PM
i did a lil bit of research, the top 10 DT prospects coming out in this draft, Poe has the shortest arm length at just under 32 inches, technically 31 and like 3/4.

meanwhile, every other prospect has arm length at or greater than 33...so if "shorter arms" gave an interior DL an advantage, wouldn't we see more shorter armed DTs??

Brockers, who many ranks as the top DT prospect, has 35 inch arm length...hmmmmmmmmmmm looks like ur whole theory on players having long arms is a bad thing as a DT is completely moronic, as i suspected

33 inch arms are just about average, normally the standard. We're talking about arm length like canty/JPP, guys with really lean, narrow really long arms.

I never said players having long arms as a DT is a "bad thing" overall. I well acknowledged the advantages. I CLEARLY said having long arms helps you with power moves against the pass and against the run. Again, putting words in my mouth. I talked about short arms vs long arms as a pass rusher from the interior, nothing else. Before you say I'm backtracking, here was one of my posts:


A defensive lineman with short/above average arm length (32-33 inches) pass rushes better inside than one with long, narrow arms like JPP and Canty. I never said an interior lineman overall is better. Having longer arms gives you a superior advantage in the trenches (unless like Ngata who compensates it with great strength).

I also never claimed Brockers didnt deserve to be the top DT prospect. I AGREED with you that he was the top prospect because of his long arms/wingspan but I also used your own argument against you that he isn't the best pass rusher in this class compared to Poe (who has significantly less arm length) who is considered a better pass rusher than Brockers. I destroyed your point, dont turn this into whether or not brockers is a top prospect or not.

Kudos for you to take the time to research all the top defensive tackle's arm length in this draft but lets not talk about all the other draft prospects, because we don't even know how they'll pan out in the NFL. Lets take a look at all the top pass rushing interior lineman in the NFL.. tell me ONE whom's arm length is at least 34 inches. I already gave my point about Geno Atkins, who was one of the best in the NFL last year..

Neverend
04-05-2012, 03:57 PM
lmfao...wow...ok. u do u. lmfao!!! now, letting OL get into the DL body is a good thing!!!WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Sigh. Your reading comprehension skills must really, really suck. You must still be in high school as nevada11 suspected. I said having short arms is a weakness against the run because it allows blockers to get into your body easier than someone with longer arms. When did I say otherwise? Putting words into my mouth.. AGAIN.

I still stand my statement. If I'm looking for a 1-technique, I want a DT with long arms that can excel against the run like Brockers. If I'm looking for a pass rushing interior 3-technique, I'm looking for a pass rusher with shorter arms (32-33) that can coil out of their stance fast and engage with lineman quicker/collapse the pocket like Poe. That is why I firmly believe JPP should not be pass rushing inside, he isn't built for that

Why you can't comprehend this simple statement and keeping laughing it off and telling me how stupid I am is just so immature on your part. It makes you look really, really bad and speaks volumes when someone actually DISAGREES with me but says you're losing the argument.. LOL!

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 04:18 PM
so when u say "having shorter arms is better bc the OL can get into your body" i'm supposed to interpret that as meaning something else?

maybe its not my reading comprehension, but your flawed points.

i am not even trying to get into it. you obviously feel that JPP isnt effective on the interior bc "of his mammoth arm length" and you feel that having short arms equals "getting off the line faster, having a lower center of balance, and being a better pass rusher."

I took the time to research it, and not one source listed short arm length as a positive in any aspect, although i did find it in a ton of negatives, but thats irrelevant bc we dont know how those players in the draft will pan out.
so then i looked at some of the best DT's to ever play the game. And what did i find? you guessed it, they actually have long arms...i even tried to correlate it to height and arm span to see if ur theory holds any ground, and again, couldnt find ONE example where the write up said "his short arms gives him a great advantage" or anything similar to it.

you asked me to list why having long arms was better or something along those lines...thats completely illogical bc I never made a ridiculous premise. your premise was that JPP is not effective as an interior linemen bc "of his mammoth arm length", not bc he's young, or bc he's raw, or bc this is like his 3rd year of high level football...but bc his arm length.

