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View Full Version : Wasn't Ramses Barden supposed to be our "green zone" threat?



GiantsDynasty
08-13-2012, 04:05 AM
So why haven't we seen them making plays for Barden in the endzone? Wasn't the corner fade his money route in college? He may have raw talent but it may not be enough. I think this project may be over.

BlueSanta
08-13-2012, 04:11 AM
I do not agree that his time is over. We have a lot of WRs but a lot of those guys are slot guys. We do not have a lot of outside guys. That helps him make the team.

TheAnalyst
08-13-2012, 09:02 AM
I dont get it either. When I see him out there, he snags everything. I remember last year he had a couple of GREAT catches. Eli threw to the inside when he should of thrown to the outside, and it would of been picked if Ramses doesnt jump and snag the ball from in front of the CB. Oh well. They know best I guess. Randle looked good in the redzone though, even if it was against a 4th string cb.

Diamondring
08-13-2012, 09:15 AM
Sometimes even in todays NFL. it takes some years for some players to develop.

Moke
08-13-2012, 09:22 AM
I want to see Barden one or 2 more times. I think he can amount to something for the Giants.


We'll see if he can handle the fiasco against the Jets

Diamondring
08-13-2012, 09:29 AM
I think that posters shouldn't get to wild up on Barden cause there are no other wrs ahead of him except for Rueben who has been our first rounder and even he may not be if Barden performs well.

miked1958
08-13-2012, 10:37 AM
I do not agree that his time is over. We have a lot of WRs but a lot of those guys are slot guys. We do not have a lot of outside guys. That helps him make the team.I agree with you. I think he has great hands and could very well be the 4th or 4th WR on this team and be brought in as a situational WR. Like the fade or let him go up high on a 3rd and long

Moke
08-13-2012, 10:48 AM
He looked pretty good on a few slants too.

BeatYale
08-13-2012, 11:11 AM
So why haven't we seen them making plays for Barden in the endzone? Wasn't the corner fade his money route in college? He may have raw talent but it may not be enough. I think this project may be over.

Were Nicks, Cruz and Manningham insufficient when we got to that part of the field? I understand having a bigger guy can be beneficial, but the question is - were we lacking in production from our receivers last year in that department compared to the other top offenses in the league?

I don't think he really had a 'money route', he was just bigger and more athletic than the competition he played against. He had no need to run good routes to get separation. This probably made the transition to the pro game much more difficult for him because he's no longer the best athlete on the field. NFL DB's are gazelles compared to the bums he played against in that weak division.

I know people assume a player can improve in any given area, but some aspects of the game guys just have to have a knack for. At the NFL level, regardless of your size, you have to be able to run good routes to be productive. You also need to be able to beat the jam at the LOS. Those things can be taught, but only a select few can perfect it enough to become consistent producers on the field.

I do agree with others about him having good hands though.

ponch inda face
08-13-2012, 01:00 PM
He's made some good grabs in the limited chances he's gotten and i root for him cuz i think if he works hard he could be a good option for Eli, but you need more than size to be a RZ threat. I could have sworn the knock on him coming out of college was that he does not use his body well when fighting for the ball. That is a major part of becoming and remaining a factor down in the RZ.

That said, I havent seen enough of him to know if this is accurate or not, but I would assume the coaches have in practice. This may be the main reason he doesnt get a lot of burn at the pro level...that and injuries.

Hakeeeem88
08-13-2012, 02:40 PM
I don’t think he’s a bust just yet. I’d give him one more season and your right the guys 6’6 they don’t use him enough in the red zone.

Carter.525
08-13-2012, 03:08 PM
I thought he was going to be the next Plax, The door isnt shut yet.. but it closing

Captain Chaos
08-13-2012, 06:32 PM
He did fine in the first preseason game, lets see what he does in the second. Consistency will be key!

FIFTY6G-MAN
08-13-2012, 06:36 PM
I want to see Barden one or 2 more times. I think he can amount to something for the Giants.


Yeah, a refund!:p

RoanokeFan
08-13-2012, 07:09 PM
So why haven't we seen them making plays for Barden in the endzone? Wasn't the corner fade his money route in college? He may have raw talent but it may not be enough. I think this project may be over.

Shouldn't we be expecting players to step up and make the plays that are drawn up?

EJ Blue
08-13-2012, 07:09 PM
I still remember him doing receiving drills at the combine in 2009 and looking great.

...that's the most action I've seen him participate in to this day, and people want to make an argument that he's an asset? puh-leeze.

RoanokeFan
08-13-2012, 07:13 PM
I still remember him doing receiving drills at the combine in 2009 and looking great.

...that's the most action I've seen him participate in to this day, and people want to make an argument that he's an asset? puh-leeze.

