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View Full Version : Time is ticking for Jernigan.



SuperNYGiants
08-11-2012, 01:52 PM
Another muffed punt didn't help either. I'm trying my best to see good things in him, but I simply don't see it. He dropped a TD pass in the end-zone too. And he doesn't really seem to get open a whole lot as much as people say about his speed and whatnot. I'm beginning to lean towards the side that maybe he's just a good college player but not good enough for the pro game. I think he needs to have at least one good pre-season game to even have a chance to make the roster.

NYGiants2120
08-11-2012, 01:53 PM
He was mugged on the drop pass in the end zone. just saying.

Carter.525
08-11-2012, 01:53 PM
tic toc tic toc.. same with Barden

Toadofsteel
08-11-2012, 02:21 PM
At least Jernigan actually plays special teams... he's in over Barden. No way Barden makes the roster and Jernigan doesn't...

stormblue
08-11-2012, 02:22 PM
he has probably sealed his own fate with those 2 mistakes.

BROADWAYSTORM
08-11-2012, 02:27 PM
Please Jernigan is in his second season. He is a third round pick. Even if he wet Coughlin's bed he is not getting cut until at least his fourth season. If Adrian Tracy is still on this team and thankfully finally looking like a player. And if that bust Barden or that other bust, the linebacker is still around... you can forget about them cutting Jernigan. It is not the Giant way to cut young highly drafted players in their second season. Most Giants get to play out their contracts when drafted above the 4rth round.

Eli TO Shockey
08-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Please Jernigan is in his second season. He is a third round pick. Even if he wet Coughlin's bed he is not getting cut until at least his fourth season. If Adrian Tracy is still on this team and thankfully finally looking like a player. And if that bust Barden or that other bust, the linebacker is still around... you can forget about them cutting Jernigan. It is not the Giant way to cut young highly drafted players in their second season. Most Giants get to play out their contracts when drafted above the 4rth round.

+1! And you are referring to Sintim I believe

Gimaniac
08-11-2012, 02:43 PM
http://eword10.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/deer_in_headlights1.gif

NYG4lifeNYK
08-11-2012, 02:45 PM
Jernigan isn't going anywhere the time is not ticking at all, it's stopped for him.

You can tell he has talent and he probably would of caught that TD had his right arm not been pinned down. He creates separation runs good routes. I was never a fan of Jernigan maybe because he reminded us of Sinorice but he's got a alot of talent.


The muffed punts happen it's pre season and they can be easily corrected.

nYg24
08-11-2012, 02:51 PM
No its not, its his second year. He would of caught that TD if the DB wasnt holding his arm.

fansince69
08-11-2012, 02:54 PM
No its not, its his second year. He would of caught that TD if the DB wasnt holding his arm.

with missing ota's and most of training camp last year...he's really the equivalent to late in his rookie year

Same can be said of Prince only he missed all of last year camp

GameTime
08-11-2012, 03:09 PM
Please Jernigan is in his second season. He is a third round pick. Even if he wet Coughlin's bed he is not getting cut until at least his fourth season. If Adrian Tracy is still on this team and thankfully finally looking like a player. And if that bust Barden or that other bust, the linebacker is still around... you can forget about them cutting Jernigan. It is not the Giant way to cut young highly drafted players in their second season. Most Giants get to play out their contracts when drafted above the 4rth round.
Agree and to the OP the clock is not ticking on JJ.....not yet. Not even close....

RoanokeFan
08-11-2012, 03:11 PM
he has probably sealed his own fate with those 2 mistakes.

I wouldn't be too sure. The GIANTS are very patient

Buddy333
08-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Well,I guess Hosely should watch his back too then. Come on. The Giants have shown time and time again that they are patient with their drafted players.

RoanokeFan
08-11-2012, 03:17 PM
Well,I guess Hosely should watch his back too then. Come on. The Giants have shown time and time again that they are patient with their drafted players.

Plus, we have a damn good returner in Hixon if need be. I hope his hamstring is just a temporary issue

gmen46
08-11-2012, 03:23 PM
Jernigan isn't going anywhere the time is not ticking at all, it's stopped for him.

You can tell he has talent and he probably would of caught that TD had his right arm not been pinned down. He creates separation runs good routes. I was never a fan of Jernigan maybe because he reminded us of Sinorice but he's got a alot of talent.


The muffed punts happen it's pre season and they can be easily corrected.

"The muffed punts happen it's pre season and they can be easily corrected"

What a strange statement about Jernigan.

He muffed punts last pre season and it kept him off the field until late in the regular season. With the muff last night, it may appear that it can not be "easily corrected". Not saying it won't be, but "easily corrected" is a serious misstatement regarding Jernigan.

Plus. the "probably would have caught that TD had his right arm been pinned down" seems an awfully lame excuse when in the same game another WR trying to make the squad--Stanback--made his TD with his one arm tied down.

You guys are going way out of your way to justify Jernigan's lack of play making. He didn't do it--on ST or as WR--last pre season, he didn't do it last regular season, and he didn't do it last night.

Now, he does have the rest of camp and 3 more pre season games to correct this perception, true enough. But so far he has not looked like a 3rd rd pick. He can still make it, but so far this summer it's not looking good for him. He has a ton of competition from others who are also trying to make the final 53, let alone 3rd WR.

He keeps going like this and he'll be fortunate to make the Practice Squad this season.

nYg24
08-11-2012, 03:25 PM
He keeps going like this and he'll be fortunate to make the Practice Squad this season.


Wheres the red font?

Gimaniac
08-11-2012, 03:54 PM
Sinorice Jernigan will make the team, no doubt.

Giants brass will always go the extra mile for their draft picks over free agents, regardless of preseason performance.

BeatYale
08-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Well he was returning kickoffs for us in the playoffs last year. Can't say the same for someone like Barden, who doesn't contribute much as a WR and is unable to play on special teams. If the clock is ticking on anyone, it's gotta be Barden.

wuzpapn
08-11-2012, 03:58 PM
Jernigan just seems like another Sinorice. Don't see the "special" factor in him. Sorry to say.

Gimaniac
08-11-2012, 04:02 PM
Well he was returning kickoffs for us in the playoffs last year. Can't say the same for someone like Barden, who doesn't contribute much as a WR and is unable to play on special teams. If the clock is ticking on anyone, it's gotta be Barden.

I thought so too, until I seen Barden start last night. That is a statement from coaches that he is higher on the depth chart(for now).

After last night, Barden > Jernigan as a reciever.

Clearly Jernigan will not be used to return punts.

Kickoffs? Wilson did more last night in one play than Jernigan did in his time here.

So where does Jernigan contribute on special teams?

penguinfarmer
08-11-2012, 04:04 PM
Plus. the "probably would have caught that TD had his right arm been pinned down" seems an awfully lame excuse when in the same game another WR trying to make the squad--Stanback--made his TD with his one arm tied down.

You guys are going way out of your way to justify Jernigan's lack of play making. He didn't do it--on ST or as WR--last pre season, he didn't do it last regular season, and he didn't do it last night.

So your argument is because one guy made a circus catch with one arm, everyone is supposed to make the same play? It wasn't an excuse, it was a reason for what altered the look of that play. Does he make that catch? Who knows. But it's hardly a reason to blame him for not coming down with it.

You're going out of the way to condemn a WR, possibly the second hardest position on offense to transition to from college especially from the spread, after one season and one preseason game. That's beyond inane. Did you call for Manningham's head after his 4 catch rookie season?

dave56dj
08-11-2012, 04:08 PM
gmen - not to call you out but you are just wrong here and the proof will be when Jernigan not only makes the team but plays as either the 3rd wideout or 4th. The "drop" in the end zone was absolutely because his one arm was held, and yes Stanback had a magnificent one handed catch (about one or two of those is made all week and you can't really expect players do to that consistently). Jernigan ran a nice route - got open and got mugged - no call is on the replacement official - but nice chemistry with eli.

As for the muff you are dead on. Its a problem he has had in the past and had again last night. It is not easily corrected and he needs top step up fast or Coughlin will soon replace him with a vet who can get the CATCH part down - seen it before with ross blackmon and mcquarters (even though blackmon and Mcquarters muffed some too - in playoff games too mind you). Hosley would have been a huge winner had he not reopened the door with his muff.

Jernigan is a second rounder with no ota's last year. Be sure his time isn't even close to up - but he has to step it up if he wants that 3rd wr spot and right now he is just as in it as barden and randle. The bigger concern is Wilson is the kick return man in my opinion and he may be losing punt job.

Imgrate
08-11-2012, 04:09 PM
new forum. same stupid supernygiants

rainierjef
08-11-2012, 04:45 PM
Jernigan isn't going anywhere the time is not ticking at all, it's stopped for him.

You can tell he has talent and he probably would of caught that TD had his right arm not been pinned down. He creates separation runs good routes. I was never a fan of Jernigan maybe because he reminded us of Sinorice but he's got a alot of talent.


The muffed punts happen it's pre season and they can be easily corrected.
the muff punts happens in those bright stadium lights especially at night when its already hard to locate the ball and you have these 200/ 1000kw fluorescent bulbs blinding you.
i was always thought once you lose it in the lights if you absolutely cant find it get out of the way.

gmen46
08-11-2012, 04:53 PM
So your argument is because one guy made a circus catch with one arm, everyone is supposed to make the same play? It wasn't an excuse, it was a reason for what altered the look of that play. Does he make that catch? Who knows. But it's hardly a reason to blame him for not coming down with it.

You're going out of the way to condemn a WR, possibly the second hardest position on offense to transition to from college especially from the spread, after one season and one preseason game. That's beyond inane. Did you call for Manningham's head after his 4 catch rookie season?

No, that's not my argument, and no, I didn't "call for Manningham's head after his rookie season"--although some here did. And at least Manningham, also a 3rd rd pick WR, made 4 receptions his rookie year. Jernigan can't even make that claim. And he had at least a few opportunities to do so last season.

I'm saying there are several here who constantly make excuses for Jernigan when he has shown nothing--nothing--in his first year and in his first pe season game this year. He may well turn it around. Anything is possible, I suppose. But if he does, it will because he starts playing completely differently than he has up to now. It won't be due to any of the observations made by the "Jerniganites" on this board.

This message board is notorious for criticisms of any Giant player who doesn't perform at Pro Bowl level at any given time (ok, an exaggeration, but only a slight one), yet Jernigan has been allowed more excuses than an habitual truant from school.

I'm hardly "going out of the way to condemn a WR" here. I don't need to go out of the way. I'm just reacting to what I've seen from the man--which has been nothing.

BurnerNYG
08-11-2012, 05:00 PM
Eli put the ball right in his hands. Yeah they should've called a penalty but it was still a catchable ball. So far this guy is Moss part 2 ( worse than Moss ) hopefully he turns it around because I am not impressed.

fansince69
08-11-2012, 05:05 PM
Eli put the ball right in his hands. Yeah they should've called a penalty but it was still a catchable ball. So far this guy is Moss part 2 ( worse than Moss ) hopefully he turns it around because I am not impressed.

you mean he put it right in his HAND...cause he couldn't use thew second one ....you guys amaze me this is a guy( prince also) who in their rookie years had basically no training camp....you act like they should all pro and have no growing pains....maybe you guys should try playing

Toadofsteel
08-11-2012, 05:05 PM
Eli put the ball right in his hands. Yeah they should've called a penalty but it was still a catchable ball. So far this guy is Moss part 2 ( worse than Moss ) hopefully he turns it around because I am not impressed.

I'm more impressed with Jernigan than I am Barden...

BurnerNYG
08-11-2012, 05:09 PM
I'm more impressed with Jernigan than I am Barden...Barden just has a problem staying healthy, Jernigan has a problem catching. I prefer my wideouts to know how to catch but if they're always hurt they're not worth a damn either lol.

penguinfarmer
08-11-2012, 05:11 PM
No, that's not my argument, and no, I didn't "call for Manningham's head after his rookie season"--although some here did. And at least Manningham, also a 3rd rd pick WR, made 4 receptions his rookie year. Jernigan can't even make that claim. And he had at least a few opportunities to do so last season.

I'm saying there are several here who constantly make excuses for Jernigan when he has shown nothing--nothing--in his first year and in his first pe season game this year. He may well turn it around. Anything is possible, I suppose. But if he does, it will because he starts playing completely differently than he has up to now. It won't be due to any of the observations made by the "Jerniganites" on this board.

This message board is notorious for criticisms of any Giant player who doesn't perform at Pro Bowl level at any given time (ok, an exaggeration, but only a slight one), yet Jernigan has been allowed more excuses than an habitual truant from school.

I'm hardly "going out of the way to condemn a WR" here. I don't need to go out of the way. I'm just reacting to what I've seen from the man--which has been nothing.

So you're giving an exaggerated criticism to those who give exaggerated criticisms? No one has been throwing Jernigan on a pedestal in this entire thread. They're giving viable reasons for why he hasn't shown much, and exactly why he won't be cut.

So a four catch, 26 yard season is that far greater than Jernigan's? How about a 1 catch 7 yard season? Or a 2 catch, 42 yard season? I'll let you figure those out.

If you feel that Jernigan owes you something after a stunted rookie year and one preseason game, I think the err is in your expectations, not his play.

BurnerNYG
08-11-2012, 05:29 PM
you mean he put it right in his HAND...cause he couldn't use thew second one ....you guys amaze me this is a guy( prince also) who in their rookie years had basically no training camp....you act like they should all pro and have no growing pains....maybe you guys should try playingHey I gotta criticize somebody or else this board will be boring. I did play football but I quit because I wanted to chill with my hIgh school sweetheart instead. Plus I didn't wanna be a lineman.

giantsfan420
08-11-2012, 05:34 PM
"The muffed punts happen it's pre season and they can be easily corrected"

What a strange statement about Jernigan.

He muffed punts last pre season and it kept him off the field until late in the regular season. With the muff last night, it may appear that it can not be "easily corrected". Not saying it won't be, but "easily corrected" is a serious misstatement regarding Jernigan.

Plus. the "probably would have caught that TD had his right arm been pinned down" seems an awfully lame excuse when in the same game another WR trying to make the squad--Stanback--made his TD with his one arm tied down.

You guys are going way out of your way to justify Jernigan's lack of play making. He didn't do it--on ST or as WR--last pre season, he didn't do it last regular season, and he didn't do it last night.

Now, he does have the rest of camp and 3 more pre season games to correct this perception, true enough. But so far he has not looked like a 3rd rd pick. He can still make it, but so far this summer it's not looking good for him. He has a ton of competition from others who are also trying to make the final 53, let alone 3rd WR.

He keeps going like this and he'll be fortunate to make the Practice Squad this season.

ive heard nothing but great things about JJ from camp...coulda just been last night his arm was tied down. it happens. stienbachs catch was awesome, but u cant fault JJ for not making a circus catch...ur righjt tho he has 3 more weeks to earn a role

buster55
08-11-2012, 05:47 PM
Sinorice moss i have seen enough of the muffed punts get him out should be hixons job

nhpgiantsfan
08-11-2012, 06:31 PM
you mean he put it right in his HAND...cause he couldn't use thew second one ....you guys amaze me this is a guy( prince also) who in their rookie years had basically no training camp....you act like they should all pro and have no growing pains....maybe you guys should try playing

This!! He was only able to get one hand on the all because the other hand was completely held by the defender. It def should have been a flag.

GiantVibes
08-11-2012, 07:04 PM
I highly doubt Jernigan will be released any time soon. JR mentioned in the offseason they were expecting him to make a jump, and the reports out of training camp have been overwhelmingly positive.

The fact that he was targeted several times by Eli makes me think he will be productive for the Giants.

sharick88
08-11-2012, 07:07 PM
Another muffed punt didn't help either. I'm trying my best to see good things in him, but I simply don't see it. He dropped a TD pass in the end-zone too. And he doesn't really seem to get open a whole lot as much as people say about his speed and whatnot. I'm beginning to lean towards the side that maybe he's just a good college player but not good enough for the pro game. I think he needs to have at least one good pre-season game to even have a chance to make the roster.
What game were you watching? How can you go after him for that "drop"? He was obviously held. Yeah, I will agree with you about the muffed punt thing, but to get after him about that obvious PI no call is kind of silly.

giants8493
08-11-2012, 07:12 PM
"The muffed punts happen it's pre season and they can be easily corrected"

What a strange statement about Jernigan.

He muffed punts last pre season and it kept him off the field until late in the regular season. With the muff last night, it may appear that it can not be "easily corrected". Not saying it won't be, but "easily corrected" is a serious misstatement regarding Jernigan.

Plus. the "probably would have caught that TD had his right arm been pinned down" seems an awfully lame excuse when in the same game another WR trying to make the squad--Stanback--made his TD with his one arm tied down.

You guys are going way out of your way to justify Jernigan's lack of play making. He didn't do it--on ST or as WR--last pre season, he didn't do it last regular season, and he didn't do it last night.

