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View Full Version : The Chickens' come home to roost!



B&RWarrior
08-21-2012, 12:53 PM
I think this year is the first year where our lack of investment of first round talent or impact free agents will dramatically impact our O-line's performance. The running game will struggle and I think we will begin to see the pass protection struggle as well this year. Hopefully I'm wrong and we can defend our title, but my gut tells me the O-line is our Achilles heel.


I think if Eli's stats fo fown this yeat it will be due to his sub-par line. I think last years Eli was not a flash in the pan. He has become an elite QB. I still don't think he is as good as pre-injury Peyton, Rodgers, or Brady, but he is elite Before last year you couldn't say that.

GiantVibes
08-21-2012, 12:55 PM
I think this year is the first year where our lack of investment of first round talent or impact free agents will dramatically impact our performance.

:confused:

B&RWarrior
08-21-2012, 01:01 PM
:confused:

I meant to say our O-line's performance. If we win another ring they can play crappy all day long. LOL!

Morehead State
08-21-2012, 01:25 PM
I think this year is the first year where our lack of investment of first round talent or impact free agents will dramatically impact our O-line's performance. The running game will struggle and I think we will begin to see the pass protection struggle as well this year. Hopefully I'm wrong and we can defend our title, but my gut tells me the O-line is our Achilles heel.


I think if Eli's stats fo fown this yeat it will be due to his sub-par line. I think last years Eli was not a flash in the pan. He has become an elite QB. I still don't think he is as good as pre-injury Peyton, Rodgers, or Brady, but he is elite Before last year you couldn't say that.

Well they're roosting with 2 SB rings in 5 years.

BigBlue1971
08-21-2012, 01:29 PM
why would you think these things?

superbowl champions along with the superbowl mvp.....if anything i think they improved over last year!

MattMeyerBud
08-21-2012, 01:30 PM
I think this year is the first year where our lack of investment of first round talent or impact free agents will dramatically impact our O-line's performance. The running game will struggle and I think we will begin to see the pass protection struggle as well this year. Hopefully I'm wrong and we can defend our title, but my gut tells me the O-line is our Achilles heel.


I think if Eli's stats fo fown this yeat it will be due to his sub-par line. I think last years Eli was not a flash in the pan. He has become an elite QB. I still don't think he is as good as pre-injury Peyton, Rodgers, or Brady, but he is elite Before last year you couldn't say that.

even if we do have a down year, we have 2 rings in 6 years... get over it lol...

B&RWarrior
08-21-2012, 01:32 PM
Well they're roosting with 2 SB rings in 5 years.

Last years SB ring was in spite of the O-line's play not because of it. Eventually you have to address areas of weakness.

B&RWarrior
08-21-2012, 01:34 PM
why would you think these things?

superbowl champions along with the superbowl mvp.....if anything i think they improved over last year!

THe OL has not improved. I say these things becuase they are the truth. If it makes you feel better I could lie and say we have no weaknesses.

B&RWarrior
08-21-2012, 01:34 PM
even if we do have a down year, we have 2 rings in 6 years... get over it lol...

great analysis LOL!

Morehead State
08-21-2012, 02:36 PM
Last years SB ring was in spite of the O-line's play not because of it. Eventually you have to address areas of weakness.
Your implication is that we should have drafted O linemen high instead of the players we drafted. OK fine. What O tackles were available to us instead of Hakeem Nicks in 2009, or instead of JPP in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our SB win last year. The answer is NOBODY. I looked at those drafts. Unless Brian Bulaga or Mike Iupata are better players than those two current Giants. We did draft Will Beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of SB wins. THATS the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new NFL. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted Bulaga, then you don't get JPP. Its a simple as that I say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have.

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 02:40 PM
Well they're roosting with 2 SB rings in 5 years.

Super Bowl rings are no replacement for drafting a good offensive lineman!

davepc
08-21-2012, 02:49 PM
We had one of the worst offensive lines in the leauge last year and won the superbowl.

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 02:50 PM
We had one of the worst offensive lines in the leauge last year and won the superbowl.

