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View Full Version : ELI MANNING MORE CLUTCH THAT ROMO, SAYS CANTY



RoanokeFan
06-27-2012, 03:23 PM
ELI MANNING MORE CLUTCH THAT ROMO, SAYS CANTY (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82a291b3/article/eli-manning-more-clutch-than-tony-romo-says-canty)

"Keep in mind that we're hearing this from a member of the New York Giants (/teams/newyorkgiants/profile?team=NYG), but Chris Canty believes his quarterback, Eli Manning (/players/elimanning/profile?id=MAN473170), has
left Tony Romo (/players/tonyromo/profile?id=ROM787981) in the
dust.


Canty told ESPN Radio this week that Manning "absolutely" was the guy you
want in the huddle when the bullets fly. It's worth mentioning because Canty
spent the early part of his career in Dallas as Romo's teammate.</p>


</p><div id="yui_3_5_0_1_1340821090765_614" class="articleText">

"Tony Romo is a terrific quarterback, can't take that away from him.
Statistically he's a top five quarterback," Canty said, via SBNation.com (http://newyork.sbnation.com/new-york-giants/2012/6/26/3119048/new-york-giants-chris-canty-eli-manning-nfl-network-top-100-tony-romo-tim-tebow-new-york-jets). "Eli's ability to elevate his
game and elevate the play of all the guys around him in the most crucial
situations in the football game I believe is the difference. That's what makes
him a championship quarterback."</p>


Canty also took issue with NFL Network's "The Top 100: Players of 2012,"
which ranked Manning at No. 31: "I just don't understand that," Canty said. "For
goodness sake, just look at the resume, look at what he's been able to do. He's
an elite football player, and I think it's time people recognized that."</p>


Canty doesn't need to sell people on the "elite" argument, not for Manning.
Quarterbacks with two Super Bowl titles enter that conversation without much
trouble.</p>


Romo -- <a id="yui_3_5_0_1_1340821090765_957" href="http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82a27395">despite Brett
Favre's backing</a> -- faces a different challenge. As Canty points out, Romo's
numbers aren't the issue. With just one playoff win, he <a id="yui_3_5_0_1_1340821090765_958" href="http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82a0c6d0">remains a
polarizing figure</a>."</p></div>

gumby742
06-27-2012, 03:28 PM
The role reversal is pretty interesting. But Eli's been clutch ever since he was a rookie.

GMENAGAIN
06-27-2012, 03:55 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>

Morehead State
06-27-2012, 04:03 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>

ryan12
06-27-2012, 04:21 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


</P>


</P>


i was thinking the same thing </P>

Morehead State
06-27-2012, 04:22 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


</P>


</P>


i was thinking the same thing </P>


</P>


At the very least we should compare him to GMENAGAIN. Hahhahahhahahaha!!!!</P>

sharick88
06-27-2012, 04:24 PM
A horrible wingman on a double date is more clutch than Romo

bELIeve_in_Giants
06-27-2012, 04:27 PM
In other news, water is wet.

sharick88
06-27-2012, 04:35 PM
In all seriousness though, Romo is a pretty good QB. He is far from a scrub. His 4th quarter stats from this past season aren't that bad either:

http://www.nfl.com/player/tonyromo/2505354/situationalstats

Eli Manning, on the other hand was better, especially when behind:

http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/situationalstats

sharick88
06-27-2012, 04:35 PM
In other news, water is wet.


LMAO...........

jakegibbs
06-27-2012, 04:37 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>

Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.

Morehead State
06-27-2012, 04:39 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers &amp; Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>

jakegibbs
06-27-2012, 04:46 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>

hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass.

3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?

burier
06-27-2012, 04:47 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>

lol that is quite funny. Montanta is gonna jump out his grave and slap you....what? Montana isn't dead? Oh.

And who the hell is pointing a microphone a Chris Canty just so he can say something obvious or irrelevant? Why don't they ask him why he takes so many plays off?

burier
06-27-2012, 04:51 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>

hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass.

3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?

I'm pretty sure Adam Viniteri (Sp) is higher in the clutch pantheon than Brady.

Morehead State
06-27-2012, 04:58 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers &amp; Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against &amp; it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB &amp; Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats. I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe. I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can. He's done it his entire career. When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else. And he did it with below average offensive players. Certainly nothing like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead. If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli. Eli is definately a clutch player. But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that. But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>

Rudyy
06-27-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm guessing this thread goes to 10+ pages..

Morehead State
06-27-2012, 05:10 PM
I'm guessing this thread goes to 10+ pages..</P>


No chance. I have golf league tonight.</P>


Only Morehead can liven up a crappy thread.</P>

GMENAGAIN
06-27-2012, 05:11 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


</P>


</P>


i was thinking the same thing </P>


</P>


At the very least we should compare him to GMENAGAIN. Hahhahahhahahaha!!!!</P>


</P>


That's just hurtful . . . . </P>

Drez
06-27-2012, 05:16 PM
Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


Except against the Giants. In the Super Bowl.</P>

Cool Papa B.
06-27-2012, 05:21 PM
Uhmm...seriously is this even a debate. Even the most die hard Cowboy fan & hommer knows this.

Nothing ground-breaking at all. Canty just stated the obvious.

Morehead State
06-27-2012, 05:22 PM
Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


Except against the Giants. In the Super Bowl.</P>


</P>


Well he scored a TD in 42 (too quickly as it turned out) to go ahead by 4. And if not for the Welker drop, would have won that game. Not to mention 3 SB winning drives at the end of those games.</P>


I just have great respect and a high opinion of Brady as a football player, and as a clutch QB.</P>


Honestly I think that he and Peyton may be the best 2 QB's in NFL history. Thats not a knock on anyone else.</P>

burier
06-27-2012, 05:22 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats.** I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe.* I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can.* He's done it his entire career.* When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else.* And he did it with below average offensive players.* Certainly nothing* like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead.* If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli.* Eli is definately a clutch player.* But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that.* But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>

Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't.

And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game.

Does Brady even have a significant come back victory?

And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch.

And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR

God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is and you'd be the guy with the loudest bullhorn.

Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.

Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch.

You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH.

And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning.

As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son.

Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.

Morehead State
06-27-2012, 05:30 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers &amp; Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against &amp; it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB &amp; Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats. I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe. I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can. He's done it his entire career. When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else. And he did it with below average offensive players. Certainly nothing like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead. If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli. Eli is definately a clutch player. But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that. But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"? What the hell is that nonsense. I'm talking about play in and play out. I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw. He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside. he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose. He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady. I've seen just about every pass he's thrown. I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances. Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>

GMENAGAIN
06-27-2012, 05:35 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers &amp; Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against &amp; it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB &amp; Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats. I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe. I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can. He's done it his entire career. When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else. And he did it with below average offensive players. Certainly nothing like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead. If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli. Eli is definately a clutch player. But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that. But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"? What the hell is that nonsense. I'm talking about play in and play out. I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw. He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside. he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose. He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady. I've seen just about every pass he's thrown. I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances. Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>


</P>


Knocking Brady is just silly. The guy will go down as one of the Top 5 (at least) QB's of all time. </P>

Diamondring
06-27-2012, 05:35 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats.** I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe.* I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can.* He's done it his entire career.* When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else.* And he did it with below average offensive players.* Certainly nothing* like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead.* If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli.* Eli is definately a clutch player.* But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that.* But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>It is almost impossible for a player to do well with below average offensive players. Brady had decent receivers and a back coming out of a backfield wide open because the oppositions' defense were tryihg to cover the receivers. Brady also had a real good O-line and a weak division. Eli has a tough division to work with almost every year and a tough schedule as well.

Cool Papa B.
06-27-2012, 05:44 PM
@ Morehead State...

I agree that Brady is a great QB. The final drive in SB 36 was great. What he did with just 1:21 left and no TO's was great.

But him and Payton the top 2 QB's of all time?...Unitas & Elway thinks you've gone overboard

bklyn1028
06-27-2012, 05:45 PM
In all seriousness though, Romo is a pretty good QB. He is far from a scrub. His 4th quarter stats from this past season aren't that bad either:

http://www.nfl.com/player/tonyromo/2505354/situationalstats

Eli Manning, on the other hand was better, especially when behind:

http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/situationalstats

I agree with the fact that Romo is a very good QB, however something just doesn't gel for him in Dallas. On another team, he just might (depending on the team of course) make the post season, and possibly a SB appearance, but unfortunately for him, it just ain't gonna happen in Jerry Land.

Clutch did you say, Eli in my opinion should and probably will go down as the most clutch QB in NFL history.

burier
06-27-2012, 06:01 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats.** I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe.* I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can.* He's done it his entire career.* When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else.* And he did it with below average offensive players.* Certainly nothing* like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead.* If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli.* Eli is definately a clutch player.* But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that.* But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"?* What the hell is that nonsense.* I'm talking about play in and play out.* I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw.* He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside.* he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose.* He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady.* I've seen just about every pass he's thrown.** I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances.** Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>


</P>


Knocking Brady is just silly.* The guy will go down as one of the Top 5 (at least) QB's of all time.* *</P>

Sorry...I just knocked the **** out of him and I used nothing but complete fact.

burier
06-27-2012, 06:04 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats.** I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe.* I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can.* He's done it his entire career.* When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else.* And he did it with below average offensive players.* Certainly nothing* like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead.* If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli.* Eli is definately a clutch player.* But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that.* But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"?* What the hell is that nonsense.* I'm talking about play in and play out.* I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw.* He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside.* he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose.* He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady.* I've seen just about every pass he's thrown.** I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances.** Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>

You may think that throw was good but I'd bet my house that you'd be saying something else had #10 thrown it.

And your book need to be rewritten.

Brady's three rings can be attributed to

1) Horrendous division

2) Tuck Rule

3) Flat out unadulterated cheating.

No rings in the post spygate era.

Joe Morrison
06-27-2012, 06:09 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers &amp; Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against &amp; it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB &amp; Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats. I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe. I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can. He's done it his entire career. When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else. And he did it with below average offensive players. Certainly nothing like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead. If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli. Eli is definately a clutch player. But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that. But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


</P>


I am tired of hearing the Welker drop, if Brady makes a good pass there and Welker doesn't have to perform like a ballerina just to get his hands on the ball, then I could except it, Brady threw a horrible pass to a wide open reciever just like he missed one in regular season by over throwing a wide open guy who got behind Rolle. Brady had his time but it appears Eli is the Clutch Man Now!</P>

buddy33
06-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Brady is a very good QB, but I'd take Eli over him. I might even take Ben over him.

buddy33
06-27-2012, 06:11 PM
The Welker drop and the KP pick that never was. Woulda coulda shoulda!

Joe Morrison
06-27-2012, 06:20 PM
The Welker drop and the KP pick that never was. Woulda coulda shoulda!</P>


Buddy, where is your pic?</P>

GMENAGAIN
06-27-2012, 06:22 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers &amp; Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against &amp; it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB &amp; Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats. I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe. I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can. He's done it his entire career. When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else. And he did it with below average offensive players. Certainly nothing like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead. If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli. Eli is definately a clutch player. But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that. But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"? What the hell is that nonsense. I'm talking about play in and play out. I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw. He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside. he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose. He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady. I've seen just about every pass he's thrown. I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances. Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>


</P>


Knocking Brady is just silly. The guy will go down as one of the Top 5 (at least) QB's of all time. </P>


Sorry...I just knocked the **** out of him and I used nothing but complete fact.</P>


In your mind only . . . . .</P>

buddy33
06-27-2012, 06:25 PM
I haven't had it up there for a while now.

chasjay
06-27-2012, 06:46 PM
I don't feel like getting in the Eli vs. anybody debate today. I'd just like to give props to Canty for being a good teammate.............and an honest one [:)]

Diamondring
06-27-2012, 07:41 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats.** I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe.* I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can.* He's done it his entire career.* When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else.* And he did it with below average offensive players.* Certainly nothing* like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead.* If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli.* Eli is definately a clutch player.* But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that.* But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"?* What the hell is that nonsense.* I'm talking about play in and play out.* I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw.* He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside.* he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose.* He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady.* I've seen just about every pass he's thrown.** I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances.** Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>

You may think that throw was good but I'd bet my house that you'd be saying something else had #10 thrown it.

And your book need to be rewritten.

Brady's three rings can be attributed to

1) Horrendous division

2) Tuck Rule

3) Flat out unadulterated cheating.

No rings in the post spygate era.Yes what you have said is true.

Diamondring
06-27-2012, 07:42 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers & Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against & it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB & Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats.** I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe.* I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can.* He's done it his entire career.* When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else.* And he did it with below average offensive players.* Certainly nothing* like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead.* If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli.* Eli is definately a clutch player.* But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that.* But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"?* What the hell is that nonsense.* I'm talking about play in and play out.* I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw.* He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside.* he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose.* He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady.* I've seen just about every pass he's thrown.** I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances.** Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>


</P>


Knocking Brady is just silly.* The guy will go down as one of the Top 5 (at least) QB's of all time.* *</P>


Sorry...I just knocked the **** out of him and I used nothing but complete fact.</P>


In your mind only . . . . .</P>Oh come on man you got to be kiddin me. He is right on Brady and til this day his division can't even get above 500.

GMENAGAIN
06-27-2012, 08:30 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>


</P>


Yeah, lets hold Eli to a higher standard.</P>


Your right it should have stated "Eli Manning more Clutch than Romo,Big Ben, Rogers &amp; Brady at least.</P>


Brady is there with Montana as the most clutch QB I ever saw.</P>


hmmm....Let's do the math... Let's see 4 games played against &amp; it's 3-1 Manning over Brady. 1-1 in reg season where clutch doesn't play as much but 2-0 Manning in SB &amp; Tom had a chance to make it 1-1 but the hail Brady pass wasn't as clutch as the hail Manning pass. 3-1 vs 1-3 who's more clutch again. I missed something?</P>


Thanks for the stats. I've watched Brady, living here in Mass. since he replaced Bledsoe. I've never seen a guy who can put the ball on the money on third and 7 for 8 yards like he can. He's done it his entire career. When his numbers weren't that great, its what seperated him from everyone else. And he did it with below average offensive players. Certainly nothing like Mike Wallace and Vincent Jackson.</P>


Now he has prolific numbers but I'm not as impressed with that.</P>


You mention those games but remember that Brady scored late TD's in SB 42 and the reg. season game this year to put them ahead. If not for the Welker drop he might have done it again.</P>


This is no knock on Eli. Eli is definately a clutch player. But Brady is just unbelievable in that regard.</P>


You want to compare Eli to any other QB, including his brother in that, I am all aboard that. But Brady is on his own level in that regard.</P>


Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. And not to belabor the point but your ability to value Brady's third down prowess is rather annoying considering how over the years you've consistently under valued all the intangible aspects of Eli's game. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. And that throw the Wes was PISS POOR....Brady through a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch. Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch. You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


"Signature Drive"? What the hell is that nonsense. I'm talking about play in and play out. I'm talking about every time he has the ball at the end of a game, he takes it to a new level.</P>


And the pass to Welker was a good throw. He had to throw it away from the safety inside and away from the corner on the outside. he threw it exactly where Welker could get two hands on it and not have it knocked loose. He threw a pass that Collingsworth said Welker catches 100 out of 100 times.</P>


You can argue all you want about Brady. I've seen just about every pass he's thrown. I admit that I hated the Pats for a long time because of all the obnoxios Pats fans here, but I have developed a reluctant appreciation for a truly great football player.</P>


3 SB's and 5 SB appearances. Thats pretty friggin awesome in my book.</P>


</P>


Knocking Brady is just silly. The guy will go down as one of the Top 5 (at least) QB's of all time. </P>


Sorry...I just knocked the **** out of him and I used nothing but complete fact.</P>


In your mind only . . . . .</P>


Oh come on man you got to be kiddin me. He is right on Brady and til this day his division can't even get above 500.</P>


There you go burier . . . . GWAT agrees with you.</P>


Case closed.</P>

Drez
06-27-2012, 08:42 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>

GMENAGAIN
06-27-2012, 08:43 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


</P>


Well done, sir!</P>

Drez
06-27-2012, 08:47 PM
@ Morehead State... I agree that Brady is a great QB. The final drive in SB 36 was great. What he did with just 1:21 left and no TO's was great. But him and Payton the top 2 QB's of all time?...Unitas &amp; Elway thinks you've gone overboardToo young to have witnessed Unitas, but the Elway love is waaaay overboard.

GMENAGAIN
06-27-2012, 08:53 PM
@ Morehead State... I agree that Brady is a great QB. The final drive in SB 36 was great. What he did with just 1:21 left and no TO's was great. But him and Payton the top 2 QB's of all time?...Unitas &amp; Elway thinks you've gone overboardToo young to have witnessed Unitas, but the Elway love is waaaay overboard.</P>


Totally agree . . . . Brady and Peyton rank above Elway in my book. Although I do thank that Elway is a Top 10 all-timer . . . .. </P>

Drez
06-27-2012, 08:54 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


</P>


Well done, sir!</P>


</P>


Thanks. Like I said, I'm as big of an Eli homer as there is and I hate having to defend Brady, because I can't stand the *****, but that was some foolishness that burier was trying to spout.</P>

Drez
06-27-2012, 08:55 PM
@ Morehead State... I agree that Brady is a great QB. The final drive in SB 36 was great. What he did with just 1:21 left and no TO's was great. But him and Payton the top 2 QB's of all time?...Unitas &amp; Elway thinks you've gone overboardToo young to have witnessed Unitas, but the Elway love is waaaay overboard.</P>


Totally agree . . . . Brady and Peyton rank above Elway in my book. Although I do thank that Elway is a Top 10 all-timer . . . .. </P>


</P>


I wonder if Papa realizes that Elways has fewer SB wins than Brady, lol.</P>

giantsfan420
06-27-2012, 09:00 PM
brady also had a clutch drive vs dallas this past season iirc.

eli is way more clutch than romo and imho a much better qb but thats just me.

theres no reason to bring brady into all this imo

Neverend
06-27-2012, 11:11 PM
Romo vs Eli as far as being clutch goes shouldn't even be a discussion...

its a landslide in Eli's favor. **** sake

The only time I remember romo doing something clutch was a game against the redskins back in 2009. to my memory, hes been medicore at the end of games nearly every other time

gumby742
06-27-2012, 11:14 PM
Elway = Overrated. If Shanahan and Terrell Davis didn't arrive when he was almost 40, he'd be with Tarkenton and Jim Kelly..

Rat_bastich
06-27-2012, 11:17 PM
Elway = Overrated. If Shanahan and Terrell Davis didn't arrive when he was almost 40, he'd be with Tarkenton and Jim Kelly..

I wouldn't call Elway overrated. He was an awesome quarterback, but he just needed a running game to help him out. Shannahan's strength as a coach has always been to have a good running game. In Denver, even with rotating backs(after Davis) he was producing multiple 1000 yard rushers. When Davis was drafted it became a pick your poison offense.

Neverend
06-27-2012, 11:17 PM
Worst part about it is I can remember Trent Dilfer talking up Tony romo as a clutch QB on espn for years, ALWAYS referring to that redskins drive

The guy does deserve credit tho, he played one of the best games I've ever seen from a QB against dolphins last year. too bad you don't see that consistently

Delicreep
06-28-2012, 09:12 AM
"Eli more clutch than Romo", says everyone ever

nygsb42champs
06-28-2012, 09:21 AM
I think Canty is stating what Giant fans have known over the past few years. There is nobody better in a clutch situation than Eli.

