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View Full Version : What happened to trusting Reese?



buddy33
04-27-2012, 12:11 AM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent?

JacksGiant76
04-27-2012, 12:16 AM
But don't you get the feeling they only picked him because Martin was gone? Doesn't Cordy Glenn or Stephen Hill make a little more sense? Not saying this guys going to be bad, just seems like he's another Bradshaw, not a bad thing, but I don't feel like we got better with this pick.

I kind of thought we could address RB later in the draft.

Toadofsteel
04-27-2012, 12:16 AM
I still trust reese... he's not stupid.

buddy33
04-27-2012, 12:17 AM
But don't you get the feeling they only picked him because Martin was gone? Doesn't Cordy Glenn or Stephen Hill make a little more sense? Not saying this guys going to be bad, just seems like he's another Bradshaw, not a bad thing, but I don't feel like we got better with this pick.

I kind of thought we could address RB later in the draft.


When was the last time the Giants had an OL that size and from what a few people on here have said Hill has straight away speed and tha is it.

egyptian420
04-27-2012, 12:18 AM
I love it, he's got great speed and he can catch, which is something our team is doing a lot more of

JacksGiant76
04-27-2012, 12:20 AM
I would like the pick more if we didn't already have Bradshaw. I would have even been happy if we had drafted a DE haha.

JMFP2
04-27-2012, 12:20 AM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent?</P>


Agreed 100%.</P>


I've busted on Reese plenty, but I ****ing love this pick. Anyone watching the tape of him can see he's an electric player.</P>


Killdrive has a guy that can finally make the delayed draw dangerous.</P>


</P>


People need to get it through their heads......Bradshaw's wheels are ****ing shot.</P>

giantsfan420
04-27-2012, 12:22 AM
also, Wilson is an excellent locker room guy with a ton of determination.

there was a youtube video of him that went viral it was for the national USA football team, he gave a heart felt pregame speech where u could tell his passion for the game...

buddy33
04-27-2012, 12:23 AM
They lost Jacobs, Bradshaw has bad feet, Brown was just suspended for I think 4 games, and Scott didn't play much last year.

BlueBlooded1979
04-27-2012, 12:35 AM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent?

He is far from infallible. He picked Sintim, Brown, S.Woodson, Wright, Dillard, Tracy and how many late round QBs.

RBs in the first round are for desperate teams with crap QBs. That isn't the case here and this is a wasted pick.

He can't protect, run routes or hold on to the ball. Hill, Randle, Fleener, Still and Upshaw all had better value.

I though SF made the worst pick of the night until this one.

buddy33
04-27-2012, 12:43 AM
Why is this such a bad pick? The kid runs hard. He is a prototypical Giants RB.

buddy33
04-27-2012, 12:44 AM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent?

He is far from infallible. He picked Sintim, Brown, S.Woodson, Wright, Dillard, Tracy and how many late round QBs.

RBs in the first round are for desperate teams with crap QBs. That isn't the case here and this is a wasted pick.

He can't protect, run routes or hold on to the ball. Hill, Randle, Fleener, Still and Upshaw all had better value.

I though SF made the worst pick of the night until this one.

How many bad 1st round picks has he made? I remember he made one a couple of years ago that a lot of people didn't like.

slipknottin
04-27-2012, 12:47 AM
But don't you get the feeling they only picked him because Martin was gone? Doesn't Cordy Glenn or Stephen Hill make a little more sense?

Dont get that feeling at all.

Glenn and Hill both scare me as prospects.

Glenn is a massive guy, completely unlike any OL the giants have drafted, and he has rather horrible technique, and Im not sure if physically he can correct it. Never going to be a knee bender.

Hill is a guy who can run, and thats about it. Very average ball skills, cant run any routes other than the 9 route, average hands, and I question his intelligence too. Giants WRs have to be intelligent, otherwise they make constant mistakes like we saw from manningham.

plaxattack17
04-27-2012, 01:05 AM
i love this pick, he has crazy breakaway speed. And his kind of determination, TC will love that.

BlueSanta
04-27-2012, 02:10 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.

slipknottin
04-27-2012, 02:12 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.


Yea, the giants as an organization have not fallen in love with anyone in recent drafts. They make their boards and they go by it, they dont say, we love this one particular player lets do everything we can to grab him.

Sit back, take the best players as they come to you.

lawl
04-27-2012, 02:18 AM
This is pretty much the only decision by Reese that I've ever disliked.</P>


It is not a percentage play at all. </P>

Giant in Dallas
04-27-2012, 02:20 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.


A smarter man, yes. More intelligent, I don't think so.

giants-_-
04-27-2012, 07:07 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.


A smarter man, yes. More intelligent, I don't think so.

I am sorry when they were hiring GM's you must have been too intelligent for the Giants!!!

keyofgmen
04-27-2012, 07:54 AM
For Pete's sake folks....stop the "Reese" stuff. Like he sits in his locked office alone and plays mock drafts and then makes the picks in a bubble. Come on.
There is a full team and you better believe TC has...OH ,I don't know...A LITTLE INPUT!!
Come on....

GMENAGAIN
04-27-2012, 08:04 AM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent? He is far from infallible. He picked Sintim, Brown, S.Woodson, Wright, Dillard, Tracy and how many late round QBs. RBs in the first round are for desperate teams with crap QBs. That isn't the case here and this is a wasted pick. He can't protect, run routes or hold on to the ball. Hill, Randle, Fleener, Still and Upshaw all had better value. I though SF made the worst pick of the night until this one.</P>


I will hound you over this post until the end of time if this guy turns out to be a star . . . </P>

buddy33
04-27-2012, 08:43 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.


This. Could the kid not work out? Sure, but with 2 Super Bowl rings and with he guys he has drafted in the 1st round I'll say Reese knows what he is doing.

I mean he only drafted KP, Nicks, JPP, and Prince in the 1st round.

giantsforce
04-27-2012, 02:27 PM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent?

He is far from infallible. He picked Sintim, Brown, S.Woodson, Wright, Dillard, Tracy and how many late round QBs.

RBs in the first round are for desperate teams with crap QBs. That isn't the case here and this is a wasted pick.

He can't protect, run routes or hold on to the ball. Hill, Randle, Fleener, Still and Upshaw all had better value.

I though SF made the worst pick of the night until this one.But he also picked: Ross, SS, J Alford, DeOssie, Boss, Kenny Phillips TT, MM, Goff, Nicks, Beatty, JPP. All of his picks for rounds 1,2,3, for 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 are still in the NFL and they all have contributed to the Giant's success. Is he perfect? far from it, but then again show me a GM that is perfect and also has more success drafting than Reece. Come on people, let's wait and see what happens when the games begin in September before we declare this a wasted pick.

Coach Carter
04-30-2012, 08:38 AM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent?

He is far from infallible. He picked Sintim, Brown, S.Woodson, Wright, Dillard, Tracy and how many late round QBs.

RBs in the first round are for desperate teams with crap QBs. That isn't the case here and this is a wasted pick.

He can't protect, run routes or hold on to the ball. Hill, Randle, Fleener, Still and Upshaw all had better value.

I though SF made the worst pick of the night until this one.But he also picked: Ross, SS, J Alford, DeOssie, Boss, Kenny Phillips TT, MM, Goff, Nicks, Beatty, JPP.** All of his picks for rounds 1,2,3, for 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 are still in the NFL and they all have contributed to the Giant's success.* Is he perfect? far from it, but then again show me a GM that is perfect and also has more success drafting than Reece. Come on people, let's wait and see what happens when the games begin in September before we declare this a wasted pick.


Thanks you, and don't forget the free agents, Bruce Johnson (who beat out two draft picks to make the roster), Victor Cruz and Henry Hynoski.

Also, look at the Eagles, don't you think they wish they had Nicks instead of Maclin and JPP instead of Graham?

Most importantly, the personnel decisions have been outstanding, letting go of Luke Petitgout and moving Deihl to LT, signing Kawiki Mitchell and the veteran corners, moving Kiwi to LB, and signing Grant, Rolle, Boley and Canty.

Giants are locked and loaded.

critters
04-30-2012, 12:57 PM
I knew we were going to be desperate for a RB this year before last year's draft. Wish we had the foresight to have taken Mark Ingram last year. When he was there I was 100% sure that's who we would take... I'll never understand how you pass on a heisman winning RB when your starter couldn't hold on to the ball or stay healthy and your backup is on his last leg.

nycsportzfan
04-30-2012, 01:27 PM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.
Well, to be fair, its all part of the draft process.. Sometimes your gonna love the picks, and sometimes your not.. What are u supposed to do, say u like something when u don't? Its not like Reese dosen't miss on picks lke every other GM.. He did pick Jay Alford, Andre Brown, Bryan Kehl, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum(not enough production to warrent the pick yet), Andre Woodson, Phillip Dillard, Stoney Woodson, Clint Sintim, Rhett Bomar..etc I realize that i noted some mid to late rd picks, but i did so to show that there are misses mixed in throughout all rds.. I think there is enough misses to at least give your true feelings about the picks when there made.. Not to menton, whats the point of discussing picks, if all your gonna do is say , "i dislike the pick, but i trust reese"??? All u can do is make your case to why u do or don't like the pick and try and have "adult" like discussions.. TO me, theres more children like responses from the people who are all "reese rules" then the ones that are trying to be objective and discuss why they dont like the picks.. Its like your a enemy just becuase u don't agree with the pick.. I've put in enough time on these boards and int he draft threads, to at least be able to discuss why or why not i like a pick, without being treated like a dink, i would think.. </P>


I wonder where were all these people the last 4yrs, when i was all most annoyingly so having to debate as hard as ever, how great our drafts, and our UDF pickups were.. There were so many nay sayers, it was crazy!But, that was ok? The one yr i have some questions about some of our picks, is the one yr that the consensus loves it...lol Its strange, becasue the past several yrs, in my opinion, were hands down, easier drafts to sit back and say, "hey, we just killed it".. Thats just my opinoin of course, and i think the drafts of the past several yrs kinda support my arguement, seeing how those are the drafts, that got us saying " in reese we trust", right?
</P>


This is litteraly the first time i felt that we drafted just like other teams, and didn't just snatch up great values throughout.. Even when u do just snatch up great values, some won't hit, like a Ramses Barden, or Andre Brown proves, but it certainly in my opinon,gives u a better chance at hitting, i would think? I loved the fact we would take guys like Greg Jones in RD 6, while other teams passed em by because of this or that, and we'd just roll the dice on the fact the guy knows what hes doing, based on his production.. </P>


Either way, i dont think the draft was a big loss or anything, but i certainly have more questions about this draft, then any other draft we've had under reese...</P>

TheEnigma
04-30-2012, 03:51 PM
I think a lot of the love for the casual fan or those that don't follow the draft come from the fact we won the Superbowl. It makes them look for the positives in what Reese is doing since he just won them a Lombardi not a few months ago.

I guarantee you that if we didn't make the playoffs last season that you would see a lot more hate on this draft.

BlueSanta
04-30-2012, 06:35 PM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.
Well, to be fair, its all part of the draft process.. Sometimes your gonna love the picks, and sometimes your not.. What are u supposed to do, say u like something when u don't? Its not like Reese dosen't miss on picks lke every other GM.. He did pick Jay Alford, Andre Brown, Bryan Kehl, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum(not enough production to warrent the pick yet), Andre Woodson, Phillip Dillard, Stoney Woodson, Clint Sintim, Rhett Bomar..etc I realize that i noted some mid to late rd picks, but i did so to show that there are misses mixed in throughout all rds.. I think there is enough misses to at least give your true feelings about the picks when there made.. Not to menton, whats the point of discussing picks, if all your gonna do is say , "i dislike the pick, but i trust reese"??? All u can do is make your case to why u do or don't like the pick and try and have "adult" like discussions.. TO me, theres more children like responses from the people who are all "reese rules" then the ones that are trying to be objective and discuss why they dont like the picks.. Its like your a enemy just becuase u don't agree with the pick.. I've put in enough time on these boards and int he draft threads, to at least be able to discuss why or why not i like a pick, without being treated like a dink, i would think.. </p>


I wonder where were all these people the last 4yrs, when i was all most annoyingly so having to debate as hard as ever, how great our drafts, and our UDF pickups were.. There were so many nay sayers, it was crazy!But, that was ok? The one yr i have some questions about some of our picks, is the one yr that the consensus loves it...lol Its strange, becasue the past several yrs, in my opinion, were hands down, easier drafts to sit back and say, "hey, we just killed it".. Thats just my opinoin of course, and i think the drafts of the past several yrs kinda support my arguement, seeing how those are the drafts, that got us saying " in reese we trust", right?
</p>


This is litteraly the first time i felt that we drafted just like other teams, and didn't just snatch up great values throughout.. Even when u do just snatch up great values, some won't hit, like a Ramses Barden, or Andre Brown proves, but it certainly in my opinon,gives u a better chance at hitting, i would think? I loved the fact we would take guys like Greg Jones in RD 6, while other teams passed em by because of this or that, and we'd just roll the dice on the fact the guy knows what hes doing, based on his production.. </p>


Either way, i dont think the draft was a big loss or anything, but i certainly have more questions about this draft, then any other draft we've had under reese...</p>

Ok im gonna make 1 last attempt to cheer you up by addressing the 2 main picks you had a problem with, Wilson and Randle.

I know you were a Martin &gt; Wilson guy. I have np with that, even though I didnt agree. The problem I have is that even though I was a Wilson guy, I acknowledged that they were very close prospects in value. I could understand why some had Martin over Wilson, even if I didnt agree. However, I do not think you do at all with regards to Wilson, I think you fell in love with Martin. Now, Ill make my case:

Look at it this way. Would you have rather given up 18 spots in the 4th and 22 picks in the 2nd round to choose Martin over Wilson? I am a Wilson guy, but I sure wouldnt have been happy if we had given up that much for Wilson over Martin. I think that is crazy. They were rated way to closely to give up that much for 1 over the other. Look at those 22 spots in the 2nd round, there are some pretty impressive guys who got selected there between pick 36 and pick 58 including the likes of Fleener, Glenn, Alshon Jeffery, Jenkins, Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Martin and many more. Look a those guys in the 4th, its a prettyi good list too, including Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, Evan Rodriguez, Robert Turbin, Nigel Bradham, Joe Adams to name a few.

Look at it from a value standpoint using the draft pick value chart (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2410670). The Bucs moved up 5 spots from pick 36(540 point value) to pick 31(600 point value). That's a 60 point value jump they went up to get Martin.

You have been on record saying you liked the Bucs draft, I too like some of the players they got, but look how much they gave up to get Martin over Wilson:

-They swapped 2nd rounders , pick 36 to pick 58(-220 point value) and they swapped 4th rounders as well dropping from pick 101 to pick 126(-50 value.)