How could that be? Luck?

davepc
08-21-2012, 02:52 PM
How could that be? Luck?

The quarterback is really really good and adjusting to pressure and getting the ball out of his hand quickly.

GameTime
08-21-2012, 02:55 PM
How could that be? Luck?
of course it was luck Ro. Just ask Clay Matthews, the Niners, and various other notable players in the league......

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 02:56 PM
The quarterback is really really good and adjusting to pressure and getting the ball out of his hand quickly.

Wasn't that the line that went sack-less for a record five games???

Dwinsballgames
08-21-2012, 02:59 PM
Your implication is that we should have drafted O linemen high instead of the players we drafted. OK fine. What O tackles were available to us instead of Hakeem Nicks in 2009, or instead of JPP in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our SB win last year. The answer is NOBODY. I looked at those drafts. Unless Brian Bulaga or Mike Iupata are better players than those two current Giants. We did draft Will Beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of SB wins. THATS the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new NFL. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted Bulaga, then you don't get JPP. Its a simple as that I say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have.

Yeah, but what about the chickens....you know...roosting and all?
Seriously, MS, great post!

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 03:00 PM
of course it was luck Ro. Just ask Clay Matthews, the Niners, and various other notable players in the league......

DAYUM.......They're right after all

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 03:02 PM
Yeah, but what about the chickens....you know...roosting and all?
Seriously, MS, great post!

Anything involving barnyard animals is obscene :p

davepc
08-21-2012, 03:08 PM
Wasn't that the line that went sack-less for a record five games???

The stats don't lie.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Diehl was the worst tackle in all of football last year.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/

mcillo
08-21-2012, 03:16 PM
Your implication is that we should have drafted O linemen high instead of the players we drafted. OK fine. What O tackles were available to us instead of Hakeem Nicks in 2009, or instead of JPP in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our SB win last year. The answer is NOBODY. I looked at those drafts. Unless Brian Bulaga or Mike Iupata are better players than those two current Giants. We did draft Will Beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of SB wins. THATS the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new NFL. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted Bulaga, then you don't get JPP. Its a simple as that I say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have. Gabe Carimi in 2011 6`7 320 lbs. I wouild have picked him up .

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 03:24 PM
The stats don't lie.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Diehl was the worst tackle in all of football last year.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/

And yet we won the Super Bowl. Proving, to me, it's a total team effort that wins the day...and the trophy

nhpgiantsfan
08-21-2012, 03:45 PM
I won't lie, I really, really, wanted Mike Pouncey last year before Miami grabbed him. Although we still would've had our problems at tackle right now.

ImElectric2
08-21-2012, 03:49 PM
I remember in 2000 our line was supposed to be awful going into the season with an aging lomas brown and again in 2002 or 2003 it was supposed to be awful as well. Went to the super bowl and should have at least advanced in the playoffs in each year respectively. WR was supposed to be awful last year. Preseason didn't give much hope for that either. Well be fine. Every team has a weakness, as long as we can exploit theirs and protect ours well be just fine. This team knows how to win now and that's something we couldn't say for a long time.

davepc
08-21-2012, 04:00 PM
And yet we won the Super Bowl. Proving, to me, it's a total team effort that wins the day...and the trophy

When you have a great quaterback it covers up a lot of holes.

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 04:01 PM
When you have a great quaterback it covers up a lot of holes.

True enough, but we also had great receivers and, at the end, a damn good defense.

Morehead State
08-21-2012, 04:41 PM
The stats don't lie.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Diehl was the worst tackle in all of football last year.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/
Stats lie ALL THE TIME in the NFL.
If they didn't, Vinny Testeverde and Kerry Collins would be shoe ins for the Hall of Fame.

