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View Full Version : On paper this might be the best defense we've ever had



Warchild
06-07-2012, 02:30 PM
Think about it, we have probowl level talent at almost every position on our defense and probably the deepest CB depth in the league.

Except for maybe the 86 defense and that is mainly just because of LT / Carson / Banks.

Overall, I think this defense has more potential.

I can't wait for this season!

Flip Empty
06-07-2012, 02:34 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

burier
06-07-2012, 02:39 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.

Flip Empty
06-07-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.
A lot of that personnel was on IR last season.

burier
06-07-2012, 02:44 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.
A lot of that personnel was on IR last season.

Who?

Neverend
06-07-2012, 02:46 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.

... and one of the best during the postseasons

NWKEffectElement
06-07-2012, 02:46 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.

With Boley being the best tackler in the league and Kiwi be one of the best run stopping LBs in the league I don't see how you have come to that conclusion.

scf424
06-07-2012, 02:55 PM
It'll also be the third year under Fewell.

burier
06-07-2012, 02:57 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.

With Boley being the best tackler in the league and Kiwi be one of the best run stopping LBs in the league I don't see how you have come to that conclusion.

One thing about Boley is he played completely out of his mind last season. Much better than he had ever played in his career so we may want to wait and see if he can double it up.

Your comment on Kiwi is pure fiction.

Flip Empty
06-07-2012, 03:02 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.
A lot of that personnel was on IR last season.

Who?
You somehow missed the rookie backers starting, the revolving door at DB, and players playing out of position?
That defense redefined "banged up"

From memory:

IR:

Terrell Thomas
Justin Tryon
Brian Witherspoon
Bruce Johnson
Michael Coe
Brian Jackson
Goff
Sintim
Marvin Austin

Missed time:

Tuck
Osi
Prince
Derrick Martin
Boley
Herzlich

buddy33
06-07-2012, 03:13 PM
I've debated this before. When they got healthy in the second to last game of the season hey where a better team.

Tuck is a top DE in this league and was not healthy until the Jets game. Osi missed half the season. Their secondary was destroyed with injuries. They where using rookie LB's in a lock out season and eventually had to get a guy to play LB that was sitting at home.

If they stay healhy they are a good unit and on paper they do seem stacked.

burier
06-07-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.
A lot of that personnel was on IR last season.

Who?
You somehow missed the rookie backers starting, the revolving door at DB, and players playing out of position?
That defense redefined "banged up"

From memory:

IR:

Terrell Thomas
Justin Tryon
Brian Witherspoon
Bruce Johnson
Michael Coe
Brian Jackson
Goff
Sintim
Marvin Austin

Missed time:

Tuck
Osi
Prince
Derrick Martin
Boley
Herzlich

So lets break your list down.

T2: Tore the same ACL for the second time. NO reason at all to believe he's going to provide anything for us this season.

Tryon, Witherspoon , Johnson, Coe, Jackson: All depth players. Those guys being IRed is no excuse for how we played last season.

Goff: *Scoff* In his one year as a starter he posted 54 solos in 16 games. I'm gonna say that his production should have been easily replaced.

Sintim: Has shown zero ability to crack our starting lineup ie He wouldn't have been playing anyway.

Austin: Was a rookie complaining about him not being in the lineup is like saying you miss something you never had.

As far as the guys who missed time. Guess what? Its the NFL players are going to miss time again this season I guarantee it. If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."

Mercury
06-07-2012, 03:30 PM
You are right. Injuries were not an excuse for um, winning the SB.

sharick88
06-07-2012, 03:34 PM
Think about it, we have probowl level talent at almost every position on our defense and probably the deepest CB depth in the league.

Except for maybe the 86 defense and that is mainly just because of LT / Carson / Banks.

Overall, I think this defense has more potential.

I can't wait for this season!

I respectfully disagree. For it to be deemed "the best defense we've ever had", there shouldn't be any question marks on it or any what ifs. We still have questions at linebacker and at the CB position. Just my piece.

Flip Empty
06-07-2012, 03:35 PM
If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."
Why didn't they play well early in the season? Maybe because they were constantly readjusting to new personnel - personnel which previously had not been prepared to start? Maybe because they were fielding adifferent lineup every other week?

They lost players five levels deep in the secondary - that's unheard of.

They had to force low-ranked rookies into the starting lineup.

They had to sign someone off of his couch.

Why did they turn it on in the playoffs? Maybe because they finally got healthy and found some stability?


I don't know how you can say they "weren't all that hurt" last season. You're arguing a fact.

SweetZombieJesus
06-07-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er.

I think we're also accepting that there will only be 2 of them on the field most of the time, Goff is gone, Boley stepped up, and we've got a whole platoon that shows promise and one or two of those guys should emerge (Herz, Rivers, J Williams, etc.)

Morehead State
06-07-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising. Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs. lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise. Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud. People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.</P>


You just lost all your Morehead brownie points you earned with the "Cheerleaders with thickness" comment.</P>


You have to be nuts. This sdefense came together in a huge was at the end of the season and the playoffs.</P>


No reason we won't build on that this season and improve even more with players coming back.</P>


Silly point of view on this one my friend.</P>

burier
06-07-2012, 03:45 PM
If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."
Why didn't they play well early in the season? Maybe because they were constantly readjusting to new personnel - personnel which previously had not been prepared to start? Maybe because they were fielding adifferent lineup every other week?

They lost players five levels deep in the secondary - that's unheard of.

They had to force low-ranked rookies into the starting lineup.

They had to sign someone off of his couch.

Why did they turn it on in the playoffs? Maybe because they finally got healthy and found some stability?


I don't know how you can say they "weren't all that hurt" last season. You're arguing a fact.

I can say that because...I just told you why.

We actually lost only TWO starters to IR last season and one of them was a marginal starter to begin with. How can you argue that fact?

Our secondary consisted of 3 first round draft choices and 1 second round draft choice. They were all healthy all season too. (I think KP missed 1 game.)

Tuck and Osi missed time but (Convieniently) never missed time at the same time and we had a dominant player emerge in JPP. The DTS were healthy all season. (Again Austin doesn't count we have no idea how effective he would have been even if he didnt hurt himself.)

Then you look at the linebackers. Boley didn't miss an extended period of time and Kiwi was healthy all season. Herz got hurt later in the season but we brought in Chase who was acutally an upgrade.

We had a long list of scrub players on IR...so what?

lawl
06-07-2012, 04:06 PM
If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."
Why didn't they play well early in the season? Maybe because they were constantly readjusting to new personnel - personnel which previously had not been prepared to start? Maybe because they were fielding adifferent lineup every other week?

They lost players five levels deep in the secondary - that's unheard of.

They had to force low-ranked rookies into the starting lineup.

They had to sign someone off of his couch.

Why did they turn it on in the playoffs? Maybe because they finally got healthy and found some stability?


I don't know how you can say they "weren't all that hurt" last season. You're arguing a fact.

I can say that because...I just told you why.

We actually lost only TWO starters to IR last season and one of them was a marginal starter to begin with. How can you argue that fact?

Our secondary consisted of 3 first round draft choices and 1 second round draft choice. They were all healthy all season too. (I think KP missed 1 game.)

Tuck and Osi missed time but (Convieniently) never missed time at the same time and we had a dominant player emerge in JPP. The DTS were healthy all season. (Again Austin doesn't count we have no idea how effective he would have been even if he didnt hurt himself.)

Then you look at the linebackers. Boley didn't miss an extended period of time and Kiwi was healthy all season. Herz got hurt later in the season but we brought in Chase who was acutally an upgrade.

We had a long list of scrub players on IR...so what?
The number 3 corner back is more or less a starter on every team in the league to include ours. 5 of our top 7 corners were hurt for 10 ormore games. This, of course forced us to play rolle at nickleback, which is not what he is best suited for. Our cornerback injuries weakened 3 starting positions, simultaneously. All in the secondary.

To compound this, tuck was.injured virtually all year and osi missed half the season as. So, not only is our back end drastically weakened, the pass rush isn't there to mask that.

Roswell777
06-07-2012, 04:07 PM
The difference between the Giant D in '86 and the current Giant D is that in '86, besides having a vastly superior D coordinator and a defensively minded head coach, the '86 team lived and died with their front seven.

This team lives and dies with its front four.

Morehead State
06-07-2012, 04:11 PM
The difference between the Giant D in '86 and the current Giant D is that in '86, besides having a vastly superior D coordinator and a defensively minded head coach, the '86 team lived and died with their front seven. This team lives and dies with its front four.</P>


3-4's are like that.</P>

Neverend
06-07-2012, 04:28 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.
A lot of that personnel was on IR last season.

Who?
You somehow missed the rookie backers starting, the revolving door at DB, and players playing out of position?
That defense redefined "banged up"

From memory:

IR:

Terrell Thomas
Justin Tryon
Brian Witherspoon
Bruce Johnson
Michael Coe
Brian Jackson
Goff
Sintim
Marvin Austin

Missed time:

Tuck
Osi
Prince
Derrick Martin
Boley
Herzlich

So lets break your list down.

