PDA

View Full Version : Simms vs Manning



primetime
08-10-2012, 03:37 PM
I just wanted to get some opinions on two great Giants qb's. I know this topic is difficult to make comparisonsí, but letís have some fun anyways.
I think it's safe to say Phil Simms is the bar that is set as to who the best qb this franchise has ever seen. I know we have had some great qb's play for us. Ex. YA Tittle, Charlie Conerly, Fran Tarkenton, I would even put Kerry Collins in the conversation. He may not have been great, but he gave us some real good years.

It's up to debate where Eli Manning is right now, 2 super bowl rings and still at the prime of his career.
Here are the first 8 seasons of Simms and Manningís career.

Simms: 19,815 yds. 121 td's.
Manning: 27,579 yds. 185 td's

*We have to put into the equation Simms being hurt a lot in the beginning of his career*
*And the league has changed since Simms was playing*

So I ask my fellow fans, where do you rank Eli with Simms?

I know Eli's career is not done by a long shot, but would like to hear some opinions on these two all-time greats.

EliDaMANning
08-10-2012, 03:40 PM
There really is nothing to talk about because it's not even close.

bigjeep
08-10-2012, 03:43 PM
1- Eli Manning

2- Y.A. Tittle

3- Phil Simms

4- Fran Tarkenton

5- Hostletter

BigBlue1971
08-10-2012, 03:44 PM
things are a little different in the nfl now than when Simms was playing. Simms always depended on the run as the primary mode of offense.

now i believe its pass 1st even with the Giants.

based on Eli winning two superbowls and the fact he appears physically tougher than Simms the edge has to go to him!

yoeddy
08-10-2012, 03:44 PM
Hard to say because Simms faced tougher defenses and had lesser weapons to throw to. Would have been really interesting to see him in a different system...

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 03:44 PM
I just wanted to get some opinions on two great Giants qb's. I know this topic is difficult to make comparisons’, but let’s have some fun anyways.
I think it's safe to say Phil Simms is the bar that is set as to who the best qb this franchise has ever seen. I know we have had some great qb's play for us. Ex. YA Tittle, Charlie Conerly, Fran Tarkenton, I would even put Kerry Collins in the conversation. He may not have been great, but he gave us some real good years.

It's up to debate where Eli Manning is right now, 2 super bowl rings and still at the prime of his career.
Here are the first 8 seasons of Simms and Manning’s career.

Simms: 19,815 yds. 121 td's.
Manning: 27,579 yds. 185 td's

*We have to put into the equation Simms being hurt a lot in the beginning of his career*
*And the league has changed since Simms was playing*

So I ask my fellow fans, where do you rank Eli with Simms?

I know Eli's career is not done by a long shot, but would like to hear some opinions on these two all-time greats.

This ought to be good.

primetime
08-10-2012, 03:45 PM
1- Eli Manning

2- Y.A. Tittle

3- Phil Simms

4- Fran Tarkington

5- ?

Dave Brown? jk. Sorry don't know how to make it red

yoeddy
08-10-2012, 03:46 PM
based on Eli winning two superbowls and the fact he appears physically tougher than Simms the edge has to go to him!

I dunno about the physically tougher thing...Simms got hit a lot more than Eli in an era where QBs were not protected nearly as much as they are now...

GMENAGAIN
08-10-2012, 03:56 PM
Here we go . . . . .

scoopscj
08-10-2012, 03:57 PM
I never saw YA play so for me it's Simms vs Manning.

I saw Simms play and he was really really good. He played in a very different offense. Run first and had no receivers worth mentioning. He has 3 excellent tight ends, Bavaro, Mowatt, and Cross, although Cross was more of a blocking TE. Simms didn't have to do much in terms of running the offense and wasn't in charge of the kind of things Eli is in charge of. Simms threw the most beautiful seam pass. If you don't know what that is, I can explain. Two receivers run similar patterns down field in a vertical pattern. One receiver goes deep, the other goes short. Whichever the safety goes to, you hit the other one. The pass needs to be very accurate and have a tight spiral. Simms was excellent at that pass. I can say that was the key to his success. Simms wasn't the type of QB to make dramatic come back wins because he had a defense that was world class. Simms played in an era where you could clutch and grab the WR and slow them down, and there was no problem hitting a receiver over the middle. Just ask Ronnie Lott. It was tougher to complete passes in that era. Also, Simms played against some of the best defenses on a yearly basis. Redskins, 49ers, and Bears come to mind. Buddy Ryan's 46 defense with the Eagles and Dallas wasn't to shabby either.

Eli does more with the offense and has more responsibility. He has much greater set pieces at WR and RB but an OL that isn't as good. Eli is more of a student of the game, more cerebral and analytical. He is more athletic and more clutch. He is the Derek Jeter of Quarterbacks.

Both are top notch QBs of their time. If I had to choose I'd choose Eli. Eli would not have flourished as well as today in Simms in my opinion. He would have been successful but Simms did so much more with so much less.

Who is to say who is better, both were Giant greats and legends. I'm happy they were and still are a part of this great organization. Both helped us to get and win 4 Super Bowls. Many forget that Simms took us to 10-0 that year before going down in game 13 regular season vs the Bills.

I'll never disrespect either. Both are Giant greats. That's my 2 cents.


Scoops

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 04:01 PM
There really is nothing to talk about because it's not even close.

Agreed. Eli still has a way to go, but of course he still has his best years in front of him.

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 04:03 PM
I never saw YA play so for me it's Simms vs Manning.

I saw Simms play and he was really really good. He played in a very different offense. Run first and had no receivers worth mentioning. He has 3 excellent tight ends, Bavaro, Mowatt, and Cross, although Cross was more of a blocking TE. Simms didn't have to do much in terms of running the offense and wasn't in charge of the kind of things Eli is in charge of. Simms threw the most beautiful seam pass. If you don't know what that is, I can explain. Two receivers run similar patterns down field in a vertical pattern. One receiver goes deep, the other goes short. Whichever the safety goes to, you hit the other one. The pass needs to be very accurate and have a tight spiral. Simms was excellent at that pass. I can say that was the key to his success. Simms wasn't the type of QB to make dramatic come back wins because he had a defense that was world class. Simms played in an era where you could clutch and grab the WR and slow them down, and there was no problem hitting a receiver over the middle. Just ask Ronnie Lott. It was tougher to complete passes in that era. Also, Simms played against some of the best defenses on a yearly basis. Redskins, 49ers, and Bears come to mind. Buddy Ryan's 46 defense with the Eagles and Dallas wasn't to shabby either.

Eli does more with the offense and has more responsibility. He has much greater set pieces at WR and RB but an OL that isn't as good. Eli is more of a student of the game, more cerebral and analytical. He is more athletic and more clutch. He is the Derek Jeter of Quarterbacks.

Both are top notch QBs of their time. If I had to choose I'd choose Eli. Eli would not have flourished as well as today in Simms in my opinion. He would have been successful but Simms did so much more with so much less.

Who is to say who is better, both were Giant greats and legends. I'm happy they were and still are a part of this great organization. Both helped us to get and win 4 Super Bowls. Many forget that Simms took us to 10-0 that year before going down in game 13 regular season vs the Bills.

I'll never disrespect either. Both are Giant greats. That's my 2 cents.


Scoops

Well said Scoops.

scoopscj
08-10-2012, 04:09 PM
Thanks Roosevelt, I've always been a huge Simms fan and supporter. I'll be watching this tread and will go Postal on anybody that gives talks badly about him. It's a bittersweet day when Eli passed up Simms as the best Giant QB of my lifetime.

Hakeeeem88
08-10-2012, 04:12 PM
Simms was good but it's Eli by a mile

nhpgiantsfan
08-10-2012, 04:16 PM
1- Eli Manning

2- Y.A. Tittle

3- Phil Simms

4- Fran Tarkenton

5- Hostletter

Kerry Collins was better than Hoss. Hoss was dropped into the perfect situation when he won the SB. Let's be honest, he really wasnt a good NFL QB.

giantsfan420
08-10-2012, 04:16 PM
Simms was awesome and Eli had to reach the level he's at now to top him, so that says a lot of both QBs. Both in their primes, I take Eli. Simms missed a lot of time to injury, and luckily with Eli that isn't an issue. Both are great QBs, and I dont think its disrespctful to Simms to put him behind Eli.

But I will also say this, Eli can still get even better and do even more special things, so it remains to be seen where eli ranks among the games all times greats when all is said and done.

manning to shockey
08-10-2012, 04:23 PM
I love Simms but Eli wins this debate.

repeatchamps
08-10-2012, 04:26 PM
I never saw YA play so for me it's Simms vs Manning.

I saw Simms play and he was really really good. He played in a very different offense. Run first and had no receivers worth mentioning. He has 3 excellent tight ends, Bavaro, Mowatt, and Cross, although Cross was more of a blocking TE. Simms didn't have to do much in terms of running the offense and wasn't in charge of the kind of things Eli is in charge of. Simms threw the most beautiful seam pass. If you don't know what that is, I can explain. Two receivers run similar patterns down field in a vertical pattern. One receiver goes deep, the other goes short. Whichever the safety goes to, you hit the other one. The pass needs to be very accurate and have a tight spiral. Simms was excellent at that pass. I can say that was the key to his success. Simms wasn't the type of QB to make dramatic come back wins because he had a defense that was world class. Simms played in an era where you could clutch and grab the WR and slow them down, and there was no problem hitting a receiver over the middle. Just ask Ronnie Lott. It was tougher to complete passes in that era. Also, Simms played against some of the best defenses on a yearly basis. Redskins, 49ers, and Bears come to mind. Buddy Ryan's 46 defense with the Eagles and Dallas wasn't to shabby either.

Eli does more with the offense and has more responsibility. He has much greater set pieces at WR and RB but an OL that isn't as good. Eli is more of a student of the game, more cerebral and analytical. He is more athletic and more clutch. He is the Derek Jeter of Quarterbacks.

Both are top notch QBs of their time. If I had to choose I'd choose Eli. Eli would not have flourished as well as today in Simms in my opinion. He would have been successful but Simms did so much more with so much less.

Who is to say who is better, both were Giant greats and legends. I'm happy they were and still are a part of this great organization. Both helped us to get and win 4 Super Bowls. Many forget that Simms took us to 10-0 that year before going down in game 13 regular season vs the Bills.

I'll never disrespect either. Both are Giant greats. That's my 2 cents.


Scoops

Great post. This is exactly my view of this comparison. I'd also mention that Simms' O-lines were a superior run blocking O-line as opposed to their pass blocking. Eli's O-lines has had it's moments as a run blocking O-line but other than Diehl, the pass blocking has been better than what Simms got for the majority of his career. There is no question though that Simms' O-lines blows Eli's O-lines away when it comes to run-blocking. It is so tough to compare eras. Just watch the Simms era games from the 10 greatest games DVD and compare it to the speed of today's game. It's a world of difference. Simms' era featured much more physicality and a lot less speed in many areas. Things happen in a blur in today's game when compared to Simms' era. Both are legends and other than Bavaro, these guys are 1 and 2 on my list of favorite Giants offensive players that I've seen play. Not sure who is 1 and who is 2 just yet but if/when Eli wins another ring, I think he may have to get the nod in my book.

ashleymarie
08-10-2012, 04:37 PM
I love Simms but Eli wins this debate.

Hands down. He's our hero of the moment. And years to come I think.

fansince69
08-10-2012, 04:44 PM
I'll agree with everything Scoops said....I just want to add that if you never saw Simms play and you are just going by stats...stay out of the discussion PERIOD....this is not something that you can just say ELI has more yards and better stats won't work...different game....so if you arent at least 35 I really do not care about your opinion...cause if you didn't see him play you can not really understand how good Simms was

bigjeep
08-10-2012, 04:44 PM
Kerry Collins was better than Hoss. Hoss was dropped into the perfect situation when he won the SB. Let's be honest, he really wasnt a good NFL QB.

Maybe, but you can't take that SB win away from him. And he beat Simms out the next year!

DragonSoul
08-10-2012, 05:01 PM
I just wanted to get some opinions on two great Giants qb's. I know this topic is difficult to make comparisonsí, but letís have some fun anyways.
I think it's safe to say Phil Simms is the bar that is set as to who the best qb this franchise has ever seen. I know we have had some great qb's play for us. Ex. YA Tittle, Charlie Conerly, Fran Tarkenton, I would even put Kerry Collins in the conversation. He may not have been great, but he gave us some real good years.