So from a pure value standpoint they gave up 270 points, roughly the equivalent of a mid 3rd round selection(equivalent of pick 76) in order to take Martin over Wilson. Look at pick 76 and tell me the guys on the board at that time arent worth more than whatever difference you percieve in these 2 backs. Here is a short list of player selected in that area: Brandon Brooks(pick 76), Mohamed Sanu(83), Bernard Pierce (84), Sean Spence(86), Demario Davis(77)

That is INSANELY poor value drafting on their part with regards to that pick.

Now lets talk about Ruben Randle. I know you werent fond of that pick either. Based on film and production I understood your point completely. You wanted Sanu(among others) over Randle. The problem is we have a fraction of the info on these 2 that Reese has. He interviewed both, he has doctors reports, strength training reports, intelligence tests etc . I have to believe there was a problem with Sanu that we couldnt see on film. I think there was likely a similar problem with regards to Cordy Glenn as well, a guy I liked very much for us.

I suspect, based on his answer to the media question posed to him leading up the draft about which NY team he would prefer to play for, that Sanu is not a smart kid. Not because he answered "The Jets", but because he answered period. Why alienate a prospective NFL team from drafting you? The moment I read that I knew 2 thing were probable 1) his interview with the Giants went very poorly. and/or 2) he is an idiot for Alienating a team that showed interest in him by bringing him in for an interview.

Conversely, we could not see how Ruben handled his interview. Maybe he showed aptitude beyond his age. Maybe he showed understanding of the offense leading the coaches to believe he can step in sooner. We have no idea what he showed. But whatever he did show, Reese liked it, and I trust Reese.

nevada11
04-30-2012, 06:47 PM
Yes sanu wanting to play for the jets makes him a moron. Not because he would likely start for the jets, but bcus he bombed his interview with the giants. Arguably one of the most smartest receivers in this draft on the field, is a ****** because he fell to the 3rd and was passed by gmen

Pft. Giants had randle as a 1st rnd talent and sanu lower. Stop over analyzing with completely moronic theories bluesanta

TheEnigma
04-30-2012, 07:06 PM
Didn't Reese say that Glenn was the BPA at #32 for them but since they felt a run would happen at the RB position, they went with Wilson instead? I ask because there's been a few things going around and I just want to clarify.

Neverend
04-30-2012, 07:17 PM
Didn't Reese say that Glenn was the BPA at #32 for them but since they felt a run would happen at the RB position, they went with Wilson instead? I ask because there's been a few things going around and I just want to clarify.

Nah, MG said these things

Whats interesting about the whole martin/wilson is that reese reiterated on wfan that they had wilson as number 2 back behind richardson AND had players ranked above doug martin if wilson weren't available

Also stated fleener didnt have a first round grade ( ='[ )

Neverend
04-30-2012, 07:18 PM
Yes sanu wanting to play for the jets makes him a moron. Not because he would likely start for the jets, but bcus he bombed his interview with the giants. Arguably one of the most smartest receivers in this draft on the field, is a ****** because he fell to the 3rd and was passed by gmen

Pft. Giants had randle as a 1st rnd talent and sanu lower. Stop over analyzing with completely moronic theories bluesanta

Does make a point though, sanu saying he'd prefer to play for the jets is moronic haha

But its even more moronic to suggest thats the reason the giants passed on sanu. maybe they just wanted a more vertical threat in randle although im not overly him on him

BlueSanta
04-30-2012, 07:23 PM
Yes sanu wanting to play for the jets makes him a moron. Not because he would likely start for the jets, but bcus he bombed his interview with the giants. Arguably one of the most smartest receivers in this draft on the field, is a ****** because he fell to the 3rd and was passed by gmen

Pft. Giants had randle as a 1st rnd talent and sanu lower. Stop over analyzing with completely moronic theories bluesanta

Does make a point though, sanu saying he'd prefer to play for the jets is moronic haha

But its even more moronic to suggest thats the reason the giants passed on sanu. maybe they just wanted a more vertical threat in randle although im not overly him on him

Did you read what I said? because it doesnt appear so.

I suggested that there was some red flag in interviews with regards to sanu, not that we didnt select him because of that comment(which would intern lower his grade.) the point being WE DONT KNOW why he was lower, but he was.

I used that comment as an example of stupidity, which is was not because he said he would rather play for the Jets, but because he answered the question at all. A smarter kid knows a trap question when it is asked.

nevada11
04-30-2012, 07:41 PM
Yes sanu wanting to play for the jets makes him a moron. Not because he would likely start for the jets, but bcus he bombed his interview with the giants. Arguably one of the most smartest receivers in this draft on the field, is a ****** because he fell to the 3rd and was passed by gmen

Pft. Giants had randle as a 1st rnd talent and sanu lower. Stop over analyzing with completely moronic theories bluesanta

Does make a point though, sanu saying he'd prefer to play for the jets is moronic haha

But its even more moronic to suggest thats the reason the giants passed on sanu. maybe they just wanted a more vertical threat in randle although im not overly him on him

Did you read what I said? because it doesnt appear so.

I suggested that there was some red flag in interviews with regards to sanu, not that we didnt select him because of that comment(which would intern lower his grade.) the point being WE DONT KNOW why he was lower, but he was.

I used that comment as an example of stupidity, which is was not because he said he would rather play for the Jets, but because he answered the question at all. A smarter kid knows a trap question when it is asked.


Wait so that means he was stupid for answering a question, it was enough to justify the giants passing on randle? And that is supposed to make nycsportzfan feel better?

Your reasoning is pretty stupid because its based on speculation because there are no reports teams had red flags on sanu. Using FACTS, COLD HARD FACTS the giants had randle as the best player available on their board

theories like bad intreviews, red flags, and saying he would play for the jets is nonsense and waste of your words. You are over analyzing. own up to it

nycsportzfan
04-30-2012, 07:45 PM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.
Well, to be fair, its all part of the draft process.. Sometimes your gonna love the picks, and sometimes your not.. What are u supposed to do, say u like something when u don't? Its not like Reese dosen't miss on picks lke every other GM.. He did pick Jay Alford, Andre Brown, Bryan Kehl, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum(not enough production to warrent the pick yet), Andre Woodson, Phillip Dillard, Stoney Woodson, Clint Sintim, Rhett Bomar..etc I realize that i noted some mid to late rd picks, but i did so to show that there are misses mixed in throughout all rds.. I think there is enough misses to at least give your true feelings about the picks when there made.. Not to menton, whats the point of discussing picks, if all your gonna do is say , "i dislike the pick, but i trust reese"??? All u can do is make your case to why u do or don't like the pick and try and have "adult" like discussions.. TO me, theres more children like responses from the people who are all "reese rules" then the ones that are trying to be objective and discuss why they dont like the picks.. Its like your a enemy just becuase u don't agree with the pick.. I've put in enough time on these boards and int he draft threads, to at least be able to discuss why or why not i like a pick, without being treated like a dink, i would think.. </P>


I wonder where were all these people the last 4yrs, when i was all most annoyingly so having to debate as hard as ever, how great our drafts, and our UDF pickups were.. There were so many nay sayers, it was crazy!But, that was ok? The one yr i have some questions about some of our picks, is the one yr that the consensus loves it...lol Its strange, becasue the past several yrs, in my opinion, were hands down, easier drafts to sit back and say, "hey, we just killed it".. Thats just my opinoin of course, and i think the drafts of the past several yrs kinda support my arguement, seeing how those are the drafts, that got us saying " in reese we trust", right?
</P>


This is litteraly the first time i felt that we drafted just like other teams, and didn't just snatch up great values throughout.. Even when u do just snatch up great values, some won't hit, like a Ramses Barden, or Andre Brown proves, but it certainly in my opinon,gives u a better chance at hitting, i would think? I loved the fact we would take guys like Greg Jones in RD 6, while other teams passed em by because of this or that, and we'd just roll the dice on the fact the guy knows what hes doing, based on his production.. </P>


Either way, i dont think the draft was a big loss or anything, but i certainly have more questions about this draft, then any other draft we've had under reese...</P>




Ok im gonna make 1 last attempt to cheer you up by addressing the 2 main picks you had a problem with, Wilson and Randle.

I know you were a Martin &gt; Wilson guy. I have np with that, even though I didnt agree. The problem I have is that even though I was a Wilson guy, I acknowledged that they were very close prospects in value. I could understand why some had Martin over Wilson, even if I didnt agree. However, I do not think you do at all with regards to Wilson, I think you fell in love with Martin. Now, Ill make my case:

Look at it this way. Would you have rather given up 18 spots in the 4th and 22 picks in the 2nd round to choose Martin over Wilson? I am a Wilson guy, but I sure wouldnt have been happy if we had given up that much for Wilson over Martin. I think that is crazy. They were rated way to closely to give up that much for 1 over the other. Look at those 22 spots in the 2nd round, there are some pretty impressive guys who got selected there between pick 36 and pick 58 including the likes of Fleener, Glenn, Alshon Jeffery, Jenkins, Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Martin and many more. Look a those guys in the 4th, its a prettyi good list too, including Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, Evan Rodriguez, Robert Turbin, Nigel Bradham, Joe Adams to name a few.

Look at it from a value standpoint using the draft pick value chart (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2410670). The Bucs moved up 5 spots from pick 36(540 point value) to pick 31(600 point value). That's a 60 point value jump they went up to get Martin.

You have been on record saying you liked the Bucs draft, I too like some of the players they got, but look how much they gave up to get Martin over Wilson:

-They swapped 2nd rounders , pick 36 to pick 58(-220 point value) and they swapped 4th rounders as well dropping from pick 101 to pick 126(-50 value.)

So from a pure value standpoint they gave up 270 points, roughly the equivalent of a mid 3rd round selection(equivalent of pick 76) in order to take Martin over Wilson. Look at pick 76 and tell me the guys on the board at that time arent worth more than whatever difference you percieve in these 2 backs. Here is a short list of player selected in that area: Brandon Brooks(pick 76), Mohamed Sanu(83), Bernard Pierce (84), Sean Spence(86), Demario Davis(77)

That is INSANELY poor value drafting on their part with regards to that pick.

Now lets talk about Ruben Randle. I know you werent fond of that pick either. Based on film and production I understood your point completely. You wanted Sanu(among others) over Randle. The problem is we have a fraction of the info on these 2 that Reese has. He interviewed both, he has doctors reports, strength training reports, intelligence tests etc . I have to believe there was a problem with Sanu that we couldnt see on film. I think there was likely a similar problem with regards to Cordy Glenn as well, a guy I liked very much for us.

I suspect, based on his answer to the media question posed to him leading up the draft about which NY team he would prefer to play for, that Sanu is not a smart kid. Not because he answered "The Jets", but because he answered period. Why alienate a prospective NFL team from drafting you? The moment I read that I knew 2 thing were probable 1) his interview with the Giants went very poorly. and/or 2) he is an idiot for Alienating a team that showed interest in him by bringing him in for an interview.

Conversely, we could not see how Ruben handled his interview. Maybe he showed aptitude beyond his age. Maybe he showed understanding of the offense leading the coaches to believe he can step in sooner. We have no idea what he showed. But whatever he did show, Reese liked it, and I trust Reese.







As far as the value thing, it depends on who's board u look at.. Also, u gotta look at what the team(bucs in this case), all ready have, before analyzing what players they missed out on with pick they traded to move up and get martin.. They all ready drafted Mason Foster last yr, and just got Lavonte David this yr, and they just got Doug Martin, so that kinda makes Bernard PIerce a back they would never draft, especially with Blounte all ready on boad, and then they signed Vincent Jackson, and have Mike Williams and Arrelious Benn at WR, hence they have no need for Mo Sanu.. They even signed Carl Nicks in the offseason, which kinda rules out Brandon Brooks.. I'm making this point, because knowing that, they made the makes the move even better in my opinon of course..</P>


But, back to saying, "i'm gonna try and cheer you up".. Did u see my last sentence, my friend?</P>


EITHER WAY, I DON"T THINK THE DRAFT WAS A BIG LOSS OR ANYTHING BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS DRAFT THEN ANY OTHER FROM REESE.. Thats all i'm saying.. I do like the bucs draft alot, and its based on what they did in the offseason as well as what they did in the draft. For me, i combine everythign, and make my opinion, based on that.. The draft is a extension of FA'cy, and UDF's, are a extension of both, in my opinion..</P>


I'll i'm getting at, is we mines well not even have draft threads and prospect threads, and talk about what players we think are good and bad, if were all just gonna say, "i don't care who we drafted, becasue in reese we trust"..lol Don't u feel we put in just alittle to much time on theese draft threads over the yrs, to be that way? don't u thnk we looked at just alittle to much film to be that way? I mean, if so, i will officaly be done on these draft threads, becasue its utterly a waste of time..</P>

nevada11
04-30-2012, 07:48 PM
But, back to saying,* "i'm gonna try and cheer you up"..* Did u see my last sentence, my friend?</P>


EITHER WAY, I DON"T THINK THE DRAFT WAS A BIG LOSS OR ANYTHING BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS DRAFT THEN ANY OTHER FROM REESE..*

"Cheering up" someone with ridiculous speculation and nonsensical theories and no facts is just ridiculous. dont get what hes trying to prove

But you really did want sanu over randle? sanu is nice but randle played in the sec. sanu made a living out of soft coverage in the big east

BlueSanta
04-30-2012, 07:55 PM
i will officaly be done on these draft threads, becasue its utterly a waste of time..

I was simply trying to show you another way to look at because quite frankly you have been very whiney since the draft. This quote supports that claim.

You fell in love with certain picks and Reese didnt agree with you, get over it.

nevada11
04-30-2012, 07:58 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at

Through speculation and unsupported theories.

You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps

I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story

BlueSanta
04-30-2012, 08:00 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at

Through speculation and unsupported theories.

You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps

I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story
Lol, why do you think he was rated higher? because of information WE didnt have. That was my point I made very clearly.

nevada11
04-30-2012, 08:03 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at

Through speculation and unsupported theories.

You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps

I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story
Lol, why do you think he was rated higher? because of information WE didnt have. That was my point I made very clearly.


Nope, you're still over analyzing buddy

We dont know any info? Reese STATED AND CLEARLY SAID they had Randle as their best available player on their board by far. It makes everything else irrelevant. Speculating things about bad interviews from sanu and using unsupported theories to tell someone why they should feel better about the giants passing on sanu for randle is stupid and makes no sense whatsoever

nycsportzfan
04-30-2012, 08:06 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at Through speculation and unsupported theories. You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story Wow, you are seriously like a 4yr old.. Your gonna alienate anyone wanting to have a debate or discussion with you, becasue of how childish u react to something u do not agree with...

nevada11
04-30-2012, 08:08 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at Through speculation and unsupported theories. You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story Wow, you are seriously like a 4yr old..* Your gonna alienate anyone wanting to have a debate or discussion with you, becasue of how childish u react to something u do not agree with...