T2: Tore the same ACL for the second time. NO reason at all to believe he's going to provide anything for us this season.

Tryon, Witherspoon , Johnson, Coe, Jackson: All depth players. Those guys being IRed is no excuse for how we played last season.

Goff: *Scoff* In his one year as a starter he posted 54 solos in 16 games. I'm gonna say that his production should have been easily replaced.

Sintim: Has shown zero ability to crack our starting lineup ie He wouldn't have been playing anyway.

Austin: Was a rookie complaining about him not being in the lineup is like saying you miss something you never had.

As far as the guys who missed time. Guess what? Its the NFL players are going to miss time again this season I guarantee it. If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."

Interesting how you avoid to acknowledge about the Tuck/Osi injuries that poster stated in his post.

The addition of those two (hopefully) having their injuries behind them is HUGE.

I do somewhat agree, I'm not sure T2 is gonna come right in and give the giants great defense right away. There might be a lag. But still, ross played admirably in the playoff run but he wasn't a really a great corner during the regular season. Infact, pretty terrible at times

THE_New_York_Giants
06-07-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.
A lot of that personnel was on IR last season.

Who?
You somehow missed the rookie backers starting, the revolving door at DB, and players playing out of position?
That defense redefined "banged up"

From memory:

IR:

Terrell Thomas
Justin Tryon
Brian Witherspoon
Bruce Johnson
Michael Coe
Brian Jackson
Goff
Sintim
Marvin Austin

Missed time:

Tuck
Osi
Prince
Derrick Martin
Boley
Herzlich

So lets break your list down.

T2: Tore the same ACL for the second time. NO reason at all to believe he's going to provide anything for us this season.

Tryon, Witherspoon , Johnson, Coe, Jackson: All depth players. Those guys being IRed is no excuse for how we played last season.

Goff: *Scoff* In his one year as a starter he posted 54 solos in 16 games. I'm gonna say that his production should have been easily replaced.

Sintim: Has shown zero ability to crack our starting lineup ie He wouldn't have been playing anyway.

Austin: Was a rookie complaining about him not being in the lineup is like saying you miss something you never had.

As far as the guys who missed time. Guess what? Its the NFL players are going to miss time again this season I guarantee it. If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."

Interesting how you avoid to acknowledge about the Tuck/Osi injuries that poster stated in his post.

The addition of those two (hopefully) having their injuries behind them is HUGE.

I do somewhat agree, I'm not sure T2 is gonna come right in and give the giants great defense right away. There might be a lag. But still, ross played admirably in the playoff run but he wasn't a really a great corner during the regular season. Infact, pretty terrible at times

Keep in mind the defense last year had a lot of young players playing significant roles who were thrown into their jobs without an offseason. As the season went on, the defense only got better and peaked at the end as they finally started to gel.

An entire offseason will work wonders for this team.

I think this is the best depth team the Giants have ever had. They can throw out A LOT of packages on both offense and defense. It reminds me a lot of the Patriots team that won 3 out of 4. That team didn't have a lot of superstars outside of Harrison and Law, but they had great depth players that worked extremely well together.

JimC
06-07-2012, 04:52 PM
Think about it, we have probowl level talent at almost every position on our defense and probably the deepest CB depth in the league.

Except for maybe the 86 defense and that is mainly just because of LT / Carson / Banks.

Overall, I think this defense has more potential.

I can't wait for this season!

Drinkin the Kool-Aid

Rat_bastich
06-07-2012, 05:29 PM
Think about it, we have probowl level talent at almost every position on our defense and probably the deepest CB depth in the league.

Except for maybe the 86 defense and that is mainly just because of LT / Carson / Banks.

Overall, I think this defense has more potential.

I can't wait for this season!

In 86 our d-line, corners and safeties were outstanding. The whole defensive unti was a monster. I mean guys like George Martin, Leonard Marshall, Perry Williams, Mark Collins, Jim Burt, Erik Howard, Pepper Johnson, Greg Jackson.

slipknottin
06-07-2012, 05:59 PM
Giants have way more talent at LB than people here seem to think.

Boley is an excellent player, Kiwi was one of the best run stuffing LBs in the entire league.

J Will was a rapidly improving rookie who is extremely athletic.

K RIvers when healthy was a very good player.

slipknottin
06-07-2012, 06:01 PM
In 86 our d-line, corners and safeties were outstanding

Very much disagree. The secondary was very average.

CWeb is the best CB the giants have ever had.

burier
06-07-2012, 06:04 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising. Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs. lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise. Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud. People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.</P>


You just lost all your Morehead brownie points you earned with the "Cheerleaders with thickness" comment.</P>


You have to be nuts.* This sdefense came together in a huge was at the end of the season and the playoffs.</P>


No reason we won't build on that this season and improve even more with players coming back.</P>


Silly point of view on this one my friend.</P>

HA...I honestly knew you'd renege on the brownie points so I never counted them.

The defense came together at the end of the season but it doesn't erase the entire season when you're in an evaluation process.

Fact is we won 9 games last season. Unless we expect the EAST to have another unprecedentedly poor season we're going to have to win more than 9 games this season to make the playoffs.

Had a great playoff run but overall tons of room for improvement.

nhpgiantsfan
06-07-2012, 06:11 PM
Think about it, we have probowl level talent at almost every position on our defense and probably the deepest CB depth in the league.

Except for maybe the 86 defense and that is mainly just because of LT / Carson / Banks.

Overall, I think this defense has more potential.

I can't wait for this season!

Pro bowl level talent at every position? Who other than our DE's and Webster are potential pro bowl players? I guess our safeties have a shot but that's about it.

slipknottin
06-07-2012, 06:13 PM
Pro bowl level talent at every position? Who other than our DE's and Webster are potential pro bowl players? I guess our safeties have a shot but that's about it.

KP is definately a probowl talent, Rolle already made 2 of them.

Linval had flashes last season where he looked like he may eventually be attending a probowl.

giantsfan420
06-07-2012, 06:27 PM
If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."
Why didn't they play well early in the season? Maybe because they were constantly readjusting to new personnel - personnel which previously had not been prepared to start? Maybe because they were fielding adifferent lineup every other week?

They lost players five levels deep in the secondary - that's unheard of.

They had to force low-ranked rookies into the starting lineup.

They had to sign someone off of his couch.

Why did they turn it on in the playoffs? Maybe because they finally got healthy and found some stability?


I don't know how you can say they "weren't all that hurt" last season. You're arguing a fact.

I can say that because...I just told you why.

We actually lost only TWO starters to IR last season and one of them was a marginal starter to begin with. How can you argue that fact?

Our secondary consisted of 3 first round draft choices and 1 second round draft choice. They were all healthy all season too. (I think KP missed 1 game.)

Tuck and Osi missed time but (Convieniently) never missed time at the same time and we had a dominant player emerge in JPP. The DTS were healthy all season. (Again Austin doesn't count we have no idea how effective he would have been even if he didnt hurt himself.)

Then you look at the linebackers. Boley didn't miss an extended period of time and Kiwi was healthy all season. Herz got hurt later in the season but we brought in Chase who was acutally an upgrade.

We had a long list of scrub players on IR...so what?

U do realize that it was scientifically proven that we had the most missed games/injuries to key players since the winless lions right? Ur dismissal of the injuries is insane. The two prior teams with similar injuries to key players (starters and relevant depth) were some of the worst teams (one was even the worst team in nfl history going winless) in league history.

Manstache
06-07-2012, 07:17 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.the defense played dominant down the stretch all the way to a strap, so u can bet we wont deviate from what brought us to the promised land on that side of the ball. who did we lose? ross, bernard, grant and goff? ha ha!! but we come rite back with tt, shaun rodgers, marvin austin, hosely, and keith rivers. not to mention the confidence of knowing that our scheme DOES work and brought us the ultimate results. this time around with better personnel. my only concern is oline, which cant possibly get any worse

giantsforce
06-07-2012, 07:54 PM
On paper, the Cowgirls and the Egirls have been winning the SB the past 10 years. Oh wait, having the best on paper doesn't count, does it?

Morehead State
06-07-2012, 10:43 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising. Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs. lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise. Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud. People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.</P>


You just lost all your Morehead brownie points you earned with the "Cheerleaders with thickness" comment.</P>


You have to be nuts. This sdefense came together in a huge was at the end of the season and the playoffs.</P>


No reason we won't build on that this season and improve even more with players coming back.</P>


Silly point of view on this one my friend.</P>


HA...I honestly knew you'd renege on the brownie points so I never counted them. The defense came together at the end of the season but it doesn't erase the entire season when you're in an evaluation process. Fact is we won 9 games last season. Unless we expect the EAST to have another unprecedentedly poor season we're going to have to win more than 9 games this season to make the playoffs. Had a great playoff run but overall tons of room for improvement.</P>


It DOES erase it because we won a SB.</P>


We ended the season as a dominent defense. There is no reason we won't pick up where we left off.</P>

gumby742
06-07-2012, 10:53 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising. Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs. lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise. Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud. People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.</P>


You just lost all your Morehead brownie points you earned with the "Cheerleaders with thickness" comment.</P>


You have to be nuts.* This sdefense came together in a huge was at the end of the season and the playoffs.</P>


No reason we won't build on that this season and improve even more with players coming back.</P>


Silly point of view on this one my friend.</P>


HA...I honestly knew you'd renege on the brownie points so I never counted them. The defense came together at the end of the season but it doesn't erase the entire season when you're in an evaluation process. Fact is we won 9 games last season. Unless we expect the EAST to have another unprecedentedly poor season we're going to have to win more than 9 games this season to make the playoffs. Had a great playoff run but overall tons of room for improvement.</P>


It* DOES erase it because we won a SB.</P>


We ended the season as a dominent defense.* There is no reason we won't pick up where we left off.</P>

To be fair, to say it was a fluke is just as valid.