It's up to debate where Eli Manning is right now, 2 super bowl rings and still at the prime of his career.
Here are the first 8 seasons of Simms and Manningís career.

Simms: 19,815 yds. 121 td's.
Manning: 27,579 yds. 185 td's

*We have to put into the equation Simms being hurt a lot in the beginning of his career*
*And the league has changed since Simms was playing*

So I ask my fellow fans, where do you rank Eli with Simms?

I know Eli's career is not done by a long shot, but would like to hear some opinions on these two all-time greats.Eli first Simms number 2. Even with the few things you mentioned. And if Eli stays healthy there wont be a comparison by the end.

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 05:02 PM
Thanks Roosevelt, I've always been a huge Simms fan and supporter. I'll be watching this tread and will go Postal on anybody that gives talks badly about him. It's a bittersweet day when Eli passed up Simms as the best Giant QB of my lifetime.

Like you I'm as a big a Simms fan as they come, but don't feel any bitterness towards Eli. While the circumstances of the playing careers are so different, they do have the similarity of trying to win the fans over.

Guys like you and I will always remember with great fondness what Simms did for our organization during those dark years. The fact that he is one of eleven Giants to have his jersey retired says everything anyone needs to know about Phil.

ebick
08-10-2012, 05:04 PM
And he beat Simms out the next year!

.....according to Ray Handley, which makes it a very questionable call at best......one I never agreed with.

One thing about the original post....I haven't looked at the stats in detail, but is that Phil's first 8 playing years? He was oft-injured at the beginning of his career.

Regardless, when all is said and done, the bar for the greatest Giants QB will be set at the marks left by #10.

scoopscj
08-10-2012, 05:04 PM
I was so mad that year after Hoss won the SB. Parcells quiet but he waited just long enough for Bellechik to go to Cleveland. Then we got stuck with Ray Handly who as many of you know, took Olympic Gold in the Giant's worst head coach category.


Hoss had a successful end of his career in Oakland. He was very good but we'll never know how good because he rode the bench all those years behind Simms. It's a lot like the Jim Kelly / Frank Reich situation where Reich was very good and could have started on many teams but rarely saw the field because of Kelly.

Loved Hoss's love of the game, desire to play, and athletic ability. He often gets forgotten. Heck, he used to play scout team in practice and even played WR and special teams at times. How many back up QBs in today's era ever blocked a punt? How many back up QB's today play special teams? Pretty amazing athlete.


Scoops

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 05:07 PM
Maybe, but you can't take that SB win away from him. And he beat Simms out the next year!

That is just an asinine comment as history has proven.

In 1983 Bill Parcells picked Scott Brunner over Simms as his starter and we went 3-12-1. Maybe you should remind everyone about that as well. And be sure to use exclamation points when you do.

scoopscj
08-10-2012, 05:09 PM
Roosevelt, when I saw bittersweet, it's not bitterness. It's like the day you realize you are stronger than your dad. You're happy but you also realize that he's mortal. It's bittersweet for me because Simms was always my favorite, sort of like an icon in my eyes. I grew up watching him and he was my first Jersey #11. It's hard for me to explain as it is about emotion. I guess I'm just a Giant's football softie.

fansince69
08-10-2012, 05:18 PM
Roosevelt, when I saw bittersweet, it's not bitterness. It's like the day you realize you are stronger than your dad. You're happy but you also realize that he's mortal. It's bittersweet for me because Simms was always my favorite, sort of like an icon in my eyes. I grew up watching him and he was my first Jersey #11. It's hard for me to explain as it is about emotion. I guess I'm just a Giant's football softie.

exactly Scoops.......For all of you that do not remember Simms thew a much tighter prettier pass which is one reason he was successful in the meadowlands late in year....something Eli still has not mastered.....no I am not criticizing Eli...but he does struggle in the wind........

jomo
08-10-2012, 05:20 PM
Roosevelt, when I saw bittersweet, it's not bitterness. It's like the day you realize you are stronger than your dad. You're happy but you also realize that he's mortal. It's bittersweet for me because Simms was always my favorite, sort of like an icon in my eyes. I grew up watching him and he was my first Jersey #11. It's hard for me to explain as it is about emotion. I guess I'm just a Giant's football softie.This is such a tough call partly because of emotion. Let's start with this: it was a different era for the NFL and so stats have to be less relevant. Next up, the Giants were constructed differently, built around the run. In those days it was a given that if you were a northeast team and aspired to the playoffs then a great running game was the way to win in December. Next, Phil's best receiver through that era was his tight end, Bavaro. He was throwing to a bunch of guys who frankly would never make this team or most teams of that era. They were all pretty much the same type of receiver; small, shifty, not very fast but above average hands. There wasn't a game breaker or even pro bowl calibre receiver amongst, McConkey, Bobby Johnson, Lionel Manuel etal. Lastly, Phil was the most courageous QB I have ever seen, staring down a fierce pass rush up the middle. Phill improved every year, gradually taking the mistakes out of his game and then ultimately becoming a playmaker. He threw a great seam pass and deep out (in windy Giants Stadium) which was quite a feat. He didn't throw the swing pass or deep ball especially well despite great arm strength. He was smart and tough and gritty and a perfect QB for the Giants of that era. He definitely could and I would say should be in the HOF.

That said, Eli is already better.

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 05:22 PM
Roosevelt, when I saw bittersweet, it's not bitterness. It's like the day you realize you are stronger than your dad. You're happy but you also realize that he's mortal. It's bittersweet for me because Simms was always my favorite, sort of like an icon in my eyes. I grew up watching him and he was my first Jersey #11. It's hard for me to explain as it is about emotion. I guess I'm just a Giant's football softie.

No I hear ya. Simms is my favorite Giant of all time too.

giantsfan420
08-10-2012, 05:22 PM
That is just an asinine comment as history has proven.

In 1983 Bill Parcells picked Scott Brunner over Simms as his starter and we went 3-12-1. Maybe you should remind everyone about that as well. And be sure to use exclamation points when you do.

well to be fair BP didnt feel Simms was the better QB for the team at that point. BP had his beefs with Simms, and it usually had to do with Simms not living up to what BP expected. I believe that there was another qb battle that simms ended up winning a few years afte that. it took a while for simms to win BP over I guess

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 05:30 PM
well to be fair BP didnt feel Simms was the better QB for the team at that point. BP had his beefs with Simms, and it usually had to do with Simms not living up to what BP expected. I believe that there was another qb battle that simms ended up winning a few years afte that. it took a while for simms to win BP over I guess

You think so? I'm pretty sure if you asked Parcells about that decision he'd tell you he ****ed up. I knew the moment it was announced and so did the Giant beat writers. I remember cutting out an article by Dave Anderson (?) who's headline read the morning after the decision: "Parcells, you picked the wrong man".

fansince69
08-10-2012, 05:38 PM
well to be fair BP didnt feel Simms was the better QB for the team at that point. BP had his beefs with Simms, and it usually had to do with Simms not living up to what BP expected. I believe that there was another qb battle that simms ended up winning a few years afte that. it took a while for simms to win BP over I guess

What it had to do with was Simms would not take BP crap...a trait which BP later came to respect....It is true Simms/ BP had more than their share of disagreements but in the end they both respected each other....In either case when both Hoss and Brunner were chosen over Simms.... BP admitted he was wrong....and well Ray Handlys results speak for them self

giantsfan420
08-10-2012, 05:40 PM
You think so? I'm pretty sure if you asked Parcells about that decision he'd tell you he ****ed up. I knew the moment it was announced and so did the Giant beat writers. I remember cutting out an article by Dave Anderson (?) who's headline read the morning after the decision: "Parcells, you picked the wrong man".
oh of course he messed up. im just speaking at that time...

bigjeep
08-10-2012, 05:53 PM
That is just an asinine comment as history has proven.

In 1983 Bill Parcells picked Scott Brunner over Simms as his starter and we went 3-12-1. Maybe you should remind everyone about that as well. And be sure to use exclamation points when you do.

Simms had a great defense behind him! But he is great on TV as a color guy!

scoopscj
08-10-2012, 05:55 PM
One of the things in my mind's eye that separated Simms from Manning was Simm's toughness. I remember a game vs the Redskins that Simm's threw a perfect corner TD pass before the receiver even broke on the ball and a blitzer was coming hard and Simm's waited until the last second, threw it, hit the turf, and the receiver turned around and it landed right in his hands. I think it was Bobby Johnson. Simm's took hit after hit after hit.

Fast Forward to 2011 NFCCG vs the Niners. Eli took the same kind of beating Simm's did and got right back up. No happy feet like Kerry Collins. Simply tough and determined.

Two greats, too hard to compare. Stats be damned.



Scoops

gumby74
08-10-2012, 05:56 PM
I just think of it this way. Simms is a Harley. Eli is more of a racing Bike.

rainierjef
08-10-2012, 05:58 PM
sigh* another 50+ page thread

jints10
08-10-2012, 06:00 PM
Lol this is not even close.....I will always love Phil for getting us our first Soup.....their is also a special place in my heart for Runner for our first playoff win in my lifetime.......but Eli is hands down the best the Giants have ever had.

bigjeep
08-10-2012, 06:04 PM
One of the things in my mind's eye that separated Simms from Manning was Simm's toughness. I remember a game vs the Redskins that Simm's threw a perfect corner TD pass before the receiver even broke on the ball and a blitzer was coming hard and Simm's waited until the last second, threw it, hit the turf, and the receiver turned around and it landed right in his hands. I think it was Bobby Johnson. Simm's took hit after hit after hit.

Fast Forward to 2011 NFCCG vs the Niners. Eli took the same kind of beating Simm's did and got right back up. No happy feet like Kerry Collins. Simply tough and determined.

Two greats, too hard to compare. Stats be damned.



Scoops

After watching the beating that Manning took in the 2011 NFCCG vs the Niners, there is no tougher QB in the league, past or present! Simms never took a beating like that in his career!

fansince69
08-10-2012, 06:05 PM
sigh* another 50+ page thread

I hope it is that short

fansince69
08-10-2012, 06:07 PM
After watching the beating that Manning took in the 2011 NFCCG vs the Niners, there is no tougher QB in the league, past or present! Simms never took a beating like that in his career!

you are either blind or aren't old enough to remember....That 49er game was an every week event for Simms

scoopscj
08-10-2012, 06:12 PM
you are either blind or aren't old enough to remember....That 49er game was an every week event for Simms

Simm's got beat like Tina Turner.... or a modern day Rhianna.

bigjeep
08-10-2012, 06:19 PM
you are either blind or aren't old enough to remember....That 49er game was an every week event for Simms

Never happened!

fansince69
08-10-2012, 06:21 PM
Never happened!

wow....taking a break from reality I guess

bigjeep
08-10-2012, 06:28 PM
wow....taking a break from reality I guess

Calm down, Phil was OK, I listed him as the third best QB. But he never took the beating that Eli has taken in his career so far. The linemen are bigger and much stronger today then when Simms played. By the way, I remember when Chucking Charlie Connerly was still flinging them!

giantsfan420
08-10-2012, 06:31 PM
After watching the beating that Manning took in the 2011 NFCCG vs the Niners, there is no tougher QB in the league, past or present! Simms never took a beating like that in his career!

no qb has.

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 09:46 PM
Simms had a great defense behind him! But he is great on TV as a color guy!

Who asked you?

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 09:47 PM
Never happened!

Your clueless.

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 09:50 PM
no qb has.

Please. Let's not over exaggerate. Eli's performance against Niners was tremendous. But a lot of QB's have taken a pounding.

If you want to talk about tough, watch Hosteler's performance in Super Bowl XXV.

jomo
08-10-2012, 10:01 PM
lol Rosey standing at the net hitting volleys down the line for winners!

NYG 5
08-10-2012, 10:54 PM
as far as wins/MVP calibur goes,

1. Eli Manning
2. Y.A. Tittle
3. Charlie Connerly
4. Phil Simms
5. Kerry Collins

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 11:07 PM
lol Rosey standing at the net hitting volleys down the line for winners!

:-)

**** this message board and it's post restrictions.

Roosevelt
08-10-2012, 11:09 PM
as far as wins/MVP calibur goes,

1. Eli Manning
2. Y.A. Tittle
3. Charlie Connerly
4. Phil Simms
5. Kerry Collins

Seriously? If you want to rank NYG QB MVP's then you have to rank Simms first based on the talent around them.

giantsfan420
08-10-2012, 11:27 PM
Please. Let's not over exaggerate. Eli's performance against Niners was tremendous. But a lot of QB's have taken a pounding.

