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giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 06:36 PM
OT Johnathan Martin

If he were to fall to us, I'd be real happy with that. He'd have the potential to be a LT, and could come in and start for us at RT day one, at least ib my opinion.

I also hope the draft goes this way, bc there will be a TON of top prospect WR;s and RB's available in round 2 and a really talented player could drop to us...like a L.Miller RB, one of the WR's; Radnle, Jeffery, Wright...

one thing that does jump out with his mock is that we'd have a choice between a bunch of 1rst round talent DE's...

can't wait til tmrw.

slipknottin
04-25-2012, 06:40 PM
Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.

Shockeyitus
04-25-2012, 06:49 PM
not sold on Martin... DeCastro was such a beast in college that it made Martin look good. Pass!

Neverend
04-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 06:56 PM
Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.

its over on nfl.com, its just the mock draft, no explanation. he'll do the explaining part tonight...

and i dunno if im just misinformed, but Martin has elite T qualities and is NFL ready. He has a great pass protection base, and is also a very good run blocker...

mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 06:56 PM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/profiles/jonathan-martin?id=2533041

Neverend
04-25-2012, 07:19 PM
Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.

its over on nfl.com, its just the mock draft, no explanation. he'll do the explaining part tonight...

and i dunno if im just misinformed, but Martin has elite T qualities and is NFL ready. He has a great pass protection base, and is also a very good run blocker...

mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...

Kind of struggles against power, then again so does kalil at times

but for the most part, i just dislike how reactive he is in pass protection. he reacts to the defensive lineman, he isn't the aggressor. because of it, he can struggle against savvy/technique/power rushers (double moves, rip/swats, up-and-under). many people in the social media calls him fineese and soft and you can see it with his technique. im not a fan of his

and when he actually does try to be the aggressor and punches the rusher before the rusher contacts him, he lunges or waist bends. i personally think he might bust in the NFL

TheEnigma
04-25-2012, 07:26 PM
mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...Did you seriously give more credit to Martin over DeCastro in regards to the O-line? That dude is the best player on the team, even more than Luck. You'll be spending hours on trying to find flaws on that kid and he only allowed 1 sack in his college career. I implore you to watch some Stanford tape and see that Martin isn't the anchor on that team.

Martin is a decent player but protecting the famous Andrew Luck helps his draft stock just a tad. I'd say he's worth a mid to late 2nd round pick, maybe even early 3rd.

Neverend
04-25-2012, 07:28 PM
Lets be honest too, martin isnt close to the prospect decastro is. hell that guy might be top 5 player in this draft thatll go top 14 because he simply plays guard

martin could easily fall out of the 1st round if detroit passes on him

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 07:30 PM
Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.

its over on nfl.com, its just the mock draft, no explanation. he'll do the explaining part tonight...

and i dunno if im just misinformed, but Martin has elite T qualities and is NFL ready. He has a great pass protection base, and is also a very good run blocker...

mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...

Kind of struggles against power, then again so does kalil at times

but for the most part, i just dislike how reactive he is in pass protection. he reacts to the defensive lineman, he isn't the aggressor. because of it, he can struggle against savvy/technique/power rushers (double moves, rip/swats, up-and-under). many people in the social media calls him fineese and soft and you can see it with his technique. im not a fan of his

and when he actually does try to be the aggressor and punches the rusher before the rusher contacts him, he lunges or waist bends. i personally think he might bust in the NFL

i think the opposite. i think he'll do fine against the power rush/technique guys. and mayock too calls his technique flawless and he'll struggle vs speed rushers but so does every T except the all time greats...

i cannot remember one collegiate pass rusher he couldnt handle...but i do agree with the lunging issue he does do that if he gets too high when trying to punch...
i look at it like this to some degree: I have Martin being more nfl ready, with better technique than any T in last years draft, even more than the T dallas got last season.

but i certainly cant say "im right your wrong" i see where ur coming from, i just differ.

and i think it'll be moot anyways bc i believe Martin will be the 3rd, and possibly 2nd T taken in the draft...