I don't know if Fewell is a bad co-ordinator , but I'm fairly certain that Spags would have had at least a middle of the road defense last year - with the injuries and all.

The fact that our defense was utter rubbish - for most of the regular season doesn't sit well. Would you expect a defense with JPP, Canty, Joseph, KP, Webster and Rolle to be dead last??!! That's just ridiculous.

miken609
06-07-2012, 11:30 PM
Think about it, we have probowl level talent at almost every position on our defense and probably the deepest CB depth in the league.

Except for maybe the 86 defense and that is mainly just because of LT / Carson / Banks.

Overall, I think this defense has more potential.

I can't wait for this season!
Totally AGREE! GIANTS RULE

NUMBER ONE! NUMBER ONE! NUMBER ONE!

LETS GO GIANTS

are you ALL IN?

because I am

....

I am what????


....



I am






<font color="#0000ff"><font size="6">ALL IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font></font>

buddy33
06-07-2012, 11:41 PM
It has been posted many times that the Giants defense was the 3rd hardest hit units over the past decade. The 2 teams that where worse where a bad Buffalo team and the 0-16 Lions.

They where clearly a better unit at the end of the regular season and the post season. What was the difference? They where at their healthiest.

Flip Empty
06-07-2012, 11:50 PM
The fact that our defense was utter rubbish - for most of the regular season doesn't sit well. Would you expect a defense with JPP, Canty, Joseph, KP, Webster and Rolle to be dead last??!! That's just ridiculous.
What's ridiculous is people being unable to see why that defense was such "utter rubbish", and why it was able to turn it around late in the season.
Quit looking at the averaged-out regular season stats and judge the team on what you saw it do.

You saw that "utter rubbish" defense harass the Jets and Cowboys, shut out the Falcons, shut down the league's top passing attack and deny Tom Brady another Super Bowl.
That's the last you saw of the defense so why remember it as the patchwork mess from three months prior?

gumby742
06-08-2012, 12:09 AM
The fact that our defense was utter rubbish - for most of the regular season doesn't sit well. Would you expect a defense with JPP, Canty, Joseph, KP, Webster and Rolle to be dead last??!! That's just ridiculous.
What's ridiculous is people being unable to see why that defense was such "utter rubbish", and why it was able to turn it around late in the season.
Quit looking at the averaged-out regular season stats and judge the team on what you saw it do.

You saw that "utter rubbish" defense harass the Jets and Cowboys, shut out the Falcons, shut down the league's top passing attack and deny Tom Brady another Super Bowl.
That's the last you saw of the defense so why remember it as the patchwork mess from three months prior?

Because winning the SB doesn't make problems disappear. Our defense was pretty terrible for most of the regular season. That's fact.

Do you think that a defense with JPP, Joseph, Canty, Webster, Rolle, and KP have any business being close to the worst in the league?

And yes, I'm putting this at the feet of Perry Fewell.

gumby742
06-08-2012, 12:15 AM
It has been posted many times that the Giants defense was the 3rd hardest hit units over the past decade. The 2 teams that where worse where a bad Buffalo team and the 0-16 Lions.

They where clearly a better unit at the end of the regular season and the post season. What was the difference? They where at their healthiest.

I really don't think the difference in defense personnel was all the different between the beginning and the end of the regular season- overall talent wise. Even when Tuck was healthy and all that, our defense was still pretty terrible. And when Tuck was hurt, Osi came back to compensate.

Either way, the difference between the beginning and end of the season was huge. And what were the differences? And do they warrant such a huge difference?

Most of our injuries happened before the season started. You can't blame injuries for poor performance when the defense was able to perform admirably at the end, with those same injuries still there.

chasjay
06-08-2012, 12:17 AM
The defense certainly struggled a lot last year - the defense would have looked a little better statistically (not a lot, but a little) if we had been able to convert a few more 3rd and short plays on offense. It's that "team" thing. Hopefully, both of those areas will be some improved this year.

yoeddy
06-08-2012, 07:20 AM
In 86 our d-line, corners and safeties were outstanding

Very much disagree. The secondary was very average.

CWeb is the best CB the giants have ever had.

Nope...Mark Collins was the best CB the Giants ever had...

Roswell777
06-08-2012, 07:48 AM
In 86 our d-line, corners and safeties were outstanding

Very much disagree. The secondary was very average.

CWeb is the best CB the giants have ever had.

Nope...Mark Collins was the best CB the Giants ever had...

Agreed. And I'm sure Jerry Rice would have a lot of compliments for Collins too. Collins played him very well. But, that being said, the rules were different with respect to contact in those days so we will never really know.

Also agree that in '86 our secondary was average. Patterson and Williams, Hill, and in the playoffs, Welch. Our secondary was far superior in SB XXV.

buddy33
06-08-2012, 08:56 AM
The personnel at the end of the season was absolutely the healthiest they where all year and that was still without a number of players.

Even when Tuck was healthy the defense was terrible? Tuck said that he was bad last year while nursing injuries. It was not until the Jets game that he said he was finally healthy. From that game on the defense was better. Osi didn't compensate for Tuck because Tuck is the more complete player. I like Osi, but he is not Tuck. Also, it's hard to compensate for Tuck being injured when you are out 8 games.

The difference between the beginning of the season and the end was health. At the very end and in the post season they had their entire DL playing healthy and very well. More pressure on the QB made the secondary look better and when Prince got a chance to play in the post season he was very good. J Williams got better as the year went on. He was a rookie in a lock out year.

Take the Green Bay game for example. In the 1st game Tuck was not healthy. He is an elite DE in this league. You don't just replace him. I don't think Osi played that game. So one DE hurt and the other not playing. Boley said he was not 100% in that game coming back from pulling his hamstring. I believe that they lost KP for the second half of that game. It was the 1st game back for Chase. J Williams was still learning and Prince was playing with no experience.

Now take a look at the playoff game. All those players where healthy and playing with more experience. You don't see the difference?

yoeddy
06-08-2012, 01:25 PM
In 86 our d-line, corners and safeties were outstanding

Very much disagree. The secondary was very average.

CWeb is the best CB the giants have ever had.

Nope...Mark Collins was the best CB the Giants ever had...

Agreed. And I'm sure Jerry Rice would have a lot of compliments for Collins too. Collins played him very well. But, that being said, the rules were different with respect to contact in those days so we will never really know.

Also agree that in '86 our secondary was average. Patterson and Williams, Hill, and in the playoffs, Welch. Our secondary was far superior in SB XXV.

As Bill Parcells said back in the 80s, "Mark Collins is the only cornerback who could cover Jerry Rice."

pino
06-08-2012, 01:31 PM
The "best defense we've ever had" is a pretty high bar. We've had some good ones.

burier
06-08-2012, 02:19 PM
If you're going to use injuries as an excuse prepare to spend your entire time as fan making excuses.

When its all laid out we really weren't all that hurt last season. We just didn't play well. We definately turned it on in the playoffs and I know alot of people feel like winning the SB means we can ignore all of our shortcumming but I"m gonna side with Eli on this one

"We were 9-7 last year."
Why didn't they play well early in the season? Maybe because they were constantly readjusting to new personnel - personnel which previously had not been prepared to start? Maybe because they were fielding adifferent lineup every other week?

They lost players five levels deep in the secondary - that's unheard of.

They had to force low-ranked rookies into the starting lineup.

They had to sign someone off of his couch.

Why did they turn it on in the playoffs? Maybe because they finally got healthy and found some stability?


I don't know how you can say they "weren't all that hurt" last season. You're arguing a fact.

I can say that because...I just told you why.

We actually lost only TWO starters to IR last season and one of them was a marginal starter to begin with. How can you argue that fact?

Our secondary consisted of 3 first round draft choices and 1 second round draft choice. They were all healthy all season too. (I think KP missed 1 game.)

Tuck and Osi missed time but (Convieniently) never missed time at the same time and we had a dominant player emerge in JPP. The DTS were healthy all season. (Again Austin doesn't count we have no idea how effective he would have been even if he didnt hurt himself.)

Then you look at the linebackers. Boley didn't miss an extended period of time and Kiwi was healthy all season. Herz got hurt later in the season but we brought in Chase who was acutally an upgrade.

We had a long list of scrub players on IR...so what?