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 09:27 AM
Elway = Overrated. If Shanahan and Terrell Davis didn't arrive when he was almost 40, he'd be with Tarkenton and Jim Kelly..</P>


Well yeah..... When a team is no longer a "one man team", they have a much better chance of winning a SB.</P>


Taking an otherwise mediocre team to 3 SB'swas actually a great accomplishment.</P>


You guys make it sound like unless a QB is the only great player on the team, it doesn't mean anything when they win a SB. It DOES take other players.</P>


Elway was tremendous. he was legendary for his 4th quarter comebacks, including one of the most famous comeback drives of all time in the AFC championship game at Cleveland in January '87.</P>


You guys crack me up sometimes.</P>

gumby742
06-28-2012, 10:12 AM
Elway = Overrated. If Shanahan and Terrell Davis didn't arrive when he was almost 40, he'd be with Tarkenton and Jim Kelly..</P>


Well yeah..... When a team is no longer a "one man team", they have a much better chance of winning a SB.</P>


Taking an otherwise mediocre team to 3 SB'swas actually a great accomplishment.</P>


You guys make it sound like unless a QB is the only great player on the team, it doesn't mean anything when they win a SB. It DOES take other players.</P>


Elway was tremendous. he was legendary for his 4th quarter comebacks, including one of the most famous comeback drives of all time in the AFC championship game at Cleveland in January '87.</P>


You guys crack me up sometimes.</P>


</P>


Denver never had a hoard of high profile players, but they certainly had a bunch of very good ones. They certainly were not a mediocre team without Elway. I'm not saying Elway wasn't great, just not as great as people made him out to be.</P>

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 10:17 AM
Elway = Overrated. If Shanahan and Terrell Davis didn't arrive when he was almost 40, he'd be with Tarkenton and Jim Kelly..</P>


Well yeah..... When a team is no longer a "one man team", they have a much better chance of winning a SB.</P>


Taking an otherwise mediocre team to 3 SB'swas actually a great accomplishment.</P>


You guys make it sound like unless a QB is the only great player on the team, it doesn't mean anything when they win a SB. It DOES take other players.</P>


Elway was tremendous. he was legendary for his 4th quarter comebacks, including one of the most famous comeback drives of all time in the AFC championship game at Cleveland in January '87.</P>


You guys crack me up sometimes.</P>


</P>


Denver never had a hoard of high profile players, but they certainly had a bunch of very good ones. They certainly were not a mediocre team without Elway. I'm not saying Elway wasn't great, just not as great as people made him out to be.</P>


</P>


Do you think we would have won two SB's without Tom Coughlin, Justin Tuck, Osi etc....?</P>


Its a silly point. Denver without Elway was a 6-10 team at best. Tghe notion that he is "overrated" because he didn't win a SB until Shanahan and TD is nonsense.</P>


So many things have to happen that are out of the control of the QB for a team to win a SB. You need a lot of really good players and really good coaches.</P>


Ask Dan Marino, who never got those players and had to try to carry that team every year. And he was better than Elway.</P>

gumby742
06-28-2012, 10:37 AM
Elway = Overrated. If Shanahan and Terrell Davis didn't arrive when he was almost 40, he'd be with Tarkenton and Jim Kelly..</P>


Well yeah..... When a team is no longer a "one man team", they have a much better chance of winning a SB.</P>


Taking an otherwise mediocre team to 3 SB'swas actually a great accomplishment.</P>


You guys make it sound like unless a QB is the only great player on the team, it doesn't mean anything when they win a SB. It DOES take other players.</P>


Elway was tremendous. he was legendary for his 4th quarter comebacks, including one of the most famous comeback drives of all time in the AFC championship game at Cleveland in January '87.</P>


You guys crack me up sometimes.</P>


</P>


Denver never had a hoard of high profile players, but they certainly had a bunch of very good ones. They certainly were not a mediocre team without Elway. I'm not saying Elway wasn't great, just not as great as people made him out to be.</P>


</P>


Do you think we would have won two SB's without Tom Coughlin, Justin Tuck, Osi etc....?</P>


Its a silly point. Denver without Elway was a 6-10 team at best. Tghe notion that he is "overrated" because he didn't win a SB until Shanahan and TD is nonsense.</P>


So many things have to happen that are out of the control of the QB for a team to win a SB. You need a lot of really good players and really good coaches.</P>


Ask Dan Marino, who never got those players and had to try to carry that team every year. And he was better than Elway.</P>


</P>


Timeout. Think of it this way. From a media perspective, once you win a championship, everything turns an extra shade of peachy and rosie. Elway was a great player. But he was no lessand no more of a great player than when he won and lost those SBs. But after he wins those 2, he was portrayed as far more. When I say over-rated .. that's what I mean. And I'm the biggest Dan Marino homer out there. I spent a good portion of my life in Miami and Pittsburgh. And it's probably why I'm so sensitive to the "SB causing a player to be better than he was".</P>

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 10:41 AM
Elway = Overrated. If Shanahan and Terrell Davis didn't arrive when he was almost 40, he'd be with Tarkenton and Jim Kelly..</P>


Well yeah..... When a team is no longer a "one man team", they have a much better chance of winning a SB.</P>


Taking an otherwise mediocre team to 3 SB'swas actually a great accomplishment.</P>


You guys make it sound like unless a QB is the only great player on the team, it doesn't mean anything when they win a SB. It DOES take other players.</P>


Elway was tremendous. he was legendary for his 4th quarter comebacks, including one of the most famous comeback drives of all time in the AFC championship game at Cleveland in January '87.</P>


You guys crack me up sometimes.</P>


</P>


Denver never had a hoard of high profile players, but they certainly had a bunch of very good ones. They certainly were not a mediocre team without Elway. I'm not saying Elway wasn't great, just not as great as people made him out to be.</P>


</P>


Do you think we would have won two SB's without Tom Coughlin, Justin Tuck, Osi etc....?</P>


Its a silly point. Denver without Elway was a 6-10 team at best. Tghe notion that he is "overrated" because he didn't win a SB until Shanahan and TD is nonsense.</P>


So many things have to happen that are out of the control of the QB for a team to win a SB. You need a lot of really good players and really good coaches.</P>


Ask Dan Marino, who never got those players and had to try to carry that team every year. And he was better than Elway.</P>


</P>


Timeout. Think of it this way. From a media perspective, once you win a championship, everything turns an extra shade of peachy and rosie. Elway was a great player. But he was no lessand no more of a great player than when he won and lost those SBs. But after he wins those 2, he was portrayed as far more. When I say over-rated .. that's what I mean. And I'm the biggest Dan Marino homer out there. I spent a good portion of my life in Miami and Pittsburgh. And it's probably why I'm so sensitive to the "SB causing a player to be better than he was".</P>


</P>


Its a fair point, but I would also say that maybe the media places a bit too much emphasis on SB wins for a QB. So maybe he wasn't getting enough credit before he won.</P>


I would say that the guy was close to a top 5 all time QB. Hard to say with the different eras, but he was a heck of a player.</P>

burier
06-28-2012, 01:05 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory?* I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


*</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


*</P>



*And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


*</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



*Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch*No, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>

1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game.

2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair.

3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me.

4) Definately true.

5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch.

6) semantics.

7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag.

8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.

MattMeyerBud
06-28-2012, 01:10 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


</P>


</P>


just curious, what do u feel the difference is between throwing away from coverage and finding the open man?</P>

burier
06-28-2012, 01:17 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory?* I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


*</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


*</P>



*And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


*</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



*Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch*No, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


*</P>


*</P>


just curious, what do u feel the difference is between throwing away from coverage and finding the open man?</P>

I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.

GeoGoGo
06-28-2012, 01:32 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>

LOL! Awesome!

Cool Papa B.
06-28-2012, 02:32 PM
Uhmm...guys, exactly what in Elway as a QB is overrated?

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 02:40 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap. Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike fewQB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD. And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>

Ntegrase96
06-28-2012, 03:01 PM
Romo vs Eli as far as being clutch goes shouldn't even be a discussion...

its a landslide in Eli's favor. **** sake

The only time I remember romo doing something clutch was a game against the redskins back in 2009. to my memory, hes been medicore at the end of games nearly every other time

He's more clutch than you think, but the Eli being more clutch by a landslide is still pretty correct.

This year alone Romo had 4th Q comeback game winning drives, and two more where he did more than his part on, but A.) We iced our own kicker, and B.) JPP blocked a FG attempt.

The reason why Romo seems like the anti clutch is because when he screws up, ESPN will show it non stop, unlike most QBs.

Other than that, he was great in the 4th q last year, had a 100+ rating with the lead, behind, and tied-- (so there's no real drop off one way or another).

burier
06-28-2012, 03:15 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory?* I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


*</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


*</P>



*And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


*</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



*Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch*No, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap.* Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike few*QB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD.* And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>

Ok so you're actually going to use a game where Brady was able to muster just 14 points of offense as an example of him playing well when pressured?

I don't follow.

And if he's standing tall in the pocket that's because the pocket was CLEAN.

I've seen very few Quarterbacks get to stand around in the pocket like Brady does.

Now if you've been brainwashed into thinking the man infallable fine...Go check the games logs from this past season.

When consistently rushed the man is inaccurate and INT prone.

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 03:22 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap. Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike fewQB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD. And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>


Ok so you're actually going to use a game where Brady was able to muster just 14 points of offense as an example of him playing well when pressured? I don't follow.</P>


Haha. You guys laud Eli in that game and he scored 17. </P>


And "interception prone"? The guy has a 2.2% int. rate. thats off the charts great.</P>


I was reacting to your contention that he's not clutch and plays poorly under the pressure of a pass rush. I cited an example where that wasn't the case. I'm also basing it on my watching Tom Brady for his entire career, living here in Mass. Yes, I hate the Pats (due to their fans) but i can't ignore Brady's greatness.</P>


What some of you "tear the other guy down" people don't realize. When you denegrate Tom Brady, you cheapen the greatness of our two SB wins against the Pats. Makes no sense to me. One of the great things about those wins is that they came against an all time great QB.</P>


I guess we're supposed to think that our 2 SB's wins were "no big deal" since they were against a team and /or QB that you think isn't very good? Nonsense.</P>


Our wins were especially glorious because of the greatness of the opposition.</P>

burier
06-28-2012, 03:40 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory?* I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


*</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


*</P>



*And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


*</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



*Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch*No, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap.* Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike few*QB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD.* And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>


Ok so you're actually going to use a game where Brady was able to muster just 14 points of offense as an example of him playing well when pressured? I don't follow.</P>


Haha.* You guys laud Eli in that game and he scored 17.* </P>


And "interception prone"?* The guy has a 2.2% int. rate.* thats off the charts great.</P>


I was reacting to your contention that he's not clutch and plays poorly under the pressure of a pass rush.* I cited an example where that wasn't the case.* I'm also basing it on my watching Tom Brady for his entire career, living here in Mass.* Yes, I hate the Pats (due to their fans) but i can't ignore Brady's greatness.</P>


What some of you "tear the other guy down" people don't realize.* When you denegrate Tom Brady, you cheapen the greatness of our two SB wins against the Pats.* Makes no sense to me.* One of the great things about those wins is that they came against an all time great QB.</P>


I guess we're supposed to think that our 2 SB's wins were "no big deal" since they were against a team and /or QB that you think isn't very good?* Nonsense.</P>


Our wins were especially glorious because of the greatness of the opposition.</P>


You're trying to point out an incompete pass as an example of him playing well when pressured. You're reaching.

Fact is he didn't look like the same player because he was pressured.

I'm not talking about 1 or 2 throws..I'm talking about the duration o the game.

How can you focus in on 2 throws when the guy looked pedestrianthroughout the majority of the game? I'm not faulting him for the sacks..Im talking about when he beat the rush but just could not deliver the ball.


I live in Boston. I'm sure I've seen as much of Brady as you have and if you watch Brady as much as you say then why are you arguing what is obvious?

The guy can't play when he's under seige.

If you look at our regular season game at the Pats... again...pressure equaled INTS and poor throws. Sure he brought his team down for the go a head score but overall the pressure made him look and play like Poo.

Of the veteran QBs I'd say Tom Brady is the most easily rattled by pass rush and this has nothing to do with loving or hating anyone. Its just a fact about Tom Brady's game.

Take a look at the AFC conference championship game. Again Brady was pressured and Brady played poorly.

And before you say ALL qbs suffer when pressured....turn on the tape of the NFC conference Championship game and watch our Quarterback actually become MORE poised and MORE accurate as the game went on and the hits piled up.

You say his INT rate is low. I agree. But again we're talking about a QB who folds under pressure but doesn't see pressure most sundays.

If you really watched Brady you'd see a guy who gets to step up into a clean pocket BY FAR more than any other QB in the NFL. (IN THE PAST MAYBE 30 years if we're being honest)

And so we're clear no one "Lauded" Eli for putting up 17 points...(Though lets be honest..Steve Smith probably took 7 points off the board for us) Eli is lauded for making the greatest play in the history of the sport.

Our SBs are great because they say we're the best in the biz.

And when did I ever say that Brady isn't very good?

I didn't. He's one of the great ones. All ive done is objectively point out a weakness in his game.

NYG4lifeNYK
06-28-2012, 03:44 PM
So I heard we landed on the moon...

lawl
06-28-2012, 03:44 PM
Who can talk out of their *** the most?

To be determined.

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 03:48 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap. Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike fewQB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD. And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>


Ok so you're actually going to use a game where Brady was able to muster just 14 points of offense as an example of him playing well when pressured? I don't follow.</P>


Haha. You guys laud Eli in that game and he scored 17. </P>


And "interception prone"? The guy has a 2.2% int. rate. thats off the charts great.</P>


I was reacting to your contention that he's not clutch and plays poorly under the pressure of a pass rush. I cited an example where that wasn't the case. I'm also basing it on my watching Tom Brady for his entire career, living here in Mass. Yes, I hate the Pats (due to their fans) but i can't ignore Brady's greatness.</P>


What some of you "tear the other guy down" people don't realize. When you denegrate Tom Brady, you cheapen the greatness of our two SB wins against the Pats. Makes no sense to me. One of the great things about those wins is that they came against an all time great QB.</P>


I guess we're supposed to think that our 2 SB's wins were "no big deal" since they were against a team and /or QB that you think isn't very good? Nonsense.</P>


Our wins were especially glorious because of the greatness of the opposition.</P>


You're trying to point out an incompete pass as an example of him playing well when pressured. You're reaching. Fact is he didn't look like the same player because he was pressured. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 throws..I'm talking about the duration o the game. How can you focus in on 2 throws when the guy looked pedestrianthroughout the majority of the game? I'm not faulting him for the sacks..Im talking about when he beat the rush but just could not deliver the ball. I live in Boston. I'm sure I've seen as much of Brady as you have and if you watch Brady as much as you say then why are you arguing what is obvious? The guy can't play when he's under seige. If you look at our regular season game at the Pats... again...pressure equaled INTS and poor throws. Sure he brought his team down for the go a head score but overall the pressure made him look and play like Poo. Of the veteran QBs I'd say Tom Brady is the most easily rattled by pass rush and this has nothing to do with loving or hating anyone. Its just a fact about Tom Brady's game. Take a look at the AFC conference championship game. Again Brady was pressured and Brady played poorly. And before you say ALL qbs suffer when pressured....turn on the tape of the NFC conference Championship game and watch our Quarterback actually become MORE poised and MORE accurate as the game went on and the hits piled up. You say his INT rate is low. I agree. But again we're talking about a QB who folds under pressure but doesn't see pressure most sundays. If you really watched Brady you'd see a guy who gets to step up into a clean pocket BY FAR more than any other QB in the NFL. (IN THE PAST MAYBE 30 years if we're being honest) And so we're clear no one "Lauded" Eli for putting up 17 points...(Though lets be honest..Steve Smith probably took 7 points off the board for us) Eli is lauded for making the greatest play in the history of the sport. Our SBs are great because they say we're the best in the biz. And when did I ever say that Brady isn't very good? I didn't. He's one of the great ones. All ive done is objectively point out a weakness in his game.</P>


I completely disagree that he gets rattled in the pocket. He reminds me of Phil Simms with the way he is willing to take the hit in order to complete a pass. His feet are as quite as any QB in the pocket.</P>


</P>

burier
06-28-2012, 03:54 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory?* I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


*</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


*</P>



*And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


*</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



*Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch*No, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap.* Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike few*QB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD.* And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>


Ok so you're actually going to use a game where Brady was able to muster just 14 points of offense as an example of him playing well when pressured? I don't follow.</P>


Haha.* You guys laud Eli in that game and he scored 17.* </P>


And "interception prone"?* The guy has a 2.2% int. rate.* thats off the charts great.</P>


I was reacting to your contention that he's not clutch and plays poorly under the pressure of a pass rush.* I cited an example where that wasn't the case.* I'm also basing it on my watching Tom Brady for his entire career, living here in Mass.* Yes, I hate the Pats (due to their fans) but i can't ignore Brady's greatness.</P>


What some of you "tear the other guy down" people don't realize.* When you denegrate Tom Brady, you cheapen the greatness of our two SB wins against the Pats.* Makes no sense to me.* One of the great things about those wins is that they came against an all time great QB.</P>


I guess we're supposed to think that our 2 SB's wins were "no big deal" since they were against a team and /or QB that you think isn't very good?* Nonsense.</P>


Our wins were especially glorious because of the greatness of the opposition.</P>


You're trying to point out an incompete pass as an example of him playing well when pressured. You're reaching. Fact is he didn't look like the same player because he was pressured. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 throws..I'm talking about the duration o the game. How can you focus in on 2 throws when the guy looked pedestrianthroughout the majority of the game? I'm not faulting him for the sacks..Im talking about when he beat the rush but just could not deliver the ball. I live in Boston. I'm sure I've seen as much of Brady as you have and if you watch Brady as much as you say then why are you arguing what is obvious? The guy can't play when he's under seige. If you look at our regular season game at the Pats... again...pressure equaled INTS and poor throws. Sure he brought his team down for the go a head score but overall the pressure made him look and play like Poo. Of the veteran QBs I'd say Tom Brady is the most easily rattled by pass rush and this has nothing to do with loving or hating anyone. Its just a fact about Tom Brady's game. Take a look at the AFC conference championship game. Again Brady was pressured and Brady played poorly. And before you say ALL qbs suffer when pressured....turn on the tape of the NFC conference Championship game and watch our Quarterback actually become MORE poised and MORE accurate as the game went on and the hits piled up. You say his INT rate is low. I agree. But again we're talking about a QB who folds under pressure but doesn't see pressure most sundays. If you really watched Brady you'd see a guy who gets to step up into a clean pocket BY FAR more than any other QB in the NFL. (IN THE PAST MAYBE 30 years if we're being honest) And so we're clear no one "Lauded" Eli for putting up 17 points...(Though lets be honest..Steve Smith probably took 7 points off the board for us) Eli is lauded for making the greatest play in the history of the sport. Our SBs are great because they say we're the best in the biz. And when did I ever say that Brady isn't very good? I didn't. He's one of the great ones. All ive done is objectively point out a weakness in his game.</P>


I completely disagree that he gets rattled in the pocket.* He reminds me of Phil Simms with the way he is willing to take the hit in order to complete a pass.* His feet are as quite as any QB in the pocket.</P>


*</P>

So then what happened in SB 42? Where'd the points go? weren't they averaging in the 30s per game?

What happened when met them in the regular season? He put up a multi pick day...and they were some ugly picks too.

What happened against Buffalo?

What happened in the conference championship? He actually apologized for playing so poorly.

Pop in the tape. You'll see what those games have in common.

Rudyy
06-28-2012, 05:01 PM
Looks like my prediction is about to come true.

Drez
06-28-2012, 06:50 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.

Diamondring
06-28-2012, 08:49 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.
No pass was on Brady. He is not a pefect qb and he does make mistakes. He was too excited and threw that ball too hard.

Drez
06-28-2012, 08:55 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.
No pass was on Brady. He is not a pefect qb and he does make mistakes. He was too excited and threw that ball too hard.
I know I'm on the right track if GWAT is disagreeing with me, lol.

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 09:08 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory? I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


</P>



And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutchNo, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap. Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike fewQB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD. And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>


Ok so you're actually going to use a game where Brady was able to muster just 14 points of offense as an example of him playing well when pressured? I don't follow.</P>


Haha. You guys laud Eli in that game and he scored 17. </P>


And "interception prone"? The guy has a 2.2% int. rate. thats off the charts great.</P>


I was reacting to your contention that he's not clutch and plays poorly under the pressure of a pass rush. I cited an example where that wasn't the case. I'm also basing it on my watching Tom Brady for his entire career, living here in Mass. Yes, I hate the Pats (due to their fans) but i can't ignore Brady's greatness.</P>


What some of you "tear the other guy down" people don't realize. When you denegrate Tom Brady, you cheapen the greatness of our two SB wins against the Pats. Makes no sense to me. One of the great things about those wins is that they came against an all time great QB.</P>


I guess we're supposed to think that our 2 SB's wins were "no big deal" since they were against a team and /or QB that you think isn't very good? Nonsense.</P>


Our wins were especially glorious because of the greatness of the opposition.</P>


You're trying to point out an incompete pass as an example of him playing well when pressured. You're reaching. Fact is he didn't look like the same player because he was pressured. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 throws..I'm talking about the duration o the game. How can you focus in on 2 throws when the guy looked pedestrianthroughout the majority of the game? I'm not faulting him for the sacks..Im talking about when he beat the rush but just could not deliver the ball. I live in Boston. I'm sure I've seen as much of Brady as you have and if you watch Brady as much as you say then why are you arguing what is obvious? The guy can't play when he's under seige. If you look at our regular season game at the Pats... again...pressure equaled INTS and poor throws. Sure he brought his team down for the go a head score but overall the pressure made him look and play like Poo. Of the veteran QBs I'd say Tom Brady is the most easily rattled by pass rush and this has nothing to do with loving or hating anyone. Its just a fact about Tom Brady's game. Take a look at the AFC conference championship game. Again Brady was pressured and Brady played poorly. And before you say ALL qbs suffer when pressured....turn on the tape of the NFC conference Championship game and watch our Quarterback actually become MORE poised and MORE accurate as the game went on and the hits piled up. You say his INT rate is low. I agree. But again we're talking about a QB who folds under pressure but doesn't see pressure most sundays. If you really watched Brady you'd see a guy who gets to step up into a clean pocket BY FAR more than any other QB in the NFL. (IN THE PAST MAYBE 30 years if we're being honest) And so we're clear no one "Lauded" Eli for putting up 17 points...(Though lets be honest..Steve Smith probably took 7 points off the board for us) Eli is lauded for making the greatest play in the history of the sport. Our SBs are great because they say we're the best in the biz. And when did I ever say that Brady isn't very good? I didn't. He's one of the great ones. All ive done is objectively point out a weakness in his game.</P>


I completely disagree that he gets rattled in the pocket. He reminds me of Phil Simms with the way he is willing to take the hit in order to complete a pass. His feet are as quite as any QB in the pocket.</P>


</P>


So then what happened in SB 42? Where'd the points go? weren't they averaging in the 30s per game? What happened when met them in the regular season? He put up a multi pick day...and they were some ugly picks too. What happened against Buffalo? What happened in the conference championship? He actually apologized for playing so poorly. Pop in the tape. You'll see what those games have in common.</P>


What happened is that we played great defense. Deal with it. The Giants were great and we had two glorious wins. You're attempt to deminish them by degrading the opposition is a major fail!</P>

Diamondring
06-28-2012, 09:23 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.
No pass was on Brady. He is not a pefect qb and he does make mistakes. He was too excited and threw that ball too hard.
I know I'm on the right track if GWAT is disagreeing with me, lol.
Hey, saying I am GWAT does not hurt me since I brought it up some time back. Yet I know one thing. if a lot of arguements I had with posters would have kept on goin, I would have won many of the arguements I had with them.

