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Providence
08-02-2012, 09:43 AM
Hello all. As usual I've been away from the boards since the end of the season. Now that I have returned I just wanted to make a couple of comments on some issues that have happened in the last 6 months. This is all just my two cents, so take it for what it's worth.

First of all I want to say thanks to the folks who put the new boards in place, they seem to work well. Moreover, big thanks to the admins/mods (especially mod C) who helped me get my account back up and running. I hit a few snags and these guys helped me out in no time. Excellent job.

Now, to our beloved Gmen:

First thing I want to say is that I loved our draft. Those questioning it need to take a look at Reese's track record. He is a staunch, "we take the best player available" type guy and that has paid off for us repeatedly. We didn't really need a DE a while back and we drafted Kiwi. We didn't really need a WR a few years ago and Reese drafted Nicks. We didn't really need a pass rusher two years ago and Reese drafted Pierre Paul. We didn't really need a RB this year and Reese drafted Wilson. I see a pattern.

Second, the departures of Manningham and Jacobs. Let me starts with Mario, because he's easier. Losing him is not that big of a deal. Manningham was a solid player but there's no way he performs as well with us if he didn't have Cruz and Nicks out there on the field. Belichick said it in the Superbowl ("this is still a Cruz and Nicks game, make him throw to Manningham") and I am sure other coaches were saying the same thing all year. It sucks to see him go, especially after his amazing and historic catch in the Super Bowl, but it's not a killer. Whoever steps in will be solid. As for Jacobs, that one stings a little more. I'll be honest, and I think I speak for many when I say this, Jacobs never reached his potential in my eyes (save for 2007). He especially underwhelmed in short yardage situations. He's been stereotyped as a battering ram of a RB, mainly because of highlight reels of him trucking dudes over. But check those highlights again, everyone he bowls over he does so after he passes the line of scrimmage. I have said it a million times, once Jacobs got through the line of scrimmage he was Earl Campbell, but behind the line of scrimmage he was Ron Dayne (ouch, I know). Those of us who watched him from day 1 know that on 3rd and 1 Bradshaw was a better bet than Jacobs. Nevertheless, I do think losing him hurts. I say this because he was a great counter part for Bradshaw. He would pound guys and Bradshaw would come in and pound them worse. Moreover, if he did tear off a 22 yard run it got the whole stadium going and the whole team going. One run by him changed the confidence of our entire team and THAT is what I will miss. Also, and I know Jacobs gets hated on (especially in his early years) for a bad attitude, but I think his attitude is awesome. He was player for the people. My fondest memory will be him watching him take the Lombardi trophy and running around the entire perimeter of the field at Giants', whoops, Met Life Stadium, during the Superbowl celebration. He ran it around so that the fans, the back bone of the whole franchise, could get their hands on it, even for just a second. Despite his flaws, attitude like that is something special.

Third, "Ballard-gate." Belichick called our bluff on Ballard and he won. It stings, but it's not crippling. The Eli/Gilbride Giants offense doesn't revolve around the TE (hence why Shockey was so upset). If Bennett can step in and be solid there's no reason why he can't fill the void left open (being a security blanket and the occasional mid-range threat) for Eli. If he can do 600 yards and 5 TD's then I think we'll be fine.

Fourth, Eli hit the nail on the head when he said recently that we are not a dynasty. Of course, if we win one more this year or next then I think we are. Oh and Vick, yeah, you need to win one before you can talk dynasty. Clown.

Fifth, losing T2 sucks. I was soooooo looking forward to seeing him in action again. I don't know the diagnosis, but if it's as bad as it can be then I am thinking his career with us, and anyone else for that matter, is looking cloudy. It sucks. Nevertheless, we did it without him last year and we can do it without him again. With Prince having a full year under his belt let's hope he can step up and be the guy we need (not having Ross isn't going to help though).

Sixth, Nick's injury. I don't like this at all. I am sure he'll be ready by week1 and I am confident that he will still have a great season. My concern is the pattern of injuries. The guy is a machine at rehabbing, but it won't be so easy when he is older, even just a little older. Nicks is one of my favorite Giants, I love everything about his game (except when he holds the ball like a phone) and I want nothing but the best for him. Nevertheless, injuries every year make me a little nervous.

And finally, our schedule BRUTAL! Playoff teams and division opponents make up the last 10 weeks of the year. That is insane. But we won the Super Bowl, so that's how it has to be. Bring it on. Historically we crap the bed after a Superbowl year, so I am a bit passimistic about this year. Nevertheless, I think we've still got the main components that we need on this squad so I think our chances of repeating are solid (although San Fran is definitely scary).

Aside from playing the Eagles and the Cowboys, I am most looking forward to the game against New Orleans. They have had our number over the last few years and I think this is the year we can take it to them. Also, I am hoping JPP and Tuck find a way to give RG3 a nice "welcome to the NFL" moment at some point this season.

That's it from me (if you even read it or care about it). Looking forward to another season of heart attacks and talking to you bozo's. Enjoy!

PS: For those who care, my wife and I welcomed the newest Giants fan into the world back in March. His grandparents and other relatives are going to try their damnedest to turn him into a pats fan but I will sure to keep him focused on big blue. Wish me luck.

