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g_menfan80
06-06-2012, 08:56 PM
Why do I keep hearing about Kiwi back to DE. He finally looked great at the strong side LB last year and we won the SB with him there. With Tuck, Osi, and JPP why would he go back to DE?

slipknottin
06-06-2012, 08:59 PM
People cant handle a guy that plays multiple positions.

Kiwi has to be a full time something or people throw a fit.

No idea why.

But Kiwi was one of the best run stuffing LBs in the entire league. Not sure why anyone would want to remove that from the defense.

MattMeyerBud
06-06-2012, 08:59 PM
Why do I keep hearing about Kiwi back to DE. He finally looked great at the strong side LB last year and we won the SB with him there. With Tuck, Osi, and JPP why would he go back to DE?

i think that was more with OSi returning being up in the air. If hes gone after this year i think it would be a good move.

A pass rsuhing DE is better than 1-2 down 4-3 OLB

slipknottin
06-06-2012, 09:00 PM
[A pass rsuhing DE is better than 1-2 down 4-3 OLB


Again. I dont understand how Kiwi has to be either an OLB or a DE.

Why cant he continue to play both?

Play LB on 1-2nd downs, and then move to DE

giantsfan420
06-06-2012, 09:07 PM
[A pass rsuhing DE is better than 1-2 down 4-3 OLB


Again. I dont understand how Kiwi has to be either an OLB or a DE.

Why cant he continue to play both?

Play LB on 1-2nd downs, and then move to DE

Well he was moved to lb when we had a need. If osi is leaving next season, we will need a legitimate third de...

And a de is move valuable than a two down lb...

But i still think we use him in both roles. He can just get more snaps at de, which last season, with jpp tuck osi and tolly, there wasnt many going around past them...

Its about getting the best players on the field. Kiwi will see the field alot bc he is one of our better d players

slipknottin
06-06-2012, 09:08 PM
Kiwi was an average DE.

He is one of the best run stopping LBs in the league.

Take him from where he is playing his best and move to him to a place he is less effective.

RoanokeFan
06-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Why do I keep hearing about Kiwi back to DE. He finally looked great at the strong side LB last year and we won the SB with him there. With Tuck, Osi, and JPP why would he go back to DE?

It was a option to consider when Osi was iffy.

g_menfan80
06-06-2012, 09:14 PM
Exactly he was an OK DE. He had a great rookie year except for the Vince Young non sack and then in 08 when Stray retired and Osi got hurt he actually wasn't that impressive. I remember towards the end of the season with Tuck wore down we were pleading for him to make play's. Last year he looked fantastic as the hybrid LB and blitzing on 3rd down's. This should be his role for the remainder of his career.

giantsfan420
06-06-2012, 09:15 PM
Kiwi was an average DE.

He is one of the best run stopping LBs in the league.

Take him from where he is playing his best and move to him to a place he is less effective.
we always get into this...kiwi was what a second yr player when we moved him??? He led the team in sacks one season before he got hurt and also had a three sack game vs washington or philly. We discussed that one time i believe it was washington.
the truth is kiwi was a young de who showed flashes of excellent to level de play. If jpp was moved to lb before this season, would u say he was an avg de based on such a small sample size??

Kiwi was a young, extremely talented de who showed great versatility and flashes of dominance...it was part of the reason we moved him. He was too good to sit behind osi and tuck, similar to jpps situation.kiwi was just three yrs earlier when there was no chance anyone would start over osi, tuck didnt even until stray retired.

To say kiwi was an avg de is flat wrong or at the least, a premature statement.
had kiwi stayed at de and never switched, i bet hed be considered one of the better des. He was good vs the run, and could get to the qb even though he was a bit raw/lacked an arsenal of rush moves.

giantsfan420
06-06-2012, 09:16 PM
Exactly he was an OK DE. He had a great rookie year except for the Vince Young non sack and then in 08 when Stray retired and Osi got hurt he actually wasn't that impressive. I remember towards the end of the season with Tuck wore down we were pleading for him to make play's. Last year he looked fantastic as the hybrid LB and blitzing on 3rd down's. This should be his role for the remainder of his career.

U mean the year he led the team in pressures???

slipknottin
06-06-2012, 09:22 PM
we always get into this...kiwi was what a second yr player when we moved him??? He led the team in sacks one season before he got hurt and also had a three sack game vs washington or philly.
And he was playing LB that season...