Now, he does have the rest of camp and 3 more pre season games to correct this perception, true enough. But so far he has not looked like a 3rd rd pick. He can still make it, but so far this summer it's not looking good for him. He has a ton of competition from others who are also trying to make the final 53, let alone 3rd WR.

He keeps going like this and he'll be fortunate to make the Practice Squad this season.Your buggin bro

Toadofsteel
08-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Why is there so much hate for Jernigan who has not had that much time, yet a massive line for the Barden Love Train (BLT lol) when he's been terrible for 4 seasons?

fansince69
08-11-2012, 07:18 PM
Why is there so much hate for Jernigan who has not had that much time, yet a massive line for the Barden Love Train (BLT lol) when he's been terrible for 4 seasons?

because in his SHORT time he has made couple of ROOKIE mistakes...unlike Barden who the coaching staff doesn't even think enough of to let him attempt to touch the ball

penguinfarmer
08-11-2012, 07:23 PM
Why is there so much hate for Jernigan who has not had that much time, yet a massive line for the Barden Love Train (BLT lol) when he's been terrible for 4 seasons?

Residual Sinorice syndrome? It's like dating a girl who looks exactly like the ex that fed all your belongings into a woodchipper.

Gimaniac
08-11-2012, 07:27 PM
I highly doubt Jernigan will be released any time soon. JR mentioned in the offseason they were expecting him to make a jump, and the reports out of training camp have been overwhelmingly positive.

The fact that he was targeted several times by Eli makes me think he will be productive for the Giants.

The fact that he was targeted several times by Eli and came up empty makes me think he won't.

penguinfarmer
08-11-2012, 07:30 PM
The fact that he was targeted several times by Eli and came up empty makes me think he won't.

What's several times? The one deep TD attempt and the one pass where he had to play cornerback to keep it from being intercepted?

BlueSanta
08-11-2012, 08:40 PM
I still think Barden's chances are better than some realize. We have guys who can play slot. We have a lot of those guys. However, we are not deep at outside WRs. In fact, we are somewhat thin. Barden is a pure outside guy.

gmen46
08-11-2012, 08:59 PM
So you're giving an exaggerated criticism to those who give exaggerated criticisms? No one has been throwing Jernigan on a pedestal in this entire thread. They're giving viable reasons for why he hasn't shown much, and exactly why he won't be cut.

So a four catch, 26 yard season is that far greater than Jernigan's? How about a 1 catch 7 yard season? Or a 2 catch, 42 yard season? I'll let you figure those out.

If you feel that Jernigan owes you something after a stunted rookie year and one preseason game, I think the err is in your expectations, not his play.

My expectations of any professional WR, who's job is to catch a pass, is........OMG! ......to catch a pass.

So, you are right. It's my mistake in expecting Jernigan to catch a pass that is thrown to him, it's not Jernigan's play that is a problem.

I'm sure Eli and Gilbride and Coughlin think the same as you do. In fact, I just received a tweet from Gilbride correcting me in my expectations--he says they're way too high for Jernigan.

Gimaniac
08-11-2012, 09:03 PM
What's several times? The one deep TD attempt and the one pass where he had to play cornerback to keep it from being intercepted?

Until he shows something, he is nothing. Add to the mix that he can't catch a punt makes him even more useless.

What has he done to impress you?

radar-ray
08-11-2012, 09:09 PM
I still think Barden's chances are better than some realize. We have guys who can play slot. We have a lot of those guys. However, we are not deep at outside WRs. In fact, we are somewhat thin. Barden is a pure outside guy.I agree. In addition, Barden did play on special teams last night, for those of you that say he's not on special teams. He's just not a returner, and neither are the two who muffed the punts, if they do it again. Hixon owns the job, if he's healthy.

penguinfarmer
08-11-2012, 09:19 PM
My expectations of any professional WR, who's job is to catch a pass, is........OMG! ......to catch a pass.

So, you are right. It's my mistake in expecting Jernigan to catch a pass that is thrown to him, it's not Jernigan's play that is a problem.

I'm sure Eli and Gilbride and Coughlin think the same as you do. In fact, I just received a tweet from Gilbride correcting me in my expectations--he says they're way too high for Jernigan.

Doesn't matter that he had 4 receivers in front of him on the depth chart at all coming from a college spread? So you're lone requirement is to catch one pass. So a one catch, 7 yard rookie season is within your criteria, therefore meets your expectations? BTW, name that receiver.

penguinfarmer
08-11-2012, 09:32 PM
Until he shows something, he is nothing. Add to the mix that he can't catch a punt makes him even more useless.

What has he done to impress you?

So half of the Giants' roster is filled with nothings. Fire Reese instead. No one's said they've been impressed with him. No one is predicting him to be good. They're countering the absurd notion that his roster spot is in jeopardy based on his rookie year where he was buried back in the depth chart and ONE preseason game. What's mind boggling is what he has done for people calling for his roster spot this early.

gmen46
08-11-2012, 09:33 PM
Doesn't matter that he had 4 receivers in front of him on the depth chart at all coming from a college spread? So you're lone requirement is to catch one pass. So a one catch, 7 yard rookie season is within your criteria, therefore meets your expectations? BTW, name that receiver.

What the heck are you talking about?

penguinfarmer
08-11-2012, 09:35 PM
What the heck are you talking about?

Your cryptic baseline for keeping a WR in his second year.

Gimaniac
08-11-2012, 10:31 PM
So half of the Giants' roster is filled with nothings. Fire Reese this instead. No one's said they've been impressed with him. No one is predicting him to be good. They're countering the absurd notion that his roster spot is in jeopardy based on his rookie year where he was buried back in the depth chart and ONE preseason game. What's mind boggling is what he has done for people calling for his roster spot this early.

I'm sorry, I don't speak gibberish.

gmen46
08-11-2012, 11:13 PM
Your cryptic baseline for keeping a WR in his second year.

What's cryptic about what I've said? I'm pretty clear. Let's see a reception--any reception--from Jernigan before getting him on the final roster, shall we? He was great catching punts or kicks in the end zone, but in the field of play? Not so much. Same was true last year. What's so difficult--or "cryptic"-- about that as an expectation from a professional?

fansince69
08-11-2012, 11:35 PM
What's cryptic about what I've said? I'm pretty clear. Let's see a reception--any reception--from Jernigan before getting him on the final roster, shall we? He was great catching punts or kicks in the end zone, but in the field of play? Not so much. Same was true last year. What's so difficult--or "cryptic"-- about that as an expectation from a professional?

Any reception in the field of play?so i assume the 2 pt conversion he caught last year preseason would fulfill that requirement? right?

giantsfan420
08-11-2012, 11:41 PM
My expectations of any professional WR, who's job is to catch a pass, is........OMG! ......to catch a pass.

So, you are right. It's my mistake in expecting Jernigan to catch a pass that is thrown to him, it's not Jernigan's play that is a problem.

I'm sure Eli and Gilbride and Coughlin think the same as you do. In fact, I just received a tweet from Gilbride correcting me in my expectations--he says they're way too high for Jernigan.
dude u never commit logical fallacies dont start now. no one is saying "ur mistaken for expecting him to make the catch"...we're merely saying his arm WAS held down. do u dispute that? do u dispute that had it been a normal ref with a view of the infraction that it would have drawn a penalty? Yes, Steinbach made a tremendous catch. However, its a illogical to say JJ should also make a tremendous circus catch bc Steinbach did. Again, he hasnt really shown anything, and on an opportunity where he ran a crisp route, got on top of his defender, and put himself in the proper spot to make the grab, and the defender grabbed his arm bc he knew he was beat.
I think its a good thing Eli is targeting some of these new targets. But it could be TC/KG are asking him on the side to kinda lock into them to see what they can do...I expect JJ to make some plays and continue to get open like he has at camp and he did on that one unlucky route

giantsfan420
08-11-2012, 11:47 PM
What's cryptic about what I've said? I'm pretty clear. Let's see a reception--any reception--from Jernigan before getting him on the final roster, shall we? He was great catching punts or kicks in the end zone, but in the field of play? Not so much. Same was true last year. What's so difficult--or "cryptic"-- about that as an expectation from a professional?
i feel like someone has stolen ur identity...i have read u post how expectations needed to be tapered for Prince last season when some called for his head. Same should go for JJ. I dont think he should be held in negative light bc he didnt make any plays last season...Especially at WR.
And tbh, I always thought TC and KG had trust in him regardless bc in the SF NFC CG, when we werehaving real issues moving the ball late in the game, they actually turned to JJ on a 3rd down. It didnt work bc SF played the defense perfectly, but still that stuck out to me that they looked to him in that situation.
now i know u have also said u know the FO and staff know what they are doing and its not some mistake. Well, the coaches and FO have been adamant in singing JJ praise during camp, and they've also been adamant in saying they are gonna work him into the offense...well we can assume then, that they have good reason to do so, can't we? no one here is saying he's this new cruz, i think we're just saying give him a shot as we would any other player...

gmen0820
08-12-2012, 12:10 AM
Barden is a pure outside guy.Based on what?

gmen46
08-12-2012, 01:29 AM
Any reception in the field of play?so i assume the 2 pt conversion he caught last year preseason would fulfill that requirement? right?

So, one is all you need to think he makes the roster this year? One catch. Wow.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 01:56 AM
dude u never commit logical fallacies dont start now. no one is saying "ur mistaken for expecting him to make the catch"...we're merely saying his arm WAS held down. do u dispute that? do u dispute that had it been a normal ref with a view of the infraction that it would have drawn a penalty? Yes, Steinbach made a tremendous catch. However, its a illogical to say JJ should also make a tremendous circus catch bc Steinbach did. Again, he hasnt really shown anything, and on an opportunity where he ran a crisp route, got on top of his defender, and put himself in the proper spot to make the grab, and the defender grabbed his arm bc he knew he was beat.
I think its a good thing Eli is targeting some of these new targets. But it could be TC/KG are asking him on the side to kinda lock into them to see what they can do...I expect JJ to make some plays and continue to get open like he has at camp and he did on that one unlucky route

I'm not talking about the dropped TD. I don't care about one single play, especially in a pre season game. I'm trying to say that I have serious questions about Jernigan's ability to make the team, whereas there are those in this--and other--threads who are positive that Jernigan is this great NFL talent-in-waiting.

Well, maybe he is, I don't know. What I do know is that I have seen nothing, nada, zero, bubkis, to show anyone he has enough talent to make this team. That's all I'm saying. I have seen nothing from him--as a receiver, but more importantly as a returner (because that was promoted as a specialty of his when he was drafted, and after all, no one expected him to be the #2 or 3 receiver last year).

Have you seen anything? Has anyone? And I don't mean his potential, I mean his actual. Because in all the posts about Jernigan, especially those that disagree with my assessment of his play so far, no one has referred to anything he has done since becoming a Giant.

I don't even have a problem with his zero receptions last year, frankly. It's his complete failure to produce as a returner that I've been disgusted with. That was the one area that he was expected, and counted on, to produce his rookie year. We were in desperate need of a consistently productive returner; it was one of the reasons he was drafted by us ib the 3rd rd last year. And he couldn't even catch the ****ing ball. Multiple times. And now, again this pre season.

It doesn't even look like we'll need him as a #3 receiver. Already it's looking like Randle, Hixon, Douglas are all strong contenders for that role, with Barden, Stanback and 1 or 2 others coming from behind.

We need an ace returner. And it's looking like it will be a returner pool comprised of Wilson, Hixon, Hosley, maybe Randle. Not Jernigan.

So, where does he fit?

Look, I have no more--and no less--an idea if Jernigan will make the team than anyone on this board. But I do know that I have seen nothing at all to justify the unjustifiable. He still has done nothing.

BlueSanta
08-12-2012, 03:22 AM
[QUOTE=gmen0820;447430]Based on what?[/QUOTE

Based on the fact that you want shiftier players on the inside to take advantage of the ability to go in any direction off a cut without being limmited by the sideline and to further exploit the possible matchup vs more lumbering LB or Safety who might be covering the slot.

Based on the fact that a bigger, taller receiver is more ideal for using his body to "box out" to make those tough sideline receptions or on slant patterns.

Based on the fact that outside receivers are more likely to be in a jump ball situation. You don't see too many fade patterns run from the slot.

Based on the fact that outside WRs have to sustain run blocks for longer periods of time. Therefor you want big strong guys out there to work over the CBs.

And lastly, based on our history under this coach. We like using our big WRs on the outside.

giantsfan420
08-12-2012, 04:05 AM
[QUOTE=gmen0820;447430]Based on what?[/QUOTE

Based on the fact that you want shiftier players on the inside to take advantage of the ability to go in any direction off a cut without being limmited by the sideline and to further exploit the possible matchup vs more lumbering LB or Safety who might be covering the slot.

Based on the fact that a bigger, taller receiver is more ideal for using his body to "box out" to make those tough sideline receptions or on slant patterns.

Based on the fact that outside receivers are more likely to be in a jump ball situation. You don't see too many fade patterns run from the slot.

Based on the fact that outside WRs have to sustain run blocks for longer periods of time. Therefor you want big strong guys out there to work over the CBs.

And lastly, based on our history under this coach. We like using our big WRs on the outside.

marques colston plays primarily outta the slot. while i agree barden would be best suited on the outside but for diff reasons. i just dont think he has that shiftiness to him. if we were more of a vertical seam route team like NO, then I could see Barden being used like Colston. I also think Barden could play from the slot too...

fansince69
08-12-2012, 06:34 AM
So, one is all you need to think he makes the roster this year? One catch. Wow.

YOU are the one that said you wanted ONE reception........ I showed you one...what part of this conversation aren't you following?To answer your question ...no I do not think he deserves to make the roster based on one catch..........He deserves to make the roster because he is a second year player....that basically is maybe 2/3 of his way through his rookie year....and if you really think having no training camp does not affect the development of players like him and prince there is really no sense continuing.

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 07:52 AM
I'm not talking about the dropped TD. I don't care about one single play, especially in a pre season game. I'm trying to say that I have serious questions about Jernigan's ability to make the team, whereas there are those in this--and other--threads who are positive that Jernigan is this great NFL talent-in-waiting.
Except no one is saying he is a great NFL talent. You can quit putting words in others' mouths at any point. The original post is suggestive of the idea that Jernigan will not make the team. What you consider "proJernigan" is really just a contradiction to the absurd belief that a second year receiver drafted in the third round will be cut, because he failed in STs.


Well, maybe he is, I don't know. What I do know is that I have seen nothing, nada, zero, bubkis, to show anyone he has enough talent to make this team. That's all I'm saying. I have seen nothing from him--as a receiver, but more importantly as a returner (because that was promoted as a specialty of his when he was drafted, and after all, no one expected him to be the #2 or 3 receiver last year).
So technically, you've seen nada, zero, bubkis from the other WRs that are supposedly challenging for his spot. But of course, you will reference Julian Talley's single catch or journeyman/failed STer from previous teams Isaiah Stanback right? Which leads us to below...



I don't even have a problem with his zero receptions last year, frankly. It's his complete failure to produce as a returner that I've been disgusted with. That was the one area that he was expected, and counted on, to produce his rookie year. We were in desperate need of a consistently productive returner; it was one of the reasons he was drafted by us ib the 3rd rd last year. And he couldn't even catch the ****ing ball. Multiple times. And now, again this pre season.
Except you have used the zero reception argument against him. So either you use it or you don't. Your argument was that a 4 catch season by Manningham is substantially more than Jernigan's simply because he registered on the stat sheet. BTW, Toomer only caught one pass for 12 yards in his rookie year.



It doesn't even look like we'll need him as a #3 receiver. Already it's looking like Randle, Hixon, Douglas are all strong contenders for that role, with Barden, Stanback and 1 or 2 others coming from behind.
lol seriously? You've heard glowing practice reports of Douglas and he's a contender? Stanback has 5 charted receptions in 5 seaons. Now he's coming from behind? Barden has struggled for 3 years, now he's contending the guy who has only struggled for one?

It's easier to speak in hindsight, but Jernigan was absolutely chosen to be a receiver first. He was selected with the uncertainty of Steve Smith's knee and prior to Cruz' emergence. Teams rarely select a person that high solely for return ability. It's for what they do on offense or defense, and any return ability is supplemental.




Look, I have no more--and no less--an idea if Jernigan will make the team than anyone on this board. But I do know that I have seen nothing at all to justify the unjustifiable. He still has done nothing. Except there are members that do know definitively. He will make the team.

You're incredibly obtuse in your black/white argument of zero production which lacks any context.

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 07:56 AM
I'm sorry, I don't speak gibberish.

Right. Deflect and run.

fansince69
08-12-2012, 08:00 AM
Except no one is saying he is a great NFL talent. You can quit putting words in others' mouths at any point. The original post is suggestive of the idea that Jernigan will not make the team. What you consider "proJernigan" is really just a contradiction to the absurd belief that a second year receiver drafted in the third round will be cut, because he failed in STs.


