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idiotekniQues
05-06-2012, 06:54 PM
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/328599-why-bengals-dealt-rivers-to-giants?sct=nfl_bf1_a5&eref=fromSI&eref=fromSI

"here was a story behind the story on the Keith Rivers trade to the Giants. The former first round pick had surgery on his wrist near the end of the lockout last summer. The Bengals thought he could have had it earlier in the offseason, and did not approve. The team subsequently put him on the non football injury list. Rivers wanted to be put on the physically unable to perform list, which would have enabled him to collect his salary. He filed a grievance against the team. There were hard feelings, and both sides thought a fresh start was in order."

This makes the trade sound even better from our point of view.

fourth&forever
05-06-2012, 07:09 PM
Can't wait for camp. Competition should be steep. It'll be interesting to see who starts the season in the middle.

G-Man67
05-07-2012, 05:55 PM
oh that is good info</P>


at least we know the Bengalsdidn't let him go purely on either injury or performance</P>

bearbryant
05-07-2012, 07:55 PM
Well, it sounds more plausible now. All we need to do is wait and see if he plays like a #1 or a # nothing!

Firenugget
05-08-2012, 09:12 AM
Just for giggles...What makes this credible? The word "rumors" is in the site name.

buddy33
05-08-2012, 09:21 AM
Eh, I'm pulling for him to be a great pick up, but as of now he is a guy who has never lived up to expectations in the NFL.

Maybe a new team can motivate him? I don't know, but he only cost the Giants a 5th round pick.

Maybe he doesn't make the team. Maybe he stats.

Warchild
05-08-2012, 09:54 AM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible?

Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.

GMENAGAIN
05-08-2012, 10:31 AM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>

Drez
05-08-2012, 12:30 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>
IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?

Kruunch
05-08-2012, 12:41 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>
IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


^ This.

chasjay
05-08-2012, 01:00 PM
I believe that our management knew all the background between Rivers and the Bengals before they made the deal. I have a good feeling about this acquisition - I'm aware that my "good feeling" means nothing, but I have it anyway. In essence, he's our 5th pick in this year's draft at a cost of $1.25 million for 1 year (if my info is correct). What would an average 5th rounder get - maybe $300K-$500K? I'm good with the deal and hopeful that it becomes a bargain.

BlueSanta
05-08-2012, 01:41 PM
Its funny, when you post something in these forums refering to the "Rivers Trade" I do not readily think of Kieth Rivers.

I guess we now have to distinguish between Rivers trades.

Drez
05-08-2012, 01:43 PM
I believe that our management knew all the background between Rivers and the Bengals before they made the deal. I have a good feeling about this acquisition - I'm aware that my "good feeling" means nothing, but I have it anyway. In essence, he's our 5th pick in this year's draft at a cost of $1.25 million for 1 year (if my info is correct). What would an average 5th rounder get - maybe $300K-$500K? I'm good with the deal and hopeful that it becomes a bargain.

Actually, Rivers is only guaranteed $700k this season ($650k base+ $50k workout bonus). The rest of the money is incentives.

BlueSanta
05-08-2012, 01:46 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>
IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.

gmen46
05-08-2012, 03:47 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>
IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee.* Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.


Accountable for what?

As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time.

Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself.

In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season.

By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "Osi being spiteful (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")".

And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4.

That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.

BlueSanta
05-08-2012, 03:58 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>
IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.


Accountable for what?

How often it happens is no indication of if being ok or not.

nygsb42champs
05-08-2012, 04:02 PM
I am anxious to see how Rivers performs.

gmen46
05-08-2012, 07:17 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>
IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee.* Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.


Accountable for what?

How often it happens is no indication of if being ok or not.




Actually, the concept of when an athlete decides to have a medically necessary procedure can be designated as "ok or not ok" by any fan or fans is ****ing ridiculous.

The fact that these decisions for surgery--and when those decisions are made--is a fact of life for the professional athlete in all sports IS an indication of it being ok.

He/she owes the fan NOTHING in terms of "accountability" regarding when the decision to have a surgery is made.

No team requires any athlete to have surgery at a specific time of year if their medical staff doesn't say it's the only option for the athlete. Put another way, how often has it been documented that a specific team has released a player strictly because the player had surgery at an "inconvenient" time of the year?

There's nothing illegal, immoral, or in violation of any known team or league rule at issue with this.