. If jpp was moved to lb before this season, would u say he was an avg de based on such a small sample size??
Kiwi had an entire season as a starting DE. He was average.


kiwi was just three yrs earlier when there was no chance anyone would start over osi, tuck didnt even until stray retired.
If Kiwi went out and put together a 16.5 sack season as primarily a backup player, he would have stayed at DE. But he had a season where he started 16 games, and was not anywhere near as good as the other DEs.


To say kiwi was an avg de is flat wrong or at the least, a premature statement.
had kiwi stayed at de and never switched, i bet hed be considered one of the better des.
Thats just nonsense. He started more games at DE than JPP has. How do you figure that thats premature?

slipknottin
06-06-2012, 09:23 PM
U mean the year he led the team in pressures???

Yep, the guy who could never finish the job.

He led the team in pressures in what year? 08? When Osi was on IR and the only other DE on the team was Tuck... And Tuck was clearly the better DE that season, by a huge amount.

SweetZombieJesus
06-06-2012, 09:23 PM
[A pass rsuhing DE is better than 1-2 down 4-3 OLB


Again. I dont understand how Kiwi has to be either an OLB or a DE.

Why cant he continue to play both?

Play LB on 1-2nd downs, and then move to DE

Kiwi refused to switch back to DE after switching several times.

Players spend most of their meeting and film study time in sub-groups -- D-line, LB, and secondary travel in different orbits during the week. Not to mention the techniques they practice, etc, are vastly different.

If you're doing both you're half-assing both.

slipknottin
06-06-2012, 09:25 PM
Kiwi refused to switch back to DE after switching several times.

I never heard this.

But either way, Kiwi resigned knowing he would be playing LB and some DE.

g_menfan80
06-06-2012, 09:30 PM
Kiwi has never refused to do anything that's why he got paid! Yup in 08 he couldn't finish the job, 8 sacks is descent but lot of 'should have' pressure's. Not a lot of tackles for 16 games at DE and completely healthy

NY_Eli
06-06-2012, 09:54 PM
[A pass rsuhing DE is better than 1-2 down 4-3 OLB


Again. I dont understand how Kiwi has to be either an OLB or a DE.

Why cant he continue to play both?

Play LB on 1-2nd downs, and then move to DE

+1

giantsfan420
06-06-2012, 10:21 PM
Some people have skewed expectations. In kiwis second year playing, he led the NY GIANTS in pressures....eh whats that matter, lmfao.

Ur prob is ur acting like kiwi was given time and coached up as a de for more than a couple seasons...that yr he was leadint the team in sacks he was de not lb btw...or at the least had his sacks as a de...

Kiwi displayed a ton of promise. How many des come in the nfl and have near the success or potential that kiwi had his first couple seasons playing? Jpp are the rarest exceptions. Kiwis are exceptions too. Ur viewing him as a finished product as de when thats ******ed. Like i said, itd be like judging jpp off his rookie season...

Kiwi showed such promise the coaches felt he was talented enough to move to lb outta nowhere just bc he was too good to not play. Had it been anyone besides stray osi or tuck, kiwi would have started.

Again, kiwi may have been an avg complete finished product at de, only he was not close to developed or given near the time to be a finished product at de.

Stats like sacks dont tell everything. A thing like pressures gives a better picture imho in most cases. Yea it woulda been nice to see more dacks but he was so young and raw, he was getting there on talent. And he was very good vs the run...

Some people have a distorted memory or reality...at the time, there wasnt a person with a good understanding of football thatd say kiwi didnt show a ton of upside and talent...its just time goes by, and ppl start twisting things. Kiwi was not an avg de, point blank

Neverend
06-06-2012, 10:22 PM
I'm not sure if "refused" is the right word to describe the situation, but kiwi didnt want to play DE earlier in the year when the staff asked him too because he was supposedly confident Tollefson wouldn't miss a beat starting for Tuck -- according to the star ledger

IMO I think kiwi is a decent DE. Hes a very raw run defender in terms of technique, I notice he doesn't get leverage and use his hands/arms very well. But kiwi very good linebacker against the run as he can just use his elite length/strength downhill to destroy offensive lineman .

I don't think he needs to move back to DE at all, and he probably never will anyway due to the talent there regardless

giantsfan420
06-06-2012, 10:25 PM
Some people have skewed expectations. In kiwis second year playing, he led the NY GIANTS in pressures....eh whats that matter, lmfao.

Ur prob is ur acting like kiwi was given time and coached up as a de for more than a couple seasons...that yr he was leadint the team in sacks he was de not lb btw...or at the least had his sacks as a de...