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 07:33 PM
mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...Did you seriously give more credit to Martin over DeCastro in regards to the O-line? That dude is the best player on the team, even more than Luck. You'll be spending hours on trying to find flaws on that kid and he only allowed 1 sack in his college career. I implore you to watch some Stanford tape and see that Martin isn't the anchor on that team.

Martin is a decent player but protecting the famous Andrew Luck helps his draft stock just a tad. I'd say he's worth a mid to late 2nd round pick, maybe even early 3rd.

martin absolutely anchored the line last season. and i dunno, it depends on how u look at it. decastro probably is the better talent, but at G, I dunno if that translates to him being more valuable than a T...different opinions i guess, I just read mayocks opinion on him and i agree with what he said, which was that Martin anchored the line, has an excellent base in pass protection, is NFL ready day 1, and the only elite T prospect outside of Kalil...

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 07:35 PM
Martin has prototypical skills for the position. He missed just two games in his career and is extremely tough. He carries his weight well and is one of the most technically sound prospects in the draft. He has a smooth, efficient pass set that allows him to get a solid base and work from a balanced state. He is powerful and aggressive against the run and has good footwork for his size. Martin was the anchor of a very polished offensive line and is simply an NFL-ready tackle...Martin is one of two tackle prospects in this year's class who could be called elite
-Mayock...

TheEnigma
04-25-2012, 07:41 PM
I'm just not seeing the value there for Martin at 32. Guys like Ware, Orakpo, and Cole will eat him alive with their savvy pass rushing moves. Part of the reason I don't think the Giants take TE's or OL high most of the time is because they have such a high amount of confidence in Pope and Flaherty, who are top 5 in the league at what they do.

It's probably better if we pass on OL in the first 2 rounds unless we get Silatolu at the right spot but wait for a Brandon Mosley, Mitchell Schwartz, or Nate Potter instead. We can probably get a David Diehl like career out of them with their skillsets and it would pay off.

Martin can beat speed rushers like Osi but I predict he will struggle with anyone who shows just a tad bit of strength in their game.

vinylord
04-25-2012, 08:04 PM
Rank
Player School
Class

1
Matt Kalil Southern California
Jr

2
Riley Reiff Iowa
Jr

3
Jonathan Martin Stanford
Jr

4
Mike X. Adams Ohio State
Sr

5
Zebrie Sanders Florida State
Sr

6
Nate Potter Boise State
Sr

7
Andrew Datko Florida State
Sr

8
Brandon Mosley Auburn
Sr

9
Matt McCants Alabama-Birmingham
Sr

10
Levy Ad**** Oklahoma State
Sr


Read more: http://www.kffl.com/a.php/129735/nfl-draft/2012-NFL-Draft-Prospect-Rankings--Offensive-tackles#ixzz1t60VtXEo

egyptian420
04-25-2012, 08:41 PM
Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.
The thing is I don't feel like Diehl, Locklear, or Brewer have proved their competent enough to earn a starting spot at RT for the year.

I guess it depends who's already been taken but I really hope we get Doug Martin and draft an OL in the 2nd or 3rd round.

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 08:47 PM
I'm just not seeing the value there for Martin at 32. Guys like Ware, Orakpo, and Cole will eat him alive with their savvy pass rushing moves. Part of the reason I don't think the Giants take TE's or OL high most of the time is because they have such a high amount of confidence in Pope and Flaherty, who are top 5 in the league at what they do.

It's probably better if we pass on OL in the first 2 rounds unless we get Silatolu at the right spot but wait for a Brandon Mosley, Mitchell Schwartz, or Nate Potter instead. We can probably get a David Diehl like career out of them with their skillsets and it would pay off.