I will never forget Jerry Reese being interviewed about Sinorice Moss about three years into his (moss') tenure here. One of the things Reese said was "he catches everything thrown to him." What he didn't add was an d then he runs out of the first downs!. It's not just about catching the balls, it's what you do after that moves the chains.

jomo
08-13-2012, 07:18 PM
Barden sure is tall.

fansince69
08-13-2012, 07:21 PM
I will never forget Jerry Reese being interviewed about Sinorice Moss about three years into his (moss') tenure here. One of the things Reese said was "he catches everything thrown to him." What he didn't add was an d then he runs out of the first downs!. It's not just about catching the balls, it's what you do after that moves the chains.

Maningham did the exact same thing several times before he figured it out

BlueBlitzer
08-13-2012, 07:23 PM
Lets face it. When we moved up to draft Him, we were desperate. Amani lost a step, and Plaxico committed Stupidity-side. We had nobody. The man has been getting 3 years of game checks, while doing nothing. A coach once said " You're Potential is getting me Fired "

jomo
08-13-2012, 07:27 PM
Maningham did the exact same thing several times before he figured it outHe never figured it out. Even during our playoff run, he was running fade patters without properly setting them up which resulted in him running out of real estate. Manningham progressed a little during his tenure but still made major technical mistakes in route running right to the end that were visable to any student of the game. Thank goodness he had great elusiveness and above average hands.

jomo
08-13-2012, 07:28 PM
Lets face it. When we moved up to draft Him, we were desperate. Amani lost a step, and Plaxico committed Stupidity-side. We had nobody. The man has been getting 3 years of game checks, while doing nothing. A coach once said " You're Potential is getting me Fired "You make a good point and that is why you never want to be entering the draft in a desperate mode. That's how mistakes are made.

RoanokeFan
08-13-2012, 07:46 PM
Barden sure is tall.

AH YES, the height is everything theory :p

appodictic
08-13-2012, 08:21 PM
The problem is that he is soft. Plaxico was tall but used his body strength to get in position for catches. I was watching our game against the jets and Barden just lets corner backs walk him right out of bounds,trips over his own feet. He probably gets cut in line at the drug store by 80 year old grandmothers. Cruz is not big but he gets aggressive and gets physical. Barden should not even be in camp. Hes on the Derick Ward im good but I am always hurt team. If we keep him for 8 years we might get one decent year out of him.

jomo
08-13-2012, 09:30 PM
AH YES, the height is everything theory :p........................................

jomo
08-13-2012, 09:35 PM
AH YES, the height is everything theory :plol I need to let that one go. Even I would say that I have over used the quote. It drive me nuts when people lock in on one "measurable" like height, 40 speed etc and extrapolate that into greatness. Plax was tall and he fizzled on us but hey, this guy is tall so he must be like Plax etc etc. I hear that stuff and feel compelled to swat it back. What I really like are guys that are described as "football players" or "play makers." There, I'm done with a little self therapy and I can get back to work. Go Blue!!

yoeddy
08-13-2012, 09:43 PM
Still not sure how we let Anthony Mix go...

GameTime
08-13-2012, 09:48 PM
he wont even make the end of camp.....

jomo
08-13-2012, 10:06 PM
Still not sure how we let Anthony Mix go...Just when I promise to let go of the "tall thing" with Barden, you had to introduce Anthony Mix just to torture me? lol

miked1958
08-13-2012, 10:12 PM
I donít think heís a bust just yet. Iíd give him one more season and your right the guys 6í6 they donít use him enough in the red zone.Dallas drafted this 6'4 kid and Orton has used his height few times in this game tonight. Now I know u can't make judgement on someone that has only caught a few passes in preseason. We did that with barden and here we are 4 yrs later in this thread still wondering what his potential is.

jomo
08-13-2012, 10:22 PM
Dallas drafted this 6'4 kid and Orton has used his height few times in this game tonight. Now I know u can't make judgement on someone that has only caught a few passes in preseason. We did that with barden and here we are 4 yrs later in this thread still wondering what his potential is.Height does not = talent or play making ability.

Diamondring
08-13-2012, 10:33 PM
Height does not = talent or play making ability.True, but with talent, it can give a player a great advantage over usualy the smaller dbs.

jomo
08-13-2012, 11:00 PM
True, but with talent, it can give a player a great advantage over usualy the smaller dbs.So it starts with talent right?
If we go out looking for a tall receiver we are likely to come back with a tall receiver.
I suggest we go looking for play making wide receivers who have quickness and great hands and terrific football IQ. If they are tall, that might be a plus but would only be by coincidence. I'll take excellent over tall any day.