GMENAGAIN
08-02-2012, 10:12 AM
Great post as usual Providence. Welcome back.

bigjeep
08-02-2012, 10:45 AM
Hello all. As usual I've been away from the boards since the end of the season. Now that I have returned I just wanted to make a couple of comments on some issues that have happened in the last 6 months. This is all just my two cents, so take it for what it's worth.

First of all I want to say thanks to the folks who put the new boards in place, they seem to work well. Moreover, big thanks to the admins/mods (especially mod C) who helped me get my account back up and running. I hit a few snags and these guys helped me out in no time. Excellent job.

Now, to our beloved Gmen:

First thing I want to say is that I loved our draft. Those questioning it need to take a look at Reese's track record. He is a staunch, "we take the best player available" type guy and that has paid off for us repeatedly. We didn't really need a DE a while back and we drafted Kiwi. We didn't really need a WR a few years ago and Reese drafted Nicks. We didn't really need a pass rusher two years ago and Reese drafted Pierre Paul. We didn't really need a RB this year and Reese drafted Wilson. I see a pattern.

Second, the departures of Manningham and Jacobs. Let me starts with Mario, because he's easier. Losing him is not that big of a deal. Manningham was a solid player but there's no way he performs as well with us if he didn't have Cruz and Nicks out there on the field. Belichick said it in the Superbowl ("this is still a Cruz and Nicks game, make him throw to Manningham") and I am sure other coaches were saying the same thing all year. It sucks to see him go, especially after his amazing and historic catch in the Super Bowl, but it's not a killer. Whoever steps in will be solid. As for Jacobs, that one stings a little more. I'll be honest, and I think I speak for many when I say this, Jacobs never reached his potential in my eyes (save for 2007). He especially underwhelmed in short yardage situations. He's been stereotyped as a battering ram of a RB, mainly because of highlight reels of him trucking dudes over. But check those highlights again, everyone he bowls over he does so after he passes the line of scrimmage. I have said it a million times, once Jacobs got through the line of scrimmage he was Earl Campbell, but behind the line of scrimmage he was Ron Dayne (ouch, I know). Those of us who watched him from day 1 know that on 3rd and 1 Bradshaw was a better bet than Jacobs. Nevertheless, I do think losing him hurts. I say this because he was a great counter part for Bradshaw. He would pound guys and Bradshaw would come in and pound them worse. Moreover, if he did tear off a 22 yard run it got the whole stadium going and the whole team going. One run by him changed the confidence of our entire team and THAT is what I will miss. Also, and I know Jacobs gets hated on (especially in his early years) for a bad attitude, but I think his attitude is awesome. He was player for the people. My fondest memory will be him watching him take the Lombardi trophy and running around the entire perimeter of the field at Giants', whoops, Met Life Stadium, during the Superbowl celebration. He ran it around so that the fans, the back bone of the whole franchise, could get their hands on it, even for just a second. Despite his flaws, attitude like that is something special.

Third, "Boss-gate." Belichick called our bluff on Boss and he won. It stings, but it's not crippling. The Eli/Gilbride Giants offense doesn't revolve around the TE (hence why Shockey was so upset). If Bennett can step in and be solid there's no reason why he can't fill the void left open (being a security blanket and the occasional mid-range threat) for Eli. If he can do 600 yards and 5 TD's then I think we'll be fine.

Fourth, Eli hit the nail on the head when he said recently that we are not a dynasty. Of course, if we win one more this year or next then I think we are. Oh and Vick, yeah, you need to win one before you can talk dynasty. Clown.

Fifth, losing T2 sucks. I was soooooo looking forward to seeing him in action again. I don't know the diagnosis, but if it's as bad as it can be then I am thinking his career with us, and anyone else for that matter, is looking cloudy. It sucks. Nevertheless, we did it without him last year and we can do it without him again. With Prince having a full year under his belt let's hope he can step up and be the guy we need (not having Ross isn't going to help though).

Sixth, Nick's injury. I don't like this at all. I am sure he'll be ready by week1 and I am confident that he will still have a great season. My concern is the pattern of injuries. The guy is a machine at rehabbing, but it won't be so easy when he is older, even just a little older. Nicks is one of my favorite Giants, I love everything about his game (except when he holds the ball like a phone) and I want nothing but the best for him. Nevertheless, injuries every year make me a little nervous.

And finally, our schedule BRUTAL! Playoff teams and division opponents make up the last 10 weeks of the year. That is insane. But we won the Super Bowl, so that's how it has to be. Bring it on. Historically we crap the bed after a Superbowl year, so I am a bit passimistic about this year. Nevertheless, I think we've still got the main components that we need on this squad so I think our chances of repeating are solid (although San Fran is definitely scary).

Aside from playing the Eagles and the Cowboys, I am most looking forward to the game against New Orleans. They have had our number over the last few years and I think this is the year we can take it to them. Also, I am hoping JPP and Tuck find a way to give RG3 a nice "welcome to the NFL" moment at some point this season.

That's it from me (if you even read it or care about it). Looking forward to another season of heart attacks and talking to you bozo's. Enjoy!

PS: For those who care, my wife and I welcomed the newest Giants fan into the world back in March. His grandparents and other relatives are going to try their damnedest to turn him into a pats fan but I will sure to keep him focused on big blue. Wish me luck.

"We didn't really need a RB this year and Reese drafted Wilson."?