Yes that pass was on Brady and if he was so perfect, he would have beaten the Jets a year ago in the playoffs the second time. He made a lot of bad passes in that playoff game my friend. Ball was throw too hard hehe.

giantsfan420
06-28-2012, 09:24 PM
drez-

i recall it differently. I remember there was a mixup on the coverage. our corner and safety werent on the same page and blew the coverage. it seemed to me that the play was up the seam.
i dunno why people keep insinuating KP was roaming and right there to lay out welker or make an int...he may have been in welkers vicinity, and prob coulda takcled him right after the catch, but welker was wide open. he was running the seam. i fail to see how that reason is valid that welker should have done something different and it was his fault and not bradys. welker was WIDE OPEN...
the throw was off imho. but i dont think one person can be blamed over the other in this case.

MS-
I agree with much of what ur saying, but Brady does not have the quickest feet or the most mobile in the pocket...lmfao are u kidding? he has like concrete feet really. He has a clean pocket repeatedly, unlike any OL i've seen give their QB. He stands tall and is the definition of the proper throwing mechanics when standing tall...but when u force him to start moving and moving around, he does start making mistakes and he does look awkward and he does play at a worse, avg looking level.

in ur mind u may think thats me trying to tear down brady to prop up eli, but im not saying brady isnt one of the all time greats. he is. and hes an amazing qb. that doesnt mean i cant objectively make a comment about him. ironic bc thats what u claim to do in those eli gaffs...but yeah i thought it was common knowledge that u pressure brady and he becomes a completely diff qb. while that is true for most qbs, the truly great ones stare pressure down and rise their game. Brady does that, but under pressure he just does not make the same kinda plays or have near the success as when he has that clean pocket.

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 09:44 PM
drez- i recall it differently. I remember there was a mixup on the coverage. our corner and safety werent on the same page and blew the coverage. it seemed to me that the play was up the seam. i dunno why people keep insinuating KP was roaming and right there to lay out welker or make an int...he may have been in welkers vicinity, and prob coulda takcled him right after the catch, but welker was wide open. he was running the seam. i fail to see how that reason is valid that welker should have done something different and it was his fault and not bradys. welker was WIDE OPEN... the throw was off imho. but i dont think one person can be blamed over the other in this case. MS- I agree with much of what ur saying, but Brady does not have the quickest feet or the most mobile in the pocket...lmfao are u kidding? he has like concrete feet really. He has a clean pocket repeatedly, unlike any OL i've seen give their QB. He stands tall and is the definition of the proper throwing mechanics when standing tall...but when u force him to start moving and moving around, he does start making mistakes and he does look awkward and he does play at a worse, avg looking level. in ur mind u may think thats me trying to tear down brady to prop up eli, but im not saying brady isnt one of the all time greats. he is. and hes an amazing qb. that doesnt mean i cant objectively make a comment about him. ironic bc thats what u claim to do in those eli gaffs...but yeah i thought it was common knowledge that u pressure brady and he becomes a completely diff qb. while that is true for most qbs, the truly great ones stare pressure down and rise their game. Brady does that, but under pressure he just does not make the same kinda plays or have near the success as when he has that clean pocket.</P>


My point was that Brady's feet are calm. No happy feet. Coincidentally, Peyton has happy feet in the pocket. That isn't always a bad thing, Peyton makes it work, but its amazing how quite Brady's feet are in the pocket. No panic at all.</P>


And what in God's name does Eli have to do with this?</P>

Drez
06-28-2012, 09:52 PM
drez-

i recall it differently. I remember there was a mixup on the coverage. our corner and safety werent on the same page and blew the coverage. it seemed to me that the play was up the seam.
i dunno why people keep insinuating KP was roaming and right there to lay out welker or make an int...he may have been in welkers vicinity, and prob coulda takcled him right after the catch, but welker was wide open. he was running the seam. i fail to see how that reason is valid that welker should have done something different and it was his fault and not bradys. welker was WIDE OPEN...
the throw was off imho. but i dont think one person can be blamed over the other in this case.

MS-
I agree with much of what ur saying, but Brady does not have the quickest feet or the most mobile in the pocket...lmfao are u kidding? he has like concrete feet really. He has a clean pocket repeatedly, unlike any OL i've seen give their QB. He stands tall and is the definition of the proper throwing mechanics when standing tall...but when u force him to start moving and moving around, he does start making mistakes and he does look awkward and he does play at a worse, avg looking level.

in ur mind u may think thats me trying to tear down brady to prop up eli, but im not saying brady isnt one of the all time greats. he is. and hes an amazing qb. that doesnt mean i cant objectively make a comment about him. ironic bc thats what u claim to do in those eli gaffs...but yeah i thought it was common knowledge that u pressure brady and he becomes a completely diff qb. while that is true for most qbs, the truly great ones stare pressure down and rise their game. Brady does that, but under pressure he just does not make the same kinda plays or have near the success as when he has that clean pocket.
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3876615&amp;t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/3876615/welker-drop.html)

So, you're saying that if Brady led Welker up the seam, he wouldn't have thrown him right into KP?

As we can see, Welker was looking for the ball up the seam when he should have realized the ball was going to go to his other shoulder. Had he not been looking back over his right side for 15 yards he would have realized that KP was coming at him up the seam and to go to the outside for the ball.

jomo
06-28-2012, 09:56 PM
This shouldn't surprise anyone. We've got a 5 year or more run to compare the two and anyone except the most die hard of Cowboy fans would agree. Romo is a very good fantasy football quarterback until he makes a deep run in the playoff and leads his team to victory in huge games.

yoeddy
06-28-2012, 10:00 PM
drez-

i recall it differently. I remember there was a mixup on the coverage. our corner and safety werent on the same page and blew the coverage. it seemed to me that the play was up the seam.
i dunno why people keep insinuating KP was roaming and right there to lay out welker or make an int...he may have been in welkers vicinity, and prob coulda takcled him right after the catch, but welker was wide open. he was running the seam. i fail to see how that reason is valid that welker should have done something different and it was his fault and not bradys. welker was WIDE OPEN...
the throw was off imho. but i dont think one person can be blamed over the other in this case.

MS-
I agree with much of what ur saying, but Brady does not have the quickest feet or the most mobile in the pocket...lmfao are u kidding? he has like concrete feet really. He has a clean pocket repeatedly, unlike any OL i've seen give their QB. He stands tall and is the definition of the proper throwing mechanics when standing tall...but when u force him to start moving and moving around, he does start making mistakes and he does look awkward and he does play at a worse, avg looking level.

in ur mind u may think thats me trying to tear down brady to prop up eli, but im not saying brady isnt one of the all time greats. he is. and hes an amazing qb. that doesnt mean i cant objectively make a comment about him. ironic bc thats what u claim to do in those eli gaffs...but yeah i thought it was common knowledge that u pressure brady and he becomes a completely diff qb. while that is true for most qbs, the truly great ones stare pressure down and rise their game. Brady does that, but under pressure he just does not make the same kinda plays or have near the success as when he has that clean pocket.
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3876615&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/3876615/welker-drop.html)

So, you're saying that if Brady led Welker up the seam, he wouldn't have thrown him right into KP?

As we can see, Welker was looking for the ball up the seam when he should have realized the ball was going to go to his other shoulder. Had he not been looking back over his right side for 15 yards he would have realized that KP was coming at him up the seam and to go to the outside for the ball.


Welker should have trapped the ball against his helmet...

Drez
06-28-2012, 10:02 PM
Welker should have trapped the ball against his helmet...
LMAO!! [B]

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 10:07 PM
drez- i recall it differently. I remember there was a mixup on the coverage. our corner and safety werent on the same page and blew the coverage. it seemed to me that the play was up the seam. i dunno why people keep insinuating KP was roaming and right there to lay out welker or make an int...he may have been in welkers vicinity, and prob coulda takcled him right after the catch, but welker was wide open. he was running the seam. i fail to see how that reason is valid that welker should have done something different and it was his fault and not bradys. welker was WIDE OPEN... the throw was off imho. but i dont think one person can be blamed over the other in this case. MS- I agree with much of what ur saying, but Brady does not have the quickest feet or the most mobile in the pocket...lmfao are u kidding? he has like concrete feet really. He has a clean pocket repeatedly, unlike any OL i've seen give their QB. He stands tall and is the definition of the proper throwing mechanics when standing tall...but when u force him to start moving and moving around, he does start making mistakes and he does look awkward and he does play at a worse, avg looking level. in ur mind u may think thats me trying to tear down brady to prop up eli, but im not saying brady isnt one of the all time greats. he is. and hes an amazing qb. that doesnt mean i cant objectively make a comment about him. ironic bc thats what u claim to do in those eli gaffs...but yeah i thought it was common knowledge that u pressure brady and he becomes a completely diff qb. while that is true for most qbs, the truly great ones stare pressure down and rise their game. Brady does that, but under pressure he just does not make the same kinda plays or have near the success as when he has that clean pocket.
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3876615&amp;t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/3876615/welker-drop.html)

So, you're saying that if Brady led Welker up the seam, he wouldn't have thrown him right into KP?

As we can see, Welker was looking for the ball up the seam when he should have realized the ball was going to go to his other shoulder. Had he not been looking back over his right side for 15 yards he would have realized that KP was coming at him up the seam and to go to the outside for the ball.
</P>


Looks to me that Brady threw it exactly where he should have. That was an easy catch and the kid dropped it. If he had thrown that inside, KP definately had a play.</P>


That was the game. He dropped an easy one and Manningham made the play he had no business making. Sometimes in the NFL it comes down to a few plays......and who makes them.</P>

Drez
06-28-2012, 10:17 PM
drez- i recall it differently. I remember there was a mixup on the coverage. our corner and safety werent on the same page and blew the coverage. it seemed to me that the play was up the seam. i dunno why people keep insinuating KP was roaming and right there to lay out welker or make an int...he may have been in welkers vicinity, and prob coulda takcled him right after the catch, but welker was wide open. he was running the seam. i fail to see how that reason is valid that welker should have done something different and it was his fault and not bradys. welker was WIDE OPEN... the throw was off imho. but i dont think one person can be blamed over the other in this case. MS- I agree with much of what ur saying, but Brady does not have the quickest feet or the most mobile in the pocket...lmfao are u kidding? he has like concrete feet really. He has a clean pocket repeatedly, unlike any OL i've seen give their QB. He stands tall and is the definition of the proper throwing mechanics when standing tall...but when u force him to start moving and moving around, he does start making mistakes and he does look awkward and he does play at a worse, avg looking level. in ur mind u may think thats me trying to tear down brady to prop up eli, but im not saying brady isnt one of the all time greats. he is. and hes an amazing qb. that doesnt mean i cant objectively make a comment about him. ironic bc thats what u claim to do in those eli gaffs...but yeah i thought it was common knowledge that u pressure brady and he becomes a completely diff qb. while that is true for most qbs, the truly great ones stare pressure down and rise their game. Brady does that, but under pressure he just does not make the same kinda plays or have near the success as when he has that clean pocket.
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3876615&amp;t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/3876615/welker-drop.html)

So, you're saying that if Brady led Welker up the seam, he wouldn't have thrown him right into KP?

As we can see, Welker was looking for the ball up the seam when he should have realized the ball was going to go to his other shoulder. Had he not been looking back over his right side for 15 yards he would have realized that KP was coming at him up the seam and to go to the outside for the ball.
</p>


Looks to me that Brady threw it exactly where he should have. That was an easy catch and the kid dropped it. If he had thrown that inside, KP definately had a play.</p>


That was the game. He dropped an easy one and Manningham made the play he had no business making. Sometimes in the NFL it comes down to a few plays......and who makes them.</p>
Well, the Welker play would have been easy had he adjusted properly, but as he hadn't the attempted catch was a lot harder than it needed to be. Granted, most of the time he makes that play anyway, but with the way it unfolded he just didn't.

Why was the MM play one that he shouldn't have made? That's some BS if I ever heard some. It was a nice sideline grab, one that is made routinely in the NFL.

giantsfan420
06-28-2012, 10:18 PM
thanks for the clip.

yes, i believe welker was running and ran the seam route, and was wide open. had it been inside, sure KP makes the tackle right away. He wouldnt have had a play on the ball imo.

and welker was running the seam, and brady either threw the out or was expecting welker to sit in the zone.
either way, i stand by my statement that i dont think u can blame one player over the other, both didnt execute....yeah in watching that clip repeatedly kp would have had no shot at the ball, he could have tackled welker right away tho...the throw was off welker even is adjusting his route drifting towards the sideline after finding the hole in the bracket coverage.

edit-watch the clip and imagine if welker reaches for the ball towards the inside. kp would have been at welker in a couple steps and a couple steps in the nfl is wide open, which welker was.

giantsfan420
06-28-2012, 10:21 PM
i still dont know how welker didnt make that catch tho, he does catch that 99 out of 100 times

Drez
06-28-2012, 10:24 PM
thanks for the clip.

yes, i believe welker was running and ran the seam route, and was wide open. had it been inside, sure KP makes the tackle right away. He wouldnt have had a play on the ball imo.

and welker was running the seam, and brady either threw the out or was expecting welker to sit in the zone.
either way, i stand by my statement that i dont think u can blame one player over the other, both didnt execute....yeah in watching that clip repeatedly kp would have had no shot at the ball, he could have tackled welker right away tho...the throw was off welker even is adjusting his route drifting towards the sideline after finding the hole in the bracket coverage.
I never said that KP would have had a play on the ball, only that Welker would have been thrown right into him. They'd still be scraping pieces of Welker off the turf at Lucas Oil Field had Brady thrown him up the seam.

I'm just saying Brady needed to throw the ball to the other side of Welker and that Welker should have realized that Brady could not throw him up the seam. Had Welker not been looking back while running upfield for 15 yards, he would have been able to adjust his body properly for an easy catch. To me, that's on Welker not realizing the coverage in time, not Brady not throwing the ball to the right spot.

Neverend
06-28-2012, 10:31 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

but i think brady threw that pass to welker outside shoulder influenced because of KP's inside leverage. However, Brady overestimated KP's coverage, I don't think KP makes the play. Welker also seemed to slow it down because of KP (before he turned for the ball and had to immediately adjust)

That play could have gone either way. Thank goodness it didn't!

buffyblue
06-28-2012, 10:32 PM
Tom Brady threw that ball where only Wes Welker could have caught it. If he went up the seam, KP has a good shot of picking it off or annihilating Wes Welker on the play.

Tom Brady is going to go down as one of the best QBs and I think he will still be playing at ELIte level that he has been for a few more years. I think he is very clutch and I really don’t see how folks think he is on some great decline. He threw for over 5,000 yards last season and led NE Patriots to a 10 game winning streak.

The pass to Mario Manningham should have been caught. It was a perfect throw. It didn’t surprise me because MM usually can make those type of catches on the sidelines but miss the easy ones.

Tom Brady is still an awesome QB and he is still very clutch. Right now however, I would take Eli Manning over him. Heck I would take Eli Manning as my QB over anyone. Then again I am a NY Giants fan and Eli Manning is my favorite NY Giant ever but I guess it is okay to be a little biased when it a player from your team.

Drez
06-28-2012, 10:35 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

And that's my one big issue with PF. He likes to be too cute. He's got these coverages where if everyone does everything perfect will be nice and confusing on the QB. Unfortunately, however, the coverages are equally confusing for the guys executing it.

Neverend
06-28-2012, 10:38 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

And that's my one big issue with PF. He likes to be too cute. He's got these coverages where if everyone does everything perfect will be nice and confusing on the QB. Unfortunately, however, the coverages are equally confusing for the guys executing it.


yeah, after the 2nd redskins game he called his coverages "special" and "unique". Yeah, special and unique at confusing players -- particularly young players (like prince) trying to do these silly coverage concepts

but credit to him for turning it around. but in my opinion he deserved all the criticism he was getting during the season

buffyblue
06-28-2012, 10:42 PM
Brady is without a signature drive. All the great clutch Quarterbacks have one but he doesn't. Does Brady even have a significant come back victory?* I do believe he has a couple drives in Super Bowls to set up game winning FGs to answer the question. Sure, he didn't need or score a TD, but he did what was needed for his team to win. No?</P>


*</P>



And I think a player whos scouting report says "Pressure him and he crumbles" can't really be considered especially clutch. That's every QB on the planet 95% of the time. </P>


*</P>



*And that throw to Wes was PISS POOR The pass was fine. It might have been over thrown by like 3 inches, but all in all, if Welker adjusts to the defense properly and realizes that Brady can't throw him up the seam, then he catches the ball. Even still, Welker managed to get two hands on it. If we make the claim that any pass that Eli's WRs tipped up for picks were on them, then would this not be the same for Brady and Welker?</P>


*</P>



God forbid if Eli had thrown that ball. We'd still be arguing about how much of a choker Eli is Probably true.</P>



Brady threw a bad pass and didn't even take the blame for it which is the opposite of clutch.Should Brady have thrown the ball up the seam and led Welker right into KP? Would that have been clutch?</P>



*Losing twice in the SB as the favorite is the opposite of clutch*No, it means he just lost to a QB that was more clutch.</P>



You mention his go ahead score in SB 42 but the fact that he needed to go ahead in the 4th of that game IS THE OPPOSITE OF CLUTCH. So, would that mean that Eli isn't clutch, because as we all know he's needed a couple of 4Q TDs to win a few games, including the last three games against Brady and the Pats (and 2 scores in the fourth in two of those games, too).</P>



And whatever clutchness he did display in that game was pulverized by the Great Eli Manning. As a matter of fact anytime Eli is on the same field as Brady...Brady comes off looking like Eli's son. Brady built a reputation for being clutch by getting his team in field goal range.</P>


So, it's only clutch when Eli leads his team on a late score and not Brady? C'mon man. I'm as big of an Eli homer as their is, but at least try and be consistent in your thought process.</P>


1) He did what he team needed to win...but it doesn't equal an iconic signature drive. Just an observation. Who's in your top 5 QBs ever? At least 4 of them will have that signature TD drive in the big game. 2) No QB wants to be pressured or hit. But Brady takes it beyond the normal 95 percent your talking about. The man looks unbeatable until you pressure him...Then he fold up like a lawn chair. 3) We can go round around about the quality of the throw. I've heard the arguments about Brady basically throwing away from coverage. I look at like whatever the situation was Welker wasn't in a postion to bring in the ball based on where the ball was placed. Welker contorted his body to create the illusion of catchability. I'm willing to give Eli a pass on the balls that his the recievers in the face and then bounced up for INTs. If Nicks had to do a pirouette just to get his hands on the ball and then it gets picked Eli gets no sympothy from me. 4) Definately true. 5) A better question would be.."Should Brady have thrown ball to Welker at all?" If we're meant to believe he lost on his route and was so well covered. I'd say throwing to the open man would have been more clutch. 6) semantics. 7) I admit I'm using a bit of hyperbole here but you do need to get the W to get the clutch tag. 8) Just to repeat the previous point..Its clutch when you get the Win. Anything Brady did ion the superbowl is like..Clutch's ugly cousin.</P>


Thats crap.* Brady stands as tall in the pocket and is willing to take hits to wait for a guy to break open alike few*QB's I've ever seen.</P>


We saw him get knocked on his *** 19 times in SB 42, and then march his team down the field for a go ahead TD.* And did you see the 70 yard pass laid right on the hands of Randy Moss the play after he was planted by Jay Alford?</P>


No sir....you're evaluation of Tom Brady is way way off.</P>


Ok so you're actually going to use a game where Brady was able to muster just 14 points of offense as an example of him playing well when pressured? I don't follow.</P>


Haha.* You guys laud Eli in that game and he scored 17.* </P>


And "interception prone"?* The guy has a 2.2% int. rate.* thats off the charts great.</P>


I was reacting to your contention that he's not clutch and plays poorly under the pressure of a pass rush.* I cited an example where that wasn't the case.* I'm also basing it on my watching Tom Brady for his entire career, living here in Mass.* Yes, I hate the Pats (due to their fans) but i can't ignore Brady's greatness.</P>


What some of you "tear the other guy down" people don't realize.* When you denegrate Tom Brady, you cheapen the greatness of our two SB wins against the Pats.* Makes no sense to me.* One of the great things about those wins is that they came against an all time great QB.</P>


I guess we're supposed to think that our 2 SB's wins were "no big deal" since they were against a team and /or QB that you think isn't very good?* Nonsense.</P>


Our wins were especially glorious because of the greatness of the opposition.</P>

Eli Manning put up 17 points against the 4th rated defense in the NFL in SuperBowl XLII.