If you want to talk about tough, watch Hosteler's performance in Super Bowl XXV.

im not exaggerating. whens the last time u can remember a qb getting hit 20 plus times in a game? and still playing at an amazing level? i just hnestly cant remember any other qb facing that kinda pressure but if u know of some examples where a qb is getting blasted 20x in a playoff game (heck even reg season game) lemme know

Roosevelt
08-11-2012, 12:10 AM
im not exaggerating. whens the last time u can remember a qb getting hit 20 plus times in a game? and still playing at an amazing level? i just hnestly cant remember any other qb facing that kinda pressure but if u know of some examples where a qb is getting blasted 20x in a playoff game (heck even reg season game) lemme know

Watch Hostetler's pounding in SB XXV and then tell me what you think.

zimonami
08-11-2012, 12:21 AM
Hard for me to believe how many forget and minimize Simms toughness in comparison to Eli. Eli taking 20 brutal hits in the SF game sealed it for too many of you. You don't want stats, but I had to check out a stat to make a point.
Before showing the stat, I want you all to remember that Simms developed a reputation for holding the ball until the last possible second to give the WR's time to get open... and that the rules for roughing the passer were quite a bit more lenient back then. Simms got hit as he released, or after, more times than Eli ever will in his career.
Now, the stat...
Eli was sacked 194 times in his first 121 games.
Simms was sacked 396 times in his first 124 games.
C'mon people. Simms regularly ate dirst in his career. His OLine didn't become All Stars until 1986, his 8th year.
See my Avatar? It will always be Simms.
That being said, I think Eli is the better, more complete QB.

NYG 5
08-11-2012, 12:30 AM
Seriously? If you want to rank NYG QB MVP's then you have to rank Simms first based on the talent around them.


its the simplest, most objective way i can rank them.

Eli, 2-0 in championships, 3 pro bowls, a franchise QB that hasn't had the missed games and coaching decisions that plagued Simms career.

Conerly, 4 championship appearances, 1 win, NFL MVP in 1959, 2 pro bowls

Tittle, 3 championship appearances, NFL MVP in 1963, 7 pro bowls.

Simms, 1-0 in championships, 2 pro bowls.

Collins, 0-1 in championships, 2 pro bowls.

also, Ed Danowski won 2 championships with the team in '34 and '38, although i don't remember seeing any actual footage of him playing. i don't know how they employed the QB back then.

if you want to go by talent around them, everything starts getting more iffy and subjective. Eli has had great offensive units around him in 2007, and a great receiving corps this year but a poor offensive line. Tittle played on a team with 4 or 5 hall of famers. Simms had great offensive lines and a defense, but no real receivers aside from Bavaro, Collins had great skill players but poor offensive lines. you could go all day debating it this way. I was just looking at wins, accolades, moments and success with the team.

Drez
08-11-2012, 12:58 AM
Like you I'm as a big a Simms fan as they come, but don't feel any bitterness towards Eli. While the circumstances of the playing careers are so different, they do have the similarity of trying to win the fans over.

Guys like you and I will always remember with great fondness what Simms did for our organization during those dark years. The fact that he is one of eleven Giants to have his jersey retired says everything anyone needs to know about Phil.

One can make the argument that Simms is the best QB not in the HoF.

I'll say the edge goes to Eli, though.

The fact that this is a valid conversation when Eli has only played half/just over half his career should tell you a lot about where Eli stands as a QB in Giants history.

But, isn't this a lot like picking your favorite kid?

jhostetler
08-11-2012, 01:27 AM
Speaking from experience of watching both of them play - it is very hard to pick one over the other - very different rules today than when Simms played - case in point - that hit Marshall put on Montana was highlight caliber for incredible plays - today Marshall would have gotten 15 yard flag and possibly ejected for roughing the passer/intentionally driving into the ground/ and or for leading with his helmet.

Also, Eli has much much better offensive weapons than Phil did. Back then the Giants were a ball control running team, content to have 8:00 plus drives resulting in field goals and relying on thier defense. Kinda hard to be intricate in the passing game when you only serious passing threat was Mowat/Bavarro/Cross and Megget in on third down. Trying to recall Giants recievers from that time period and come up with McKonkey and the father, who is now in jail, of the RB from clemson. in other words very forgettable recievers.

While Eli has had the likes of Tiki Barber, BJ, AB, in the backfield, Shockey, Toomer,Plaxico, Steve Smith,Nicks, Cruz, Manningham etc etc.

Yes Eli has two SB mvp's - but Simms also lead us to a dominant season in 89-90 until an injury - Hstetler stepped into a machine on a roll.

I believe in the end Eli will be the greatest Giant QB of our lifetimes and then some, but right now I rank them even.

BTW My original board name was Hostetler, over 900 posts - for some reason the new boards did not recognize my password.

Drez
08-11-2012, 01:36 AM
BTW My original board name was Hostetler, over 900 posts - for some reason the new boards did not recognize my password.
If you have the email that you signed that account up with, you can have the mods reset the password for you.

Roosevelt
08-11-2012, 08:57 PM
its the simplest, most objective way i can rank them.

Eli, 2-0 in championships, 3 pro bowls, a franchise QB that hasn't had the missed games and coaching decisions that plagued Simms career.

Conerly, 4 championship appearances, 1 win, NFL MVP in 1959, 2 pro bowls

Tittle, 3 championship appearances, NFL MVP in 1963, 7 pro bowls.

Simms, 1-0 in championships, 2 pro bowls.

Collins, 0-1 in championships, 2 pro bowls.

also, Ed Danowski won 2 championships with the team in '34 and '38, although i don't remember seeing any actual footage of him playing. i don't know how they employed the QB back then.

if you want to go by talent around them, everything starts getting more iffy and subjective. Eli has had great offensive units around him in 2007, and a great receiving corps this year but a poor offensive line. Tittle played on a team with 4 or 5 hall of famers. Simms had great offensive lines and a defense, but no real receivers aside from Bavaro, Collins had great skill players but poor offensive lines. you could go all day debating it this way. I was just looking at wins, accolades, moments and success with the team.


To be fair, you have to give Phil some credit for the 1990 championship. After all he take us to a 10-0 record that season before we hit a rough patch. Jim Burt has stated that win was Phil's. In other words, without him the Giants aren't winning the Super Bowl that year, and I think that is a very fair comment.

And for the record Eli has 2 pro bowls not 3, and Simms was All-Pro once which Eli has not achieved just yet.

Roosevelt
08-11-2012, 08:59 PM
One can make the argument that Simms is the best QB not in the HoF.

I'll say the edge goes to Eli, though.

The fact that this is a valid conversation when Eli has only played half/just over half his career should tell you a lot about where Eli stands as a QB in Giants history.

But, isn't this a lot like picking your favorite kid?

Absolutely. This is similar to Archie and his wife watching Eli play against Peyton.

Roosevelt
08-11-2012, 09:03 PM
Speaking from experience of watching both of them play - it is very hard to pick one over the other - very different rules today than when Simms played - case in point - that hit Marshall put on Montana was highlight caliber for incredible plays - today Marshall would have gotten 15 yard flag and possibly ejected for roughing the passer/intentionally driving into the ground/ and or for leading with his helmet.

Also, Eli has much much better offensive weapons than Phil did. Back then the Giants were a ball control running team, content to have 8:00 plus drives resulting in field goals and relying on thier defense. Kinda hard to be intricate in the passing game when you only serious passing threat was Mowat/Bavarro/Cross and Megget in on third down. Trying to recall Giants recievers from that time period and come up with McKonkey and the father, who is now in jail, of the RB from clemson. in other words very forgettable recievers.

While Eli has had the likes of Tiki Barber, BJ, AB, in the backfield, Shockey, Toomer,Plaxico, Steve Smith,Nicks, Cruz, Manningham etc etc.

Yes Eli has two SB mvp's - but Simms also lead us to a dominant season in 89-90 until an injury - Hstetler stepped into a machine on a roll.

I believe in the end Eli will be the greatest Giant QB of our lifetimes and then some, but right now I rank them even.

BTW My original board name was Hostetler, over 900 posts - for some reason the new boards did not recognize my password.

Well said.

jomo
08-12-2012, 01:35 AM
Hard for me to believe how many forget and minimize Simms toughness in comparison to Eli. Eli taking 20 brutal hits in the SF game sealed it for too many of you. You don't want stats, but I had to check out a stat to make a point.
Before showing the stat, I want you all to remember that Simms developed a reputation for holding the ball until the last possible second to give the WR's time to get open... and that the rules for roughing the passer were quite a bit more lenient back then. Simms got hit as he released, or after, more times than Eli ever will in his career.
Now, the stat...
Eli was sacked 194 times in his first 121 games.
Simms was sacked 396 times in his first 124 games.
C'mon people. Simms regularly ate dirst in his career. His OLine didn't become All Stars until 1986, his 8th year.
See my Avatar? It will always be Simms.
That being said, I think Eli is the better, more complete QB.+1 zim........................

BlueSanta
08-12-2012, 08:23 AM
I have to be honest. I think Both players are in the perfect situation for their respective abilities.

Simms played in a very conservative, power running offense. Eli would likely have been decent in this system too, but Eli's turnovers would not work in that offense. 16 play drives that last 10 minutes and end in turnover are very hard to overcome.

Similarly, I do not think Simms would have thrived in our current system the way he did in his day. Eli gets the ball out way faster than Simms and has a better arm. Our big plays, which this offense thrives on, just would not happen as frequently with Simms.

The 1 thing the 2 Qbs have in common is that they were both extraordinary big game QBs and 2 all time class NFL players. Instead of asking which is better, we should be glad they played for the Giants.

fansince69
08-12-2012, 09:06 AM
I have to be honest. I think Both players are in the perfect situation for their respective abilities.

Simms played in a very conservative, power running offense. Eli would likely have been decent in this system too, but Eli's turnovers would not work in that offense. 16 play drives that last 10 minutes and end in turnover are very hard to overcome.

Similarly, I do not think Simms would have thrived in our current system the way he did in his day. Eli gets the ball out way faster than Simms and has a better arm. Our big plays, which this offense thrives on, just would not happen as frequently with Simms.

The 1 thing the 2 Qbs have in common is that they were both extraordinary big game QBs and 2 all time class NFL players. Instead of asking which is better, we should be glad they played for the Giants.

I agree with most of this post ,but I do take exception to one part...Simms had a very good arm and was way more accurate than Eli....In fact Simms was more accurate than most Qbs that come to mind....Do not ever discount Phil's ability to pass....he just never got the chance because of the offense he played in.

GameTime
08-12-2012, 09:26 AM
Its really not that complicated. Simms is an all time all time Giants QB. Verse his peers his at the time he was considered one of the better QBs of the day. Smart, tough, good arm, great team mate, leader, knew the game and what the Giants wanted and needed to win.
Eli is a QB in a different time with more on his plate from a football standpoint and media stand point. The pressue on Eli from the his peers and the media is way more than Simms had to endure. I realize Simms was not a fan favortie even when he was 10-0 in the SB year but he has nothing on Eli when nit comes to outside pressure. Overall they are different QBs and I think if they could trade places they would both still be very successfull. Over all I think Eli is a mre well rounded QB. But to outwardly claim one is far superior to the other is BS IMO.

fansince69
08-12-2012, 09:30 AM
Its really not that complicated. Simms is an all time all time Giants QB. Verse his peers his at the time he was considered one of the better QBs of the day. Smart, tough, good arm, great team mate, leader, knew the game and what the Giants wanted and needed to win.
Eli is a QB in a different time with more on his plate from a football standpoint and media stand point. The pressue on Eli from the his peers and the media is way more than Simms had to endure. I realize Simms was not a fan favortie even when he was 10-0 in the SB year but he has nothing on Eli when nit comes to outside pressure. Overall they are different QBs and I think if they could trade places they would both still be very successfull. Over all I think Eli is a mre well rounded QB. But to outwardly claim one is far superior to the other is BS IMO.

Nicely said....when all is said and done I am very glad they both are/were Giants

nhpgiantsfan
08-12-2012, 09:40 AM
If I had to choose right now, I would go with Eli. But I did love Phil.

With that being said when Eli's career is over I think it's pretty obvious he will be considered by all as the best QB in Giants history and I don't even think the Simms loyalists will debate that. But in fairness to Phil, this debate should be left until Eli has retired.