Its not about agreeing or disagreeing. Hes using unsupported and speculated statements behind his argument. Its ridiculous

BlueSanta
04-30-2012, 08:08 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at

Through speculation and unsupported theories.

You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps

I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story
Lol, why do you think he was rated higher? because of information WE didnt have. That was my point I made very clearly.


Nope, you're still over analyzing buddy

We dont know any info? Reese STATED AND CLEARLY SAID they had Randle as their best available player on their board by far. It makes everything else irrelevant. Speculating things about bad interviews from sanu and using unsupported theories to tell someone why they should feel better about the giants passing on sanu for randle is stupid and makes no sense whatsoever

Right, I overanalyze by saying that a GM has more info than we do and uses that info to his advantage. That's just CRAZY speculation and over analysis!

allentown PA
04-30-2012, 08:24 PM
Relax. What more does he have to do to show you he can pick talent?

lmao..the guy who has started a million sky is falling threads is telling people to relax...lmao

BlueSanta
04-30-2012, 08:24 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at Through speculation and unsupported theories. You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story Wow, you are seriously like a 4yr old.. Your gonna alienate anyone wanting to have a debate or discussion with you, becasue of how childish u react to something u do not agree with...

I could care less about alienating anyone. Going back months now you and I have gone about agreeing and disagreeing on certain prospects. You know the guys I liked, and I know the guys you liked. Some we agree on, some we did not. This year, we actually agreed on more than in past years.

The Giants happened to pick a couple of the prospects I liked this year that you did not. Because of that, you have commented how you think Reese "broke his mold" this year. Based on what? The fact that he picked guys you didnt like?

But in truth, the whole "trust Reese" thing which I have seen you say MANY times is based on the fact that even if he picks guys we dont care 1 bit for, we have to know that Reese has 100x the information on each player that we do.

I went to FSU and Played football there, I occasionally get tidbits from old friends or current players that help me form my opinions about FSU players and some of the guys they play against. They have almost all been ACC guys i hear about, and I have usually mentioned the stuff here. But, more often than not, what the players/coaches say is true. Even with that info, I must acknowledge that Reese and other GMs know get WAY more info than I do.Therefor, I trust he will do the right thing and I dont get upset if he chooses someone I dont like, over someone I do.

nevada11
04-30-2012, 08:41 PM
[Your gonna alienate anyone wanting to have a debate or discussion with you, becasue of how childish u react to something u do not agree with...

This is you when people didnt like how you were talking up the eagles or didnt like the giants draft picks. your responses as followed that i found:


What are u talking about? Your a complete idiot, dude.. Get lost, u buffon!


Stop drinking, dude..


Shut up, u freaing dweeb! Redeye and I were talking about the eagles UDF' pickups, and they are in our divison, if u haven't noticed.. They also had a tremendous draft.. Therefore, were discussing it.. Mind your own bussiness if u dont' want to join

among many others. And for the life of me, i still dont understand why you think the giants really wanted doug martin over david wilson

BlueSanta
04-30-2012, 08:55 PM
And for the life of me, i still dont understand why you think the giants really wanted doug martin over david wilson

I understand it, even if I dont agree with it. What I dont understand is how anyone can argue that Tampa trading up 5 spots and trading away the equivalent value of a 3rd round selection is justified. Even if you think Martin is better, do you think he is a 3rd round pick better than Wilson? Thats what I cant get my head around.

Just use our 3rd rounder as an example:

Would you rather have Doug Martin?

Or

Would you rather have Dave Wilson and Jayron Hosely.

In terms of valuation that's what they did.

CGYgiant
04-30-2012, 08:58 PM
[I was simply trying to show you another way to look at

Through speculation and unsupported theories.

You sir, are a genius. Maybe going back to elementary school and learning about what facts and observations are helps

I'm sure the Giants loved sanu, they had randle ranked as the best player on their board. End of story
Lol, why do you think he was rated higher? because of information WE didnt have. That was my point I made very clearly.


While I agreed with your overall assessment, I must say that Sanu will have a lot tougher time separating from DB's in the NFL then would Randle. Sanu's a decent prospect but IMO his route running didn't look as crisp as Randle and he is slower and shorter as well. I think Sanu was more hyped on these boards cause hes a Rutgers product.

And is for Wilson, I'm with you. The only thing Martin does better then him is he's arguably a better pass catcher and he is more advanced with his pass blocking.

However, Wilson is a better RUNNER, in every which way. Hes faster, has more explosion and has better balance IMO.

nycsportzfan
05-01-2012, 02:33 AM
[Your gonna alienate anyone wanting to have a debate or discussion with you, becasue of how childish u react to something u do not agree with... This is you when people didnt like how you were talking up the eagles or didnt like the giants draft picks. your responses as followed that i found:
What are u talking about? Your a complete idiot, dude.. Get lost, u buffon!
Stop drinking, dude..
Shut up, u freaing dweeb! Redeye and I were talking about the eagles UDF' pickups, and they are in our divison, if u haven't noticed.. They also had a tremendous draft.. Therefore, were discussing it.. Mind your own bussiness if u dont' want to join among many others. And for the life of me, i still dont understand why you think the giants really wanted doug martin over david wilson Actually, most of those were to u, because of responses just like the one to Blue Santa, and the same thing to Elite.. Another words, they were justified.. Why don't u go get the rest of the childish posts that got me responding like that in the first place?

rainierjef
05-01-2012, 03:21 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.
Well, to be fair, its all part of the draft process.. Sometimes your gonna love the picks, and sometimes your not.. What are u supposed to do, say u like something when u don't? Its not like Reese dosen't miss on picks lke every other GM.. He did pick Jay Alford, Andre Brown, Bryan Kehl, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum(not enough production to warrent the pick yet), Andre Woodson, Phillip Dillard, Stoney Woodson, Clint Sintim, Rhett Bomar..etc I realize that i noted some mid to late rd picks, but i did so to show that there are misses mixed in throughout all rds.. I think there is enough misses to at least give your true feelings about the picks when there made.. Not to menton, whats the point of discussing picks, if all your gonna do is say , "i dislike the pick, but i trust reese"??? All u can do is make your case to why u do or don't like the pick and try and have "adult" like discussions.. TO me, theres more children like responses from the people who are all "reese rules" then the ones that are trying to be objective and discuss why they dont like the picks.. Its like your a enemy just becuase u don't agree with the pick.. I've put in enough time on these boards and int he draft threads, to at least be able to discuss why or why not i like a pick, without being treated like a dink, i would think.. </p>


I wonder where were all these people the last 4yrs, when i was all most annoyingly so having to debate as hard as ever, how great our drafts, and our UDF pickups were.. There were so many nay sayers, it was crazy!But, that was ok? The one yr i have some questions about some of our picks, is the one yr that the consensus loves it...lol Its strange, becasue the past several yrs, in my opinion, were hands down, easier drafts to sit back and say, "hey, we just killed it".. Thats just my opinoin of course, and i think the drafts of the past several yrs kinda support my arguement, seeing how those are the drafts, that got us saying " in reese we trust", right?
</p>


This is litteraly the first time i felt that we drafted just like other teams, and didn't just snatch up great values throughout.. Even when u do just snatch up great values, some won't hit, like a Ramses Barden, or Andre Brown proves, but it certainly in my opinon,gives u a better chance at hitting, i would think? I loved the fact we would take guys like Greg Jones in RD 6, while other teams passed em by because of this or that, and we'd just roll the dice on the fact the guy knows what hes doing, based on his production.. </p>


Either way, i dont think the draft was a big loss or anything, but i certainly have more questions about this draft, then any other draft we've had under reese...</p>




Ok im gonna make 1 last attempt to cheer you up by addressing the 2 main picks you had a problem with, Wilson and Randle.

I know you were a Martin &gt; Wilson guy. I have np with that, even though I didnt agree. The problem I have is that even though I was a Wilson guy, I acknowledged that they were very close prospects in value. I could understand why some had Martin over Wilson, even if I didnt agree. However, I do not think you do at all with regards to Wilson, I think you fell in love with Martin. Now, Ill make my case:

Look at it this way. Would you have rather given up 18 spots in the 4th and 22 picks in the 2nd round to choose Martin over Wilson? I am a Wilson guy, but I sure wouldnt have been happy if we had given up that much for Wilson over Martin. I think that is crazy. They were rated way to closely to give up that much for 1 over the other. Look at those 22 spots in the 2nd round, there are some pretty impressive guys who got selected there between pick 36 and pick 58 including the likes of Fleener, Glenn, Alshon Jeffery, Jenkins, Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Martin and many more. Look a those guys in the 4th, its a prettyi good list too, including Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, Evan Rodriguez, Robert Turbin, Nigel Bradham, Joe Adams to name a few.

Look at it from a value standpoint using the draft pick value chart (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2410670). The Bucs moved up 5 spots from pick 36(540 point value) to pick 31(600 point value). That's a 60 point value jump they went up to get Martin.

You have been on record saying you liked the Bucs draft, I too like some of the players they got, but look how much they gave up to get Martin over Wilson:

-They swapped 2nd rounders , pick 36 to pick 58(-220 point value) and they swapped 4th rounders as well dropping from pick 101 to pick 126(-50 value.)

So from a pure value standpoint they gave up 270 points, roughly the equivalent of a mid 3rd round selection(equivalent of pick 76) in order to take Martin over Wilson. Look at pick 76 and tell me the guys on the board at that time arent worth more than whatever difference you percieve in these 2 backs. Here is a short list of player selected in that area: Brandon Brooks(pick 76), Mohamed Sanu(83), Bernard Pierce (84), Sean Spence(86), Demario Davis(77)

That is INSANELY poor value drafting on their part with regards to that pick.

Now lets talk about Ruben Randle. I know you werent fond of that pick either. Based on film and production I understood your point completely. You wanted Sanu(among others) over Randle. The problem is we have a fraction of the info on these 2 that Reese has. He interviewed both, he has doctors reports, strength training reports, intelligence tests etc . I have to believe there was a problem with Sanu that we couldnt see on film. I think there was likely a similar problem with regards to Cordy Glenn as well, a guy I liked very much for us.

I suspect, based on his answer to the media question posed to him leading up the draft about which NY team he would prefer to play for, that Sanu is not a smart kid. Not because he answered "The Jets", but because he answered period. Why alienate a prospective NFL team from drafting you? The moment I read that I knew 2 thing were probable 1) his interview with the Giants went very poorly. and/or 2) he is an idiot for Alienating a team that showed interest in him by bringing him in for an interview.

Conversely, we could not see how Ruben handled his interview. Maybe he showed aptitude beyond his age. Maybe he showed understanding of the offense leading the coaches to believe he can step in sooner. We have no idea what he showed. But whatever he did show, Reese liked it, and I trust Reese. Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch GM, but seeing the time these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives, but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say
</p>

this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.
They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.


As far as the value thing, it depends on who's board u look at.. Also, u gotta look at what the team(bucs in this case), all ready have, before analyzing what players they missed out on with pick they traded to move up and get martin.. They all ready drafted Mason Foster last yr, and just got Lavonte David this yr, and they just got Doug Martin, so that kinda makes Bernard PIerce a back they would never draft, especially with Blounte all ready on boad, and then they signed Vincent Jackson, and have Mike Williams and Arrelious Benn at WR, hence they have no need for Mo Sanu.. They even signed Carl Nicks in the offseason, which kinda rules out Brandon Brooks.. I'm making this point, because knowing that, they made the makes the move even better in my opinon of course..</p>


But, back to saying, "i'm gonna try and cheer you up".. Did u see my last sentence, my friend?</p>


EITHER WAY, I DON"T THINK THE DRAFT WAS A BIG LOSS OR ANYTHING BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS DRAFT THEN ANY OTHER FROM REESE.. Thats all i'm saying.. I do like the bucs draft alot, and its based on what they did in the offseason as well as what they did in the draft. For me, i combine everythign, and make my opinion, based on that.. The draft is a extension of FA'cy, and UDF's, are a extension of both, in my opinion..</p>


I'll i'm getting at, is we mines well not even have draft threads and prospect threads, and talk about what players we think are good and bad, if were all just gonna say, "i don't care who we drafted, becasue in reese we trust"..lol Don't u feel we put in just alittle to much time on theese draft threads over the yrs, to be that way? don't u thnk we looked at just alittle to much film to be that way? I mean, if so, i will officaly be done on these draft threads, becasue its utterly a waste of time..</p>



i agree and cosign this 100%



the whole reason why i started film studying the players more this year
to be prepared for the draft is because of last year. we drafted JPP i
was thoroughly pissed the **** off but i was pissed without a clue of
who JPP was, the type of player he was his stats, his motor or love for
the game. all i saw was DE and said omfg another DE.



When you put so much time into researching players some guys stand out
to you and you feel that they fit this team best, sort of like an
investment into the player, almost like your lobbying to others on these
very boards why he fits the system. i use to be one of those poster
that would say to someone like Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch
GM, but seeing the time
these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives,
but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say





this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.</p>



we don't fall in love we simply see the benefits of the pairing of
said player and team. this is the first year where i can name players
the teams they played for, ranks and where they were graded all the way
into the 7th round. i rather not listen to analyst i rater form my own
conclusions, i've played this sport maybe not at the collegiate level
but semi-pro ( brooklyn seminole ) high-school ( midwood hornets) pop
warner ( prospect heights blue hawks) i have good knowledge of the game
to look at tape whatever tape i can get and assess. might not be the
same tape jerry is looking at but nonetheless its something. and until
you put the time into it yourself you have no ground to call anyone
anything, cause as fan's when gildbride calls a ****ing shotgun draw you
say to yourself i would of done this, or when we zone instead of blitz
you think we can do this better guess what your Arm chair coaching, when
you ***** about Osi's *****ing and what you would do with his contract
your Arm chair General managing.</p>





</p>



just an un-narrow perspective
</p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson&gt;martin or martin&gt;wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

the fact that denver was ahead of us the general consensus was that they were going to take either a DT/TE certainly not a RB; this is as far as consensus goes, pure speculation.
the buc's moved up i would like to think that the broncos knew who the buc's wanted to trade up for so that is doesn't impede who they wanted to get so that rules out RB as the broncos choices.
i can be wrong on that.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.