I agree that our wins were especially glorious because of the greatness of the oppossition.

Drez
06-28-2012, 10:42 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

And that's my one big issue with PF. He likes to be too cute. He's got these coverages where if everyone does everything perfect will be nice and confusing on the QB. Unfortunately, however, the coverages are equally confusing for the guys executing it.


yeah, after the 2nd redskins game he called his coverages "special" and "unique". Yeah, special and unique at confusing players -- particularly young players (like prince) trying to do these silly coverage concepts

but credit to him for turning it around. but in my opinion he deserved all the criticism he was getting during the season
Agreed.

buffyblue
06-28-2012, 10:53 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

And that's my one big issue with PF. He likes to be too cute. He's got these coverages where if everyone does everything perfect will be nice and confusing on the QB. Unfortunately, however, the coverages are equally confusing for the guys executing it.


yeah, after the 2nd redskins game he called his coverages "special" and "unique". Yeah, special and unique at confusing players -- particularly young players (like prince) trying to do these silly coverage concepts

but credit to him for turning it around. but in my opinion he deserved all the criticism he was getting during the season
Agreed.



I agree that he deserved the criticism too. Of course getting players back helped greatly but I think that when PF “simplified” the defense and “let the guys play” that it was a big step.

Drez
06-28-2012, 10:57 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

And that's my one big issue with PF. He likes to be too cute. He's got these coverages where if everyone does everything perfect will be nice and confusing on the QB. Unfortunately, however, the coverages are equally confusing for the guys executing it.


yeah, after the 2nd redskins game he called his coverages "special" and "unique". Yeah, special and unique at confusing players -- particularly young players (like prince) trying to do these silly coverage concepts

but credit to him for turning it around. but in my opinion he deserved all the criticism he was getting during the season
Agreed.



I agree that he deserved the criticism too. Of course getting players back helped greatly but I think that when PF “simplified” the defense and “let the guys play” that it was a big step.
Yeah. I think he makes his coverages so complex sometimes that the guys can't just go out there and ball out. Instead, they're out there thinking about what they should be doing instead of just going out there and doing it. And that spells death in the NFL.

giantsfan420
06-28-2012, 10:58 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

but i think brady threw that pass to welker outside shoulder influenced because of KP's inside leverage. However, Brady overestimated KP's coverage, I don't think KP makes the play. Welker also seemed to slow it down because of KP (before he turned for the ball and had to immediately adjust)

That play could have gone either way. Thank goodness it didn't!

perfectly said imo

Diamondring
06-28-2012, 10:58 PM
drez-

i recall it differently. I remember there was a mixup on the coverage. our corner and safety werent on the same page and blew the coverage. it seemed to me that the play was up the seam.
i dunno why people keep insinuating KP was roaming and right there to lay out welker or make an int...he may have been in welkers vicinity, and prob coulda takcled him right after the catch, but welker was wide open. he was running the seam. i fail to see how that reason is valid that welker should have done something different and it was his fault and not bradys. welker was WIDE OPEN...
the throw was off imho. but i dont think one person can be blamed over the other in this case.

MS-
I agree with much of what ur saying, but Brady does not have the quickest feet or the most mobile in the pocket...lmfao are u kidding? he has like concrete feet really. He has a clean pocket repeatedly, unlike any OL i've seen give their QB. He stands tall and is the definition of the proper throwing mechanics when standing tall...but when u force him to start moving and moving around, he does start making mistakes and he does look awkward and he does play at a worse, avg looking level.

in ur mind u may think thats me trying to tear down brady to prop up eli, but im not saying brady isnt one of the all time greats. he is. and hes an amazing qb. that doesnt mean i cant objectively make a comment about him. ironic bc thats what u claim to do in those eli gaffs...but yeah i thought it was common knowledge that u pressure brady and he becomes a completely diff qb. while that is true for most qbs, the truly great ones stare pressure down and rise their game. Brady does that, but under pressure he just does not make the same kinda plays or have near the success as when he has that clean pocket.
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3876615&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/3876615/welker-drop.html)

So, you're saying that if Brady led Welker up the seam, he wouldn't have thrown him right into KP?

As we can see, Welker was looking for the ball up the seam when he should have realized the ball was going to go to his other shoulder. Had he not been looking back over his right side for 15 yards he would have realized that KP was coming at him up the seam and to go to the outside for the ball.
Hey, you need to speed that play up more. It will show you more clearly that you are wrong. Anybody can see that play on youtube at the right speed so check it out and see what Drez said was true.

giantsfan420
06-28-2012, 11:04 PM
lol drez i think he disagrees with both of us somehow...

Drez
06-28-2012, 11:13 PM
lol drez i think he disagrees with both of us somehow...
It's GWAT, what do you expect?

Diamondring
06-28-2012, 11:16 PM
lol drez i think he disagrees with both of us somehow...Hey budd, I played football for many years and at the right speed, you can't judge what players can do looking at film all of the time since both players are on the playing field and things look different.
This is why some coordinators like to do their job in the booth. Look at the film at the regular speed not in slow motion.

Diamondring
06-28-2012, 11:19 PM
lol drez i think he disagrees with both of us somehow...
It's GWAT, what do you expect?
Real football knowledge not mechanicle thinking like a lot of you on these messageboards.

giantsfan420
06-28-2012, 11:21 PM
lol drez i think he disagrees with both of us somehow...Hey budd, I played football for many years and at the right speed, you can't judge what players can do looking at film all of the time since both players are on the playing field and things look different.
This is why some coordinators like to do their job in the booth. Look at the film at the regular speed not in slow motion.

i dont think any of that makes sense on any level. no offense

Morehead State
06-28-2012, 11:27 PM
Putting all your back and forth aside, if you look at the film you see that at the time the pass was made, Brady had to throw it nearer to the sidelines. KP was in perfect position inside. After the pass was in the air, KP made a very defensive move downfield to protect against the catch and run and a possible TD. It was actually a terrible move given the game situation.</P>


To me, that pass was exactly where it had to be. He was able to turn and get both hands on the throw. That drop was all on Welker.</P>

Neverend
06-28-2012, 11:39 PM
That entire defense looks confusing

It looks like rolle is following him in man coverage, then it looks like rolle has man underneath responsibility, and then it looks rolle is playing a zone. I mean, what the holy hell is Rolle doing? Epic defensive miscommunication that could've possbily cost the giants the game

but i think brady threw that pass to welker outside shoulder influenced because of KP's inside leverage. However, Brady overestimated KP's coverage, I don't think KP makes the play. Welker also seemed to slow it down because of KP (before he turned for the ball and had to immediately adjust)

That play could have gone either way. Thank goodness it didn't!

perfectly said imo

thanks

Neverend
06-28-2012, 11:41 PM
Putting all your back and forth aside, if you look at the film you see that at the time the pass was made, Brady had to throw it nearer to the sidelines.* KP was in perfect position inside. After the pass was in the air, KP made a very defensive move downfield to protect against the catch and run and a possible TD.* It was actually a terrible move given the game situation.</P>


To me, that pass was exactly where it had to be.* He was able to turn and get both hands on the throw.* That drop was all on Welker.</P>

If welker catches that and the pats win the game -- brady is showered with all sorts of praise. not at the level of eli's throw to manningham, but they'd be praising the ball location of bradys throw to welker and how he got it away from kenny phillips. theyll gush over how welker elevated and made a great catch. brady is clutch. etc. etc.

amazing how the superbowl arguably came down to two separate plays

Drez
06-28-2012, 11:45 PM
Putting all your back and forth aside, if you look at the film you see that at the time the pass was made, Brady had to throw it nearer to the sidelines. KP was in perfect position inside. After the pass was in the air, KP made a very defensive move downfield to protect against the catch and run and a possible TD. It was actually a terrible move given the game situation.</p>


To me, that pass was exactly where it had to be. He was able to turn and get both hands on the throw. That drop was all on Welker.</p>

If welker catches that and the pats win the game -- brady is showered with all sorts of praise. not at the level of eli's throw to manningham, but they'd be praising the ball location of bradys throw to welker and how he got it away from kenny phillips. theyll gush over how welker elevated and made a great catch. brady is clutch. etc. etc.

amazing how the superbowl arguably came down to two separate plays
Most great, close games do. Which team is able to make the play that counts wins and the one that does not loses.

Neverend
06-28-2012, 11:59 PM
Putting all your back and forth aside, if you look at the film you see that at the time the pass was made, Brady had to throw it nearer to the sidelines.* KP was in perfect position inside. After the pass was in the air, KP made a very defensive move downfield to protect against the catch and run and a possible TD.* It was actually a terrible move given the game situation.</p>


To me, that pass was exactly where it had to be.* He was able to turn and get both hands on the throw.* That drop was all on Welker.</p>

If welker catches that and the pats win the game -- brady is showered with all sorts of praise. not at the level of eli's throw to manningham, but they'd be praising the ball location of bradys throw to welker and how he got it away from kenny phillips. theyll gush over how welker elevated and made a great catch. brady is clutch. etc. etc.

amazing how the superbowl arguably came down to two separate plays
Most great, close games do. Which team is able to make the play that counts wins and the one that does not loses.


Agree. Its just how nearly identical the two game defining plays are is what makes it fascinating to me. both needed a perfect blend of execution and flawless ball placement to execute the two plays

its ridiculous for pats fans or haters to suggest "if welker catches that ball, they lose". they make it sound like the pats lost that game instead of the giants winning it. the giants had to execute a far more dificult pass/catch and made the play. they deserved the win, but the blind will never see it

Roswell777
06-29-2012, 12:03 AM
I think the fact that you guys are now mentioning Eli and Brady in comparative terms demonstrates how far Eli has come in the last few years.

Brady is an all time great. And Eli is knocking on the door.

Romo, not even close. Very good, but not great.

Roswell777
06-29-2012, 12:09 AM
As far as the Welker missed opportunity, I think that play is on both players.

Yes it hit Welkers hands, but I've never subscribed to the inane theory that if it hits your hands you should catch it. Way too simplistic for me. Too many other factors to consider. If you've ever played receiver you know that sometimes when you change direction there is a split second where you are caught between strides and you cannot elevate in the manner that you are used to.

I feel that is what happened to Welker. He got his hands on it but he was twisting and was mid stride.

As far as Brady's role in the play, he needed to throw that pass in the manner he did but just a bit lower.

Drez
06-29-2012, 12:15 AM
As far as the Welker missed opportunity, I think that play is on both players.

Yes it hit Welkers hands, but I've never subscribed to the inane theory that if it hits your hands you should catch it. Way too simplistic for me. Too many other factors to consider. If you've ever played receiver you know that sometimes when you change direction there is a split second where you are caught between strides and you cannot elevate in the manner that you are used to.

I feel that is what happened to Welker. He got his hands on it but he was twisting and was mid stride.

As far as Brady's role in the play, he needed to throw that pass in the manner he did but just a bit lower.
See the reason I think it's on Welker is he should have realized sooner that the pass was coming in on the outside and not up the seam/post. He just showed poor awareness/recognition on the play.

BigBlue1971
06-29-2012, 12:39 AM
I think the fact that you guys are now mentioning Eli and Brady in comparative terms demonstrates how far Eli has come in the last few years. Brady is an all time great. And Eli is knocking on the door. Romo, not even close. Very good, but not great.</P>


</P>


^this!</P>


Eli may be the clutchest of them all! i'd take him over any of 'em!</P>

Roswell777
06-29-2012, 12:43 AM
I think the fact that you guys are now mentioning Eli and Brady in comparative terms demonstrates how far Eli has come in the last few years. Brady is an all time great. And Eli is knocking on the door. Romo, not even close. Very good, but not great.</P>


*</P>


^this!</P>


Eli may be the clutchest of them all!* i'd take him over any of 'em!</P>

One more SB win on a late TD drive and it would be hard to say anyone was a more clutch QB than Eli Manning.

Roswell777
06-29-2012, 12:49 AM
As far as the Welker missed opportunity, I think that play is on both players.

Yes it hit Welkers hands, but I've never subscribed to the inane theory that if it hits your hands you should catch it. Way too simplistic for me. Too many other factors to consider. If you've ever played receiver you know that sometimes when you change direction there is a split second where you are caught between strides and you cannot elevate in the manner that you are used to.

I feel that is what happened to Welker. He got his hands on it but he was twisting and was mid stride.

As far as Brady's role in the play, he needed to throw that pass in the manner he did but just a bit lower.
See the reason I think it's on Welker is he should have realized sooner that the pass was coming in on the outside and not up the seam/post. He just showed poor awareness/recognition on the play.


Fair to say, but we are watching this play over and over from above and not thru Welker's helmet. Split second play, split second decision.

I thought the throw was a little bit off even for the back shoulder, and felt it was on both of them.

On the other hand, I thought Eli was never really given the amount of credit he was due for the throw he made to Manningham. It was an excellent catch but I thought it was one of the best throws I've ever seen.

Diamondring
06-29-2012, 12:51 AM
lol drez i think he disagrees with both of us somehow...Hey budd, I played football for many years and at the right speed, you can't judge what players can do looking at film all of the time since both players are on the playing field and things look different.
This is why some coordinators like to do their job in the booth. Look at the film at the regular speed not in slow motion.

i dont think any of that makes sense on any level. no offenseWhat ever but I know one thing, go on youtube and I bet no other person think the same way as your friend but you want to go against me and make me look like I was wrong. Go on youtube again and look at the play at regular speed.

Drez
06-29-2012, 12:54 AM
As far as the Welker missed opportunity, I think that play is on both players.

Yes it hit Welkers hands, but I've never subscribed to the inane theory that if it hits your hands you should catch it. Way too simplistic for me. Too many other factors to consider. If you've ever played receiver you know that sometimes when you change direction there is a split second where you are caught between strides and you cannot elevate in the manner that you are used to.

I feel that is what happened to Welker. He got his hands on it but he was twisting and was mid stride.

As far as Brady's role in the play, he needed to throw that pass in the manner he did but just a bit lower.
See the reason I think it's on Welker is he should have realized sooner that the pass was coming in on the outside and not up the seam/post. He just showed poor awareness/recognition on the play.


Fair to say, but we are watching this play over and over from above and not thru Welker's helmet. Split second play, split second decision.

I thought the throw was a little bit off even for the back shoulder, and felt it was on both of them.

On the other hand, I thought Eli was never really given the amount of credit he was due for the throw he made to Manningham. It was an excellent catch but I thought it was one of the best throws I've ever seen.

Well, in the clip above you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10-15 yards. Had he looked forward even once in that time he would have seen that Brady needed to put the ball outside, which would have allowed him time to adjust his route properly.

And agreed on the MM catch. I even said that to my family and friends during the game when they were going nuts about the catch. I was like, "That catch was great, but that throw was freaking perfect!"

Diamondring
06-29-2012, 05:36 AM
As far as the Welker missed opportunity, I think that play is on both players.

Yes it hit Welkers hands, but I've never subscribed to the inane theory that if it hits your hands you should catch it. Way too simplistic for me. Too many other factors to consider. If you've ever played receiver you know that sometimes when you change direction there is a split second where you are caught between strides and you cannot elevate in the manner that you are used to.

I feel that is what happened to Welker. He got his hands on it but he was twisting and was mid stride.

As far as Brady's role in the play, he needed to throw that pass in the manner he did but just a bit lower.
See the reason I think it's on Welker is he should have realized sooner that the pass was coming in on the outside and not up the seam/post. He just showed poor awareness/recognition on the play.


Fair to say, but we are watching this play over and over from above and not thru Welker's helmet. Split second play, split second decision.

I thought the throw was a little bit off even for the back shoulder, and felt it was on both of them.

On the other hand, I thought Eli was never really given the amount of credit he was due for the throw he made to Manningham. It was an excellent catch but I thought it was one of the best throws I've ever seen.Now what you have said makes more sense than the other guy who still didn't read about the part you said we have to look through Welkers Helmet wich I think it means we have to think ourselves as being him on the field? Things are much different being on the field at faster speed than looking at them on your computer screen at home

Roswell777
06-29-2012, 07:53 AM
As far as the Welker missed opportunity, I think that play is on both players.

Yes it hit Welkers hands, but I've never subscribed to the inane theory that if it hits your hands you should catch it. Way too simplistic for me. Too many other factors to consider. If you've ever played receiver you know that sometimes when you change direction there is a split second where you are caught between strides and you cannot elevate in the manner that you are used to.

I feel that is what happened to Welker. He got his hands on it but he was twisting and was mid stride.

As far as Brady's role in the play, he needed to throw that pass in the manner he did but just a bit lower.
See the reason I think it's on Welker is he should have realized sooner that the pass was coming in on the outside and not up the seam/post. He just showed poor awareness/recognition on the play.


Fair to say, but we are watching this play over and over from above and not thru Welker's helmet. Split second play, split second decision.

I thought the throw was a little bit off even for the back shoulder, and felt it was on both of them.

On the other hand, I thought Eli was never really given the amount of credit he was due for the throw he made to Manningham. It was an excellent catch but I thought it was one of the best throws I've ever seen.Now what you have said makes more sense than the other guy who still didn't read about the part you said we have to look through Welkers Helmet wich I think it means we have to think ourselves as being him on the field? Things are much different being on the field at faster speed than looking at them on your computer screen at home

Exactly, unless you look at it as a player, it's difficult to judge what that player should or shouldn't have done.

But that being said, if Welker had that kind of time, Drez is right. The only thing I would question is, did he have enough time to read his route adjustment based on the defense and his line of sight?

I thought he did have just enough time and adjusted to the ball that was thrown over his back shoulder but was caught between strides and was unable to twist and elevate adequately to a slightly high and ultimately slightly overthrown ball.

I also think Collingsworth oversimplified the difficulty of the catch. But he knows a lot more about receiving than I ever will.

Additionally, this was an example of a situation where sometimes when you select a receiver - like a Welker - what you might gain in quickness, you might lose in reach.

GCGiant
06-29-2012, 08:23 AM
Welker was wide open. There was no need to throw behind or anything like that. If Brady has the arm of a Jr. High QB he should be able to stick that ball in there...easily. The window he had was comparable to the Grand Canyon when you consider the window Eli had to put his throw in the final drive.

chasjay
06-29-2012, 08:35 AM
If that ball had gone a little higher in the air after it went off Welker's hands, the Giants could easily have intercepted it. Had that happened, who would have been at fault for the theoretical interception? Would it have been Welker or Brady? Chicken or the egg?

buffyblue
06-29-2012, 09:13 AM
As far as the Welker missed opportunity, I think that play is on both players.

Yes it hit Welkers hands, but I've never subscribed to the inane theory that if it hits your hands you should catch it. Way too simplistic for me. Too many other factors to consider. If you've ever played receiver you know that sometimes when you change direction there is a split second where you are caught between strides and you cannot elevate in the manner that you are used to.

I feel that is what happened to Welker. He got his hands on it but he was twisting and was mid stride.

As far as Brady's role in the play, he needed to throw that pass in the manner he did but just a bit lower.
See the reason I think it's on Welker is he should have realized sooner that the pass was coming in on the outside and not up the seam/post. He just showed poor awareness/recognition on the play.


Fair to say, but we are watching this play over and over from above and not thru Welker's helmet. Split second play, split second decision.

I thought the throw was a little bit off even for the back shoulder, and felt it was on both of them.

On the other hand, I thought Eli was never really given the amount of credit he was due for the throw he made to Manningham. It was an excellent catch but I thought it was one of the best throws I've ever seen.

The throw to Wes Welker could have been a little bit lower but I think he still ahould have caught it. Wes Welker is a tpp reciever in the league and needs makr that catch.

The throw from Eli Manning to Mario Manningham may be the greatsst throw in SuperBowl history. Nothing about the throw was surprising however. It is what Eli Mannings does.

burier
06-29-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.

Drez
06-29-2012, 12:54 PM
Exactly, unless you look at it as a player, it's difficult to judge what that player should or shouldn't have done.

But that being said, if Welker had that kind of time, Drez is right. The only thing I would question is, did he have enough time to read his route adjustment based on the defense and his line of sight?

I thought he did have just enough time and adjusted to the ball that was thrown over his back shoulder but was caught between strides and was unable to twist and elevate adequately to a slightly high and ultimately slightly overthrown ball.