So technically, you've seen nada, zero, bubkis from the other WRs that are supposedly challenging for his spot. But of course, you will reference Julian Talley's single catch or journeyman/failed STer from previous teams Isaiah Stanback right? Which leads us to below...



Except you have used the zero reception argument against him. So either you use it or you don't. Your argument was that a 4 catch season by Manningham is substantially more than Jernigan's simply because he registered on the stat sheet. BTW, Toomer only caught one pass for 7 yards in his rookie year.


lol seriously? You've heard glowing practice reports of Douglas and he's a contender? Stanback has 5 charted receptions in 5 seaons. Now he's coming from behind? Barden has struggled for 3 years, now he's contending the guy who has only struggled for one?

It's easier to speak in hindsight, but Jernigan was absolutely chosen to be a receiver first. He was selected with the uncertainty of Steve Smith's knee and prior to Cruz' emergence. Teams rarely select a person that high solely for return ability. It's for what they do on offense or defense, and any return ability is supplemental.


Except there are members that do know definitively. He will make the team.

You're incredibly obtuse in your black/white argument of zero production which lacks any context.


well said......I just do not understand how so many people are ready to give up on a second year guy whose rookie season was messed up because of the lock out...

Gimaniac
08-12-2012, 08:09 AM
Right. Deflect and run.

I asked you a simple question and you couldn't answer it. Your post was a mindless rant.

Hopefully for your sake you were drunk at the time.

GameTime
08-12-2012, 08:10 AM
[QUOTE=BlueSanta;447480]

marques colston plays primarily outta the slot. while i agree barden would be best suited on the outside but for diff reasons. i just dont think he has that shiftiness to him. if we were more of a vertical seam route team like NO, then I could see Barden being used like Colston. I also think Barden could play from the slot too...
what makes you think Barden can go over the middle from the slot?? If anything he shown he will not go up in traffic to make plays. If Barden ever gets his **** together he will only be good for staight ahead routes and possible fade patters. However he hasnt even shown his talent with fade patterns or back shoulder throws....

hungrrrry
08-12-2012, 08:23 AM
I have not been a believer in all the hype surrounding Jernigan since he was drafted....however, I don't believe his time is running out just yet. Regardless of the outcome of this season he will be given the benefit of the doubt and play the 2013 season as well....unless we draft or bring in another Rueban Randle or other top talent at WR.

His multiple muffed returns last year during the preseason worried me and obviously it worried him too because he is off to a bad start with those again already....weather or not he makes it in the NFL, I doubt it will be on this team but I hope I am wrong,

giantsfan420
08-12-2012, 08:32 AM
[QUOTE=giantsfan420;447492]
what makes you think Barden can go over the middle from the slot?? If anything he shown he will not go up in traffic to make plays. If Barden ever gets his **** together he will only be good for staight ahead routes and possible fade patters. However he hasnt even shown his talent with fade patterns or back shoulder throws....
actually, the limited success barden has had has been making plays in traffic and making tough catches when the defenders had great positioning...and i dunno how u came to the conclusion u did from my post. i said i believe he's better suited on the outside, but could still prob be used in the slot...

gmen0820
08-12-2012, 12:43 PM
....you want shiftier players on the inside.....bigger, taller receiver....big strong guys....big WRs on the outside.Based on the fact that Barden is big, and tall, and supposedly strong, right? That is the root of your post, correct?

FlyingTruck
08-12-2012, 01:21 PM
What clock? We keep guys around until they have absolutely proven they won't work out. Look at how long we kept Moss.

BeatYale
08-12-2012, 01:24 PM
Based on the fact that you want shiftier players on the inside to take advantage of the ability to go in any direction off a cut without being limmited by the sideline and to further exploit the possible matchup vs more lumbering LB or Safety who might be covering the slot.


What about TE's who sometimes play in the slot? They aren't the shiftiest guys on the field. A big WR would be in the same boat, if a TE can find success there - so can he.



Based on the fact that a bigger, taller receiver is more ideal for using his body to "box out" to make those tough sideline receptions or on slant patterns.


This has more to do with playing physical (tough) than size. Regardless of height, a WR can use his body to shield himself from the defender.



Based on the fact that outside receivers are more likely to be in a jump ball situation. You don't see too many fade patterns run from the slot.


The majority of the catches will all be made with feet on the ground. Jump ball situations are common in the red zone on fade routes, but for the rest of the field it's a crap shoot. A WR has to jump depending on where the ball is placed and jump ball situations are common when a WR stops his route and comes back to the ball, which can occur along the sideline or the middle of the field.



Based on the fact that outside WRs have to sustain run blocks for longer periods of time. Therefor you want big strong guys out there to work over the CBs.


Cool story bro. Run blocking is all about toughness and attitude though. A guy that can't crack the active roster by contributing on special teams in kick coverage....has a problem in that area. There's plenty of dudes that look like Tarzan and play like Jane. Barden is probably one of them. He doesn't have the toughness of a Heinze Ward (who wasn't exactly the biggest WR on the field).



And lastly, based on our history under this coach. We like using our big WRs on the outside.

Because we had Plaxico there once upon a time? Besides him all of our successful WRs have been about the average height for a WR and not considered 'big'. Coughlin used Jimmy Smith and Keenan Mccardell on the outside in Jacksonville for years, they weren't big WRs. Nicks (and Manningham) fit their mould more than Plaxico's.

Let me sum this all up. The fact is that some of the best WRs to play the game weren't tall. Being tall doesn't automatically mean a guy will be more productive on the outside. It just comes down to how good the player plays his position and uses his size (regardless of whether it's too big or too small) to his advantage.

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 01:29 PM
i stopped reading about halfway through this thread because some people are making no sense, and obviously just watch the game and see that jernigan didn't make any plays. Go back, and just watch jernigan run his routes. He was open most of the time. And to anyone saying that he should have made that one handed catch, just stop. Also, on that play, he ran a perfect route and put himself in great position for Eli's perfect pass. Watch that route, then watch all of Nicks' touchdowns where he ran the same route. Almost identical

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 01:30 PM
i stopped reading about halfway through this thread because some people are making no sense, and obviously just watch the game and see that jernigan didn't make any plays.

You give them too much credit. I think they just read the box scores after the game.

BeatYale
08-12-2012, 01:33 PM
You give them too much credit. I think they just read the box scores after the game.

I believe this is true in most cases. Sad.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 03:07 PM
YOU are the one that said you wanted ONE reception........ I showed you one...what part of this conversation aren't you following?To answer your question ...no I do not think he deserves to make the roster based on one catch..........He deserves to make the roster because he is a second year player....that basically is maybe 2/3 of his way through his rookie year....and if you really think having no training camp does not affect the development of players like him and prince there is really no sense continuing.

Yes. let's bring out the "no training camp in 2011" excuse, why don't we? Meanwhile, we had 2 undrafted rookies and 3 6th rd rookies--who suffered the same "no training camp"-- who produced a hell of a lot more in the regular 2011 season, and the post season btw, than the 3rd rd pick.

And, he should make the roster "because he's a second year player", and not because he actually made any plays? OK, sure, whatever.

Even one reception in the regular season--you know, the part of the season that counts?--in fact did elude Jernigan. So. no, referring to a 2 point conversion catch in a pre season game does not count as a "he did make 1 catch, so there". Nice try, taking an obvious, factual point and trying to confuse the issue in order to support your opinion, though.

nycsportzfan
08-12-2012, 03:11 PM
Jerrny is a beast and it'll eventually show, trust.. Hes had a great camp, and i know that has outweighed the little bit of play in 1st preseason game..

nycsportzfan
08-12-2012, 03:14 PM
Yes. let's bring out the "no training camp in 2011" excuse, why don't we? Meanwhile, we had 2 undrafted rookies and 3 6th rd rookies--who suffered the same "no training camp"-- who produced a hell of a lot more in the regular 2011 season, and the post season btw, than the 3rd rd pick.

And, he should make the roster "because he's a second year player", and not because he actually made any plays? OK, sure, whatever.

Even one reception in the regular season--you know, the part of the season that counts?--in fact did elude Jernigan. So. no, referring to a 2 point conversion catch in a pre season game does not count as a "he did make 1 catch, so there". Nice try, taking an obvious, factual point and trying to confuse the issue in order to support your opinion, though. Ur seriously not talking about othere UDF's and Rookies making more of a impact then Jerrnigan, are you? Did they have Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, and a more expierenced Ramses Barden in front of them? SHoot, even hixon was around in the very early stages of last yr.. Come on man, at least make alittle more sense.. Freaking Julio Jones wasen't gonna crack the rotation untill probably half way through last yr, and he was a top 10pick...

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 03:53 PM
Another muffed punt didn't help either. I'm trying my best to see good things in him, but I simply don't see it. He dropped a TD pass in the end-zone too. And he doesn't really seem to get open a whole lot as much as people say about his speed and whatnot. I'm beginning to lean towards the side that maybe he's just a good college player but not good enough for the pro game. I think he needs to have at least one good pre-season game to even have a chance to make the roster.

Look at how the Giants handled Sinorice Moss, Barden and Sintim . . . . no chance Jernigan gets cut this year. No chance at all.

giantsfan420
08-12-2012, 04:15 PM
Yes. let's bring out the "no training camp in 2011" excuse, why don't we? Meanwhile, we had 2 undrafted rookies and 3 6th rd rookies--who suffered the same "no training camp"-- who produced a hell of a lot more in the regular 2011 season, and the post season btw, than the 3rd rd pick.

And, he should make the roster "because he's a second year player", and not because he actually made any plays? OK, sure, whatever.

Even one reception in the regular season--you know, the part of the season that counts?--in fact did elude Jernigan. So. no, referring to a 2 point conversion catch in a pre season game does not count as a "he did make 1 catch, so there". Nice try, taking an obvious, factual point and trying to confuse the issue in order to support your opinion, though.

i dunno why you keep implying that if another player does something like make an impact with no training camp, that since JJ didn't we should denounce him...like the Stanback TD grab, its great they made an impact, that has zero bearing on JJ and its illogical to think it does. I'm keeping an open mind and am optimistic based on that route he ran and the training camp reports, if you want to write him off so be it. you arent wrong to do so, just as I'm not wrong in my stance. it remains to be seen.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 04:19 PM
Except no one is saying he is a great NFL talent. You can quit putting words in others' mouths at any point. The original post is suggestive of the idea that Jernigan will not make the team. What you consider "proJernigan" is really just a contradiction to the absurd belief that a second year receiver drafted in the third round will be cut, because he failed in STs.


So technically, you've seen nada, zero, bubkis from the other WRs that are supposedly challenging for his spot. But of course, you will reference Julian Talley's single catch or journeyman/failed STer from previous teams Isaiah Stanback right? Which leads us to below...



Except you have used the zero reception argument against him. So either you use it or you don't. Your argument was that a 4 catch season by Manningham is substantially more than Jernigan's simply because he registered on the stat sheet. BTW, Toomer only caught one pass for 12 yards in his rookie year.


lol seriously? You've heard glowing practice reports of Douglas and he's a contender? Stanback has 5 charted receptions in 5 seaons. Now he's coming from behind? Barden has struggled for 3 years, now he's contending the guy who has only struggled for one?

It's easier to speak in hindsight, but Jernigan was absolutely chosen to be a receiver first. He was selected with the uncertainty of Steve Smith's knee and prior to Cruz' emergence. Teams rarely select a person that high solely for return ability. It's for what they do on offense or defense, and any return ability is supplemental.


Except there are members that do know definitively. He will make the team.

You're incredibly obtuse in your black/white argument of zero production which lacks any context.

Wow. A complete exegesis of one of my posts. Impressive. I don't think I've ever had a response like that before. Thanks!

Now--

1) I'm critical of both. He had zero receptions and was ineffective in the return game. It's not an either/or question, unfortunately. My point is that had he done something constructive in at least one of those 2 areas of his supposed strengths, you'd have a strong argument in his defense. But he didn't, and you don't.

2) Toomer had only 1 reception of record his rookie year, but he had at least one TD on kick off or punt returns--maybe 2-- that year. And he was productive in his return game all year. See the difference?

3) The significance, if any, of other WRs fighting for a roster spot having 1, 2, 3 or so receptions in a pre season game--as opposed to Jernigan not having any--is that during the pre season games there are a precious few opportunities for any non-starter to make enough of an impression to enable coaches to make tough decisions in selecting the final 53. Therefore, it is crucial for each one to take advantage of those rare opportunities.

You seem to think that because this is only Jernigan's second year, this fact alone trumps any success by other players contending for the spot. I disagree. I disagree because there is no factual evidence to support this assumption. It is your opinion, fair enough. But that in itself has no empirical merit.

4) And yes, because I have heard "glowing reports" about Douglas from Gilbride, Ryan (WR coach) and Coughlin, I would classify him as a contender. They ought to know, since they're the ones who will make the final choices.

Also, the fact that he was deliberately held out of Friday's game because they wanted to rest his bruised quad (I believe it was a quad), instead of having him go out on it --which apparently he could have if necessary--tells me something about their opinion of his cahances of making the final squad.

5) Some comprehension of what I said is required. I never, never, said Jernigan was drafted solely or primarily as a returner. What I did say was that his return abilities, along with his receiving speed, were one of the compelling aspects of his appeal, and that since it is unusual--as you yourself contend--for a 3rd rd WR pick to be a significant contributor his rookie year, it was hoped that he would at least be able to contribute immediately as a returner with some home run ability. The fact that he was placed in the returner position his first and subsequent pre season games last year supports that contention. This not the same as suggesting JJ was drafted "solely as a returner" as you claim I say. See the difference?

6) Finally, "Except there are members that do know definitively. He will make the team.

You're incredibly obtuse in your black/white argument of zero production which lacks any context."

Really? There are members (on this board) that do know definitely Jernigan will make the team? Seriously? Are you all included in Reese/Coughlin/coaches decision making process? Wow. Impressive! If you all are that good in prognosticating the unknown, I hope you place heavy bets on Giants games. You''ll be rich as Warren Buffett!

And, of course, I'll be the first to admit I can be "obtuse" sometimes. In fact, I've gone on record in this thread admitting I have no idea for certain if Jernigan survives the cut this season. You, however, refuse to acknowledge the same uncertainty, so I'm not sure where "
obtuse" enters into this debate.

You may want look up the definition of "context", though. I've presented plenty of context for my opinions here. You just don't like the context. Not the same as lacking context.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 04:33 PM
Ur seriously not talking about othere UDF's and Rookies making more of a impact then Jerrnigan, are you? Did they have Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, and a more expierenced Ramses Barden in front of them? SHoot, even hixon was around in the very early stages of last yr.. Come on man, at least make alittle more sense.. Freaking Julio Jones wasen't gonna crack the rotation untill probably half way through last yr, and he was a top 10pick...

"Make a little more sense"? OK.

Before Game 3 vs Eagles, Cruz was not a factor yet.

Manningham missed a couple games after second half of Game 2 (which led to Cruz taking the first advantage of HIS opportunity, in fact).

Hixon was in only 1 1/2 games before going on IR.

And you really saying Barden was taking opportunities away from Jernigan? When, exactly?

Have all the faith in Jernigan, you want. More power to you. But your faith is based entirely upon his college play, not upon anything he's done as a pro.

Make sense?

gmen46
08-12-2012, 04:45 PM
i dunno why you keep implying that if another player does something like make an impact with no training camp, that since JJ didn't we should denounce him...like the Stanback TD grab, its great they made an impact, that has zero bearing on JJ and its illogical to think it does. I'm keeping an open mind and am optimistic based on that route he ran and the training camp reports, if you want to write him off so be it. you arent wrong to do so, just as I'm not wrong in my stance. it remains to be seen.

I agree, it remains to be seen. I like your optimism, it's good you have an open mind. But since this thread shows not much other true "open minds" (mine included) on this issue--and no, I don't consider those with blind faith in a player who has failed in virtually every opportunity he's had as a pro as having an open mind--I've been taking a severe position.

Again, I had no expectations of him to make any impact as a receiver last year. That's not an issue for me. It's his failure to be an effective punt or kick returner that has diminished his abilities and value to the Giants in my eyes. And he didn't do anything Friday night to change my opinion of him on that score.

The strongest argument in this thread so far for Jernigan remaining on the team is that he's in his second year. That's it. An extremely weak argument, and not very complimentary of Jernigan, frankly.

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 04:51 PM
I agree, it remains to be seen. I like your optimism, it's good you have an open mind. But since this thread shows not much other true "open minds" (mine included) on this issue--and no, I don't consider those with blind faith in a player who has failed in virtually every opportunity he's had as a pro as having an open mind--I've been taking a severe position.

Again, I had no expectations of him to make any impact as a receiver last year. That's not an issue for me. It's his failure to be an effective punt or kick returner that has diminished his abilities and value to the Giants in my eyes. And he didn't do anything Friday night to change my opinion of him on that score.

