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View Full Version : V CRUZ & The RUN/SHOOT



Redeyejedi
05-03-2012, 08:36 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

CGYgiant
05-03-2012, 08:45 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

Great article, unfortunately most Giants fans think that Gilbride is a bad OC, id challange anyone to name 5 betters OCs in this league.

giantsfan420
05-03-2012, 09:08 PM
i think what it was with KG, is people disliked the system he runs more than him personally. I know part of my beef for a long time was I thought his system could be too complex for the wr's and would limit the success we had.

boy was i wrong. turns out we just needed the right blend of wr's...

fwiw tho, I remember reading Cosell write about the Run/Shoot and how before KG, no true Run/Shoot offense had ever won a SB, so there was a little bit of precedence in not being a fan of the system...but when u got the right qb and right wr to pull it off, it looks like a thing of pure genius/beauty

RoanokeFan
05-03-2012, 09:18 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

Great article, unfortunately most Giants fans think that Gilbride is a bad OC, id challange anyone to name 5 betters OCs in this league.


I don't think "most Giants fans think that Gilbride is a bad OC." A lot of posters here sure do, even in the face of no losing season since TC has been HC. But we here are just a small segment of the GIANTS' fan base.

Gilbride and Fewell catch flack on a play by play bases AFTER we know the results.

CGYgiant
05-03-2012, 09:24 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

Great article, unfortunately most Giants fans think that Gilbride is a bad OC, id challange anyone to name 5 betters OCs in this league.


I don't think "most Giants fans think that Gilbride is a bad OC." A lot of posters here sure do, even in the face of no losing season since TC has been HC. But we here are just a small segment of the GIANTS' fan base.

Gilbride and Fewell catch flack on a play by play bases AFTER we know the results.


Well, now most Giants fan technically can't say he is a bad OC in this league but whether it was on giants.com or on twitter, the number one issue people have is Gilbride which never made any sense, our offense was excellent last year.

I also thought it was interesting when Eli took the stage when we one the Superbowl the first person he thanked was Kevin Gilbride. I had almost weekly arguments with people (unlike yourself RK) who all they kept saying was Gilbride is a bad OC. It was kind of funny actually.

Back on topic though, I noticed that Eli threw downfield more then any other QB last year and defenses have too respect that. I hope our Oline gives Eli more time to throw down field.

Drez
05-03-2012, 10:58 PM
Nice article.

Am I the only one that's going through and reading the other linked articles about how to implement the R&S concepts in modern formations, though?

giantsfan420
05-03-2012, 11:00 PM
Nice article.

Am I the only one that's going through and reading the other linked articles about how to implement the R&S concepts in modern formations, though?


i find it interesting too. i forget but i believe RF posted an awesome article near the SB about the different run/shoot variants that KG implores.

In some ways, its a run shoot offense, but in other ways, its an evolution of it that KG has paired with a balanced attack.

having the right wr's and qb has been pivotal to KG adapting and evolving the run/shoot offense

YATittle1962
05-03-2012, 11:31 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

I posted this in Jan.

great article

giantsfan420
05-03-2012, 11:38 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

I posted this in Jan.

great article

ah that was u. i knew some one had posted about this around the SB. thought it was RF...

gmen0820
05-03-2012, 11:48 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

I posted this in Jan.

great article

ah that was u. i knew some one had posted about this around the SB. thought it was RF...No it was RF, because I know what article you're talking about. Two different articles that RF and YA posted.

Both great articles. Really changed most people's perspective on a highly criticized offense [coordinator].

giantsfan420
05-03-2012, 11:55 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

I posted this in Jan.

great article

ah that was u. i knew some one had posted about this around the SB. thought it was RF...No it was RF, because I know what article you're talking about. Two different articles that RF and YA posted.

Both great articles. Really changed most people's perspective on a highly criticized offense [coordinator].

oh yeah i remember vaguely...but yeah i gotta admit, those articles changed my opinion of the system...

that was my issue with KG originally, not necessarily him, but the system he ran...when he has the right wr's and qb tho, it is a thing of beauty

burier
05-04-2012, 10:51 AM
I find gilbride's playcalling maddening at times...especially in 2010 but overall its getting harder and harder to compain about the guy. The offense is always highly ranked. The team is always competitve and Eli has a lot of control so some of the playcalling madness might be on Eli.