Morehead State
08-21-2012, 04:45 PM
When you have a great quaterback it covers up a lot of holes.
Its been 10 years since a team won a SB WITHOUT a QB destined for the Hall of Fame.

rainierjef
08-21-2012, 07:23 PM
And yet we won the Super Bowl. Proving, to me, it's a total team effort that wins the day...and the trophy

it is a team first sport you are right, but you have to admit that not getting great talent at O-Line in the draft or through free agency is starting to show in the play of this O-Line. i don't think the OP is trying to negate the drafting that jerry has done. and while i understand all teams have weaknesses, we have a 100 mil franchise QB under center and this line might get him hurt this year if.
A. they can't run block so eli has the throw the ball more
or
B. they just can't block and we see the San fran NFCCG replay 4-5 times this year during the regular season.

i think we are getting to comfortable with the bandaid, its all good until that adhesive wears off, then what RO?



*test

Sarcasman
08-21-2012, 07:28 PM
Your implication is that we should have drafted O linemen high instead of the players we drafted. OK fine. What O tackles were available to us instead of Hakeem Nicks in 2009, or instead of JPP in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our SB win last year. The answer is NOBODY. I looked at those drafts. Unless Brian Bulaga or Mike Iupata are better players than those two current Giants. We did draft Will Beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of SB wins. THATS the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new NFL. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted Bulaga, then you don't get JPP. Its a simple as that I say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have.

And...end of thhread.

TheEnigma
08-21-2012, 07:30 PM
Stats lie ALL THE TIME in the NFL.
If they didn't, Vinny Testeverde and Kerry Collins would be shoe ins for the Hall of Fame.

How are these stats misleading? Do you think PFF has some agenda against David Diehl and a love affair for Ahmad Bradshaw (best ranked pass blocking RB in the league)? Looking at the Pressure Allowed, Hits, and Dropbacks along with sacks gives a better interpretation to an offensive linemen's ability than simply "only 2 sacks allowed". Stats are good if you properly analyze them. If the Giants could develop a run game and not have to rely on the deep pass so much, then we could utilize the short and intermediate passing game on a more frequent basis and thus, less 7 step dropbacks and less pressure allowed by the offensive line.

Sarcasman
08-21-2012, 07:31 PM
The stats don't lie.




Of course not.

That's why - statistically - the average human being has one breast and one testicle.

Because stats never lie.

rainierjef
08-21-2012, 07:43 PM
How are these stats misleading? Do you think PFF has some agenda against David Diehl and a love affair for Ahmad Bradshaw (best ranked pass blocking RB in the league)? Looking at the Pressure Allowed, Hits, and Dropbacks along with sacks gives a better interpretation to an offensive linemen's ability than simply "only 2 sacks allowed". Stats are good if you properly analyze them. If the Giants could develop a run game and not have to rely on the deep pass so much, then we could utilize the short and intermediate passing game on a more frequent basis and thus, less 7 step dropbacks and less pressure allowed by the offensive line.
also
Less interceptions
the ability to use all levels of the field would create running lanes for the RB's and the Play action would flourish as well

rainierjef
08-21-2012, 07:44 PM
Of course not.

That's why - statistically - the average human being has one breast and one testicle.

Because stats never lie.

im lost....

derekunion28
08-21-2012, 07:46 PM
wow i have two breasts and two testicles.....i beat the average.....woot

fansince69
08-21-2012, 07:50 PM
im lost....

I am not sure how you are lost...but I am also not sure how his statement is relevant....... although it does show that stats can be misleading if they are not interpreted right

davepc
08-21-2012, 07:51 PM
Of course not.

That's why - statistically - the average human being has one breast and one testicle.

Because stats never lie.

What an idiotic non sequitur. Do you have an actual point?

TheEnigma
08-21-2012, 07:54 PM
also
Less interceptions
the ability to use all levels of the field would create running lanes for the RB's and the Play action would flourish as well

I was actually thinking about the "whole package/balanced" offense thing some today in regards to our offense compared to the Eagles. They have the O-line and RB to consistently feature a top 5 running game featuring McCoy and then utilize intermediate passes to Maclin and Celek and the deep ball to DeSean. Instead, they're (As in Reid and Vick) are so enamored by the deep passing game that they don't use their offense to it's full potential like they could.