The strongest argument in this thread so far for Jernigan remaining on the team is that he's in his second year. That's it. An extremely weak argument, and not very complimentary of Jernigan, frankly.

Did he return any kicks in the SB?

gmen46
08-12-2012, 04:54 PM
Look at how the Giants handled Sinorice Moss, Barden and Sintim . . . . no chance Jernigan gets cut this year. No chance at all.

You may have a point with Moss. But that was clearly a mistake on the part of the Giants organization. He consistently had impressive pre seasons and had good practices. He even had a couple regular season TDs, with very few targets. Which was one reason why he kept returning, for 4 seasons, but to no avail each season.. But just because they made that mistake with Moss is no guarantee the same people will repeat the same mistake.

But comparing Jernigan to Barden and Sintim is invalid as a "no chance at all" argument for assuming Giants keep Jernigan, since both of them have missed substantial regular season time due to serious injuries each and every year. Jernigan does not have the same excuse for not producing.

nycsportzfan
08-12-2012, 04:59 PM
"Make a little more sense"? OK.

Before Game 3 vs Eagles, Cruz was not a factor yet.

Manningham missed a couple games after second half of Game 2 (which led to Cruz taking the first advantage of HIS opportunity, in fact).

Hixon was in only 1 1/2 games before going on IR.

And you really saying Barden was taking opportunities away from Jernigan? When, exactly?

Have all the faith in Jernigan, you want. More power to you. But your faith is based entirely upon his college play, not upon anything he's done as a pro.

Make sense? Before game 3, Cruz had all ready shown the Giants enough to keep him around on IR as a UDF for a entire season basically, just based on his tremendous upside that he showed in the preseason..lol

U absoulutley make my point by showing the depth in our WR core last yr, with Cruz having to wait untill week 3 to really start getting his chance.. what did u expect Jerrnigan to magically jump ahead of Victor Cruz who had all ready shown a tremendous amount of upside and was invested in by the giants when they held on to the guy despite him being injured for basically all of his rookie season.. And like i said, u got Mario, Nicks, Cruz, and a more expierenced Ramses Barden,a nd hixon for a short stint.. Its not like anyone else came outta nowhere and made some crazy impact that was picked up outta nowhere or drafted below Jerrnigan.. The depth chart worked out exactly how it should of .. I don't see how Jerrnigan was gonna do anything diffrently then he did last yr, as far as playing time.. He just wasen't gonna get on the field unless he had a Victor Cruz type preseason, which he obviously did not.. The guy came outta the sun belt for godsake.. Not everyone that comes outta those small school confrences are gonna make immediete contributions, and especially ones who play a positon that has Nicks, Cruz, Mario, Hixon, Barden all ready on board..lol

embeshAtYa
08-12-2012, 05:00 PM
http://eword10.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/deer_in_headlights1.gif



lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nycsportzfan
08-12-2012, 05:08 PM
"Make a little more sense"? OK.

Before Game 3 vs Eagles, Cruz was not a factor yet.

Manningham missed a couple games after second half of Game 2 (which led to Cruz taking the first advantage of HIS opportunity, in fact).

Hixon was in only 1 1/2 games before going on IR.

And you really saying Barden was taking opportunities away from Jernigan? When, exactly?

Have all the faith in Jernigan, you want. More power to you. But your faith is based entirely upon his college play, not upon anything he's done as a pro.

Make sense? Dude, its on record that Jerrnigan is having a great camp.. Also, Barden took away from Jerrnigan because Barden was ahead of him on the depth chart.. Why do u think Barden was still on the team? He was ahead of Jerrnigan obviously, which makes 100pct sense.. Why would u think Jerrnigan is just gonna fly in as a rook and unseat barden whos had yrs of time learning the play book and being absoulutley way ahead of Jerrrnigan in the ever important understanding of the offense.. Also, dude it was one presseason game, its not like Jerrnigan dosen't have plenty of more chances to do something dynamic in this preseason.. So u have a rookie yr where he was buried on the depth chart, and one preseason game this yr..lol Wow, jerrnigan sucks..(sarcasm)

gmen46
08-12-2012, 05:11 PM
Did he return any kicks in the SB?

I don't know. Did he? The fact that whether he did or not was unremarkable, unmemorable--irrelevant, even-- kind of makes my point.

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 05:12 PM
You may have a point with Moss. But that was clearly a mistake on the part of the Giants organization. He consistently had impressive pre seasons and had good practices. He even had a couple regular season TDs, with very few targets. Which was one reason why he kept returning, for 4 seasons, but to no avail each season.. But just because they made that mistake with Moss is no guarantee the same people will repeat the same mistake.

But comparing Jernigan to Barden and Sintim is invalid as a "no chance at all" argument for assuming Giants keep Jernigan, since both of them have missed substantial regular season time due to serious injuries each and every year. Jernigan does not have the same excuse for not producing.

The point is that the Giants just don't give up on high draft picks after one plus seasons Do you actually think that Jernigan will be cut?

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 05:21 PM
I don't know. Did he? The fact that whether he did or not was unremarkable, unmemorable--irrelevant, even-- kind of makes my point.

When the Giants were down 17-9, he had a huge 34 yard kickoff return that led to a FG. I guess that you didn't catch the Super Bow, huh?.

Completely undermines your claim that this first year player (he has yet to play a down in his second year) has been a "failure" in the return game.

nycsportzfan
08-12-2012, 05:21 PM
it cracks me up jerrnigan is getting all this grief all ready.. I mean, the best WR in GIANTS history "amani toomer" who was a 2nd rd pick compared to Jerny's 3rd, had 1catch as a rookie, and only 16catches in his 2nd yr..lol Thank god the giants didn't get rid of him, ey? He didn't even have a 30plus catch season untill his 4th yr in the league, and this coming from a guy who played against bigtime comp in college and was a 2nd rder, as opposed to Jerny's 3rd rder...

How about Mario Manningham? Guy had 4catches as a rookie..

How about Tiki Barber, Michael Strahan, and Osi? None of em did much early on in there careers.. Why? Becuase theres something called DEPTH, that allows players to develop some before making big contributions.. Oh ya, and Tiki, Strah, and Osi were all picked a rd earlier then Jerrnigan...

Sure, sometimes guys have big impacts early on, but thats not the norm, and usually those guys are on teams that arent all that good, and have no chocie but to play the young inexpierenced players.. Jerrnigan is fine, and isn't going anywhere, and is far off from knowing what kinda impact he can have on this team, good or bad..

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 05:27 PM
it cracks me up jerrnigan is getting all this grief all ready.. I mean, the best WR in GIANTS history "amani toomer" who was a 2nd rd pick compared to Jerny's 3rd, had 1catch as a rookie, and only 16catches in his 2nd yr..lol Thank god the giants didn't get rid of him, ey? He didn't even have a 30plus catch season untill his 4th yr in the league, and this coming from a guy who played against bigtime comp in college and was a 2nd rder, as opposed to Jerny's 3rd rder...

How about Mario Manningham? Guy had 4catches as a rookie..

How about Tiki Barber, Michael Strahan, and Osi? None of em did much early on in there careers.. Why? Becuase theres something called DEPTH, that allows players to develop some before making big contributions.. Oh ya, and Tiki, Strah, and Osi were all picked a rd earlier then Jerrnigan...

Sure, sometimes guys have big impacts early on, but thats not the norm, and usually those guys are on teams that arent all that good, and have no chocie but to play the young inexpierenced players.. Jerrnigan is fine, and isn't going anywhere, and is far off from knowing what kinda impact he can have on this team, good or bad..

You're preaching to the choir here my man!

nycsportzfan
08-12-2012, 05:33 PM
You're preaching to the choir here my man! Ya, def not aimed at u, but the people on here who seem to think Jerrnigan should of showed all this great promise all ready.. Were barley a step into his first full season of offseason workout programs and what not, and hes all ready on his way out???LMAO!

gmen46
08-12-2012, 05:43 PM
Before game 3, Cruz had all ready shown the Giants enough to keep him around on IR as a UDF for a entire season basically, just based on his tremendous upside that he showed in the preseason..lol

U absoulutley make my point by showing the depth in our WR core last yr, with Cruz having to wait untill week 3 to really start getting his chance.. what did u expect Jerrnigan to magically jump ahead of Victor Cruz who had all ready shown a tremendous amount of upside and was invested in by the giants when they held on to the guy despite him being injured for basically all of his rookie season.. And like i said, u got Mario, Nicks, Cruz, and a more expierenced Ramses Barden,a nd hixon for a short stint.. Its not like anyone else came outta nowhere and made some crazy impact that was picked up outta nowhere or drafted below Jerrnigan.. The depth chart worked out exactly how it should of .. I don't see how Jerrnigan was gonna do anything diffrently then he did last yr, as far as playing time.. He just wasen't gonna get on the field unless he had a Victor Cruz type preseason, which he obviously did not.. The guy came outta the sun belt for godsake.. Not everyone that comes outta those small school confrences are gonna make immediete contributions, and especially ones who play a positon that has Nicks, Cruz, Mario, Hixon, Barden all ready on board..lol

Fair points, but completely irrelevant to my argument.

I thought I made it clear in my previous couple posts, my issue with Jernigan has little to do with him as a receiver his rookie year. I expected very little from him as receiver last year.

It's that his best opportunity to contribute last year--and this year, frankly--was as a returner. When drafted, his returns skills were highly touted as well as his receiving skills (which was mostly his speed). And we needed a burner returner, someone who could consistently put us in favorable field position vs opponents and once or twice score a TD that could effect the game. Instead, in 2011 we scored no ST TDs, Jernigan couldn't be relied upon since he couldn't catch the dam ball, and Giants finished last (or dam close to last) in return yards and field position.

And unfortunately Jernigan has taken up where he left off, in the first game this pre season. Yeah, yeah, we've all heard how he's improved in catching punts in training camp. But any coach, especially Coughlin and Tom Quin in this case, will tell you it's one thing to do well in camp practice, and completely another to do well in a game.

All you see on this thread is how Jernrigan was mugged on his TD chance. It's true, he was. But ask yourself this. Everything else the same, if Jernigan had made that TD, what would everyone be talking about--and what would be of most concern to the coaches? HIS MUFFED PUNT.

Meanwhile, Wilson and Hosley HAVE shown they can do it on special teams. Even though Hosley muffed a punt, he countered that with a decent return. Jernigan had no positive offsets on Friday.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 06:17 PM
When the Giants were down 17-9, he had a huge 34 yard kickoff return that led to a FG. I guess that you didn't catch the Super Bow, huh?.

Completely undermines your claim that this first year player (he has yet to play a down in his second year) has been a "failure" in the return game.

Yes. you got me. One return. I guess I missed the entire SB because you say so. I am not worthy of your superior logic! The most memorable play of SB XLVI, Jernigan's return. Yes. you're right, that alone ensures his roster place. :confused:

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 06:20 PM
Wow. A complete exegesis of one of my posts. Impressive. I don't think I've ever had a response like that before. Thanks!

Now--

1) I'm critical of both. He had zero receptions and was ineffective in the return game. It's not an either/or question, unfortunately. My point is that had he done something constructive in at least one of those 2 areas of his supposed strengths, you'd have a strong argument in his defense. But he didn't, and you don't.

2) Toomer had only 1 reception of record his rookie year, but he had at least one TD on kick off or punt returns--maybe 2-- that year. And he was productive in his return game all year. See the difference?

3) The significance, if any, of other WRs fighting for a roster spot having 1, 2, 3 or so receptions in a pre season game--as opposed to Jernigan not having any--is that during the pre season games there are a precious few opportunities for any non-starter to make enough of an impression to enable coaches to make tough decisions in selecting the final 53. Therefore, it is crucial for each one to take advantage of those rare opportunities.

You seem to think that because this is only Jernigan's second year, this fact alone trumps any success by other players contending for the spot. I disagree. I disagree because there is no factual evidence to support this assumption. It is your opinion, fair enough. But that in itself has no empirical merit.

4) And yes, because I have heard "glowing reports" about Douglas from Gilbride, Ryan (WR coach) and Coughlin, I would classify him as a contender. They ought to know, since they're the ones who will make the final choices.

Also, the fact that he was deliberately held out of Friday's game because they wanted to rest his bruised quad (I believe it was a quad), instead of having him go out on it --which apparently he could have if necessary--tells me something about their opinion of his cahances of making the final squad.

5) Some comprehension of what I said is required. I never, never, said Jernigan was drafted solely or primarily as a returner. What I did say was that his return abilities, along with his receiving speed, were one of the compelling aspects of his appeal, and that since it is unusual--as you yourself contend--for a 3rd rd WR pick to be a significant contributor his rookie year, it was hoped that he would at least be able to contribute immediately as a returner with some home run ability. The fact that he was placed in the returner position his first and subsequent pre season games last year supports that contention. This not the same as suggesting JJ was drafted "solely as a returner" as you claim I say. See the difference?

6) Finally, "Except there are members that do know definitively. He will make the team.

You're incredibly obtuse in your black/white argument of zero production which lacks any context."

Really? There are members (on this board) that do know definitely Jernigan will make the team? Seriously? Are you all included in Reese/Coughlin/coaches decision making process? Wow. Impressive! If you all are that good in prognosticating the unknown, I hope you place heavy bets on Giants games. You''ll be rich as Warren Buffett!

And, of course, I'll be the first to admit I can be "obtuse" sometimes. In fact, I've gone on record in this thread admitting I have no idea for certain if Jernigan survives the cut this season. You, however, refuse to acknowledge the same uncertainty, so I'm not sure where "
obtuse" enters into this debate.

You may want look up the definition of "context", though. I've presented plenty of context for my opinions here. You just don't like the context. Not the same as lacking context.

i have a question about point #3. if he had not been held on that play in the end-zone, would you all of a sudden think that he was going to make the team because he had a 10ish yard td catch?

gmen46
08-12-2012, 06:24 PM
it cracks me up jerrnigan is getting all this grief all ready.. I mean, the best WR in GIANTS history "amani toomer" who was a 2nd rd pick compared to Jerny's 3rd, had 1catch as a rookie, and only 16catches in his 2nd yr..lol Thank god the giants didn't get rid of him, ey? He didn't even have a 30plus catch season untill his 4th yr in the league, and this coming from a guy who played against bigtime comp in college and was a 2nd rder, as opposed to Jerny's 3rd rder...

How about Mario Manningham? Guy had 4catches as a rookie..

How about Tiki Barber, Michael Strahan, and Osi? None of em did much early on in there careers.. Why? Becuase theres something called DEPTH, that allows players to develop some before making big contributions.. Oh ya, and Tiki, Strah, and Osi were all picked a rd earlier then Jerrnigan...

Sure, sometimes guys have big impacts early on, but thats not the norm, and usually those guys are on teams that arent all that good, and have no chocie but to play the young inexpierenced players.. Jerrnigan is fine, and isn't going anywhere, and is far off from knowing what kinda impact he can have on this team, good or bad..

Comparing rookie offensive skill players to rookie defensive linemen? Oooo-k.

Tiki had 136 carries and 34 receptions and 4 total TDs his rookie year. How does that make your case for Jernigan?

Toomer, as I've said a couple times now, made his mark his first 2 seasons as a returner, scoring 2-3 TDs. Again, how does that make your case for Jernigan?

If he had done what Toomer did his rookie year on special teams, I wouldn't even be having this debate.

Again, you're making my case, not yours.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 06:32 PM
i have a question about point #3. if he had not been held on that play in the end-zone, would you all of a sudden think that he was going to make the team because he had a 10ish yard td catch?

How many times must I say this?

I don't care about his WR role, last year or this per season game.

HE CAN'T BE RELIED UPON TO RETURN PUNTS OR KICKS!!! I f he can't do at the very least that, what good is he?

In just Friday's game, Randle already looks better for #3 than does Jernigan.

You, along with all the other Jerniganites, are putting all your debating eggs into that single dropped TD basket. That is irrelevant. Forget that pass. Even if he had made that TD catch, Coughlin would be seriously concerned about the punt muff. That muff would be enough to cause distrust of Jernigan whether he caught that TD or not. And if you doubt that, you haven't been paying attention these past 8 years.

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 06:48 PM
How many times must I say this?

I don't care about his WR role, last year or this per season game.

HE CAN'T BE RELIED UPON TO RETURN PUNTS OR KICKS!!! I f he can't do at the very least that, what good is he?

In just Friday's game, Randle already looks better for #3 than does Jernigan.