Jerry went on to say that they thought there was going to be a run on RB's in the second, that kind of hints a little that i might be a reach cause he predicted something that never happened only one RB got taken in the second.

which leads me to think had Martin been there he was probably going to be the pick. no fumble issues / good speed / can pick up blitzers / power back. he would of been week 1 ready, wilson has to work on keeping it high and tight and learning to pick up blocks in passing situations.

i also feel that RB probably was high on our boards of the pick @ 32 reese said the talent took a steep drop off after wilson. the buc's only traded up cause they probably thought the giant were going in the direction of RB and who was the next best after Richardson by consensus? Martin.

this altered what we possibly could of did at 32. if richardson was the only RB taken would reese of thought that there was going to be a run on RB's in the second? does he go another route say Still or Fleener? and hope that RB's just keep getting looked over until 63? if the buc's never traded up and it went as planned only change is giants don't pick wilson, denver picks whoever, then bucs in the second take martin and 9er's take either wilson or james and that leaves us with either wilson or james....

but we will never know so its a mute argument fellas

nycsportzfan
05-01-2012, 08:44 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.
Well, to be fair, its all part of the draft process.. Sometimes your gonna love the picks, and sometimes your not.. What are u supposed to do, say u like something when u don't? Its not like Reese dosen't miss on picks lke every other GM.. He did pick Jay Alford, Andre Brown, Bryan Kehl, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum(not enough production to warrent the pick yet), Andre Woodson, Phillip Dillard, Stoney Woodson, Clint Sintim, Rhett Bomar..etc I realize that i noted some mid to late rd picks, but i did so to show that there are misses mixed in throughout all rds.. I think there is enough misses to at least give your true feelings about the picks when there made.. Not to menton, whats the point of discussing picks, if all your gonna do is say , "i dislike the pick, but i trust reese"??? All u can do is make your case to why u do or don't like the pick and try and have "adult" like discussions.. TO me, theres more children like responses from the people who are all "reese rules" then the ones that are trying to be objective and discuss why they dont like the picks.. Its like your a enemy just becuase u don't agree with the pick.. I've put in enough time on these boards and int he draft threads, to at least be able to discuss why or why not i like a pick, without being treated like a dink, i would think.. </P>


I wonder where were all these people the last 4yrs, when i was all most annoyingly so having to debate as hard as ever, how great our drafts, and our UDF pickups were.. There were so many nay sayers, it was crazy!But, that was ok? The one yr i have some questions about some of our picks, is the one yr that the consensus loves it...lol Its strange, becasue the past several yrs, in my opinion, were hands down, easier drafts to sit back and say, "hey, we just killed it".. Thats just my opinoin of course, and i think the drafts of the past several yrs kinda support my arguement, seeing how those are the drafts, that got us saying " in reese we trust", right?
</P>


This is litteraly the first time i felt that we drafted just like other teams, and didn't just snatch up great values throughout.. Even when u do just snatch up great values, some won't hit, like a Ramses Barden, or Andre Brown proves, but it certainly in my opinon,gives u a better chance at hitting, i would think? I loved the fact we would take guys like Greg Jones in RD 6, while other teams passed em by because of this or that, and we'd just roll the dice on the fact the guy knows what hes doing, based on his production.. </P>


Either way, i dont think the draft was a big loss or anything, but i certainly have more questions about this draft, then any other draft we've had under reese...</P>




Ok im gonna make 1 last attempt to cheer you up by addressing the 2 main picks you had a problem with, Wilson and Randle.

I know you were a Martin &gt; Wilson guy. I have np with that, even though I didnt agree. The problem I have is that even though I was a Wilson guy, I acknowledged that they were very close prospects in value. I could understand why some had Martin over Wilson, even if I didnt agree. However, I do not think you do at all with regards to Wilson, I think you fell in love with Martin. Now, Ill make my case:

Look at it this way. Would you have rather given up 18 spots in the 4th and 22 picks in the 2nd round to choose Martin over Wilson? I am a Wilson guy, but I sure wouldnt have been happy if we had given up that much for Wilson over Martin. I think that is crazy. They were rated way to closely to give up that much for 1 over the other. Look at those 22 spots in the 2nd round, there are some pretty impressive guys who got selected there between pick 36 and pick 58 including the likes of Fleener, Glenn, Alshon Jeffery, Jenkins, Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Martin and many more. Look a those guys in the 4th, its a prettyi good list too, including Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, Evan Rodriguez, Robert Turbin, Nigel Bradham, Joe Adams to name a few.

Look at it from a value standpoint using the draft pick value chart (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2410670). The Bucs moved up 5 spots from pick 36(540 point value) to pick 31(600 point value). That's a 60 point value jump they went up to get Martin.

You have been on record saying you liked the Bucs draft, I too like some of the players they got, but look how much they gave up to get Martin over Wilson:

-They swapped 2nd rounders , pick 36 to pick 58(-220 point value) and they swapped 4th rounders as well dropping from pick 101 to pick 126(-50 value.)

So from a pure value standpoint they gave up 270 points, roughly the equivalent of a mid 3rd round selection(equivalent of pick 76) in order to take Martin over Wilson. Look at pick 76 and tell me the guys on the board at that time arent worth more than whatever difference you percieve in these 2 backs. Here is a short list of player selected in that area: Brandon Brooks(pick 76), Mohamed Sanu(83), Bernard Pierce (84), Sean Spence(86), Demario Davis(77)

That is INSANELY poor value drafting on their part with regards to that pick.

Now lets talk about Ruben Randle. I know you werent fond of that pick either. Based on film and production I understood your point completely. You wanted Sanu(among others) over Randle. The problem is we have a fraction of the info on these 2 that Reese has. He interviewed both, he has doctors reports, strength training reports, intelligence tests etc . I have to believe there was a problem with Sanu that we couldnt see on film. I think there was likely a similar problem with regards to Cordy Glenn as well, a guy I liked very much for us.

I suspect, based on his answer to the media question posed to him leading up the draft about which NY team he would prefer to play for, that Sanu is not a smart kid. Not because he answered "The Jets", but because he answered period. Why alienate a prospective NFL team from drafting you? The moment I read that I knew 2 thing were probable 1) his interview with the Giants went very poorly. and/or 2) he is an idiot for Alienating a team that showed interest in him by bringing him in for an interview.

Conversely, we could not see how Ruben handled his interview. Maybe he showed aptitude beyond his age. Maybe he showed understanding of the offense leading the coaches to believe he can step in sooner. We have no idea what he showed. But whatever he did show, Reese liked it, and I trust Reese. Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch GM, but seeing the time these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives, but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say
</P>


this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.
They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.


As far as the value thing, it depends on who's board u look at.. Also, u gotta look at what the team(bucs in this case), all ready have, before analyzing what players they missed out on with pick they traded to move up and get martin.. They all ready drafted Mason Foster last yr, and just got Lavonte David this yr, and they just got Doug Martin, so that kinda makes Bernard PIerce a back they would never draft, especially with Blounte all ready on boad, and then they signed Vincent Jackson, and have Mike Williams and Arrelious Benn at WR, hence they have no need for Mo Sanu.. They even signed Carl Nicks in the offseason, which kinda rules out Brandon Brooks.. I'm making this point, because knowing that, they made the makes the move even better in my opinon of course..</P>


But, back to saying, "i'm gonna try and cheer you up".. Did u see my last sentence, my friend?</P>


EITHER WAY, I DON"T THINK THE DRAFT WAS A BIG LOSS OR ANYTHING BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS DRAFT THEN ANY OTHER FROM REESE.. Thats all i'm saying.. I do like the bucs draft alot, and its based on what they did in the offseason as well as what they did in the draft. For me, i combine everythign, and make my opinion, based on that.. The draft is a extension of FA'cy, and UDF's, are a extension of both, in my opinion..</P>


I'll i'm getting at, is we mines well not even have draft threads and prospect threads, and talk about what players we think are good and bad, if were all just gonna say, "i don't care who we drafted, becasue in reese we trust"..lol Don't u feel we put in just alittle to much time on theese draft threads over the yrs, to be that way? don't u thnk we looked at just alittle to much film to be that way? I mean, if so, i will officaly be done on these draft threads, becasue its utterly a waste of time..</P>


i agree and cosign this 100%

the whole reason why i started film studying the players more this year to be prepared for the draft is because of last year. we drafted JPP i was thoroughly pissed the **** off but i was pissed without a clue of who JPP was, the type of player he was his stats, his motor or love for the game. all i saw was DE and said omfg another DE.

When you put so much time into researching players some guys stand out to you and you feel that they fit this team best, sort of like an investment into the player, almost like your lobbying to others on these very boards why he fits the system. i use to be one of those poster that would say to someone like Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch GM, but seeing the time these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives, but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say



this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.
They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.</P>


we don't fall in love we simply see the benefits of the pairing of said player and team. this is the first year where i can name players the teams they played for, ranks and where they were graded all the way into the 7th round. i rather not listen to analyst i rater form my own conclusions, i've played this sport maybe not at the collegiate level but semi-pro ( brooklyn seminole ) high-school ( midwood hornets) pop warner ( prospect heights blue hawks) i have good knowledge of the game to look at tape whatever tape i can get and assess. might not be the same tape jerry is looking at but nonetheless its something. and until you put the time into it yourself you have no ground to call anyone anything, cause as fan's when gildbride calls a ****ing shotgun draw you say to yourself i would of done this, or when we zone instead of blitz you think we can do this better guess what your Arm chair coaching, when you ***** about Osi's *****ing and what you would do with his contract your Arm chair General managing.</P>



</P>


just an un-narrow perspective
</P>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson&gt;martin or martin&gt;wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

the fact that denver was ahead of us the general consensus was that they were going to take either a DT/TE certainly not a RB; this is as far as consensus goes, pure speculation.
the buc's moved up i would like to think that the broncos knew who the buc's wanted to trade up for so that is doesn't impede who they wanted to get so that rules out RB as the broncos choices.
i can be wrong on that.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.

Jerry went on to say that they thought there was going to be a run on RB's in the second, that kind of hints a little that i might be a reach cause he predicted something that never happened only one RB got taken in the second.

which leads me to think had Martin been there he was probably going to be the pick. no fumble issues / good speed / can pick up blitzers / power back. he would of been week 1 ready, wilson has to work on keeping it high and tight and learning to pick up blocks in passing situations.

i also feel that RB probably was high on our boards of the pick @ 32 reese said the talent took a steep drop off after wilson. the buc's only traded up cause they probably thought the giant were going in the direction of RB and who was the next best after Richardson by consensus? Martin.

this altered what we possibly could of did at 32. if richardson was the only RB taken would reese of thought that there was going to be a run on RB's in the second? does he go another route say Still or Fleener? and hope that RB's just keep getting looked over until 63? if the buc's never traded up and it went as planned only change is giants don't pick wilson, denver picks whoever, then bucs in the second take martin and 9er's take either wilson or james and that leaves us with either wilson or james....

but we will never know so its a mute argument fellas


well said.. I agree..

CGYgiant
05-01-2012, 11:22 AM
this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.
Well, to be fair, its all part of the draft process.. Sometimes your gonna love the picks, and sometimes your not.. What are u supposed to do, say u like something when u don't? Its not like Reese dosen't miss on picks lke every other GM.. He did pick Jay Alford, Andre Brown, Bryan Kehl, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum(not enough production to warrent the pick yet), Andre Woodson, Phillip Dillard, Stoney Woodson, Clint Sintim, Rhett Bomar..etc I realize that i noted some mid to late rd picks, but i did so to show that there are misses mixed in throughout all rds.. I think there is enough misses to at least give your true feelings about the picks when there made.. Not to menton, whats the point of discussing picks, if all your gonna do is say , "i dislike the pick, but i trust reese"??? All u can do is make your case to why u do or don't like the pick and try and have "adult" like discussions.. TO me, theres more children like responses from the people who are all "reese rules" then the ones that are trying to be objective and discuss why they dont like the picks.. Its like your a enemy just becuase u don't agree with the pick.. I've put in enough time on these boards and int he draft threads, to at least be able to discuss why or why not i like a pick, without being treated like a dink, i would think.. </p>


I wonder where were all these people the last 4yrs, when i was all most annoyingly so having to debate as hard as ever, how great our drafts, and our UDF pickups were.. There were so many nay sayers, it was crazy!But, that was ok? The one yr i have some questions about some of our picks, is the one yr that the consensus loves it...lol Its strange, becasue the past several yrs, in my opinion, were hands down, easier drafts to sit back and say, "hey, we just killed it".. Thats just my opinoin of course, and i think the drafts of the past several yrs kinda support my arguement, seeing how those are the drafts, that got us saying " in reese we trust", right?
</p>


This is litteraly the first time i felt that we drafted just like other teams, and didn't just snatch up great values throughout.. Even when u do just snatch up great values, some won't hit, like a Ramses Barden, or Andre Brown proves, but it certainly in my opinon,gives u a better chance at hitting, i would think? I loved the fact we would take guys like Greg Jones in RD 6, while other teams passed em by because of this or that, and we'd just roll the dice on the fact the guy knows what hes doing, based on his production.. </p>


Either way, i dont think the draft was a big loss or anything, but i certainly have more questions about this draft, then any other draft we've had under reese...</p>




Ok im gonna make 1 last attempt to cheer you up by addressing the 2 main picks you had a problem with, Wilson and Randle.

I know you were a Martin &gt; Wilson guy. I have np with that, even though I didnt agree. The problem I have is that even though I was a Wilson guy, I acknowledged that they were very close prospects in value. I could understand why some had Martin over Wilson, even if I didnt agree. However, I do not think you do at all with regards to Wilson, I think you fell in love with Martin. Now, Ill make my case:

Look at it this way. Would you have rather given up 18 spots in the 4th and 22 picks in the 2nd round to choose Martin over Wilson? I am a Wilson guy, but I sure wouldnt have been happy if we had given up that much for Wilson over Martin. I think that is crazy. They were rated way to closely to give up that much for 1 over the other. Look at those 22 spots in the 2nd round, there are some pretty impressive guys who got selected there between pick 36 and pick 58 including the likes of Fleener, Glenn, Alshon Jeffery, Jenkins, Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Martin and many more. Look a those guys in the 4th, its a prettyi good list too, including Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, Evan Rodriguez, Robert Turbin, Nigel Bradham, Joe Adams to name a few.

Look at it from a value standpoint using the draft pick value chart (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft06/news/story?id=2410670). The Bucs moved up 5 spots from pick 36(540 point value) to pick 31(600 point value). That's a 60 point value jump they went up to get Martin.

You have been on record saying you liked the Bucs draft, I too like some of the players they got, but look how much they gave up to get Martin over Wilson:

-They swapped 2nd rounders , pick 36 to pick 58(-220 point value) and they swapped 4th rounders as well dropping from pick 101 to pick 126(-50 value.)

So from a pure value standpoint they gave up 270 points, roughly the equivalent of a mid 3rd round selection(equivalent of pick 76) in order to take Martin over Wilson. Look at pick 76 and tell me the guys on the board at that time arent worth more than whatever difference you percieve in these 2 backs. Here is a short list of player selected in that area: Brandon Brooks(pick 76), Mohamed Sanu(83), Bernard Pierce (84), Sean Spence(86), Demario Davis(77)

That is INSANELY poor value drafting on their part with regards to that pick.