Diamondring
08-12-2012, 09:57 AM
If I had to choose right now, I would go with Eli. But I did love Phil.

With that being said when Eli's career is over I think it's pretty obvious he will be considered by all as the best QB in Giants history and I don't even think the Simms loyalists will debate that. But in fairness to Phil, this debate should be left until Eli has retired.Don't worry, we can compare again later on when things get more clear.

jerseyrattler
08-12-2012, 10:08 AM
1 & 1A Eli Manning / Phil Simms
IMO Tho, At the rate he's going Eli should claim this spot outright soon.
And one could argue he's done so already

3- Y.A. Tittle

4- Charlie Conerly

5- Fran Tarkenton

6- Hostletter



Fixed that for you, I saw them both.
First off Tittle was a 49er for most of his career
Secondly, Tittle had the advantage of playing on much more talented teams.
There is no way, Tittle woulda survived the relentles beatings Simms took his first few years.
Simms came outta college onto a team that was abysmal, and that's being kind.

fansince69
08-12-2012, 10:31 AM
Fixed that for you, I saw them both.
First off Tittle was a 49er for most of his career
Secondly, Tittle had the advantage of playing on much more talented teams.
There is no way, Tittle woulda survived the relentles beatings Simms took his first few years.
Simms came outta college onto a team that was abysmal, and that's being kind.


Kind of the Way Carr did with the Texans and look what happened to him..........I like your list

Delicreep
08-12-2012, 05:59 PM
I would think this topic could have been, "How old are you?"

If you saw Simms play; I mean as a true Giants fan, I have to feel that you would be hard pressed to say that Eli is better.

That's where I am, and I bet the older posters look to Tittle and Conerly the same way.

My memories of Simms beat out my present with Eli, and that says absolutely nothing about Eli.

BlueSanta
08-12-2012, 08:03 PM
I agree with most of this post ,but I do take exception to one part...Simms had a very good arm and was way more accurate than Eli....In fact Simms was more accurate than most Qbs that come to mind....Do not ever discount Phil's ability to pass....he just never got the chance because of the offense he played in.

Simms arm was good, but it was not as good as Eli. He also was far more conservative than Eli, choosing to throw it downfield far less often as his offense dictated.

But, Simms certainly was more consistently accurate. He would go weeks without interceptions. Which is why I stand by my statement that he was a better fit for the offense they ran back then. Turnovers are the death of ball control offenses.

However, for our current offense Eli is a better fit. Simms did have a slow release and he took too many sacks. Furthermore, he was not a guy who took chances down the field like Eli does. Eli truly is 1 of the best deep ball QBs in the NFL, if not the best. Simms was not a great deep ball QB, he was just "ok."

I mean no disrespect to Simms when I say Eli is a better fit for our current offense. I also mean no disrespect to Eli when I say Simms was a better fit for our offense back then.

BurnerNYG
08-12-2012, 08:26 PM
Man who cares. I love Simms and those Giants back then but let's wait until Eli retires until we compare the 2. No Giant fan should ever disrespect Simms to prove a point. That man with the help of the team and coaching staff gave us our very first Superbowl win. Eli is the man but let's not throw Phil under the bus.

fansince69
08-12-2012, 10:13 PM
Simms arm was good, but it was not as good as Eli. He also was far more conservative than Eli, choosing to throw it downfield far less often as his offense dictated.

But, Simms certainly was more consistently accurate. He would go weeks without interceptions. Which is why I stand by my statement that he was a better fit for the offense they ran back then. Turnovers are the death of ball control offenses.

However, for our current offense Eli is a better fit. Simms did have a slow release and he took too many sacks. Furthermore, he was not a guy who took chances down the field like Eli does. Eli truly is 1 of the best deep ball QBs in the NFL, if not the best. Simms was not a great deep ball QB, he was just "ok."

I mean no disrespect to Simms when I say Eli is a better fit for our current offense. I also mean no disrespect to Eli when I say Simms was a better fit for our offense back then.

I am sorry...we will have to agree to disagree...most of your criticism of Simms was based on the offense he played in...not his skill

eliland
08-12-2012, 11:38 PM
Dave Brown? jk. Sorry don't know how to make it red


A friend of mine saw Dave Brown in Belmar or something and thought, "wow, that guy was a starting qb and here he is just pushing a babystroller".

Then he thought about it... as a first rounder, he probably signed a nice contract... He lasted 10 years in the NFL, cashing checks every year, but never played in enough games to get an injury that will plague him the rest of his life.

So basically he got in, made tens of millions, and got out, young and healthy.... Sounds like he won.

greenca190
08-12-2012, 11:50 PM
eli has won two, simms won one.

eli.

zimonami
08-12-2012, 11:56 PM
A friend of mine saw Dave Brown in Belmar or something and thought, "wow, that guy was a starting qb and here he is just pushing a babystroller".

Then he thought about it... as a first rounder, he probably signed a nice contract... He lasted 10 years in the NFL, cashing checks every year, but never played in enough games to get an injury that will plague him the rest of his life.

So basically he got in, made tens of millions, and got out, young and healthy.... Sounds like he won.
He didn't earn 10's of millions in his day. He was lucky to earn between 1-2 million in his 10 years

zimonami
08-13-2012, 12:02 AM
I am sorry...we will have to agree to disagree...most of your criticism of Simms was based on the offense he played in...not his skill
I have to disagree, too. Simms threw a much harder pass than Eli. And, he was very accurate. Simms was one of the best at driling a tight spiral through the Meadowland's winds. Eli throws a much softer pass. That is NOT to say Eli doesn't have a stronger arm... it means that Phil threw a much harder pass in the wind. Eli could probably drill it better in the wind, but it seems that he rarely does.

eliland
08-13-2012, 12:06 AM
He didn't earn 10's of millions in his day. He was lucky to earn between 1-2 million in his 10 years

Really,

This is why i hate the internet, people spout off without taking the 15 seconds it takes to do their homework... 13 million for four years.. plus the signing bonus, plus what he got in the prior contract.. plus whatever Arizona got for him. He was a number one draft pick in the number one market.. and you think he made 1-2 million in his whole career?

--
--


May 04, 1996|By DOM AMORE; Courant Staff Writer
Leigh Steinberg represents most of the top quarterbacks in the NFL, but some of his hardest negotiating was with -- rather than for -- the Giants' Dave Brown.
``We were playing golf in Florida,'' Steinberg said, ``and Dave said, `I want this contract done by May 1.' I got him to extend it to May 7. Then he said no, the May 7 thing was off.''
http://articles.courant.com/images/pixel.gif
http://articles.courant.com/images/pixel.gif
The negotiations between Steinberg and the Giants were long and odd, but they ended happily Friday, when Brown signed a four-year, $13 million contract.
``I feel a tremendous urge to repay this organization for what they've done for me,'' Brown said. ``I don't want to go anywhere else. These are guys who took me in the draft, who have been good to me all along.''
Said Giants general manager George Young: ``I was very pleased that Dave wanted to be here, that he didn't talk about going anywhere else as part of the negotiating process. I'm very appreciative of that.''
Brown, 26, has been with the Giants four years, their starter for two. He completed 254 of 456 passes for 2,814 yards and 11 touchdowns last season as the Giants missed the playoffs with a 5-11 record. He was sacked 44 times and had 10 interceptions in leading an offense rated 29th overall and last in passing. The Giants have won 14 of the 31 games Brown has started, but he has never passed for 300 yards in a game, and reached 200 yards only 12 times.
When last season ended, Brown, from nearby Westfield, N.J., made it clear he wanted to stay with the Giants, regardless of what that might mean in terms of bargaining power.
``You know I could have found a team [interested in Brown],'' Steinberg said. ``Dave is a quality young quarterback, and a lot of teams have a need. But Dave gave me strong marching orders. He's making a stand here.''
Steinberg wanted Brown to have a four-year contract that paid about $4 million his final year; otherwise, he wanted a shorter deal. Steinberg helped free agent quarterback Neil O'Donnell get a five-year, $25 million contract with the Jets.
The Giants wanted the four-year commitment. Having invested a first-round draft pick and four years in Brown's development, they could not let him leave. So neither side had a hammer in the negotiations, and they dragged out. Brown, who had wanted to re-sign before the free agency period began Feb. 15, was antsy.
Finally, Steinberg went to New York Thursday night, and he and Young met in the middle. Brown got a $4 million signing bonus, and salaries rising from $1.25 million in 1997 to $3.25 million in 2000.
Now Brown can concentrate on the Giants' off-season workouts. He has set goals of improving his velocity and accuracy. With coach Dan Reeves hinting at giving Tommy Maddox a chance at the starting job, and the Giants drafting Florida State quarterback Danny Kanell in the fourth round, there will be more pressure on Brown.

zimonami
08-13-2012, 12:33 AM
Really,

This is why i hate the internet, people spout off without taking the 15 seconds it takes to do their homework... 13 million for four years.. plus the signing bonus, plus what he got in the prior contract.. plus whatever Arizona got for him. He was a number one draft pick in the number one market.. and you think he made 1-2 million in his whole career?
May 04, 1996|By DOM AMORE; Courant Staff Writer
Leigh Steinberg represents most of the top quarterbacks in the NFL, but some of his hardest negotiating was with -- rather than for -- the Giants' Dave Brown.
``We were playing golf in Florida,'' Steinberg said, ``and Dave said, `I want this contract done by May 1.' I got him to extend it to May 7. Then he said no, the May 7 thing was off.''
http://articles.courant.com/images/pixel.gif
http://articles.courant.com/images/pixel.gif
The negotiations between Steinberg and the Giants were long and odd, but they ended happily Friday, when Brown signed a four-year, $13 million contract.
``I feel a tremendous urge to repay this organization for what they've done for me,'' Brown said. ``I don't want to go anywhere else. These are guys who took me in the draft, who have been good to me all along.''
Said Giants general manager George Young: ``I was very pleased that Dave wanted to be here, that he didn't talk about going anywhere else as part of the negotiating process. I'm very appreciative of that.''
Brown, 26, has been with the Giants four years, their starter for two. He completed 254 of 456 passes for 2,814 yards and 11 touchdowns last season as the Giants missed the playoffs with a 5-11 record. He was sacked 44 times and had 10 interceptions in leading an offense rated 29th overall and last in passing. The Giants have won 14 of the 31 games Brown has started, but he has never passed for 300 yards in a game, and reached 200 yards only 12 times.
When last season ended, Brown, from nearby Westfield, N.J., made it clear he wanted to stay with the Giants, regardless of what that might mean in terms of bargaining power.
``You know I could have found a team [interested in Brown],'' Steinberg said. ``Dave is a quality young quarterback, and a lot of teams have a need. But Dave gave me strong marching orders. He's making a stand here.''
Steinberg wanted Brown to have a four-year contract that paid about $4 million his final year; otherwise, he wanted a shorter deal. Steinberg helped free agent quarterback Neil O'Donnell get a five-year, $25 million contract with the Jets.
The Giants wanted the four-year commitment. Having invested a first-round draft pick and four years in Brown's development, they could not let him leave. So neither side had a hammer in the negotiations, and they dragged out. Brown, who had wanted to re-sign before the free agency period began Feb. 15, was antsy.
Finally, Steinberg went to New York Thursday night, and he and Young met in the middle. Brown got a $4 million signing bonus, and salaries rising from $1.25 million in 1997 to $3.25 million in 2000.
Now Brown can concentrate on the Giants' off-season workouts. He has set goals of improving his velocity and accuracy. With coach Dan Reeves hinting at giving Tommy Maddox a chance at the starting job, and the Giants drafting Florida State quarterback Danny Kanell in the fourth round, there will be more pressure on Brown.




Ignorant fools like me getting you down? Ruining your enjoyment of the internet?
I do stand corrected. No, I didn't research, and I should have. Just seemed like a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.
But, thanks to supremely knowledgeable and ever alert watchdogs, like yourself, we shall be saved.
--
--

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 12:43 AM
eli has won two, simms won one.

eli.

They both have 2 rings.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 12:51 AM
They both have 2 rings.

let us also not forget that there is a very good chance that Simms goes just as far if he hadn't gotten hurt...he was 11-1....the giants were playing as well that season as any year I can remember Including the years Eli has been here.Simms got hurt and it took them 2-3 games to get things back together.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 12:56 AM
I would think this topic could have been, "How old are you?"