You, along with all the other Jerniganites, are putting all your debating eggs into that single dropped TD basket. That is irrelevant. Forget that pass. Even if he had made that TD catch, Coughlin would be seriously concerned about the punt muff. That muff would be enough to cause distrust of Jernigan whether he caught that TD or not. And if you doubt that, you haven't been paying attention these past 8 years.

lol well my question was about your point #3, which was in regard to wide receivers making the most of an opportunity with even as little as 1 catch.

also, your argument makes no sense whatsoever. so, since a wide receiver cannot field a punt, even if he is a good wide receiver, he should not make the team? i honestly am just very confused about your argument. i don't see how being a kick/punt returner correlates at all about trusting him as a football player. you do realize that catching a kick is much different than catching a pass right?

and why do you not care about his wide receiver role? if anything, you should care more about his wide receiver role if you think he cant field kicks.

is hosley going to be cut because he muffed a punt?

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 06:49 PM
1) I'm critical of both. He had zero receptions and was ineffective in the return game. It's not an either/or question, unfortunately. My point is that had he done something constructive in at least one of those 2 areas of his supposed strengths, you'd have a strong argument in his defense. But he didn't, and you don't.
I've never defended his production. Continue to overlook that I've always contested the notion that "his time is ticking". Seeing that there is a laundry list of nonproductive high draft picks kept on roster well beyond their second year, and the complimentary smaller list of waived players for non-behavioral/injury reasons, I'd say I have a very, very strong defense.



2) Toomer had only 1 reception of record his rookie year, but he had at least one TD on kick off or punt returns--maybe 2-- that year. And he was productive in his return game all year. See the difference?
Toomer returned 11 KRs for 191 yards which averages to 17.4yards per return. Jernigan returned 8 KRs for 186 yards which averages to 23.3 yards per return. See the difference?



3) The significance, if any, of other WRs fighting for a roster spot having 1, 2, 3 or so receptions in a pre season game--as opposed to Jernigan not having any--is that during the pre season games there are a precious few opportunities for any non-starter to make enough of an impression to enable coaches to make tough decisions in selecting the final 53. Therefore, it is crucial for each one to take advantage of those rare opportunities.

You seem to think that because this is only Jernigan's second year, this fact alone trumps any success by other players contending for the spot. I disagree. I disagree because there is no factual evidence to support this assumption. It is your opinion, fair enough. But that in itself has no empirical merit. Instead of second year title, how about the third round draft pick title? Refer to probability of second year/3rd round draftee of being cut from above. It has more merit than anything of which you have posted. And of course, you're neglecting the fact that these players did play collegiate football, from which staff personally chose them based on what they have seen. By being selected that high, there was a base of information available from which the organization deemed appropriate for that high of an investment. But that all gets nixed next to UDFAs right?




4) And yes, because I have heard "glowing reports" about Douglas from Gilbride, Ryan (WR coach) and Coughlin, I would classify him as a contender. They ought to know, since they're the ones who will make the final choices.

Also, the fact that he was deliberately held out of Friday's game because they wanted to rest his bruised quad (I believe it was a quad), instead of having him go out on it --which apparently he could have if necessary--tells me something about their opinion of his cahances of making the final squad.
And you have not heard positive reports for Jernigan? That's called selective reading, because they're incredibly prevalent.
For someone demanding empirical data, that is a rather baseless assumption made about Douglas. But hey, anything that keeps your act going right?



5) Some comprehension of what I said is required. I never, never, said Jernigan was drafted solely or primarily as a returner. What I did say was that his return abilities, along with his receiving speed, were one of the compelling aspects of his appeal, and that since it is unusual--as you yourself contend--for a 3rd rd WR pick to be a significant contributor his rookie year, it was hoped that he would at least be able to contribute immediately as a returner with some home run ability. The fact that he was placed in the returner position his first and subsequent pre season games last year supports that contention. This not the same as suggesting JJ was drafted "solely as a returner" as you claim I say. See the difference?
I never spoke on your behalf saying he was drafted solely as a returner. That's your job to speak for other people. I'm agreeing that he has been unsuccessful in STs. However, his value on the offense carries far more weight than for his struggles on STs for him to be written off the final 53. I'd say, the fact he got first team reps is far more telling than any other receiver, including your pet, Douglas.




6) Finally, "Except there are members that do know definitively. He will make the team.

You're incredibly obtuse in your black/white argument of zero production which lacks any context."

Really? There are members (on this board) that do know definitely Jernigan will make the team? Seriously? Are you all included in Reese/Coughlin/coaches decision making process? Wow. Impressive! If you all are that good in prognosticating the unknown, I hope you place heavy bets on Giants games. You''ll be rich as Warren Buffett!

And, of course, I'll be the first to admit I can be "obtuse" sometimes. In fact, I've gone on record in this thread admitting I have no idea for certain if Jernigan survives the cut this season. You, however, refuse to acknowledge the same uncertainty, so I'm not sure where "
obtuse" enters into this debate.

You may want look up the definition of "context", though. I've presented plenty of context for my opinions here. You just don't like the context. Not the same as lacking context.

All contextual tidbits that you conveniently and deliberately overlook when hanging on to the number zero.
1. High draft picks don't get cut in their second year for lack of production.
2. He was playing behind four WRs all season long.
3. The WR position is one of the hardest to transition to from the collegiate level, especially when coming from the spread. It is often thought of a three year plan.
4. The Giants read and react offense is incredibly complex. It only took Manningham 4 years to not learn it. Opportunities were never going to just be handed to him.

These are not excuses. They are reasons.

The statements of security are based on odds and precedent. And again, just name ONE, yes the magical ONE, third round receiver that was cut in his second year for nonproductive reasons.

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 06:54 PM
i am very intrigued about jernigan, and by no means a fan of his or hoping he gets the #3 spot. i personally like reuben randle better. but i watched every route of jernigans on friday that i could see on the tv screen. he was open a good amount of the time. he was usually the #2 or #3 read though, and was not passed to often. this was not because he was not open, but because the earlier reads were open.

i could care less that he muffed the kick. if wilson or hosley or hixon or anyone else can return kicks, great. jernigan is a wide receiver, and has been looking good as a wide receiver. he will not be cut. not only will he not be cut because he is a high pick (which is true), but he will not be cut because he is doing very well so far this year

gmen46
08-12-2012, 07:10 PM
lol well my question was about your point #3, which was in regard to wide receivers making the most of an opportunity with even as little as 1 catch.

also, your argument makes no sense whatsoever. so, since a wide receiver cannot field a punt, even if he is a good wide receiver, he should not make the team? i honestly am just very confused about your argument. i don't see how being a kick/punt returner correlates at all about trusting him as a football player. you do realize that catching a kick is much different than catching a pass right?

and why do you not care about his wide receiver role? if anything, you should care more about his wide receiver role if you think he cant field kicks.

is hosley going to be cut because he muffed a punt?

Yes. you clearly are confused.

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 07:11 PM
Yes. you clearly are confused.

so don't answer any of my questions?

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 07:15 PM
Yes. you got me. One return. I guess I missed the entire SB because you say so. I am not worthy of your superior logic! The most memorable play of SB XLVI, Jernigan's return. Yes. you're right, that alone ensures his roster place. :confused:

I guess that you were studying your dictionary that day instead of watching the Super Bowl.

Where did I say that the Super Bowl insures his roster space? You said that he has been a failure as a returner and you are wrong. End of story.

BurnerNYG
08-12-2012, 07:18 PM
Jernigan is gonna get his chances but if he doesn't break those jitters the organization is gonna move on. Nobody has time for a scared player.

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 07:18 PM
His shtick is folding. So now comes the sarcasm, deflection and misplaced focus of his retorts.

BurnerNYG
08-12-2012, 07:21 PM
Cruz steppIng up eliminated our need for Jernigan but since he was a high draft pick we WILL give him a chance. My 2 cents.

Shockeystays08
08-12-2012, 07:36 PM
That statement is so close minded and off base.I don't have to tell you why though. Thank goodness there's a bunch of GFans who have already explained that to you. JJ will make the team and contribute significantly, mark it down!

BurnerNYG
08-12-2012, 07:39 PM
That statement is so close minded and off base.I don't have to tell you why though. Thank goodness there's a bunch of GFans who have already explained that to you. JJ will make the team and contribute significantly, mark it down!We're all hoping he does... even the people who aren't big fans of his at the moment. He needs to step his f'n game up!!!

buster55
08-12-2012, 07:45 PM
Agree with last statement I think we all want Jerrigan to contribute and make plays but tired of hearing how good he looks in camp and start showing it on the field in game situations were it counts. And that goes for Herz as well.

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 07:47 PM
How many times must I say this?

I don't care about his WR role, last year or this per season game.

HE CAN'T BE RELIED UPON TO RETURN PUNTS OR KICKS!!! I f he can't do at the very least that, what good is he?

In just Friday's game, Randle already looks better for #3 than does Jernigan.

You, along with all the other Jerniganites, are putting all your debating eggs into that single dropped TD basket. That is irrelevant. Forget that pass. Even if he had made that TD catch, Coughlin would be seriously concerned about the punt muff. That muff would be enough to cause distrust of Jernigan whether he caught that TD or not. And if you doubt that, you haven't been paying attention these past 8 years.

Given the fact that you did not even know that Jernigan had a key return in the Super Bowl, you have absolutely zero credibilty in any discussion concerning his kick return abilities.

TC mistrusted him so much after his preseason drops last year, that he let him return kicks in the Super Bowl.

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 07:48 PM
Agree with last statement I think we all want Jerrigan to contribute and make plays but tired of hearing how good he looks in camp and start showing it on the field in game situations were it counts. And that goes for Herz as well.

did you watch the game? not being sarcastic or condescending, its a serious question

buster55
08-12-2012, 08:03 PM
Watch the game and listened to what Banks was saying about Herz and still think his play was average, I also think Prince looked dazed and confused with coverage and was late in responding to plays even with the strip. And Jones and Playsinger missed tackles. JJ muffed another punt and Hosley ruined his performance which was solid when his muffed his punt.Thats what I saw. I want all of our players to contribute and play well but tired of hearing about performance in camp.

RoanokeFan
08-12-2012, 08:11 PM
I thought so too, until I seen Barden start last night. That is a statement from coaches that he is higher on the depth chart(for now).

After last night, Barden > Jernigan as a reciever.

Clearly Jernigan will not be used to return punts.

Kickoffs? Wilson did more last night in one play than Jernigan did in his time here.

So where does Jernigan contribute on special teams?

Barden still has to prove he can play during the regular season.

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 08:14 PM
Watch the game and listened to what Banks was saying about Herz and still think his play was average, I also think Prince looked dazed and confused with coverage and was late in responding to plays even with the strip. And Jones and Playsinger missed tackles. JJ muffed another punt and Hosley ruined his performance which was solid when his muffed his punt.Thats what I saw. I want all of our players to contribute and play well but tired of hearing about performance in camp.

yeah i agree that hearing it in camp is one thing, but these guys need to start performing in the games. i didn't see much from hosley on defense, and agree that the muffed punt leaves a bad impression, and impressions are everything. prince looked OK to me, had some nice coverages and some poor coverages. JJ did have the muffed punt, but his play at wide receiver looked solid to me. i guess we have varying opinions on this, and i respect yours. to me, he looked very confident in his route running, and i think playing w eli he would be able to be a solid #3 guy, unless someone else claims the spot of course. i completely disagree with herzlich. i watched him the whole game, and am extremely impressed with what i saw. he looked above average in coverage (not great, but definitely better than what we have had in blackburn and antonio pierce). he was very promising in run support. he shot through the line extremely well, played his gaps well and shedded well. but again, opinions are opinions

RoanokeFan
08-12-2012, 08:15 PM
How many times must I say this?

I don't care about his WR role, last year or this per season game.

HE CAN'T BE RELIED UPON TO RETURN PUNTS OR KICKS!!! I f he can't do at the very least that, what good is he?

In just Friday's game, Randle already looks better for #3 than does Jernigan.

You, along with all the other Jerniganites, are putting all your debating eggs into that single dropped TD basket. That is irrelevant. Forget that pass. Even if he had made that TD catch, Coughlin would be seriously concerned about the punt muff. That muff would be enough to cause distrust of Jernigan whether he caught that TD or not. And if you doubt that, you haven't been paying attention these past 8 years.

Barden can't play STs and he's still here.

ELIte4MVP
08-12-2012, 08:17 PM
Barden can't play STs and he's still here.

stop stating facts, you're making too much sense!

gmen46
08-12-2012, 08:18 PM
I've never defended his production. Continue to overlook that I've always contested the notion that "his time is ticking". Seeing that there is a laundry list of nonproductive high draft picks kept on roster well beyond their second year, and the complimentary smaller list of waived players for non-behavioral/injury reasons, I'd say I have a very, very strong defense.


Toomer returned 11 KRs for 191 yards which averages to 17.4yards per return. Jernigan returned 8 KRs for 186 yards which averages to 23.3 yards per return. See the difference?

Instead of second year title, how about the third round draft pick title? Refer to probability of second year/3rd round draftee of being cut from above. It has more merit than anything of which you have posted. And of course, you're neglecting the fact that these players did play collegiate football, from which staff personally chose them based on what they have seen. By being selected that high, there was a base of information available from which the organization deemed appropriate for that high of an investment. But that all gets nixed next to UDFAs right?



And you have not heard positive reports for Jernigan? That's called selective reading, because they're incredibly prevalent.
For someone demanding empirical data, that is a rather baseless assumption made about Douglas. But hey, anything that keeps your act going right?


I never spoke on your behalf saying he was drafted solely as a returner. That's your job to speak for other people. I'm agreeing that he has been unsuccessful in STs. However, his value on the offense carries far more weight than for his struggles on STs for him to be written off the final 53. I'd say, the fact he got first team reps is far more telling than any other receiver, including your pet, Douglas.



All contextual tidbits that you conveniently and deliberately overlook when hanging on to the number zero.
1. High draft picks don't get cut in their second year for lack of production.
2. He was playing behind four WRs all season long.
3. The WR position is one of the hardest to transition to from the collegiate level, especially when coming from the spread. It is often thought of a three year plan.
4. The Giants read and react offense is incredibly complex. It only took Manningham 4 years to not learn it. Opportunities were never going to just be handed to him.

These are not excuses. They are reasons.

The statements of security are based on odds and precedent. And again, just name ONE, yes the magical ONE, third round receiver that was cut in his second year for nonproductive reasons.

To your points--

1) Yes, some do. See below.

2) What fourth WR was Jernigan "playing behind all year long"? Were 3 ahead of him? Yes. Were 4? "All year"? No.

3) Well, a two year plan, anyway. Counting on nothing from a 3rd round WR for three years is quite a stertch.

4) Yes, Gilbride's offense has been documented as being complex, you're correct. But your Manningham remark, though I'm sure was a weak attempt at humor, is completely off. He was a highly productive #3, and at times #2, Wr for us his 2nd-4th years., coming damn near 1000 yds in 2010.

Sorry, Charly, but since very little of the above is fact, these are excuses, not reasons/

Lastly--

"just name ONE, yes the magical ONE, third round receiver that was cut in his second year for nonproductive reasons"

1) Cody Brown, drafted 2nd round in 2009, by Arizona, was released 2010

Is 2nd round too high for you, so you won't count it?

How about--

2) WR Juaquin Iglesias, drafted 3rd round in 2009, by the Bears,didn't make active roster in 2010.

3) QB Pat White, drafted 2nd round in 2009 by Dolphins, cut 2010
WR Patrick Turner, drafted 3rd round (!!:biggrin:) in 2009 by Dolphins, cut 2010

4) G Kraig Urbick, drafted 3rd round in 2009 by Steelers, cut 2010

5) LB Tyrone McKenzie, drafted 3rd round in 2009 by Patriots, cut 2010

Five third rounders--including 2 WRs, not 1--and a 2nd rounder. And that was just in ONE year. All cut their 2nd year.

Oh yes, what are the odds and precedent for that?

GMENAGAIN
08-12-2012, 08:23 PM
To your points--

1) Yes, some do. See below.

2) What fourth WR was Jernigan "playing behind all year long"? Were 3 ahead of him? Yes. Were 4? "All year"? No.

3) Well, a two year plan, anyway. Counting on nothing from a 3rd round WR for three years is quite a stertch.

4) Yes, Gilbride's offense has been documented as being complex, you're correct. But your Manningham remark, though I'm sure was a weak attempt at humor, is completely off. He was a highly productive #3, and at times #2, Wr for us his 2nd-4th years., coming damn near 1000 yds in 2010.

Sorry, Charly, but since very little of the above is fact, these are excuses, not reasons/

Lastly--

"just name ONE, yes the magical ONE, third round receiver that was cut in his second year for nonproductive reasons"

1) Cody Brown, drafted 2nd round in 2009, by Arizona, was released 2010

Is 2nd round too high for you, so you won't count it?

How about--

2) Juaquin Iglesias, drafted 3rd round in 2009, by the Bears,didn't make active roster in 2010.

3) QB Pat White, drafted 2nd round in 2009 by Dolphins, cut 2010
WR Patrick Turner, drafted 3rd round (!!:biggrin:) in 2009 by Dolphins, cut 2010

4) G Kraig Urbick, drafted 3rd round in 2009 by Steelers, cut 2010

5) LB Tyrone McKenzie, drafted 3rd round in 2009 by Patriots, cut 2010

Four third rounders--including 2 WRs, not 1--and a 2nd rounder. And that was just in ONE year. All cut their 2nd year.