U do realize that it was scientifically proven that we had the most missed games/injuries to key players since the winless lions right? Ur dismissal of the injuries is insane. The two prior teams with similar injuries to key players (starters and relevant depth) were some of the worst teams (one was even the worst team in nfl history going winless) in league history.

We've already covered that the majority of the IRed players weren't starters.

We've already covered that T2 is unlikely to be back to form and thustly will provide no reliefe.

So I guess by your logic we've got a built in excuse for this season as well.

burier
06-08-2012, 02:26 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising. Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs. lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise. Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud. People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.</P>


You just lost all your Morehead brownie points you earned with the "Cheerleaders with thickness" comment.</P>


You have to be nuts.* This sdefense came together in a huge was at the end of the season and the playoffs.</P>


No reason we won't build on that this season and improve even more with players coming back.</P>


Silly point of view on this one my friend.</P>


HA...I honestly knew you'd renege on the brownie points so I never counted them. The defense came together at the end of the season but it doesn't erase the entire season when you're in an evaluation process. Fact is we won 9 games last season. Unless we expect the EAST to have another unprecedentedly poor season we're going to have to win more than 9 games this season to make the playoffs. Had a great playoff run but overall tons of room for improvement.</P>


It* DOES erase it because we won a SB.</P>


We ended the season as a dominent defense.* There is no reason we won't pick up where we left off.</P>

Oh I see. We're presumed to keep on rolling. I guess that's why so many teams Repeat in the NFL.

Fact of the matter is that if we truly want to repeat we need to evaluate the totality of the season and not break it down to a sample size of 4 games.

Are people trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing with me. If you asked Reese, or Coughlin, Or Eli or anybody in the organization they all tell you that our Win/loss record and our Defensive RANK, our inability to run the ball effectively, Our Inability to protect the QB all need to be addressed despite the fact that we won the superbowl.

G-Man67
06-08-2012, 02:27 PM
absolutely, obviously staying healthy is the key, when we got healthy last year our Defence tormented our opponents</P>


as far as the LBs ... well Boley is a very solid player and over 60% of our defensive snaps were nickel ... meaning that only 1 other LB is usually on the field besides Boley</P>


and there are a number of options with Kiwi, Rivers, J. Williams, C. Blackburn, Herzlich, etc.</P>


now with Grant gone our Big Nickel (3 Safeties) also might be done ... you might see a J. Williams playing in the Grant role and a Rivers playing in the J. Williams role from last season ... so more LB snaps could be in store this year</P>


as far as DBs ... C-Web is very solid ... K-Phil has made a great recovery from the micro-fracture surgery and i think he is in a position to have a big year ... really the keys will be TTs health and Prince's ongoing development</P>

burier
06-08-2012, 02:29 PM
absolutely, obviously staying healthy is the key, when we got healthy last year our Defence tormented our opponents</P>


as far as the LBs ... well Boley is a very solid player and over 60% of our defensive snaps were nickel ... meaning that only 1 other LB is usually on the field besides Boley</P>


and there are a number of options with Kiwi, Rivers, J. Williams, C. Blackburn, Herzlich, etc.</P>


now with Grant gone our Big Nickel (3 Safeties) also might be done ... you might see a J. Williams playing in the Grant role and a Rivers playing in the J. Williams role from last season ... so more LB snaps could be in store this year</P>


as far as DBs ... C-Web is very solid ... K-Phil has made a great recovery from the micro-fracture surgery and i think he is in a position to have a big year ... really the keys will be TTs health and Prince's ongoing development</P>

Can someone please explain to me who we got back that makes everyone keep saying "We got healthy" We did we get back? Osi?

buddy33
06-08-2012, 02:30 PM
In a passing league you need depth. They had none in the secondary. The difference this year is they have Prince who will probably be the #2 CB and TT can play a hybrid role. Hey lost KP for a short period and it just so happens those where their worst performances in the secondary.

Like Goff or not he was a starter. Boley missed some time and was not 100% when he came back.

Their DL was dealing with an injured Tuck for 14 regular season games and Osi missed 8 games.

buddy33
06-08-2012, 02:36 PM
Who did they get back? A healthy Tuck, Osi, and Prince to name a few. By that time Chase was also in better form as was J Williams. Boley was back to speed and so was KP.

burier
06-08-2012, 02:48 PM
Who did they get back? A healthy Tuck, Osi, and Prince to name a few. By that time Chase was also in better form as was JWilliams. Boley was back to speed and so was KP.

The homerizm that is going right now is phenominal.

We got Osi back from a sprain. The defense was terrible earlier in the season with him in the lineup.

How many games did Boley and KP miss combined. 2? 3??? The defense was terrible with both of those guys in the lineup.

Prince? He was rookie and when he got in the lineup he was getting toasted. Actaully got rewarded for getting toasted with what I believe was his only INT on a poorly thrown ball

Chase wasn't hurt he was sitting on his couch.

And I don't even know what your claim that Jwill was in better form has to do with the team getting healthy.

And please don't get me started on Tuck.


The fact is the same guys who won the Superbowl are the same guys who stunk the joint up for most of the season.

G-Man67
06-08-2012, 02:49 PM
Can someone please explain to me who we got back that makes everyone keep saying "We got healthy" We did we get back? Osi?</P>


Boley was out for a month ... lost 3 out of 4 during that stretch</P>


Osi was out for what, 6 games?</P>


but the biggest one of allwas Tuck .... yes, Tuck was out there, but he was only a shell of himself</P>


before the season Goff and TT went down</P>


Prince didnt play most of the season</P>


our pass rush is our defence and as great as JPP was ... he couldnt do it all ... when Tuck and Osi started doing their thing, we were once again a feared defence</P>

buddy33
06-08-2012, 02:56 PM
So you don't think here is a difference between a healthy Tuck and an injured Tuck? Yeah he was playing, bu he was hurt.

Osi missed half the season.

You completely dismiss the value of Boley and KP. The proof that all these guys being healhy was the difference was the playoff game against Green Bay. In fact the entire post season is a clear example.

Prince was a rookie in a lock out year and was injured for months. He looked lost for a while but was lplocking guys down in the post season.

I know Chase and J Williams where both healthy but Goff being lost for the season and Boley missing a few games where the reason why they where needed and Chase picked up more as the season went on as did J Williams as a rookie.

burier
06-08-2012, 02:56 PM
Can someone please explain to me who we got back that makes everyone keep saying "We got healthy" We did we get back? Osi?</P>


Boley was out for a month ... lost 3 out of 4 during that stretch</P>


Osi was out for what, 6 games?</P>


but the biggest one of all*was Tuck .... yes, Tuck was out there, but he was only a shell of himself</P>


before the season Goff and TT went down</P>


Prince didnt play most of the season</P>


our pass rush is our defence and as great as JPP was ... he couldnt do it all ... when Tuck and Osi started doing their thing, we were once again a feared defence</P>

first of all Michael Boley missed 2 games last season.

See above answer to the Osi comment.

See above answer to prince comment.

Goff and T2 were on IR how could they help us "get healthy"

Tuck was a shell of himself...Fine but was out there and he said himself that he got a pepp talk "From a friend" wich resulted in him playing better. Had nothing to do with health.

G-Man67
06-08-2012, 03:02 PM
first of all Michael Boley missed 2 games last season. See above answer to the Osi comment. See above answer to prince comment. Goff and T2 were on IR how could they help us "get healthy" Tuck was a shell of himself...Fine but was out there and he said himself that he got a pepp talk "From a friend" wich resulted in him playing better. Had nothing to do with health.</P>


well with Tuck it was body 1st, then head, i'll give you that, but whatever got him going seemed to make all the difference in the world</P>


he's the leader on D and our D suffered tremendously when he wasn't playing well ... made all the difference in the world</P>


if we have Tuck, JPP and Osi all going from day 1 ... it's scary, believe me no team looks forward to dealing with that and throw Kiwi into the mix as well ... that's 4 top pass rushers</P>

burier
06-08-2012, 03:04 PM
So you don't think here is a difference between a healthy Tuck and an injured Tuck? Yeah he was playing, bu he was hurt.

Osi missed half the season.

You completely dismiss the value of Boley and KP. The proof that all these guys being healhy was the difference was the playoff game against Green Bay. In fact the entire post season is a clear example.

Prince was a rookie in a lock out year and was injured for months. He looked lost for a while but was lplocking guys down in the post season.

I know Chase and J Williams where both healthy but Goff being lost for the season and Boley missing a few games where the reason why they where needed and Chase picked up more as the season went on as did J Williams as a rookie.

Is this the Twilight Zone???

Kenny Phillips played in 15 games

Michael Boley played in 14 games

You're saying the 3 games they missed is what tanked the Defense all season and them coming back is was made us win the Superbowl???

So lets stipulate that Tuck suddenly got "Healthy" What people should be saying is the difference between Us sucking on D and winning the Superbowl is a healthy Tuck. (Which I can't even say out loud without pissing myself in laughter.)

No one is arguing that the team played alot better in the playoffs...I'm just trying to let you guys know....by and large the same guys who stunk it up in the reg season also won the SB.