I also think Collingsworth oversimplified the difficulty of the catch. But he knows a lot more about receiving than I ever will.

Additionally, this was an example of a situation where sometimes when you select a receiver - like a Welker - what you might gain in quickness, you might lose in reach.
Here's the clip again, and it's in roughly real time: http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3876615&amp;t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/3876615/welker-drop.html)

As soon as Welker gets past Rolle, he starts looking into the backfield. By the time the ball gets to him it's been about 3-4 seconds. That's plenty of time for Welker to have looked upfield at least once to see that KP has the seam/post on lockdown and that the ball needs to come to his outside shoulder. And seeing as Welker was looking back for so long, he got himself all twisted when he had to adjust for the ball.

Drez
06-29-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.

burier
06-29-2012, 01:12 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

lawl
06-29-2012, 02:33 PM
Remember that one really bad throw that Eli almost threw to asante Samuel in the super bowl?

That one single throw was just so terribly un clutch

burier
06-29-2012, 02:50 PM
Remember that one really bad throw that Eli almost threw to asante Samuel in the super bowl?

That one single throw was just so terribly un clutch

FIrst of all, almost doesn't count

Second of all Asante wasn't getting his feet on on that play. (He took his eye off the ball to make sure his feet would land. He Either makes the catch out of bounds or what happened happened.)

Third of all there was a miscomunication on that play. If you remember Eli actually chews Steve Smith out after the play.

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 02:59 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

Actually, looking at it from that angle, I'd say Brady threw it exactly where it should have gone...if Welker catches that over his left shoulder, he's got an angle away from the safety coverage and a wide open lane into the end zone. If Brady puts it where Welker is turning in, Welker still makes the catch, but the safety is in a much better position to make the tackle after the catch. So from that replay, I would put this one squarely on Welker's shoulders.

burier
06-29-2012, 03:03 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

Actually, looking at it from that angle, I'd say Brady threw it exactly where it should have gone...if Welker catches that over his left shoulder, he's got an angle away from the safety coverage and a wide open lane into the end zone. If Brady puts it where Welker is turning in, Welker still makes the catch, but the safety is in a much better position to make the tackle after the catch. So from that replay, I would put this one squarely on Welker's shoulders.

o_0

Uhh...we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

lawl
06-29-2012, 03:07 PM
Remember that one really bad throw that Eli almost threw to asante Samuel in the super bowl?

That one single throw was just so terribly un clutch

FIrst of all, almost doesn't count

Second of all Asante wasn't getting his feet on on that play. (He took his eye off the ball to make sure his feet would land. He Either makes the catch out of bounds or what happened happened.)

Third of all there was a miscomunication on that play. If you remember Eli actually chews Steve Smith out after the play.

First of all, I'm being a sarcastic ******* by breaking down one throw.

Second of all, there is no almost. Noone was coming close to catching that ball. It was such a bad pass in a clutch situation that no wr had a chance of catching it, whereas Welker clearly had a chance.

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 03:13 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

Actually, looking at it from that angle, I'd say Brady threw it exactly where it should have gone...if Welker catches that over his left shoulder, he's got an angle away from the safety coverage and a wide open lane into the end zone. If Brady puts it where Welker is turning in, Welker still makes the catch, but the safety is in a much better position to make the tackle after the catch. So from that replay, I would put this one squarely on Welker's shoulders.

o_0

Uhh...we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that.

So you think that Brady should have thrown it inside towards the safety instead of outside away from the safety?

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 03:15 PM
Remember that one really bad throw that Eli almost threw to asante Samuel in the super bowl?

That one single throw was just so terribly un clutch

FIrst of all, almost doesn't count

Second of all Asante wasn't getting his feet on on that play. (He took his eye off the ball to make sure his feet would land. He Either makes the catch out of bounds or what happened happened.)

Third of all there was a miscomunication on that play. If you remember Eli actually chews Steve Smith out after the play.

First of all, I'm being a sarcastic ******* by breaking down one throw.

Second of all, there is no almost. Noone was coming close to catching that ball. It was such a bad pass in a clutch situation that no wr had a chance of catching it, whereas Welker clearly had a chance.

Btw - that "one really bad throw" was also the result of Tyree running the route wrong and coming back when he was supposed to keep going up...you can see Eli talking to Tyree after that play explaining to him which way he was supposed to go. So we'll never know if "no one was coming close to catching that ball", because it's entirely possible that it was a perfect throw if Tyree runs the route right....

lawl
06-29-2012, 03:33 PM
Remember that one really bad throw that Eli almost threw to asante Samuel in the super bowl?

That one single throw was just so terribly un clutch

FIrst of all, almost doesn't count

Second of all Asante wasn't getting his feet on on that play. (He took his eye off the ball to make sure his feet would land. He Either makes the catch out of bounds or what happened happened.)

Third of all there was a miscomunication on that play. If you remember Eli actually chews Steve Smith out after the play.

First of all, I'm being a sarcastic ******* by breaking down one throw.

Second of all, there is no almost. Noone was coming close to catching that ball. It was such a bad pass in a clutch situation that no wr had a chance of catching it, whereas Welker clearly had a chance.

Btw - that "one really bad throw" was also the result of Tyree running the route wrong and coming back when he was supposed to keep going up...you can see Eli talking to Tyree after that play explaining to him which way he was supposed to go. So we'll never know if "no one was coming close to catching that ball", because it's entirely possible that it was a perfect throw if Tyree runs the route right.... asante was there waiting for it, fully extended and in the air and still was out of bounds.

giantsfan420
06-29-2012, 03:55 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

excellent clip.

as i said from the start, KP coulda made a tackle, but he would not have jacked welker up or had a play on the ball. welker woulda made the catch and kp woulda gotten to him in a few steps had the ball been thrown more inside.
from bradys perspective, u can see just how off the pass was. it is worse than that other angle shows....welker has a good 5 yds from any nyg defender while going for the catch...if it was a well thrown pass welker prob has a chance to juke KP and get YAC...

that said, welker still needs to make that catch. both hands. we def blew coverage badly

i found it telling the comments both made after the game. 'The pass was wide"-welker..."He makes that catch all the time"-Brady...

just saying

burier
06-29-2012, 04:00 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

excellent clip.

as i said from the start, KP coulda made a tackle, but he would not have jacked welker up or had a play on the ball. welker woulda made the catch and kp woulda gotten to him in a few steps had the ball been thrown more inside.
from bradys perspective, u can see just how off the pass was. it is worse than that other angle shows....welker has a good 5 yds from any nyg defender while going for the catch...if it was a well thrown pass welker prob has a chance to juke KP and get YAC...

that said, welker still needs to make that catch. both hands. we def blew coverage badly

i found it telling the comments both made after the game. 'The pass was wide"-welker..."He makes that catch all the time"-Brady...

just saying

I thought that was telling as well because I thought even if it was good pass its Brady's responsibility as the leader and the guy who takes the major majority of the credit for anything that goes right to to take the heat in that situation.

Bohemian
06-29-2012, 04:21 PM
How is this even an issue?

Diamondring
06-29-2012, 04:45 PM
Welker was wide open. There was no need to throw behind or anything like that. If Brady has the arm of a Jr. High QB he should be able to stick that ball in there...easily. The window he had was comparable to the Grand Canyon when you consider the window Eli had to put his throw in the final drive.This right here.

Jiffy Jeff
06-29-2012, 06:12 PM
I'm more clutch than Romo . . . . .</P>



My ferret is more clutch than Romo.

gumby742
06-29-2012, 09:20 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

It wasn't just a bad throw. It was a terrible one.

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 09:47 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

It wasn't just a bad throw. It was a terrible one.

Sorry...based on the coverage, it was a perfect throw...one that if Welker catches, he goes for a TD. Where Welker was looking for the ball on the inside would have been a completion if Brady put it where Welker wanted it, but then KP would have had a chance to make a tackle. Welker should have known better and looked outside instead of in...

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 09:47 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

It wasn't just a bad throw. It was a terrible one.

Sorry...based on the coverage, it was a perfect throw...one that if Welker catches, he goes for a TD. Where Welker was looking for the ball on the inside would have been a completion if Brady put it where Welker wanted it, but then KP would have had a chance to make a tackle. Welker should have known better and looked outside instead of in...

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 09:48 PM
Remember that one really bad throw that Eli almost threw to asante Samuel in the super bowl?

That one single throw was just so terribly un clutch

FIrst of all, almost doesn't count

Second of all Asante wasn't getting his feet on on that play. (He took his eye off the ball to make sure his feet would land. He Either makes the catch out of bounds or what happened happened.)

Third of all there was a miscomunication on that play. If you remember Eli actually chews Steve Smith out after the play.

First of all, I'm being a sarcastic ******* by breaking down one throw.

Second of all, there is no almost. Noone was coming close to catching that ball. It was such a bad pass in a clutch situation that no wr had a chance of catching it, whereas Welker clearly had a chance.

Btw - that "one really bad throw" was also the result of Tyree running the route wrong and coming back when he was supposed to keep going up...you can see Eli talking to Tyree after that play explaining to him which way he was supposed to go. So we'll never know if "no one was coming close to catching that ball", because it's entirely possible that it was a perfect throw if Tyree runs the route right.... asante was there waiting for it, fully extended and in the air and still was out of bounds.

Yes, but if Tyree had continued on the route, he would have been right with Asante, probably with better position, to make a play on the ball. Tyree has 2 inches and a better vertical leap than Asante....

gumby742
06-29-2012, 09:52 PM
I'm talking about throwing the ball to someone who is covered (Welker) but placing it in a certain location so that the intended reciever can get it or no one will get it.

Vs

Throwing the ball to someone who isn't covered or covered as well as an other reciever.
Welker was wide open. He had the corner beat by several steps. The issue was if Brady threw the pass up the seam, he would have led Welker right into a roaming and converging KP. The right spot was throwing it over the back shoulder. Welker contorted, not to create the illusion of catchability, but because he didn't diagnose what was happening in time to properly adjust to the play. That's on him, not Brady.

I don't have the coaches' tape of the SB, but even if I had, I can guarantee you that regardless if any other WR was open, throwing to Welker was the right play. It would have likely been a coffin nail for us. Welker needs to know that Brady can throw the ball up the seam. If he did, he wouldn't have needed to contort himself. If would have adjusted properly and made the catch in stride.


But you're not addressing the bottom line. If...IF (Why is there presumption that Welker had the freedom to make a sight adjustment on that play?) Welker diagnosed the play incorrectly then Brady should not have thrown him the ball. Fair enough?

Now perhaps Brady threw the ball to where Welker was "supposed to be" or whatever but that position requires far too much speculation on our part for the purposes of this debate.

So bottom line it. What you don't do is throw a nigh uncatchable ball and then turn around and blame the reciever.
It's not a sight adjustment, it's called adjusting to reality. He isn't changing the route so much as changing ball location, it's outside vs. inside, not post or seam vs. square out.

Brady threw him the ball because he was wide freaking open, and has trust in Welker as one of the better/smarter receivers in the league to see that KP was roaming in the middle and to realize that the ball has to come in on his outside.

Brady didn't throw a nigh uncatchable ball. Welker made it uncatchable by looking into the backfield while running for 15 yards and not seeing the safety take away the inside throw.


Just watched the play again and its worse than I thought.

KP is a non-issue on this play. Welker is WIDE open...Wide open by College football standards..All Brady has to do is throw a decent ball and its complete.

Now you can speculate about which shoulder Welker should have look over...but honestly...I can't guarantee Welker comes down with the ball anyway...It was high and outside and Welker is tiny!

It was a bad throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKGtAM69R2A

Look at the very first angle they show because its the shot from Brady's prespective. Welker is looking right at Brady saying...I'm open throw it to me and Brady misses him.

It wasn't just a bad throw. It was a terrible one.

Sorry...based on the coverage, it was a perfect throw...one that if Welker catches, he goes for a TD. Where Welker was looking for the ball on the inside would have been a completion if Brady put it where Welker wanted it, but then KP would have had a chance to make a tackle. Welker should have known better and looked outside instead of in...

Hmm. After watching the youtube video, it wasn't as bad a throw as I thought. Still it could have been much better.

giantsfan420
06-29-2012, 10:21 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 10:27 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Webster was covering the outside WR and Rolle was underneath expecting KP over the top. KP was late. The correct throw was to the outside, where there was NO DB COVERING...the outside throw gives Welker a clear run to the end zone. Throwing inside gives KP a chance to make a tackle.

Drez
06-29-2012, 10:44 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.

Drez
06-29-2012, 10:49 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Webster was covering the outside WR and Rolle was underneath expecting KP over the top. KP was late. The correct throw was to the outside, where there was NO DB COVERING...the outside throw gives Welker a clear run to the end zone. Throwing inside gives KP a chance to make a tackle.
From what I could gather from the coverage, it looks like Rolle was supposed to be in trail on Welker with KP taking away the deep seam and post. However, it looks like Rolle was supposed to jump the underneath route and Webster was supposed to take over covering Welker downfield.

That play would not have been a TD if Welker properly adjusted.

NY4U2
06-29-2012, 11:05 PM
WOW bad comparison, thats like saying kool-aid is sweeter than water .. "no duh" lol but seriously

What do the Pope and Tony Romo have in common?...





.....They can both make a million people stand up and yell, "J.e.s.u.s. C.h.r.i.s.t"!

Diamondring
06-29-2012, 11:22 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.
The one who needs to put down the pipe is you. Look at where Welker caught the ball. Was there any defender there when he caught it? No.

Come on man you need to make better judgement Also there are people who believe that it was on Welker and some thought it was on Brady so don't tell anybody to put the pipe down.

Drez
06-29-2012, 11:26 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.
The one who needs to put down the pipe is you. Look at where Welker caught the ball. Was there any defender there when he caught it? No.

Come on man you need to make better judgement Also there are people who believe that it was on Welker and some thought it was on Brady so don't tell anybody to put the pipe down.
I am looking where Welker was trying to catch the ball. In fact, I'm saying that Welker needed to know that that was where he was supposed to catch the ball. The inside was the exact wrong place to throw the ball, and the outside was the proper place. If Welker wasn't so busy looking into the backfield for 15 yards he would have realized that too and been able to make an easy catch instead of getting all twisted as he had adjust across his body at the last second.

yoeddy
06-29-2012, 11:35 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Webster was covering the outside WR and Rolle was underneath expecting KP over the top. KP was late. The correct throw was to the outside, where there was NO DB COVERING...the outside throw gives Welker a clear run to the end zone. Throwing inside gives KP a chance to make a tackle.
From what I could gather from the coverage, it looks like Rolle was supposed to be in trail* on Welker with KP taking away the deep seam and post. However, it looks like Rolle was supposed to jump the underneath route and Webster was supposed to take over covering Welker downfield.

That play would not have been a TD if Welker properly adjusted.


Webster had no responsibility for Welker on the play...he was covering the outside receiver who ran a short route and stopped underneath. Webster stopped to stay with him and only broke towards Welker after he saw Brady throw the ball...

Drez
06-29-2012, 11:36 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Webster was covering the outside WR and Rolle was underneath expecting KP over the top. KP was late. The correct throw was to the outside, where there was NO DB COVERING...the outside throw gives Welker a clear run to the end zone. Throwing inside gives KP a chance to make a tackle.
From what I could gather from the coverage, it looks like Rolle was supposed to be in trail on Welker with KP taking away the deep seam and post. However, it looks like Rolle was supposed to jump the underneath route and Webster was supposed to take over covering Welker downfield.

That play would not have been a TD if Welker properly adjusted.


Webster had no responsibility for Welker on the play...he was covering the outside receiver who ran a short route and stopped underneath. Webster stopped to stay with him and only broke towards Welker after he saw Brady throw the ball...
That's what happened, but I think Webster and Rolle were supposed to switch off. At least that's the way it looks to me.

Diamondring
06-29-2012, 11:41 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.
The one who needs to put down the pipe is you. Look at where Welker caught the ball. Was there any defender there when he caught it? No.

Come on man you need to make better judgement Also there are people who believe that it was on Welker and some thought it was on Brady so don't tell anybody to put the pipe down.
I am looking where Welker was trying to catch the ball. In fact, I'm saying that Welker needed to know that that was where he was supposed to catch the ball. The inside was the exact wrong place to throw the ball, and the outside was the proper place. If Welker wasn't so busy looking into the backfield for 15 yards he would have realized that too and been able to make an easy catch instead of getting all twisted as he had adjust across his body at the last second.
But he would have caught the ball in the inside would he?

ShakeNBake
06-29-2012, 11:42 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Webster was covering the outside WR and Rolle was underneath expecting KP over the top. KP was late. The correct throw was to the outside, where there was NO DB COVERING...the outside throw gives Welker a clear run to the end zone. Throwing inside gives KP a chance to make a tackle.
From what I could gather from the coverage, it looks like Rolle was supposed to be in trail on Welker with KP taking away the deep seam and post. However, it looks like Rolle was supposed to jump the underneath route and Webster was supposed to take over covering Welker downfield.

That play would not have been a TD if Welker properly adjusted.


Webster had no responsibility for Welker on the play...he was covering the outside receiver who ran a short route and stopped underneath. Webster stopped to stay with him and only broke towards Welker after he saw Brady throw the ball...
That's what happened, but I think Webster and Rolle were supposed to switch off. At least that's the way it looks to me.


It looked like Rolle was playing shallow and passed Welker off to KP who was playing deep safety. Welker was looking over his right shoulder(inside) where the pressure(KP) was coming from. Welker was open to the outside and that's where Tom threw it, it wasn't perfect but Welker had a shot but contorted his body funny because his head was turned the wrong way.

Drez
06-29-2012, 11:47 PM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.
The one who needs to put down the pipe is you. Look at where Welker caught the ball. Was there any defender there when he caught it? No.

Come on man you need to make better judgement Also there are people who believe that it was on Welker and some thought it was on Brady so don't tell anybody to put the pipe down.
I am looking where Welker was trying to catch the ball. In fact, I'm saying that Welker needed to know that that was where he was supposed to catch the ball. The inside was the exact wrong place to throw the ball, and the outside was the proper place. If Welker wasn't so busy looking into the backfield for 15 yards he would have realized that too and been able to make an easy catch instead of getting all twisted as he had adjust across his body at the last second.
But he would have caught the ball in the inside would he?
I have no idea what you just said, but he would have gotten killed by KP had the pass gone inside, and Welker should have known that and known to look for the ball on the outside. Had he adjusted sooner, he would have made the catch.

GmenFan1980
06-30-2012, 12:25 AM
I'm guessing this thread goes to 10+ pages..

+1 for the easy prediction lol

deenezy
06-30-2012, 01:01 AM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

Diamondring
06-30-2012, 07:22 AM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.
The one who needs to put down the pipe is you. Look at where Welker caught the ball. Was there any defender there when he caught it? No.

Come on man you need to make better judgement Also there are people who believe that it was on Welker and some thought it was on Brady so don't tell anybody to put the pipe down.
I am looking where Welker was trying to catch the ball. In fact, I'm saying that Welker needed to know that that was where he was supposed to catch the ball. The inside was the exact wrong place to throw the ball, and the outside was the proper place. If Welker wasn't so busy looking into the backfield for 15 yards he would have realized that too and been able to make an easy catch instead of getting all twisted as he had adjust across his body at the last second.
But he would have caught the ball in the inside would he?
I have no idea what you just said, but he would have gotten killed by KP had the pass gone inside, and Welker should have known that and known to look for the ball on the outside. Had he adjusted sooner, he would have made the catch.
Welker didn't have his hands on the ball in the outside but in the inside and there were no defenders there to interupt the pass. I know what you are talking about though that Welker should immediately know that the ball was going to the outside because the defender on the outside stopped and safety was coming. Yet Welker almost caught the ball in the inside so the pass should have really been either the inside or the outside. I do see that Welker misjudge the pass but Welker was also on the field and his view is more limited than yours.

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 07:45 AM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...

Sorry, I don't see that at all. Webster was covering the outside WR and Rolle was underneath expecting KP over the top. KP was late. The correct throw was to the outside, where there was NO DB COVERING...the outside throw gives Welker a clear run to the end zone. Throwing inside gives KP a chance to make a tackle.
From what I could gather from the coverage, it looks like Rolle was supposed to be in trail* on Welker with KP taking away the deep seam and post. However, it looks like Rolle was supposed to jump the underneath route and Webster was supposed to take over covering Welker downfield.

That play would not have been a TD if Welker properly adjusted.


Webster had no responsibility for Welker on the play...he was covering the outside receiver who ran a short route and stopped underneath. Webster stopped to stay with him and only broke towards Welker after he saw Brady throw the ball...
That's what happened, but I think Webster and Rolle were supposed to switch off. At least that's the way it looks to me.


Why would they switch off on that situation? If they did, then both the outside WR and Welker would have been uncovered when Brady threw the ball. The missed coverage was that KP was late to cover the top (he drifted left at the snap...am sure Brady saw this, which is how he made such a quick decision to throw the ball there)...

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 07:47 AM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.
The one who needs to put down the pipe is you. Look at where Welker caught the ball. Was there any defender there when he caught it? No.