If you saw Simms play; I mean as a true Giants fan, I have to feel that you would be hard pressed to say that Eli is better.

That's where I am, and I bet the older posters look to Tittle and Conerly the same way.

My memories of Simms beat out my present with Eli, and that says absolutely nothing about Eli.


Good point. It's tough to be objective when you are a big fan of a certain player.

But the bottom line is, if you didn't watch both players play you simply have no business voicing an opinion in this thread.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 01:00 AM
let us also not forget that there is a very good chance that Simms goes just as far if he hadn't gotten hurt...he was 11-1....the giants were playing as well that season as any year I can remember Including the years Eli has been here.Simms got hurt and it took them 2-3 games to get things back together.

I think it's fair to say that we're not winning SB XXV without Phil Simms that year.

I don't think we can say the same about Eli and the team in 2007.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 01:05 AM
I think it's fair to say that we're not winning SB XXV without Phil Simms that year.

I don't think we can say the same about Eli and the team in 2007.

and for all you guys that love stats so much that team turned the ball over 14 times in a 16 game schedule(nfl record) .....sorry guys Eli does that easily in interceptions alone...I love Eli...but some of you do not give Simms enough credit....and I still feel it is people that did not see him play and just want to look at stats....that just have nothing good to say about him

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 01:28 AM
I think it's fair to say that we're not winning SB XXV without Phil Simms that year.

I don't think we can say the same about Eli and the team in 2007.

wow. what were u saying again about disrespecting simms shows what kinda fan a person is? i think you can say the same statement only eli insteada simms...

and its so classic how backwards your logic here is...we DID win it without simms that year lmfao...we DIDNT win it without eli in 2007, but whatever you gotta tell urself to feel ok

Diamondring
08-13-2012, 01:32 AM
They both have 2 rings.Yes both have two but one has won two of them or help the team win two of them and that is Eli.

Rat_bastich
08-13-2012, 01:58 AM
Just chiming in with my vote. I saw both of them play, but I go with Eli. Simms might not have had stellar offensive weapons but he did have crushing defenses that kept the games close or even crushed the souls of the opposing players enough to lock it down.

The Eli Giants have won many of their games(more than the Simms Giants I would fathom) with offense and a sometimes struggling defense.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 02:08 AM
Yes both have two but one has won two of them or help the team win two of them and that is Eli.

So you don't think the QB that led the team to 11-1 didn't contribute?Hostetler took over and went 2-2 ...Hmm I would say Simms helped quite a bit....Simms led the Giants to 14-2 one season and 11-1 another...the best Eli has managed is 12-4 and didnt even win a playoff game that year

Again,I love Eli but please stop putting down someone you didn't SEE play.....Its kind of ironic that in both of Eli's super bowls he made heroic 4th quarter comebacks and he is a hero.............In the one Superbowl that Simms played in...he went 22/25 and the game wasn't even close in the 4th quarter..Simms put 39 points up...In 2 superbowls Eli has scored a total of 38 in a time when everyone scores.....kind of makes you wonder

eliland
08-13-2012, 02:25 AM
[

Again,I love Eli but please stop putting down someone you didn't SEE play....


Exactly... its like those silly cowgirls fans talking about how Romo is the best Dallas QB ever... They were 5 when Aikman was winning, and not born for Roger the Dodger.

jakegibbs
08-13-2012, 07:54 AM
[

Again,I love Eli but please stop putting down someone you didn't SEE play....


Exactly... its like those silly cowgirls fans talking about how Romo is the best Dallas QB ever... They were 5 when Aikman was winning, and not born for Roger the Dodger.

Chucking Charlie Conerly #42 best dang RB ever to play QB in NFL & that's a fact Jack.

Dorothy
08-13-2012, 08:26 AM
Simms won the first SUPERBOWL for the Giants. that was after 20 some years of not being a winning team. he will be forever a favorite QB of the team. today is Eli's time. Already 2 SUPERBOWL mvp's and still has a few good years to go. why does one have to be better than the other, different times different teams. Why does one have to be better than the other??????

bigjeep
08-13-2012, 09:06 AM
Chucking Charlie Conerly #42 best dang RB ever to play QB in NFL & that's a fact Jack.

He saved Y.A.'s *** a few times!

Morehead State
08-13-2012, 10:54 AM
Good point. It's tough to be objective when you are a big fan of a certain player.

But the bottom line is, if you didn't watch both players play you simply have no business voicing an opinion in this thread.
I have to agree.
Clearly Eli will be the top statistical QB in Giants history when all is said and done. But I still have to say that Phil was just a better football player. Put Phil on a team with these WR's and this offensive scheme and he would be unbeleivable.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 01:40 PM
wow. what were u saying again about disrespecting simms shows what kinda fan a person is? i think you can say the same statement only eli insteada simms...

and its so classic how backwards your logic here is...we DID win it without simms that year lmfao...we DIDNT win it without eli in 2007, but whatever you gotta tell urself to feel ok


What needs to be said? He's one of eleven Giants to have his jersey retired. And I don't think I need to remind you there are a lot of great Giants players, including HOF'ers, whose jerseys have not been retired.

Phil led us to a 10-0 start in that 1990 season. I've posted this before - listening to Jim Burt about a year ago stating "SB XXV was Phil's. Without him we don't win it." And while I liked Jeff Hostetler, he was not as good as Phil. He did bring the added dimension of being able to run with the ball, but basically Parcells told him "just don't lose the game for us." So make no mistake this was Phil's team that year.

Now, if you asked me to name one player in 2007, who had he not played we wouldn't have won Super Bowl XLII, the answer is very simple. Plaxico Burress. Without Plaxico we had no shot at winning that year. He was easily our offensive MVP.

I actually see similarities with the 1990 team and this team. Simms/Hoss - Eli/Carr. If Carr was pressed into action I think we would still be a good team.

nhpgiantsfan
08-13-2012, 01:41 PM
Silly to argue about this now. You can say it's close right now. But if Eli should ever get one more SB, the conversation ends forever, And Eli will be the face of the Giants for the rest of his life and will go down in history as the best Giant ever, LT included. (And before anyone jumps on me. LT is my all time favorite Giant)

Morehead State
08-13-2012, 01:47 PM
Silly to argue about this now. You can say it's close right now. But if Eli should ever get one more SB, the conversation ends forever, And Eli will be the face of the Giants for the rest of his life and will go down in history as the best Giant ever, LT included. (And before anyone jumps on me. LT is my all time favorite Giant)
I disagree.
You guys talk about team accomplishments with Eli like SB wins. The only thing I go by are the two football players and who was better.
As football players on the field, I believe strongly that Phil was just a better all around football player. There are 1000 variables that niether player can control. (like the players around them, opponents, coaching, era........) But I think if you put Phil in his prime on this team with these players and this scheme, Phil would be an all time great QB.

gumby74
08-13-2012, 02:17 PM
This might not make sense to some, but on a good team I'd rather take Phil. If the team is average/poor I'd rather have Eli. Eli, while having more raw talent in making the rediculous difficult throw, doesn't have the grit, "solidness", "bulldog", pin point accuracy, and consistency that Simms had. I see Eli as more finesse and Simms more as a kick you in the mouth type personality.

Of course, Eli's book remains to be finished. If he continues to have years like last year, it will be difficult for me not to say Eli at the end of his career.

But at the end of the day, the QB I probably will associate the most with Giants football is Simms. Mainly because I grew up watching him and the fact that the NFL is turning into a pass happy pansy's league.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 02:26 PM
Silly to argue about this now. You can say it's close right now. But if Eli should ever get one more SB, the conversation ends forever, And Eli will be the face of the Giants for the rest of his life and will go down in history as the best Giant ever, LT included. (And before anyone jumps on me. LT is my all time favorite Giant)

I am honestly not trying to hijack this thread ,but whoa......Lt is widely condidered the greatest LB ever and widely considered one of the top few defensive players ever.....Possibly in the top 10 of ALL players......Manning isn't even the best qb playing right now....how can you even go there?

Btw a point i made earlier just not sure if anyone caught it

In the only Superbowl that simms got to play in...he led his offense with 22/25 scoring 39 points........ELI scored 38 points in both games together with the high power offense we have in today's game.

also ELI gets all kinds of credit for his 4th quarter comebacks in both super-bowls....Simms Superbowl was not even a close game by the 4th quarter.....just saying

GameTime
08-13-2012, 02:29 PM
I disagree.
You guys talk about team accomplishments with Eli like SB wins. The only thing I go by are the two football players and who was better.
As football players on the field, I believe strongly that Phil was just a better all around football player. There are 1000 variables that niether player can control. (like the players around them, opponents, coaching, era........) But I think if you put Phil in his prime on this team with these players and this scheme, Phil would be an all time great QB. And Eli is in that situation and making happen. So how is Simms better?? Other than it just being your opinion...which in itself is cool.

dezzzR
08-13-2012, 02:32 PM
I disagree.
You guys talk about team accomplishments with Eli like SB wins. The only thing I go by are the two football players and who was better.
As football players on the field, I believe strongly that Phil was just a better all around football player. There are 1000 variables that niether player can control. (like the players around them, opponents, coaching, era........) But I think if you put Phil in his prime on this team with these players and this scheme, Phil would be an all time great QB.What does "a better football player" mean? Faster? Stronger arm? Tighter spiral? More accurate? Kind of a general term imo.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 02:41 PM
What does "a better football player" mean? Faster? Stronger arm? Tighter spiral? More accurate? Kind of a general term imo.


I am not trying to answer for Morehead,but being bigger and faster and stronger does not make you a better football player....you can have the physical attributes in the world and still not know HOW to play the game...just like some of the best players do not always have all those physical tools


every year players are drafted because they run fast or lift a certain amount and fail on the field.....sometimes it is what is in a guys heart and you can not measure that

gumby74
08-13-2012, 02:48 PM
I am not trying to answer for Morehead,but being bigger and faster and stronger does not make you a better football player....you can have the physical attributes in the world and still not know HOW to play the game...just like some of the best players do not always have all those physical tools


every year players are drafted because they run fast or lift a certain amount and fail on the field.....sometimes it is what is in a guys heart and you can not measure that

Chase Blackburn.

dezzzR
08-13-2012, 02:58 PM
I am not trying to answer for Morehead,but being bigger and faster and stronger does not make you a better football player....you can have the physical attributes in the world and still not know HOW to play the game...just like some of the best players do not always have all those physical tools


every year players are drafted because they run fast or lift a certain amount and fail on the field.....sometimes it is what is in a guys heart and you can not measure thatId like to hear what Simms did better than Eli. Simply stating "he was a better football player" holds no weight.

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 03:01 PM
in my opinion, eli is the more talented, tougher, more accomplished football player/qb. simms is a great giant, but id say the strong strong majority already recognize eli as the better player. (as evident in this thread how a few pick simms while everyone else picks eli. i personally dont subscribe to the "majority say this so it is true" theory and I only bring it up bc a few posters do subscribe to that thought process)
Eli has the stronger arm, he has become as accurate if not more accurate than simms. simms was tough, but injury prone. he wouldnt have survived that NFC CG, and thats not to disrespect him, Simms stood in the pocket and took his fair share of hits, he just ended up getting hurt...

further, simms had one of the all time great defenses at his disposal. he would lead the offense and team to 17-14, 10-7 type wins...whereas eli has had a great d, just not near the level simms had. and for the better wr's eli has had, simms had the better OL RB and TE, which is a QB's best friend imo.

Elis talent and overall ability could have run the team that simms had, whereas i dont think u can say simms would be able to run this team the way eli has.

Eli also obviously led his team to 2 sb wins with 2 sb mvps. whereas simms won once, while having a team good enough to win it all with the backup. carr wasnt leading us to any sb win in 07 or 2011, and carr was a former 1 overall pick...

but yeah, i can respect people choosing simms, he def. led some great moments and memories. but to me, its clear eli is the better, more accomplished, more talented, with better ability and a much higher ceiling...

edit- and i forgot to add eli is more of a student of the game with a higher football IQ who can beat u with his arm/toughness or his mind.

nhpgiantsfan
08-13-2012, 03:04 PM
I disagree.
You guys talk about team accomplishments with Eli like SB wins. The only thing I go by are the two football players and who was better.
As football players on the field, I believe strongly that Phil was just a better all around football player. There are 1000 variables that niether player can control. (like the players around them, opponents, coaching, era........) But I think if you put Phil in his prime on this team with these players and this scheme, Phil would be an all time great QB.