Martin can beat speed rushers like Osi but I predict he will struggle with anyone who shows just a tad bit of strength in their game.

you got it backwards. his technique will help him win vs power moves and savvier guys. speed guys is what could give him trouble bc his base gets off center and he'll lunge occasionally...im tellin you, dont sleep on martin. way back almost right after the SB i was thinking about T bc of Diehl and KMacs play and I woulda been ecstatic if some one told me we could get him...he'll improve the run game and be more than fine pass blocking...

and thanks to the poster who listed the ranking T, a lot of analysts believe Martin is a close second to Kalil...we'll see

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 08:47 PM
I'm just not seeing the value there for Martin at 32. Guys like Ware, Orakpo, and Cole will eat him alive with their savvy pass rushing moves. Part of the reason I don't think the Giants take TE's or OL high most of the time is because they have such a high amount of confidence in Pope and Flaherty, who are top 5 in the league at what they do.

It's probably better if we pass on OL in the first 2 rounds unless we get Silatolu at the right spot but wait for a Brandon Mosley, Mitchell Schwartz, or Nate Potter instead. We can probably get a David Diehl like career out of them with their skillsets and it would pay off.

Martin can beat speed rushers like Osi but I predict he will struggle with anyone who shows just a tad bit of strength in their game.

you got it backwards. his technique will help him win vs power moves and savvier guys. speed guys is what could give him trouble bc his base gets off center and he'll lunge occasionally...im tellin you, dont sleep on martin. way back almost right after the SB i was thinking about T bc of Diehl and KMacs play and I woulda been ecstatic if some one told me we could get him...he'll improve the run game and be more than fine pass blocking...

and thanks to the poster who listed the ranking T, a lot of analysts believe Martin is a close second to Kalil...we'll see

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 08:48 PM
dont get me wrong tho, i'd rather a WR or Fleener, but if there isnt one of those worth it at 32, i'd be stoked with Martin.

He is also a Jr. and can add a lil more bulk...

i def. would rather an OL before a RB in rd 1 tho...

Spizi
04-25-2012, 08:51 PM
meh mayock picked the wrong Martin. Doug is going to be the next Ray Rice.

slipknottin
04-25-2012, 08:55 PM
The thing is I don't feel like Diehl, Locklear, or Brewer have proved their competent enough to earn a starting spot at RT for the year

Me either, but you add Jonathan Martin there, a guy who is not a great run blocker, and i think its unlikely he wins the starting job over the other 3.

So you end up with like 3 backup OTs. And giants only carry 2, usually.

TheEnigma
04-25-2012, 08:59 PM
dont get me wrong tho, i'd rather a WR or Fleener, but if there isnt one of those worth it at 32, i'd be stoked with Martin.

He is also a Jr. and can add a lil more bulk...

i def. would rather an OL before a RB in rd 1 tho...I might not like Martin but if we do choose him, I'll give him my support and hope he works out.

I don't think WR happens in round 1 unless we get an absolute steal. The draft is extremely deep and Reese will probably look at the position in rounds 2-4.

Fleener would be a cool pick but I think the Broncos or 49ers are realistic destinations for him and one has to wonder if the Colts would love to pair him with Luck.

I originally had Still as my 1st round choice but due to Cox's pass rushing ability and Poe's freakish physical skillset, I can see Brockers possibly dropping down to us like Prince did last year.

Spizi
04-25-2012, 09:02 PM
dont get me wrong tho, i'd rather a WR or Fleener, but if there isnt one of those worth it at 32, i'd be stoked with Martin.

He is also a Jr. and can add a lil more bulk...

i def. would rather an OL before a RB in rd 1 tho...I might not like Martin but if we do choose him, I'll give him my support and hope he works out.

I don't think WR happens in round 1 unless we get an absolute steal. The draft is extremely deep and Reese will probably look at the position in rounds 2-4.

Fleener would be a cool pick but I think the Broncos or 49ers are realistic destinations for him and one has to wonder if the Colts would love to pair him with Luck.

I originally had Still as my 1st round choice but due to Cox's pass rushing ability and Poe's freakish physical skillset, I can see Brockers possibly dropping down to us like Prince did last year.

that would be amazing! I honestly do see one of the top 3 DTs falling. Poe because he didn't really do **** in college, and Brockers because he lacks experience.

egyptian420
04-25-2012, 09:03 PM
The thing is I don't feel like Diehl, Locklear, or Brewer have proved their competent enough to earn a starting spot at RT for the year

Me either, but you add Jonathan Martin there, a guy who is not a great run blocker, and i think its unlikely he wins the starting job over the other 3.