Come on man you need to make better judgement Also there are people who believe that it was on Welker and some thought it was on Brady so don't tell anybody to put the pipe down.
I am looking where Welker was trying to catch the ball. In fact, I'm saying that Welker needed to know that that was where he was supposed to catch the ball. The inside was the exact wrong place to throw the ball, and the outside was the proper place. If Welker wasn't so busy looking into the backfield for 15 yards he would have realized that too and been able to make an easy catch instead of getting all twisted as he had adjust across his body at the last second.
But he would have caught the ball in the inside would he?
I have no idea what you just said, but he would have gotten killed by KP had the pass gone inside, and Welker should have known that and known to look for the ball on the outside. Had he adjusted sooner, he would have made the catch.


Even if he wasn't going to get killed, the inside throw would have given KP a better shot to make a tackle than the outside. Watch KP at the snap...he drifts left (away from Welker's side), which is what gives Brady the cue to throw to the outside...

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 07:48 AM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...

Diamondring
06-30-2012, 07:50 AM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 07:58 AM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.

Diamondring
06-30-2012, 09:19 AM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 10:29 AM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.

GCGiant
06-30-2012, 10:34 AM
The guy was wide open. Throw it to him in a way that he can easily catch it in that situation. If he does happen to get tackled...run another play.

Diamondring
06-30-2012, 11:10 AM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.The ball was not going to the outside to begin with. Look at Welker trying to catch the ball. He jumped for the ball. What you should have said is that Welker should have not jumped and went for the ball running. Look at Welker's jump. It was not a high jump and he was like drifting backwards. Yes the ball may look like it was going to the outside but it wasn't. Look at the film in slow motion this time. I just got done looking at it on Youtube and even paused it.

This make me come to the conclusiuon that Welker shouldn't have jumped but kept on running to catch the ball on the run. When he jumped, you could see where the ball was and where he was so that means that the pass was not to the outside but going at a slight angle, it was right to Welker but Welker tried to jump for it backwards.

giantsfan420
06-30-2012, 11:43 AM
and technically corey webster was closer to welker than KP was anyways somehow (major break down in coverage)...the correct throw is towards the inside. KP wouldnt have gotten there until Welker could either make a football move or protect himself. Welker is drifting towards the sideline to give the inside throw even more room. from bradys persepctive u can see how off the throw was and where it should have been. welker even said it was wide...
Dude, put down the pipe, lol. But, seriously, if Brady throws the pass inside he walks Welker right into KP. Don't get confused by KP's motions after he sees the pass go outside. KP let up and started back to take away any YAC.
The one who needs to put down the pipe is you. Look at where Welker caught the ball. Was there any defender there when he caught it? No.

Come on man you need to make better judgement Also there are people who believe that it was on Welker and some thought it was on Brady so don't tell anybody to put the pipe down.
I am looking where Welker was trying to catch the ball. In fact, I'm saying that Welker needed to know that that was where he was supposed to catch the ball. The inside was the exact wrong place to throw the ball, and the outside was the proper place. If Welker wasn't so busy looking into the backfield for 15 yards he would have realized that too and been able to make an easy catch instead of getting all twisted as he had adjust across his body at the last second.
But he would have caught the ball in the inside would he?
I have no idea what you just said, but he would have gotten killed by KP had the pass gone inside, and Welker should have known that and known to look for the ball on the outside. Had he adjusted sooner, he would have made the catch.


no way. look at it from bradys angle. KP woulda gotten there after Welker could either defend himself or make a football move. KP was nowhere near close enough to where he could have jacked welker up as he made the catch...he woulda been at welker in a few steps after welker had caught it...

KP even starts upfield a little as welkers catching it bc he isnt in a very good position. watch KP as welker goes to catch it, KP turns downfield a little...if KP could have jacked welker up had the pass been thrown inside, KP still shoulda been right there with the pass thrown outside, welkers body woulda been in the same spot, he just woulda reached inside, so the thought KP woulda killed welker is incorrect bc that means KP still shoulda killed welker with the throw to the outside...

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 04:27 PM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.The ball was not going to the outside to begin with. Look at Welker trying to catch the ball. He jumped for the ball. What you should have said is that Welker should have not jumped and went for the ball running. Look at Welker's jump. It was not a high jump and he was like drifting backwards. Yes the ball may look like it was going to the outside but it wasn't. Look at the film in slow motion this time. I just got done looking at it on Youtube and even paused it.

This make me come to the conclusiuon that Welker shouldn't have jumped but kept on running to catch the ball on the run. When he jumped, you could see where the ball was and where he was so that means that the pass was not to the outside but going at a slight angle, it was right to Welker but Welker tried to jump for it backwards.

What I think I said in one of my first posts in this thread was that Welker should have turned his body to the outside and caught the ball over his left shoulder...he would have caught it in stride and run all the way to the end zone...and by this, my assertion was that Brady threw it where it needed to be, and Welker made the mistake by turning inside.

jakegibbs
06-30-2012, 04:50 PM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.The ball was not going to the outside to begin with. Look at Welker trying to catch the ball. He jumped for the ball. What you should have said is that Welker should have not jumped and went for the ball running. Look at Welker's jump. It was not a high jump and he was like drifting backwards. Yes the ball may look like it was going to the outside but it wasn't. Look at the film in slow motion this time. I just got done looking at it on Youtube and even paused it.

This make me come to the conclusiuon that Welker shouldn't have jumped but kept on running to catch the ball on the run. When he jumped, you could see where the ball was and where he was so that means that the pass was not to the outside but going at a slight angle, it was right to Welker but Welker tried to jump for it backwards.

What I think I said in one of my first posts in this thread was that Welker should have turned his body to the outside and caught the ball over his left shoulder...he would have caught it in stride and run all the way to the end zone...and by this, my assertion was that Brady threw it where it needed to be, and Welker made the mistake by turning inside.

Would of, could of, should of ... you could say that about everygame close game. It always comes down to 1 or 2 plays.

Heck fire they had 2 opportunities when Bradshaw went ahead & scored with 1 min & 6 seconds left.

Back in SB 42 the Eli had to take the Giants 86 yards in 1 min & 12 seconds. He had an extra 6 seconds that he didn't really need because there were like 39 something seconds when Plax caught the game winning pass & they only needed a measly FG to send it to OT & couldn't even get that done

Brady didn't make the big play... Eli made the big play.. end of thread end of story. can't change history..better team won both times.. sorry get over it.

Diamondring
06-30-2012, 06:33 PM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.The ball was not going to the outside to begin with. Look at Welker trying to catch the ball. He jumped for the ball. What you should have said is that Welker should have not jumped and went for the ball running. Look at Welker's jump. It was not a high jump and he was like drifting backwards. Yes the ball may look like it was going to the outside but it wasn't. Look at the film in slow motion this time. I just got done looking at it on Youtube and even paused it.

This make me come to the conclusiuon that Welker shouldn't have jumped but kept on running to catch the ball on the run. When he jumped, you could see where the ball was and where he was so that means that the pass was not to the outside but going at a slight angle, it was right to Welker but Welker tried to jump for it backwards.

What I think I said in one of my first posts in this thread was that Welker should have turned his body to the outside and caught the ball over his left shoulder...he would have caught it in stride and run all the way to the end zone...and by this, my assertion was that Brady threw it where it needed to be, and Welker made the mistake by turning inside.Again it seems to me that you think that our defense is not thinking. I bet if Welker would tried to run to the outside, our defenses actions would have been different and Roll would have kept on running at full speed after he hesitated. I think you keep looking at our defenders and think that if Welker would have tried to catch tbe ball to the outside, our defenders would still be in the position they were in. Even after Brady dropped the ball, our defenders were right there.

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 06:50 PM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.The ball was not going to the outside to begin with. Look at Welker trying to catch the ball. He jumped for the ball. What you should have said is that Welker should have not jumped and went for the ball running. Look at Welker's jump. It was not a high jump and he was like drifting backwards. Yes the ball may look like it was going to the outside but it wasn't. Look at the film in slow motion this time. I just got done looking at it on Youtube and even paused it.

This make me come to the conclusiuon that Welker shouldn't have jumped but kept on running to catch the ball on the run. When he jumped, you could see where the ball was and where he was so that means that the pass was not to the outside but going at a slight angle, it was right to Welker but Welker tried to jump for it backwards.

What I think I said in one of my first posts in this thread was that Welker should have turned his body to the outside and caught the ball over his left shoulder...he would have caught it in stride and run all the way to the end zone...and by this, my assertion was that Brady threw it where it needed to be, and Welker made the mistake by turning inside.Again it seems to me that you think that our defense is not thinking. I bet if Welker would tried to run to the outside, our defenses actions would have been different and Roll would have kept on running at full speed after he hesitated. I think you keep looking at our defenders and think that if Welker would have tried to catch tbe ball to the outside, our defenders would still be in the position they were in. Even after Brady dropped the ball, our defenders were right there.

Again...the ball was released in about 2 seconds. I'm not saying Welker would do anything other than turn his head outside instead of inside. Webster will would have stopped to cover the outside WR, KP still would have drifted inside prior to the snap and would have been late to cover the top, and Rolle would still be trailing the route. The ball was perfectly placed based on the route and the coverage, and Welker made a mistake by turning his head in instead of out.

yoeddy
06-30-2012, 06:51 PM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.The ball was not going to the outside to begin with. Look at Welker trying to catch the ball. He jumped for the ball. What you should have said is that Welker should have not jumped and went for the ball running. Look at Welker's jump. It was not a high jump and he was like drifting backwards. Yes the ball may look like it was going to the outside but it wasn't. Look at the film in slow motion this time. I just got done looking at it on Youtube and even paused it.

This make me come to the conclusiuon that Welker shouldn't have jumped but kept on running to catch the ball on the run. When he jumped, you could see where the ball was and where he was so that means that the pass was not to the outside but going at a slight angle, it was right to Welker but Welker tried to jump for it backwards.

What I think I said in one of my first posts in this thread was that Welker should have turned his body to the outside and caught the ball over his left shoulder...he would have caught it in stride and run all the way to the end zone...and by this, my assertion was that Brady threw it where it needed to be, and Welker made the mistake by turning inside.

Would of, could of, should of ... you could say that about everygame close game. It always comes down to 1 or 2 plays.

Heck fire they had 2 opportunities when Bradshaw went ahead & scored with 1 min & 6 seconds left.

Back in SB 42 the Eli had to take the Giants 86 yards in 1 min & 12 seconds. He had an extra 6 seconds that he didn't really need because there were like 39 something seconds when Plax caught the game winning pass & they only needed a measly FG to send it to OT & couldn't even get that done

Brady didn't make the big play... Eli made the big play.. end of thread end of story. can't change history..better team won both times.. sorry get over it.

I thought we were discussing whether it was Brady or Welker who made the mistake? I didn't realize that I was discussing whether or not Eli made the big play or not. I think I said earlier in this thread that I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up, and that I think Eli is fantastic. What's there to get over?

Diamondring
06-30-2012, 07:49 PM
That was a terribly thrown ball, Brady should have thrown that inside, there was alot of room between welker and kp,when the ball was thrown kp is in a stationary position.Looking at the way welker is positioned, there is no way you throw a high outside pass

But looking at the coverage, outside is exactly where you throw it...But Weker had his hands on it in the inside and could have caught it there so the inside is where it should be.

Welker was supposed to go outside, which is where the ball was thrown...so Welker made the mistake, not Brady.The ball was suppose to go to where Wes was at. The defenders are also looking at Welker to see what he was going to do so you have to look at that. Even if the ball was going to be thrown outside and Welker was going to go for it, the defenders Roll's Kenny's and Webster's actions would have been different and probably would have ran to get near Welker. You are looking at thinking pieces not just mindless robots.

The play was not an option route and Welker is also a thinking receiver and thought that Webster would have been there anyways so Welker thought to himself to catch the ball where he was at wich was a good move. Trying to catch the pass you want may not be the right move since there would have been time on the clock. They want to take much time off the clock as possible.

Brady threw the ball about 2 seconds after the snap, so it was based on a quick read of the defense. If you look at KP just before the snap, he is drifting towards the inside, which would indicate that there would be late coverage to the outside (knowing also that the outside WR was going to do a quick 5 yard come-back), so the slot receiver should have seen that and made the adjustment to go outside. I am completely looking at this as thinking pieces and not just mindless robots...you cannot convince me that the proper move was to throw towards the safety coverage in this play.

In terms of running time off the clock versus scoring, a TD there makes it a 9 point (2-possession) game with under 4 minutes to go...I'm pretty sure that the Patriots would have preferred a quick score over the possibility of running a couple of minutes off the clock but only coming away with a 5 point lead from a FG.The ball was not going to the outside to begin with. Look at Welker trying to catch the ball. He jumped for the ball. What you should have said is that Welker should have not jumped and went for the ball running. Look at Welker's jump. It was not a high jump and he was like drifting backwards. Yes the ball may look like it was going to the outside but it wasn't. Look at the film in slow motion this time. I just got done looking at it on Youtube and even paused it.

This make me come to the conclusiuon that Welker shouldn't have jumped but kept on running to catch the ball on the run. When he jumped, you could see where the ball was and where he was so that means that the pass was not to the outside but going at a slight angle, it was right to Welker but Welker tried to jump for it backwards.

What I think I said in one of my first posts in this thread was that Welker should have turned his body to the outside and caught the ball over his left shoulder...he would have caught it in stride and run all the way to the end zone...and by this, my assertion was that Brady threw it where it needed to be, and Welker made the mistake by turning inside.Again it seems to me that you think that our defense is not thinking. I bet if Welker would tried to run to the outside, our defenses actions would have been different and Roll would have kept on running at full speed after he hesitated. I think you keep looking at our defenders and think that if Welker would have tried to catch tbe ball to the outside, our defenders would still be in the position they were in. Even after Brady dropped the ball, our defenders were right there.

Again...the ball was released in about 2 seconds. I'm not saying Welker would do anything other than turn his head outside instead of inside. Webster will would have stopped to cover the outside WR, KP still would have drifted inside prior to the snap and would have been late to cover the top, and Rolle would still be trailing the route. The ball was perfectly placed based on the route and the coverage, and Welker made a mistake by turning his head in instead of out.Even if Welker did what you have said, the defenders would stil be with him. Roll slowed down because he saw Welker make a jump for the ball. If Welker would have done what you think he should do, Roll would have been right with him and would have ran at the right speed. He is not stupid to keep running at a slow pace. Even if Welker did what you say, Webster would still left his man. It made no sense for him to keep looking at his man because Welker turned his attention to the outside to catch the ball..

GCGiant
07-01-2012, 03:38 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on.

I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway...

...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that.

I don't care...neither did Montana.

Morehead State
07-01-2012, 10:52 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</P>


What in God's name are you talking about. The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</P>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</P>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</P>

Mohann
07-01-2012, 01:13 PM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about. The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.

gumby742
07-01-2012, 02:44 PM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about.* The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.


Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

giantsfan420
07-01-2012, 03:34 PM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about.* The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.


Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

lol

Mohann
07-01-2012, 07:21 PM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about. The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.


Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.

gumby742
07-01-2012, 11:31 PM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about.* The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.


Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.


Defensive then. Call it what you will. Funny thing is you Eli cheering folk cry foul because Haters "take over a thread" when in actuality, it's your type that starts it to begin with.

giantsfan420
07-02-2012, 01:30 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about.* The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.


Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.


Defensive then. Call it what you will. Funny thing is you Eli cheering folk cry foul because Haters "take over a thread" when in actuality, it's your type that starts it to begin with.
lol.

Mohann
07-02-2012, 04:06 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about. The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.


Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.


Defensive then. Call it what you will. Funny thing is you Eli cheering folk cry foul because Haters "take over a thread" when in actuality, it's your type that starts it to begin with.

Riiiiight. Even though I just pointed out how it was "your type" starting it. Keep saying it long enough and someone will believe it.

GCGiant
07-02-2012, 08:55 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</p>


What in God's name are you talking about.* The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</p>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</p>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</p>

Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.


Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.


Defensive then. Call it what you will. Funny thing is you Eli cheering folk cry foul because Haters "take over a thread" when in actuality, it's your type that starts it to begin with.

Riiiiight. Even though I just pointed out how it was "your type" starting it. Keep saying it long enough and someone will believe it.
I guess there was a time when I would be intimidated by MH and the likes...but when you see them for what they really are then you realize that you have nothing to fear.

Morehead State
07-03-2012, 10:01 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</P>


What in God's name are you talking about. The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</P>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</P>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</P>




Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.
Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.
Defensive then. Call it what you will. Funny thing is you Eli cheering folk cry foul because Haters "take over a thread" when in actuality, it's your type that starts it to begin with.

Riiiiight. Even though I just pointed out how it was "your type" starting it. Keep saying it long enough and someone will believe it.
I guess there was a time when I would be intimidated by MH and the likes...but when you see them for what they really are then you realize that you have nothing to fear.</P>


You mean "awesome"?</P>


But I agree, why would anyone be intimidated by a loving guy like me?</P>

GCGiant
07-03-2012, 10:38 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</P>


What in God's name are you talking about.* The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</P>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</P>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</P>




Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.
Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.
Defensive then. Call it what you will. Funny thing is you Eli cheering folk cry foul because Haters "take over a thread" when in actuality, it's your type that starts it to begin with.

Riiiiight. Even though I just pointed out how it was "your type" starting it. Keep saying it long enough and someone will believe it.
I guess there was a time when I would be intimidated by MH and the likes...but when you see them for what they really are then you realize that you have nothing to fear.</P>


You mean "awesome"?</P>


But I agree, why would anyone be intimidated by a loving guy like me?</P>
No reason at all. There is nothing wrong with someone stating their opinion on MB's, and although some of your opinions are 180 from mine, I don't think you've ever resorted to any sort of serious attacks. Harmless fun.

yoeddy
07-03-2012, 11:04 AM
With Eli it has always been something. First, he was a spoiled brat. He has no arm. His spirals are not pretty. He has no accuracy. He panics in the pocket. He throws off his back foot...the list goes on and on. I have a friend who is a big LSU fanatic and has criticized Eli all along. Every year, it was something different. Anyway... ...his latest is Eli just doesn't look like a QB...that's what his critics have left. I couldn't believe he actually resorted to that. I don't care...neither did Montana.</P>


What in God's name are you talking about.* The unanimous concesus here is that Eli is head ans shoulders more clutch than Romo.</P>


The only argument here is that some think Eli is actually better than Brady, one of the greatest QB's in NFL history.</P>


Is it your view that anyone who thinks Brady is better is some kind of "Eli hater"?</P>




Did you have to wait 12 pages for your opening? Lighten up Francis.
Take a step back here. Who got pissy first? An Eli cheering section member like usual..

How was he getting "pissy"? The truth is all of the statements he said were made about Eli, were made about Eli, and were garbage. He then shared a story about a friend, and never mentioned Brady. Morehead was putting words in the guys post that weren't there. It's Morehead, and your MO to attack anything about Eli you can, and that's what he was doing. Looking for a fight as usual even if it's not there.
Defensive then. Call it what you will. Funny thing is you Eli cheering folk cry foul because Haters "take over a thread" when in actuality, it's your type that starts it to begin with.

Riiiiight. Even though I just pointed out how it was "your type" starting it. Keep saying it long enough and someone will believe it.
I guess there was a time when I would be intimidated by MH and the likes...but when you see them for what they really are then you realize that you have nothing to fear.</P>


You mean "awesome"?</P>


But I agree, why would anyone be intimidated by a loving guy like me?</P>

I think it's your profile pic...

rebelfan1966
07-03-2012, 11:35 AM
I used to think Brady might someday make it into the same conversation as Montana.... but after loosing two SBs.... I think he will always remain a tier beneath Joe Montana. Montana, in my mind, still remains to best QB to ever play the game.

Diamondring
07-03-2012, 11:47 AM
I used to think Brady might someday make it into the same conversation as Montana.... but after loosing two SBs.... I think he will always remain a tier beneath Joe Montana. Montana, in my mind, still remains to best QB to ever play the game.I say Elways was the man for me. He hardly had the talent around him until one day. When that day took place, he was hot like fire. Another guy I like, our own Phil Simms. Some said that if he was with the 49ers, he would maybe have done better than Joe. Phil also did not have a lot of talented receivers around him til one day.

Joe was very good but he did have a lot of talent around him while playing for the 49ers. Yet he did carry his great play to the Chiefs where the receivers there, dropped a lot of his passes. Maybe that talent he had around him in Sanfran maybe wasn't a big reason why he did well there.