Sorry, we were last in run production last year! It was a NEED pick. In fact, the last two years and the regular season last year were nothing to shout about. The two prior years were the worst I have wittnessed in many years of watching Giants football. So they were NEED picks. The Offense line scares me the most this year. We will be as good as they play this year!

bELIeve_in_Giants
08-02-2012, 11:09 AM
I think you mean "Ballard-gate" rather than "Boss-gate"

Providence
08-02-2012, 11:11 AM
"We didn't really need a RB this year and Reese drafted Wilson."?

Sorry, we were last in run production last year! It was a NEED pick. In fact, the last two years and the regular season last year were nothing to shout about. The two prior years were the worst I have wittnessed in many years of watching Giants football. So they were NEED picks. The Offense line scares me the most this year. We will be as good as they play this year!

I see your point, however I don't think our run production was poor because of Bradshaw, I think it was poor because of our lackluster run blocking. Thus my statement, we didn't need a running back. additionally, when looking at other problem areas, offensive line (as you noted) and linbacker, our need for a running back was minimal.

There's a lot of variables that contribute to being last in run protection. I think the running back himself is low on that list of variables truth be told.

Providence
08-02-2012, 11:13 AM
I think you mean "Ballard-gate" rather than "Boss-gate"

Holy crap, what a foolish mistake. Thanks for picking that up. Big, block headed white dudes that make clutch plays against the Patriots all start to look the same, ha ha ha. I edited my original post, thanks again for catching my blunder.

lamas
08-02-2012, 11:15 AM
We didn't really need a WR a few years ago and Reese drafted Nicks.

Nicks was a NEED pick too. Very much so.

Theismann'sLeg
08-02-2012, 11:28 AM
Great post, though I think Nicks was a need pick too. Also concerning the Martellus Bennett comments, I actually think Pascoe will be the one to lead the TE's in receiving this year but it will be a mixed bag. I don't think you'll see one guy with substantially better numbers than the other.

GameTime
08-02-2012, 11:53 AM
Nice post...
Ballard wouldn't have playe anyway and while I like him a bunch and ACL is na ACL and we have seen what happens the second time around.
Plus the Gmen have a handful of TEs to chooes from and I am sure they will beable to match the production that Ballard gave them
Jacobs big runs did pump up the team but what team doesant DOESNT get pumped up when their run game is hitting on all cylinders. Maybe it pumped the crowd up so much because it didnt happen often enough. AB....no way he can carry the whole or even the majority of the runs any more. The NEED the next starting RB to emerge and to emerge NOW. AB is great and I love the guy but he is damaged and his running style/physiology IS the cause of his feet/ankle problems. He will not get better....he will only wear out sooner in the season.
Nicks....take it slow and keep him healthy...(see AB)

Toadofsteel
08-02-2012, 12:01 PM
The thing I miss more about Jacobs is that he really was the heart of the team. He could get anyone fired up. Also he was always looking out for his team. He didn't let any player get pushed around if he could help it.

I just hope that the heart transplant in Wilson will be enough. The man has some fire of his own: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bO123KOEM

Providence
08-02-2012, 12:05 PM
Nicks was a NEED pick too. Very much so.

I guess saying that he wasn't a NEED pick is a bit of stretch, after the Placcident, we did need a WR. But going into that draft, despite how we had to fill Plax's shoes, my vote for how to spend our first round pick was not a WR. Nevertheless, I see your point and I think that's a fair perspective.

Providence
08-02-2012, 12:07 PM
Great post, though I think Nicks was a need pick too. Also concerning the Martellus Bennett comments, I actually think Pascoe will be the one to lead the TE's in receiving this year but it will be a mixed bag. I don't think you'll see one guy with substantially better numbers than the other.

I hear that. If Pascoe and Bennett combine for solid numbers I'll be happy.

Morehead State
08-02-2012, 12:07 PM
Could not disagree more with the OP about Manningham. To say that he only performs well because of Nicks and Cruz is in conflict with his history. Check out his performance in the last 4 games of 2010 when everyone else was hurt. He averaged over 100 yards/game and had a bunch of TD's and big plays.
Don't kid yourself, MM can play.

GameTime
08-02-2012, 12:24 PM
Could not disagree more with the OP about Manningham. To say that he only performs well because of Nicks and Cruz is in conflict with his history. Check out his performance in the last 4 games of 2010 when everyone else was hurt. He averaged over 100 yards/game and had a bunch of TD's and big plays.
Don't kid yourself, MM can play.
+1....no doubt

RoanokeFan
08-02-2012, 12:35 PM
If you need an anti-Pats intervention, we're ALL-IN! ;)

Providence
08-02-2012, 02:50 PM
Could not disagree more with the OP about Manningham. To say that he only performs well because of Nicks and Cruz is in conflict with his history. Check out his performance in the last 4 games of 2010 when everyone else was hurt. He averaged over 100 yards/game and had a bunch of TD's and big plays.
Don't kid yourself, MM can play.

He's got skills and I don't mean to take that away from him. However, keep in mind those 4 games were before Cruz was a threat.

