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gmen0820
07-03-2012, 01:49 PM
I’ve spent much of this spring and summer writing about quarterbacks. I have intentionally stayed away from rankings and lists. I strongly believe there are far too many variables to distill detailed and intricate evaluation to a generic list that does not inherently acknowledge or recognize those factors. In addition, as is always the case with lists, most focus on the order, rather than the substance of the reasoning.

I have also isolated the play of the quarterback from circumstances and situations outside of his control, basing my comments solely on the attributes, traits and characteristics necessary to consistently play the position at a high level. Certainly playoff wins and Super Bowl championships carry weight, but it always seemed disingenuous and dishonest to reduce judgment — and ultimately, legacy — to a mathematical equation based only on postseason wins and losses.

This is all prelude to a discussion of Eli Manning, now the proud owner of two Super Bowl rings with the New York Giants. I would submit few quarterbacks in recent memory have developed gradually and steadily over time in the manner Manning has. One could easily make the argument that this kind of measured, methodical progression is the ideal for quarterback development.


Note that winning Super Bowl XLII has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. That game was the signature example of the disconnect between result and process. Can anyone truly give Manning credit for David Tyree’s catch? A few plays earlier, the sure-handed Asante Samuel dropped an easy interception. But of course, the result made Manning a champion and a “winner.”

Manning has always been a quarterback willing to turn it loose. He intuitively understood “open” is different in the NFL than in college. Against zone coverage, voids are more constricted and close more quickly; against man coverage, the area in which to place the ball is much smaller. Manning never struggled with that transition. The willingness to make stick throws into tight windows is a positive in the NFL, not a negative. There’s no question he’s thrown some poor interceptions in his career, but he’s also pulled the trigger and completed balls on passes other quarterbacks would not have even attempted. Always keep in mind that interceptions must be closely scrutinized on an individual basis. It’s not a number that can be tossed out cavalierly, in an offhand manner, as if nothing more needs to be said. Unfortunately, it’s presented that way. Again, an example of reducing a multi-faceted element of the game to a simple statistic that often signifies nothing.

Manning, right from the start of his career, was given a full plate. His learning curve was accelerated. He was expected to recognize defensive fronts and adjust the running game accordingly at the line of scrimmage. That’s very difficult for a young quarterback. Early in his career, his head is filled with information that must be systematically processed, and more importantly, isolated so that the right call is made against the defensive alignment. Manning has been outstanding controlling the Giants running game. It’s an aspect of his game that is often overlooked.

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement, with the corollary ability to extend plays outside the pocket. We all remember the 38-yard completion to Mario Manningham late in the fourth quarter of Super Bowl XLVI; it was the single biggest play in the game. It also reflected many of the attributes that I have often written about, beginning with pre-snap recognition of the coverage.

It was Cover 2, with both New England Patriots safeties split, each responsible for one deep half of the field. The initial read for Manning was to the right, the two-receiver side. (Manningham was the single wide receiver to the left of the formation.) When Eli hit his plant step in the pocket, the routes to his progression side (the right) were not defined. He did not have a clear picture. There was no throw. Manning knew he had Manningham on the back-side fade. It was the safety to that side, not the corner, that he had to beat to make that throw....

Read more:

http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/07/03/cosell-talks-elis-arrived/

giantsfan420
07-03-2012, 01:59 PM
without reading a word of the post, THANK YOU.

i already know this is gonna be a great, interesting read. be back with an opinion after i read through it.

giantsfan420
07-03-2012, 02:14 PM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

Gmen2005
07-03-2012, 02:41 PM
Amazing article. Couldn't be happier with who we have leading this team.

greenca190
07-03-2012, 02:46 PM
I love Eli manning.

The lack of respect given to the man is often brought up on here, but when he gets it, he gets it from guys that you want to trust.