Health had nothing to do with it.

buddy33
06-08-2012, 03:11 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

jakegibbs
06-08-2012, 03:12 PM
I'm glad people have finally stopped whinging about the lack of a "stud" LB'er. This unit looks really promising.

Just need to bubble-wrap those ACLs.

lol. That unit shows very little promise. Anything short of a total implosion will be a pleasant surprise.

Our only hope is Rivers somehow playing like a stud.

People are being delusional. We were one of the worst defenses in the league last season and did very little to upgrade the personel.

With Boley being the best tackler in the league and Kiwi be one of the best run stopping LBs in the league I don't see how you have come to that conclusion.

How'd that saying go.. "your are what they thought you were"... NYG's defense was ranked either 31, or 32 in the league at the end of the regular season. Playoffs you can thank the offense & the all time league breaking 4th quarter TD passes for making the playoffs. Not the D. What significant upgrades did they make that I'm missing?

G-Man67
06-08-2012, 03:12 PM
and don't forget guys can improve ... Prince obviously, K-Phil is now far removed from the micro-fracture stuff ... maybe Rolle will be a bit more disciplined knowing that he can trust his teammates</P>


we added Rivers ... J. Williams has a year under his belt ... Prince will have a full offseason ... TT is back</P>


L. Joseph</P>


JPP - i know hard to imagine him being much better, but</P>


we drafted a CB in the 3rd, who could contribute</P>


then we have some guys like Marvin Austin that could become part of a rotation</P>


again, for me, just gotta watch out for the injuries</P>


</P>

giantsfan420
06-08-2012, 03:13 PM
The personnel at the end of the season was absolutely the healthiest they where all year and that was still without a number of players.

Even when Tuck was healthy the defense was terrible? Tuck said that he was bad last year while nursing injuries. It was not until the Jets game that he said he was finally healthy. From that game on the defense was better. Osi didn't compensate for Tuck because Tuck is the more complete player. I like Osi, but he is not Tuck. Also, it's hard to compensate for Tuck being injured when you are out 8 games.

The difference between the beginning of the season and the end was health. At the very end and in the post season they had their entire DL playing healthy and very well. More pressure on the QB made the secondary look better and when Prince got a chance to play in the post season he was very good. J Williams got better as the year went on. He was a rookie in a lock out year.

Take the Green Bay game for example. In the 1st game Tuck was not healthy. He is an elite DE in this league. You don't just replace him. I don't think Osi played that game. So one DE hurt and the other not playing. Boley said he was not 100% in that game coming back from pulling his hamstring. I believe that they lost KP for the second half of that game. It was the 1st game back for Chase. J Williams was still learning and Prince was playing with no experience.

Now take a look at the playoff game. All those players where healthy and playing with more experience. You don't see the difference?

Actually tuck didnt suddenly get healthy vs the jets. He said he had a talk with tc about the mentality/mindset tuck had. Imo, with tuck, it was as much mental as it was physical. I agree with everything else tho and we shared the same sentiment abojt the bills and winless lions team. Except i noticed u said those teams had worse injury situation when we actually had it worse which actually goes a long way in showing the d actually performed better than most understand esp in that run we had

burier
06-08-2012, 03:26 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

Well guess what...in the NFL everyone is hurting....so we might as well start excusing poor defense right now in June.

As far as KP and Boley. They're good players of course the team is going to be worse with them out of the lineup. The point is the team played bad when they were in the lineup.

As far as secondary depth..We were so damn healthy in our secondary with didn't need depth. We trotted our starters out every week but 1 game when KP was hurt. Yet inexplicably people keep talking about how bad our injury situation was.

giantsfan420
06-08-2012, 03:37 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

Well guess what...in the NFL everyone is hurting....so we might as well start excusing poor defense right now in June.

As far as KP and Boley. They're good players of course the team is going to be worse with them out of the lineup. The point is the team played bad when they were in the lineup.

As far as secondary depth..We were so damn healthy in our secondary with didn't need depth. We trotted our starters out every week but 1 game when KP was hurt. Yet inexplicably people keep talking about how bad our injury situation was.

U just proved ur incorrect. Tt, prince, and almost all our depth missed a ton of time.

OUR D/team HAD THE MOST MISSED GAMES BY STARTERS/KEY DEPTH THE PAST DECADE. The two other teams that were close, a terrible bills team and the winless lions. Like i dunno how u can overlook that. The elias sports bureau and other research firms reported it, its fact. How does that not weigh in on ur reasoning?

buddy33
06-08-2012, 03:38 PM
Right, injuries happen to every team. They just don't happen as much as they did to the Giants defensive unit and that's a fact.

They where 6-2 when Boley was hurt in the 49ers game. They then lost the next 4 games. I believe Osi missed all of if not most of those games as well. Tuck was not healthy. Then they lost KP for a short period of time. So the worst they looked all season was when they where hurting the most.

giantsfan420
06-08-2012, 03:38 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

Well guess what...in the NFL everyone is hurting....so we might as well start excusing poor defense right now in June.

As far as KP and Boley. They're good players of course the team is going to be worse with them out of the lineup. The point is the team played bad when they were in the lineup.

As far as secondary depth..We were so damn healthy in our secondary with didn't need depth. We trotted our starters out every week but 1 game when KP was hurt. Yet inexplicably people keep talking about how bad our injury situation was.

U just proved ur incorrect. Tt, prince, and almost all our depth missed a ton of time.

OUR D/team HAD THE MOST MISSED GAMES BY STARTERS/KEY DEPTH THE PAST DECADE. The two other teams that were close, a terrible bills team and the winless lions. Like i dunno how u can overlook that. The elias sports bureau and other research firms reported it, its fact. How does that not weigh in on ur reasoning?

And that stat was based on starters and key depth/role players...not 7th string placeholders

buddy33
06-08-2012, 03:45 PM
They where so healthy with their secondary depth? Lol. Seriously. They lost 2 guys for the season in the same pre season game. They lost their 1st round pick in camp for more than half the season. As the season went on they lost more depth.

burier
06-08-2012, 03:58 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

Well guess what...in the NFL everyone is hurting....so we might as well start excusing poor defense right now in June.

As far as KP and Boley. They're good players of course the team is going to be worse with them out of the lineup. The point is the team played bad when they were in the lineup.

As far as secondary depth..We were so damn healthy in our secondary with didn't need depth. We trotted our starters out every week but 1 game when KP was hurt. Yet inexplicably people keep talking about how bad our injury situation was.

U just proved ur incorrect. Tt, prince, and almost all our depth missed a ton of time.

OUR D/team HAD THE MOST MISSED GAMES BY STARTERS/KEY DEPTH THE PAST DECADE. The two other teams that were close, a terrible bills team and the winless lions. Like i dunno how u can overlook that. The elias sports bureau and other research firms reported it, its fact. How does that not weigh in on ur reasoning?

And that stat was based on starters and key depth/role players...not 7th string placeholders

0_o

For the love of god stop throwing that stat around. It means nothing. Yes we had depth on IR but our week 1 starters were healthy all season by and large.

Who gives a damn about depth being hurt if the starters are healthy?

Now my question is this:

Why the hell would anyone suggest that we have the best defense ever when this same defense was ranked at the bottom of the league?

Is it because we're getting T2 back? Hate to break it to you but he was never as good as people tried to make him out to be and his injury history is beyond concerning at this point.

Is it because if Marvin Austin? I certainly hope he turns out to be a stud but we have to wait and see.

Is it this Rivers kid?

What the hell is it?

If we can trott out as many week 1 starters out on a weekly basis as we did last season I'd say we're in pretty good shape.

buddy33
06-08-2012, 04:00 PM
The starters where not all healthy for he entire season. Tuck was hurting all year, Osi missed half the season, they lost TT for the season, they lost Goff for the season, and they had other starters miss time during the season. Saying they where healthy all year is just simply wrong.

burier
06-08-2012, 04:08 PM
Right, injuries happen to every team. They just don't happen as much as they did to the Giants defensive unit and that's a fact.

They where 6-2 when Boley was hurt in the 49ers game. They then lost the next 4 games. I believe Osi missed all of if not most of those games as well. Tuck was not healthy. Then they lost KP for a short period of time. So the worst they looked all season was when they where hurting the most.

BOLEY ONLY MISSED TWO GAMES!

And do you realize the majority of the games Osi missed were missed while we were amassing a 6-2 record.

We didnt go on a 4 game slide because any 1 or 2 players were missing. We sucked as a team.

WE LOST KP FOR ONE GAME...stop using vauge terms to muddy the issue

and I'm so sick of hearing about Tuck's damn health when HE SAID HIMSELF that he basically started playing when he felt like it. Excusing tucks play because of his health is like excusing David Diehl's play because he sucks.

We were ranked 31 or 32.,..you don't get that rank because a couple people were banged up. You get that Rank from not playing well. No excuses.

burier
06-08-2012, 04:14 PM
The starters where not all healthy for he entire season. Tuck was hurting all year, Osi missed half the season, they lost TT for the season, they lost Goff for the season, and they had other starters miss time during the season. Saying they where healthy all year is just simply wrong.