Morehead State
08-02-2012, 03:01 PM
He's got skills and I don't mean to take that away from him. However, keep in mind those 4 games were before Cruz was a threat.
OK I'm confused. First you say that he only produces because we have Nicks and Cruz, then you say that he produced because Cruz was not yet a threat.
Can you explain please?

wuzpapn
08-02-2012, 03:11 PM
Great post. I'm also one who has had the utmost faith in Jerry Reese's scouting/recruiting and the staff he keeps in charge.

Providence
08-02-2012, 03:19 PM
OK I'm confused. First you say that he only produces because we have Nicks and Cruz, then you say that he produced because Cruz was not yet a threat.
Can you explain please?

Whoops, I confused myself on that one. Sorry. I misread your response and thought you said something you didn't. And then, on top of that, I responded in a confusing way. My bad.

Manningham's last 4 games in 2010 were good, as was his play last year. I don't mean to take that away from him. However, I just don't see his success being something that's impossible to be re-produced by one of the guys we already have on the squad. Again, perhaps I am being naive or just overly optimistic, but I don't see our pass attack hurting because of his departure.

wuzpapn
08-02-2012, 03:22 PM
I feel that Mario was also one of the easier replacements from our off-season. Like Prov has been saying, granted he was a great receiver for us and made many plays that contributed to our success, but I can remember way too many times from this season where Eli had the "wtf are you doing?" look at Mario because he would run the completely wrong route. Great player, but the smarts weren't fully there.

Morehead State
08-02-2012, 03:26 PM
Whoops, I confused myself on that one. Sorry. I misread your response and thought you said something you didn't. And then, on top of that, I responded in a confusing way. My bad.

Manningham's last 4 games in 2010 were good, as was his play last year. I don't mean to take that away from him. However, I just don't see his success being something that's impossible to be re-produced by one of the guys we already have on the squad. Again, perhaps I am being naive or just overly optimistic, but I don't see our pass attack hurting because of his departure.


Well he had huge TD catches in all 3 NFC playoff games and had the biggest catch of the SB. He will be missed. Having said that, I agree that JJ or maybe even Randle has a chance to step in and play well. But when Nicks gets hurt it was very nice to have a player like MM to step in. So I agree with your basic premise that we should be able to deal with his exit to SF.

Morehead State
08-02-2012, 03:31 PM
I feel that Mario was also one of the easier replacements from our off-season. Like Prov has been saying, granted he was a great receiver for us and made many plays that contributed to our success, but I can remember way too many times from this season where Eli had the "wtf are you doing?" look at Mario because he would run the completely wrong route. Great player, but the smarts weren't fully there.
I'm sorry but thats just another MB myth. The Giants have a ton of sight adjustments in their offense. What Manningham sees downfield and what Eli reads (having to read the entire field) may be different but it doesn't mean its wrong.
The big pick at SF during the regular season was blamed on MM on the Giants MB but it was clear that he made the right adjustment away from coverage and Eli threw into coverage.
The whole "Manningham is stupid and doesn't run the right routes" is silly stuff in my view.

miked1958
08-02-2012, 03:41 PM
Nice to have you back on Providence!!!... Excellent Points. I for one was alot more sad to see BJ go then MM. However i think with the stable of running backs we have we will be fine in the long run. Also think with all the guys competing for that 3rd WR we will also be great at that position as long as Cruz/Nicks can stay healthy that 3rd WR will get alot of throws his way. also i think are TE spot will have another STAR emerge for the 3rd time. After shockey BOSS stepped in and stepped up. Then he leaves in FA and Ballard made us forget him. Now with ballard gone i am confident someone else will step up BIG> weather it be Bennett, Hopkins, Robinson, Beckum remains to be seen. Pascoe will never be a star but he will aways be there as a solid player to backup at TE and fill in when needed at FB.

miked1958
08-02-2012, 03:43 PM
on the T2 issue. He may not be out the whole season now as first thought. However with 10 other guys back there i think we will be fine

Providence
08-02-2012, 03:44 PM
Well he had huge TD catches in all 3 NFC playoff games and had the biggest catch of the SB. He will be missed. Having said that, I agree that JJ or maybe even Randle has a chance to step in and play well. But when Nicks gets hurt it was very nice to have a player like MM to step in. So I agree with your basic premise that we should be able to deal with his exit to SF.

For sure, MM played awesome down the stretch. At the end of the day, I feel that the Gilbride/Eli offense works no matter who we plaug in. A lot of folks were nervous when Kevin Boss, Steve Smith, and Plax left and now all three of those guys are ghosts of the past. I hope MM falls into that category (although I do hope MM does well in San Fran, I will always be in this debt for that grab in the Super Bowl, just as I am in debt to Tyree).

JB456
08-02-2012, 04:10 PM
I was actually in the process of writing somthing very similar to wazpapn when I kicked out for some reason. This is what I was tring to post:

I will forever remember what Manningham has done for the Giants but you have to look at the whole picture. To me, Manningham is like a homerun hitter who strikes out alot in baseball. He is a threat to score anywhere on the field but it just didn't seem that he could fully digest the playbook. How many times have you seen Eli through his hands up in disgust after Manningham ran an errant route?

I think there is a strong possibility that either Randle or Jernigan step up this year and the Giants have a more efficient offense than 2011.

Your view that Manningham wasn't the problem doesn't make too much sense to me. How many miscommunications were there between Eli, Cruz and Nicks? I willing to bet their were more blown plays between Eli and Manningham than their were between Eli, Cruz and Nicks combined. Take into account that last year was Cruz's first full year, you should make you realize that Manningham's bad routes are certainly not a Giants Message Board myth.