So, where does this absurd notion of Osi should have been "held accountable" for electing to have a surgical procedure that was deemed the medically best option for him in the long run?

Again. What does he need to be accountable for, and to whom? That he didn't check with Blue Santa first?

Bluedawg
05-08-2012, 07:27 PM
Im glad there was a fall out between Rivers and Bengals cause now hes a Giant and I think he'll do better here. But why does everything always gotta find its way back to Osi?

BlueSanta
05-08-2012, 07:55 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>
IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.


Accountable for what?

How often it happens is no indication of if being ok or not.




Actually, the concept of when an athlete decides to have a medically necessary procedure can be designated as "ok or not ok" by any fan or fans is ****ing ridiculous.What does he need to be accountable for, and to whom? That he didn't check with Blue Santa first?

Did I say acountable to me? Do you always base your responses off words you put in other people's mouths? If anything I think the fans have held him somewhat accountable. He certainly is a good football player but a lot of posters here have expressed annoyance with his yearly offseason complaints.

How about accountable to his teammates?. How about accountable to his contract? How about that? Or would you like to put more words in my mouth.

In case you didnt notice, we almost didnt make the playoffs last year. His attendence might have helped those 1st few weeks.

NorwoodBlue
05-08-2012, 08:04 PM
I think there's an expectation in all of pro sports that if you have a nagging injury over the course of a season, and surgery is the best way to eliminate that injury, that the player is expected to have that surgery immediately at the end of the season to lengthen recovery time. Rivers and Osi both seemed to have violated that principle. The strike may have been a factor in their minds; but the season started on-time, and those guys should have been as physically ready to play as they possibly could have been. I think both organizations have reason to be upset with these guys.

Hopefully, Rivers will thrive in a new environment, and Osi, hopefully he'll just get over himself and play football, we're all tired of his whining.

GMENAGAIN
05-08-2012, 08:50 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<FONT size=5>Osi being spiteful</FONT> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</P>


</P>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</P>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</P>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</P>

GMENAGAIN
05-08-2012, 08:54 PM
I think there's an expectation in all of pro sports that if you have a nagging injury over the course of a season, and surgery is the best way to eliminate that injury, that the player is expected to have that surgery immediately at the end of the season to lengthen recovery time. Rivers and Osi both seemed to have violated that principle. The strike may have been a factor in their minds; but the season started on-time, and those guys should have been as physically ready to play as they possibly could have been. I think both organizations have reason to be upset with these guys.

Hopefully, Rivers will thrive in a new environment, and Osi, hopefully he'll just get over himself and play football, we're all tired of his whining.
</P>


So the players should havepaid for their own surgeries during the lockout to make sure that they were ready to play for the very people who locked them out???</P>


And what would have happened if the non-team doctor screwed up the non-team approved surgery?</P>


C'mon man, use your noodle . . . . . . </P>

Ahmad44rushHARD
05-08-2012, 09:50 PM
I am anxious to see how Rivers performs.

I'm excited!

Martyr
05-08-2012, 09:58 PM
I am anxious to see how Rivers performs. I'm excited!</P>


Couldnt say it any better</P>

Drez
05-08-2012, 10:05 PM
I think there's an expectation in all of pro sports that if you have a nagging injury over the course of a season, and surgery is the best way to eliminate that injury, that the player is expected to have that surgery immediately at the end of the season to lengthen recovery time. Rivers and Osi both seemed to have violated that principle. The strike may have been a factor in their minds; but the season started on-time, and those guys should have been as physically ready to play as they possibly could have been. I think both organizations have reason to be upset with these guys.

Hopefully, Rivers will thrive in a new environment, and Osi, hopefully he'll just get over himself and play football, we're all tired of his whining.

How do you know that that's why they waited? How do you know that they weren't told to their doctors to wait to see how they healed before having surgery?

Drez
05-08-2012, 10:06 PM
I think there's an expectation in all of pro sports that if you have a nagging injury over the course of a season, and surgery is the best way to eliminate that injury, that the player is expected to have that surgery immediately at the end of the season to lengthen recovery time. Rivers and Osi both seemed to have violated that principle. The strike may have been a factor in their minds; but the season started on-time, and those guys should have been as physically ready to play as they possibly could have been. I think both organizations have reason to be upset with these guys.