So you end up with like 3 backup OTs. And giants only carry 2, usually.
Yea I'd much rather us take an offensive lineman in the 2nd or 3rd....Praying to God we land Doug Martin but doub it.....

gmen0820
04-25-2012, 09:12 PM
I like Martin as a RT. In this league, you really need two LTs.

slipknottin
04-25-2012, 09:22 PM
I like Martin as a RT. In this league, you really need two LTs.

It also means unless the giants really upgrade the LG spot, having any kind of running game is going to be next to impossible.

Though I do wonder, if they bring in more of these smaller more athletic linemen if they can switch to more of a zone scheme, and be effective that way.

juice33s
04-25-2012, 09:30 PM
I like Martin as a RT. In this league, you really need two LTs.

It also means unless the giants really upgrade the LG spot, having any kind of running game is going to be next to impossible.

Though I do wonder, if they bring in more of these smaller more athletic linemen if they can switch to more of a zone scheme, and be effective that way.
You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not.

With Boothe/ Petrus at LG the Giants were perfectly fine in the run game

slipknottin
04-25-2012, 09:33 PM
>You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not

I think getting Diehl out of LG was far more important than Beatty leaving. Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen. And then Baas and Snee were injured on top of it and McKenzie just broke down

gmen0820
04-25-2012, 09:34 PM
I like Martin as a RT. In this league, you really need two LTs.

It also means unless the giants really upgrade the LG spot, having any kind of running game is going to be next to impossible.

Though I do wonder, if they bring in more of these smaller more athletic linemen if they can switch to more of a zone scheme, and be effective that way.I think Boothe and Snee are a good tandem, certainly not high on my priority list.

I don't know about Petrus, but I think he can develop. I really don't know. I doubt OT is a priority early, I think it is a fan obsession. A lot of fans (occasionally myself included) want to go into the season with all questions answered.

Chances are we take a OT later in the draft, Brewer starts for us, and he prove us all wrong.

My ideal pick though would be Massie in the second.

gmen0820
04-25-2012, 09:35 PM
>You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not

I think getting Diehl out of LG was far more important than Beatty leaving. Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen. And then Baas and Snee were injured on top of it and McKenzie just broke downAgreed.

juice33s
04-25-2012, 09:38 PM
>You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not

I think getting Diehl out of LG was far more important than Beatty leaving. Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen. And then Baas and Snee were injured on top of it and McKenzie just broke down
Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 09:49 PM
>You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not

I think getting Diehl out of LG was far more important than Beatty leaving. Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen. And then Baas and Snee were injured on top of it and McKenzie just broke downAgreed.

me too.

and where are you guys getting that he can't run block from? maybe i just have martin pegged wrong but tbh, i feel i am correct on him bc of mayocks analysis...he's one of the few guys i do trust with player analysis.

Martin could absolutely be a LT, but if we take him he'll be our starting RT day one...

i think u guys are severely diminishing martins ability bc he lined up next to decastro...Martin was a huge reason Luck had the success he did, he kept Luck upright and i cant remember ONE blindside hit Luck took in college...

but i dunno im getting really excited about this draft. we could go in so many directions...WR/TE/OL/DT/DE...

i just pray that whoever we take rd 1, that a guy like randle, l.miller, d.wilson, a.jeffery falls to us.

my dream scenario is Fleener/Wright rd 1, then Randle/L.Miller rd 2, OL or DL rd. 3 and then whatever is the BPA....

edit-Juice, our run game didnt suddenly get awesome when DD went to LT, our run game still struggled pretty badly up until the final week of the reg. season...it wasn't even more than avg in the playoffs either...eli and the pass game carried the offense to the point teams were conceding the run to defend the pass...

and ur opinion would make more sense to me if we were a team that liked to run off teh edge...we were primarily an up the middle run team. and beatty actually showed alot of athleticsm in the run block, i can remember quite a few plays where he sealed off his defender and then took off upfield to get another block...