Jahh
08-02-2012, 04:15 PM
Great post, though I think Nicks was a need pick too. Also concerning the Martellus Bennett comments, I actually think Pascoe will be the one to lead the TE's in receiving this year but it will be a mixed bag. I don't think you'll see one guy with substantially better numbers than the other.
No way Pascoe leads the time in TE receiving this year.

Morehead State
08-02-2012, 04:35 PM
I was actually in the process of writing somthing very similar to wazpapn when I kicked out for some reason. This is what I was tring to post:

I will forever remember what Manningham has done for the Giants but you have to look at the whole picture. To me, Manningham is like a homerun hitter who strikes out alot in baseball. He is a threat to score anywhere on the field but it just didn't seem that he could fully digest the playbook. How many times have you seen Eli through his hands up in disgust after Manningham ran an errant route?

I think there is a strong possibility that either Randle or Jernigan step up this year and the Giants have a more efficient offense than 2011.

Your view that Manningham wasn't the problem doesn't make too much sense to me. How many miscommunications were there between Eli, Cruz and Nicks? I willing to bet their were more blown plays between Eli and Manningham than their were between Eli, Cruz and Nicks combined. Take into account that last year was Cruz's first full year, you should make you realize that Manningham's bad routes are certainly not a Giants Message Board myth.
This theory that MM doesn't run the right routes (as I have already said) is pure nonsense. The Giants passing game is based on a lot of sight adjustments. And I can think of very few times where Eli (threw his hands in the air) over ANY player's mistake. thats simply not who Eli is. Another myth.
To answer your question about other WR's miscommunication, one of the most famous was Nicks vs. GB in 2010 where Eli threw into coverage and Nicks broke the other way (into a gap in the coverage) The immediate reaction of Aikman was that Nicks "ran the wrong route" where he has no idea how the Giants offense works and would have no idea what the play was. The reality is that Nicks made the right play and Eli read it wrong. It happens a lot with the Giants because of the sight adjustments that the receivers are required to make.

This "running the wrong route" thing drives me nuts.

JB456
08-02-2012, 05:07 PM
This theory that MM doesn't run the right routes (as I have already said) is pure nonsense. The Giants passing game is based on a lot of sight adjustments. And I can think of very few times where Eli (threw his hands in the air) over ANY player's mistake. thats simply not who Eli is. Another myth.
To answer your question about other WR's miscommunication, one of the most famous was Nicks vs. GB in 2010 where Eli threw into coverage and Nicks broke the other way (into a gap in the coverage) The immediate reaction of Aikman was that Nicks "ran the wrong route" where he has no idea how the Giants offense works and would have no idea what the play was. The reality is that Nicks made the right play and Eli read it wrong. It happens a lot with the Giants because of the sight adjustments that the receivers are required to make.

This "running the wrong route" thing drives me nuts.

If you don't want call it a bad route then call it bad chemistry. I think I can think of two plays in the Superbowl where Eli and Manningham weren't on the same page and that was six months ago. I think one of the messed up plays immediately followed that spectacular catch.

Also, you're right in regards to Eli not usually throwing his hands up. He is a class act. After the blown play in the Superbowl, Eli motioned that Manningham should have kept running but he stopped.

Now, please bare in mind that I believe Manningham was a pivotal part of the Giants Superbowl run but letís be honest. If you could only choose two of the three Giants receivers from last year (Nicks, Cruz, Manningham), who would you choose. Also, rate Nicks, Cruz, and Manninghams route running ability in in order from best to worst. I personally would say Nicks, then Cruz, then Manningham. Your thoughts?

BlueSanta
08-02-2012, 05:53 PM
Third, "Ballard-gate." Belichick called our bluff on Ballard and he won. It stings, but it's not crippling. The Eli/Gilbride Giants offense doesn't revolve around the TE (hence why Shockey was so upset). If Bennett can step in and be solid there's no reason why he can't fill the void left open (being a security blanket and the occasional mid-range threat) for Eli. If he can do 600 yards and 5 TD's then I think we'll be fine.



I singled this bit out because it is the only thing I am going to even remotely disagree with you on.

TE absolutely is a HUGE part of this offense. Shockey did not get upset because TE isnt a big part of the O, he got upset because he felt his career was being shortened and wasted on run blocking. People, even ppl on these boards, tend to look at our TE in receiving production an think that sums up the TE function in this offense. TC's offense is old school in that the TE is a blocker 1st and foremost. IN 2007/08 we ran outside more than any team in the NFL. It is no coincedence that he Saints coveted Shockey. They replaced us as the top outside rushing team. To run outside you absolutely have to have a good seal block and that is in large part the TEs responsibility. Not to overly knock on our guys, but our end line blocking from the TE position has not been very good over the last 2 seasons. That is partly because of injury and youth. But it doesnt change the fact that it has been mediocre.

The Giants clearly made the run game an offseason proirity. They did this by getting a fresh set of wheels(D Wilson) and getting a TE known for his blocking 1st and foremost.