Kiwi displayed a ton of promise. How many des come in the nfl and have near the success or potential that kiwi had his first couple seasons playing? Jpp are the rarest exceptions. Kiwis are exceptions too. Ur viewing him as a finished product as de when thats ******ed. Like i said, itd be like judging jpp off his rookie season...

Kiwi showed such promise the coaches felt he was talented enough to move to lb outta nowhere just bc he was too good to not play. Had it been anyone besides stray osi or tuck, kiwi would have started.

Again, kiwi may have been an avg complete finished product at de, only he was not close to developed or given near the time to be a finished product at de.

Stats like sacks dont tell everything. A thing like pressures gives a better picture imho in most cases. Yea it woulda been nice to see more dacks but he was so young and raw, he was getting there on talent. And he was very good vs the run...

Some people have a distorted memory or reality...at the time, there wasnt a person with a good understanding of football thatd say kiwi didnt show a ton of upside and talent...its just time goes by, and ppl start twisting things. Kiwi was not an avg de, point blank

To slip.

And to add, jpp had moderate statistical success as a rookie. Were u calling him avg this past offseason? Not every player makes the leap jpp made in one season, in fact, its extremely rare.
kiwi was making progress, showing up, playing consistent, getting pressures and sacks, and did so while young and learning. Whose to say had kiwi not switched, he couldnt have had a 16 sack season? He wasnt close to being finished product, its a huge part to why we moved him

miked1958
06-06-2012, 11:08 PM
Not sure but I think it's beat suited for him and the team if he stays at LB

buddy33
06-06-2012, 11:37 PM
Osi was iffy and Tolly left. I think that's why people where talking about him moving back.

buddy33
06-06-2012, 11:41 PM
Another thing about Kiwi, he is a great athlete. I don't think it's fair to say he can't be a very good DE. He has never had a long period of playing time to master any one position. Between being switched back and forth and injuries it's not like you can say he had lots of time to master the position. I mean he did pretty well when he was forced to play DE when Osi was lost for the year and he was prepared to play LB.

gmen0820
06-06-2012, 11:43 PM
Kiwi has always been one of my favorite players.

I think he will continue to be used as a joker, so that mismatches can be found and exploited.

JJC7301
06-06-2012, 11:46 PM
Why do I keep hearing about Kiwi back to DE. He finally looked great at the strong side LB last year and we won the SB with him there. With Tuck, Osi, and JPP why would he go back to DE?
+1. Leave him alone at LB -- I love the extra pressure that they can bring with him on the field from the LB spot.

SweetZombieJesus
06-07-2012, 06:52 AM
Kiwi has never refused to do anything that's why he got paid! Yup in 08 he couldn't finish the job, 8 sacks is descent but lot of 'should have' pressure's. Not a lot of tackles for 16 games at DE and completely healthy

Do you really need me to dig up the article? I think it was in 2009 or 2010 they asked him yet again to switch because of an Osi/Tuck injury and he declined. He's already been switched 3-4 times at that point.

RagTime Blue
06-07-2012, 09:06 AM
Kiwi has never refused to do anything that's why he got paid! Yup in 08 he couldn't finish the job, 8 sacks is descent but lot of 'should have' pressure's. Not a lot of tackles for 16 games at DE and completely healthy

Do you really need me to dig up the article? I think it was in 2009 or 2010 they asked him yet again to switch because of an Osi/Tuck injury and he declined. He's already been switched 3-4 times at that point.


Since when are players allowed to refuse an assignment??

I honestly think as a DE he was a disappointment (for a 1st round pick). He can play DE at an NFL level, but was average on the right and got routinely blown-up on the left. Stats are stats, but I can remember seeing him just get washed-out on too many plays.

I really like how he's evolved as a LB (+DE). He's playing great football, and I think he's only going to get better. Very glad he's a Giant, and hopefully will be for years to come.

Mercury
06-07-2012, 09:23 AM
Kiwi has never refused to do anything that's why he got paid! Yup in 08 he couldn't finish the job, 8 sacks is descent but lot of 'should have' pressure's. Not a lot of tackles for 16 games at DE and completely healthy

Do you really need me to dig up the article? I think it was in 2009 or 2010 they asked him yet again to switch because of an Osi/Tuck injury and he declined. He's already been switched 3-4 times at that point.


I thought it was pure speculation on the part of fans and media that he might be moved to DE, and he was just setting the record straight that he is LB now. I don't think the Giants asked him to play DE and he refused. Please correct me if I am wrong.

bLuereverie
06-07-2012, 10:35 AM
Maybe these questions were in the eve of Osi uncertainties coupled with another unnecessary worry of Tollefson leaving? Maybe these questions were asked under the assumption Fewell would be using less of the 4-3 base?