Diamondring
08-13-2012, 11:34 PM
So it starts with talent right?
If we go out looking for a tall receiver we are likely to come back with a tall receiver.
I suggest we go looking for play making wide receivers who have quickness and great hands and terrific football IQ. If they are tall, that might be a plus but would only be by coincidence. I'll take excellent over tall any day.I did said but with talent, it can give a player a great advantage over the usualy smaller db. In this case with Bardan, he was drafted for a certain reason. I believe it was the simple fact that he has talent with his height. I understand that there were smaller receivers who did very well but we also have to look at the simple fact that the post was about Barden being a threat in the redzone on fade passes. We know that fade passes in the redzone usualy are high and most dbs who might be shorter and are unable to jump high enough to defend the pass. I agreed with you but add truth that talent does help though. Giants did draft Rueban who is close to 6 ft 4 right? He was a high round prospect as well so that tells you that he must have talent with his size to give him the advantage over most dbs.

jomo
08-13-2012, 11:56 PM
I did said but with talent, it can give a player a great advantage over the usualy smaller db. In this case with Bardan, he was drafted for a certain reason. I believe it was the simple fact that he has talent with his height. I understand that there were smaller receivers who did very well but we also have to look at the simple fact that the post was about Barden being a threat in the redzone on fade passes. We know that fade passes in the redzone usualy are high and most dbs who might be shorter and are unable to jump high enough to defend the pass. I agreed with you but add truth that talent does help though. Giants did draft Rueban who is close to 6 ft 4 right? He was a high round prospect as well so that tells you that he must have talent with his size to give him the advantage over most dbs.I understand what you are saying but IMHO height is overrated. We have Nicks, Cruz and Manningham last year, none of whom would be considered tall. It was one of the very best groups in the NFL without so called height. If Lebron was 7 feet tall wow, he'd be incredible. But he isn't so I'll take him at 6'8". He's still incredible. I go back to my original statement that if you go looking for a tall receiver, you'll get a tall guy but you are going to make more mistakes than if you go looking for great talent.

Diamondring
08-14-2012, 12:22 AM
I understand waht you are saying but IMHO height is overrated. We have Nicks, Cruz and Manningham last year, none of whom would be considered tall. It was one of the very best groups in the NFL without so called height. If Lebron was 7 feet tall wow, he'd be incredible. But he isn't so I'll take him at 6'8". He's still incredible. I go back to my original statement that if you go looking for a tall receiver, you'll get a tall guy but you are going to make more mistakes than if you go looking for great talent.You do not understand what I said cause you are responding trying to make your point. You said it yourself that height is overrated so according to you, height does nothing. Yet again, the Giants drafed Rueben who is close to 6 ft 4 so why you think the Giants got him?

giantsfan420
08-14-2012, 12:27 AM
You do not understand what I said cause you are responding trying to make your point. You said it yourself that height is overrated so according to you, height does nothing. Yet again, the Giants drafed Rueban who is close to 6 ft 4 so why you think the Giants got him?

bc RR is a great prospect. we will take any sized wr if he shows he can get it done. i mean we drafted JJ and hes 5'8...

Diamondring
08-14-2012, 12:43 AM
bc RR is a great prospect. we will take any sized wr if he shows he can get it done. i mean we drafted JJ and hes 5'8...Look, I'm going to ask you this question, why the Giants drafted Rueben?

giantsfan420
08-14-2012, 01:46 AM
bc he is a talented wr. we lost MM. he has the qualities we look for in a wr...

Diamondring
08-14-2012, 02:20 AM
bc he is a talented wr. we lost MM. he has the qualities we look for in a wr...He was drafted cause he has talent and size as well. Size does matter cause usualy, teams pick tes and that position calls for size and the lack of it is not enough. A wr with size and talent can do a lot of things. I never said size is the only thing to a wr but if a wr is going to be short, he has got to have attributes that can beat many in the NFL cause if he doesn't, he is not going to get drafted. The same goes with tall receivers. They got to be talented cause if a tall receiver can't catch and so on, you know the rest. The Arguement I had with a previouse poster was about size and he said that size does nothing. I think they also drafted Rueben cause he fits to X Receiver as well and good at getting high passes.

yoeddy
08-14-2012, 03:49 AM
You do not understand what I said cause you are responding trying to make your point. You said it yourself that height is overrated so according to you, height does nothing. Yet again, the Giants drafed Rueben who is close to 6 ft 4 so why you think the Giants got him?

"Overrated" does not equal "does nothing"...

jomo
08-14-2012, 07:52 AM
You do not understand what I said cause you are responding trying to make your point. You said it yourself that height is overrated so according to you, height does nothing. Yet again, the Giants drafed Rueben who is close to 6 ft 4 so why you think the Giants got him?Where did I say that? I said height is overrated. How is that the same as "height does nothing?"