slipknottin
04-25-2012, 10:02 PM
Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable


Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT & LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


This season -
Left End - 4.03 ypc
Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
right tackle - 3.50 ypc
right end - 3.74 ypc

2010
LE - 3.44 ypc
LT - 4.31 ypc
mid/guard - 4.48
RT - 4.39
RE - 3.89

2009
LE - 4.11
LT - 4.04
mid - 4.04
RT - 4.56
RE - 4.19

So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
open field yards - 3rd in the league

2011
2nd level yards - 29th
open field yards - 29th

So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.

juice33s
04-25-2012, 10:23 PM
>You act like guard was such a problem for us (not just this thread either) when it was clearly Beatty who was slowing down the run game. He leaves with an injury and all of a sudden our running game turns around for the better for the rest of the season....coincidence, I think not

I think getting Diehl out of LG was far more important than Beatty leaving. Diehl was the worst LG I have ever seen. And then Baas and Snee were injured on top of it and McKenzie just broke downAgreed.

me too.

and where are you guys getting that he can't run block from? maybe i just have martin pegged wrong but tbh, i feel i am correct on him bc of mayocks analysis...he's one of the few guys i do trust with player analysis.

Martin could absolutely be a LT, but if we take him he'll be our starting RT day one...

i think u guys are severely diminishing martins ability bc he lined up next to decastro...Martin was a huge reason Luck had the success he did, he kept Luck upright and i cant remember ONE blindside hit Luck took in college...

but i dunno im getting really excited about this draft. we could go in so many directions...WR/TE/OL/DT/DE...

i just pray that whoever we take rd 1, that a guy like randle, l.miller, d.wilson, a.jeffery falls to us.

my dream scenario is Fleener/Wright rd 1, then Randle/L.Miller rd 2, OL or DL rd. 3 and then whatever is the BPA....

edit-Juice, our run game didnt suddenly get awesome when DD went to LT, our run game still struggled pretty badly up until the final week of the reg. season...it wasn't even more than avg in the playoffs either...eli and the pass game carried the offense to the point teams were conceding the run to defend the pass...

and ur opinion would make more sense to me if we were a team that liked to run off teh edge...we were primarily an up the middle run team. and beatty actually showed alot of athleticsm in the run block, i can remember quite a few plays where he sealed off his defender and then took off upfield to get another block...
DP
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juice33s
04-25-2012, 10:26 PM
Disgard last post let me try that again:

Let me break it down for you:
Beatty in line up
10 games- 263 att<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>832yds 3.16 avg

With out Beatty
10 games- 260 att 1061yds 4.1 avg


We're
talking about a team who has had a top ten rushing offense for close to
a decade (#6 in 2010), yet with beatty in the lineup they drop to dead
last only to show signs of their old selves once he exits the lineup and
you guys think that LG is to blame?

slipknottin
04-25-2012, 10:50 PM
We're
talking about a team who has had a top ten rushing offense for close to
a decade (#6 in 2010), yet with beatty in the lineup they drop to dead
last only to show signs of their old selves once he exits the lineup and
you guys think that LG is to blame?


Your stats do not support your argument. Sorry.


I broke it down by exactly where the giants struggled and where they did well. Overall running numbers are meaningless if we are trying to single out an individual member.

VegasGmen
04-25-2012, 10:53 PM
not sold on Martin... DeCastro was such a beast in college that it made Martin look good. Pass!</P>


Agree DeCastro made others around him look better. DeCastro will be an All-pro for years to come</P>

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 10:53 PM
did u see slips post? u just proved our point...outside the LT was the best ypc running the ball.

the interior WAS A DISASTER...also, DD was THE WORST RANKED OL AT BOTH T AND G...

beatty doesnt get near the respect he should. he held his own vs opponents best pass rusher, and did a good job run blocking. plus he was way more athletic than DD in getting to the second level, i remember quite a few plays where i couldnt believe beatty was as quick as he showed, he was getting the block on the de, sealing him off forcing him inside, and then he'd take off and get in front of the rb to make another block.

he made one amazing block too i forget vs who but he was able to make the initial block, swing out wide, then cut blocked a defender coming in free and completely opened up a huge alley.
and dont forget this was his first year starting.

i dislike how he has been hurt quite a bit tho...