Oh yes, what are the odds and precedent for that?

Eh, how about the Giants' third round or better receiver who was cur before the start of his second season for non-productive reasons???

FYI - you are making a complete fool of yourself.

BurnerNYG
08-12-2012, 08:25 PM
yeah i agree that hearing it in camp is one thing, but these guys need to start performing in the games. i didn't see much from hosley on defense, and agree that the muffed punt leaves a bad impression, and impressions are everything. prince looked OK to me, had some nice coverages and some poor coverages. JJ did have the muffed punt, but his play at wide receiver looked solid to me. i guess we have varying opinions on this, and i respect yours. to me, he looked very confident in his route running, and i think playing w eli he would be able to be a solid #3 guy, unless someone else claims the spot of course. i completely disagree with herzlich. i watched him the whole game, and am extremely impressed with what i saw. he looked above average in coverage (not great, but definitely better than what we have had in blackburn and antonio pierce). he was very promising in run support. he shot through the line extremely well, played his gaps well and shedded well. but again, opinions are opinionsBetter than Pierce??? I wouldn't say all that... not yet. Herz does stay around the ball but I wanna see more tackles (not 1/2 tackles), more pressure, more tips, more strips and more int's before I say he's better than Pierce. You got a short memory... geez.

buster55
08-12-2012, 08:27 PM
Elite4MVP i respect your opinion as well you made some good points about Herz but I guess I'm thinking too much of the days of Carson in the middle or even Gary Reasons. Playing in the middle you have to do more than cover. Agree? I just want to see more from him and believe me he has a great story and I want him to be a STUD in the middle.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 08:27 PM
so don't answer any of my questions?

Because they don't pertain to my comments. They ignore them and create questions not relevant to them.

rainierjef
08-12-2012, 08:40 PM
you guys have to let go of this muff punt stuff, i understand it sucks i know TC is upset about it and trust me they will be fielding balls all week so that it doesn't happen again. i don't know if the giants have night practices where they can practice locating the ball out of the dark with almost blinding lights in your face. trust me on this but for me i don't know about anybody else that have played and returned punts for their team but when i played it was easier to locate the ball during a day game than a night game with all the lights from every corner in my face.

its not like jerrnigan and hosley had muffs by themselves the other team muffed some as well. its pre-season this stuff gets ironed out

RoanokeFan
08-12-2012, 08:45 PM
It's not a good couple of days for Jernigan, he muffed a punt in today's practice.

He needs to get it figured out

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 08:45 PM
To your points--

1) Yes, some do. See below.

2) What fourth WR was Jernigan "playing behind all year long"? Were 3 ahead of him? Yes. Were 4? "All year"? No.

3) Well, a two year plan, anyway. Counting on nothing from a 3rd round WR for three years is quite a stertch.

4) Yes, Gilbride's offense has been documented as being complex, you're correct. But your Manningham remark, though I'm sure was a weak attempt at humor, is completely off. He was a highly productive #3, and at times #2, Wr for us his 2nd-4th years., coming damn near 1000 yds in 2010.

Sorry, Charly, but since very little of the above is fact, these are excuses, not reasons/

Lastly--

"just name ONE, yes the magical ONE, third round receiver that was cut in his second year for nonproductive reasons"

1) Cody Brown, drafted 2nd round in 2009, by Arizona, was released 2010

Is 2nd round too high for you, so you won't count it?

How about--

2) WR Juaquin Iglesias, drafted 3rd round in 2009, by the Bears,didn't make active roster in 2010.

3) QB Pat White, drafted 2nd round in 2009 by Dolphins, cut 2010
WR Patrick Turner, drafted 3rd round (!!:biggrin:) in 2009 by Dolphins, cut 2010

4) G Kraig Urbick, drafted 3rd round in 2009 by Steelers, cut 2010

5) LB Tyrone McKenzie, drafted 3rd round in 2009 by Patriots, cut 2010

Five third rounders--including 2 WRs, not 1--and a 2nd rounder. And that was just in ONE year. All cut their 2nd year.

Oh yes, what are the odds and precedent for that?

1. I did say smaller complimentary list. And you've proven me right.

2. Hakeem, Manningham, Cruz, Hixon in the preseason, and Devin Thomas were ahead of him. Actually throw Ramses Barden in there too. So technically I was incorrect. It was more than 4.

3. And how long did it take Manningham to be productive? Of course, his 4 catch rookie year counts as productive because of.. well... 4 catches. Point was, his opportunities were limited being a spread WR coming to a read and react offense.

4. I'm glad I was able to bait you into looking that up. How long did that take you? Five examples [two for WR] in a 32team draft round in 5 years and the odds and precedent are in your favor? Sinorice, Carter and Ramses don't count right?

BTW, Brown was IR'ed his rookie year in the preseason. And Iglesias was released because of new OC Mike Martz that year. But again, their contextual situations don't matter.

juice33s
08-12-2012, 08:47 PM
you guys have to let go of this muff punt stuff, i understand it sucks i know TC is upset about it and trust me they will be fielding balls all week so that it doesn't happen again. i don't know if the giants have night practices where they can practice locating the ball out of the dark with almost blinding lights in your face. trust me on this but for me i don't know about anybody else that have played and returned punts for their team but when i played it was easier to locate the ball during a day game than a night game with all the lights from every corner in my face.

its not like jerrnigan and hosley had muffs by themselves the other team muffed some as well. its pre-season this stuff gets ironed out
Well he also had the same problem last preseason, so I don't think the lights are solely to blame. Also it doesn't help his chances that we have the franchises most reliable returner since Dave Meggett waiting in the wings in Hixon.

rainierjef
08-12-2012, 08:54 PM
Well he also had the same problem last preseason, so I don't think the lights are solely to blame. Also it doesn't help his chances that we have the franchises most reliable returner since Dave Meggett waiting in the wings in Hixon.
i hear ya.
i'm just sayini think he can be a solid Slot receiver, its unfair to base his overall game on just punt returning, maybe its time to scrap the JJ12 = PH12 ( percy harvin ) experiment and try other guys and let him focus on being a receiver / gunner on special teams
just a thought

gmen46
08-12-2012, 08:59 PM
We're all hoping he does... even the people who aren't big fans of his at the moment. He needs to step his f'n game up!!!

Most accurate comment on this subject.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 09:08 PM
Given the fact that you did not even know that Jernigan had a key return in the Super Bowl, you have absolutely zero credibilty in any discussion concerning his kick return abilities.

TC mistrusted him so much after his preseason drops last year, that he let him return kicks in the Super Bowl.

If only you held Jernigan to the same standard of "credibility" you seem to hold me--he gets a pass because he had 1 return that made no impression on me, but I don't because I forgot he had one return--we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 09:17 PM
If only you held Jernigan to the same standard of "credibility" you seem to hold me--he gets a pass because he had 1 return that made no impression on me, but I don't because I forgot he had one return--we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

Actually, he he had 3 returns on 4 plays, the other a touchback.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 09:21 PM
Barden can't play STs and he's still here.

True. That's a puzzlement. However, it seemed apparent from his rookie year, Coughlin was willing to give Barden a virtual pass on special teams. He's never made the big deal about it (lack of ST contribution) concerning Barden--at least from what I've seen and heard--as he has with nearly every other rookie (except Eli of course).

Then there's the issue that every year Barden looks to make some steps forward in his receiving, but then gets injured for the year, or a major part of it, and he has to start all over again.

Jernigan, on the other hand, was clearly expected to contribute in the return game, in part because that was a successful component of his college game, and because we were desperate for it.

This year Wilson, who also had some returns in college on his resume, has already--in 1 game--shown us what Jernigan has not been able to, yet, after 5 pre season games and most of the regular 2011 season.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 09:28 PM
Eh, how about the Giants' third round or better receiver who was cur before the start of his second season for non-productive reasons???

FYI - you are making a complete fool of yourself.

Really? Now you, not the poster to whom I'm responding, gets to restate the original question? Now the criterion must be only Giants who cut players and when?

Who made you hall monitor?

Read the original question. Then read my answer.

And I'm the one making a complete fool of myself?

penguinfarmer
08-12-2012, 09:36 PM
Really? Now you, not the poster to whom I'm responding, gets to restate the original question? Now the criterion must be only Giants who cut players and when?

Who made you hall monitor?

Read the original question. Then read my answer.

And I'm the one making a complete fool of myself?

It's an open forum. Everyone is free to see and remark on how inane your rigid criteria is.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 09:43 PM
you guys have to let go of this muff punt stuff, i understand it sucks i know TC is upset about it and trust me they will be fielding balls all week so that it doesn't happen again. i don't know if the giants have night practices where they can practice locating the ball out of the dark with almost blinding lights in your face. trust me on this but for me i don't know about anybody else that have played and returned punts for their team but when i played it was easier to locate the ball during a day game than a night game with all the lights from every corner in my face.

its not like jerrnigan and hosley had muffs by themselves the other team muffed some as well. its pre-season this stuff gets ironed out

First--you do have the best sig --certainly the most clever--on this new message board,

Second. I agree with all your points concerning catching punts and/or kicks. I have always considered punt returner as the 2nd most difficult--certainly mostdangerous-- position in the team. Second to QB. They have to not only look up into the sun (at times) or the lights, but must have max concentration and coordination while being aware of 200-270 pound dudes speeding downfield with only 1 thing in mind--to stop you in your tracks, or to separate the ball from you as soon as you touch the ball.

But, in this case, Jernigan was billed as being good at it when he was drafted. He has not been. That's a problem, and not just for the Giants. If he ultimately cannot correct his errors, the Giants will move on (as they may have already, with Hixon, Wilson, and maybe even Randle and/or Hosley).

But if they do move on, that's not good for Jernigan, as that means one important area where he could have been a significant contributor is taken from him.

Neverend
08-12-2012, 09:45 PM
Well, even if Jernigan stinks it up the rest of the preseason, I still think he'll have a spot on the roster. Not the giants style to give up on a player in his 2nd year drafted rather early. Might be in the doghouse throughout the regular season if he keeps muffing these punts and have yet to record one darn reception in the nfl

giantsfan420
08-12-2012, 09:49 PM
is this thread still going on? it was clear on page 5 that gmen46 is stating his opinion. his pov does have logic to it. i personally disagree, but I'm not going to make it my mission to make him change his stance. both sides to the JJ topic have points that have merit. im not saying to end the discussion or anything, but it seems to me itd be more productive if people tried to see it from the others perspective, and respect the differences of opinion if it exists.

titwio
08-12-2012, 10:05 PM
...............

This is my first time seeing your sig. Just wanted to say....55

Gimaniac
08-12-2012, 10:06 PM
Barden still has to prove he can play during the regular season.

Barden and Jerell Drop-again will be on the bench during the regular season.

Hard to prove anything from there.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 10:07 PM
1. I did say smaller complimentary list. And you've proven me right.

2. Hakeem, Manningham, Cruz, Hixon in the preseason, and Devin Thomas were ahead of him. Actually throw Ramses Barden in there too. So technically I was incorrect. It was more than 4.

3. And how long did it take Manningham to be productive? Of course, his 4 catch rookie year counts as productive because of.. well... 4 catches. Point was, his opportunities were limited being a spread WR coming to a read and react offense.

4. I'm glad I was able to bait you into looking that up. How long did that take you? Five examples [two for WR] in a 32team draft round in 5 years and the odds and precedent are in your favor? Sinorice, Carter and Ramses don't count right?

BTW, Brown was IR'ed his rookie year in the preseason. And Iglesias was released because of new OC Mike Martz that year. But again, their contextual situations don't matter.

1) I don't follow.

2) You said originally "all season". Not " all pre season". You don't get to change the rules mid stream by re-editing your questions to rebut my rebuttals. Hixon was out for the season by halftime of Game 2. Manningham missed a total of 4 games last year, so, again, not all season was he ahead of Jernigan potentially. Devin Thomas was ahead of no one as WR, as much as you would like to say so to shore up your incorrect assertion. Barden was on PUP for the first 6 weeks and did not become active until 2 weeks later; he missed 8 games. So, yet again, he was not one of "4 ahead of Jernigan all season long". Not only were you "technically" incorrect, you are in fact incorrect.

3) As I said, Manningham became productive his second season forward. Your point is...?

4) Not really a bait. I was curious myself. It took 2 minutes (Google, friend, remember?). And no, it was not five examples in a 5 year period, it was five 3rd rounders and 1 2nd rounder in just one season's draft. I did not look up other years, because that was not your question--and because that would be baiting.

You asked for one, I provided much more than one. And now you want to change the rules again. You asked, I answered.

And, no, their "contextual situations" don't matter. Brown was healthy and in camp good to go his second year. (Hmmm. Looks like you were the one baited here. I'm sure you did not know about Brown off the top of your head. UNless you're a secret Cardinals fan, of course, in which case more power to you).

He was not released because of health.

And a new OC matters regarding Iglasias because why? That happens every year with many teams. They don't use that as excuse to cut a second year player, or else young high draft picks would be cut in droves. You are getting worn down, friend. Exhaustion is setting in?

BurnerNYG
08-12-2012, 10:28 PM
This is my first time seeing your sig. Just wanted to say....55Yeah that Sig is a good one.

gmen46
08-12-2012, 10:28 PM
It's an open forum. Everyone is free to see and remark on how inane your rigid criteria is.

Open forum does not mean that a second poster gets to reframe the question from the first poster in order to deny a legitimate response to the first poster.

You asked me a specific question and I answered it in good faith. You don't like my answer, fair enough. That's the "open" part of this forum.

It does not mean a third poster gets to come in and change the question after the answer. I would think that's Forum 101.

BurnerNYG
08-12-2012, 10:30 PM
Most accurate comment on this subject.Thanks.........

gmen46
08-12-2012, 10:30 PM
is this thread still going on? it was clear on page 5 that gmen46 is stating his opinion. his pov does have logic to it. i personally disagree, but I'm not going to make it my mission to make him change his stance. both sides to the JJ topic have points that have merit. im not saying to end the discussion or anything, but it seems to me itd be more productive if people tried to see it from the others perspective, and respect the differences of opinion if it exists.

Thread killer :(

nycisgreat
08-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Another muffed punt didn't help either. I'm trying my best to see good things in him, but I simply don't see it. He dropped a TD pass in the end-zone too. And he doesn't really seem to get open a whole lot as much as people say about his speed and whatnot. I'm beginning to lean towards the side that maybe he's just a good college player but not good enough for the pro game. I think he needs to have at least one good pre-season game to even have a chance to make the roster.

I would have to agree. He really hasn't shown anything. I am hoping he does well next week for his sake.

gmen46
08-13-2012, 12:01 AM
My work is done here.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 04:28 AM
[QUOTE=BlueSanta;447480]

marques colston plays primarily outta the slot. while i agree barden would be best suited on the outside but for diff reasons. i just dont think he has that shiftiness to him. if we were more of a vertical seam route team like NO, then I could see Barden being used like Colston. I also think Barden could play from the slot too...

Colston is the exception, not the rule. Plus, he does play outside a lot more then people acknowledge. In fact, on most 2 wrs sets he is outside.

Barden is an outside guy. Sure, occasionally all guys get motioned into slot positions. But, he was drafted to play outside and that is where we have used him. Again, we have a ton of guys who are slot guys, not to mention the best slot guy in the NFL last year(Cruz).

I still say he is a pure outside guy. You can argue that, but that doesnt suddenly make him something else. When we start using him in another capacity then we can talk.

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=giantsfan420;447492]

Colston is the exception, not the rule. Plus, he does play outside a lot more then people acknowledge. In fact, on most 2 wrs sets he is outside.

Barden is an outside guy. Sure, occasionally all guys get motioned into slot positions. But, he was drafted to play outside and that is where we have used him. Again, we have a ton of guys who are slot guys, not to mention the best slot guy in the NFL last year(Cruz).

I still say he is a pure outside guy. You can argue that, but that doesnt suddenly make him something else. When we start using him in another capacity then we can talk.
we have used him out of the slot. i think like 5 of his 9 catches or however many he has, were from the slout. gmen0820 posted an article about it a while ago. they did use him more on the perimeter tho. i agree he's an outside guy, but he can also play outta the slot, he does have that ability.

and NO hardly ran a 2 wr formation. there was an article done on slot wr's and colston made like 80% of his plays from the slot, so a tall wr CAN do it well

nycsportzfan
08-13-2012, 11:19 AM
Comparing rookie offensive skill players to rookie defensive linemen? Oooo-k.

Tiki had 136 carries and 34 receptions and 4 total TDs his rookie year. How does that make your case for Jernigan?

Toomer, as I've said a couple times now, made his mark his first 2 seasons as a returner, scoring 2-3 TDs. Again, how does that make your case for Jernigan?

