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View Full Version : 3rd/4th and short...Pass more?



giantsfan420
08-19-2012, 12:19 AM
it kind of dawned on me when Hixon converted that 4th down (RF i know u loved that play and hixon earned some trust from eli there too) that we should pass more on those down and distances. our run game didnt get it done at all last season, and I cant remember a time we actually passed out of a 4th and short...
I'd like to see that done more. those plays are so critical, I'd prefer the ball be in elis hands making the decision than Ware or really any back behind this line. the good thing is if we do it enough opposing defenses have to keep honest and it will actually make it possible to convert those with the run...

giantsfan420
08-19-2012, 12:20 AM
with how awful our short yardage run game was, I'm surprised we didn't pass more out of it. we started to do it more near the end of the season and playoffs...I guess bc we had BJ we thought that was a higher % of conversion?

giantsfan420
08-19-2012, 12:28 PM
bump. what do u guys think, go to the pass more in these situations?

Evo'Ed
08-19-2012, 12:30 PM
^......I kind of like passing more on 3rd and short; especially play action.

Of course we have to make some 3rd and shorts to make play action effective or else Eli can get hit hard.

Toadofsteel
08-19-2012, 02:39 PM
The coaches were testing Ware for short yardage situations... that was more important than actually converting the 3rd down in a preseason game.

giantsfan420
08-19-2012, 02:40 PM
well were they testing Jacobs last season on all those failed conversion attempts? figured we could pass more and have a higer rate of conversion. it isnt just a preseason thing is my point...

and it would just make more sense imo. i mean the d coverage is gonna be exploitable with the focus on stopping the short yardage run. theres a whole lot of field to work with and with our wr's, esp nicks and cruz, they could turn a simple in cut into a TD...plus. by passing out of that situation more, it will open it up for the run when we go that route

nhpgiantsfan
08-19-2012, 02:59 PM
The entire football universe knows that Ware is getting the shotgun draw, every time. Big problem on short yardage in my opinion. Too predictable.

tuck&rolle
08-19-2012, 03:30 PM
it kind of dawned on me when Hixon converted that 4th down (RF i know u loved that play and hixon earned some trust from eli there too) that we should pass more on those down and distances. our run game didnt get it done at all last season, and I cant remember a time we actually passed out of a 4th and short...
I'd like to see that done more. those plays are so critical, I'd prefer the ball be in elis hands making the decision than Ware or really any back behind this line. the good thing is if we do it enough opposing defenses have to keep honest and it will actually make it possible to convert those with the run...

I'd like to see it mixed in a little bit more. But if Hixon drops that pass in a game that matters, would we still be supportive of it? Probably not. I think it makes a nice change of pace because everyone is obviously expecting a run up the middle. I doubt it works often if it is used repeatedly

jomo
08-19-2012, 03:40 PM
I'd like to see it mixed in a little bit more. But if Hixon drops that pass in a game that matters, would we still be supportive of it? Probably not. I think it makes a nice change of pace because everyone is obviously expecting a run up the middle. I doubt it works often if it is used repeatedlyI agree with you. If he drops it, that is no worse than what our running game has been doing. There is a small chance of an interception but Eli is seasoned at this point and would throw those balls well enough to make that a very low probability. There is also the chance that our receiver could break one for an easy TD since more often than not in 3rd and short or 4th and short there would be single man coverage. Actually if we show that we can pass in those situations, it might open up the running game. We need to find something different because we haven't been converting short yardage situations via the run at a high enough level for several years now. We are not going to fix that problem in the next few weeks.

tuck&rolle
08-19-2012, 03:46 PM
I agree with you. If he drops it, that is no worse than what our running game has been doing. There is a small chance of an interception but Eli is seasoned at this point and would throw those balls well enough to make that a very low probability. There is also the chance that our receiver could break one for an easy TD since more often than not in 3rd and short or 4th and short there would be single man coverage. Actually if we show that we can pass in those situations, it might open up the running game. We need to find something different because we haven't been converting short yardage situations via the run at a high enough level for several years now. We are not going to fix that problem in the next few weeks.