What I live the most is the amount of respect he gets from his teammates now. Loved hearing martellus Bennett come out and praise te guy after working with him for a week.

gumby742
07-03-2012, 03:03 PM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.

burier
07-03-2012, 03:07 PM
The article is tersely written so he gets props for that. But most of what he's saying now has been covered many months ago.

In addition he's off base about the Tyree catch. I think Bob Papa said it best when he said the play is great because "It has TWO parts"

Lost in all the Eli hate some have forgoten that Eli was under seige before throwing the ball. And most have never acknowleged that the placement of the ball was out of this world.

I'm not quite sure what the issue is but why don't people acknowlege that 1) Asante wasn't getting his feet in had he caught the ball. 2) Asante was in position to catch ball due to a busted route????

Also Cosell seems to want to talk out of both sides of his mouth when he called Eli's progression steady while also implying that Eli made drastic improvements in 2011.

Not to beat the dead horse I personally killed but the "drastic improvement" in Eli's play in 2011 comes mostly from being extremely overcritcized in years passed (Especially 2010) and improved WR play and this position is backed statistically.

Yeah...so..

giantsfan420
07-03-2012, 03:38 PM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.
lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
(edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.

gmen0820
07-03-2012, 03:42 PM
Not to beat the dead horse I personally killed but the "drastic improvement" in Eli's play in 2011 comes mostly from being extremely overcritcized in years passed (Especially 2010) and improved WR play and this position is backed statistically. Where did Cosell say Eli "drastically improved"?

Cosell clearly said that Eli showed significant improvement in two areas of his game, Pocket Presence and Progression Reading. If you're talking about this post, where you "killed" the dead horse:


1) I'm not oblivious to the widespread perception that Eli is inconsistent. I just feel it is inaccurate. In another thread someone stated that there is a believe that Eli is rattled by pressure which is not the case now and never was the case. Just because alot of people say it doesn't make it true especially when the opinion of many are molden by the few with loud microphones.

2) Like I indicated in the previous post I don't believe that passer rating (Or any stat) in a vacume is andvantageous tool for analytical purposes.

If we're going to use stats lets use large sample instead of cherry picking games or spots in certain seasons where Eli appeared to YOU to be playing irratically.

Eli's TD numbers from 2004-2008 in chronological order

6-24-24-23-21

As you know he played only 9 games his rookie year but for the next 4 years his numbers are pretty damn consistent, I stopped at 2008 because in 2009 his TD number jumps to 27...Which is a fairly considerable improvement....In 2010 he threw 31 tds.

Like it or not over time we're getting a player who is an amazingly consistent AND improving scorer of the football. (He'll likely match or better last years total this season)

2004-2008 Yards in Chronological order

1,043 - 3,762 - 3,244 -3,336 - 3,238

Again over in a 5 year span we're seeing very consistent yardage totals until 2009 when he again IMPROVED and broke the 4000 yards mark. (He broke the 4k mark in 2010 aswell and will very likely set a personal record for yardage this season.)

2004-2008 INTs in chronological order

9-17-18-20-*10

Keeping in mind that in his rookie year he only played 9 games even his INT numbers are very consistent year to year except for 2008 when the number IMPROVED drastically (See a theme here)

The mark of a poor argument is one that states others believe it so it must be true ala Hitler in Nazi Germany.

It doesn't matter how many talking heads want to call Eli inconsistent the numbers don't support it. the FACTS don't support it. He's been consistently improving as a player since he was drafted.

As far as the other thread you mention you'll have to remind me because I don't see anything wrong with our Defense other than Linebackers and I think our D coordinator has major issues he needs to work out with Jesus.

Edit: With the numbers I just presented I don't see how you can sit there with a straight face and say "Ill reserve judgement until next year...We've got 7 1/2 years of sample that reasonably predicts that next seasons numbers will better than this year's by and large

...You clearly would see that you have left the drastic improvements solely upon stats, leading many to believe that you see stats as the only basis of reasoning when it comes to QB improvement, OR consistency. Couple that with the fact that Cosell CLEARLY stated:


I have also isolated the play of the quarterback from circumstances and situations outside of his control, basing my comments solely on the attributes, traits and characteristics necessary to consistently play the position at a high level.