If he had done what Toomer did his rookie year on special teams, I wouldn't even be having this debate.

Again, you're making my case, not yours. Did u ever think that Jerrnigan might not be a Punt retruner? Just becaue hes shifty, and smallish, and speedy dosent' make him Devin Hester.. And i'm comparing Jerrnigan to some prominent giant rookies that did very littler early on in there career.. Why should it be diffrent because of the positon they play? Bottom line is some very good giants did very little early on in there careers because they had to work there way up the depth chart.. The giants and WR right now is one of the deepest positons on the team.. I'll say this again, hes gonna be here this yr, and its way to early to know weather hes gonna be good or bad.. He easily could end up being a dangerous weapon without returning punts.. The guy can throw it, run it, catch it.. Thats enough to make his impact if hes not our primary punt returner...

Gimaniac
08-13-2012, 11:30 AM
Did u ever think that Jerrnigan might not be a Punt retruner? Just becaue hes shifty, and smallish, and speedy dosent' make him Devin Hester.. And i'm comparing Jerrnigan to some prominent giant rookies that did very littler early on in there career.. Why should it be diffrent because of the positon they play? Bottom line is some very good giants did very little early on in there careers because they had to work there way up the depth chart.. The giants and WR right now is one of the deepest positons on the team.. I'll say this again, hes gonna be here this yr, and its way to early to know weather hes gonna be good or bad.. He easily could end up being a dangerous weapon without returning punts.. The guy can throw it, run it, catch it.. Thats enough to make his impact if hes not our primary punt returner...

The only way Jerell Drop-again can "catch it" is if the ball is covered with double sided duct tape and he lines up against Prince.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 11:39 AM
Colston is the exception, not the rule. Plus, he does play outside a lot more then people acknowledge. In fact, on most 2 wrs sets he is outside. Barden is an outside guy. Sure, occasionally all guys get motioned into slot positions. But, he was drafted to play outside and that is where we have used him. Again, we have a ton of guys who are slot guys, not to mention the best slot guy in the NFL last year(Cruz). I still say he is a pure outside guy. You can argue that, but that doesnt suddenly make him something else. When we start using him in another capacity then we can talk.Of course he was drafted to be an outside receiver, he did it in college, and outside receivers are much more valuable in this league. Still, that doesn't change the fact that his game is compromised by his limitations in the NFL, ones that don't bode well for an outside receiver in particular. You alluded to what an outside receiver has to do, but only tied it to Barden in terms of his size -- not what he can actually do. And if Colston is the exception, what is Jurevicius or Jerry Porter? They too, we're used in the slot for size mismatch reasons. And please, let's leave Cruz out of it. Sure, he's a great slot receiver, but that has no bearing on where Barden is better suited to play. Where his prospects of more playing time is? Sure. But where he is better suited to play, no, no besting whatsoever.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 12:11 PM
Of course he was drafted to be an outside receiver, he did it in college, and outside receivers are much more valuable in this league. Still, that doesn't change the fact that his game is compromised by his limitations in the NFL, ones that don't bode well for an outside receiver in particular. You alluded to what an outside receiver has to do, but only tied it to Barden in terms of his size -- not what he can actually do. And if Colston is the exception, what is Jurevicius or Jerry Porter? They too, we're used in the slot for size mismatch reasons. And please, let's leave Cruz out of it. Sure, he's a great slot receiver, but that has no bearing on where Barden is better suited to play. Where his prospects of more playing time is? Sure. But where he is better suited to play, no, no besting whatsoever.
You have shown ZERO evidence to the contrary. NOTHING. Barden is an outside guy. Watch how we use him. It is what he will live and die by on this team. Stop trying to change the facts.

Porter and Jerivevicious played in a different time with different rules. In the 90's LBs could molest guys in crossing patterns and DBs could put their hands on WRs past 5 yards. So having a bigger guy made sense in the middle. Now, you want a quick guy to exploit the fact that he can go in any direction and isnt Limmited by the sideline. And BTW, both those guys started their career inside and ended it outside.

Seriously? I cant even believe Im having this discussion. Who are the 2 best slot guys in the NFL right now? Cruz and Welker, by a MILE. Both of those guys work primarily from the slot and have way better stats from the slot and both are quickness guys. . Barden doesnt play slot for us and isnt a slot reciever. Every offense moves guys around for specifc plays, but he is a primary outside guy and was drafted as such. He actually has caught passes from the slot, as all offenses move guys around. But right now, this team needs depth on the outside, we have it inside and we dont outside. Move on please or show some evidence that Barden isnt an outside guy. You can name all the past NFL players who have played slot who are big and it wont matter 1 bit because it doesnt apply to him. Its like saying "there are a lot of 6'6 guys playing DE in the league therefor Barden can play DE."

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 12:49 PM
You have shown ZERO evidence to the contrary. NOTHING. Barden is an outside guy. Watch how we use him. It is what he will live and die by on this team. Stop trying to change the facts. Porter and Jerivevicious played in a different time with different rules. In the 90's LBs could molest guys in crossing patterns and DBs could put their hands on WRs past 5 yards. So having a bigger guy made sense in the middle. Now, you want a quick guy to exploit the fact that he can go in any direction and isnt Limmited by the sideline. And BTW, both those guys started their career inside and ended it outside. Seriously? I cant even believe Im having this discussion. Who are the 2 best slot guys in the NFL right now? Cruz and Welker, by a MILE. Both of those guys work primarily from the slot and have way better stats from the slot and both are quickness guys. . Barden doesnt play slot for us and isnt a slot reciever. Every offense moves guys around for specifc plays, but he is a primary outside guy and was drafted as such. He actually has caught passes from the slot, as all offenses move guys around. But right now, this team needs depth on the outside, we have it inside and we dont outside. Move on please or show some evidence that Barden isnt an outside guy. You can name all the past NFL players who have played slot who are big and it wont matter 1 bit because it doesnt apply to him. Its like saying "there are a lot of 6'6 guys playing DE in the league therefor Barden can play DE."Show me evidence he is an outside guy, instead of just saying how he is "pure outside" because he is big and strong. Barden has shown no toughness, ability to get off press, effectively separate, show any vertical explosion, be a factor in run blocking, or anything to the kind. Barden is better suited for the slot because his game is compromised in these areas, and the slot can raise his potential (in the mold of a Colston). You, sir, have shown no evidence -- AT ALL -- that supports your assertion. I just go off the fact that I KNOW Barden is comfortable in the slot, something you can't get through your head.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Oh, and just an FYI, Porter and Jurevicius played in the 2000s for the majority of their career.

dezzzR
08-13-2012, 01:08 PM
Thread is a joke. He knows his routes. Eli was staring him down on a few plays, which is good for jj. And the kid can block in the running game. JJ is too explosive to be cut, or sit on the bench all year.

GameTime
08-13-2012, 01:23 PM
[QUOTE=GameTime;447523]
actually, the limited success barden has had has been making plays in traffic and making tough catches when the defenders had great positioning...and i dunno how u came to the conclusion u did from my post. i said i believe he's better suited on the outside, but could still prob be used in the slot...
not really what you said just using your post as to how I feel about the guy. he has caught in traffic?? Not much and the traffic was do to him runing a poor inside route. Yeah he's caught a few tough passes but big deal....that doesnt make him an NFL caliber player. He is done and wont even make it to the end of camp. I wish him well where ever he winds up.....

RoanokeFan
08-13-2012, 02:28 PM
True. That's a puzzlement. However, it seemed apparent from his rookie year, Coughlin was willing to give Barden a virtual pass on special teams. He's never made the big deal about it (lack of ST contribution) concerning Barden--at least from what I've seen and heard--as he has with nearly every other rookie (except Eli of course).

Then there's the issue that every year Barden looks to make some steps forward in his receiving, but then gets injured for the year, or a major part of it, and he has to start all over again.

Jernigan, on the other hand, was clearly expected to contribute in the return game, in part because that was a successful component of his college game, and because we were desperate for it.

This year Wilson, who also had some returns in college on his resume, has already--in 1 game--shown us what Jernigan has not been able to, yet, after 5 pre season games and most of the regular 2011 season.

They tend to let draft picks work through their rookie contract. I think the hope is that they will develop into the player they thought they were drafting. Most of the time it works. If Jernigan doesn't improve at returns he had better become the second coming of Cruz.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 02:51 PM
I would just like to mention that I do not know where this notion came from that Barden does not play special teams. He absolutely has been on special teams(when healthy.) He is often used as the outside rusher trying to block punts and has actually come pretty close to doing it. He was also used on the field goal defense team a bit as well. Since he had been oft-injured, perhaps people forgot this.

But he absolutely did play special teams his rookie year. It just wasnt in the typical spots you see a WR

gmen46
08-13-2012, 02:58 PM
Did u ever think that Jerrnigan might not be a Punt retruner? Just becaue hes shifty, and smallish, and speedy dosent' make him Devin Hester.. And i'm comparing Jerrnigan to some prominent giant rookies that did very littler early on in there career.. Why should it be diffrent because of the positon they play? Bottom line is some very good giants did very little early on in there careers because they had to work there way up the depth chart.. The giants and WR right now is one of the deepest positons on the team.. I'll say this again, hes gonna be here this yr, and its way to early to know weather hes gonna be good or bad.. He easily could end up being a dangerous weapon without returning punts.. The guy can throw it, run it, catch it.. Thats enough to make his impact if hes not our primary punt returner...

The reason I keep harping on his (lack of) return skills. as a Giant, is for 3 reasons.

When he was drafted, one of his strong skills in college--in addition to his receiving--was described to be his return game.

We were at the time--and still are--in dire need of a good kick/punt returner.

It is usually assumed a rookie WR, especially a 3rd rd pick (as everyone in this thread has stated), will need a year or two to catch on to the pro game as WR.

And now, 2012, in which area do we need the most help? Wide receiver or kick/punt returner?

Not only is it obvious to everyone (even his ardent supporters here) Jernigan will not be a #1 or 2 receiver, it is fast becoming clear he will not be the #3.

Randle--by dint of his camp so far and 1 pre season game, not to mention his draft status this spring--is fast making #3 his position. If not Randle at the beginning of the season, it will be Hixon with Randle challenging him all season long.

This then leaves Jernigan battling with Barden, Douglas, Stanfield, Tally, etc, etc for 4, 5, 6, or 7 WR.

In this battle, what can he do to give himself an edge over the others? Besides make some receptions, that is? Special teams.

And because JJ is a little guy (not big and physical enough to be a gunner, apparently), and because returning kicks was specialty of his in college, the logical expectation of his special teams contribution would be kick returns. If he can't be reliable in returns--and so far, he clearly is not--he eliminates at least half of his value to the team.

Comparing Jernigan to Toomer (who produced multiple special teams TDs in his first 2 seasons) and Tiki (who had nearly 200 touches from line of scrimmage his rookie year), and especially comparing him to defensive linemen in their rookie seasons (lineman on both sides of the ball typically take much longer than offensive skill players aside from QB to produce quantitatively) does not make your argument.

As for the "the guy can throw it, run it, catch it". Upon what do you base this wild claim? Certainly not his Giants' career to date. And if you are basing it solely upon his college career, you do know there are dozens, if not hundreds, of college football stars who fail to make it in the pros every year, right?

And I will say again. He may well make it in the final 53 this his 2nd year. I have no definite knowledge of that at this time. But neither do you. Neither does anyone else--in this thread or elsewhere. You can think you know. You can say you know. But you don't know.

The OP raised the question is Jernigans time as a Giant on thin ice (to paraphrase). I say there is a very strong argument that his time here is in jeopardy. You can deny it all you want, but after Fridays' performance he understands that, guaranteed.

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 02:58 PM
im gonna be watching the wr's especially vs the jets. they have good corners and will prob be in vanilla man on man coverages. barden struggled badly last seasn vs them, lets see if he improved any. lets see if JJ can get seperation on cromartie/revis....gonna be a big opportunity for the wr's to make their case...

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 03:01 PM
Show me evidence he is an outside guy, instead of just saying how he is "pure outside" because he is big and strong. Barden has shown no toughness, ability to get off press, effectively separate, show any vertical explosion, be a factor in run blocking, or anything to the kind. Barden is better suited for the slot because his game is compromised in these areas, and the slot can raise his potential (in the mold of a Colston). You, sir, have shown no evidence -- AT ALL -- that supports your assertion. I just go off the fact that I KNOW Barden is comfortable in the slot, something you can't get through your head.Bump.......

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 03:04 PM
Show me evidence he is an outside guy, instead of just saying how he is "pure outside" because he is big and strong. Barden has shown no toughness, ability to get off press, effectively separate, show any vertical explosion, be a factor in run blocking, or anything to the kind. Barden is better suited for the slot because his game is compromised in these areas, and the slot can raise his potential (in the mold of a Colston). You, sir, have shown no evidence -- AT ALL -- that supports your assertion. I just go off the fact that I KNOW Barden is comfortable in the slot, something you can't get through your head.

So the fact that we use him as an outside guy isnt evidence?

do I need to show evidence that Ahmad Bradshaw is a runningback too? Oh but last week we ran a wr screen to Ahmad, I guess that makes him a WR now right?

We play him outside VAST majority of the time and that is all the evidence I need. I have the VAST majority of NFL teams prefering to have their bigger targets on the outside. You keep saying Barden is a slot guy, where is your evidence?

My opinion is that we have about 3-4 guys who are better suited as slot guys than Barden. If it comes down to needing him to play that position, he likey wont make the team. He will make it as an outside guy, or not at all. Because that is what he is on this team.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 03:06 PM
So the fact that we use him as an outside guy isnt evidence? do I need to show evidence that Ahmad Bradshaw is a runningback too? Oh but last week we ran a wr screen to Ahmad, I guess that makes him a WR now right? We play him outside VAST majority of the time and that is all the evidence I need. I have the VAST majority of NFL teams prefering to have their bigger targets on the outside. You keep saying Barden is a slot guy, where is your evidence? My opinion is that we have about 3-4 guys who are better suited as slot guys than Barden. If it comes down to needing him to play that position, he likey wont make the team. He will make it as an outside guy, or not at all. Because that is what he is on this team.
“I’ve played more slot than I have anywhere else. It’s actually a surprise to me I’m comfortable there,” the Giants’ wide receiver said yesterday. “If you’d have asked me that coming out of college, I’d have been like, ‘Slot? What are you talking about?’http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/10/giants_ramses_barden_now_healt.html?mobRedir=false



. (http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/10/giants_ramses_barden_now_healt.html?mobRedir=false )...wrong.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 03:10 PM
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/10/giants_ramses_barden_now_healt.html?mobRedir=false and article from last year...

he has 1 reception from the slot out of 15 in his pro career and that was against a zone defense.

Ahmad Bradshaw has more receptions from the slot than Barden, I guess he is a slot guy too.

All that article says is that we asked him to do it more than he was in colege. As I said, we move our guys around. He is still an outside guy. See last week's gametape is you like

gmen46
08-13-2012, 03:13 PM
They tend to let draft picks work through their rookie contract. I think the hope is that they will develop into the player they thought they were drafting. Most of the time it works. If Jernigan doesn't improve at returns he had better become the second coming of Cruz.

You have stated in one sentence what I have struggled (apparently struggled, since I got so much push-back against what I thought was an obvious conclusion to all) to say for 2 days. :strahan:

If JJ hasn't exceeded the limit of active games last year (ie, so no one else could pluck him), I would not be surprised to see him on the practice squad in Sept.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 03:16 PM
You have stated in one sentence what I have struggled (apparently struggled, since I got so much push-back against what I thought was an obvious conclusion to all) to say for 2 days. :strahan:

If JJ hasn't exceeded the limit of active games last year (ie, so no one else could pluck him), I would not be surprised to see him on the practice squad in Sept.

I was a little shocked you got so much feedback for basically saying you just want to see him actually do something on the field. Then, I remembered saying that same thing about Moss in 2007 and the flaming I got for saying it.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 03:19 PM
and article from last year...

he has 1 reception from the slot out of 15 in his pro career and that was against a zone defense.

Ahmad Bradshaw has more receptions from the slot than Barden, I guess he is a slot guy too.

All that article says is that we asked him to do it more than he was in colege. As I said, we move our guys around. He is still an outside guy. See last week's gametape is you likeAn article from midway last year that clearly says, FROM BARDEN'S OWN ACCOUNT, that he is:

1. Comfortable

and...

2. Was used in the slot MORE THAN ANYWHERE ELSE.

That alone contradicts your statement that: "We play him outside VAST majority of the time and that is all the evidence I need."...No. You. Are. Wrong. Barden says he was played in the slot more than anywhere else, wether he made receptions or not.