the same reason OL are graded better for having longer arms opposed to short ones is why its a positive to have longer arms as a DL, it gives you more length to slap, chop, disrupt the OL arms which they use to engage and block.

like what way would having shorter arms be better than having longer arms?? pls explain, i'm open to groundbreaking stuff, and if u could prove that having shorter arms is better as an interior DL than it'd certainly be groundbreaking bc it would def go against the mold of the prototypical DLmen

edit-and dont u find it ironic how ur saying i laughed at u and said this or that about you, when from the start when u interacted with another poster, you continually went "you wont read this correctly...your going to make a baseless claim..."basically saying that person wasnt worth it to converse with and coming off as better than him...thats the only reason i conversed with u in that way...if u want, could quote u doing that too

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 04:24 PM
http://www.kffl.com/a.php/129893/nfl-draft/2012-NFL-Draft-Scouting-Report--Dontari-Poe--DT--Memphis

weakness: SHORT ARMS

lmfao

You know nothing about the game of football. Short arms are a weakness against the run, not against the pass. Having short arms allow blockers to get into your body easier.

Tell me how not having super long arms as an interior pass rusher, hurts.

lmfao...wow...ok. u do u. lmfao!!! now, letting OL get into the DL body is a good thing!!!WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

and now its "super long arms" and "how not having them would be a bad thing" when you still have not made a logical point as to having long arms is a bad thing...

and again, when is an OL getting into a DL body EVER a good thing????????

Neverend
04-05-2012, 04:43 PM
so when u say "having shorter arms is better bc the OL can get into your body" i'm supposed to interpret that as meaning something else?.

God damn! Thats because I NEVER said that. Your reading comprehension is terrible. I am literally appalled at how ******ed that comment was. Again, HERE is what I stated:


Short arms are a weakness against the run, not against the pass. Having short arms allow blockers to get into your body easier.

Can't you READ? I said having short arms is a weakness only against the run because blockers can get in your body easier. I reiterated that again in a later post. I even put it in bold for you

Reading comprehension isn't really your strength. And you have nerve to call other people "special" because of the way I quote posts.. dude


i am not even trying to get into it. you obviously feel that JPP isnt effective on the interior bc "of his mammoth arm length" and you feel that having short arms equals "getting off the line faster, having a lower center of balance, and being a better pass rusher."

Yes, I obviously feel that. Note that I said lower center of gravity. Stop saying balance, then again your reading comprehension really sucks.


I took the time to research it, and not one source listed short arm length as a positive in any aspect

I took the time to research, and the majority of all the best pass rushing interior 3-techniques don't have really long arms. Still waiting for you to name me one that has one at least 34 inches. Its not about "ok, this prospect has short arms must be explosive." its more about "he's explosive but he has short arms".


so then i looked at some of the best DT's to ever play the game. And what did i find? you guessed it, they actually have long arms..

Find me a pass rusher that has at least 34 inch arms and is a dominant, interior pass rushing 3 technique


.i even tried to correlate it to height and arm span to see if ur theory holds any ground, and again, couldnt find ONE example where the write up said "his short arms gives him a great advantage" or anything similar to it.

Thats not really how it works. Give me a list most explosive interior pass rushers in the NFL and I guarantee you 99% of them all have arm length shorther than 34 inches


your premise was that JPP is not effective as an interior linemen bc "of his mammoth arm length", not bc he's young, or bc he's raw, or bc this is like his 3rd year of high level football...but bc his arm length

But because of his arm length AND:


Defensive tackles that have average to above average arm length engages quicker against G/C than a lineman with longer arms. Why?

Because, for one, they are built more lower to the ground whereas someone with JPP/Canty's arm length makes them sit into their stance much more higher

Secondly, by being lower to the ground they are able to come out their stance faster by gaining inside leverage with a lineman immediately. A defensive lineman with very narrow and long arms can't coil very fast, balance themselves in the process, and gain inside leverage because they aren't built lower to the ground in their stance in the first place. It really effects their quickness off the ball and ability to overwhelm right away with a lineman

Because of this, its harder for an interior lineman with really long arms to push the pocket immediately or split gaps and collapse the pocket. Which is the most common way to get pressure inside. Their arm length is still a major plus in terms of power moves because an offensive lineman can't get into their chest but clearly the most effective inside rushers in the nfl are the ones that get pressure immediately by pushing or collapsing the pocket.


the same reason OL are graded better for having longer arms opposed to short ones is why its a positive to have longer arms as a DL, it gives you more length to slap, chop, disrupt the OL arms which they use to engage and block.