Now lets talk about Ruben Randle. I know you werent fond of that pick either. Based on film and production I understood your point completely. You wanted Sanu(among others) over Randle. The problem is we have a fraction of the info on these 2 that Reese has. He interviewed both, he has doctors reports, strength training reports, intelligence tests etc . I have to believe there was a problem with Sanu that we couldnt see on film. I think there was likely a similar problem with regards to Cordy Glenn as well, a guy I liked very much for us.

I suspect, based on his answer to the media question posed to him leading up the draft about which NY team he would prefer to play for, that Sanu is not a smart kid. Not because he answered "The Jets", but because he answered period. Why alienate a prospective NFL team from drafting you? The moment I read that I knew 2 thing were probable 1) his interview with the Giants went very poorly. and/or 2) he is an idiot for Alienating a team that showed interest in him by bringing him in for an interview.

Conversely, we could not see how Ruben handled his interview. Maybe he showed aptitude beyond his age. Maybe he showed understanding of the offense leading the coaches to believe he can step in sooner. We have no idea what he showed. But whatever he did show, Reese liked it, and I trust Reese. Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch GM, but seeing the time these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives, but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say
</p>

this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.
They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.


As far as the value thing, it depends on who's board u look at.. Also, u gotta look at what the team(bucs in this case), all ready have, before analyzing what players they missed out on with pick they traded to move up and get martin.. They all ready drafted Mason Foster last yr, and just got Lavonte David this yr, and they just got Doug Martin, so that kinda makes Bernard PIerce a back they would never draft, especially with Blounte all ready on boad, and then they signed Vincent Jackson, and have Mike Williams and Arrelious Benn at WR, hence they have no need for Mo Sanu.. They even signed Carl Nicks in the offseason, which kinda rules out Brandon Brooks.. I'm making this point, because knowing that, they made the makes the move even better in my opinon of course..</p>


But, back to saying, "i'm gonna try and cheer you up".. Did u see my last sentence, my friend?</p>


EITHER WAY, I DON"T THINK THE DRAFT WAS A BIG LOSS OR ANYTHING BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS DRAFT THEN ANY OTHER FROM REESE.. Thats all i'm saying.. I do like the bucs draft alot, and its based on what they did in the offseason as well as what they did in the draft. For me, i combine everythign, and make my opinion, based on that.. The draft is a extension of FA'cy, and UDF's, are a extension of both, in my opinion..</p>


I'll i'm getting at, is we mines well not even have draft threads and prospect threads, and talk about what players we think are good and bad, if were all just gonna say, "i don't care who we drafted, becasue in reese we trust"..lol Don't u feel we put in just alittle to much time on theese draft threads over the yrs, to be that way? don't u thnk we looked at just alittle to much film to be that way? I mean, if so, i will officaly be done on these draft threads, becasue its utterly a waste of time..</p>



i agree and cosign this 100%



the whole reason why i started film studying the players more this year
to be prepared for the draft is because of last year. we drafted JPP i
was thoroughly pissed the **** off but i was pissed without a clue of
who JPP was, the type of player he was his stats, his motor or love for
the game. all i saw was DE and said omfg another DE.



When you put so much time into researching players some guys stand out
to you and you feel that they fit this team best, sort of like an
investment into the player, almost like your lobbying to others on these
very boards why he fits the system. i use to be one of those poster
that would say to someone like Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch
GM, but seeing the time
these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives,
but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say





this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.</p>



we don't fall in love we simply see the benefits of the pairing of
said player and team. this is the first year where i can name players
the teams they played for, ranks and where they were graded all the way
into the 7th round. i rather not listen to analyst i rater form my own
conclusions, i've played this sport maybe not at the collegiate level
but semi-pro ( brooklyn seminole ) high-school ( midwood hornets) pop
warner ( prospect heights blue hawks) i have good knowledge of the game
to look at tape whatever tape i can get and assess. might not be the
same tape jerry is looking at but nonetheless its something. and until
you put the time into it yourself you have no ground to call anyone
anything, cause as fan's when gildbride calls a ****ing shotgun draw you
say to yourself i would of done this, or when we zone instead of blitz
you think we can do this better guess what your Arm chair coaching, when
you ***** about Osi's *****ing and what you would do with his contract
your Arm chair General managing.</p>





</p>



just an un-narrow perspective
</p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson&gt;martin or martin&gt;wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

the fact that denver was ahead of us the general consensus was that they were going to take either a DT/TE certainly not a RB; this is as far as consensus goes, pure speculation.
the buc's moved up i would like to think that the broncos knew who the buc's wanted to trade up for so that is doesn't impede who they wanted to get so that rules out RB as the broncos choices.
i can be wrong on that.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.

Jerry went on to say that they thought there was going to be a run on RB's in the second, that kind of hints a little that i might be a reach cause he predicted something that never happened only one RB got taken in the second.

which leads me to think had Martin been there he was probably going to be the pick. no fumble issues / good speed / can pick up blitzers / power back. he would of been week 1 ready, wilson has to work on keeping it high and tight and learning to pick up blocks in passing situations.

i also feel that RB probably was high on our boards of the pick @ 32 reese said the talent took a steep drop off after wilson. the buc's only traded up cause they probably thought the giant were going in the direction of RB and who was the next best after Richardson by consensus? Martin.

this altered what we possibly could of did at 32. if richardson was the only RB taken would reese of thought that there was going to be a run on RB's in the second? does he go another route say Still or Fleener? and hope that RB's just keep getting looked over until 63? if the buc's never traded up and it went as planned only change is giants don't pick wilson, denver picks whoever, then bucs in the second take martin and 9er's take either wilson or james and that leaves us with either wilson or james....

but we will never know so its a mute argument fellas




I think a lot of people get invested in players, hell I also wanted Fleener more then anything. I thought he would really open up our offense. However, I also wanted Brian Robiskie over Hakeem Nicks a few years back so, yeah, the draft is a complete crap-shoot.

However, I get the chance some people think Jerry is lying about where he had Martin and I disagree with that assessment. Garafalo has trusted sources who mentioned that the Giants did indeed have Wilson number 2. Garafalo usually tells it like it is so I don't think either he or his sources or lying, why would they? I mean I understand why some people think Jerry would but I don't think it serves a point for his sources to lie.

I did like Martin pre draft since everyone here was talking about him. However, its become more and more important that Wilson is simply a better runner then Martin is. He even was at the college level. He has better balance, burst, and power in his game that Martin does IMO. Either would have been great as Martin has arguably better hands and can pass protect better.

BlueSanta
05-01-2012, 12:20 PM
now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson&gt;martin or martin&gt;wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.




I agree with a lot that you said. But this segment I cut out and the highlighted part is the part I am going to focus on because it just is NOT true.

A lot of analysts had varying grades on Rbs. For example, Kiper had Lamichael James as the #2 back in the draft. Saying "everyone" had Martin there there is just wrong. Walterfootball said after the combine that Wilson was the clear cut #2 back in many team's eyes. I agree we will never know what the Giants rb board looked like for sure, but in my opinion, the mere fact that they chose Wilson over Glenn, Fleener and some others tells me they must have had him very highly rated.

But, again, it doesnt matter who is #1 or #2 between Martin v Wilson. My issue is with people, like NYC, praising the Bucs draft after trading up to select Martin ahead of us. The reason , as I said above, is because even if you liked Martin more than Wilson, you have to admit that they were very close prospects. If you liked Wilson, as I did, it could only be slightly over Martin, . If you liked Martin, it could only be slightly over Wilson. Anything more, and you are "falling in love" and being dishonest with yourself, something the Bucs CLEARLY did because they gave away the value of a 3rd round pick in order to take Martin over Wilson. Ill say it again would you rather have Wilson and Jayron Hosely? Or would you rather have just Martin? Because on a value basis, the Bucs chose the later. They clearly "fell in love" with a prospect. The fact that NYC praises them for this move says to me that he did too.


I actually wouldnt have had a problem at all if we had selected Martin. I said I liked Wilson more but I completely understand how close a race it was. NYC immediately posted in the draft thread how it was a "bad pick." Thats fine, it is his opinion. But then in the 2nd leading up to our pick, all the TV analysts, including Mayock, all were saying how Randle is the best guy on the board. Yet, NYC was already up in arms praying we not pick him. Again, thats fine its his opinion. But you then cant turn around and argue how "all the analysts" had martin over Wilson AND then complain about Randle who "all the analysts" actually said was clearly the best value on the board. Its hypicritical. You just say it is a bad pick because you didnt like him.

This thread is about people forgetting to "Trust reese." Everyone has opinions, me included, I certainly would have picked some guys differently. I freely admit even prior to the draft that I hoped Cordy Glenn fell to us. But, I am not self centered enough to accuse Reese of having "his worst draft" or "breaking away from his mold" based on my opinions. I recognize that Reese has WAY more info at his disposal than I do, and is a proven 2 time superowl winning GM. If he says David Wilson is better for us than Cordy Glenn, for whatever reason, I believe him. I do not accuse him of "our worst draft in years."

CGYgiant
05-01-2012, 12:24 PM
now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson&gt;martin or martin&gt;wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.




I agree with a lot that you said. But this segment I cut out and the highlighted part is the part I am going to focus on because it just is NOT true.

A lot of analysts had varying grades on Rbs. For example, Kiper had Lamichael James as the #2 back in the draft. Saying "everyone" had Martin there there is just wrong. Walterfootball said after the combine that Wilson was the clear cut #2 back in many team's eyes. I agree we will never know what the Giants rb board looked like for sure, but in my opinion, the mere fact that they chose Wilson over Glenn, Fleener and some others tells me they must have had him very highly rated.

But, again, it doesnt matter who is #1 or #2 between Martin v Wilson. My issue is with people, like NYC, praising the Bucs draft after trading up to select Martin ahead of us. The reason , as I said above, is because even if you liked Martin more than Wilson, you have to admit that they were very close prospects. If you liked Wilson, as I did, it could only be slightly over Martin, . If you liked Martin, it could only be slightly over Wilson. Anything more, and you are "falling in love" and being dishonest with yourself, something the Bucs CLEARLY did because they gave away the value of a 3rd round pick in order to take Martin over Wilson. Ill say it again would you rather have Wilson and Jayron Hosely? Or would you rather have just Martin? Because on a value basis, the Bucs chose the later. They clearly "fell in love" with a prospect. The fact that NYC praises them for this move says to me that he did too.


I actually wouldnt have had a problem at all if we had selected Martin. I said I liked Wilson more but I completely understand how close a race it was. NYC immediately posted in the draft thread how it was a "bad pick." Thats fine, it is his opinion. But then in the 2nd leading up to our pick, all the TV analysts, including Mayock, all were saying how Randle is the best guy on the board. Yet, NYC was already up in arms praying we not pick him. Again, thats fine its his opinion. But you then cant turn around and argue how "all the analysts" had martin over Wilson AND then complain about Randle who "all the analysts" actually said was clearly the best value on the board. Its hypicritical. You just say it is a bad pick because you didnt like him.

This thread is about people forgetting to "Trust reese." Everyone has opinions, me included, I certainly would have picked some guys differently. I freely admit even prior to the draft that I hoped Cordy Glenn fell to us. But, I am not self centered enough to accuse Reese of having "his worst draft" or "breaking away from his mold" based on my opinions. I recognize that Reese has WAY more info at his disposal than I do, and is a proven 2 time superowl winning GM. If he says David Wilson is better for us than Cordy Glenn, for whatever reason, I believe him. I do not accuse him of "our worst draft in years."


+1

very well said.

nevada11
05-01-2012, 03:02 PM
I actually wouldnt have had a problem at all if we had selected Martin. I said I liked Wilson more but I completely understand how close a race it was. NYC immediately posted in the draft thread how it was a "bad pick." Thats fine, it is his opinion. But then in the 2nd leading up to our pick, all the TV analysts, including Mayock, all were saying how Randle is the best guy on the board. Yet, NYC was already up in arms praying we not pick him. Again, thats fine its his opinion. But you then cant turn around and argue how "all the analysts" had martin over Wilson AND then complain about Randle who "all the analysts" actually said was clearly the best value on the board. Its hypicritical. You just say it is a bad pick because you didnt like him

BlueSanta, you are beating on a dead horse. He will never undestand nor get it. He will stay very hard to his silly beliefs about his anti-draft agenda of what the Giants did

"IN REESE WE TRUST"

RoanokeFan
05-01-2012, 03:56 PM
But don't you get the feeling they only picked him because Martin was gone? Doesn't Cordy Glenn or Stephen Hill make a little more sense? Not saying this guys going to be bad, just seems like he's another Bradshaw, not a bad thing, but I don't feel like we got better with this pick.

I kind of thought we could address RB later in the draft.


This isn't a comment just for you so please don't take it personally. The team has an entire staff of professionals who do nothing all year long but observe, track and evaluate college talent. They talk to players' coaches, trainers, and almost anyone else who can help the scouts form a complete picture of the players including any personal indiscretions.

Then they watch film, attend games focusing on players of interest, and on and on it goes. By the time a player announces he's coming out of college, they have amassed tons of information that they use to create their draft boards.

Do any of us really believe we could possibly know better?

nycsportzfan
05-01-2012, 06:46 PM
now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson&gt;martin or martin&gt;wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.




I agree with a lot that you said. But this segment I cut out and the highlighted part is the part I am going to focus on because it just is NOT true.

A lot of analysts had varying grades on Rbs. For example, Kiper had Lamichael James as the #2 back in the draft. Saying "everyone" had Martin there there is just wrong. Walterfootball said after the combine that Wilson was the clear cut #2 back in many team's eyes. I agree we will never know what the Giants rb board looked like for sure, but in my opinion, the mere fact that they chose Wilson over Glenn, Fleener and some others tells me they must have had him very highly rated.

But, again, it doesnt matter who is #1 or #2 between Martin v Wilson. My issue is with people, like NYC, praising the Bucs draft after trading up to select Martin ahead of us. The reason , as I said above, is because even if you liked Martin more than Wilson, you have to admit that they were very close prospects. If you liked Wilson, as I did, it could only be slightly over Martin, . If you liked Martin, it could only be slightly over Wilson. Anything more, and you are "falling in love" and being dishonest with yourself, something the Bucs CLEARLY did because they gave away the value of a 3rd round pick in order to take Martin over Wilson. Ill say it again would you rather have Wilson and Jayron Hosely? Or would you rather have just Martin? Because on a value basis, the Bucs chose the later. They clearly "fell in love" with a prospect. The fact that NYC praises them for this move says to me that he did too.