Diamondring
07-03-2012, 11:52 AM
I used to think Brady might someday make it into the same conversation as Montana.... but after loosing two SBs.... I think he will always remain a tier beneath Joe Montana. Montana, in my mind, still remains to best QB to ever play the game.Oh and as for Brady, well you have to look at his play to see the real facts. He did look good in the losses with the Giants and could have won it all if the Giants made mistakes. Yet he was not close to Joe who have beaten some opponents by a good amount of points. Brady did well without big name receivers but he had about 5 and maybe more decent receivers. The one receiver a lot of people overlooked was the rb. I forgot his name but when the other guys were not open, he would get the ball.

giantsfan420
07-03-2012, 12:17 PM
I used to think Brady might someday make it into the same conversation as Montana.... but after loosing two SBs.... I think he will always remain a tier beneath Joe Montana. Montana, in my mind, still remains to best QB to ever play the game.Oh and as for Brady, well you have to look at his play to see the real facts. He did look good in the losses with the Giants and could have won it all if the Giants made mistakes. Yet he was not close to Joe who have beaten some opponents by a good amount of points. Brady did well without big name receivers but he had about 5 and maybe more decent receivers. The one receiver a lot of people overlooked was the rb. I forgot his name but when the other guys were not open, he would get the ball.

ur thinking of kevin faulk.

but people also forget that NE won its first SB with corey dillon iirc, coulda been second sb. Ever since NE has gone to a more air it out style, they havent won a sb. NE was at its best not when Brady was the center piece, but when the run game and defense were...thats just my opinion.
NE has proven to be a great team...they just havent sealed the deal ever since they kinda gave up on the run game.

burier
07-03-2012, 01:04 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady.

It was a bad throw. There's no way around it.

Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.

Morehead State
07-04-2012, 09:36 AM
I used to think Brady might someday make it into the same conversation as Montana.... but after loosing two SBs.... I think he will always remain a tier beneath Joe Montana. Montana, in my mind, still remains to best QB to ever play the game.</P>


I still think Marino was the best pure QB I've ever seen. Too bad he had to spend his entire career on an otherwise mediocre team.</P>


It was Dwight Stevenson and Dan Marino and a bunch of average players. And a below average defense.</P>


Even the years that Montana won SB's were the years they played great defense.</P>

Diamondring
07-04-2012, 10:59 AM
I used to think Brady might someday make it into the same conversation as Montana.... but after loosing two SBs.... I think he will always remain a tier beneath Joe Montana. Montana, in my mind, still remains to best QB to ever play the game.Oh and as for Brady, well you have to look at his play to see the real facts. He did look good in the losses with the Giants and could have won it all if the Giants made mistakes. Yet he was not close to Joe who have beaten some opponents by a good amount of points. Brady did well without big name receivers but he had about 5 and maybe more decent receivers. The one receiver a lot of people overlooked was the rb. I forgot his name but when the other guys were not open, he would get the ball.

ur thinking of kevin faulk.

but people also forget that NE won its first SB with corey dillon iirc, coulda been second sb. Ever since NE has gone to a more air it out style, they havent won a sb. NE was at its best not when Brady was the center piece, but when the run game and defense were...thats just my opinion.
NE has proven to be a great team...they just havent sealed the deal ever since they kinda gave up on the run game.Thanks that was him. I also like the other things you have said and think they were on point.

yoeddy
07-04-2012, 01:07 PM
I used to think Brady might someday make it into the same conversation as Montana.... but after loosing two SBs.... I think he will always remain a tier beneath Joe Montana. Montana, in my mind, still remains to best QB to ever play the game.Oh and as for Brady, well you have to look at his play to see the real facts. He did look good in the losses with the Giants and could have won it all if the Giants made mistakes. Yet he was not close to Joe who have beaten some opponents by a good amount of points. Brady did well without big name receivers but he had about 5 and maybe more decent receivers. The one receiver a lot of people overlooked was the rb. I forgot his name but when the other guys were not open, he would get the ball.

ur thinking of kevin faulk.

but people also forget that NE won its first SB with corey dillon iirc, coulda been second sb. Ever since NE has gone to a more air it out style, they havent won a sb. NE was at its best not when Brady was the center piece, but when the run game and defense were...thats just my opinion.
NE has proven to be a great team...they just havent sealed the deal ever since they kinda gave up on the run game.

Fwiw, NE won it's first Super Bowl in 2001 with Antowaine Smith at RB (not Corey Dillon). It was Brady's first year as a starter (after Bledsoe went down)....passing attack was ranked 22nd in the league, rushing was ranked 11th.

They won their 2nd Super Bowl in 2003, again with Antowaine Smith, this time with the passing attack ranked 9th and the rushing attack ranked 27th.

They won their 3rd in 2004 with Corey Dillion, with passing ranked 11th and rushing ranked 7th.

Morehead State
07-04-2012, 10:53 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up. But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

GCGiant
07-05-2012, 08:28 AM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?

The universe that has Eli throwing the pass...

I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone!

gumby742
07-05-2012, 09:28 AM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw? The universe that has Eli throwing the pass... I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone!</P>


From a standpoint that Brady may not be under the same scrutiny, this is a fair statement. Brady's pass imo, was poor - not as bad as I originally thought, but poor. Just like I thought most of Eli's tipped INTs were a product of his poor passes AND the WRs not doing their job.</P>

yoeddy
07-05-2012, 09:29 AM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?

The universe that has Eli throwing the pass...

I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone!

The Giants wouldn't even have had to lose the game for some to be on Eli's case...

gumby742
07-05-2012, 09:33 AM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw? The universe that has Eli throwing the pass... I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone! The Giants wouldn't even have had to lose the game for some to be on Eli's case...</P>


After his amazing season? I highly doubt that short of obvious trolls like Can'tBlameShockeyNow (who'suserid I find to be hilarious btw).</P>

Moss#83
07-05-2012, 11:17 AM
Manning would have zipped that ball to WW after he crosses the 40 yard line. People don't realize Brady lobbed the ball a little late.

yoeddy
07-05-2012, 11:41 AM
Manning would have zipped that ball to WW after he crosses the 40 yard line. People don't realize Brady lobbed the ball a little late.

Brady released the ball 2 seconds after the snap. How much sooner should he have thrown it?

Just to take this thread in a slightly different direction, I look at Canty's comments and he notes "Eli's ability to elevate his game and elevate the play of all the guys around him in the most crucial situations in the football game I believe is the difference." In Super Bowl 42, Tyree makes the impossible catch. In Super Bowl 46, Mario Manningham makes the amazing catch. Maybe this is guys who are elevated because of Eli? And that Wes Welker not making the catch is Brady not elevating the guys around him as well?

giantsfan420
07-05-2012, 12:15 PM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw? The universe that has Eli throwing the pass... I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone! The Giants wouldn't even have had to lose the game for some to be on Eli's case...</P>


After his amazing season?* I highly doubt that short of obvious trolls like Can'tBlameShockeyNow (who's*userid *I find to be hilarious btw).</P>

what r u talking about? just this past season alone, i saw several posts from several posters not unlike yourself who gave eli plenty a hard time after games we won, as yoeddy stated correctly.

and you and MS most certainly placed blame on eli for those ints that hit off the wr hands, but with brady, THEN the qb doesnt get blamed lmfao great example of a double standard. 2010, eli had 25 ints (a lot were his fault no doubt) but some did go off both hands of the wr, and it didnt/doesnt matter to MS or Gumby (just using as an example they certainly werent alone) but when Brady is the qb in almost the exact same situation, its "how is it a bad throw when it hits both hands of the wr?" lmfao!

burier
07-05-2012, 12:52 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

buffyblue
07-05-2012, 01:11 PM
I think the ball to Wes Welker should have been caught. I think it wasn’t the best throw but I also think that Wes Welker piroeting and going back for it made the throw look worse than it was. The throw was made to hit Wes Welker in stride in my opinion. However there is no way that folks can argue that this drop was all Wes Welkers fault and on the same hand blame Eli Manning for the interceptions that went out of the recievers hands that should have been caught.

gumby742
07-05-2012, 01:17 PM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw? The universe that has Eli throwing the pass... I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone! The Giants wouldn't even have had to lose the game for some to be on Eli's case...</P>


After his amazing season? I highly doubt that short of obvious trolls like Can'tBlameShockeyNow (who'suserid I find to be hilarious btw).</P>


what r u talking about? just this past season alone, i saw several posts from several posters not unlike yourself who gave eli plenty a hard time after games we won, as yoeddy stated correctly. and you and MS most certainly placed blame on eli for those ints that hit off the wr hands, but with brady, THEN the qb doesnt get blamed lmfao great example of a double standard. 2010, eli had 25 ints (a lot were his fault no doubt) but some did go off both hands of the wr, and it didnt/doesnt matter to MS or Gumby (just using as an example they certainly werent alone) but when Brady is the qb in almost the exact same situation, its "how is it a bad throw when it hits both hands of the wr?" lmfao!</P>


Examples please. Btw, posting "Eli had a bad game today." is not giving him a "hard time". Example. The Rams game, Eli for all intensive purposes had a sub par game. But one game doesn't make or break his over all performance during the season. By the post season, the regular season already played itself out and Eli's performance was nothing short of dominating.</P>


I put PART of the blame on Eli for his tipped INTs. It wasBOTH Eli's and ths WRs fault. And ifyou look in the other threads, I said that Brady's pass was poor. </P>


Edit: At the end of the day, some posters are far too sensitive over anything Eli. It's bordering on ridiculous.</P>

BeatYale
07-05-2012, 01:17 PM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw? The universe that has Eli throwing the pass... I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone! The Giants wouldn't even have had to lose the game for some to be on Eli's case...</P>


After his amazing season?* I highly doubt that short of obvious trolls like Can'tBlameShockeyNow (who's*userid *I find to be hilarious btw).</P>

what r u talking about? just this past season alone, i saw several posts from several posters not unlike yourself who gave eli plenty a hard time after games we won, as yoeddy stated correctly.

and you and MS most certainly placed blame on eli for those ints that hit off the wr hands, but with brady, THEN the qb doesnt get blamed lmfao great example of a double standard. 2010, eli had 25 ints (a lot were his fault no doubt) but some did go off both hands of the wr, and it didnt/doesnt matter to MS or Gumby (just using as an example they certainly werent alone) but when Brady is the qb in almost the exact same situation, its "how is it a bad throw when it hits both hands of the wr?" lmfao!

Eli gets less slack because he's been inconsistent throughout his career. Were Rodgers, Brady or Brees labeled as 'skittish' by their GM's? His bad habits aren't behind him completely. The 49ers playoff game, he was chucking it into coverage late in the game, thankfully the 49er DB's were colliding into each other and dropping the interceptions - preventing them from winning the game.

It's pretty obvious that his 4th quarter heroics are still overshadowed by the more efficient TD-Int ratios by the other 'elite' QB's. As of now comparing his career with Rodgers, Brady and Brees. He's the only one that has thrown more ints than games played. Excuses can be made for any QB in the NFL. Regardless of the reasons for his interceptions, they are still a blemish on his career and the main reason why he's not considered 'great' by the masses.

Right now he's only one season removed from the turnover machine he was in 2010.

yoeddy
07-05-2012, 01:25 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

yoeddy
07-05-2012, 01:29 PM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw? The universe that has Eli throwing the pass... I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone! The Giants wouldn't even have had to lose the game for some to be on Eli's case...</P>


After his amazing season?* I highly doubt that short of obvious trolls like Can'tBlameShockeyNow (who's*userid *I find to be hilarious btw).</P>

what r u talking about? just this past season alone, i saw several posts from several posters not unlike yourself who gave eli plenty a hard time after games we won, as yoeddy stated correctly.

and you and MS most certainly placed blame on eli for those ints that hit off the wr hands, but with brady, THEN the qb doesnt get blamed lmfao great example of a double standard. 2010, eli had 25 ints (a lot were his fault no doubt) but some did go off both hands of the wr, and it didnt/doesnt matter to MS or Gumby (just using as an example they certainly werent alone) but when Brady is the qb in almost the exact same situation, its "how is it a bad throw when it hits both hands of the wr?" lmfao!

Eli gets less slack because he's been inconsistent throughout his career. Were Rodgers, Brady or Brees labeled as 'skittish' by their GM's? His bad habits aren't behind him completely. The 49ers playoff game, he was chucking it into coverage late in the game, thankfully the 49er DB's were colliding into each other and dropping the interceptions - preventing them from winning the game.

It's pretty obvious that his 4th quarter heroics are still overshadowed by the more efficient TD-Int ratios by the other 'elite' QB's. As of now comparing his career with Rodgers, Brady and Brees. He's the only one that has thrown more ints than games played. Excuses can be made for any QB in the NFL. Regardless of the reasons for his interceptions, they are still a blemish on his career and the main reason why he's not considered 'great' by the masses.

Right now he's only one season removed from the turnover machine he was in 2010.

Brees was let go by the Chargers because they didn't see enough from him to keep him....and then even with the Saints, he had a lot of INTs and fumbles the same way Eli did in one season. So it's not like he has been a model of consistency either...

gumby742
07-05-2012, 01:40 PM
In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw? The universe that has Eli throwing the pass... I know you will deny it, but if Eli had made that throw and lost that game in the same manner...a lot of people here would want his sorry butt gone! The Giants wouldn't even have had to lose the game for some to be on Eli's case...</P>


After his amazing season? I highly doubt that short of obvious trolls like Can'tBlameShockeyNow (who'suserid I find to be hilarious btw).</P>


what r u talking about? just this past season alone, i saw several posts from several posters not unlike yourself who gave eli plenty a hard time after games we won, as yoeddy stated correctly. and you and MS most certainly placed blame on eli for those ints that hit off the wr hands, but with brady, THEN the qb doesnt get blamed lmfao great example of a double standard. 2010, eli had 25 ints (a lot were his fault no doubt) but some did go off both hands of the wr, and it didnt/doesnt matter to MS or Gumby (just using as an example they certainly werent alone) but when Brady is the qb in almost the exact same situation, its "how is it a bad throw when it hits both hands of the wr?" lmfao! Eli gets less slack because he's been inconsistent throughout his career. Were Rodgers, Brady or Brees labeled as 'skittish' by their GM's? His bad habits aren't behind him completely. The 49ers playoff game, he was chucking it into coverage late in the game, thankfully the 49er DB's were colliding into each other and dropping the interceptions - preventing them from winning the game. It's pretty obvious that his 4th quarter heroics are still overshadowed by the more efficient TD-Int ratios by the other 'elite' QB's. As of now comparing his career with Rodgers, Brady and Brees. He's the only one that has thrown more ints than games played. Excuses can be made for any QB in the NFL. Regardless of the reasons for his interceptions, they are still a blemish on his career and the main reason why he's not considered 'great' by the masses. Right now he's only one season removed from the turnover machine he was in 2010. Brees was let go by the Chargers because they didn't see enough from him to keep him....and then even with the Saints, he had a lot of INTs and fumbles the same way Eli did in one season. So it's not like he has been a model of consistency either...</P>


I believe Matt brought up a good point that Eli started out very much like Brees did his first few years. If Eli continues on his awesome performance last season for the next X years Brees has been doing it, he'll get the acclaim Brees is getting now.</P>

burier
07-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

yoeddy
07-05-2012, 03:17 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

burier
07-05-2012, 04:14 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

yoeddy
07-05-2012, 05:53 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

burier
07-05-2012, 06:01 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.

yoeddy
07-05-2012, 06:16 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.

So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting....

Blue_Buddha
07-05-2012, 06:37 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

Not to take anything away from your video analysis but it is very hard for a receiver in stride to turn the opposite direction once he has tracked the ball.

*edit: The answer lies between both arguments it was a miscommunication.The QB threw it to the high and outside and receiver was looking for low and to the inside. Fortunately for us the throw was just a tad bit high and to the outside for Welker to complete the play.

NYG4lifeNYK
07-05-2012, 06:38 PM
Take notes Amani.....


Canty strikes me as the guy that will LAWAYS say how he truly feels and Canty would make an EXCELLENT analyst in my opinion.

Drez
07-05-2012, 07:00 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</p>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</p>


You crack me up. But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</p>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.
It doesn't matter when Welker turned his head back or when the ball was thrown. Coverage dictated that the ball needed to go to the outside shoulder. Welker ran for over 10 yards looking back over his inside shoulder.

Moss#83
07-05-2012, 07:14 PM
Manning would have zipped that ball to WW after he crosses the 40 yard line. People don't realize Brady lobbed the ball a little late.

Brady released the ball 2 seconds after the snap. How much sooner should he have thrown it?

Just to take this thread in a slightly different direction, I look at Canty's comments and he notes "Eli's ability to elevate his game and elevate the play of all the guys around him in the most crucial situations in the football game I believe is the difference." In Super Bowl 42, Tyree makes the impossible catch. In Super Bowl 46, Mario Manningham makes the amazing catch. Maybe this is guys who are elevated because of Eli? And that Wes Welker not making the catch is Brady not elevating the guys around him as well?Obviously he should have released the ball a bit quicker than 2 seconds. He put too much air in the ball and it was a little behind WW. Still catchable but if Brady makes a quicker pass which he should've seen before the snap that's a first down.

As for your last paragraph, I don't believe in magically elevating players around you. They either make the catches or they don't. MM and Tyree made those catches because they are skilled football players. We see NFL players make tough acrobatic catches every week.

GCGiant
07-06-2012, 07:07 AM
Coverage dictated that the ball needed to go to the outside shoulder. Welker ran for over 10 yards looking back over his inside shoulder.


It was blown coverage...Welker was wide open. The situation dictated that Brady complete the pass and he didn't because he made Welker contort his body to get to it rather than just throw it right to him.

I don't think Brady was trying to lead him away from the defender...he just blew it. It happens even to the best.

yoeddy
07-06-2012, 07:58 AM
Coverage dictated that the ball needed to go to the outside shoulder. Welker ran for over 10 yards looking back over his inside shoulder.


It was blown coverage...Welker was wide open. The situation dictated that Brady complete the pass and he didn't because he made Welker contort his body to get to it rather than just throw it right to him.

I don't think Brady was trying to lead him away from the defender...he just blew it. It happens even to the best.

Yes, it was a blown coverage...KP was too far inside. Why would you want to throw the ball inside and give KP the opportunity to make up ground on his mistake?

GCGiant
07-06-2012, 08:07 AM
Coverage dictated that the ball needed to go to the outside shoulder. Welker ran for over 10 yards looking back over his inside shoulder.


It was blown coverage...Welker was wide open. The situation dictated that Brady complete the pass and he didn't because he made Welker contort his body to get to it rather than just throw it right to him.

I don't think Brady was trying to lead him away from the defender...he just blew it. It happens even to the best.

Yes, it was a blown coverage...KP was too far inside. Why would you want to throw the ball inside and give KP the opportunity to make up ground on his mistake?

To complete the pass and keep the drive alive. When you pass the 1st down marker, they give you 4 more plays in this league.

So what if KP recovers ground and is able to make the tackle. It is far more important that he make the catch and keep the drive alive.

There is no way that KP can recover enough ground to make a pick if the ball is thrown inside rather than out. You have to keep the drive alive and not take chances...and I don't believe Tom was taking a chance...he just made a poor throw.

yoeddy
07-06-2012, 08:12 AM
Coverage dictated that the ball needed to go to the outside shoulder. Welker ran for over 10 yards looking back over his inside shoulder.


It was blown coverage...Welker was wide open. The situation dictated that Brady complete the pass and he didn't because he made Welker contort his body to get to it rather than just throw it right to him.

I don't think Brady was trying to lead him away from the defender...he just blew it. It happens even to the best.

Yes, it was a blown coverage...KP was too far inside. Why would you want to throw the ball inside and give KP the opportunity to make up ground on his mistake?

To complete the pass and keep the drive alive. When you pass the 1st down marker, they give you 4 more plays in this league.

So what if KP recovers ground and is able to make the tackle. It is far more important that he make the catch and keep the drive alive.

There is no way that KP can recover enough ground to make a pick if the ball is thrown inside rather than out. You have to keep the drive alive and not take chances...and I don't believe Tom was taking a chance...he just made a poor throw.

Brady was going for the jugular (as he always does)...Welker was wide open, and if he does what he is supposed to do (run to the open space), he scores and it's game over. Playing it safe is not Tom Brady's style, and Wes Welker knows that...

If Brady wanted to play it safe, he had a WR on the sideline on a come-back at 8 yards and Hernandez uncovered across the middle at 5 yards...either of those would have kept the drive alive (it was 2nd down)....both of those were safer than a 25 yard shot downfield...

GCGiant
07-06-2012, 08:21 AM
Well...to be honest...my opinion is that "luck" is more Brady's style, and against the Giants the last 3 meetings he has been on the wrong end of that stick.

I am going purely on memory here...and don't think that I am trying to say that Brady has no talent...because he does...but he also has had fortune on his side in the past...but not so much recently.

Brady needs protection to be Brady. I think that is the one spot that Eli has the edge...and it may be because Eli has had more practice at trying to escape the rush and complete the pass. Brady, in the early years, had the luxury of scanning the field for seconds before making decisions...and when you give him time, he will absolutely destroy you.

jakegibbs
07-06-2012, 09:13 AM
Coverage dictated that the ball needed to go to the outside shoulder. Welker ran for over 10 yards looking back over his inside shoulder.
It was blown coverage...Welker was wide open. The situation dictated that Brady complete the pass and he didn't because he made Welker contort his body to get to it rather than just throw it right to him. I don't think Brady was trying to lead him away from the defender...he just blew it. It happens even to the best.</P>


</P>


+1 Your exactly correct. When a reciever is that wide open you have to put the ball right on his jersey number &amp; the ball just got away from him. It happens it's football but who's to say they score after the catch. Maybe only get a field goal &amp; Eli has a 1:12 to lead them back down the field for the winning TD like he did in 07. That play didn't lose the game. Not connecting on the hail marry on the last play lost the game. He put that one right on the money but in heavy traffic. Maybe if they had Nicks it would have been caught. We will never know will we. </P>

yoeddy
07-06-2012, 09:23 AM
Well...to be honest...my opinion is that "luck" is more Brady's style, and against the Giants the last 3 meetings he has been on the wrong end of that stick.