You're wrong. Thats edge rushing. Using rip techniques and all that stuff helps you keep the LT off your body and turn the corner. That's why having long arms is a huge advantage on the edge and makes JPP so great. But this is about pass rushing from the interior.. not on the outside

Tell me, how do you get pressure from the inside the most? (Please, for the love of God, dont bring up stunts and twists) By pushing the pocket immediately and collapsing the pocket. How do you push the pocket? By coming into contact with G/C immediately, in order to do this you need to coil out your stance very fast and gain inside leverage right away. How do you collapse the pocket? Splitting the double team by having the quickness off the ball to get skinny between G/C. These two methods is why Sapp is considered the best pass rushing DT of all time


like what way would having shorter arms be better than having longer arms?? pls explain, i'm open to groundbreaking stuff, and if u could prove that having shorter arms is better as an interior DL

I think I've touched on that a million times, but due to your lack of reading comprehension, I'll do it again:


Defensive tackles that have average to above average arm length engages quicker against G/C than a lineman with longer arms. Why?

Because, for one, they are built more lower to the ground whereas someone with JPP/Canty's arm length makes them sit into their stance much more higher

Secondly, by being lower to the ground they are able to come out their stance faster by gaining inside leverage with a lineman immediately. A defensive lineman with very narrow and long arms can't coil very fast, balance themselves in the process, and gain inside leverage because they aren't built lower to the ground in their stance in the first place. It really effects their quickness off the ball and ability to overwhelm right away with a lineman

Because of this, its harder for an interior lineman with really long arms to push the pocket immediately or split gaps and collapse the pocket. Which is the most common way to get pressure inside. Their arm length is still a major plus in terms of power moves because an offensive lineman can't get into their chest but clearly the most effective inside rushers in the nfl are the ones that get pressure immediately by pushing or collapsing the pocket.

Jiffy Jeff
04-05-2012, 05:15 PM
Nice post, buddy.


Anyhow......"I before E except after C".

TheEnigma
04-05-2012, 05:32 PM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/HathBrad/INTERNET%20DOWNLOADS/ANIMATED%20GIFS/ScarJo_popcorn.gif

Neverend
04-05-2012, 05:54 PM
Other things you have to consider as well. Linval joseph has 35 inch arms but when you put on the defensive line it looks like has the lowest center of gravity out of everyone. Thats why he was so highly touted out of the draft, it was rare to see a lineman of his size/strength move like an explosive 3-technique, and his low center of gravity and base was a reason why. He actually looks like he has the shortest arms on the dline when he's in his stance.. which is what exactly guys like marvin austin, fred robbins, rocky bernard, alford, etc. do so well because they have short and average arm length

Kind of like this year. I remember reading somewhere its rare to see a corner of claiborne's size move like a corner much smaller than him. These type of players are the exception and are exceptionally rare.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 08:35 PM
http://www.kffl.com/a.php/129893/nfl-draft/2012-NFL-Draft-Scouting-Report--Dontari-Poe--DT--Memphis

weakness: SHORT ARMS

lmfao

You know nothing about the game of football. Short arms are a weakness against the run, not against the pass. *****Having short arms allow blockers to get into your body easier.******

Tell me how not having super long arms as an interior pass rusher, hurts.

but when I say what u said word for word, my reading comprehension sucks???

34 inch arms for a DT is avg. to slightly above avg.
U used Poe, so find me ONE great DT with 31 inch arm length to prove your point.

And you can go around acting like ur some sort of genius, POINT BLANK, you said that having short arms gives a player better burst off the line, LMFAO, better center of whatever, LMFAO, and a better pass rush, LMFAO.