JJC7301
04-25-2012, 11:23 PM
Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.
I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.

giantsfan420
04-25-2012, 11:36 PM
Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.
I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.

doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

for me, in order of what id like:(based on who will be available around our pick)
wright
fleener
randle
chandler jones
john martin
nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
doug martin

JJC7301
04-25-2012, 11:50 PM
Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.
I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.

doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

for me, in order of what id like:(based on who will be available around our pick)
wright
fleener
randle
chandler jones
john martin
nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
doug martin
In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.

BlueSanta
04-26-2012, 12:17 AM
Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.
I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.

doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

for me, in order of what id like:(based on who will be available around our pick)
wright
fleener
randle
chandler jones
john martin
nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
doug martin
In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.
I dont really see how you can say that without knowing who has been picked in the 31 spots ahead of us.

Redeyejedi
04-26-2012, 12:31 AM
Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.

its over on nfl.com, its just the mock draft, no explanation. he'll do the explaining part tonight...

and i dunno if im just misinformed, but Martin has elite T qualities and is NFL ready. He has a great pass protection base, and is also a very good run blocker...

mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...

Kind of struggles against power, then again so does kalil at times

but for the most part, i just dislike how reactive he is in pass protection. he reacts to the defensive lineman, he isn't the aggressor. because of it, he can struggle against savvy/technique/power rushers (double moves, rip/swats, up-and-under). many people in the social media calls him fineese and soft and you can see it with his technique. im not a fan of his

and when he actually does try to be the aggressor and punches the rusher before the rusher contacts him, he lunges or waist bends. i personally think he might bust in the NFLYeah he scares me as well. He is very susceptible inside. I would be upset if they picked him in the first round. Seems more like a late 2nd Round prospect. Honestly i would rather have Mike Adams and I dont like him very much either. I like Massie better then both those guys

JJC7301
04-26-2012, 12:35 AM
Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.
I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.

doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

for me, in order of what id like:(based on who will be available around our pick)
wright
fleener
randle
chandler jones
john martin
nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
doug martin
In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.
I dont really see how you can say that without knowing who has been picked in the 31 spots ahead of us.



Well, if some top 15 player falls to us then that's different, but I think that Doug Martin should be higher ranked than experts seem to have him ranked at. Almost all mocks have him as a 2nd round pick, but I think that he's 1st round talent.

Mayock has him ranked # 17 and I'm thinking that he's right.

Redeyejedi
04-26-2012, 12:36 AM
Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable


Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT & LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


This season -
Left End - 4.03 ypc
Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
right tackle - 3.50 ypc
right end - 3.74 ypc

2010
LE - 3.44 ypc
LT - 4.31 ypc
mid/guard - 4.48
RT - 4.39
RE - 3.89

2009
LE - 4.11
LT - 4.04
mid - 4.04
RT - 4.56
RE - 4.19

So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
open field yards - 3rd in the league

2011
2nd level yards - 29th
open field yards - 29th

So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this year

NCGiant23
04-26-2012, 09:36 AM
Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable


Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT &amp; LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


This season -
Left End - 4.03 ypc
Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
right tackle - 3.50 ypc
right end - 3.74 ypc

2010
LE - 3.44 ypc
LT - 4.31 ypc
mid/guard - 4.48
RT - 4.39
RE - 3.89

2009
LE - 4.11
LT - 4.04
mid - 4.04
RT - 4.56
RE - 4.19

So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
open field yards - 3rd in the league

2011
2nd level yards - 29th
open field yards - 29th

So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this yearI'm not ready to give up on Snee yet. Personally I think it was just a down year for him. This year he'll return to form.

Kruunch
04-26-2012, 09:40 AM
Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.

I'd also rather take a more versatile guy than Martin.

Glenn, Silatolu or even Osemele in the second round (all versatile OG/OT prospects with high grade builds/athletic qualities).