I hate to say it but Gilbride is ok by me.

Kruunch
05-04-2012, 03:06 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

I posted this in Jan.

great article

ah that was u. i knew some one had posted about this around the SB. thought it was RF...No it was RF, because I know what article you're talking about. Two different articles that RF and YA posted.

Both great articles. Really changed most people's perspective on a highly criticized offense [coordinator].

It's about time KG got some credit (although the article seems to slant it more towards Cruz).

KG does out smart himself some times, but even Bellichick is guilty of that.

I'll never be happy with throwing Go routes on 3rd and short, but you just can't complain about the results overall.

[b]

B&RWarrior
05-04-2012, 03:32 PM
The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense I think that is a problem that will always be there.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

CGYgiant
05-04-2012, 03:53 PM
The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense <font size="5">I think that is a problem that will always be there</font>.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

These same 'problems' present tremendous challenges to opposing defenses. Look how Cruz dominated in the NFC championship game and this season in general, his route is dependent on what he sees from the defender, why run a route when its going to be covered? this offense is unique as it allows our players to make adjustments on the fly

You can't look at the negatives without looking at the positives, this offense was the reason we won the Superbowl this year.

Redeyejedi
05-04-2012, 04:14 PM
The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense <font size="5">I think that is a problem that will always be there</font>.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

These same 'problems' present tremendous challenges to opposing defenses. Look how Cruz dominated in the NFC championship game and this season in general, his route is dependent on what he sees from the defender, why run a route when its going to be covered? this offense is unique as it allows our players to make adjustments on the fly

You can't look at the negatives without looking at the positives, this offense was the reason we won the Superbowl this year. *
Receivers that can find holes in zone coverage like the 1 they just drafted can be superstars in this offense.

B&RWarrior
05-04-2012, 04:26 PM
The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense <font size="5">I think that is a problem that will always be there</font>.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

These same 'problems' present tremendous challenges to opposing defenses. Look how Cruz dominated in the NFC championship game and this season in general, his route is dependent on what he sees from the defender, why run a route when its going to be covered? this offense is unique as it allows our players to make adjustments on the fly

You can't look at the negatives without looking at the positives, this offense was the reason we won the Superbowl this year. *


I agree 100%. I'm saying that there will always bea few errant throws now and then. This isn't a problem to be solved by working harder or getting to know the receiver more. It might be lessened but not ever totally eliminated.

This offense stalls out a lot too. In the SB, against the Redskins, and Seattle. Part of the reason Eli had so many comeback victories is because of the inability to move the ball earlier in the game.

I grade Gilbride's offense out as a B overall. He's changed the culture of our team. We are now officially a big play passing offense. It's what TC always wanted. If our run blocking returns the offense we'll be a lot more consistent and dangerous.

Kruunch
05-04-2012, 05:24 PM
The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense I think that is a problem that will always be there.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

Top 10 offense 4 years running. I'd say that was pretty consistant.

Redeyejedi
05-04-2012, 05:25 PM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

I posted this in Jan.

great articleFigured it had been posted when I saw the date.To bad some of the good stuff gets buried and missed

B&RWarrior
05-04-2012, 08:39 PM
The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense I think that is a problem that will always be there.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

Top 10 offense 4 years running. I'd say that was pretty consistant.

The inconsistency I was referring to was from game to game.

Diamondring
07-04-2012, 09:15 AM
KG, thank you and I'm sorry.[:D]

RoanokeFan
07-04-2012, 09:23 AM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants

Great article, unfortunately most Giants fans think that Gilbride is a bad OC, id challange anyone to name 5 betters OCs in this league.


I don't think that's true of "most Giants fans." It is certainly true of a number of vocal posters here, especially when a play isn't executed properly, but, as Parcells often is quoted, you are what your numbers say you are. He's not had a losing season here as OC.

RoanokeFan
07-04-2012, 09:28 AM
<font color="#0000FF">The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. </font>I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense I think that is a problem that will always be there.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

You have just identified the problem as poor execution, which I agree with. If you think back to Cruz working his way into the rotation after Steve Smith was injured. Gilbride publicly flamed his butt for not making the right cut at the right place. Coaches are responsible for drawing up plays and players are responsible for executing them as they've been drawn up. Nicks and Cruz are who they are because they are smart enough to get it.