I believe JPP wasnt as dominant on the interior bc he's still raw, he's barely played 3 yrs of high level DE let alone DT. You can believe that his arm length is a deterrent, you would bc your "special"...DO I REALLY HAVE TO QUOTE ALL YOUR BS AGAIN??? wait, let me guess, my reading comprehension sucks, and when I QUOTE YOUR POSTS, the internet sucks at reading comprehension too and just doesn't understand...well i dont think anyone could understand HOW HAVING SHORT ARMS IS AN ADVANTAGE...do you realize that NO SCOUT, NO GM has EVER gone, "woah, look at those short arms. we MUST have him." which is why they record arm length, and no, interior OL are preferred to have long arms just like T. your a moron, i thought by leaving this would end, I mean I dunno how many times you can make aggregeous statements but u keep on trying.

Having short arms allow blockers to get into your body easier, THATS A GREAT ADVANTAGE TO HAVE...oh, wait, no no it isnt

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 08:36 PM
Having average arm length as an interior lineman is actually a plus. Like you said already with Alford, they tend to be more explosive/get off the line quicker like Rocky Benard early in his career. Its probably why JPP struggles pass rushing inside a little and same with Canty. So there's definitely nothing wrong with Austin's length.

He just isn't as great of an inside rusher as Tuck is. JPP's arms are so long it takes him longer than most to coil out of his stance just like Canty. Combine that with the fact that JPP is usually a little late off the snap regardless, he usually gets stonewalled inside even by one blocker.

Which brings us back to JPP. Can JPP coil and pop out from his stance and make contact vs G/C as quick as, say, a Marvin Austin? Probably not. And that isn't his fault, because he has such long mammoth 36 inch pterodactyl-like arms he can't do it as fast as someone with 32 inch arms.

Carrying you throughout this argument, I make a perfectly understandable analogy why JPP shouldn't be rushing inside.



.
Sorry, I have to do it...

the above example of being "special" is courtesy of Neverend.

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 08:38 PM
oh and out of the top 10 DT draft prospects, ONE has arm length 32 inches or less, Poe, and scouts concur his arm length IS A WEAKNESS...where as Brockers, who has 35 inch arms, his arm length IS LISTED AS A POSITIVE.


oh and JPP is ANYTHING but slow off the line, but i guess that is an anomaly bc of his long arms...LMFAO, there isnt ONE player that proves your point. whereas, you can research it yourself as I did, DT WITH LONGER ARMS ARE SOUGHT AFTER.
next your going to tell me WR's and RB's with slow 40's have an advantage over ones with fast 40's, thats the equivalent of your argument

its a damn good thing ur not allowed 200 yards within any coaching room of the Giants, well actually they could probably use a good laugh and a break from the grind...

TheEnigma
04-05-2012, 09:16 PM
It's like watching someone who speaks Mandarin attempting to communicate with a German. It'll never work. You guys are better off talking to your wall at this point.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 09:43 PM
Ah damn. This might go on forever. Looks like eventually we're going to have to just respectfully disagree with eachother, even though I see (and probably likewise on your part) you as completely ignorant and wrong.



but when I say what u said word for word, my reading comprehension sucks???

You said in another post I stated having short arms is a good thing because it allows blockers to get into your body, when I didn't say that. I said it was a weakness. Nevermind the fact that I said repeatedly even before that post that having long arms is a major plus against the run. Just a case of you trying to twist what I say to make it look like you're right or something, or that ur reading comprehension (again) sucks. I actually almost feel bad, I think you actually believe what you're saying and you're not purposely twisting it into a lie.


34 inch arms for a DT is avg. to slightly above avg.
U used Poe, so find me ONE great DT with 31 inch arm length to prove your point.

I'd say the average arm length for a defensive tackle is about 33 inches. Hm, a DT with 31 inch arms. Keep in mind Poe is generally on 32, but doing a quick search I believe Kyle Williams of the bills has 31 inch arms. Before he was hurt he was arguably the best pass rushing defensive tackle in the NFL.


And you can go around acting like ur some sort of genius, POINT BLANK, you said that having short arms gives a player better burst off the line, LMFAO, better center of whatever, LMFAO, and a better pass rush, LMFAO.

The arrogance here is astounding. It's like if anyone has an opinion different than yours, its laughable. Anyway, I never said your words: "having short arms gives a player better.."