Either way, I'm all for throwing our best players on the field where they will be most effective. If Kiwi can legitimately play WR, then hell, toss him up a few.

SweetZombieJesus
06-07-2012, 11:17 AM
Since when are players allowed to refuse an assignment??

He was asked to switch and he refused. They didn't demand it or threaten to trade him.



I thought it was
pure speculation on the part of fans and media that he might be moved to
DE, and he was just setting the record straight that he is LB now. I
don't think the Giants asked him to play DE and he refused. Please
correct me if I am wrong.


No, I remember reading it in the press, it was early, maybe even preseason or camp. It may have been when Tuck got cheap shotted by Flozell Adams in the first game, that was 2009. The coaches asked him about moving back to DE and he said he was tired of switching and wanted to stay put.

JesseJames
06-07-2012, 11:47 AM
Kiwi has never refused to do anything that's why he got paid! Yup in 08 he couldn't finish the job, 8 sacks is descent but lot of 'should have' pressure's. Not a lot of tackles for 16 games at DE and completely healthy the question that needs to be answered is what kind of DE would Kiwi have been if the team had left him at the position they drafted him to play instead of continually moving him around and slowing down his development at one position..

MattMeyerBud
06-07-2012, 01:19 PM
Kiwi refused to switch back to DE after switching several times.

I never heard this.

But either way, Kiwi resigned knowing he would be playing LB and some DE.

well he didn't refuse, but they asked him if they wanted to after some injuries and he said it doesn't make sense because we had Tollefson and he can def handle the job or something to that effect

MattMeyerBud
06-07-2012, 01:21 PM
Another thing about Kiwi, he is a great athlete. I don't think it's fair to say he can't be a very good DE. He has never had a long period of playing time to master any one position. Between being switched back and forth and injuries it's not like you can say he had lots of time to master the position. I mean he did pretty well when he was forced to play DE when Osi was lost for the year and he was prepared to play LB.

its actually pretty inaccurate

the first full offseason he had to be at weight and was listed as a DE was the same year he had that season ending injury with his neck. He had like 4 sacks in 3 games and looked sick.

im not saying move him this year, because theres no need. But we may revisit this convo after this season

burier
06-07-2012, 01:25 PM
Why do I keep hearing about Kiwi back to DE. He finally looked great at the strong side LB last year and we won the SB with him there. With Tuck, Osi, and JPP why would he go back to DE?

Well first of all he didn't look great at the Strong side last year. let me remind you that we showed serious issues stopping the run last season. Actually we had a hard time stopping anything last season. Kiwi looked decent...DEE---CENT not great! And if it wasn't for the fact that he can also play DE I'd say that he needs to be upgraded.

Also as I understand most of the DE talk was happening before Osi signed his deal.

Also our pass can only be helped by a solid rotation.

I for one think we should be trying to get Kiwi as many snaps on the DL as possible.

buddy33
06-07-2012, 01:45 PM
Another thing about Kiwi, he is a great athlete. I don't think it's fair to say he can't be a very good DE. He has never had a long period of playing time to master any one position. Between being switched back and forth and injuries it's not like you can say he had lots of time to master the position. I mean he did pretty well when he was forced to play DE when Osi was lost for the year and he was prepared to play LB.

its actually pretty inaccurate

the first full offseason he had to be at weight and was listed as a DE was the same year he had that season ending injury with his neck. He had like 4 sacks in 3 games and looked sick.

im not saying move him this year, because theres no need. But we may revisit this convo after this season

He also had 8 sacks the year he had to fill in for Osi. That was also when he had to make a switch late in pre season from LB.

Neverend
06-07-2012, 02:11 PM
again, its not kiwi somehow back lashing and rebelling against the coaching staff. Kiwi has over the years just politely declined playing DE, but it was for his teammates

a more recent example:

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/09/unheralded_dave_tollefson_fill.html

from the piece:


Kiwanuka, a natural defensive end, turned down the coaches’ request for him to move from linebacker because he had faith in Tollefson to fill in for Tuck.