Hopefully, Rivers will thrive in a new environment, and Osi, hopefully he'll just get over himself and play football, we're all tired of his whining.
</p>


So the players should havepaid for their own surgeries during the lockout to make sure that they were ready to play for the very people who locked them out???</p>


And what would have happened if the non-team doctor screwed up the non-team approved surgery?</p>


C'mon man, use your noodle . . . . . . </p>
Actually, GMEN, I think if it was a football related injury the players were covered. I'm not too sure what kind of access they would have had to team rehab facilities, though.

Drez
05-08-2012, 10:16 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<font size="5">Osi being spiteful</font> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</p>


</p>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</p>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</p>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</p>
If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.

Hypno66
05-08-2012, 10:28 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible?

Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.

THIS

JMFP2
05-08-2012, 11:23 PM
Eh, I'm pulling for him to be a great pick up, but as of now he is a guy who has never lived up to expectations in the NFL. Maybe a new team can motivate him? I don't know, but he only cost the Giants a 5th round pick. Maybe he doesn't make the team. Maybe he stats.</P>


I pretty much feel the same way.</P>

GMENAGAIN
05-09-2012, 07:46 AM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<FONT size=5>Osi being spiteful</FONT> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</P>


</P>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</P>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</P>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</P>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</P>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp . . . . it was well-reported at the time. </P>

giantyankee1976
05-09-2012, 07:59 AM
Eh, I'm pulling for him to be a great pick up, but as of now he is a guy who has never lived up to expectations in the NFL.

Maybe a new team can motivate him? I don't know, but he only cost the Giants a 5th round pick.

Maybe he doesn't make the team. Maybe he stats.

maybe he'll game for us like Kawika did.

that's my hope anyway.

gmen46
05-10-2012, 06:23 AM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee.* Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<FONT size=5>Osi being spiteful</FONT> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</P>


*</P>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</P>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value).* I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</P>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</P>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</P>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp *. . . . it was well-reported at the time.* </P>

A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical. The team knew there was a knee issue the day after he reported to camp.

It apparently was something that could be postponed but would eventually need surgery.

That's the reporting I read at any rate.

GMENAGAIN
05-10-2012, 07:15 AM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<FONT size=5>Osi being spiteful</FONT> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</P>


</P>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</P>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</P>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</P>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</P>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp . . . . it was well-reported at the time. </P>


A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical. The team knew there was a knee issue the day after he reported to camp. It apparently was something that could be postponed but would eventually need surgery. That's the reporting I read at any rate.</P>


He was trying to get a new deal before he came into camp . . . . and hence before the Giants would have found out about his injury. </P>


Moreover, Osi's knee injury was not discovered during his first day of camp physical. The first the team knew about his injury was when Osi told them that he couldn't practice because of it.</P>


Please provide a link to the reporting that you read. All of the reporting that I read was that the Giants were completely surprised when Osi said that he was unable to practice because of a knee injury. Even Tuck suggested that Osi sitting out of practice because of his knee injury was part of his negotiating strategy.</P>

gmen46
05-10-2012, 05:32 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee.* Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<FONT size=5>Osi being spiteful</FONT> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</P>


*</P>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</P>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value).* I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</P>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</P>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</P>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp *. . . . it was well-reported at the time.* </P>


A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical. The team knew there was a knee issue the day after he reported to camp. It apparently was something that could be postponed but would eventually need surgery. That's the reporting I read at any rate.</P>


He was trying to get a new deal before he came into camp . . . . and hence before the Giants would have found out about his injury.* </P>


Moreover, Osi's knee injury was not discovered during his first day of camp physical.* The first the team knew about his injury was when Osi told them that he couldn't practice because of it.</P>


Please provide a link to the reporting that you read.* All of the reporting that I read was that the Giants were completely surprised when Osi said that he was unable to practice because of a knee injury.* Even Tuck suggested that Osi sitting out of practice because of his knee injury was part of his negotiating strategy.</P>


Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora has knee surgery, team says

Sorry, am having difficulty applying the link.

It's a Vacchiano Aug 19 article where he recaps some of the saga surrounding Osi's decision.

Alludes to Tuck's remark about strategy, which is speculation on Tuck's part--not any fact.

It also alludes to Giants' knowledge of his knee issue 6-8 weeks before camp, but they downgraded it to "sore knee" by camp, in part because surgery was not REQUIRED for him to play--in team's med staff opinion--but alternative would be to keep him out of practices all season long and hope it didn't get worse.

Three days into camp and Osi had swelling knee at end of each day.

I don't argue at all that Osi likely originally chose to put off the eventually required surgery until he realized he was going nowhere else in 2011, and then chose to have it.