You should be able to see that while you may have disproved a flawed perception that Eli is inconsistent, and has not drastically improved, that you did not successfully shut the door on any reasoning that Eli has significantly improved in the "attributes, traits, and characteristics", such as pocket presence, and progression reading, because you "killed" the dead horse with solely the use of statistics.

gmen0820
07-03-2012, 03:55 PM
But let's keep in mind that Eli has been able to develop these areas, because he has always possessed these traits to some extent. It's hard to teach these core fundamentals if you don't have a feel for them. If you fold under pressure, it's hard to teach it, that's why people fear a guy like Weeden will bust because he folds in the face of a pass rush.

Eli has as much on his plate as any QB in the league, his steady improvement is great and statistically Burier has shown that Eli improves with consistency. Cosell also sees steady improvements, as will as significant improvements in some areas. I think everyone is basically arguing the same things.

Last year, people would argue if Eli was elite, now it's unanimous. Something had to change people minds over that time. Improved pocket play, and progression reading surely would have its effect on plenty of fan favorite measuring sticks, such as stats. So while we don't necessarily have the capabilities to gauge progression reading, and pocket play as well as Cosell, we can agree that Eli had a great year last year that proved a lot of doubters wrong, and if Cosell says that significant improvement was shown in those two areas of Eli's game, I think at the very least it is believable.

burier
07-03-2012, 04:02 PM
Not to beat the dead horse I personally killed but the "drastic improvement" in Eli's play in 2011 comes mostly from being extremely overcritcized in years passed (Especially 2010) and improved WR play and this position is backed statistically. Where did Cosell say Eli "drastically improved"?

Cosell clearly said that Eli showed significant improvement in two areas of his game, Pocket Presence and Progression Reading. If you're talking about this post, where you "killed" the dead horse:


1) I'm not oblivious to the widespread perception that Eli is inconsistent. I just feel it is inaccurate. In another thread someone stated that there is a believe that Eli is rattled by pressure which is not the case now and never was the case. Just because alot of people say it doesn't make it true especially when the opinion of many are molden by the few with loud microphones.

2) Like I indicated in the previous post I don't believe that passer rating (Or any stat) in a vacume is andvantageous tool for analytical purposes.

If we're going to use stats lets use large sample instead of cherry picking games or spots in certain seasons where Eli appeared to YOU to be playing irratically.

Eli's TD numbers from 2004-2008 in chronological order

6-24-24-23-21

As you know he played only 9 games his rookie year but for the next 4 years his numbers are pretty damn consistent, I stopped at 2008 because in 2009 his TD number jumps to 27...Which is a fairly considerable improvement....In 2010 he threw 31 tds.

Like it or not over time we're getting a player who is an amazingly consistent AND improving scorer of the football. (He'll likely match or better last years total this season)

2004-2008 Yards in Chronological order

1,043 - 3,762 - 3,244 -3,336 - 3,238

Again over in a 5 year span we're seeing very consistent yardage totals until 2009 when he again IMPROVED and broke the 4000 yards mark. (He broke the 4k mark in 2010 aswell and will very likely set a personal record for yardage this season.)

2004-2008 INTs in chronological order

9-17-18-20-*10

Keeping in mind that in his rookie year he only played 9 games even his INT numbers are very consistent year to year except for 2008 when the number IMPROVED drastically (See a theme here)

The mark of a poor argument is one that states others believe it so it must be true ala Hitler in Nazi Germany.

It doesn't matter how many talking heads want to call Eli inconsistent the numbers don't support it. the FACTS don't support it. He's been consistently improving as a player since he was drafted.