The problem is I could see our receptions from the TE position going down this year. This isnt because they arent as good. It is just a numbers game. We have the NFL's best slot guy in Cruz and JJ is also doing well this camp. So we may see more 3 wr sets this year. But, people will look at TE numbers and evaluate the TE's worth on his receptions. The fact is, if our run game can return to pre 2009 levels, or even close, then it will be in large part because of improvements to our TE position. I hope posters here recognize that.

Morehead State
08-02-2012, 08:03 PM
If you don't want call it a bad route then call it bad chemistry. I think I can think of two plays in the Superbowl where Eli and Manningham weren't on the same page and that was six months ago. I think one of the messed up plays immediately followed that spectacular catch.

Also, you're right in regards to Eli not usually throwing his hands up. He is a class act. After the blown play in the Superbowl, Eli motioned that Manningham should have kept running but he stopped.

Now, please bare in mind that I believe Manningham was a pivotal part of the Giants Superbowl run but letís be honest. If you could only choose two of the three Giants receivers from last year (Nicks, Cruz, Manningham), who would you choose. Also, rate Nicks, Cruz, and Manninghams route running ability in in order from best to worst. I personally would say Nicks, then Cruz, then Manningham. Your thoughts?
Clearly MM was the most expendable. But I just don't like this false notion that he ran bad routes or was too stupid to learn the playbook. The kid played well for us and when everyone was hurt at the end of 2010 he came up big time. As a matter of fact he's the only guy to show up for the GB game.
The kid made plays. there were plenty of plays where Eli threw a short out an MM turned it into a huge play. At Dallas 2010 comes to mind.

byron
08-02-2012, 10:37 PM
Good post man..... good to have you back P !

JJC7301
08-02-2012, 11:23 PM
Agree with most of what you said, but we needed a RB this year and also a WR the year that we took Nicks. There's nothing wrong with taking "need" if you're taking the right player and that's what Reese has done, for the most part (jury is out on Wilson, but I liked the pick and am confident). But what I particularly appreciate about Reese is that, yes, he'll take the best player available especially when he's so high on their board or the ceiling is so high (i.e. Prince and JPP).

The schedule is brutal this year, but wound up being brutal last year and wound up making the Giants tougher and more prepared for the playoffs. Hopefully, they'll rise to the occasion again.

Drez
08-02-2012, 11:37 PM
I guess saying that he wasn't a NEED pick is a bit of stretch, after the Placcident, we did need a WR. But going into that draft, despite how we had to fill Plax's shoes, my vote for how to spend our first round pick was not a WR. Nevertheless, I see your point and I think that's a fair perspective.
It was definitely a need pick. Not only did we not have Plax, we didn't have Toomer either.

Drez
08-02-2012, 11:39 PM
Could not disagree more with the OP about Manningham. To say that he only performs well because of Nicks and Cruz is in conflict with his history. Check out his performance in the last 4 games of 2010 when everyone else was hurt. He averaged over 100 yards/game and had a bunch of TD's and big plays.
Don't kid yourself, MM can play.
MM's biggest problem here was that the scheme was a little too complicated for him. I think if Smith can play well in SF he'll have a lot of success there (however, that's a big if).

Drez
08-02-2012, 11:41 PM
I singled this bit out because it is the only thing I am going to even remotely disagree with you on.

TE absolutely is a HUGE part of this offense. Shockey did not get upset because TE isnt a big part of the O, he got upset because he felt his career was being shortened and wasted on run blocking. People, even ppl on these boards, tend to look at our TE in receiving production an think that sums up the TE function in this offense. TC's offense is old school in that the TE is a blocker 1st and foremost. IN 2007/08 we ran outside more than any team in the NFL. It is no coincedence that he Saints coveted Shockey. They replaced us as the top outside rushing team. To run outside you absolutely have to have a good seal block and that is in large part the TEs responsibility. Not to overly knock on our guys, but our end line blocking from the TE position has not been very good over the last 2 seasons. That is partly because of injury and youth. But it doesnt change the fact that it has been mediocre.

The Giants clearly made the run game an offseason proirity. They did this by getting a fresh set of wheels(D Wilson) and getting a TE known for his blocking 1st and foremost.

The problem is I could see our receptions from the TE position going down this year. This isnt because they arent as good. It is just a numbers game. We have the NFL's best slot guy in Cruz and JJ is also doing well this camp. So we may see more 3 wr sets this year. But, people will look at TE numbers and evaluate the TE's worth on his receptions. The fact is, if our run game can return to pre 2009 levels, or even close, then it will be in large part because of improvements to our TE position. I hope posters here recognize that.
I think when people say that TE isn't important in our offense they are saying that we depend on our TEs more for run blocking than we do in a production role in the offense.

JB456
08-03-2012, 12:11 AM
Clearly MM was the most expendable. But I just don't like this false notion that he ran bad routes or was too stupid to learn the playbook. The kid played well for us and when everyone was hurt at the end of 2010 he came up big time. As a matter of fact he's the only guy to show up for the GB game.
The kid made plays. there were plenty of plays where Eli threw a short out an MM turned it into a huge play. At Dallas 2010 comes to mind.

If I didn't portray how much I like Mario Manningham, I apologize. Manningham was a HUGE part of the Giants Superbowl run.

Moving past my personal feelings, there has to be something wrong with Manningham's game since he was practically signed by the 49rs for the football
equivalent of food-stamps. So, I am obviously not a football analyst but let me try to lay this out.