I don't care about "hurting" players. I don't becuase everyone is hurting. If you step on the field you have to be accountable for your play.

Osi replacement turned out to be the best DE in the league but you want to use Osi missing games as an excuse? I don't get it.

Goff and T2 were on IR

Goff is off the team.

T2 will not help us

Are we gonna use Goff and T2 as an excuse this season too??

As far as guys where were starting for this team week 1 of the season...those guys didn't miss much time. Thats all there is to it.

TrueBlue@NYC
06-08-2012, 04:18 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

Well guess what...in the NFL everyone is hurting....so we might as well start excusing poor defense right now in June.

As far as KP and Boley. They're good players of course the team is going to be worse with them out of the lineup. The point is the team played bad when they were in the lineup.

As far as secondary depth..We were so damn healthy in our secondary with didn't need depth. We trotted our starters out every week but 1 game when KP was hurt. Yet inexplicably people keep talking about how bad our injury situation was.

U just proved ur incorrect. Tt, prince, and almost all our depth missed a ton of time.

OUR D/team HAD THE MOST MISSED GAMES BY STARTERS/KEY DEPTH THE PAST DECADE. The two other teams that were close, a terrible bills team and the winless lions. Like i dunno how u can overlook that. The elias sports bureau and other research firms reported it, its fact. How does that not weigh in on ur reasoning?

And that stat was based on starters and key depth/role players...not 7th string placeholders

0_o

For the love of god stop throwing that stat around. It means nothing. Yes we had depth on IR but our week 1 starters were healthy all season by and large.

Who gives a damn about depth being hurt if the starters are healthy?

Now my question is this:

Why the hell would anyone suggest that we have the best defense ever when this same defense was ranked at the bottom of the league?

Is it because we're getting T2 back? Hate to break it to you but he was never as good as people tried to make him out to be and his injury history is beyond concerning at this point.

Is it because if Marvin Austin? I certainly hope he turns out to be a stud but we have to wait and see.

Is it this Rivers kid?

What the hell is it?

If we can trott out as many week 1 starters out on a weekly basis as we did last season I'd say we're in pretty good shape.

Missing all of your secondary depth makes a huge difference when you're forced to play your staring FS at nickle back.

You realize how tough it is for a defense to play with only three healthy CBs.? And one of those three was a street FA. That makes a huge impact on your team.

Also makes a huge impact when you don't have a legitamit player at MLB and two of the top three players at your most prestigious position on D (DE) are missing games and playing hurt.

And the fact that we correct those things with Prince coming back, signing blackburn off the street to play MLB and Osi & Tuck getting healthy are why you saw the defense you did at the end of the year and into the playoffs.

burier
06-08-2012, 04:52 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

Well guess what...in the NFL everyone is hurting....so we might as well start excusing poor defense right now in June.

As far as KP and Boley. They're good players of course the team is going to be worse with them out of the lineup. The point is the team played bad when they were in the lineup.

As far as secondary depth..We were so damn healthy in our secondary with didn't need depth. We trotted our starters out every week but 1 game when KP was hurt. Yet inexplicably people keep talking about how bad our injury situation was.

U just proved ur incorrect. Tt, prince, and almost all our depth missed a ton of time.

OUR D/team HAD THE MOST MISSED GAMES BY STARTERS/KEY DEPTH THE PAST DECADE. The two other teams that were close, a terrible bills team and the winless lions. Like i dunno how u can overlook that. The elias sports bureau and other research firms reported it, its fact. How does that not weigh in on ur reasoning?

And that stat was based on starters and key depth/role players...not 7th string placeholders

0_o

For the love of god stop throwing that stat around. It means nothing. Yes we had depth on IR but our week 1 starters were healthy all season by and large.

Who gives a damn about depth being hurt if the starters are healthy?

Now my question is this:

Why the hell would anyone suggest that we have the best defense ever when this same defense was ranked at the bottom of the league?

Is it because we're getting T2 back? Hate to break it to you but he was never as good as people tried to make him out to be and his injury history is beyond concerning at this point.

Is it because if Marvin Austin? I certainly hope he turns out to be a stud but we have to wait and see.

Is it this Rivers kid?

What the hell is it?

If we can trott out as many week 1 starters out on a weekly basis as we did last season I'd say we're in pretty good shape.

Missing all of your secondary depth makes a huge difference when you're forced to play your staring FS at nickle back.

You realize how tough it is for a defense to play with only three healthy CBs.? And one of those three was a street FA. That makes a huge impact on your team.

Also makes a huge impact when you don't have a legitamit player at MLB and two of the top three players at your most prestigious position on D (DE) are missing games and playing hurt.

And the fact that we correct those things with Prince coming back, signing blackburn off the street to play MLB and Osi & Tuck getting healthy are why you saw the defense you did at the end of the year and into the playoffs.

I'll say it again. Prepare to make that excuse for all your years. Guys are gonna miss games and guys are gonna play hurt every single season.

At MLB did didn't have a legitimate player on the roster. Injuries didn't matter there.

I'm telling you our secondary consisted of completely healthy first and second round draft picks...good players. So what if we had to use a probowler at Nickle back that excuses being ranked last in the league?

What happens if Tuck decides he doesn't feel like playing again this year? Is that an excuse? And I keep telling people that the team stunk the joint up with Osi in the lineup and with osi out of the lineup.

Boley is being called the best tackler in football (missed only 2 games) and Kiwi I'm told is one of the best run stuffing backers in the league yet we couldn't stop the run,

We couldn't stop the run because Osi was hurt?

I'll grant you that Prince turned out to be a pleasant surprise down the stretch but lets not act like the whole D didn't play better during the run.

No matter how you spin it there no excuse for the talent we had ON THE FIELD to rank that low.

buddy33
06-08-2012, 04:55 PM
Tuck is one of the best DE's in the league. When one of the best players at any position is hurt the team suffers. When that player is healthy the team does better. Not that hard to figure out. Yeah he had to get his head on right, but as late as the 1st Dallas game he was still hurting.

During the 4 game slide, Boley was lost. He was hurt in the 49ers game which actually was probably the reason they lost he game. He missed the next 2 games and was not 100% when he came back against Green Bay.

Osi was also missing games in the middle of the year. He only came back healthy the very last game of the season.

As far as rankings go the difference between a top 10 defense and where the Giants where ranked is about 40 yards per game. Also, they played the best offenses in the NFL while being the most injured unit in the NFL. Those are facts.

buddy33
06-08-2012, 05:01 PM
Talent on the field? When healthy they are a good unit. When 2 of our DE's are hurt on and off all year, your Safety is playing the slot because of lack of depth due of injuries, and you have issues at LB where you are using 3 different rookies in a lock out season yo are bound to have some struggles.

slipknottin
06-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Nope...Mark Collins was the best CB the Giants ever had...

I dont think Collins is anywhere near as good as Webster.

G-Man67
06-08-2012, 05:20 PM
Nope...Mark Collins was the best CB the Giants ever had... I dont think Collins is anywhere near as good as Webster.</P>


Mark was a true stud at CB ... he could hold his own vs. the likes of Jerry Rice</P>


hard to compare him to Webby b/c the game is so different now ... Mark was great against the run and very physical at the LOS</P>


Webbysticks to these guys like their shadow</P>


Collins would re-route guys and throw off the timing and again such a solid tackler ... not that Webby is a slouch at tackling</P>

slipknottin
06-08-2012, 05:22 PM
Mark was a true stud at CB ... he could hold his own vs. the likes of Jerry Rice<

Webster is a true stud too, holds his own against any receiver in the league.

G-Man67
06-08-2012, 05:28 PM
Mark was a true stud at CB ... he could hold his own vs. the likes of Jerry Rice&lt; Webster is a true stud too, holds his own against any receiver in the league.</P>


oh hey i totally agree ... i give Mark a slight edge, but Webby is still playing</P>


and credit to both of them for not being all about the trash talk ... i mean Revis is great, but does he ever shut his trap?</P>

burier
06-08-2012, 05:30 PM
Talent on the field? When healthy they are a good unit. When 2 of our DE's are hurt on and off all year, your Safety is playing the slot because of lack of depth due of injuries, and you have issues at LB where you are using 3 different rookies in a lock out season yo are bound to have some struggles.

So what you're saying is this: "Every single season we have a built in excuse since players will inevitably be injured in the National Football league."

32nd ranked defense and I'd bet at least 28 of those teams ahead of us would have loved to have our defensive roster last season injuries and all.

Maybe if I create a visual.