Maybe it is the point that I am trying to make and it connects to my approach to harvesting talent. In the roll down of what is important height is only one of the factors and in the end not terribly important if the other factors are not in place. That is how we wind up with guys like Mix and Barden. When someone says "we like his height" I cringe because in the scheme of things that tells me nothing about what is much more important.

I thought I agreed with you that if all the other factors are in place and you've got some height that is a nice pluse.

All the other factors without height will still work out.
Height without the other factors is, well, just height.

GameTime
08-14-2012, 08:47 AM
height without drive, talent, understanding, and smarts means nothing.
Look how many "shorter" WR kick ***........

RoanokeFan
08-14-2012, 11:49 AM
lol I need to let that one go. Even I would say that I have over used the quote. It drive me nuts when people lock in on one "measurable" like height, 40 speed etc and extrapolate that into greatness. Plax was tall and he fizzled on us but hey, this guy is tall so he must be like Plax etc etc. I hear that stuff and feel compelled to swat it back. What I really like are guys that are described as "football players" or "play makers." There, I'm done with a little self therapy and I can get back to work. Go Blue!!

It's really fascinating when a fan is able to simplify a players "talents" into body measurements.

river555
08-14-2012, 12:43 PM
here's my take on Barden...he either plays great these next 3 games and proves he can contribute or he will not make the team. I dont see the point in keeping him on the team if he's going to be the 6th WR with limited playing time. He's in the last year of his contract and he'll be gone next off season anyway. Rather just cut your loses now and give that roster spot to someone younger who they can develop and will be around for the next several years.(Douglas, DePalma etc.). But, if he proves he con contribute and moves up the depth chart ahead of Randle and JJ or even Hixon (won't be easy) then I think he will stick aorund.

pacco_diablo
08-14-2012, 01:10 PM
It's interesting how he has become such a divisive subject. There are those of us who see value in him and others who simply do not. If he's not as good as some of us believe then he will simply not make the team. I don't see the coaches keeping him around if they feel that others are more talented at WR. They obviously see and know way more about him than we do and I don't think they'd be interested in keeping him around as some charity case.

I will say this though... just as with the first preseason game, he has been participating with the 1's, which one could assume makes him higher on the depth chart. Despite his faults, I personally see a lot of upside with him. I see the value. Those who do not are absolutely entitled to their opinions. I'm not going to fault or ridicule them for that. In a few weeks we'll see what the coaches and FO decide.

On the subject of his height, all other things being equal, I definitely see it as an advantage, even more so when he uses it to his advantage. I personally think that it would be difficult to argue against that. But hey... that's just my opinion,

Diamondring
08-14-2012, 01:19 PM
"Overrated" does not equal "does nothing"...Yes it does. It means have no effect.

yoeddy
08-14-2012, 01:20 PM
I would say that it's only an advantage if the player knows how to use his height to his advantage (the way Plax did)...otherwise, it could be a disadvantage; tall players like that usually have slower acceleration and ability to change directions than smaller/quicker players.

yoeddy
08-14-2012, 01:22 PM
Yes it does. It means have no effect.

? "Overrated" means "rated higher than it actually is". This could mean that it is rated highest but is really only second-highest. I've never heard "Overrated" to mean "have no effect".

Diamondring
08-14-2012, 01:36 PM
? "Overrated" means "rated higher than it actually is". This could mean that it is rated highest but is really only second-highest. I've never heard "Overrated" to mean "have no effect".Well that is what the poster I quoted made it seem like it has no effect on the field.

jomo
08-14-2012, 01:43 PM
Well that is what the poster I quoted made it seem like it has no effect on the field.Never said that, sorry. I was always clear that height is overrated. That's all. The definition in any dictionary is pretty clear. The Urban Dictionary says that overrated is defined as: A term used to describe something that gets more hype and credit than it's actually worth. Websters dictionary will support this definition, so there you have it.

Diamondring
08-14-2012, 01:54 PM
Never said that, sorry. I was always clear that height is overrated. That's all. The definition in any dictionary is pretty clear. The Urban Dictionary says that overrated is defined as: A term used to describe something that gets more hype and credit than it's actually worth. Websters dictionary will support this definition, so there you have it.I'm not going by what it means but how you used it actualy I also never said height alone gives a tall receiver the advantage. I also included talent along with the height. I know the Giants didn't draft Rueban for his talent alone.

yoeddy
08-14-2012, 02:03 PM
I'm not going by what it means but how you used it actualy I also never said height alone gives a tall receiver the advantage. I also included talent along with the height. I know the Giants didn't draft Rueban for his talent alone.

If you read what Reese said about Reuben after they drafted him, he says that they liked that "he can run the whole route tree"...so they prioritized his ability to be an every-down WR and not just a "tall target to help the red zone".