What special qualities does Manningham posses that would attract other teams?
1) Big play potential. I think this is pretty obvious since he stretches the field.
2) Speed. This guy can tear it up and ran a sub 4.4 40 on pro day.
3) Hands. Now, prior to this pasty year I would say his hands were good to very good but after this year, his stock dropped. I can personally think of 3 drops in the end zone where the damn ball hit his hands. In addition, Manningham was ranked 75th in the league and he dropped 13.33% of his passes that were catchable (Not good, this definitely hurt him in the open Market).
4) Route running ability or chemistry with QB. Now, even though I have found a bunch of websites on the internet that say he has mental errors and runs bad routes, I won't even bring up their names since I don't think they are credible enough to state here.
5) Likability. I don't think I have ever heard that he caused trouble in the locker room so this wasn't an issue.

With 1,2, and 5 being very good, that just leaves us with 3 and 4 being his problem areas. 3 definitely dropped his stock in the open market but I don't think it was exclusively the issue since he is only 26 and had a very memorable catch in the Superbowl.

Providence
08-03-2012, 07:28 PM
I singled this bit out because it is the only thing I am going to even remotely disagree with you on.

TE absolutely is a HUGE part of this offense. Shockey did not get upset because TE isnt a big part of the O, he got upset because he felt his career was being shortened and wasted on run blocking. People, even ppl on these boards, tend to look at our TE in receiving production an think that sums up the TE function in this offense. TC's offense is old school in that the TE is a blocker 1st and foremost. IN 2007/08 we ran outside more than any team in the NFL. It is no coincedence that he Saints coveted Shockey. They replaced us as the top outside rushing team. To run outside you absolutely have to have a good seal block and that is in large part the TEs responsibility. Not to overly knock on our guys, but our end line blocking from the TE position has not been very good over the last 2 seasons. That is partly because of injury and youth. But it doesnt change the fact that it has been mediocre.

The Giants clearly made the run game an offseason proirity. They did this by getting a fresh set of wheels(D Wilson) and getting a TE known for his blocking 1st and foremost.

The problem is I could see our receptions from the TE position going down this year. This isnt because they arent as good. It is just a numbers game. We have the NFL's best slot guy in Cruz and JJ is also doing well this camp. So we may see more 3 wr sets this year. But, people will look at TE numbers and evaluate the TE's worth on his receptions. The fact is, if our run game can return to pre 2009 levels, or even close, then it will be in large part because of improvements to our TE position. I hope posters here recognize that.

I should have been more clear. The pass catching TE is not a big part of the Giants offense. I agree that the run blocking TE is a significant part of the offense.

Neverend
08-03-2012, 07:36 PM
We didn't really need a WR a few years ago and Reese drafted Nicks.

I would most definitely say WR was a need that year.


We didn't really need a pass rusher two years ago and Reese drafted Pierre Paul.

There was a good argument for taking a defensive end. The need of safety was fulfilled with the signing of Rolle. Outside of LB, depth on the defensive line was definitely a need


We didn't really need a RB this year and Reese drafted Wilson. I see a pattern.

Depth that consists of andre brown, scott, and ware is pretty underwhelming. Especially if bradshaw going down forces these guys to start. Getting a dynamic RB, you can argue, was a need. At least you can say it wasn't a luxury pick, thats for sure


Second, the departures of Manningham and Jacobs. Let me starts with Mario, because he's easier. Losing him is not that big of a deal. Manningham was a solid player but there's no way he performs as well with us if he didn't have Cruz and Nicks out there on the field. Belichick said it in the Superbowl ("this is still a Cruz and Nicks game, make him throw to Manningham") and I am sure other coaches were saying the same thing all year. It sucks to see him go, especially after his amazing and historic catch in the Super Bowl, but it's not a killer. Whoever steps in will be solid.

Of course with drafting a guy like Randle, its easy to feel good about losing Mario. Losing him isnt a killer, but the way in which he was lost is frustrating. Guess the Giants or manningham just wanted to move on because the contract was absolutely serviceable to match. Moot point now as the giants have young guys like randle and jernigan. However, I'd give Manningham a lot more credit. I don't think his success is primarily based upon nicks and cruz. Rewind to late 2010, when Manningham was the Giants number 1 receiver when nicks or smith was out. He played well and earned the respect of defenses. Hell, his superbowl catch was against double coverage. I know what Bill B. said, but historically Manningham has shown to be an extremely talented receiver -- not a product of said scheme.


As for Jacobs, that one stings a little more. I'll be honest, and I think I speak for many when I say this, Jacobs never reached his potential in my eyes (save for 2007). He especially underwhelmed in short yardage situations. He's been stereotyped as a battering ram of a RB, mainly because of highlight reels of him trucking dudes over. But check those highlights again, everyone he bowls over he does so after he passes the line of scrimmage. I have said it a million times, once Jacobs got through the line of scrimmage he was Earl Campbell, but behind the line of scrimmage he was Ron Dayne (ouch, I know). Those of us who watched him from day 1 know that on 3rd and 1 Bradshaw was a better bet than Jacobs. Nevertheless, I do think losing him hurts. I say this because he was a great counter part for Bradshaw. He would pound guys and Bradshaw would come in and pound them worse. Moreover, if he did tear off a 22 yard run it got the whole stadium going and the whole team going. One run by him changed the confidence of our entire team and THAT is what I will miss. Also, and I know Jacobs gets hated on (especially in his early years) for a bad attitude, but I think his attitude is awesome. He was player for the people. My fondest memory will be him watching him take the Lombardi trophy and running around the entire perimeter of the field at Giants', whoops, Met Life Stadium, during the Superbowl celebration. He ran it around so that the fans, the back bone of the whole franchise, could get their hands on it, even for just a second. Despite his flaws, attitude like that is something special.