But my point has always been that once Osi came to the realization he would not receive a new contract in 2011--either from Giants or from another team--he decided to shelve his contract dissatisfaction and prepare for a full tilt 2011 season.

Getting the surgery that would be necessary at SOME point in his life out of the way weeks before the season began was, in his mind, the best thing for him and the team (ie, he would miss, at most, 2-3 games at beginning of the season and he would be able to practice throughout the season-- in theory at least).

That's quite different from the profile often painted on this board of Osi electing to have surgery as a way of "getting even" with Giants for not giving him a new rich contract or trading him. Certainly no "deception" on his part about his knee was involved, as suggested, since the Giants admit they were aware of the issue 2 months prior to camp.

The fact that he was injured late in the season causing him to miss 4 more games was, of course, not anticipated by anyone but did add to the frustration surrounding Osi. But to insist, as many on this board had during December, that the latter injury was "strategic" and "faked" was and is absurd. Missing a total of 7 games last season, in light of how well he played the 9 games he was in, cost him a very probable Pro Bowl.

How does that help Osi get his big contract?

Daily News, Ralph Vacchiano, Fri Aug 19, 2011 excerpt--

"According to Giants trainer Ronnie Barnes, the surgery was "a simple debridement," which is essentially a removal of scar or frayed tissue from around the old injury. The surgery was performed by Dr. Russell Warren, the Giants' team physician, at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan.

Coughlin said Umenyiora's decision to have the surgery was "no surprise" and that the Giants first discussed the possibility "maybe 6-8 weeks ago" - which would've been during the NFL lockout. However, when Umenyiora, 29, ended his holdout and didn't immediately return to practice, the Giants seemed very skeptical of his injury. In fact, they pointedly didn't list him with a knee injury on their injury report. The press release instead said "he says he has a sore knee."

GMENAGAIN
05-10-2012, 05:44 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<FONT size=5>Osi being spiteful</FONT> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</P>


</P>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</P>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</P>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</P>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</P>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp . . . . it was well-reported at the time. </P>


A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical. The team knew there was a knee issue the day after he reported to camp. It apparently was something that could be postponed but would eventually need surgery. That's the reporting I read at any rate.</P>


He was trying to get a new deal before he came into camp . . . . and hence before the Giants would have found out about his injury. </P>


Moreover, Osi's knee injury was not discovered during his first day of camp physical. The first the team knew about his injury was when Osi told them that he couldn't practice because of it.</P>


Please provide a link to the reporting that you read. All of the reporting that I read was that the Giants were completely surprised when Osi said that he was unable to practice because of a knee injury. Even Tuck suggested that Osi sitting out of practice because of his knee injury was part of his negotiating strategy.</P>


Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora has knee surgery, team says ...</P>


Link not working . . . . </P>

Drez
05-10-2012, 06:10 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<font size="5">Osi being spiteful</font> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</p>


</p>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</p>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</p>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</p>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</p>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp . . . . it was well-reported at the time. </p>


A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical. The team knew there was a knee issue the day after he reported to camp. It apparently was something that could be postponed but would eventually need surgery. That's the reporting I read at any rate.</p>


He was trying to get a new deal before he came into camp . . . . and hence before the Giants would have found out about his injury. </p>


Moreover, Osi's knee injury was not discovered during his first day of camp physical. The first the team knew about his injury was when Osi told them that he couldn't practice because of it.</p>


Please provide a link to the reporting that you read. All of the reporting that I read was that the Giants were completely surprised when Osi said that he was unable to practice because of a knee injury. Even Tuck suggested that Osi sitting out of practice because of his knee injury was part of his negotiating strategy.</p>
How could he be guilty of hiding anything before camp, or get a new contract (at least in an active sense)? Due to the lockout he couldn't have any communication with the team, nor the team with him.

BlueSanta
05-10-2012, 07:23 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<font size="5">Osi being spiteful</font> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</p>


</p>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</p>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</p>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</p>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</p>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp . . . . it was well-reported at the time. </p>

A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical.
You mean the physical that Osi skipped in protest of a lack of a contract?

As I said above, Osi came to the facility but initially refused to partake in practice or the physical. It was then that the Giants started fining. Most of the time you respond to my posts it is a difference of opinion and thats ok. But, this isnt opinion, it was well reported and you are lacking facts.