When making a case for who is a better QB. You can't make your claim on "if this guy had Eli's surrounding cast." Because you just don't know the answer to that. In the end, all we have to judge by is who had more success, and who had better stats, not who woulda, coulda, & shoulda done with what players or era's.

If my Aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 03:10 PM
Silly to argue about this now. You can say it's close right now. But if Eli should ever get one more SB, the conversation ends forever, And Eli will be the face of the Giants for the rest of his life and will go down in history as the best Giant ever, LT included. (And before anyone jumps on me. LT is my all time favorite Giant)

I disagree as well. You don't judge a player's skill by Championships. Dan Marino is a perfect example of this.

And even though Eli will most likely own every Giants passing record when he's finished, I don't think you can compare him to LT. The league had never seen anyone like LT before, but there certainly have been a lot of really good quarterbacks.

nhpgiantsfan
08-13-2012, 03:20 PM
I am honestly not trying to hijack this thread ,but whoa......Lt is widely condidered the greatest LB ever and widely considered one of the top few defensive players ever.....Possibly in the top 10 of ALL players......Manning isn't even the best qb playing right now....how can you even go there?

Btw a point i made earlier just not sure if anyone caught it

In the only Superbowl that simms got to play in...he led his offense with 22/25 scoring 39 points........ELI scored 38 points in both games together with the high power offense we have in today's game.

also ELI gets all kinds of credit for his 4th quarter comebacks in both super-bowls....Simms Superbowl was not even a close game by the 4th quarter.....just saying

Ok, I can agree with your point about LT, and I guess I may have stretched it there a little bit. But with a third ring, he would be praised here like Montana is in SF, and like Aikman is in Dallas. He'd be the face of this team forever. He'd be automatic HOF (if he isn't already) another thing Simms isn't, and there would be NO conversation about who is the best QB in Giants history.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 03:28 PM
Ok, I can agree with your point about LT, and I guess I may have stretched it there a little bit. But with a third ring, he would be praised here like Montana is in SF, and like Aikman is in Dallas. He'd be the face of this team forever. He'd be automatic HOF (if he isn't already) another thing Simms isn't, and there would be NO conversation about who is the best QB in Giants history.


I guess "wouldas" and "couldas" are back on the table?

Morehead State
08-13-2012, 03:28 PM
Id like to hear what Simms did better than Eli. Simply stating "he was a better football player" holds no weight.
Phil had a stronger arm. He had a much faster release. He was a far more accurate passer. he was much more courageous in the pocket. Very few guys stayed in the pocket and took a hit like Phil did in order to complete a pass. Its why he got hurt so much early on. There was no chuck and duck in Phil like the Manning brothers. The guy was a warrior. As far as leadership is concerned...who knows. I would say both are fine leaders. I admit that Phil was more ****y early on then Eli was, but I don't think thats a bad thing on the field.
Now Eli has developed in great ability to throw the deep outs with great accuracy and he gets great credit from me on that. Phil threw the seam pass in the middle of the field like no one else. And no one outworks Eli in the film room. Not sure what Phil's habits were in that regard.
Now lets go to the surrounding cast. Until David Carr came along, no QB in NFL history was hit as hard and as often as Phil. Thats due to hit great courage in the pocket. But it worked against him. Phil had Brad Benson and Billy Ard protecting him for a great deal of his career. Eli has generally had very good O lines in his career. Last year being the exception. It wasn't until the later years that Jumbo Elliot came along for Phil.
Phil had Lionel Manuel, Ernie Gray and Bobby Johnson to throw to at WR. Eli had Plaxico, Toomer, Nicks and Cruz. Phil did have Bavaro but that was it.
And lastly....Phil was the QB of the greatest Giants team of all time. That 86 teams was one of the top 5 teams of all time. He was their leader. LT was their best player, but Phil was the leader of the team.
So I did my best to answer your question.

Morehead State
08-13-2012, 03:31 PM
When making a case for who is a better QB. You can't make your claim on "if this guy had Eli's surrounding cast." Because you just don't know the answer to that. In the end, all we have to judge by is who had more success, and who had better stats, not who woulda, coulda, & shoulda done with what players or era's.

If my Aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle.
To try to compare players by their passing stats when one guy was drafted in 1979 and the other in 2004 is about a silly as any argument could ever be.
Have you been watching the NFL lately? Wouldn't you agree that the passing game is "slightly" different.

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 03:38 PM
in my opinion, eli is the more talented, tougher, more accomplished football player/qb. simms is a great giant, but id say the strong strong majority already recognize eli as the better player. (as evident in this thread how a few pick simms while everyone else picks eli. i personally dont subscribe to the "majority say this so it is true" theory and I only bring it up bc a few posters do subscribe to that thought process)
Eli has the stronger arm, he has become as accurate if not more accurate than simms. simms was tough, but injury prone. he wouldnt have survived that NFC CG, and thats not to disrespect him, Simms stood in the pocket and took his fair share of hits, he just ended up getting hurt...

further, simms had one of the all time great defenses at his disposal. he would lead the offense and team to 17-14, 10-7 type wins...whereas eli has had a great d, just not near the level simms had. and for the better wr's eli has had, simms had the better OL RB and TE, which is a QB's best friend imo.

Elis talent and overall ability could have run the team that simms had, whereas i dont think u can say simms would be able to run this team the way eli has.

Eli also obviously led his team to 2 sb wins with 2 sb mvps. whereas simms won once, while having a team good enough to win it all with the backup. carr wasnt leading us to any sb win in 07 or 2011, and carr was a former 1 overall pick...

but yeah, i can respect people choosing simms, he def. led some great moments and memories. but to me, its clear eli is the better, more accomplished, more talented, with better ability and a much higher ceiling...

edit- and i forgot to add eli is more of a student of the game with a higher football IQ who can beat u with his arm/toughness or his mind.

to add, eli also has never had any inkling of a qb battle happening. Simms was great, but he also had a HOF, top 5 HC of all time go in favor of a backup a couple of times (not in just a singular game, but BP chose the backup to be his starter/his guy). ppl think eli was inconsistent, that was nothing compared to part of simms career

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 03:41 PM
edit- i also sometimes wonder how much credit ANY QB should get for that SB run...the defense in essence won the biggest hurdle to getting to the SB by injuring Montana...game was won after that...

Morehead State
08-13-2012, 03:47 PM
to add, eli also has never had any inkling of a qb battle happening. Simms was great, but he also had a HOF, top 5 HC of all time go in favor of a backup a couple of times (not in just a singular game, but BP chose the backup to be his starter/his guy). ppl think eli was inconsistent, that was nothing compared to much of simms career
In the 83 preseason Phil was far better than Brunner. Parcels was in his first year at HC and wanted some continuity. One of the controversies at the time was that Phil stated publicly that Parcels should just give him the job and be done with it. (As I said, Phil was ****y) He was far and away a better player than Brunner and his play in the preseason showed it.
Finally Phil was inserted in the Philly game and dislocated his finger in that same game in Carl Hairstons face mask. As I said, Phil stood in the pocket and took hits, and did it for the team. He was one of the toghest football players I ever saw. And was hugely respected around the league for it.
As for Hostelter....that was Ray Handley and thats all that needed to be said. Another first year coach who was afraid.

Phil was better in Morehead's opinion. But that of course is just that....my opinion.

Morehead State
08-13-2012, 03:50 PM
edit- i also sometimes wonder how much credit ANY QB should get for that SB run...the defense in essence won the biggest hurdle to getting to the SB by injuring Montana...game was won after that...
I think you might have your years wrong. In 1990 Montana was hurt in a tight low scoring game but Hostetler was the Giants QB. In 1986, the Giants put 49 up on the Niners. Joe got hurt but it was like 35-3 at the time.

ponch inda face
08-13-2012, 03:53 PM
to add, eli also has never had any inkling of a qb battle happening. Simms was great, but he also had a HOF, top 5 HC of all time go in favor of a backup a couple of times (not in just a singular game, but BP chose the backup to be his starter/his guy). ppl think eli was inconsistent, that was nothing compared to part of simms career

Bill was all about control and motivation and very rarely did that motivation come from patting a guy on the back. He was big into getting into player's heads when they were not performing up to his standards. Although there is no way to tell and obviously, I don't know this for sure, but I can totally see BP doing the same to Eli when he was not playing well particularly games where he was horrible (like say the Vikings game a couple yrs ago).

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 04:02 PM
Bill was all about control and motivation and very rarely did that motivation come from patting a guy on the back. He was big into getting into player's heads when they were not performing up to his standards. Although there is no way to tell and obviously, I don't know this for sure, but I can totally see BP doing the same to Eli when he was not playing well particularly games where he was horrible (like say the Vikings game a couple yrs ago).

that is a good point

fansince69
08-13-2012, 04:21 PM
I think you might have your years wrong. In 1990 Montana was hurt in a tight low scoring game but Hostetler was the Giants QB. In 1986, the Giants put 49 up on the Niners. Joe got hurt but it was like 35-3 at the time.

yes this is correct...the 86 playoffs was one of the most dominant runs by any team

they won 49-3 over the 49ers
17-0 over the redskins
'39-20 with at least the last bronco touchdown being a defensive indifference....the game was over halfway through the 3rd quarter
the broncos actually led 10-9 at half time and then it was just complete dominance......that 17-0 game was played in a huge wind at giant stadium and phil picked his spots and did what the redskins could not figure out how to do....also what eli has never figured out how to do(not meant as a knock on eli but more of a statement about simms)

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 05:44 PM
Phil had a stronger arm. He had a much faster release. He was a far more accurate passer. he was much more courageous in the pocket. Very few guys stayed in the pocket and took a hit like Phil did in order to complete a pass. Its why he got hurt so much early on. There was no chuck and duck in Phil like the Manning brothers. The guy was a warrior. As far as leadership is concerned...who knows. I would say both are fine leaders. I admit that Phil was more ****y early on then Eli was, but I don't think thats a bad thing on the field.
Now Eli has developed in great ability to throw the deep outs with great accuracy and he gets great credit from me on that. Phil threw the seam pass in the middle of the field like no one else. And no one outworks Eli in the film room. Not sure what Phil's habits were in that regard.
Now lets go to the surrounding cast. Until David Carr came along, no QB in NFL history was hit as hard and as often as Phil. Thats due to hit great courage in the pocket. But it worked against him. Phil had Brad Benson and Billy Ard protecting him for a great deal of his career. Eli has generally had very good O lines in his career. Last year being the exception. It wasn't until the later years that Jumbo Elliot came along for Phil.
Phil had Lionel Manuel, Ernie Gray and Bobby Johnson to throw to at WR. Eli had Plaxico, Toomer, Nicks and Cruz. Phil did have Bavaro but that was it.
And lastly....Phil was the QB of the greatest Giants team of all time. That 86 teams was one of the top 5 teams of all time. He was their leader. LT was their best player, but Phil was the leader of the team.
So I did my best to answer your question.

Well said MS.

I don't think Phil watched a lot of film in the early days. He probably spent more time in the weight room. Don't forget, the Giants didn't have a QB coach back then. It wasn't until Jim Fassel was hired in the early 90's that Phil got into studying the game films. After that he cut down on his INT's quite a bit and attributed his later success to Jim and the film study which allowed him to know what was going to happen before the play began.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 05:48 PM
I am not trying to answer for Morehead,but being bigger and faster and stronger does not make you a better football player....you can have the physical attributes in the world and still not know HOW to play the game...just like some of the best players do not always have all those physical tools


every year players are drafted because they run fast or lift a certain amount and fail on the field.....sometimes it is what is in a guys heart and you can not measure that

Didn't John Madden say that if he could build the perfect QB he would have taken Montana's brains, Elway's arm and Phil's heart?

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 06:20 PM
Id like to hear what Simms did better than Eli. Simply stating "he was a better football player" holds no weight.

Besides having all the tools, Phil was as tough a competitor as there was. Time after time he would stand in that pocket waiting for someone to get open - and throw some incredibly beautiful passes which he never saw because he'd be flat on his back. There was no chuck and duck like we see with Eli, and his body took a beating.