I actually wouldnt have had a problem at all if we had selected Martin. I said I liked Wilson more but I completely understand how close a race it was. NYC immediately posted in the draft thread how it was a "bad pick." Thats fine, it is his opinion. But then in the 2nd leading up to our pick, all the TV analysts, including Mayock, all were saying how Randle is the best guy on the board. Yet, NYC was already up in arms praying we not pick him. Again, thats fine its his opinion. But you then cant turn around and argue how "all the analysts" had martin over Wilson AND then complain about Randle who "all the analysts" actually said was clearly the best value on the board. Its hypicritical. You just say it is a bad pick because you didnt like him.

This thread is about people forgetting to "Trust reese." Everyone has opinions, me included, I certainly would have picked some guys differently. I freely admit even prior to the draft that I hoped Cordy Glenn fell to us. But, I am not self centered enough to accuse Reese of having "his worst draft" or "breaking away from his mold" based on my opinions. I recognize that Reese has WAY more info at his disposal than I do, and is a proven 2 time superowl winning GM. If he says David Wilson is better for us than Cordy Glenn, for whatever reason, I believe him. I do not accuse him of "our worst draft in years."
First off, Mayock, who seems to be praised around here, Had Doug Martin as his 17th ranked prospect, and david WIlson as his 33rd ranked prospect, so was he falling in love with Doug Martin, because thats a pretty big diffrence? </P>


2nd off, get your facts straight if your gonna try and quote people on what they said about the draft.. go back and take a look at what i said right after the draft pick of David Wilson.. YOur right, some actually said they hated the pick, REDEYE said "AWFUL PICK", and a few others said things similar, but my exact words were " I DON"T CARE FOR THE PICK, THINK WE'D OF TAKEN DOUG MARTIN IF HE WERE THERE"... NO more, no less.. </P>


So i will ask, what are u talking about? I continuously said, i just didn't like the value.. I never said the guy is gonna stink or anything like that.. I truly believe Doug Martin would of been the guy, so what????? Is that so far fetched to you? And u act like i'm the only one who loved the BUCS move of trading up for Doug Martin.. Do u not see they all ready had drafted for there secondary with Mark Barron, and did wonders in FA'cy, so they felt more then fine with passing on Jayron Hosley.. As much as i like Hosley, i don't find it far fetched to think a team that did very well in FA'cy and in RD 1, and knowing they had more picks still, were ok with getting Doug Martin who they liked alot, as many did, compared to having David Wilson and Jayron Hosley... I don't think there sitting back saying, "oh man, we missed out on Jayron Hosley"...lol Some people do think theres a big diffrence between Doug Martin and David Wilson, and some don't.. Its not a 1way street, and only a couple feel that way... Almost every where i looked, people had Doug Martin ahead of David Wilson, and he flew past em in a short period of time... </P>


I've always stood by that, as i was saying that in our draft thread months ago.. I was saying Doug Martin was clearly the 2nd best back behind Tr Richardson well before he was even guranteed to go in RD 2, let alone RD 1! And as far as Randle, i just don't like em, so what? He reminds me to much of Brandon Lafell.. Sure, the Value was right, but i just coulden't get on board with the pick... But again, i never said I HATE THE WILSON PICK, or That i think WILSON won't help.. Hes intriguing, i just didn't care for the Value, is all.. So, next time write the right things, when trying to quote people.. </P>

nycsportzfan
05-01-2012, 06:57 PM
now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson&gt;martin or martin&gt;wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.




I agree with a lot that you said. But this segment I cut out and the highlighted part is the part I am going to focus on because it just is NOT true.

A lot of analysts had varying grades on Rbs. For example, Kiper had Lamichael James as the #2 back in the draft. Saying "everyone" had Martin there there is just wrong. Walterfootball said after the combine that Wilson was the clear cut #2 back in many team's eyes. I agree we will never know what the Giants rb board looked like for sure, but in my opinion, the mere fact that they chose Wilson over Glenn, Fleener and some others tells me they must have had him very highly rated.

But, again, it doesnt matter who is #1 or #2 between Martin v Wilson. My issue is with people, like NYC, praising the Bucs draft after trading up to select Martin ahead of us. The reason , as I said above, is because even if you liked Martin more than Wilson, you have to admit that they were very close prospects. If you liked Wilson, as I did, it could only be slightly over Martin, . If you liked Martin, it could only be slightly over Wilson. Anything more, and you are "falling in love" and being dishonest with yourself, something the Bucs CLEARLY did because they gave away the value of a 3rd round pick in order to take Martin over Wilson. Ill say it again would you rather have Wilson and Jayron Hosely? Or would you rather have just Martin? Because on a value basis, the Bucs chose the later. They clearly "fell in love" with a prospect. The fact that NYC praises them for this move says to me that he did too.


I actually wouldnt have had a problem at all if we had selected Martin. I said I liked Wilson more but I completely understand how close a race it was. NYC immediately posted in the draft thread how it was a "bad pick." Thats fine, it is his opinion. But then in the 2nd leading up to our pick, all the TV analysts, including Mayock, all were saying how Randle is the best guy on the board. Yet, NYC was already up in arms praying we not pick him. Again, thats fine its his opinion. But you then cant turn around and argue how "all the analysts" had martin over Wilson AND then complain about Randle who "all the analysts" actually said was clearly the best value on the board. Its hypicritical. You just say it is a bad pick because you didnt like him.

This thread is about people forgetting to "Trust reese." Everyone has opinions, me included, I certainly would have picked some guys differently. I freely admit even prior to the draft that I hoped Cordy Glenn fell to us. But, I am not self centered enough to accuse Reese of having "his worst draft" or "breaking away from his mold" based on my opinions. I recognize that Reese has WAY more info at his disposal than I do, and is a proven 2 time superowl winning GM. If he says David Wilson is better for us than Cordy Glenn, for whatever reason, I believe him. I do not accuse him of "our worst draft in years."
Heres my Post to u about the pick... Wanna tell me where i said it was a bad pick??? Just hering what u wanna here, ey???Notice the "all though thats just my opinion, i can't be for sure", part?? hmmm? Dosen't look like i was just like "bad pick" and thats all, ey??</P>


"The bucs knew we were taking a RB, andi think it was clear that Martin had the more complete package, hence why teams traded up for him, and hes moved ahead of Wlson and Miller almost by every draft guru around, except a few exceptions.. I'm telling you my friend, Martin is next to be the R.Rice/MJD line of RB.. Don't get me wrong, i know Wilson has some upside and could be a HR for us, i just didn't care for the value, nor a couple small things he does, like try to make yards by going back wards when the play is clearly dead in teh water... I also don't care for his body type, i kinda wanted a back that was gonna be able to be a workhorse if need be, and Doug Martin has a body builders frame, and i think could take a pounding over the yrs better, all though thats just my opinion, i can't say for sure.... </P>


Either way, i can't wait to see Wilson get on the field, and i'm still very excited to have em, just not a back i was super high on, and the way the first rd played out, i thoguht there was better value..."</P>
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BlueSanta
05-01-2012, 11:23 PM
<hr align="left" size="1" width="25%">
Ill start by addressing your talk of body type.
and just look at all the best backs in the league, guys like Ray Rice,
MJD, Foster, AP, Forte,Mike Turner, Steven Jackson..etc Almost all the
best backs in the league are bigger then Wilson..But, I will compare apples to apples, unlike you. You say Wilson will only be a tandem back and Martin wont. You based this on Wilson's combine weight of 206.

Here are some combine weights of some players, many of whom you brought up(and more). MJD wieghed 207 , Ray Rice weighed 199,
LeSean McCoy weight 204. Barry Sanders 200lbs, Emitt Smith 206lbs

So, you have 3 of the top 5 leading rushers in the NFL last year who
weight the same or less as Wilson at the combine and you have the 2 most
productive rushers in NFL history who weighed less than Wilson coming
out of college. Oh and lastly, Wilson's height /weight right now is identical to what Tiki's was during his prime, thought he too weighed much less coming out of college. But, I thank you for bringing up some of those players to help prove yourself incorrect. Oh , and Wilson is only 20 so he has time to add weight if needed just like all those other backs you brought up that backfired on you.

Now, onto your comments about the picks itself:



Awful pick I
don't care for it either.. I'm almost certain we'd of taken Doug Martin
now, if he were there...

That gem was immediately after the pick. Im sure you must have some inside connection because no WAY would Reese's opinion vary from your's....


Here is your comment shortly after the 1st round pick which supports the hypocrisy I pointed out above about refering to analyst points when it helps you but not when it hurts you
It takes a special RB to get into Mike Mayocks top 20 in my opinion

Interestingly enough when it was our turn to pick Mayock said on TV " The Giants always go Value. So, maybe a guy like David Wilson." but, that means nothing to you.

Then when asked at our 63rd pick( and a couple picks before it) who was the absolute best value pick on the board at that time Mayock said "Rueben Randle" but your response to the pick was
wow, this sucks... Mayock's opinion doesnt matter to you anymore?

In fact, you also said just prior to the pick and after it ....
I'd rather have Sanu then Randle.. Yet, Mayock had Sanu as a late 3rd rounder and Randle as a 2nd rounder.

So again, according to you, our draft after the 1st 2 rounds "sucks" because you didnt agree with it, not because it wasnt a good value pick, which Mayock said was the case as did Reese. nah, by then you got off the Mayock Bandwagon and went with Kiper because mayock's opinion doesnt agree with you anymore "
Kiper says he(Randle) didn't see explosion.. Wow,
bad shuttle, bad vertical... Hard to fall in love with him on tape..
Great! Love hereing all this great stuff.

You quote whoever supports your opinion...... You think Kiper knows more than Reese??

So tell me again, how exactly did you trust in Reese? How did you not complain about our picks? Please tell me how you didnt say this mock was Reese "breaking his mold" based only on the fact that he didnt pick the guys you wanted. Seriously, i could dig up way more that thread is very deep. I never got to some of the other picks you didnt like.

So again, Im sorry we didnt pick your guys. Many of the picks we agreed on, like Allen. I thought he might be our 2nd round pick. But, I think I have said it many times before the draft. If I like someone and it turns out Reese doesnt, Ill be happy to go with his choice over mine. But, not you. Nah, you only like the picks we made that YOU predicted. You just complain and whine about it and commend all the teams that picked "your guys" as having had a good draft, even if they WAY overpaid for the pick(like the bucs did for Martin.) Then, when someone tries to show you a different view, you call them names or go on the attack.


What are u talking about? Your a complete idiot, dude.. Get lost, u buffon!


Stop drinking, dude..



Shut up, u freaing dweeb!

Wow, you are seriously like a 4yr old.

I think this says it all. There is no need to debate with you anymore. In fact, I dont even have to debate you because your own words contradict you left and right as the post above shows.

nycsportzfan
05-02-2012, 04:04 AM
<HR align=left width="25%" SIZE=1>

Ill start by addressing your talk of body type.
and just look at all the best backs in the league, guys like Ray Rice, MJD, Foster, AP, Forte,Mike Turner, Steven Jackson..etc Almost all the best backs in the league are bigger then Wilson..But, I will compare apples to apples, unlike you. You say Wilson will only be a tandem back and Martin wont. You based this on Wilson's combine weight of 206.

Here are some combine weights of some players, many of whom you brought up(and more). MJD wieghed 207 , Ray Rice weighed 199, LeSean McCoy weight 204. Barry Sanders 200lbs, Emitt Smith 206lbs

So, you have 3 of the top 5 leading rushers in the NFL last year who weight the same or less as Wilson at the combine and you have the 2 most productive rushers in NFL history who weighed less than Wilson coming out of college. Oh and lastly, Wilson's height /weight right now is identical to what Tiki's was during his prime, thought he too weighed much less coming out of college. But, I thank you for bringing up some of those players to help prove yourself incorrect. Oh , and Wilson is only 20 so he has time to add weight if needed just like all those other backs you brought up that backfired on you.

Now, onto your comments about the picks itself:



Awful pick I don't care for it either.. I'm almost certain we'd of taken Doug Martin now, if he were there...

That gem was immediately after the pick. Im sure you must have some inside connection because no WAY would Reese's opinion vary from your's....


Here is your comment shortly after the 1st round pick which supports the hypocrisy I pointed out above about refering to analyst points when it helps you but not when it hurts you
It takes a special RB to get into Mike Mayocks top 20 in my opinion

Interestingly enough when it was our turn to pick Mayock said on TV " The Giants always go Value. So, maybe a guy like David Wilson." but, that means nothing to you.

Then when asked at our 63rd pick( and a couple picks before it) who was the absolute best value pick on the board at that time Mayock said "Rueben Randle" but your response to the pick was
wow, this sucks... Mayock's opinion doesnt matter to you anymore?

In fact, you also said just prior to the pick and after it ....
I'd rather have Sanu then Randle.. Yet, Mayock had Sanu as a late 3rd rounder and Randle as a 2nd rounder.

So again, according to you, our draft after the 1st 2 rounds "sucks" because you didnt agree with it, not because it wasnt a good value pick, which Mayock said was the case as did Reese. nah, by then you got off the Mayock Bandwagon and went with Kiper because mayock's opinion doesnt agree with you anymore "
Kiper says he(Randle) didn't see explosion.. Wow, bad shuttle, bad vertical... Hard to fall in love with him on tape.. Great! Love hereing all this great stuff.

You quote whoever supports your opinion...... You think Kiper knows more than Reese??

So tell me again, how exactly did you trust in Reese? How did you not complain about our picks? Please tell me how you didnt say this mock was Reese "breaking his mold" based only on the fact that he didnt pick the guys you wanted. Seriously, i could dig up way more that thread is very deep. I never got to some of the other picks you didnt like.

So again, Im sorry we didnt pick your guys. Many of the picks we agreed on, like Allen. I thought he might be our 2nd round pick. But, I think I have said it many times before the draft. If I like someone and it turns out Reese doesnt, Ill be happy to go with his choice over mine. But, not you. Nah, you only like the picks we made that YOU predicted. You just complain and whine about it and commend all the teams that picked "your guys" as having had a good draft, even if they WAY overpaid for the pick(like the bucs did for Martin.) Then, when someone tries to show you a different view, you call them names or go on the attack.

What are u talking about? Your a complete idiot, dude.. Get lost, u buffon!

Stop drinking, dude..

Shut up, u freaing dweeb!

Wow, you are seriously like a 4yr old.

I think this says it all. There is no need to debate with you anymore. In fact, I dont even have to debate you because your own words contradict you left and right as the post above shows.