“It meant a lot, man, especially after hearing what Kiwi had to say,” Tollefson said of his first start. “Because the biggest thing to me is the guys in this locker room and what they think about me. To hear your peer talk about you like that and know these guys trust me to go out there and play a game and start, it means a lot, it really does.

dezzzR
06-07-2012, 03:14 PM
Another thing about Kiwi, he is a great athlete. I don't think it's fair to say he can't be a very good DE. He has never had a long period of playing time to master any one position. Between being switched back and forth and injuries it's not like you can say he had lots of time to master the position. I mean he did pretty well when he was forced to play DE when Osi was lost for the year and he was prepared to play LB.

its actually pretty inaccurate

the first full offseason he had to be at weight and was listed as a DE was the same year he had that season ending injury with his neck. He had like 4 sacks in 3 games and looked sick.

im not saying move him this year, because theres no need. But we may revisit this convo after this season

He also had 8 sacks the year he had to fill in for Osi. That was also when he had to make a switch late in pre season from LB.He also broke his leg the year before. This whole "kiwi is an average DE" is silly. The guy will excel where ever he is

Coach Carter
06-07-2012, 03:56 PM
Kiwi has never refused to do anything that's why he got paid! Yup in 08 he couldn't finish the job, 8 sacks is descent but lot of 'should have' pressure's. Not a lot of tackles for 16 games at DE and completely healthy

He was not completely healthy in 08, the LT for the skins in game one cheap shotted Kiwi after Kiwi blew past him. He played hurt for the rest of the year.

Redeyejedi
06-07-2012, 04:14 PM
People cant handle a guy that plays multiple positions.

Kiwi has to be a full time something or people throw a fit.

No idea why.

But Kiwi was one of the best run stuffing LBs in the entire league. Not sure why anyone would want to remove that from the defense.Instead of him playing LB on 1st and 2nd he can sit on the bench . Makes perfect sense to me . Lets pay a guy almost 6 million to play 400 snaps

giantman8493
06-07-2012, 04:18 PM
People cant handle a guy that plays multiple positions.

Kiwi has to be a full time something or people throw a fit.

No idea why.

But Kiwi was one of the best run stuffing LBs in the entire league. Not sure why anyone would want to remove that from the defense.Instead of him playing LB on 1st and 2nd he can sit on the bench . Makes perfect sense to me . Lets pay a guy almost 6 million to play 400 snapsThats what we are currently doing for osi.....

giantsfan420
06-07-2012, 06:11 PM
Kiwi has never refused to do anything that's why he got paid! Yup in 08 he couldn't finish the job, 8 sacks is descent but lot of 'should have' pressure's. Not a lot of tackles for 16 games at DE and completely healthy the question that needs to be answered is what kind of DE would Kiwi have been if the team had left him at the position they drafted him to play instead of continually moving him around and slowing down his development at one position..

Exactly. And despite the moving around, and injuries, he led the team in pressures one season, and was leading the team in sacks in another before another injury.
he displayed flashes of excellent de play. In no way is kiwi an avg de...avg des dont have the ability to switch into another position and still have success. Avg players arent moved around in a plan to get the best players on the field.
kiwi didnt show the promise jpp has, but he still showed a ton of promise. Its premature and well imo, wrong, to try to define kiwi as a de when he was so young and early into his development

giantsfan420
06-07-2012, 06:14 PM
Another thing about Kiwi, he is a great athlete. I don't think it's fair to say he can't be a very good DE. He has never had a long period of playing time to master any one position. Between being switched back and forth and injuries it's not like you can say he had lots of time to master the position. I mean he did pretty well when he was forced to play DE when Osi was lost for the year and he was prepared to play LB.

its actually pretty inaccurate

the first full offseason he had to be at weight and was listed as a DE was the same year he had that season ending injury with his neck. He had like 4 sacks in 3 games and looked sick.

im not saying move him this year, because theres no need. But we may revisit this convo after this season

Thank u both. Great points. Kiwi showed a ton of promise/potential and played at a high level despite the switching back n forth and the injuries...

bLuereverie
06-08-2012, 10:14 AM
I think this is all pretty moot. Are you going to replace Tuck or JPP with him now? Or even Osi?

Do you want a third/fourth DE or a starting LB?

All of that has nothing to do with the caliber player Kiwi was at DE. Just more of a testament of those in front of him.

G-Man67
06-08-2012, 12:40 PM
yeah, i dont get it either ... i look at it simply as a way to get your best 11 players on the field(well 11 out of 12 b/cof Osi)... Kiwi is a solid defender and i could care less whether he's down in a 3 point stance or standing up ... i'm just glad we have him on the team ... his versatiltiy and willingness to play multiple positions makes him even more valuable ... in this league sacks=$$$$, so he could be a prima-donna and demand more snaps at DE to pad his sacks</P>


now having said that ... with Tolly gone ... and Rivers in as another LB ... that could equate to him getting more DE/D-line snaps this season, but i don't see the need to put a position label on him</P>