BeatYale
05-10-2012, 09:10 PM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</P>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</P>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee.* Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<FONT size=5>Osi being spiteful</FONT> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</P>


*</P>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</P>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value).* I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</P>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</P>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</P>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp *. . . . it was well-reported at the time.* </P>


A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical. The team knew there was a knee issue the day after he reported to camp. It apparently was something that could be postponed but would eventually need surgery. That's the reporting I read at any rate.</P>


He was trying to get a new deal before he came into camp . . . . and hence before the Giants would have found out about his injury.* </P>


Moreover, Osi's knee injury was not discovered during his first day of camp physical.* The first the team knew about his injury was when Osi told them that he couldn't practice because of it.</P>


Please provide a link to the reporting that you read.* All of the reporting that I read was that the Giants were completely surprised when Osi said that he was unable to practice because of a knee injury.* Even Tuck suggested that Osi sitting out of practice because of his knee injury was part of his negotiating strategy.</P>


Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora has knee surgery, team says

Sorry, am having difficulty applying the link.

It's a Vacchiano Aug 19 article where he recaps some of the saga surrounding Osi's decision.

Alludes to Tuck's remark about strategy, which is speculation on Tuck's part--not any fact.

It also alludes to Giants' knowledge of his knee issue 6-8 weeks before camp, but they downgraded it to "sore knee" by camp, in part because surgery was not REQUIRED for him to play--in team's med staff opinion--but alternative would be to keep him out of practices all season long and hope it didn't get worse.

Three days into camp and Osi had swelling knee at end of each day.

I don't argue at all that Osi likely originally chose to put off the eventually required surgery until he realized he was going nowhere else in 2011, and then chose to have it.

But my point has always been that once Osi came to the realization he would not receive a new contract in 2011--either from Giants or from another team--he decided to shelve his contract dissatisfaction and prepare for a full tilt 2011 season.

Getting the surgery that would be necessary at SOME point in his life out of the way weeks before the season began was, in his mind, the best thing for him and the team (ie, he would miss, at most, 2-3 games at beginning of the season and he would be able to practice throughout the season-- in theory at least).

That's quite different from the profile often painted on this board of Osi electing to have surgery as a way of "getting even" with Giants for not giving him a new rich contract or trading him. Certainly no "deception" on his part about his knee was involved, as suggested, since the Giants admit they were aware of the issue 2 months prior to camp.

The fact that he was injured late in the season causing him to miss 4 more games was, of course, not anticipated by anyone but did add to the frustration surrounding Osi. But to insist, as many on this board had during December, that the latter injury was "strategic" and "faked" was and is absurd. Missing a total of 7 games last season, in light of how well he played the 9 games he was in, cost him a very probable Pro Bowl.

How does that help Osi get his big contract?

Daily News, Ralph Vacchiano, Fri Aug 19, 2011 excerpt--

"According to Giants trainer Ronnie Barnes, the surgery was "a simple debridement," which is essentially a removal of scar or frayed tissue from around the old injury. The surgery was performed by Dr. Russell Warren, the Giants' team physician, at the Hospital for Special Surgery in Manhattan.

Coughlin said Umenyiora's decision to have the surgery was "no surprise" and that the Giants first discussed the possibility "maybe 6-8 weeks ago" - which would've been during the NFL lockout. However, when Umenyiora, 29, ended his holdout and didn't immediately return to practice, the Giants seemed very skeptical of his injury. In fact, they pointedly didn't list him with a knee injury on their injury report. The press release instead said "he says he has a sore knee."

I don't really recall anyone thinking of it as him getting even with the team by opting for the surgery

The surgery just ended up making him look more like a joke in the public eye. Simply because it exemplified the fact that he was trying to get a new contract while having a questionable knee. At the time no one could assume that he'd be able to play on the same level he always has (after the surgery).

It does explain some of the reasoning behind not giving him a new deal. Why roll the dice on it when you just drafted a DE in round 1?

gmen46
05-11-2012, 02:56 AM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee.* Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<font size="5">Osi being spiteful</font> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</p>


*</p>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</p>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value).* I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</p>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</p>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</p>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp *. . . . it was well-reported at the time.* </p>

A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical.
You mean the physical that Osi skipped in protest of a lack of a contract?

As I said above, Osi came to the facility but initially refused to partake in practice or the physical. It was then that the Giants started fining. Most of the time you respond to my posts it is a difference of opinion and thats ok. But, this isnt opinion, it was well reported and you are lacking* facts.