As far as the other thread you mention you'll have to remind me because I don't see anything wrong with our Defense other than Linebackers and I think our D coordinator has major issues he needs to work out with Jesus.

Edit: With the numbers I just presented I don't see how you can sit there with a straight face and say "Ill reserve judgement until next year...We've got 7 1/2 years of sample that reasonably predicts that next seasons numbers will better than this year's by and large

...You clearly would see that you have left the drastic improvements solely upon stats, leading many to believe that you see stats as the only basis of reasoning when it comes to QB improvement, OR consistency. Couple that with the fact that Cosell CLEARLY stated:


I have also isolated the play of the quarterback from circumstances and situations outside of his control, basing my comments solely on the attributes, traits and characteristics necessary to consistently play the position at a high level.

You should be able to see that while you may have disproved a flawed perception that Eli is inconsistent, and has not drastically improved, that you did not successfully shut the door on any reasoning that Eli has significantly improved in the "attributes, traits, and characteristics", such as pocket presence, and progression reading, because you "killed" the dead horse with solely the use of statistics.

agreed.

buffyblue
07-03-2012, 04:30 PM
I love Eli Manning. He is the greatest QB in the history of NY Giants. He is a good guy and along with hia father and brother he helps a lot of people. He is also a gentleman that lets his play do the talking and that it very refreshing.

It is a good article but there are sone things I disagree with. The catch by Davis Tyree was just as much the escape and throw by Eli Manning. So many always overlook the fact that that was 3rd and 5. We had another down if that play didn't come through. The "sure" interception by Assante Samuel was not the case. There is no way he even makes a play on that ball inbounds. He knew it and you could see that he knew it.

The thing about this article that made me laugh is that Eli Manning has finally arrived. Ha. Eli Manning arrived during the 2007 season befininning with his public response to Tiki Barber, his ex teammates derogatory remarks about him. Michael Strahan stated that he was a little surprised because Eli Manning wasn't playing. Eli Manning then did not have a great statistical regular season that year but came rhrough when needed and then shined in playoffs and SuperBowl. His leadership on the opening drive of SuperBowl XLII that kept Tom Brady on the sidelines for the first 9:59 of the game is legendary and helped set the tone for the game.

Eli Manning consistently gotten better since then and I think we still haven't seen how great he really is. I appreciate the article and it is nice that folks are starting to notice but they are wrong. Eli Manning arrived years ago. Lets watch as he continues to be the dominating factor in defining thia era of NY Giants football.

Neverend
07-03-2012, 04:32 PM
Would have to agree with whats already been said

I beleive Eli has always been a great QB as far as pocket presence goes. I never agreed with jerry reese calling eli skittish early in his career. Eli always did a great job feeling pressure in the pocket and/or anticipating it

He always consistently got the ball out before pressure or reacted accordingly to it. I think the biggest difference in 2011 was that Eli & receivers did a better job ad-libbing against pressure and adjusting their routes. In the past, against pressure, Eli would throw jump balls to Plax with tremendous success. But as you saw in recent years, he hasnt had much success throwing balls up for grabs against pressure. Some would associate this with eli having poor pocket awareness/feel but I just think it was Eli trying to do too much

So in a sense I think Eli has always been a great QB, he just got better and more refined (if this wasnt repeated enough already in this thread)

giantsfan420
07-03-2012, 05:07 PM
I love Eli Manning. He is the greatest QB in the history of NY Giants. He is a good guy and along with hia father and brother he helps a lot of people. He is also a gentleman that lets his play do the talking and that it very refreshing.

It is a good article but there are sone things I disagree with. The catch by Davis Tyree was just as much the escape and throw by Eli Manning. So many always overlook the fact that that was 3rd and 5. We had another down if that play didn't come through. The "sure" interception by Assante Samuel was not the case. There is no way he even makes a play on that ball inbounds. He knew it and you could see that he knew it.