No, what I said was in terms of pass rushing from the INTERIOR (pushing pocket, splitting gaps) having shorter arms as opposed to JPP/Canty-type arms gives you an advantage pass rushing. I listed the reasons why

I never said anything about a player being better just because he has short arms, or it gives them an advantage in run defense. These are your attempts at twisting my words to help prove your point or you're reading comprehension truly is bad. I'm going with the latter because I think you seriously believe what you say when you interpret my words so incorrectly.


Having short arms allow blockers to get into your body easier, THATS A GREAT ADVANTAGE TO HAVE...oh, wait, no no it isnt

Yeah, because thats exactly what I said. Quote me on this, look through this entire thread and tell me where I said having short arms gives you an advantage agianst the run. Oh, you can't, because I said the complete opposite multiple times. When I say "get into your body" that means RUN BLOCKING, because thats what lineman DO when they're RUN BLOCKING. I'm the moron? You're just extremely ignorant, arrogant, and love to insult others through a computer screen. You dont even understand the meaning of the words "blockers get into your body" when it comes to football.



I believe JPP wasnt as dominant on the interior bc he's still raw, he's barely played 3 yrs of high level DE let alone DT.

Might be the first decent thing you've said in our argument. Now we can build something here.

I would have to disagree with you here. I believe pass rushing from the interior is more about natural ability than technique. Really the only technique you can win with inside are rip/swim moves. But in an argument with whether or not arm length gives you advantages/disadvantages pass rushing inside, I think technique is irrelevant. I don't think pass rush moves and arm length have any correlation with each other inside. On the edge as a DE, yes, having longer arms really help with rip moves to keep blockers from your body but when you are pass rushing from inside lineman are moving backwards and wait for contact as opposed to on the edge.

So we're finally having a discussion here... please dont just insult and disregard the points being made.. like uve been doing the entire time


well i dont think anyone could understand HOW HAVING SHORT ARMS IS AN ADVANTAGE...do you realize that NO SCOUT, NO GM has EVER gone, "woah, look at those short arms. we MUST have him

No. They say "Look at his explosiveness, quickness off the ball, the ability to get skinny, and collapse the pocket consistently!" And when they look at defensive tackle that does these qualities, more often than not they have just marginal, average arm length. Long arms isnt something they possess most of the time

Neverend
04-05-2012, 09:50 PM
It's like watching someone who speaks Mandarin attempting to communicate with a German. It'll never work. You guys are better off talking to your wall at this point.

But me, I at least understand what he is trying to say.. and respectfully countered any point or argument he's made.

He just disregards everything I say, insult me and say theres no way my argument is right without any type of logic or basis besides "thats dumb". I explain why. He insults me and tell me I am wrong/stupid. I explain why I am not. Rinse and repeat. And on the rare occassions he does provide reasoning and facts to back up his points, I make a counter-point and he disregards everything I say and tell me I am wrong again without saying why. Rinse and repeat

The process will go on and on and on. I'm talking to the wall, he just can't have an argument on this topic because he believes my position is so silly its not worth acknowleding the rock solid, excellent points and analogies I've made. Yet, he still finds motivation to keep this argument going on. Sigh

giantsfan420
04-05-2012, 11:04 PM
Im happy your pleased with your alleged win.

Weird that fewell used him inside - guess you disagree with him too.

And show me some tape of ANY interior rusher consistently getting pressure on a 3 man rush.

I was simply trying to be the bigger person and agree with you in some areas, but ultimately i think jpp can be effective rushing from any position* - except as the nose or tackle in a 3 man rush.

What do you say about suh having longer arms?* Since you prefer using not to tested players like Austin - how bout the tackle taken ahead of him Fairley who happened to have the same arm length as JPP -weird. If arm length were the only measure of an inside rusher youd have missed out on many studs.


Of course you're rebuttal to this is going to be that "he had 16.5 sacks hes a great inside pass rusher!"

Sigh, Dave you just don't get it.
__________________________

so 3 people now just suck at reading comprehension and "don't get it"...

more like, short arm length is LOOKED AT AS A NEGATIVE REGARDLESS OF POSITION IN THE NFL. you used JPP arm's length against him, and 3 people went huh?????

like the other poster said, its prob better just to end it here...and btw, you full out said that an OL getting to a DT body and said it in context of it being a good thing, then said I suck at reading comprehension, even though you said those words verbatim...its cool you do you and continue to think C/G's and DT's are preferred to have short arms, when every piece of scouting and analysis says otherwise.