This all stems from the predictability of the running game. The draw play is effective when used sporadically, but can't be a staple of the run game. There is no element of surprise in short-yardage situations, which is the main reason why we struggle there. You're right, if a few pass plays are successful, it may very well open up that run game.

jomo
08-19-2012, 04:17 PM
This all stems from the predictability of the running game. The draw play is effective when used sporadically, but can't be a staple of the run game. There is no element of surprise in short-yardage situations, which is the main reason why we struggle there. You're right, if a few pass plays are successful, it may very well open up that run game.Having Eli lined up to pass forces the D to respect that to an extent. That loosens up what otherwise would be a totally packed front. Still our performance has been terrible. We need something else.

tuck&rolle
08-19-2012, 04:31 PM
Having Eli lined up to pass forces the D to respect that to an extent. That loosens up what otherwise would be a totally packed front. Still our performance has been terrible. We need something else.

I think next year the focus needs to shift to rebuilding the line. I understand that the front office wanted to replace the talent that we lost and surround Eli with playmakers but the offense could really thrive if Eli had an extra second and the running backs had some lanes. It's a slow, unpopular job, but we will need to protect our star, especially as he starts getting up in age.

That said, you can't expect much improvement through the draft when you pick last every round. I'll take that problem any day of the year.

giantsfan420
08-19-2012, 04:38 PM
Having Eli lined up to pass forces the D to respect that to an extent. That loosens up what otherwise would be a totally packed front. Still our performance has been terrible. We need something else.
i was a little unclear in the point that we could still pass out of the heavy run formations. i wouldnt want to line up in shotgun on 3rd or 4th and short. occasionally i would but for the most part i'd line up eye formation, one wideout, two te's. and then either PA or do a quick 3 step drop pass...even an incomplete opens up the defense on the next attempt bc they have to account for the pass with more emphasis if we actually pass out of that formation...

tuck&rolle
08-19-2012, 04:43 PM
i was a little unclear in the point that we could still pass out of the heavy run formations. i wouldnt want to line up in shotgun on 3rd or 4th and short. occasionally i would but for the most part i'd line up eye formation, one wideout, two te's. and then either PA or do a quick 3 step drop pass...even an incomplete opens up the defense on the next attempt bc they have to account for the pass with more emphasis if we actually pass out of that formation...

This is sensible. We all know what Gilbride loves to do from the shotgun lol

nycsportzfan
08-19-2012, 05:21 PM
bump. what do u guys think, go to the pass more in these situations? The bottom line is its almost impossible to stop this team through the air to often.. I wish they would stop fighting themselves on what works and just go with it. Ur 3best offensive weapons are a QB and 2 WR's for godsake..lol Of course u use the run, but using it by mixing in timely runs is 100pct obviously the way to go..

jomo
08-19-2012, 05:27 PM
i was a little unclear in the point that we could still pass out of the heavy run formations. i wouldnt want to line up in shotgun on 3rd or 4th and short. occasionally i would but for the most part i'd line up eye formation, one wideout, two te's. and then either PA or do a quick 3 step drop pass...even an incomplete opens up the defense on the next attempt bc they have to account for the pass with more emphasis if we actually pass out of that formation...That would insure single coverage on the single wideout, making it an even easier scenario for Eli and either Nicks or Cruz.

giantsfan420
08-19-2012, 06:22 PM
That would insure single coverage on the single wideout, making it an even easier scenario for Eli and either Nicks or Cruz.

thats a helluva reason to look into doing it more. a simple slant or incut on a short yardage run defense can turn into 6 real fast. also, the safeties cheat up as well leaving a lot of field over the top completely open. we've done it before some. i remember a crucial 4th down a few years ago where we went deep to toomer and caught the d completely off guard...
my thing is, we saw how low the conversion rate was when trying to get it on the ground...why not put the ball in elis hands in those crucial, critical situations? we have the targets to really take advantage of a defense that is keying on the run heavily...

the one thing that may be why we don't do it, is perhaps the coaches feel that if the OL can't run block to convert on a 1 yd situation, they also can't protect eli...and with all those guys on the LOS, an OLmen missing his assignment leads to a bunch of defenders running free at eli...