And although Phil has better numbers than quite a few HOF'ers, he wasn't surrounded by a lot of talent on offense, and Parcells was a most conservative coach. That combination kept him from having big numbers. The minute we'd get up on top Parcells would shut down the passing game and try to run out the clock to win it with his defense. Our OC, Ron Earhardt hated Parcells for cutting the balls off his offense. I couldn't stand Parcells as an offensive coach as well. I always felt we won in spite of him.

nhpgiantsfan
08-13-2012, 06:39 PM
Eh, I just don't see it. I guess it's not fair to compare. I still think Eli is the best we've had. I don't think for one second that Phil could've done what Eli was asked to do this past year especially in the 1st half of the season with no running game and very little defense. As a fan who has watched both of them, I never had the feeling of confidence with Phil that I have with Eli. When we had Phil, I always felt like he was on a second tier after Montana, Marino, Elway, and Kelly. I don't feel that way at all with Eli. With Eli I feel that we are right there with the other "big guys".

zimonami
08-13-2012, 06:44 PM
I never saw YA play so for me it's Simms vs Manning.

I saw Simms play and he was really really good. He played in a very different offense. Run first and had no receivers worth mentioning. He has 3 excellent tight ends, Bavaro, Mowatt, and Cross, although Cross was more of a blocking TE. Simms didn't have to do much in terms of running the offense and wasn't in charge of the kind of things Eli is in charge of. Simms threw the most beautiful seam pass. If you don't know what that is, I can explain. Two receivers run similar patterns down field in a vertical pattern. One receiver goes deep, the other goes short. Whichever the safety goes to, you hit the other one. The pass needs to be very accurate and have a tight spiral. Simms was excellent at that pass. I can say that was the key to his success. Simms wasn't the type of QB to make dramatic come back wins because he had a defense that was world class. Simms played in an era where you could clutch and grab the WR and slow them down, and there was no problem hitting a receiver over the middle. Just ask Ronnie Lott. It was tougher to complete passes in that era. Also, Simms played against some of the best defenses on a yearly basis. Redskins, 49ers, and Bears come to mind. Buddy Ryan's 46 defense with the Eagles and Dallas wasn't to shabby either.

Eli does more with the offense and has more responsibility. He has much greater set pieces at WR and RB but an OL that isn't as good. Eli is more of a student of the game, more cerebral and analytical. He is more athletic and more clutch. He is the Derek Jeter of Quarterbacks.

Both are top notch QBs of their time. If I had to choose I'd choose Eli. Eli would not have flourished as well as today in Simms in my opinion. He would have been successful but Simms did so much more with so much less.

Who is to say who is better, both were Giant greats and legends. I'm happy they were and still are a part of this great organization. Both helped us to get and win 4 Super Bowls. Many forget that Simms took us to 10-0 that year before going down in game 13 regular season vs the Bills.

I'll never disrespect either. Both are Giant greats. That's my 2 cents.


Scoops
nice synopsis, scoops.
I did see YA play... that was such a different era that you can't compare. Plus, YA only played here 4 years, and it was in the twilight of his career. But, if you haven't seen any of his Blood and Guts pictures, he was one tough SOB at 40 years old, and had to be... and hardly any rules at all if you felt like clocking the QB's jaw 5 seconds after he released it. Because he only has 4 years I have to put him 4th. Charley Conerly is also hard to grade compared to Phil and Eli, but only because he played here much longer will I rate him 3rd over YA.
Nice to see another, who has actually seen Phil play, confirm that he was "... really, really good."

fansince69
08-13-2012, 06:50 PM
Didn't John Madden say that if he could build the perfect QB he would have taken Montana's brains, Elway's arm and Phil's heart?

That does sound right ...now that you say that ..he did....The problem I have had every single time this argument comes up....it seems the vast majority of the people taking eli in this argument....never saw Simms play and all they want to do is quote stats and they just do not understand the difference between the way the game was played then and now....And even though we all love Eli and are glad he is our QB now.........you guys do not understand how special Simms was......warrior is the best adjective I have heard

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 08:16 PM
Eh, I just don't see it. I guess it's not fair to compare. I still think Eli is the best we've had. I don't think for one second that Phil could've done what Eli was asked to do this past year especially in the 1st half of the season with no running game and very little defense. As a fan who has watched both of them, I never had the feeling of confidence with Phil that I have with Eli. When we had Phil, I always felt like he was on a second tier after Montana, Marino, Elway, and Kelly. I don't feel that way at all with Eli. With Eli I feel that we are right there with the other "big guys".

Those are some pretty good player's although I wouldn't put Kelley in the same class.

And interestingly enough Phil's Giants went on to beat Montana's and Elway's teams in route to our first Super Bowl by a combined score of 88-23.

Interesting also about the feelings you have had with our QB's. I've never felt that about Eli until this year. Eli went through that whole period of sulking and shrugging his shoulders which didn't exactly give me a confident feeling in him. I'm not sure what you were reading into to get that feeling.

jomo
08-13-2012, 08:23 PM
Those are some pretty good player's although I wouldn't put Kelley in the same class.

And interestingly enough Phil's Giants went on to beat Montana's and Elway's teams in route to our first Super Bowl by a combined score of 88-23.

Interesting also about the feelings you have had with our QB's. I've never felt that about Eli until this year. Eli went through that whole period of sulking and shrugging his shoulders which didn't exactly give me a confident feeling in him. I'm not sure what you were reading into to get that feeling.As Phil's career progressed I grew to be very confident in him. By the middle of his career, he had taken all the mistakes out of his game and always made good decisions with the ball............Eli makes a few more types of throw than Phil did, though the back shoulder throw wasn't in vogue back then. Eli is just better, no knock at all on Phil who I loved as a player and believe should be in the HOF, QBs like Griese are in there.

MikeSherrard
08-13-2012, 09:26 PM
You cant hit Quaterbacks or receivers anymore.......how much does that factor in?

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 09:54 PM
i think another thing is simms gave birth to the term "game manager". he was not asked to win games like eli is. he was asked to limit mistakes (which drove BP crazy when he would be careless with the ball) and let the defense do its job. now i know the term "game manager" is looked down on, but not in my book. as simms matured, he was given more responsibility, but for much of his career he was asked to not lose the game, which is the opposite of eli.

and also, about this whole "put simms in an offense like this one or that one..." i always thought that the offense was actually tailored to what simms did well. the seam routes, and an occasional shot down field. i think the legend of simms is replacing the reality a bit in this thread

edit-by simms own admission he didnt put a lot of effort into studying tape and defenses, who knows how the offense could have looked had he mastered it like eli has

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 10:18 PM
in my opinion, eli is the more talented, tougher, more accomplished football player/qb.



??? I think Phil was a better athlete, threw a much better ball and had deadly accuracy. Last year was the first time Eli showed that he could be a decent passer. In previous years he threw his share of awful passes.



Simms is a great giant, but id say the strong strong majority already recognize eli as the better player. (as evident in this thread how a few pick simms while everyone else picks eli. i personally dont subscribe to the "majority say this so it is true" theory and I only bring it up bc a few posters do subscribe to that thought process)

Is that the majority opinion from people who saw both play?


Eli has the stronger arm,

And you claim this based on what? You never saw Phil play.


he has become as accurate if not more accurate than simms.

Not even close. Accuracy has never been his strong point. He's been one of the worst passers I've ever seen in that regard.


simms was tough, but injury prone.

Phil took a pounding no doubt.



he wouldnt have survived that NFC CG,

That's speculation and not even worth a response.



further, simms had one of the all time great defenses at his disposal.

Despite looking like hell during the regular season our defense stepped up big time to help win us 2 championshipd with Eli at QB.



he would lead the offense and team to 17-14, 10-7 type wins...

Now this is where you prove your lack of Giant knowledge. Parcells was famous for running out the clock as soon as we had a lead. Our OC hated what Parcells did to his game plans. He literally forced us to play with one hand tied behind our back. That is why Simms was labeled a game manager. But think of it this way - how easy is it to only throw the ball when the defense knows you have to throw? That's what Parcells did to the Giants offense. Bill was no TC.


whereas eli has had a great d, just not near the level simms had. and for the better wr's eli has had, simms had the better OL RB and TE, which is a QB's best friend imo.

Are you kidding me? Besides the TE you are way off.


Elis talent and overall ability could have run the team that simms had, whereas i dont think u can say simms would be able to run this team the way eli has.

Who on the Giants in 1986 would have done what Plaxico did for Eli. I have a feeling a 2007 Eli would have been eaten alive.


Eli also obviously led his team to 2 sb wins with 2 sb mvps.

Eli didn't lead anyone in 2007. He finally showed up in the playoffs.


whereas simms won once,

Phil didn't just win one. We destroyed everyone in our path to that Super Bowl and he went on to have one of the greatest performances by a quarterback ever.



while having a team good enough to win it all with the backup. carr wasnt leading us to any sb win in 07 or 2011, and carr was a former 1 overall pick...

I disagree. I think Carr is closer to Eli than you think.


but yeah, i can respect people choosing simms, he def. led some great moments and memories. but to me, its clear eli is the better, more accomplished, more talented, with better ability and a much higher ceiling...

edit- and i forgot to add eli is more of a student of the game with a higher football IQ who can beat u with his arm/toughness or his mind.

First of all there was no such thing as a QB coach on the Giants when Phil joined the team. Phil didn't start studying game film until Fassel became the QB coach in the early 90's - so let's keep things in perspective.

Secondly, Eli was given the responsibility of calling the plays at the line for a long time. So now think about all the questionable calls that had everyone screaming for Gilbride's head. In the playoff game vs the Eagles, we all went nuts when we abandoned the run when we pounding it down their throat with a lead. That wasn't Gilbride's call, that was Eli based on his high football IQ as you put it.

So let's keep it real. Until last year Eli was not able to translate his IQ onto the field consistently. Eli had a great year last year - no doubt. Now let's make it two.

Morehead State
08-13-2012, 10:22 PM
i think another thing is simms gave birth to the term "game manager". he was not asked to win games like eli is. he was asked to limit mistakes (which drove BP crazy when he would be careless with the ball) and let the defense do its job. now i know the term "game manager" is looked down on, but not in my book. as simms matured, he was given more responsibility, but for much of his career he was asked to not lose the game, which is the opposite of eli.

and also, about this whole "put simms in an offense like this one or that one..." i always thought that the offense was actually tailored to what simms did well. the seam routes, and an occasional shot down field. i think the legend of simms is replacing the reality a bit in this thread

edit-by simms own admission he didnt put a lot of effort into studying tape and defenses, who knows how the offense could have looked had he mastered it like eli has
You are the first person in the history of Earth to refer to Phil Simms as a "game manager". It may be the most rediculous thing you have ever said on these message boards.
Phil was a true field general. He was what Parcells refered to as a "battlefield commander".
He was a leader of men. What it God's name would compel you to say this?

fansince69
08-13-2012, 10:25 PM
You are the first person in the history of Earth to refer to Phil Simms as a "game manager". It may be the most rediculous thing you have ever said on these message boards.
Phil was a true field general. He was what Parcells refered to as a "battlefield commander".
He was a leader of men. What it God's name would compel you to say this?

Parcells once described Simms as a qb with a linebacker mentality...or something to that effect

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 10:28 PM
i think another thing is simms gave birth to the term "game manager". he was not asked to win games like eli is. he was asked to limit mistakes (which drove BP crazy when he would be careless with the ball) and let the defense do its job. now i know the term "game manager" is looked down on, but not in my book. as simms matured, he was given more responsibility, but for much of his career he was asked to not lose the game, which is the opposite of eli.

and also, about this whole "put simms in an offense like this one or that one..." i always thought that the offense was actually tailored to what simms did well. the seam routes, and an occasional shot down field. i think the legend of simms is replacing the reality a bit in this thread

edit-by simms own admission he didnt put a lot of effort into studying tape and defenses, who knows how the offense could have looked had he mastered it like eli has

Most people know that being a "game manager" is a much more difficult way to play quarterback.

How do you think Eli would look throwing 20 passes a game, when everyone and their mother knows he has to pass?

Welcome to Bill Parcells' NY Giants.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 10:34 PM
Most people know that being a "game manager" is a much more difficult way to play quarterback.

How do you think Eli would look throwing 20 passes in a game, when everyone and their mother knows he has to pass?

Welcome to Bill Parcells' NY Giants.

you mean like 4th and 17 and the game on the line?

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 10:41 PM
??? I think Phil was a better athlete, threw a much better ball and had deadly accuracy. Last year was the first time Eli showed that he could be a decent passer. In previous years he threw his share of awful passes.
ok, we disagree. I think Eli has the much livelier arm, and moves in the pocket better than Simms. but ok.