Neverend
04-05-2012, 11:16 PM
more like, short arm length is LOOKED AT AS A NEGATIVE REGARDLESS OF POSITION IN THE NFL. you used JPP arm's length against him, and 3 people went huh?????

like the other poster said, its prob better just to end it here...and btw, you full out said that an OL getting to a DT body and said it in context of it being a good thing, then said I suck at reading comprehension, even though you said those words verbatim...its cool you do you and continue to think C/G's and DT's are preferred to have short arms, when every piece of scouting and analysis says otherwise.

Even though in that same sentence I said having short arms is a weakness in the running game. Mhm, reading comprehension skills still lacking

You're way too close minded.

Look, you want your 1-technique in the NFL to be a better run stuffer

You want your 3-technique to a better pass rusher. So by here, we acknowledge 3 techniques are generally better pass rushers than 1-techniques. If you look at most of the best pass rushing inside tackles, they generally have marginal arm length. Long arms arent a quality they possess. Look at some of our recent 3 techs. Rocky Benard, Marvin Austin, Fred Robbins, Jay Alford. Whats common about all of our 3 techniques? Marginal arm length. All these guys were at least at a point in their careers or college, great pass rushers. Even some of the top pass rushing defensive tackles in our game -- kyle williams and geno atkins both have pretty short arms. I think Sapp only had 32 inch arms

Having shorter arms gives you better pass rush inside because it allows you to coil out faster, gain inside leverage faster, and push/collapse the pocket much better as all those 3 techniques I listed above do. That is why I believe using JPP on the inside is taking away from his strengths, maximizing his weaknesses. You think JPP's "lack of dominance" inside is only because he is "raw" and young, but I think technique is irrelevant to a discussion about pass rushing inside. I don't think its about technique like pass rush moves but more about a natural skill set like getting skinny/explosiveness.

He's a physical freak but that doesn't mean he's perfect. Look at Antonio Cromartie. He's a freak of an athlete but can't change directions very well in off-man because his wingspan and long limbs. He can't change directions as fast as a cornerback much smaller than him. Does that make him a bad corner? No, he's just an elite dominant corner in press man using his freakish long wingspan and lining him off minimizes his strengths.. like lining JPP inside does.

Fine, giantsfan420. You see my argument as stupid, you want to insult me for it, and you think its just so ridiculous its not worth replying to anything I say everytime I counter your points. Oh well. But I stand where I stand and tried to explain it many times with patience. If its not enough to gain your respect than I guess this argument isnt worth both of our times.

dave56dj
04-06-2012, 12:23 AM
While neverend certainly knows the game he or she called me insecure and sighed at the fact that he or she had to explain it to me like i was a charity case. I did my best to take in his or her points but he or she was completely rigid if i disputed or disagreed with anything he or she said.

Again the moment someone has to attack someone elses character it's just not worth chatting on a message board anymore.

Again knowledgeable fan for sure.

Neverend
04-06-2012, 12:34 AM
While neverend certainly knows the game he or she called me insecure and sighed at the fact that he or she had to explain it to me like i was a charity case. I did my best to take in his or her points but he or she was completely rigid if i disputed or disagreed with anything he or she said.

Again the moment someone has to attack someone elses character it's just not worth chatting on a message board anymore.

Again knowledgeable fan for sure.

It's a he, bro. Really, it seems like you started out the argument with disrespect. When you said "are you joking", feeling like my opinion was ridiculous and a joke. Felt slightly disrespected from the beginning which is why I said your disagreement with me was you being insecure with someone having a different opinion than you. I may have been "rigid" but at least I also took in your points and respectfully countered it.

Not sure how I attacked your "character" though. I don't do personal attacks on the internet. But I guess its just a misunderstanding between us, nothing more

dave56dj
04-06-2012, 12:49 AM
Well im sorry if you felt disrespected from
The get go- my apologies- in the end we can all agree we love big blue and leave it at that.