The thing about this article that made me laugh is that Eli Manning has finally arrived. Ha. Eli Manning arrived during the 2007 season befininning with his public response to Tiki Barber, his ex teammates derogatory remarks about him. Michael Strahan stated that he was a little surprised because Eli Manning wasn't playing. Eli Manning then did not have a great statistical regular season that year but came rhrough when needed and then shined in playoffs and SuperBowl. His leadership on the opening drive of SuperBowl XLII that kept Tom Brady on the sidelines for the first 9:59 of the game is legendary and helped set the tone for the game.

Eli Manning consistently gotten better since then and I think we still haven't seen how great he really is. I appreciate the article and it is nice that folks are starting to notice but they are wrong. Eli Manning arrived years ago. Lets watch as he continues to be the dominating factor in defining thia era of NY Giants football.

good post. and especially good point about that longest drive to open the SB in SB history. that was HUGE, and it actually, looking back, could be the biggest reason we won that game and held their d to their lowest point total in the season. that drive was brilliant, and so important, words cant do it justice...

GreenZone
07-03-2012, 05:25 PM
How did he every discover this?

Cosell's a freakin' genius.

TheBookOfEli
07-03-2012, 06:36 PM
Great article.

Of course those NFL.com fans that continue to hate on Eli are teeing off at the bottom with those stupid comments.

I can't believe those idiotic haters continue to say Eli is not ELITE because his players make him better, or that his defense carried him.

I just want to facepalm those dummies.

ashleymarie
07-03-2012, 06:52 PM
LOL. Those fans think if they can put Eli down enough that will build up their own "heroes". Not gonna happen. Eli is here to stay.

rainierjef
07-03-2012, 07:03 PM
Other fans have problems accepting Eli as Elite because of his demeanor. hes does have that confused expression at times and when you match that to the likes of brees who does the pre game pump up rah rah speech, rodgers whos is ****y and a little arrogant and boisterous in his interviews and on the field then you have the football model married to a model, that changes his hair style every season brady its hard to create an identity amongst these icons.
sadly this is how fans pick their elite players by their mannerisms.
Romo get the media spotlight cause he likeable to the public *i am not included, dated jessica, had a big publicized wedding with video smfh.
Its all self marketing really and eli sucks at it, his failed attempts with the Oreo commercials and the football cops, even the SNL skits ( which were not his fault just bad writing ) all make it worst for the public outside of Giants fans to accept him and pretty much his peers. i mean 73 yards shy of 5k cut down on his interceptions last year, 29 TD's and a super bowl win over the almight Brady and the patsy-boys; and 31 was the best they could come up with.
asa giants fan you just have to accept Eli will never get his respect in the league cause hes not like those other guys and i'm fine with that just win baby!

Diamondring
07-03-2012, 07:56 PM
Samuel almost had no ints. The ball was too high and if he would have put his hands and not fingers on it, then he would have int it. Yet he had almost nothing.

EliTE
07-03-2012, 09:03 PM
i hate when people refer to samuel's dropped pick attempt as if it was some routine catch or something. also without mentioning the fact the receiver, tyree i believe ran the wrong route.

gumby742
07-03-2012, 11:38 PM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.
lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
(edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.


Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?

Harooni
07-03-2012, 11:50 PM
Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?

shhh they don't like to see that stuff ,because then they would have to admit Eli wasn't this QB all his career.

Drez
07-03-2012, 11:55 PM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.
lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
(edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.


Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?
Significant in 2 areas. Which may mean that while his growth in those areas was great, his overall improvement wasn't as drastic as you and other may make it seem, but was enough to firmly and unquestionably put him in the top tier of QBs.

buffyblue
07-04-2012, 12:58 AM
I love Eli Manning. He is the greatest QB in the history of NY Giants. He is a good guy and along with hia father and brother he helps a lot of people. He is also a gentleman that lets his play do the talking and that it very refreshing.