First of all, u always post what u want, without all the facts.. In response to me calling that dude a bafoon, was because of the way he was responding to me, in many diffrent posts, like a child all most.. And the way he had spoke to many others as well.. I'm not gonna go get all the posts, but trust me he had it coming.. I never spoke to any body like that other then that immature kid... He deserved it.. He can't debate without being ridiculously immature if u don't agree.. I never and mean, NEVER, call any one anything unless there the instigator first.. So, that settles that..</P>


2nd of, u bring up GEM? because i said, i didn't care for it eitehr?? WHOOOAAA!! HOLY COW! I'm just tearing down the draft, holy smokes!!!!(SARCASM)...LMAO! Get real, dude!!! Seriously, that wasen't me, who said "AWFUL PICK".. And there was quite a few others with remarks similar to that..</P>


I'm still waiting for u to post where i said that by the way? U did say that i said that in a above post, right? I really don't see how saying "i don't care for it either", is the same as saying it was a horrible, or awful pick? Did u again, forget to post this part that i said?
I bet you did forget that, ey?? Keep spewing your garbage, my friend..Maybe u got mixed up with Redeyes or Lawl or one of the others that downed the pick like that, but u are sorely mistaken with me , my friend.. The only draft pick i truly didn't like was REUBEN RANDLE.. Wow, i'm such a draft trasher!!! I'll try and be a robot for you next yr, and not say my Opinion, which i did mention about 100times, that it was only my opinion.. Guess that didn't make it into your inquisitive posts either, ey? Its called a discussion, and i was saying what i felt about the paticular player, and actually, i had it on ESPN, and not NFL.COM, so i coulden't really tell what Mayock or anyone was saying about each individul pick, if thats OK with you?</P>


I'm still wondering how me saying what Mel Kiper said about Reuben Randle, and me posting about not being excited about what he said, has anything to do with me bringing up mayocks opinon or anyones for that matter??? What are u talking about????LMAO!</P>


"Either way, i can't wait to see Wilson get on the field, and i'm still very excited to have em, just not a back i was super high on, and the way the first rd played out, i thoguht there was better value..."</P>


</P>
<HR align=left width="25%" SIZE=1>

nycsportzfan
05-02-2012, 04:16 AM
<HR align=left width="25%" SIZE=1>

Ill start by addressing your talk of body type.
and just look at all the best backs in the league, guys like Ray Rice, MJD, Foster, AP, Forte,Mike Turner, Steven Jackson..etc Almost all the best backs in the league are bigger then Wilson..But, I will compare apples to apples, unlike you. You say Wilson will only be a tandem back and Martin wont. You based this on Wilson's combine weight of 206.

Here are some combine weights of some players, many of whom you brought up(and more). MJD wieghed 207 , Ray Rice weighed 199, LeSean McCoy weight 204. Barry Sanders 200lbs, Emitt Smith 206lbs

So, you have 3 of the top 5 leading rushers in the NFL last year who weight the same or less as Wilson at the combine and you have the 2 most productive rushers in NFL history who weighed less than Wilson coming out of college. Oh and lastly, Wilson's height /weight right now is identical to what Tiki's was during his prime, thought he too weighed much less coming out of college. But, I thank you for bringing up some of those players to help prove yourself incorrect. Oh , and Wilson is only 20 so he has time to add weight if needed just like all those other backs you brought up that backfired on you.

Now, onto your comments about the picks itself:



Awful pick I don't care for it either.. I'm almost certain we'd of taken Doug Martin now, if he were there...

That gem was immediately after the pick. Im sure you must have some inside connection because no WAY would Reese's opinion vary from your's....


Here is your comment shortly after the 1st round pick which supports the hypocrisy I pointed out above about refering to analyst points when it helps you but not when it hurts you
It takes a special RB to get into Mike Mayocks top 20 in my opinion

Interestingly enough when it was our turn to pick Mayock said on TV " The Giants always go Value. So, maybe a guy like David Wilson." but, that means nothing to you.

Then when asked at our 63rd pick( and a couple picks before it) who was the absolute best value pick on the board at that time Mayock said "Rueben Randle" but your response to the pick was
wow, this sucks... Mayock's opinion doesnt matter to you anymore?

In fact, you also said just prior to the pick and after it ....
I'd rather have Sanu then Randle.. Yet, Mayock had Sanu as a late 3rd rounder and Randle as a 2nd rounder.

So again, according to you, our draft after the 1st 2 rounds "sucks" because you didnt agree with it, not because it wasnt a good value pick, which Mayock said was the case as did Reese. nah, by then you got off the Mayock Bandwagon and went with Kiper because mayock's opinion doesnt agree with you anymore "
Kiper says he(Randle) didn't see explosion.. Wow, bad shuttle, bad vertical... Hard to fall in love with him on tape.. Great! Love hereing all this great stuff.

You quote whoever supports your opinion...... You think Kiper knows more than Reese??

So tell me again, how exactly did you trust in Reese? How did you not complain about our picks? Please tell me how you didnt say this mock was Reese "breaking his mold" based only on the fact that he didnt pick the guys you wanted. Seriously, i could dig up way more that thread is very deep. I never got to some of the other picks you didnt like.

So again, Im sorry we didnt pick your guys. Many of the picks we agreed on, like Allen. I thought he might be our 2nd round pick. But, I think I have said it many times before the draft. If I like someone and it turns out Reese doesnt, Ill be happy to go with his choice over mine. But, not you. Nah, you only like the picks we made that YOU predicted. You just complain and whine about it and commend all the teams that picked "your guys" as having had a good draft, even if they WAY overpaid for the pick(like the bucs did for Martin.) Then, when someone tries to show you a different view, you call them names or go on the attack.

What are u talking about? Your a complete idiot, dude.. Get lost, u buffon!

Stop drinking, dude..

Shut up, u freaing dweeb!

Wow, you are seriously like a 4yr old.

I think this says it all. There is no need to debate with you anymore. In fact, I dont even have to debate you because your own words contradict you left and right as the post above shows.



First of all, u always post what u want, without all the facts.. In response to me calling that dude a bafoon, was because of the way he was responding to me, in many diffrent posts, like a child all most.. And the way he had spoke to many others as well.. I'm not gonna go get all the posts, but trust me he had it coming.. I never spoke to any body like that other then that immature kid... He deserved it.. He can't debate without being ridiculously immature if u don't agree.. I never and mean, NEVER, call any one anything unless there the instigator first.. So, that settles that..


</P>


2nd of, u bring up GEM? because i said, i didn't care for it eitehr?? WHOOOAAA!! HOLY COW! I'm just tearing down the draft, holy smokes!!!!(SARCASM)...LMAO! Get real, dude!!! Seriously, that wasen't me, who said "AWFUL PICK".. And there was quite a few others with remarks similar to that..</P>


I'm still waiting for u to post where i said that by the way? U did say that i said that in a above post, right? I really don't see how saying "i don't care for it either", is the same as saying it was a horrible, or awful pick? Did u again, forget to post this part that i said?
I bet you did forget that, ey?? Keep spewing your garbage, my friend..Maybe u got mixed up with Redeyes or Lawl or one of the others that downed the pick like that, but u are sorely mistaken with me , my friend.. The only draft pick i truly didn't like was REUBEN RANDLE.. Wow, i'm such a draft trasher!!! I'll try and be a robot for you next yr, and not say my Opinion, which i did mention about 100times, that it was only my opinion.. Guess that didn't make it into your inquisitive posts either, ey? Its called a discussion, and i was saying what i felt about the paticular player, and actually, i had it on ESPN, and not NFL.COM, so i coulden't really tell what Mayock or anyone was saying about each individul pick, if thats OK with you?</P>


I'm still wondering how me saying what Mel Kiper said about Reuben Randle, and me posting about not being excited about what he said, has anything to do with me bringing up mayocks opinon or anyones for that matter??? What are u talking about????LMAO!</P>


"Either way, i can't wait to see Wilson get on the field, and i'm still very excited to have em, just not a back i was super high on, and the way the first rd played out, i thoguht there was better value..."</P>


</P>



<HR align=left width="25%" SIZE=1>
Also, by saying it takes a special RB to be in Mayocks Top 20, all i'm saying is that it must be a Good RB, because he dosen't have a ton of RB's in this TOP 20 that often...LOL Whoa!! Again, sorry i'm such a basher or contradicter or whatever your trying to get at(Sarcasm).. </P>


Did i say anything like " oh mayocks got em in his top 20, that means i like every one of his top 20 players no matter what"??? I could care less about Mayock or Kiper, as far as where or what they have going on, but we are on a Draft Thread if u haven't noticed, and if theres ever a time to discuss every and all things draft, then thats the time.. So, sure every now and again, i'll post something i happen to see or catches my eye, it certainly has nothing to do with anything to simply support my arguement.. I like players i like, and i have proof every which way and up and down on this very forum, to prove that.. So, if u want to take 2posts and contort em the way u want, then by all means, be my guest..
I fore one, could care less.. I still think Reuben Randle isn't gonna be squat, and i still am very intrigued by david wilson, and excited to see em on the field, and i still like the 2 OT picks, and i still think the value was terrible on Adrien Robinson, and I still think the Hosley pick was probably our best, all though i really do like the OT picks as well, and have flip flopped some trying to decide what picks i like the most, and i still have no clue who Kuhn is, and i still love the Janzen Jackson pickup.. </P>


So, if thats trashing the draft, or whatever the helll your getting at, then call me the Trash man!!!</P>

nevada11
05-02-2012, 07:10 PM
First of all, u always post what u want, without all the facts.. In response to me calling that dude a bafoon, was because of the way he was responding to me, in many diffrent posts, like a child all most..* And the way he had spoke to many others as well.. I'm not gonna go get all the posts, but trust me he had it coming.. I never spoke to any body like that other then that immature kid...* He deserved it.. He can't debate without being ridiculously immature if u don't agree.. I never and mean, NEVER, call any one anything unless there the instigator first.. So, that settles that

I looove how you say im going crazy because people have a different opinion than mine. No thats YOU

You were going nuts when people had a problem with you bashing the giants picks. You were saying dumb things like "David wilson sucked at the last 2 games of the year" when infact this guy had 6 STRAIGHT 100-yard games in the regular season. love how you pull out one quote like that describes and eliminates all of the other negative things u were saying

u were filliping out when people had a problem with you being the GM and saying some picks werent good because they didnt pick what YOU wanted. the adrien robinson pick was supposedly a bad pick because YOU think we could have got him in the 7th round. YOU ARE NOT THE GM, DONT YOU GET IT?

Give ur opinions about the palyers, whatevs. But dont for a second tell everyone that are picks are bad or that it isnt good because you personally didnt like that player or that some freakin mock draft had adrien robinson going in the 7th round so that means we should not have drafted him in the 4th round

You have the nerve to say its the worst reese draft when none of these players played a down yet. you are one stubborn, ****y dude

nevada11
05-02-2012, 07:13 PM
i will officaly be done on these draft threads, becasue its utterly a waste of time

Good riddance. We don't need a "sitting on my couch general manager" shove down our throats that this is the worst draft of the reese era, picks weren't good because they didnt draft a prospect YOU liked, you ripping players like david wilson for no reason, and stupid sayings about players being a reach because Robinson was never mocked as a 4th round pick (it was even reported dallas was eyeing him early)

Good riddance.. again. Any smart person can see this was a solid draft that did not include bad players or reach picks

nycsportzfan
05-02-2012, 07:39 PM
<LI>
Yes sanu wanting to play for the jets makes him a moron. Not because he would likely start for the jets, but bcus he bombed his interview with the giants. Arguably one of the most smartest receivers in this draft on the field, is a ****** because he fell to the 3rd and was passed by gmen Pft. Giants had randle as a 1st rnd talent and sanu lower. Stop over analyzing with completely moronic theories bluesanta Heres a perfect example of why i called that dude a bafoon.. How do u respond to people like this? Its ridiculous!!!lol</LI>

nycsportzfan
05-02-2012, 07:47 PM
First of all, u always post what u want, without all the facts.. In response to me calling that dude a bafoon, was because of the way he was responding to me, in many diffrent posts, like a child all most.. And the way he had spoke to many others as well.. I'm not gonna go get all the posts, but trust me he had it coming.. I never spoke to any body like that other then that immature kid... He deserved it.. He can't debate without being ridiculously immature if u don't agree.. I never and mean, NEVER, call any one anything unless there the instigator first.. So, that settles that I looove how you say im going crazy because people have a different opinion than mine. No thats YOU You were going nuts when people had a problem with you bashing the giants picks. You were saying dumb things like "David wilson sucked at the last 2 games of the year" when infact this guy had 6 STRAIGHT 100-yard games in the regular season. love how you pull out one quote like that describes and eliminates all of the other negative things u were saying u were filliping out when people had a problem with you being the GM and saying some picks werent good because they didnt pick what YOU wanted. the adrien robinson pick was supposedly a bad pick because YOU think we could have got him in the 7th round. YOU ARE NOT THE GM, DONT YOU GET IT? Give ur opinions about the palyers, whatevs. But dont for a second tell everyone that are picks are bad or that it isnt good because you personally didnt like that player or that some freakin mock draft had adrien robinson going in the 7th round so that means we should not have drafted him in the 4th round You have the nerve to say its the worst reese draft when none of these players played a down yet. you are one stubborn, ****y dude Dude, your useless, and a liar.. I have no time for a liar.. I never said David Wilson sucked at any point in time.. I said, it seemed as though he "WORE" down as the yr went on, and his 2last games kinda showed that, as he barley avg'd over 3yrds per carry against CLem and Mich...</P>


And next, i'll say whatever i want.. I do it respectfully and 99pct of the time, i write "IN MY OPINION".. Oh well, if i didn't like the RANDLE pick, nor like em as a prospect.. So what? I'll post it over and over and over again if i darn well please... In my opinion, it was a player who isn't that good, and i think is gonna be a bust(hopefully i'm wrong).. I don't need to see him Play for us before i say that.. Its the freaking DRAFT THREAD! Thats what we do on the draft thread.. We discuss our opinions and how we feel about the picks, weather good or bad..</P>


I wasen't the one who right away said "AWFUL PICK", or "WILSON IS A USELESS BACK".. That was Redeye and Lawl, both Posters who i really respect, and if thats there opinion, or if they just felt like that initally and changed there minds, whatever! I could care less, becasue its there right to post how they feel.. Its my right, to respond to there posts respectufully if i so feel that way..</P>


And finally, i was never flipping out about anything at any time.. What are u talking about??? Grow up!!! You got issues.. Stop lieing and right facts down, and don't tell me what I was doing, because u have no clue...</P>