I agree about Jacobs. I'll miss his personality and character. But in the end, the giants have a clear definitive upgrade in David Wilson. He has massive upside compared to BJ


Third, "Ballard-gate." Belichick called our bluff on Ballard and he won. It stings, but it's not crippling. The Eli/Gilbride Giants offense doesn't revolve around the TE (hence why Shockey was so upset). If Bennett can step in and be solid there's no reason why he can't fill the void left open (being a security blanket and the occasional mid-range threat) for Eli. If he can do 600 yards and 5 TD's then I think we'll be fine.

Agreed. It stinks losing ballard for nothing, but, thats what Ballard was - nothing. He wasn't going to play a meaningful NFL game until september 2013. He had microfracture and acl surgery. He's had all sorts of injury problems all over his body, and a history of pcl injuries. He was a medicore athlete. That injury completely ruined his upside. Ballard is most likely not to play well in 2013, if it all. Not a crippling loss at all, I agree.


Fourth, Eli hit the nail on the head when he said recently that we are not a dynasty. Of course, if we win one more this year or next then I think we are. Oh and Vick, yeah, you need to win one before you can talk dynasty. Clown.

Agreed.


Fifth, losing T2 sucks. I was soooooo looking forward to seeing him in action again. I don't know the diagnosis, but if it's as bad as it can be then I am thinking his career with us, and anyone else for that matter, is looking cloudy. It sucks. Nevertheless, we did it without him last year and we can do it without him again. With Prince having a full year under his belt let's hope he can step up and be the guy we need (not having Ross isn't going to help though).

Would disagree about Ross. Made a couple of impressive plays in the playoffs but was terribly inconsistent throughout his career. I think losing him is an upgrade, even with Prince being unproven. Prince was a stud at nebraska, he should develop to be better than ross


Sixth, Nick's injury. I don't like this at all. I am sure he'll be ready by week1 and I am confident that he will still have a great season. My concern is the pattern of injuries. The guy is a machine at rehabbing, but it won't be so easy when he is older, even just a little older. Nicks is one of my favorite Giants, I love everything about his game (except when he holds the ball like a phone) and I want nothing but the best for him. Nevertheless, injuries every year make me a little nervous.

Same here


And finally, our schedule BRUTAL! Playoff teams and division opponents make up the last 10 weeks of the year. That is insane. But we won the Super Bowl, so that's how it has to be. Bring it on. Historically we crap the bed after a Superbowl year, so I am a bit passimistic about this year. Nevertheless, I think we've still got the main components that we need on this squad so I think our chances of repeating are solid (although San Fran is definitely scary).

Aside from playing the Eagles and the Cowboys, I am most looking forward to the game against New Orleans. They have had our number over the last few years and I think this is the year we can take it to them. Also, I am hoping JPP and Tuck find a way to give RG3 a nice "welcome to the NFL" moment at some point this season.

If its any consolation I think last years schedule was harder. Plus playing a tough schedule makes you battled tested as Reese loves to say.


That's it from me (if you even read it or care about it). Looking forward to another season of heart attacks and talking to you bozo's. Enjoy!

Enjoyed reading! Thanks for posting your insightful thoughts. Welcome aboard, should be a fun season

jomo
08-03-2012, 07:58 PM
Running back was a huge area of need. I agree with you on JPP and others but the argument falls apart with Wilson.

888888
08-04-2012, 01:14 AM
Congratulations on your newest GIANT FAN

juice33s
08-04-2012, 01:21 AM
I stopped reading after you said WR wasn't a need when we drafted Nicks and RB wasn't a need when we drafted Wilson....

BurnerNYG
08-04-2012, 02:08 AM
Great post and welcome back. The mods and administrators helped me as well and I forgot to thank em... how rude of me.

jomo
08-04-2012, 09:12 AM
First, congratulations on the new bundle of joy in your life. Giving him strong guidance means Big Blue all the way.
Second, I never read posts that long but read yours from start to finish. You hit on pretty much all the important off season topic. If I had to add one more I'd include bedding down Osi before training camp was a win win for us.
Welcome back from hibernation!

Captain Chaos
08-04-2012, 09:56 AM
I agree that the losses of Jacobs, Manningham and Ballard are not devastating. I think we have adequate backups for Manningham & Ballard, Just don't think we have that bruising back that make's the secondary cringe when they have to take him down. I don't know who will pick up the roll as the power back but that is what we will need...

Joe Morrison
08-04-2012, 10:44 AM
I agree that the losses of Jacobs, Manningham and Ballard are not devastating. I think we have adequate backups for Manningham & Ballard, Just don't think we have that bruising back that make's the secondary cringe when they have to take him down. I don't know who will pick up the roll as the power back but that is what we will need...
Agreed, Jacobs brought the demon to the game.