I have a quote, from the player we are discussing. You tell me to watch last weeks game, I have, multiple times. What do I see? A 6'6 WR that takes forever to get off the line, can't sustain separation outside, and a 14 yard reception, with no YAC on a two man route combo with Bradshaw to free him up. That's what I saw...that's it.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 03:22 PM
Let me clear this up, you say we use him outside "the VAST majority of the time". Barden himself has disagreed with that. You said Coughlin prefers big guys on the outside, WITH REGARDS to Barden, and that is discredited since Barden has said he was played in the slot (which, oh, ****, was under Coughlin's watch).

What are YOU going off, what is YOUR evidence? I've provided enough that directly relates to Barden, and you? You've not mentioned one word of what Barden can do, you just say "we have a lot of slot guys", and "he is a pure outside guy". Substance-less fluff.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 03:25 PM
And please, spare me the "an article from last year?" bull****. You really think Barden has proved anything in the time since? He ended the season pitifully, without activation. If anything, if you want to pull the "we used him outside SINCE that article was written" you're only proving how INCAPABLE Barden is on the outside since his season ended so roughly because of his ineffectiveness on the outside.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 04:07 PM
And please, spare me the "an article from last year?" bull****. You really think Barden has proved anything in the time since? He ended the season pitifully, without activation. If anything, if you want to pull the "we used him outside SINCE that article was written" you're only proving how INCAPABLE Barden is on the outside since his season ended so roughly because of his ineffectiveness on the outside.

Ok well, when we start lining him up in the slot regularly. I'll change my view of him as a outside guy.1 out of 15 isnt enough.


Until then...sorry.

Btw, i never said Barden proved anything. I am not defending him in any way. He has some work to do to make the team. I just said that we are a bit short on outside guys compared to slot guys. That is a fact. I think that might help him make the team. That is my opinion. But I could be wrong about him making the team. I am not , however, wrong about him being an outside guy, not until we start lining him up in the slot.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 04:27 PM
Ok well, when we start lining him up in the slot regularly. I'll change my view of him as a outside guy.1 out of 15 isnt enough.


Until then...sorry.

Btw, i never said Barden proved anything. I am not defending him in any way. He has some work to do to make the team. I just said that we are a bit short on outside guys compared to slot guys. That is a fact. I think that might help him make the team. That is my opinion. But I could be wrong about him making the team. I am not , however, wrong about him being an outside guy, not until we start lining him up in the slot.No, you said Barden is a pure outside guy, except you have no proof of this whatsoever. You say we play him the "VAST majority" of the time on the outside, but Barden (who I think would be a credible voice on this topic) has taken the opposite stance on this.

Other than that, you yourself has said that just that fact alone (which, judging by Barden's statement, isn't even true) is evidence. Uh, newsflash, your "evidence" isn't even true. And I don't care if you are, or aren't defending him. I'm disputing your claim that he is a pure outside guy, THAT is my problem in this thread. You can't support that claim, and I know it. Now you're argument is we have too many slot guys on the team. How does that make Barden a "pure outside guy"? It doesn't. And okay, don't concede that he isn't a pure outside guy, fine by me if you want to accept ignorance.

You need proof of him lining up anywhere other than outside? How about Barden's own words? Not enough? Okay, ignorance it is.

Barden is not a pure outside guy, and he's proven it with utter ineffectiveness that he has displayed when he plays the position. And just so you know, I'm not supporting that Barden is a "pure slot guy" either. I personally think that Barden is going to be ineffective wherever he lines up, but if he does have a chance, it'll be as an average-below average slot receiver, because I don't think your "pure outside guy" can cut it on the outside.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 04:29 PM
Unless, of course, you feel it is enough to call him a "pure outside guy" because of his size. Which, even as comical as I find it, I respect a whole lot more than backpedaling.

gmen46
08-13-2012, 04:29 PM
I was a little shocked you got so much feedback for basically saying you just want to see him actually do something on the field. Then, I remembered saying that same thing about Moss in 2007 and the flaming I got for saying it.

I know, right? 2007 was before my time on this board, but by 09 when I joined, there were still a few die-hard Moss advocates, although most members had jumped off the wagon by then. Hey, I felt for the guy then, just like I do for Jernigan now. I don't wish ill will on any player, but if he's on the team and he ain't producing, especially a high draft pick, he deserves to be called out--if not outright cut.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 04:45 PM
No, you said Barden is a pure outside guy, except you have no proof of this whatsoever.

Do I need Proof to say Ahmad Bradshaw is a running back? No. Because thats where we play him.

Do I need proof when I say Barden is an outside guy? No, because that is where we play him.

anything else?

would you also like to proclaim Eli manning is a DT then make me prove otherwise?

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 04:49 PM
I know, right? 2007 was before my time on this board, but by 09 when I joined, there were still a few die-hard Moss advocates, although most members had jumped off the wagon by then. Hey, I felt for the guy then, just like I do for Jernigan now. I don't wish ill will on any player, but if he's on the team and he ain't producing, especially a high draft pick, he deserves to be called out--if not outright cut.

I dont see him being cut just yet. I still think he has time to prove himself. But I do agree that I wont get on his bandwagon until he actually shows something.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 04:50 PM
Do I need proof when I say Barden is an outside guy? No, because that is where we play him.
“I’ve played more slot than I have anywhere else. It’s actually a surprise to me I’m comfortable there,” the Giants’ wide receiver said yesterday. “If you’d have asked me that coming out of college, I’d have been like, ‘Slot? What are you talking about?’http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/10/giants_ramses_barden_now_healt.html?mobRedir=false
(http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/10/giants_ramses_barden_now_healt.html?mobRedir=false )

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 04:51 PM
Barden, you must be wrong!!!!!!!!

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 04:57 PM
Again, when he actually lines up in the slot, and not on the outside as he has since arriving here, I will consider him something other than an outside guy.



I like how you dont post the part of the article(from last year) where it says the Giants were trying out guys at slot because of the injuries and loss of smith.

Looks like those tryouts kinda failed tho cause he was back to outside this year. Btw, where did he line up last weekend? Where have 14 of his career 15 catches come from?

that is right, the outside.

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 05:04 PM
No, you said Barden is a pure outside guy, except you have no proof of this whatsoever. You say we play him the "VAST majority" of the time on the outside, but Barden (who I think would be a credible voice on this topic) has taken the opposite stance on this.

Other than that, you yourself has said that just that fact alone (which, judging by Barden's statement, isn't even true) is evidence. Uh, newsflash, your "evidence" isn't even true. And I don't care if you are, or aren't defending him. I'm disputing your claim that he is a pure outside guy, THAT is my problem in this thread. You can't support that claim, and I know it. Now you're argument is we have too many slot guys on the team. How does that make Barden a "pure outside guy"? It doesn't. And okay, don't concede that he isn't a pure outside guy, fine by me if you want to accept ignorance.

You need proof of him lining up anywhere other than outside? How about Barden's own words? Not enough? Okay, ignorance it is.

Barden is not a pure outside guy, and he's proven it with utter ineffectiveness that he has displayed when he plays the position. And just so you know, I'm not supporting that Barden is a "pure slot guy" either. I personally think that Barden is going to be ineffective wherever he lines up, but if he does have a chance, it'll be as an average-below average slot receiver, because I don't think your "pure outside guy" can cut it on the outside.

well to be fair, barden was saying how he was surprised how he felt comfortable from the slot, not that he said he plays from the slot only. he was used from the slot , but not as much as he has lined up out wide (edit-IIRC).

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 05:07 PM
Again, when he actually lines up in the slot, and not on the outside as he has since arriving here, I will consider him something other than an outside guy.

Btw, where did he line up last weekend?What do you mean when he actually lines up in the slot? He has said, since he has arrived here, he has played in the slot more than anywhere else. He has the knowledge to include practice, and game snaps. Furthermore, you mention how he has 1/15 catches in the slot, now does that include the other 250+ snaps he has played, uh....no. But don't worry about the 235+ snap discrepancy, I have a tool that will fill in the rest....A QUOTE FROM BARDEN!

Your argument is on the opposite side of Barden's testimony. As an outsider looking in, who's word do you think they're gonna take: mine + Barden's, or yours.

And yes, Barden played on the outside last week. But how does that make him a pure outside receiver, that is the point of this argument. Barden claims last year he is comfortable in the slot, and has been mostly played there. He plays out the year, does nothing as an outside receiver, plays last week (does nothing special there either) and you proclaim "pure outside".

Tell me, is it the size? Is that your reasoning? What is it?

Midway through last year, he says he's been mostly a slot receiver, and is comfortable. You somehow interpret that in your own thoughts, and refute it by saying "Again, when he actually lines up in the slot, and not on the outside as he has since arriving here, I will consider him something other than an outside guy."

Why don't you believe Barden? Has he betrayed you before.

Just admit it, your flawed reasoning on this is solely that he is tall, because your claim that he only plays on the outside has been refuted by Barden himself.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 05:11 PM
he was used from the slot only, but not as much as he has lined up out wide.Actually, I see it as exactly the opposite.

Though his 26-yard catch came when he was lined up out wide, Barden was in the slot for 17 of his 19 snaps. He had two catches there and another that was negated by a penalty.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 05:35 PM
I love how you quote an article refering to the 2010 dallas game, where Barden was forced to play slot because we were down to 4 wrs because of injuries. Our 4 Wrs were Nicks, MM, Barden and Duke calhoun.

Furthermore, do you think it helps or hurts your point that he had 17 snaps from the slot position and failed to sniff the same stats that he accomplished in his 2 snaps on the outside?

Thank you for proving my point.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 05:46 PM
I love how you quote an article refering to the 2010 dallas game, where Barden was forced to play slot because we were down to 4 wrs because of injuries. Our 4 Wrs were Nicks, MM, Barden and Duke calhoun.

Furthermore, do you think it helps or hurts your point that he had 17 snaps from the slot position and failed to sniff the same stats that he accomplished in his 2 snaps on the outside?

Thank you for proving my point.Two slot catches, and 1 outside catch. And yeah, we were down 4 WRs, don't you think that Barden, the "pure outside receiver" would be just there.

I'm not proving your point, I'm proving to you that he HAS played in the slot to accommodate your request of: "Again, when he actually lines up in the slot, and not on the outside as he has since arriving here, I will consider him something other than an outside guy. "


gmen0820
08-13-2012, 05:48 PM
Not only have I done that, I've also provided you testimony that not only has he played in the slot enough to warrant your consideration of him as something other than an outside receiver, I've also given you a quote that says (from Barden, if it still hasn't sunk in) that he had played mostly in the slot as of November 2011.

So what's next? Justify your "pure outside receiver claim".

Imgrate
08-13-2012, 05:50 PM
Barden in the slot is akin to how Gonzo plays in the slot or how shockey did. He is obviously not nearlyas good as these guys.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 05:53 PM
Furthermore, do you think it helps or hurts your point that he had 17 snaps from the slot position and failed to sniff the same stats that he accomplished in his 2 snaps on the outside?Oh my god, this is precious. You want to talk about lack of production? Look at Barden on the outside, where you claim he exclusively plays. He has no production in general, does he have some production on the outside I'm unaware of?

My stance is that he is not a pure outside receiver, but I don't believe he is a good receiver in general. I don't even think he is a pure slot receiver, I just know that he isn't pure outside, and find it laughable that you claim he is and I just want you to justify it in a way that I can't refute.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 05:55 PM
Barden in the slot is akin to how Gonzo plays in the slot or how shockey did. He is obviously not nearlyas good as these guys.I'd call it more similar to asking Jurevicius, Jerry Porter, or Marques Colston to play the slot. You can't cut it on the outside, so you offer a size advantage inside the numbers.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 06:03 PM
Not only have I done that, I've also provided you testimony that not only has he played in the slot enough to warrant your consideration of him as something other than an outside receiver, I've also given you a quote that says (from Barden, if it still hasn't sunk in) that he had played mostly in the slot as of November 2011.

So what's next? Justify your "pure outside receiver claim".


So lets review. You are using the 1 game where barden was forced to play slot, because it was either him or Duke Calhoun since we were down to 4 WRs(nicks, MM, Barden , Duke) as supporting evidence that Barden is a slot guy.
again, here are his stats from that game from the slot according to you:

17 snaps ,2 receptions, 8 yards
From the outside:
2 snaps 1 reception 26 yards.

This was against the 26th ranked passing defense in the league, and a game we trailed the entire time and spent throwing the ball around the entire game.

Despite all that in his favor he garnered 2 receptions for 8 yards in 17 snaps from the slot.

Again, thank you for proving to us all that he is an outside guy.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 06:08 PM
where you claim he exclusively plays.

Now your trying to put words in my mouth as your pathetic argument sinks like the titanic. I never once ever said he plays outside "exclusively". I have said "a majority of the time" or things akin to that. I completely recognize that our offense doesnt pigeonhole guys like that. We move guys around as the situation calls.

but thats ok, your just gonna keep going trying to get the last word, even when you completely prove my argument for me in doing so.

Keep going back to 2010 games where he was force to play out of position due to us being down to 4 wrs. Go back to articles a year ago refering times where we were injury riddled.

All I have to do is go back to last week to prove my point, or just let you keep typing. Good day

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 06:16 PM
So lets review. You are using the 1 game where barden was forced to play slot, because it was either him or Duke Calhoun since we were down to 4 WRs(nicks, MM, Barden , Duke) as supporting evidence that Barden is a slot guy.
again, here are his stats from that game from the slot according to you:

17 snaps ,2 receptions, 8 yards
From the outside:
2 snaps 1 reception 26 yards.

This was against the 26th ranked passing defense in the league, and a game we trailed the entire time and spent throwing the ball around the entire game.

Despite all that in his favor he garnered 2 receptions for 8 yards in 17 snaps from the slot.

Again, thank you for proving to us all that he is an outside guy.If I've proved anything, it is that Barden is a terrible wide receiver, and is far from a pure anything, slot or outside.

You tell me how he is pure outside if he:

1. Does nothing from the outside, nor fit the mold of a pure outside receiver as well as a slot receiver
2. Has said that he is surprisingly comfortable in the slot
3. Has said that he has mostly been used in the slot
4. Has a higher target percentage from the slot in 2/3 years

Give me something tangible. I mean you called him pure outside, but he can't separate, beat press coverage, get open without compromising scheme, and doesn't effectively run block. Do you know what the responsibilities of outside receivers are? Apply them to Barden, and since he is pure, they should ALL apply.

Captain Chaos
08-13-2012, 06:18 PM
And I thought this was a thread about JJ and found it to be just another Barden bashing session. C'mon guys really????

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 06:18 PM
All I have to do is go back to last week to prove my point, or just let you keep typing. Good dayYes, go back to last week to see Barden be invisible and display qualities of a player better suited for the slot. You have one reason he is pure outside, because he plays there when you look for it. But you don't realize that he plays there with utter ineffectiveness, which should lead you to assume, maybe he is out of position.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 06:57 PM
Yes, go back to last week to see Barden be invisible and display qualities of a player better suited for the slot. You have one reason he is pure outside, because he plays there when you look for it. But you don't realize that he plays there with utter ineffectiveness, which should lead you to assume, maybe he is out of position.

He was only in for a couple drives(as a starting outside wr) and he caught the lone catchable pass thrown to him. He was not invisible, he was outside just where he has always been for us, except that 1 game where we were down to 4wrs and he was forced to play the slot and did horribly.

And my stats above regarding the dallas game show that he was effective outside, and ineffective in the slot. As I said, keep proving my point for me: 2 plays outside with 1 catch for 26 yards is hardly ineffective.

giantsfan420
08-13-2012, 07:03 PM
well again to be fair (and i actually cited u gmen0820 bc u posted that article a while back bc i held the "hes an outside guy" mentality as well) Barden did enter the league being strictly an outside type guy. and JR certainly picked him to be that outside perimeter type wr. and the plan is still to do that imo.

now, whether thats right or not, who knows. barden has played out of the slot, and imo, he prob has played close to the same amount of snaps in the slot and out wide...im hopeful he can contribute in any way, heck if he can make an impact as a FB i'm all for it.

RoanokeFan
08-13-2012, 07:05 PM
You have stated in one sentence what I have struggled (apparently struggled, since I got so much push-back against what I thought was an obvious conclusion to all) to say for 2 days. :strahan:

If JJ hasn't exceeded the limit of active games last year (ie, so no one else could pluck him), I would not be surprised to see him on the practice squad in Sept.

Assuming I'm correct, always iffy, Barden and Jernigan are at opposite ends of that continuum.

gmen0820
08-13-2012, 07:28 PM
He was only in for a couple drives(as a starting outside wr) and he caught the lone catchable pass thrown to him. He was not invisible, he was outside just where he has always been for us, except that 1 game where we were down to 4wrs and he was forced to play the slot and did horribly. And my stats above regarding the dallas game show that he was effective outside, and ineffective in the slot. As I said, keep proving my point for me: 2 plays outside with 1 catch for 26 yards is hardly ineffective.He wasn't effective anywhere. Look at his career stats, and tell me that he has been effective at any time. I'm curious as to why you think he is pure outside, what in his game tells you that?