Read my last response. I quote from Ralph Vacchiano's 8/19/11 article where Coughlin says they discussed the possibility of Osi having his knee operated on 6-8 weeks prior to camp, and that he "was not surprised" by Osi's eventual decision to have the operation.

Not opinion. Facts.

And I was responding to GMENAGAIN's claim that Osi "deceived" the Giants about his knee issue and "surprised" them when he complained of his knee swelling.

Coughlin's acknowledgement to Vacchiano that they were aware of Osi's knee problem 6-8 weeks before camp began belies that false claim.

BlueSanta
05-11-2012, 03:59 AM
Actually, if anything this seems to raise a red flag about Rivers. Why not have the surgery as soon as possible? Seems like he was trying to go on the pup, instead of get back on the field as soon as possible.</p>


Could it be because the owners had locked out the players and he had no health insurance to cover it?</p>



IIRC, players that were injured prior to the lockout still had coverage for those injuries.

Most likely, he was probably waiting to see if it'd heal enough to avoid surgery, as many players do.

Quite honestly, why go under the knife if it's not necessary?


Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher, but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and perhaps he should have been.
Accountable for what? As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs ALL the time in professional sports. All the time. Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself. In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a season. By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "<font size="5">Osi being spiteful</font> (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge surgery")". And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by Week 3 or 4. That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.</p>


</p>


It wasn't Osi being spiteful . . . . it was Osi being deceitful.</p>


He knew he had a knee problem that required surgery and didn't tell the Giants about it in the hopes that he could extort a new deal from them before they found out about the injury (which would obviously reduce his value). I am quite sure that the FO was not happy with that at all.</p>


It doesn't appear that Rivers' situation was anything like that.</p>



If Osi knew that he needed surgery, then the Giants knew he needed surgery and any other team that he would have been dealt to would have discovered the need during the physical/kicking the tires phase of the trade.
</p>


The Giants had no idea he had a knee injury until he came into camp . . . . it was well-reported at the time. </p>

A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each player undergoes a physical.
You mean the physical that Osi skipped in protest of a lack of a contract?

As I said above, Osi came to the facility but initially refused to partake in practice or the physical. It was then that the Giants started fining. Most of the time you respond to my posts it is a difference of opinion and thats ok. But, this isnt opinion, it was well reported and you are lacking facts.






Read my last response. I quote from Ralph Vacchiano's 8/19/11 article where Coughlin says they discussed the possibility of Osi having his knee operated on 6-8 weeks prior to camp, and that he "was not surprised" by Osi's eventual decision to have the operation.

You are posting an article that doesn't support your claim.

What is says is that The GIANTS discussed Osi's knee, not that he told them it was injured and required surgery. Why wouldnt they discuss it? It is the same exact knee he had problems with(same exact injury, torn meniscus) in 2008. So of course the Giants , who are in contract negotiations with him are going to discuss a previous knee injury. Its a factor in his determining his contract value. Because they weren't fooled by his trying to hide the injury from team doctors doesnt mean he didnt try to hide it.

Osi did not let doctors see his knee at all until finally giving up on contract talks, end of story. It is fact.

The Giants were very clear on this, when he reported to camp and sat out of everything, including the phsyical. Garafolo report on it a few times as well.

Again tho, why didnt he have the surgery at the end of the previous season?

Are you avoiding the question? He could have had it done all the way up to the draft but chose not to. In effect, he volunteered to miss games when a better solution was perfectly available, 1 that would have allowed his knee more time to heal and allowed him to be there day 1.

giantsfan420
05-11-2012, 04:51 AM
blue santa, u keep saying its a fact...and called out other posters to provide evidence of their claims. gmen obviously has and he has supported his stance with fact, however you misconstrue it...

so i ask you, wheres your evidence?u keep saying it was reported on a lot, so go ahead, get us a link...we'll wait

edit- and i love how ur claiming to know what osi thought of his knee, and then passing it off as some sort of fact...

BlueSanta
05-11-2012, 10:45 AM
What exactly have I said that is in doubt?

Again, lets look at what I said:




Btw, this is exactly what Osi did . He
chose not to have his surgery at the end of 2010 for fear it would hurt
his value in negotiations that offseason if the Giants knew about that
knee. Choosing to wait till the start of camp to have his knee operated
on, Osi put the 2011 season in jeopordy. I love Osi as a passrusher,
but to this day, I do not think he was held accountable for this and
perhaps he should have been.