It is a good article but there are sone things I disagree with. The catch by Davis Tyree was just as much the escape and throw by Eli Manning. So many always overlook the fact that that was 3rd and 5. We had another down if that play didn't come through. The "sure" interception by Assante Samuel was not the case. There is no way he even makes a play on that ball inbounds. He knew it and you could see that he knew it.

The thing about this article that made me laugh is that Eli Manning has finally arrived. Ha. Eli Manning arrived during the 2007 season befininning with his public response to Tiki Barber, his ex teammates derogatory remarks about him. Michael Strahan stated that he was a little surprised because Eli Manning wasn't playing. Eli Manning then did not have a great statistical regular season that year but came rhrough when needed and then shined in playoffs and SuperBowl. His leadership on the opening drive of SuperBowl XLII that kept Tom Brady on the sidelines for the first 9:59 of the game is legendary and helped set the tone for the game.

Eli Manning consistently gotten better since then and I think we still haven't seen how great he really is. I appreciate the article and it is nice that folks are starting to notice but they are wrong. Eli Manning arrived years ago. Lets watch as he continues to be the dominating factor in defining thia era of NY Giants football.

good post. and especially good point about that longest drive to open the SB in SB history. that was HUGE, and it actually, looking back, could be the biggest reason we won that game and held their d to their lowest point total in the season. that drive was brilliant, and so important, words cant do it justice...

Exactly. We scored 3 on that drive and NE scored a TD on the next but not till the 2nd quarter and it was huge to hold them scoreless in 1st quarter.

BurnerNYG
07-04-2012, 02:22 AM
When it's all said and done Eli will be in the Hall and will most likely have 3 or more rings. Are you guys really gonna sit back and worry about what the critics got to say this season?

Diamondring
07-04-2012, 07:48 AM
When it's all said and done Eli will be in the Hall and will most likely have 3 or more rings. Are you guys really gonna sit back and worry about what the critics got to say this season?Hey, you may be right but we got to talk about something and what youhave saidmay not happen.

jakegibbs
07-04-2012, 10:15 AM
Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?

shhh they don't like to see that stuff ,because then they would have to admit Eli wasn't this QB all his career.


Lost in all this is the fact that Eli got to work with the WRs during the lockout by himself with no other coaches screwing it up. He's truely the coach on the field & he proved in last year. I think they should let him do the offseason WR coaching every summer. Could result in 3 or 4 more SB appearances. Just let him do his thing.

giantsfan420
07-04-2012, 11:59 AM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.
lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
(edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.


Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?
Significant in 2 areas. Which may mean that while his growth in those areas was great, his overall improvement wasn't as drastic as you and other may make it seem, but was enough to firmly and unquestionably put him in the top tier of QBs.


shhh. its funny watching them act like elis this brand new, completely diff qb. sadly, i had hoped gumby would learn something from cosell bc he addresses gumby types specifically for erroneously focusing on a number to define a qb lmfao

and btw, yes, as usual u r correct with that drez. while eli significantly may have improved his pocket presence, this past season was just a continual progression from the yr before...certain posters just cant accept the fact that they were dead wrong, especially for not allowing eli to develop and expecting him to be peyton on day 1

gumbys response to my post is a microcosm of how he will key in on a portion of information and it skews his reasoning. he saw the word "significant" and applied it to elis play overall, when cosell was applying that statement to two specific attributes of elis that improved significantly. did elis arm strength all of a sudden improve dramatically? or how about his deep passing? check downs? aside from the obvious, his play in the pocket, what other area improved "significantly? to the point where he's this new guy?
but hey, all i can do is lmfao courtesy of gumby, whcih i have to say has been happening a lot lately

gumby742
07-04-2012, 09:26 PM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.
lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
(edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.


Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?
Significant in 2 areas. Which may mean that while his growth in those areas was great, his overall improvement wasn't as drastic as you and other may make it seem, but was enough to firmly and unquestionably put him in the top tier of QBs.


shhh. its funny watching them act like elis this brand new, completely diff qb. sadly, i had hoped gumby would learn something from cosell bc he addresses gumby types specifically for erroneously focusing on a number to define a qb lmfao

and btw, yes, as usual u r correct with that drez. while eli significantly may have improved his pocket presence, this past season was just a continual progression from the yr before...certain posters just cant accept the fact that they were dead wrong, especially for not allowing eli to develop and expecting him to be peyton on day 1

gumbys response to my post is a microcosm of how he will key in on a portion of information and it skews his reasoning. he saw the word "significant" and applied it to elis play overall, when cosell was applying that statement to two specific attributes of elis that improved significantly. did elis arm strength all of a sudden improve dramatically? or how about his deep passing? check downs? aside from the obvious, his play in the pocket, what other area improved "significantly? to the point where he's this new guy?
but hey, all i can do is lmfao courtesy of gumby, whcih i have to say has been happening a lot lately

here's the problem 420. Your critical thinking and reading skills are sub par. My response to Drez should answer any relevant points you might have spit out.

gumby742
07-04-2012, 09:39 PM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.
lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
(edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.


Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?
Significant in 2 areas. Which may mean that while his growth in those areas was great, his overall improvement wasn't as drastic as you and other may make it seem, but was enough to firmly and unquestionably put him in the top tier of QBs.


I'd say that progression reading and pocket movement are HUGE pieces of QB play. You can't make great strides in that area but have minimal improvement in your play - especially when you already have the skills of a top 10 NFL QB. There was a big difference between Eli of 2010 and Eli of 2011.

From the article also:
As I’ve discussed numerous times, <u>pocket mobility is an essential trait to perform consistently at a high level</u>. Manning, once a little frenzied and out of control when he was forced to react in response to the pass rush, is now more poised and composed

Edit: And it also boggles my mind that so many pro Eli people are championing this article when it pretty much takes a lot of the credit away from Eli in his first SB as well.

Note that winning Super Bowl XLII has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. That game was the signature example of the disconnect between result and process. Can anyone truly give Manning credit for David Tyree’s catch? A few plays earlier, the sure-handed Asante Samuel dropped an easy interception. But of course, the result made Manning a champion and a “winner.”

That's essentially 2 controversial topics that Cosell has squashed. Either I should be impressed with Pro-Eli folk and their new found mental flexibility or I should assume that they just filter in and out what they want to read, like before. Hmm.

But absolutely. Great article.

giantsfan420
07-05-2012, 12:21 AM
i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.
lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
(edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.


Cosell said that Eli's growth was especially significant

In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manning’s game: progression reading and pocket movement

What part of the word Significant didn't you get?
Significant in 2 areas. Which may mean that while his growth in those areas was great, his overall improvement wasn't as drastic as you and other may make it seem, but was enough to firmly and unquestionably put him in the top tier of QBs.


shhh. its funny watching them act like elis this brand new, completely diff qb. sadly, i had hoped gumby would learn something from cosell bc he addresses gumby types specifically for erroneously focusing on a number to define a qb lmfao

and btw, yes, as usual u r correct with that drez. while eli significantly may have improved his pocket presence, this past season was just a continual progression from the yr before...certain posters just cant accept the fact that they were dead wrong, especially for not allowing eli to develop and expecting him to be peyton on day 1

gumbys response to my post is a microcosm of how he will key in on a portion of information and it skews his reasoning. he saw the word "significant" and applied it to elis play overall, when cosell was applying that statement to two specific attributes of elis that improved significantly. did elis arm strength all of a sudden improve dramatically? or how about his deep passing? check downs? aside from the obvious, his play in the pocket, what other area improved "significantly? to the point where he's this new guy?
but hey, all i can do is lmfao courtesy of gumby, whcih i have to say has been happening a lot lately

here's the problem 420. Your critical thinking and reading skills are sub par. My response to Drez should answer any relevant points you might have spit out.

lmao