Making plays complex is also supposed to confuse the defense.

RagTime Blue
07-04-2012, 11:46 AM
Great article.

I knew we were still using some kind of Run 'n Shoot, but I didn't realize how it's evolved since the Houston Oilers' days. Also, I didn't realize how its roots are more instinctual than intellectual (although it helps if the players are both).

THE_New_York_Giants
07-04-2012, 01:36 PM
The flaw with the Gilbride offense is that it is inconsistent. This article and a few other articles posted point out exactly why the offense is so inconsistent. Look at how many options the WR's have to change their route. I think it has a lot to do with why we see Eli on a different page with the WRs some times. In this offense <font size="5">I think that is a problem that will always be there</font>.

Gilbride says the offense he ran in Houston gave WRs 3 times the responsibility as his current offense with the Giants. I have to say after reading how his offense work I've gained a lot more respect for Eli's abilities as well as the WRs.

I think a 55% completion percentage in the Gilbride offense equates to a 60% completion percentage in a traditional passing game w/o the read and react responsibilities.

Warren Moon was a maestro in Houston. I didn't realize how difficult his job was.

These same 'problems' present tremendous challenges to opposing defenses. Look how Cruz dominated in the NFC championship game and this season in general, his route is dependent on what he sees from the defender, why run a route when its going to be covered? this offense is unique as it allows our players to make adjustments on the fly

You can't look at the negatives without looking at the positives, this offense was the reason we won the Superbowl this year.
Receivers that can find holes in zone coverage like the 1 they just drafted can be superstars in this offense.

Steve Smith and Toomer come to mind

JesseJames
07-04-2012, 05:31 PM
I think the rap thats been hung on Gilbride is that his offense is too predictable, part of that may be true but I think Gilbrides offense is predicated on EVERYONE doing his job correctly and making his block, running precise routes or the play fails miserably and KGB looks like a jerk for calling the play...

gumby742
07-05-2012, 09:57 AM
Not sure if this has been posted but its pretty interesting http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7481235/chris-brown-victor-cruz-new-york-giants I posted this in Jan. great article ah that was u. i knew some one had posted about this around the SB. thought it was RF...No it was RF, because I know what article you're talking about. Two different articles that RF and YA posted. Both great articles. Really changed most people's perspective on a highly criticized offense [coordinator]. It's about time KG got some credit (although the article seems to slant it more towards Cruz). KG does out smart himself some times, but even Bellichick is guilty of that. I'll never be happy with throwing Go routes on 3rd and short, but you just can't complain about the results overall. [b]</P>


</P>


This. hard to ar gue with 2 SBs.</P>

MattMeyerBud
07-05-2012, 01:16 PM
i think what it was with KG, is people disliked the system he runs more than him personally. I know part of my beef for a long time was I thought his system could be too complex for the wr's and would limit the success we had. boy was i wrong. turns out we just needed the right blend of wr's... fwiw tho, I remember reading Cosell write about the Run/Shoot and how before KG, no true Run/Shoot offense had ever won a SB, so there was a little bit of precedence in not being a fan of the system...but when u got the right qb and right wr to pull it off, it looks like a thing of pure genius/beauty</P>


</P>


i think it was his red zone play calling to be honest.</P>


</P>

burier
07-05-2012, 01:21 PM
If anyone has a problem with Gilbride isn't his playcalling.

He can come out and call a total stinker some weeks.

Joe Morrison
07-05-2012, 01:32 PM
i think what it was with KG, is people disliked the system he runs more than him personally. I know part of my beef for a long time was I thought his system could be too complex for the wr's and would limit the success we had. boy was i wrong. turns out we just needed the right blend of wr's... fwiw tho, I remember reading Cosell write about the Run/Shoot and how before KG, no true Run/Shoot offense had ever won a SB, so there was a little bit of precedence in not being a fan of the system...but when u got the right qb and right wr to pull it off, it looks like a thing of pure genius/beauty</P>


</P>


i think it was his red zone play calling to be honest.</P>


</P>


</P>


That was always an issue with the run and shoot, don't see Gilbrides system a run and shoot, he goes deep downfield all the time, run and shoot was much more quick routes.</P>

Toadofsteel
07-05-2012, 05:43 PM
"I can't cover no option route all day. I mean, i go inside, the man [Cruz] goin outside" --Carlos Rogers, San Francisco CB