I said 2 things:
1) Osi chose not to have surgery at the end of 2010, instead waiting for the start of 2011 camp to reveal the injury to the team and have surgery.

and 2) that he was not held accountable for this.

When Gmen 1st reposnded he took issue with the 2nd part of that statement, not the 1st. In fact, he didnt argue the 1st statement 1 bit and NOBODY has yet done so because it is FACT. Here is his response:



Accountable for what?

As Drez indicates, this kind of delay in deciding upon surgery occurs
ALL the time in professional sports. All the time.

Usually in these cases the medical staff has either urged waiting a few
months to see if time and nature takes care of the healing. Or, they may
give the player the choice himself whether to have surgery immediately
or wait several months to see if the injury heals itself.

In either case, surgery is seen by both doctor and patient as an
alternative of last resort. Which all too often--from a fans' point of
view--results in disappointing announcements right before a season
begins--or right as the season begins--that a certain player needs
surgery and will miss the first several weeks, or a couple months, or a
season.

By all accounts this is exactly what occurred with Osi--although many on
this board insist upon clinging to the opinion that it was "Osi being
spiteful (I, however, have never ever head of a self prescribed "revenge
surgery")".

And the Giants--unlike the Bengals with Rivers--opted to keep him on the
active list, believing he would (as he, in fact, did) return to play by
Week 3 or 4.

That decision was one of hundreds that distinguishes the Giants
organization from that of the Bengals. Thank god.

So tell me, where in there does he refute ANYTHING I said. To be honest, that response is nice and all but has little to do with anything I said at all. But take note: he ONLY took issue with my stance that he wasnt held accountable, not with the actions themself.


It is at this point that a bunch of OTHER people made claims that I did not that people seem to be attributing to me.

However, I chimed in when Gmen noted that The Giants had knowledge because of the physical players go through at the start of camp. Seen here:



A player can't "deceive" a team about an injury. First day of camp each
player undergoes a physical. The team knew there was a knee issue the
day after he reported to camp.

It apparently was something that could be postponed but would eventually
need surgery.

That's the reporting I read at any rate.

However, I pointed out that Osi did NOT take the physical(again a FACT) when he came to camp. In fact, the article he linked verifies this by noting the team's cynical comments when he missed practice. In wasn't until the 3rd week of august that he finally took a physical and the team noted the injury as seen in his article dated August 19th. Prior to that the Giants quotes all read as Follows

"he says he has a sore knee"

Note the " HE SAYS" indicating they had not seen him at a physical yet as I stated.

Do you even understand that? The article he linked shows EXACTLY what I said to be true and in no way refutes the claim I made that he could have had the surgery at the end of 2010.


I guess if you absolutely need an article link then ill give you 1, even though Gmen's article shows exactly what I said to be true. However, feel free to read this article written a couple days after the start of camp. (http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/08/giants_osi_umenyiora_says_hes.html) Feel free to also watch the video link at the bottom as well where Garofolo discusses the situation as of august 4th.

So, in total I have made 3 claims:1) that osi elected to have the surgery in August rather than January(fact)

2) that he wasn't held accountable for it. This is my opinion.As I said when I posted it by saying I THINK he wasnt held accountable.

and 3) that he didnt take the physical when he reported to camp(in response to Gmen saying a player cant hide an injury because of the phsyical)

Nothing anyone here refutes any of this. #2 is a matter of opinion so its is debatable. You could argue the team held him accountable when on the 1st day of camp they fined him 30k. But, other than that, the facts are not at all in doubt and nothing anyone has linked anywhere does anything but verify what I said.

.

BlueSanta
05-11-2012, 11:05 AM
and i love how ur claiming to know what osi thought of his knee, and then passing it off as some sort of fact...

huh?

What are you talking about?

Did you even read my posts?

Ill say it again, I have made 3 claims in this thread:

1) that Osi chose not to have the surgery at the end of 2010 or early 2011 instead opting to do it in August 2011(fact).

2) that He wasn't held accountable for this decision, but I clearly stated this as my opinion.

and 3) I said that he did not take the physical at the start of camp in response to Gmen saying a player cant hide an injury because of the physical at the start of camp. Gmen's link article verifies that Osi did not take the physical until later into the camp, as I said.


And lastly, I have asked everyone who responded why didnt Osi have the surgery at the end of 2010? Nobody has responded.

So what are on about again?