Corey Webster: Who I'm told is a "Lockdown Corner" DID NOT MISS A GAME

Kenny Phillips: Who I'm told is a "Game Changing" Safety MISSED 1 GAME

Michael Boley: Who I'm told is the best takler in the NFL. MISSED 2 GAMES

Kiwi: Who I'm told is a dominate run defender DID NOT MISS A GAME

Justin Tuck: Who I'm told is one of the best DEs in the NFL (Just so long as he doesn't get shampoo in his eye or stub his toe) PLAYED IN EVERY GAME AFTER THE BYE including the 4 Game Slide

Linvale Joseph: Who I'm told is a main cog in the best D-line in the league. DID NOT MISS A GAME

Chris Canty: I'm told the same. DID NOT MISS A GAME

JPP: Who I'm told may be the best defender in the league DID NOT MISS A GAME

Osi: Who I'm told is dominate pass rusher. MISSED ABOUT HALF THE SEASON

Antrel Rolle: Who I'm told is a former prowbowler and able play saftey corner and backer. DID NOT MISS A GAME

Aaron Ross: Who I'm told is a first round talent who played a key role in the SB run. DID NOT MISS A GAME

All that talent and we're ranked last and you think it was because of injuries?

Wow Osi really did deserve a new contract. Apparently he's the difference between being ranked 32 and being ranked 1

lawl
06-08-2012, 05:39 PM
mlb, #2 cb, nickle back, fs were all worse players than they should have been for the entire season. On top of this, our y
3rd de, a major part of our defense also missed alot of the season.

That's 5 positions weakened that play the amount of snaps that a starter would. All of these injuries before the season even started.

I really don't even know why we try talking to this guy any more

Neverend
06-08-2012, 05:42 PM
Reasons why defense will be better in 2012:

- Fewell will hopefully continue to play more man coverage. Starting onwards with W16 game against the jets, fewell played a lot more man than he did earlier in the year. Only really the falcons game and a few bits of the super bowl did the giants play a considerable amount of zone coverage

- You can argue the jon goff injury was insignificant, but thats not true at all. Forcing greg jones into the lineup as a rookie was a huge issue why the defense struggled. He was bad dropping into coverage (but I blame fewell and his ridiculous tampa 2 cvgs when the giants were in base defense early in the year). Jaquain Williams was highly inconsistent in coverage throughout the year as well. Having two young, inexperienced linebackers really hurt the defense. Williams should be much better in Year 2

- Antrel Rolle will not be the nickel CB anymore. Rolle was a decent open field tackler but T2 has the potential to be an elite slot corner if the giants use him there more often. Rolle struggled badly in the slot (zone coverage particularly). T2 is a major upgrade there

- Aaron Ross is gone. No offense to Ross, great guy and everything, but he wasn't very good. I know Prince is no sure thing, but at least he was a superior prospect coming out of the draft compared to Ross. I think he'll be a better player in Year 2 and ultimately make fans forget about ross

- Tuck and Osi will be healthy. Osi had knee surgery and Tuck was nicked up all year.

... and thats pretty much it. I think Fewell is the wild card this year, next to the defense staying healthy. If he calls more man like he did in 2010 and throughout the giants playoff run, I think this defense will be fine.

lawl
06-08-2012, 05:49 PM
Reasons why defense will be better in 2012:

- Fewell will hopefully continue to play more man coverage. Starting onwards with W16 game against the jets, fewell played a lot more man than he did earlier in the year. Only really the falcons game and a few bits of the super bowl did the giants play a considerable amount of zone coverage

- You can argue the jon goff injury was insignificant, but thats not true at all. Forcing greg jones into the lineup as a rookie was a huge issue why the defense struggled. He was bad dropping into coverage (but I blame fewell and his ridiculous tampa 2 cvgs when the giants were in base defense early in the year). Jaquain Williams was highly inconsistent in coverage throughout the year as well. Having two young, inexperienced linebackers really hurt the defense. Williams should be much better in Year 2

- Antrel Rolle will not be the nickel CB anymore. Rolle was a decent open field tackler but T2 has the potential to be an elite slot corner if the giants use him there more often. Rolle struggled badly in the slot (zone coverage particularly). T2 is a major upgrade there

- Aaron Ross is gone. No offense to Ross, great guy and everything, but he wasn't very good. I know Prince is no sure thing, but at least he was a superior prospect coming out of the draft compared to Ross. I think he'll be a better player in Year 2 and ultimately make fans forget about ross

- Tuck and Osi will be healthy. Osi had knee surgery and Tuck was nicked up all year.

... and thats pretty much it. I think Fewell is the wild card this year, next to the defense staying healthy. If he calls more man like he did in 2010 and throughout the giants playoff run, I think this defense will be fine.

Natural progression of young guys like linval and jpp and jwill. They're only going to get better. Rolle at fs also allows kp to take more risks. I expect an increase in turnovers

buddy33
06-08-2012, 05:53 PM
They are not excuses, just facts. You keep saying you don't want to hear that stat but it's a fact.

Yeah Webster is a very good CB and didn't miss a game. Yeah and? You need more than 1 good CB. Who did they have? Let's see, Ross, who lost his job to TT. He was so good the Giants just let him walk. Who was their #3? Oh that's right, their starting Safety had to play the slot. Yeah that sounds like a great line up in a pass happy league especially when you are using guys you found sitting at home who then where injured themselves.

During the 4 game slide they lost Boley in the 1st loss and he came back at less than 100% for the 4th. Osi was lost in the Saints game and did not come back until he last game of the season.

Questioning Tuck? The guy was hurting all year and stuck it out. He was their best defensive player in the Super Bowl.

giantsfan420
06-08-2012, 07:14 PM
Talent on the field? When healthy they are a good unit. When 2 of our DE's are hurt on and off all year, your Safety is playing the slot because of lack of depth due of injuries, and you have issues at LB where you are using 3 different rookies in a lock out season yo are bound to have some struggles.

So what you're saying is this: "Every single season we have a built in excuse since players will inevitably be injured in the National Football league."

32nd ranked defense and I'd bet at least 28 of those teams ahead of us would have loved to have our defensive roster last season injuries and all.

Maybe if I create a visual.

Corey Webster: Who I'm told is a "Lockdown Corner" DID NOT MISS A GAME

Kenny Phillips: Who I'm told is a "Game Changing" Safety MISSED 1 GAME

Michael Boley: Who I'm told is the best takler in the NFL. MISSED 2 GAMES

Kiwi: Who I'm told is a dominate run defender DID NOT MISS A GAME

Justin Tuck: Who I'm told is one of the best DEs in the NFL (Just so long as he doesn't get shampoo in his eye or stub his toe) PLAYED IN EVERY GAME AFTER THE BYE including the 4 Game Slide

Linvale Joseph: Who I'm told is a main cog in the best D-line in the league. DID NOT MISS A GAME

Chris Canty: I'm told the same. DID NOT MISS A GAME

JPP: Who I'm told may be the best defender in the league DID NOT MISS A GAME

Osi: Who I'm told is dominate pass rusher. MISSED ABOUT HALF THE SEASON

Antrel Rolle: Who I'm told is a former prowbowler and able play saftey corner and backer. DID NOT MISS A GAME

Aaron Ross: Who I'm told is a first round talent who played a key role in the SB run. DID NOT MISS A GAME

All that talent and we're ranked last and you think it was because of injuries?

Wow Osi really did deserve a new contract. Apparently he's the difference between being ranked 32 and being ranked 1

Ur only as good as ur weakest link. We had to field players off their couchs and pure depth/st players at important positions and situations. We had friggin will blackmon playing corner for us at one point lmfao are u serious with this...

EVERY intelligent football mind/fan and even our own coaches have said injuries were a big part of the struggles...is everyone, including our own coaches, wrong? Or are u just overstating some points? Yeah we had alotta our good d players, but they all have their roles and assignments on the field...one player out of position equals opposing o success...like cmon man we r not disagreeing with u outta sheer fun, its bc ur wrong for the most part.

Could the d have performed better? Heck yeah...they DID in the six game win streak n some games prior to that. We played excellently defensively vs dallas, atl, ne and gb (some of the best offenses in the past decade) when it mattered most...and it just so happened that we were our healthiest at that time...again coaches/analysts/intelligent football minds all said this...are we all wrong? R the coaches wrong? No. On this one, u r (for the most part i do agree the d played poorly for some time) but even pf acknowledged that the injuries and player confusion on scheme was a big reason for that...

giantsfan420
06-08-2012, 07:21 PM
Health had everything o do with it. Two of their premier DE's where hurting until the end of the season. That negates much of what they do. Again, it's a passing league. Please tell me about the great depth they had in heir secondary. They where using guys off the street. Those games that Boley and KP where out they where at their worse. They didn't just bounce right back either. They needed time to get better. Oh, and KP was also out the second half of the Green Bay game during the regular season.

Well guess what...in the NFL everyone is hurting....so we might as well start excusing poor defense right now in June.

As far as KP and Boley. They're good players of course the team is going to be worse with them out of the lineup. The point is the team played bad when they were in the lineup.

As far as secondary depth..We were so damn healthy in our secondary with didn't need depth. We trotted our starters out every week but 1 game when KP was hurt. Yet inexplicably people keep talking about how bad our injury situation was.

U just proved ur incorrect. Tt, prince, and almost all our depth missed a ton of time.

OUR D/team HAD THE MOST MISSED GAMES BY STARTERS/KEY DEPTH THE PAST DECADE. The two other teams that were close, a terrible bills team and the winless lions. Like i dunno how u can overlook that. The elias sports bureau and other research firms reported it, its fact. How does that not weigh in on ur reasoning?