Is that the majority opinion from people who saw both play?
I dont know, all I know is a strong majority of giants fans, old and young, consider eli the greatest giants qb of all time.



And you claim this based on what? You never saw Phil play.
I saw Phil play plenty. Eli has a much better downfield arm, and eli also can throw every route and does throw every route, whereas simms was asked to make only a certain few types of throws.


Not even close. Accuracy has never been his strong point. He's been one of the worst passers I've ever seen in that regard.
As I said, this past season, Eli has matched or even surpassed Simms accuracy. Further, completion % favors eli actually go figure.


Phil took a pounding no doubt.

,

That's speculation and not even worth a response.
I dont know how its speculation when simms has the injury history he does. just a matter of fact is all. i certainly wouldnt think simms would make it thru a game like that but ok if u feel different, cool.



Despite looking like hell during the regular season our defense stepped up big time to help win us 2 championshipd with Eli at QB.
now i have to lmao, this statement coming from the king of accusing posters that they bring something else down to prop up eli...if u have something like that to say about that defense, well lmao ok then...that defense looked like hell during the reg season AHHHHHHH HAHAHA ok sorry...



Now this is where you prove your lack of Giant knowledge. Parcells was famous for running out the clock as soon as we had a lead. Our OC hated what Parcells did to his game plans. He literally forced us to play with one hand tied behind our back. That is why Simms was labeled a game manager. But think of it this way - how easy is it to only throw the ball when the defense knows you have to throw? That's what Parcells did to the Giants offense. Bill was no TC.
Um, first, was that not the classic score line of a simms led giants team win? 17-14, 10-0, etc etc, u can make up a bogus excuse to feel better about urself, such as TC doesnt also take the foot off the pedal (LMAO) even tho TC is a BP disciple and classically always has gone into safe mode...but ok, bc I stated what actually happened with the score lines, that means I prove my lack of giants knowledge (even tho much of ur statements actually prove that but ok TC doesnt take his foot off the gas, and the score line wasnt 17-14 and 10-7 etc etc that type score line)

Are you kidding me? Besides the TE you are way off.
Again, bringing down other aspects to prop up simms are we, classic coming from u, but the giants had a great OL, great RBs that worked by committee and all did things specific to their strengths)


Who on the Giants in 1986 would have done what Plaxico did for Eli. I have a feeling a 2007 Eli would have been eaten alive.
Well, Eli has made every wr look great, not just plex. u can pigeon hole eli bc plex was his actual wr at the time and theres no way of knowing how nicks woulda stepped up etc but im confident that whatever throw simms made in any game, eli could make that same throw. the thing is, the backup qb actually did win it without simms, so surely if a backup could do it, its not a stretch to think eli could. whereas i dont think anyone would feel simms coulda done any number of things eli did that led us to both sbs.
.

Eli didn't lead anyone in 2007. He finally showed up in the playoffs.
eli led the sb winning offense and was sb mvp. but ok, fine, we'll just say the playoffs, eli showed up for both playoffs and played outta his mind with one seasn playing outta his mind included in that. he's been the leader of the highest % win team in the nfc since he became starter...


Phil didn't just win one. We destroyed everyone in our path to that Super Bowl and he went on to have one of the greatest performances by a quarterback ever.

phil, by definition, won ONE sb. if u want to change around definitions of words and reality to feel better, fine. cool with me. simms won ONE sb. eli was SB MVP TWICE.



I disagree. I think Carr is closer to Eli than you think.
which is irrelevant. The backup actually did win one of the sbs. carr didnt.


First of all there was no such thing as a QB coach on the Giants when Phil joined the team. Phil didn't start studying game film until Fassel became the QB coach in the early 90's - so let's keep things in perspective.

Secondly, Eli was given the responsibility of calling the plays at the line for a long time. So now think about all the questionable calls that had everyone screaming for Gilbride's head. In the playoff game vs the Eagles, we all went nuts when we abandoned the run when we pounding it down their throat with a lead. That wasn't Gilbride's call, that was Eli based on what he saw.

So let's keep it real. Eli may have a high football IQ but up until last year he wasn't able to translate that onto the field consistently. Eli had a great year last year - no doubt. Now let's make it two.

as i said, i think the legend is overshadowing reality. but its fine. simms is an all time great giant. and the 2nd best qb of this franchise imo. no shame being 2nd to eli with what eli has accomplished. no one is just handing that title to eli, he's earned it throughtout his career

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 10:44 PM
You are the first person in the history of Earth to refer to Phil Simms as a "game manager". It may be the most rediculous thing you have ever said on these message boards.
Phil was a true field general. He was what Parcells refered to as a "battlefield commander".
He was a leader of men. What it God's name would compel you to say this?

i say game manager, u say field general. same meaning imo. i dont think game manager is a bad thing at all. and apparently with rosies response he sees it similarily, in fact u do too by calling him field general and commander. thats what i mean when i say game manager. so i guess its not ridiculous? and i've heard so many ppl refer to him as that including BP which u even acknowledge but ok, i think this is funny. u react to statements about simms the same way eli homers respond to statements about eli... lmao

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 10:45 PM
Most people know that being a "game manager" is a much more difficult way to play quarterback.

How do you think Eli would look throwing 20 passes a game, when everyone and their mother knows he has to pass?

Welcome to Bill Parcells' NY Giants.

eh, i dunno its perspective i guess. to not turn it over and make that priority number 1 is tough i agree, but i think theres less responsibility then asking a qb to go win it

fansince69
08-13-2012, 10:45 PM
as i said, i think the legend is overshadowing reality. but its fine. simms is an all time great giant. and the 2nd best qb of this franchise imo. no shame being 2nd to eli with what eli has accomplished. no one is just handing that title to eli, he's earned it throughtout his career

you are entitled to your opinion....but at the moment the vast majority of eli lovers never saw Simms play.......all I can say is Eli has benefited from many advantages that Simms never had.

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 10:50 PM
you are entitled to your opinion....but at the moment the vast majority of eli lovers never saw Simms play.......all I can say is Eli has benefited from many advantages that Simms never had.
and eli has also faced harder adversity...also lets not sleep on the advantages simms has that eli hasnt...

i have no issue with whoever feels simms is the best all time. thats fine and respectable. i disagree and think eli is clearly the GOAT but hey if u see it different good for u.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 10:51 PM
]i think another thing is simms gave birth to the term "game manager". he was not asked to win games like eli is. he was asked to limit mistakes (which drove BP crazy when he would be careless with the ball) and let the defense do its job. now i know the term "game manager" is looked down on, but not in my book. as simms matured, he was given more responsibility, but for much of his career he was asked to not lose the game, which is the opposite of eli.

This is just nonsense. The Giants became a more conservative team on offense later on in Phil's career under Parcells. Where are you getting your info from?


and also, about this whole "put simms in an offense like this one or that one..." i always thought that the offense was actually tailored to what simms did well. the seam routes, and an occasional shot down field. i think the legend of simms is replacing the reality a bit in this thread

You never saw Simms play and you want to talk about his legend? Please.




edit-by simms own admission he didnt put a lot of effort into studying tape and defenses, who knows how the offense could have looked had he mastered it like eli has

lol. That is so foolish. They didn't study film the way they do today. Different era. Different game.

scoopscj
08-13-2012, 10:54 PM
Phil was a pretty good athlete out of college and had quite the speed and mobility. Sadly early on his knees got wrecked and he was never the same with regards to mobility.

Some key Phil Simms plays if you haven't seen him or have forgotten.

1) Once in a while he'd do a naked bootleg and not tell the offensive line what he was doing. He'd call a run to the right in the huddle, and he'd fake it and just take off left and run. The offense never knew it was coming. Great stuff. I think he called it in the SB if I'm not mistaken.

2) He'd go head to head and get in your face. One Monday Night loss he went toe to toe, face mask to face mask with Ronnie Lott screaming at him.

3) He once tried to catch a pass after he pitched it to a RB and went out into a pattern. Can you imagine Eli doing that?

4) He was deadly, DEADLY from between the 20 and 30 yard line. Great TD percentage from those hash marks.

5) His only pro bowl WR was Earnest Gray and only for a year or two.

And finally he did a workout video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlA-_rooBaM) with other NFL stars. That should cinch it for Simms. I mean, come on.... Where is the ELI aw shucks workout video?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlA-_rooBaM

fansince69
08-13-2012, 10:55 PM
and eli has also faced harder adversity...also lets not sleep on the advantages simms has that eli hasnt...

i have no issue with whoever feels simms is the best all time. thats fine and respectable. i disagree and think eli is clearly the GOAT but hey if u see it different good for u.

I can respect your and other opinions ..what I take exception to is when you use the word clearly....That is just plain disrespect to Simms...clearly does not belong in that sentance

other than media and fans what adversity has eli faced? simms went through more crap in his first few years than most

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 10:57 PM
eh, i dunno its perspective i guess. to not turn it over and make that priority number 1 is tough i agree, but i think theres less responsibility then asking a qb to go win it

Ask any QB - they want to get into a flow of passing. It's the same for RB's. They need touches. To ask a QB to put the ball on the money when they hadn't thrown the ball for a quarter is not that easy.

And let's face it, Eli put himself in a position to have to win games by disappearing for spells during the games - prior to 2011.

Roosevelt
08-13-2012, 11:03 PM
Phil was a pretty good athlete out of college and had quite the speed and mobility. Sadly early on his knees got wrecked and he was never the same with regards to mobility.

Some key Phil Simms plays if you haven't seen him or have forgotten.

1) Once in a while he'd do a naked bootleg and not tell the offensive line what he was doing. He'd call a run to the right in the huddle, and he'd fake it and just take off left and run. The offense never knew it was coming. Great stuff. I think he called it in the SB if I'm not mistaken.

2) He'd go head to head and get in your face. One Monday Night loss he went toe to toe, face mask to face mask with Ronnie Lott screaming at him.

3) He once tried to catch a pass after he pitched it to a RB and went out into a pattern. Can you imagine Eli doing that?

4) He was deadly, DEADLY from between the 20 and 30 yard line. Great TD percentage from those hash marks.

5) His only pro bowl WR was Earnest Gray and only for a year or two.

And finally he did a workout video with other NFL stars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlA-_rooBaM


How the heck do you link a website now? Sorry somebody please tell me.

Let's not forget too that every QB benefits from a good running game. It wasn't until 1985 that Simms had a 1,000 yard runner in Joe Morris. Rob Carpenter was a tremendous improvement for our running game, but in his best year he probably never rushed for 800 yards. We had so little talent on O.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 11:09 PM
Let's not forget too that every QB benefits from a good running game. It wasn't until 1985 that Simms had a 1,000 yard runner in Joe Morris. Rob Carpenter was a tremendous improvement for our running game, but in his best year he probably never rushed for 800 yards. We had so little talent on O.

Our run game was so bad we spent (wasted ) 1st round picks on Butch Woolfolk and Adams from Kentucky...drawing blank on first name...want to say George.....we also drafted Morris in same draft as Woolfolk....point is we were desperate to put any offensive weapons on the field

rebelfan1966
08-14-2012, 12:32 PM
I have to go with Jared Lorenzen..... many people felt he was better than Eli Manning and should have started.

jomo
08-14-2012, 01:09 PM
I have to go with Jared Lorenzen..... many people felt he was better than Eli Manning and should have started.lol aka the hefty lefty, the Pillsbury throwboy etc etc.

gumby74
08-14-2012, 01:17 PM
I don't understand how people can comment if they've never seen Simms play. Different era. Different rules. Different everything.

EliDaMANning
08-14-2012, 02:33 PM
Eli is better. This really shouldn't be a discussion. Eli has a chance to become of the the GOAT QB when it is all said and done.

rebelfan1966
08-14-2012, 03:16 PM
lol aka the hefty lefty, the Pillsbury throwboy etc etc.

The guy had a huge advantange.... he could throw on the passing plays, hand the ball off and block on the running plays.... he was good on short yardage..... all around athlete ... lol

jomo
08-14-2012, 03:28 PM
The guy had a huge advantange.... he could throw on the passing plays, hand the ball off and block on the running plays.... he was good on short yardage..... all around athlete ... lolAre you saying that he was well rounded?

GameTime
08-14-2012, 03:30 PM
Are you saying that he was well rounded?
and always made the "BIG" play.....

speedman
08-14-2012, 04:24 PM
I saw Simms play and he was a good QB. He's not on the same level as Eli though.