Jonathan Martin is Mike Adams plus about 20 IQ points.

Kruunch
04-26-2012, 09:42 AM
I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this year

I'm thinking KM failing on one side and having a new (underperforming) Center on the other was more of an issue for Snee then his abilities falling off.

Kruunch
04-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.

Beatty played LT for 10 games in 2011 while Diehl player 10 games at LT in 2011 (including post season).

If you look at the rushing numbers, they are FAR higher with Diehl at LT last year then with Beatty (like 30% higher).

Beatty is a better pass blocker than Diehl is (at least as far as least year went) but DD is a much better run blocker.

Also keep in mind that DD played with a broken hand all year in 2011.

As for OT being a need ... that depends on how comfortable the Giants are with Brewer. You have DD for one more year at least, so we have our starters in place theoretically (Beatty at LT, DD at RT worse comes to worse).

If they are high on Brewer, then he will most likely transition to RT at some point this year. If they're not high on him, they'll draft an OT early in the draft (depending availability of value of course).

juice33s
04-26-2012, 01:02 PM
We're
talking about a team who has had a top ten rushing offense for close to
a decade (#6 in 2010), yet with beatty in the lineup they drop to dead
last only to show signs of their old selves once he exits the lineup and
you guys think that LG is to blame?


Your stats do not support your argument. Sorry.


I broke it down by exactly where the giants struggled and where they did well. Overall running numbers are meaningless if we are trying to single out an individual member.
Your numbers don't really say much to support your argument either. For starters running around the tackle usually has a TE involved so you can't give sole credit to the tackle and secondly it only has average, not total yardage or attempts (not to mention it doesn't even break it down by Beatty/Diehl when clearly the giants ran better with Diehl at LT). Also, you originally said that LG was the problem when your own numbers show running in that area has one of the highest averages.

Its no secret that Beatty is not a mauler and I don't think its much of a coincidence that his absence coincided with the giants rejuvenated run game.

Where as guys you seem to have a problem with (Boothe, Petrus) had a noticeable and direct impact on the run games improvement once inserted in to the lineup

Redeyejedi
04-26-2012, 01:13 PM
Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.

I'd also rather take a more versatile guy than Martin.

Glenn, Silatolu or even Osemele in the second round (all versatile OG/OT prospects with high grade builds/athletic qualities).

Jonathan Martin is Mike Adams plus about 20 IQ points.I would love to land Glenn. The fact that he can plug in at LG or RT is a huge plus.

giantman8493
04-26-2012, 01:15 PM
I hope David DeCastro falls to us. I would be cool with us taking him to improve the LG spot.

slipknottin
04-26-2012, 01:25 PM
If you look at the rushing numbers, they are FAR higher with Diehl at LT last year then with Beatty (like 30% higher).
Yes, because we all know the LT position is the only position that impacts the run game.


Beatty is a better pass blocker than Diehl is (at least as far as least year went) but DD is a much better run blocker.
Prove Diehl is a much better run blocker. Go ahead. Ill wait. Team running success or failure is completely attributed to just the LT, right? Why even play the other 4 guys?

slipknottin
04-26-2012, 01:28 PM
Your numbers don't really say much to support your argument either.
Well they certainly dont support yours.


For starters running around the tackle usually has a TE involved so you can't give sole credit to the tackle and secondly it only has average, not total yardage or attempts
Why would attempts or total yards be more meaningful than yards per attempt?


Also, you originally said that LG was the problem when your own numbers show running in that area has one of the highest averages.

Behind the LT/LG they averaged about the same as they did running outside of Kareem McKenzie, who was awful.


Its no secret that Beatty is not a mauler and I don't think its much of a coincidence that his absence coincided with the giants rejuvenated run game.

You keep saying this like you have any evidence of that being true. Beatty holds his own in the running game. In fact he may have been the BEST run blocker on the OL last season.


Where as guys you seem to have a problem with (Boothe, Petrus) had a noticeable and direct impact on the run games improvement once inserted in to the lineup


Yes, replacing Diehl who was horrible at LG had an improvement on the run game. Glad we agree.