CGYgiant
05-02-2012, 08:19 PM
First of all, u always post what u want, without all the facts.. In response to me calling that dude a bafoon, was because of the way he was responding to me, in many diffrent posts, like a child all most.. And the way he had spoke to many others as well.. I'm not gonna go get all the posts, but trust me he had it coming.. I never spoke to any body like that other then that immature kid... He deserved it.. He can't debate without being ridiculously immature if u don't agree.. I never and mean, NEVER, call any one anything unless there the instigator first.. So, that settles that I looove how you say im going crazy because people have a different opinion than mine. No thats YOU You were going nuts when people had a problem with you bashing the giants picks. You were saying dumb things like "David wilson sucked at the last 2 games of the year" when infact this guy had 6 STRAIGHT 100-yard games in the regular season. love how you pull out one quote like that describes and eliminates all of the other negative things u were saying u were filliping out when people had a problem with you being the GM and saying some picks werent good because they didnt pick what YOU wanted. the adrien robinson pick was supposedly a bad pick because YOU think we could have got him in the 7th round. YOU ARE NOT THE GM, DONT YOU GET IT? Give ur opinions about the palyers, whatevs. But dont for a second tell everyone that are picks are bad or that it isnt good because you personally didnt like that player or that some freakin mock draft had adrien robinson going in the 7th round so that means we should not have drafted him in the 4th round You have the nerve to say its the worst reese draft when none of these players played a down yet. you are one stubborn, ****y dude Dude, your useless, and a liar.. I have no time for a liar.. I never said David Wilson sucked at any point in time.. I said, it seemed as though he "WORE" down as the yr went on, and his 2last games kinda showed that, as he barley avg'd over 3yrds per carry against CLem and Mich...</p>


And next, i'll say whatever i want.. I do it respectfully and 99pct of the time, i write "IN MY OPINION".. Oh well, if i didn't like the RANDLE pick, nor like em as a prospect.. So what? I'll post it over and over and over again if i darn well please... In my opinion, it was a player who isn't that good, and i think is gonna be a bust(hopefully i'm wrong).. I don't need to see him Play for us before i say that.. Its the freaking DRAFT THREAD! Thats what we do on the draft thread.. We discuss our opinions and how we feel about the picks, weather good or bad..</p>


I wasen't the one who right away said "AWFUL PICK", or "WILSON IS A USELESS BACK".. That was Redeye and Lawl, both Posters who i really respect, and if thats there opinion, or if they just felt like that initally and changed there minds, whatever! I could care less, becasue its there right to post how they feel.. Its my right, to respond to there posts respectufully if i so feel that way..</p>


And finally, i was never flipping out about anything at any time.. What are u talking about??? Grow up!!! You got issues.. Stop lieing and right facts down, and don't tell me what I was doing, because u have no clue...</p>

Im curious, I understand that you dont like Randle but the only reason you say is casue he looks like Lafell. I dont totally disagree and Lafell is a player that is continuing to get better. Last year was the first year he had a quarterback and he did decent.

Furthermore, Randle is much faster (Randle: 4.37 40 at his parody, Lafell: 4.54 at his pro day) and slightly taller then Lafell, he also has bigger hands and coming out he definitely catches the ball better and is widely regarded as a much better prospect. Im not bashing what you're saying but it would be nice to know why you think they way you do.

Also explain how Curnier (sp) and Sanu are better pro prospects then Randle, I dont know much about Curnier but Sanu is most definitely not a better prospect. I think most people would agree with that statement, do you really expect Sanu to win on 1 vs 1 isolation routes consistently seperate in the NFL? he simply doesn't have the down field speed to constantly beat this type of coverage, he couldn't even do that consistently in college.

If anything, Sanu and Lafell are much more comparable... IMO of course.

nycsportzfan
05-02-2012, 10:48 PM
First of all, u always post what u want, without all the facts.. In response to me calling that dude a bafoon, was because of the way he was responding to me, in many diffrent posts, like a child all most.. And the way he had spoke to many others as well.. I'm not gonna go get all the posts, but trust me he had it coming.. I never spoke to any body like that other then that immature kid... He deserved it.. He can't debate without being ridiculously immature if u don't agree.. I never and mean, NEVER, call any one anything unless there the instigator first.. So, that settles that I looove how you say im going crazy because people have a different opinion than mine. No thats YOU You were going nuts when people had a problem with you bashing the giants picks. You were saying dumb things like "David wilson sucked at the last 2 games of the year" when infact this guy had 6 STRAIGHT 100-yard games in the regular season. love how you pull out one quote like that describes and eliminates all of the other negative things u were saying u were filliping out when people had a problem with you being the GM and saying some picks werent good because they didnt pick what YOU wanted. the adrien robinson pick was supposedly a bad pick because YOU think we could have got him in the 7th round. YOU ARE NOT THE GM, DONT YOU GET IT? Give ur opinions about the palyers, whatevs. But dont for a second tell everyone that are picks are bad or that it isnt good because you personally didnt like that player or that some freakin mock draft had adrien robinson going in the 7th round so that means we should not have drafted him in the 4th round You have the nerve to say its the worst reese draft when none of these players played a down yet. you are one stubborn, ****y dude Dude, your useless, and a liar.. I have no time for a liar.. I never said David Wilson sucked at any point in time.. I said, it seemed as though he "WORE" down as the yr went on, and his 2last games kinda showed that, as he barley avg'd over 3yrds per carry against CLem and Mich...</P>


And next, i'll say whatever i want.. I do it respectfully and 99pct of the time, i write "IN MY OPINION".. Oh well, if i didn't like the RANDLE pick, nor like em as a prospect.. So what? I'll post it over and over and over again if i darn well please... In my opinion, it was a player who isn't that good, and i think is gonna be a bust(hopefully i'm wrong).. I don't need to see him Play for us before i say that.. Its the freaking DRAFT THREAD! Thats what we do on the draft thread.. We discuss our opinions and how we feel about the picks, weather good or bad..</P>


I wasen't the one who right away said "AWFUL PICK", or "WILSON IS A USELESS BACK".. That was Redeye and Lawl, both Posters who i really respect, and if thats there opinion, or if they just felt like that initally and changed there minds, whatever! I could care less, becasue its there right to post how they feel.. Its my right, to respond to there posts respectufully if i so feel that way..</P>


And finally, i was never flipping out about anything at any time.. What are u talking about??? Grow up!!! You got issues.. Stop lieing and right facts down, and don't tell me what I was doing, because u have no clue...</P>




Im curious, I understand that you dont like Randle but the only reason you say is casue he looks like Lafell. I dont totally disagree and Lafell is a player that is continuing to get better. Last year was the first year he had a quarterback and he did decent.

Furthermore, Randle is much faster (Randle: 4.37 40 at his parody, Lafell: 4.54 at his pro day) and slightly taller then Lafell, he also has bigger hands and coming out he definitely catches the ball better and is widely regarded as a much better prospect. Im not bashing what you're saying but it would be nice to know why you think they way you do.

Also explain how Curnier (sp) and Sanu are better pro prospects then Randle, I dont know much about Curnier but Sanu is most definitely not a better prospect. I think most people would agree with that statement, do you really expect Sanu to win on 1 vs 1 isolation routes consistently seperate in the NFL? he simply doesn't have the down field speed to constantly beat this type of coverage, he couldn't even do that consistently in college.

If anything, Sanu and Lafell are much more comparable... IMO of course.

Nah, Sanu and Lafell are diffrent types of WR.. U don't see Lafell going over the middle as much as u do Sanu.. Sanu in my opinion of course is gonna be a beast over the middle, and it dosen't matter who is QB is, he makes plays.. Rutgers QB play was horrendus, and he still produced like a number 1 WR should... I like Sanu's toughness, and he just reminds me of a guy who knows how to play "football"..
Hey, i could be dead wrong, but thats how i feel, and what i think.. I also am not a big "proday" guy.. Randle just ran a 4.55 at the combine, and dosen't seem to have the seperation skills to be much more tehn a possesion WR in the NFL.. Again, i could be wrong, but thats what i think, and is my opinon.. Its all a guess, but thats what i think... I also read that he Ran a 4.42-4.43 at his proday, not a 4.37...</P>


Either way, i just don't see the same toughness or ability to go over the middle, nor strength that i see with Sanu.. Sanu has a good vertical as well, going 36inches compared to Randles 31 at the combine.. Sanu did better in every category outside of 40time.. But truly, its just about what i see on the field, and i feel Sanu is gonna be a darn good 2nd WR for a team, and safety valve, and i don't know if i'm sold on Randle... Again, who knows though?</P>

BlueSanta
05-03-2012, 02:44 AM
Its ridiculous!!!



Looking back at this thread, I think it has degraded to such a point
that we have both gone in a direction we never intended, or actually
want.



My honest intention when originally responding to you was to try to give
you a different perspective. I wasn't trying to single you out, and
wasn't thinking of you at all with my original "armchair GM falling in
love with picks" post.



However, I think we can both agree this debate has gotten a little out
of hand, on both our parts. In the past years, we have had numberous
debates that have been quite fun, sometimes heated and ,at some point,
both of us have been right, and both have been wrong(mostly you![:)]).



Here is the bad part:

I do not back down from some of the stuff I said above, I do think you have been
a little too down on our draft this year. To be frank, when reading the
draft thread as it was happening, I kept thinking you were being a
downer on a day that should mean excitement. However, the written word
is a terrible way to communicate thoughts because tone is the hardest
thing to convey. I know there are places in this thread that I could
have been more patient in attempting to communicate my point. I think it
is likely you feel the same.



Here is the good part:

I know you do your homework, I have never doubted that. 1 of the
reasons I enjoy when we debate or discuss is because I know you actually
know the guy I am talking about, which is not the case with many of the
people on these forums. When I said I dont care for Markelle Martin, I
know you know exactly who he is and have seen him actually play. I know
you aren't tabbing out as you read my post to look him up on youtube
and evaluate him on a video likely put out there by his agent or a
member of his high school entourage. I also know you generally don't
only like guys because they go to 1 school or are from 1 division,
another fault you commonly see in these forums. I also consider you a
good source on some of the smaller school prospects that are not in my
region.



I said this last week, but I will say it in more detail this week for
all to read in an attempt to show I am not poisonous on you.

Last November, you and I got in a discussion about RBs. We were
talking about Monte Ball, who was just starting his late season tear.
The discussion moved onto other draftable RBs and you said Doug Martin
would have a meteoric rise prior to the draft. If I remember correctly,
you said a "Ryan Mathews" like rise. I know it was November because I
had just spoken to my FSU guy and I spoke to him right after the BC
game. I also remember because I spoke of Wilson, who was leading the
nation in rushing at that time. I have said it before, and will say it
again, that was a awesome call on your part.



Moving on,


The odd thing is that this year you and I agreed on more prospects than
we have in any other year I can remember. The problem is, the Giants
went ahead and selected 2 that we didn't agree on. I liked 'em and you didn't so much. Well, I liked Randle in the 2nd, not the 1st.

So lets end this now, if you like. Its gotten out of hand and is pointless to continue. Here is what we know: We both like the Giants, we both like college football, and we are both always right(by "both" I mean me and me.).

nycsportzfan
05-03-2012, 03:39 AM
Its ridiculous!!!

Looking back at this thread, I think it has degraded to such a point that we have both gone in a direction we never intended, or actually want.

My honest intention when originally responding to you was to try to give you a different perspective. I wasn't trying to single you out, and wasn't thinking of you at all with my original "armchair GM falling in love with picks" post.

However, I think we can both agree this debate has gotten a little out of hand, on both our parts. In the past years, we have had numberous debates that have been quite fun, sometimes heated and ,at some point, both of us have been right, and both have been wrong(mostly you![:)]).

Here is the bad part:
I do not back down from some of the stuff I said above, I do think you have been a little too down on our draft this year. To be frank, when reading the draft thread as it was happening, I kept thinking you were being a downer on a day that should mean excitement. However, the written word is a terrible way to communicate thoughts because tone is the hardest thing to convey. I know there are places in this thread that I could have been more patient in attempting to communicate my point. I think it is likely you feel the same.

Here is the good part:
I know you do your homework, I have never doubted that. 1 of the reasons I enjoy when we debate or discuss is because I know you actually know the guy I am talking about, which is not the case with many of the people on these forums. When I said I dont care for Markelle Martin, I know you know exactly who he is and have seen him actually play. I know you aren't tabbing out as you read my post to look him up on youtube and evaluate him on a video likely put out there by his agent or a member of his high school entourage. I also know you generally don't only like guys because they go to 1 school or are from 1 division, another fault you commonly see in these forums. I also consider you a good source on some of the smaller school prospects that are not in my region.

I said this last week, but I will say it in more detail this week for all to read in an attempt to show I am not poisonous on you.
Last November, you and I got in a discussion about RBs. We were talking about Monte Ball, who was just starting his late season tear. The discussion moved onto other draftable RBs and you said Doug Martin would have a meteoric rise prior to the draft. If I remember correctly, you said a "Ryan Mathews" like rise. I know it was November because I had just spoken to my FSU guy and I spoke to him right after the BC game. I also remember because I spoke of Wilson, who was leading the nation in rushing at that time. I have said it before, and will say it again, that was a awesome call on your part.

Moving on,

The odd thing is that this year you and I agreed on more prospects than we have in any other year I can remember. The problem is, the Giants went ahead and selected 2 that we didn't agree on. I liked 'em and you didn't so much. Well, I liked Randle in the 2nd, not the 1st.

So lets end this now, if you like. Its gotten out of hand and is pointless to continue. Here is what we know: We both like the Giants, we both like college football, and we are both always right(by "both" I mean me and me.).






Dude, you know your one of my closest pals on this site, so i'm all for moving on.. </P>


The one thing i really want to hammer in to everyone is i wasen't trying to bash anything, and i felt did my best in showing my dissapointment while also remaining somewhat upbeat, as far as saying, "i'm still intrigued" and stuff like that, but i just intended on being honest while discussing how i truly feel about every pick... I have zero problem saying "i'm wrong" about any player, like a Reuben Randle, if he ends up being really good, but i cant lie, and i feel we've discussed players just like that in the draft thread for ever now, never holding back on how we feel or what we think, and i don't think that should change just because hes drafted on our team, except to say of course "I Hope i'm wrong"..lol</P>


Lets not forget about the Whitney Mercilus call as well, by the way.. hehehe!!!lol </P>


And i'll end with, i really liked some of our picks, and feel people don't want to notice that for some reason. I'm all in on the upside OT's, and i really like the Hosley pick, even more as the days pass, and as i said about Wilson, i'm really intrigued to see him on the feild, because i realize hes got obvious skill, and i hope he can shoulder a full load and learns when a plays dead to just move forward as much as possible and go down, and obviously correct the fumbling problems, because if he can do that, hes gonna be pretty freaking good... Those are all things that are certainly possible.. Also, i hope he proves me wrong about the value thing..I'm just gonna have to wait and see with the Randle, Robinson, and Kuhn picks, because i'm just not a believer yet, but trust me, i'm certainly hoping that i'm wrong..</P>


I'll consider this discussion to finally be over, and move forward with more fun discussions about this past and the future drafts... I also agree, that we both kinda let this thread get away, and for my part, i apoligize...</P>