And that stat was based on starters and key depth/role players...not 7th string placeholders

0_o

For the love of god stop throwing that stat around. It means nothing. Yes we had depth on IR but our week 1 starters were healthy all season by and large.

Who gives a damn about depth being hurt if the starters are healthy?

Now my question is this:

Why the hell would anyone suggest that we have the best defense ever when this same defense was ranked at the bottom of the league?

Is it because we're getting T2 back? Hate to break it to you but he was never as good as people tried to make him out to be and his injury history is beyond concerning at this point.

Is it because if Marvin Austin? I certainly hope he turns out to be a stud but we have to wait and see.

Is it this Rivers kid?

What the hell is it?

If we can trott out as many week 1 starters out on a weekly basis as we did last season I'd say we're in pretty good shape.

Missing all of your secondary depth makes a huge difference when you're forced to play your staring FS at nickle back.

You realize how tough it is for a defense to play with only three healthy CBs.? And one of those three was a street FA. That makes a huge impact on your team.

Also makes a huge impact when you don't have a legitamit player at MLB and two of the top three players at your most prestigious position on D (DE) are missing games and playing hurt.

And the fact that we correct those things with Prince coming back, signing blackburn off the street to play MLB and Osi & Tuck getting healthy are why you saw the defense you did at the end of the year and into the playoffs.

I'll say it again. Prepare to make that excuse for all your years. Guys are gonna miss games and guys are gonna play hurt every single season.

At MLB did didn't have a legitimate player on the roster. Injuries didn't matter there.

I'm telling you our secondary consisted of completely healthy first and second round draft picks...good players. So what if we had to use a probowler at Nickle back that excuses being ranked last in the league?

What happens if Tuck decides he doesn't feel like playing again this year? Is that an excuse? And I keep telling people that the team stunk the joint up with Osi in the lineup and with osi out of the lineup.

Boley is being called the best tackler in football (missed only 2 games) and Kiwi I'm told is one of the best run stuffing backers in the league yet we couldn't stop the run,

We couldn't stop the run because Osi was hurt?

I'll grant you that Prince turned out to be a pleasant surprise down the stretch but lets not act like the whole D didn't play better during the run.

No matter how you spin it there no excuse for the talent we had ON THE FIELD to rank that low.

Wtf, again, u say stop throwing this stat at u but its bc u say things like "well make the excuse every yr bc players are gonna get hurt" DUH but WE HAD THE MOST INJURIES TO STARTERS/KEY DEPTH THAT ACTUALLY PLAYS in the past decade or something. THE ONLY TWO TEAMS THAT HAD SIMILAR INJURY ISSUES WERE THE WINLESS LIONS AND A FEW WIN BILLS TEAM...

Yeah, injuries happen. But when they occur at the rate they did last season, ur gonna have issues. Cmon man

slipknottin
06-08-2012, 07:43 PM
injuries doesnt only impact guys who are out.

Tuck was flirting with IR most of the season for instance.

Roswell777
06-08-2012, 08:29 PM
Nope...Mark Collins was the best CB the Giants ever had...

I dont think Collins is anywhere near as good as Webster.

Maybe not now...

To make such a strong statement like that implies you saw a lot of Mark Collins. He played some fifteen to twenty five years ago. I'm curious if you're basing your opinion on stats or personal observation.

Parcells loved the guy.

yoeddy
06-08-2012, 09:55 PM
Mark was a true stud at CB ... he could hold his own vs. the likes of Jerry Rice<

Webster is a true stud too, holds his own against any receiver in the league.

The only edge I give Webster over Collins is his hands...Collins didn't have the INT numbers, but his coverage skills (zone and man) were better than Webster, he was much more physical than Webster, and he was MUCH better against the run than Webster.

Roswell777
06-08-2012, 10:04 PM
Mark was a true stud at CB ... he could hold his own vs. the likes of Jerry Rice<

Webster is a true stud too, holds his own against any receiver in the league.

The only edge I give Webster over Collins is his hands...Collins didn't have the INT numbers, but his coverage skills (zone and man) were better than Webster, he was much more physical than Webster, and he was MUCH better against the run than Webster.

Completely agree...

He was probably the most underrated defensive player that the Giants had in that era. He used to shut down Rice.

Maybe Deion Sanders could make that claim, but he had company as far as Collins was concerned.

yoeddy
06-08-2012, 10:06 PM
Mark was a true stud at CB ... he could hold his own vs. the likes of Jerry Rice<

Webster is a true stud too, holds his own against any receiver in the league.

The only edge I give Webster over Collins is his hands...Collins didn't have the INT numbers, but his coverage skills (zone and man) were better than Webster, he was much more physical than Webster, and he was MUCH better against the run than Webster.

Completely agree...

He was probably the most underrated defensive player that the Giants had in that era. He used to shut down Rice.

Maybe Deion Sanders could also make that claim, but he had company as far as Collins was concerned.

Deion was certainly one of the great CBs in terms of coverage skills and hands...but as Dave Brown will tell you, Deion was not a very physical player...

Roswell777
06-08-2012, 10:12 PM
Mark was a true stud at CB ... he could hold his own vs. the likes of Jerry Rice<

Webster is a true stud too, holds his own against any receiver in the league.

The only edge I give Webster over Collins is his hands...Collins didn't have the INT numbers, but his coverage skills (zone and man) were better than Webster, he was much more physical than Webster, and he was MUCH better against the run than Webster.

Completely agree...

He was probably the most underrated defensive player that the Giants had in that era. He used to shut down Rice.

Maybe Deion Sanders could also make that claim, but he had company as far as Collins was concerned.

Deion was certainly one of the great CBs in terms of coverage skills and hands...but as Dave Brown will tell you, Deion was not a very physical player...

We are on the same page.

If there was a sweep heading Sanders way he was backpedaling faster than when he covered a fly pattern.

Collins was terrific at the point of attack.

Not saying Collins was better than Sanders vs the pass but clearly better vs the run than Sanders or Webster.

JJC7301
06-08-2012, 11:50 PM
Think about it, we have probowl level talent at almost every position on our defense and probably the deepest CB depth in the league.

Except for maybe the 86 defense and that is mainly just because of LT / Carson / Banks.

Overall, I think this defense has more potential.

I can't wait for this season!
I'll have to believe it to see it. The '86 and other D's of the late '80s were dominant and they didn't give an inch to anyone. They had a toughness and tenacity that I haven't see on a consistent basis with these modern Giants Ds.

Not knocking our current D, but no, they'll have to show that they are a dominant D over the course of an entire season before I put them up there with the best Giants D of the modern era.

UmenYiourAnIdiot
06-09-2012, 12:57 AM
You are right. Injuries were not an excuse for um, winning the SB.

This.

slipknottin
06-09-2012, 11:22 AM
Maybe Deion Sanders could make that claim, but he had company as far as Collins was concerned.


Go back and watch the giants 2008 season. Webster shut down EVERYONE. He was the best CB in the NFC that season.

While he hasent quite played to that level, he has been a dominant probowl caliber player for the past 4 seasons.

NYG 5
06-09-2012, 12:49 PM
Yeah but neither of them is a Jason Sehorn

Ahmad44rushHARD
06-09-2012, 01:01 PM
Webster, (TT), JP, LJ, Canty, Tuck, (Osi), Prince
Kiwi, Rivers, Boley
Rolle, KP

If healthy, and they all play up to their potential, that is most definitely at top 5 defense. .Only problem is, someone will get hurt, Gawd Forbid. and some may slump

Roswell777
06-09-2012, 02:14 PM
Maybe Deion Sanders could make that claim, but he had company as far as Collins was concerned.


Go back and watch the giants 2008 season. Webster shut down EVERYONE. He was the best CB in the NFC that season.

While he hasent quite played to that level, he has been a dominant probowl caliber player for the past 4 seasons.

I agree that Webster has been a very solid cover corner just took issue with your original statement that Mark Collins is not anywhere as good as Webster. I've seen every game both players have played, and Collins was also a terrific all around corner who followed the best WRs no matter which side they lined up on. Played hurt, hit really hard and shut down some all time greats. It's hard to just dismiss that.

Usually agree with your assessments and have learned a few things from them. Just not on board with this one.

I guess I prefer my corners to be really strong in run support as well. Probably why I would take a Revis over a Sanders.

888888
06-09-2012, 02:46 PM
In my mind there was SOMETHING that just CLICKED in </P>


fewell's system at the end of the season ......in combo with injured players returning I see tremendous potential for us this season</P>

yoeddy
06-09-2012, 05:01 PM
Yeah but neither of them is a Jason Sehorn

And thank god for that!

Sehorn...superb athleticism making up for below-average football instincts. Tho not as shy about contact as Deion, was nowhere near the physical player that Collins was.

yoeddy
06-09-2012, 05:03 PM
In my mind there was SOMETHING that just CLICKED in </P>


fewell's system at the end of the season ......in combo with injured players returning I see tremendous potential for us this season</P>

Fewell's system was dependent on having a premiere front 4...which he didn't have for most of the season due to injuries. Once everyone started coming back, the system could work.