I am going purely on memory here...and don't think that I am trying to say that Brady has no talent...because he does...but he also has had fortune on his side in the past...but not so much recently.

Brady needs protection to be Brady. I think that is the one spot that Eli has the edge...and it may be because Eli has had more practice at trying to escape the rush and complete the pass. Brady, in the early years, had the luxury of scanning the field for seconds before making decisions...and when you give him time, he will absolutely destroy you.

Not sure it's fair to say that he "needs" time to be great...it's just that he's not had a lot of situations where he has had to deal with pass rush pressure. The one time I can remember is in SB42 where he was hit a lot, and quite frankly he had a pretty good game then...

GCGiant
07-06-2012, 09:49 AM
The one time I can remember is in SB42 where he was hit a lot, and quite frankly he had a pretty good game then...

Yes...I will agree...pretty good...but not great, which is what he had to be to win that game.

burier
07-06-2012, 10:15 AM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.

So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting....

No.

...I expect him to make an acurate throw...but he didn't... then he threw Welker under the bus for it.

"I'll keep throwing to him."

Really? Well no **** Sherlock. There's a bunch of other recievers who would have just let the poorly thrown ball sail over their heads and waved their arms in disgust.

burier
07-06-2012, 10:23 AM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</p>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</p>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</p>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.
It doesn't matter when Welker turned his head back or when the ball was thrown. Coverage dictated that the ball needed to go to the outside shoulder. Welker ran for over 10 yards looking back over his inside shoulder.


That's a ridiculous statement.

What you're basically saying is on a Go route where by design the ball is meant to be delivered to the reciever 40 yards down the field the QB should throw the ball 40 yards down the field even if the Reciever clearly won't be able to run it down...and for what? So you can say to reciever "You should have been deeper."

Maybe in practice you over throw the guy on purpose and then coach.

In the heat of battle you throw a god damn completion and then coach.

All that said...COVERAGE DICTACTED NOTHING.

The only thing coverage dictated on that play was that Welker was WIDE OPEN.

Should have been pitch and catch.

yoeddy
07-06-2012, 10:32 AM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.

So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting....

No.

...I expect him to make an acurate throw...but he didn't... then he threw Welker under the bus for it.

"I'll keep throwing to him."

Really? Well no **** Sherlock. There's a bunch of other recievers who would have just let the poorly thrown ball sail over their heads and waved their arms in disgust.

I think you love the scent of Wes Welker's crotch. He can do no wrong...

burier
07-06-2012, 10:49 AM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.

So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting....

No.

...I expect him to make an acurate throw...but he didn't... then he threw Welker under the bus for it.

"I'll keep throwing to him."

Really? Well no **** Sherlock. There's a bunch of other recievers who would have just let the poorly thrown ball sail over their heads and waved their arms in disgust.

I think you love the scent of Wes Welker's crotch. He can do no wrong...

lol.

Dude I hate the Patriots. As in I hate every single player and coach on the team. Wes Welker included. Who btw is completely overrated and a product of a system that is predicated on high percentage passing.

And if we're being completely honest. Based on all of the hype surrounding Wes he should have pulled the damn ball down.

But if we're dealing in reality rather than perception...Wes doesn't even have the physical dimensions to get two hands on that ball and he did anyway. So props to him.

And if we're dealing in reality we should be able to call a spade a spade and say Brady chucked up a tremedously unclutch ball.

You should go on Youtube and set it up so that you can Watch the Welker pass imediately followed by the Manningham pass.

LOL it comes off like a tutorial on the Dos and Dont's of playing Quarterback.

As far as the Pats go we're talkin about team full of Juicers and cheaters. Wilfork tried poking Brandon Jabcobs in the Eye. The Light cat is/was extremely dirty.

Rodney Harrison played after the whistle like it was his job and don't get me started on the Beloved Bill Belichick.

And the team's completely phony and transparent humility makes me sick.

What makes me hate Tom Brady so much is how people bend their logic so to maintain his invincibility.

MS actually claimed to Marvel at how "Quiet" his feet are in the pocket. LOL There's usually no one near him! He get happy feet just like the rest of em when the pocket breaks down maybe worse than the rest.

Thats on tape. So to say something that contradicts whats on tape is psychotic.

And here we are again bending logic to because "Brady could never make a bad throw" so we just blame someone else.

yoeddy
07-06-2012, 10:54 AM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.

So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting....

No.

...I expect him to make an acurate throw...but he didn't... then he threw Welker under the bus for it.

"I'll keep throwing to him."

Really? Well no **** Sherlock. There's a bunch of other recievers who would have just let the poorly thrown ball sail over their heads and waved their arms in disgust.

I think you love the scent of Wes Welker's crotch. He can do no wrong...

lol.

Dude I hate the Patriots. As in I hate every single player and coach on the team. Wes Welker included. Who btw is completely overrated and a product of a system that is predicated on high percentage passing.

And if we're being completely honest. Based on all of the hype surrounding Wes he should have pulled the damn ball down.

But if we're dealing in reality rather than perception...Wes doesn't even have the physical dimensions to get two hands on that ball and he did anyway. So props to him.

And if we're dealing in reality we should be able to call a spade a spade and say Brady chucked up a tremedously unclutch ball.

You should go on Youtube and set it up so that you can Watch the Welker pass imediately followed by the Manningham pass.

LOL it comes off like a tutorial on the Dos and Dont's of playing Quarterback.

We're talkin about team full of Juicers and cheaters. Wilfork tried poking Brandon Jabcobs in the Eye. The Light cat is/was extremely dirty.

Rodney Harrison played after the whistle like it was his job and don't get me started on the Beloved Bill Belichick.

And the team's completely phony and transparent humility makes me sick.

What makes me hate Tom Brady so much is how people bend their logic so to maintain his invincibility.

MS actually claimed to Marvel at how "Quiet" his feet are in the pocket. LOL There's usually no one near him! He get happy feet just like the rest of em when the pocket breaks down maybe worse than the rest.

Thats on tape. So to say something that contradicts whats on tape is psychotic.

And here we are again bending logic to because "Brady could never make a bad throw" so we just blame someone else.

I love the pass to Manningham. The safety had cheated to the middle and was going to be late to cover the top on Manningham's side. Manningham ran his route to the sideline, right were he was supposed to be given the coverage...

Who said Brady can't make a bad throw? I just said that he didn't in this particular situation.

burier
07-06-2012, 11:51 AM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>

First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying.

Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw?

If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it...

There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch.

As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw.

Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach.

I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch.

I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way.

And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him.

Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up...

It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree.

To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback.

Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him.

Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway.

Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't.

Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada.

Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage.

Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch.

So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating.

To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating.

Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split.

Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame.

That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame.

Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down.

Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN!

Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down.

This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT.


And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins.

Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you.

Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils.

My last post on this subject...

If you look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI

...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone.

So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it....

I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless.

So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting....

No.

...I expect him to make an acurate throw...but he didn't... then he threw Welker under the bus for it.

"I'll keep throwing to him."

Really? Well no **** Sherlock. There's a bunch of other recievers who would have just let the poorly thrown ball sail over their heads and waved their arms in disgust.

I think you love the scent of Wes Welker's crotch. He can do no wrong...

lol.

Dude I hate the Patriots. As in I hate every single player and coach on the team. Wes Welker included. Who btw is completely overrated and a product of a system that is predicated on high percentage passing.

And if we're being completely honest. Based on all of the hype surrounding Wes he should have pulled the damn ball down.

But if we're dealing in reality rather than perception...Wes doesn't even have the physical dimensions to get two hands on that ball and he did anyway. So props to him.

And if we're dealing in reality we should be able to call a spade a spade and say Brady chucked up a tremedously unclutch ball.

You should go on Youtube and set it up so that you can Watch the Welker pass imediately followed by the Manningham pass.

LOL it comes off like a tutorial on the Dos and Dont's of playing Quarterback.

We're talkin about team full of Juicers and cheaters. Wilfork tried poking Brandon Jabcobs in the Eye. The Light cat is/was extremely dirty.

Rodney Harrison played after the whistle like it was his job and don't get me started on the Beloved Bill Belichick.

And the team's completely phony and transparent humility makes me sick.

What makes me hate Tom Brady so much is how people bend their logic so to maintain his invincibility.

MS actually claimed to Marvel at how "Quiet" his feet are in the pocket. LOL There's usually no one near him! He get happy feet just like the rest of em when the pocket breaks down maybe worse than the rest.

Thats on tape. So to say something that contradicts whats on tape is psychotic.

And here we are again bending logic to because "Brady could never make a bad throw" so we just blame someone else.

I love the pass to Manningham. The safety had cheated to the middle and was going to be late to cover the top on Manningham's side. Manningham ran his route to the sideline, right were he was supposed to be given the coverage...

Who said Brady can't make a bad throw? I just said that he didn't in this particular situation.

I know you didn't.

Regarding the Welker throw we'll agree to disagree. No hard feelings.

but it seems like there are some people who have been fed this line about Brady's greatness to the point where they can't accept any sort of flaw.

I mean Me and MS were going back and forth about weather Brady's weakness is pressure...I mean why argue that point? Its a fact that even Brady accepts.

Before the AFC conference championship I remember Brady saying something to the affect of "I know that alot of teams strategy is to come out and pressure me."

And then he went on to talk about how he knows there gonna come after him and "Bring it on" or some other such nonsense.

He's going to go down as one of the greatest ever but he's isn't infallable.

GMENAGAIN
07-06-2012, 12:04 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up. But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>


First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying. Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw? If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it... There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch. As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw. Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach. I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch. I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way. And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him. Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up... It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree. To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback. Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him. Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway. Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't. Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada. Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage. Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch. So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating. To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating. Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split. Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame. That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame. Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down. Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN! Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down. This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT. And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins. Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you. Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils. My last post on this subject... If you look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI ...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone. So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it.... I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless. So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting.... No. ...I expect him to make an acurate throw...but he didn't... then he threw Welker under the bus for it. "I'll keep throwing to him." Really? Well no **** Sherlock. There's a bunch of other recievers who would have just let the poorly thrown ball sail over their heads and waved their arms in disgust. I think you love the scent of Wes Welker's crotch. He can do no wrong... lol. Dude I hate the Patriots. As in I hate every single player and coach on the team. Wes Welker included. Who btw is completely overrated and a product of a system that is predicated on high percentage passing. And if we're being completely honest. Based on all of the hype surrounding Wes he should have pulled the damn ball down. But if we're dealing in reality rather than perception...Wes doesn't even have the physical dimensions to get two hands on that ball and he did anyway. So props to him. And if we're dealing in reality we should be able to call a spade a spade and say Brady chucked up a tremedously unclutch ball. You should go on Youtube and set it up so that you can Watch the Welker pass imediately followed by the Manningham pass. LOL it comes off like a tutorial on the Dos and Dont's of playing Quarterback. We're talkin about team full of Juicers and cheaters. Wilfork tried poking Brandon Jabcobs in the Eye. The Light cat is/was extremely dirty. Rodney Harrison played after the whistle like it was his job and don't get me started on the Beloved Bill Belichick. And the team's completely phony and transparent humility makes me sick. What makes me hate Tom Brady so much is how people bend their logic so to maintain his invincibility. MS actually claimed to Marvel at how "Quiet" his feet are in the pocket. LOL There's usually no one near him! He get happy feet just like the rest of em when the pocket breaks down maybe worse than the rest. Thats on tape. So to say something that contradicts whats on tape is psychotic. And here we are again bending logic to because "Brady could never make a bad throw" so we just blame someone else. I love the pass to Manningham. The safety had cheated to the middle and was going to be late to cover the top on Manningham's side. Manningham ran his route to the sideline, right were he was supposed to be given the coverage... Who said Brady can't make a bad throw? I just said that he didn't in this particular situation. I know you didn't. Regarding the Welker throw we'll agree to disagree. No hard feelings. but it seems like there are some people who have been fed this line about Brady's greatness to the point where they can't accept any sort of flaw. I mean Me and MS were going back and forth about weather Brady's weakness is pressure...I mean why argue that point? Its a fact that even Brady accepts. Before the AFC conference championship I remember Brady saying something to the affect of "I know that alot of teams strategy is to come out and pressure me." And then he went on to talk about how he knows there gonna come after him and "Bring it on" or some other such nonsense. He's going to go down as one of the greatest ever <FONT size=4>but he's in infallable.</FONT></P>


[:^)]</P>

burier
07-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Pats fans don't even make so many excuses for Brady. It was a bad throw. There's no way around it. Perhaps if Welker is supposed to be a premier receiver he should have come down with it anyway but thats a different discussion.</P>


In what universe does a throw that hits you head high in both hands a bad throw?</P>


You crack me up.* But if you want to keep this alive, I will too.</P>


First if all it wasn't head high. Second of all I don't want to keep it going because I don't believe you believe what you're saying. Its very clearly a bad throw that Welker made a nice adjustment on. Do you love Brady so much that you believe he incapable of making a bad throw? If it was so clear, then why is this debate going on for so long? IMHO, it was clearly a throw to the correct spot based on the coverage, and Welker turned the wrong way to receive it... There's a debate because so many people have fallen in love with the scent of Tom Brady's crotch. As stated; had Eli thrown that ball there would be no debate because everyone would just call it like it is: bad throw. Also let the record show that had Welker looked over the opposite shoulder the ball would have still been out of reach. I, for one, am not enamored with Tom Brady's crotch. I am, however, enamored with the idea of a QB reading coverages quickly and making throws based on that coverage...and not staring at the WR and throwing a ball towards safety coverage simply because the WR turned his shoulder the wrong way. And I completely disagree with your on the record comment about Welker looking over the other shoulder and the ball being out of reach. The ball hit both of his hands despite his running with his head turned (slowing down his run), jumping and twisting to get to it...had he kept running and let the ball come over his left shoulder, he would have scored a TD with all the open space in front of him. Btw - I'm more than happy to bash Brady when its appropriate. As I've said before, I wouldn't trade Eli for Brady straight up. But this play he was right and made the right throw. I don't care what Pats fans think about it...Welker knows he messed up... It almost feels like we're looking at two different plays. So I'll say my final peace and we can agree to disagree. To me the reverse endzone angle shows how high and wide the ball was when it really should have been an easy completetion for an NFL Quarterback. Kenny Phillips wasn't even close on that play so I don't know why people keep excusing the throw based on him. Brady himself said the coverage was busted. When a coverage is busted you make a high percentage throw you don't shade the reciever away from coverage that's two steps out of position anyway. Let me stress Welker is extremely wide open on the play. Open by college football standards...all Brady had to do was throw him the ball and he didn't. Further more I can't for the life of me understand why people are trying to blame the play on a slot wr when the guy throwing him the ball had his typical clean pocket and supposed to be a first ballot hall of famer top QB of all time yada yada yada. Seems to me a QB with those credentials should be able to deliver a catchable ball against a weak pass rush and broken coverage. Wes Welker's resume doesn't say anything about running balls down over his shoulder and elevating to pluck high balls out of the sky. He's a slot reciever. His resume says High quickness, low top end speed, runs after the catch. So we clearly just have different perspective's on football in general but you said if Brady had clearly made a bad throw why are we debating. To that I say if Brady didn't make a terrible throw we wouldn't be debating. Brady is so untouchable that even a half decent throw would have left everyone in silence. A terrible throw results in a 50/50 split. Brady really is special. They say QBs take all of the credit and all of blame. That's true if you're not Tom Brady. If you're Tom Brady you take all of the credit and a 5'11 slot reciever can take all the blame. Edit: Took a one last look at the play and I think this thread needs to be shut down. Its clearly a giant Choke by Brady....period. Also I fnd it HILARIOUS that people are talking about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over when Welker is already looking over his RIGHT SHOULDER PRIOR TO THE BALL BEING THROWN! Meaning That Brady threw the ball over Welker's left shoulder KNOWING that Welker would not/could not be in position to cleanly pull it down. This makes the argument about what shoulder Welker should have been looking over MOOT. And to address MS who somehow believes we're supposed to slobber over our opponents to add additonal status to our wins. Brady was far less prodcutive in SB42 and to some degree SB 46 becasue the Giants were great enough to generate pressure...which just so happens to be Brady's Kryptonite. I don't have anything to do with trying to diminish our wins...and you know it. The difference here is I'm not a closetted Patriots fan like you. Those two Super Bowl wins are special because of the greatness of the Quarterback position of the New York Giants. To the victor go the spoils. My last post on this subject... If you look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT6XziIQ5RI ...and you stop the video just at the moment where you see Brady make the decision to pass and start his wind-up to throw (at the 1 second mark), Welker is not yet looking back...Welker is at about the 39yard line. Let the video run to the 8 second mark, and it's clear that Welker doesn't start to turn his head until he reaches the 37 yard line (after Brady has started his throwing motion). From there, you can see that Welker is looking back at the ball for a good 10 yards of his run...PLENTY of time for him to recognize that the ball is going to his other shoulder...and rather than twist around like he did, he could have easily turned to his other side and made the catch. And he wouldn't even have had to do that if he had just adjusted to the coverage the way he should have and turned to the direction that would have given him an open lane to the endzone. So...I agree that the direction that Welker should have been looking is MOOT...Brady threw the ball before Welker looked back, placing the ball in the spot that would have given Welker the best opportunity to catch and run away from the coverage. Welker was looking inside and had plenty of time to adjust to where the ball was being thrown, but instead decided to twist awkwardly...and even then, he was able to get both hands on the ball. His reaction to dropping the ball after it hit both of his palms was clearly one where he knew he blew it.... I'm willing to agree to disagree but not on fact. No matter where you pause the video his head turns before the ball is released and if Welker was looking over his other shoulder the ball was still highly inaccurate and most likely falls incomplete regardless. So you are expecting Brady to change the placement of his throw after he has started his throwing motion but before the ball is released? Interesting.... No. ...I expect him to make an acurate throw...but he didn't... then he threw Welker under the bus for it. "I'll keep throwing to him." Really? Well no **** Sherlock. There's a bunch of other recievers who would have just let the poorly thrown ball sail over their heads and waved their arms in disgust. I think you love the scent of Wes Welker's crotch. He can do no wrong... lol. Dude I hate the Patriots. As in I hate every single player and coach on the team. Wes Welker included. Who btw is completely overrated and a product of a system that is predicated on high percentage passing. And if we're being completely honest. Based on all of the hype surrounding Wes he should have pulled the damn ball down. But if we're dealing in reality rather than perception...Wes doesn't even have the physical dimensions to get two hands on that ball and he did anyway. So props to him. And if we're dealing in reality we should be able to call a spade a spade and say Brady chucked up a tremedously unclutch ball. You should go on Youtube and set it up so that you can Watch the Welker pass imediately followed by the Manningham pass. LOL it comes off like a tutorial on the Dos and Dont's of playing Quarterback. We're talkin about team full of Juicers and cheaters. Wilfork tried poking Brandon Jabcobs in the Eye. The Light cat is/was extremely dirty. Rodney Harrison played after the whistle like it was his job and don't get me started on the Beloved Bill Belichick. And the team's completely phony and transparent humility makes me sick. What makes me hate Tom Brady so much is how people bend their logic so to maintain his invincibility. MS actually claimed to Marvel at how "Quiet" his feet are in the pocket. LOL There's usually no one near him! He get happy feet just like the rest of em when the pocket breaks down maybe worse than the rest. Thats on tape. So to say something that contradicts whats on tape is psychotic. And here we are again bending logic to because "Brady could never make a bad throw" so we just blame someone else. I love the pass to Manningham. The safety had cheated to the middle and was going to be late to cover the top on Manningham's side. Manningham ran his route to the sideline, right were he was supposed to be given the coverage... Who said Brady can't make a bad throw? I just said that he didn't in this particular situation. I know you didn't. Regarding the Welker throw we'll agree to disagree. No hard feelings. but it seems like there are some people who have been fed this line about Brady's greatness to the point where they can't accept any sort of flaw. I mean Me and MS were going back and forth about weather Brady's weakness is pressure...I mean why argue that point? Its a fact that even Brady accepts. Before the AFC conference championship I remember Brady saying something to the affect of "I know that alot of teams strategy is to come out and pressure me." And then he went on to talk about how he knows there gonna come after him and "Bring it on" or some other such nonsense. He's going to go down as one of the greatest ever <FONT size=4>but he's in infallable.</FONT></P>


[:^)]</P>

lol. What's it like to have no friends?

GMENAGAIN
07-06-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm guessing a little more fun than being dumb AND having no friends . . . . </P>