On the other hand, the Giants coaching staff understands the important of a balanced offense but it's looking more to me like we don't have the personnel on the offensive line to achieve such a goal. With a cerebral QB and two stud receivers in Nicks and Cruz, we would be better off using spread formations than relying on runs up the middle like we want to.

Just something I thought was interesting.

nycisgreat
08-21-2012, 09:08 PM
I think this year is the first year where our lack of investment of first round talent or impact free agents will dramatically impact our O-line's performance. The running game will struggle and I think we will begin to see the pass protection struggle as well this year. Hopefully I'm wrong and we can defend our title, but my gut tells me the O-line is our Achilles heel.


I think if Eli's stats fo fown this yeat it will be due to his sub-par line. I think last years Eli was not a flash in the pan. He has become an elite QB. I still don't think he is as good as pre-injury Peyton, Rodgers, or Brady, but he is elite Before last year you couldn't say that.

I think you should go back to sleep.

BuffyBlueII
08-21-2012, 09:24 PM
Our offensive line is miserable. Last season they were at their worst. In the first game against Dallas Cowvoys, DeMarcus Ware was in our back field all night. If Eli Manning didn't have such great awareness, DeMarcus Ware would have had six sacks that night. If we wanna talk about stats then here one that folks overlook. Eli Manning has to throw the ball away a great deal more than he should because our offensive line can't protect or give him time to throw. His completion percentage has sufferred throughout his career in large part due to the offensive line.The way NFL is today there are going to weaknesses on all teams. Our are the offensive line, our linebackers and secondary. It is hust how it is and hope to sign and draft well. If the outcome is the same as it was thia past season then I have no issues with it.

RoanokeFan
08-21-2012, 09:42 PM
Your implication is that we should have drafted O linemen high instead of the players we drafted. OK fine. What O tackles were available to us instead of Hakeem Nicks in 2009, or instead of JPP in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our SB win last year. The answer is NOBODY. I looked at those drafts. Unless Brian Bulaga or Mike Iupata are better players than those two current Giants. We did draft Will Beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of SB wins. THATS the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new NFL. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted Bulaga, then you don't get JPP. Its a simple as that I say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have.


When you're right, you are RIGHT!

FourthAndOne
08-21-2012, 10:31 PM
You can't blame him for having concerns about the Oline - it didn't look good last year. The NFC East has a whole bunch of good pass rushers, and we play the AFC North this year, which also has a whole bunch of good pass rushers.

Seriously, this whole "We won the SB with that OLine, it's fine" thing doesn't make any sense. I guess we should've resigned Ross, released TT, and release a whole bunch of our backup CBs, because hey, we won the damn SB with that group.

Dwinsballgames
08-21-2012, 10:32 PM
What an idiotic non sequitur. Do you have an actual point?

just because you don't understand the point doesn't make it non sequitur. He was demonstrating how statistics can be misleading on the most basic level. When he said stats never lie, he was being sarcastic, Shocking, I know.

Mercury
08-21-2012, 10:36 PM
What an idiotic non sequitur. Do you have an actual point?

I think he is trying to say that the average human has one female breast and one testicle. You see now? Stats can be lies, because the average person is not described by these stats, even though they are technically true. Get it?

davepc
08-21-2012, 10:41 PM
How could anybody whose ever taken even a high school level stats class suggest that statistics would show the average human has one breast/testicle? The population that has only one or none is so small to be statistically insignificant.

Since almost every male has two testicles any statistical representation of the average number of testicles of a human male would be much closer to 2 then it would be to 1.

It's a totally illogical point on every level.

Dwinsballgames
08-21-2012, 10:52 PM
How could anybody whose ever taken even a high school level stats class suggest that statistics would show the average human has one breast/testicle? The population that has only one or none is so small to be statistically insignificant.

Since almost every male has two testicles any statistical representation of the average number of testicles of a human male would be much closer to 2 then it would be to 1.

It's a totally illogical point on every level.

SIGH,

men have 2 testicles and women have 2 breasts (I know men have breasts too, but he meant female breasts). As half the population are men and half are women, it could be statistically interpreted that the average human has one of each.

TheEnigma
08-21-2012, 10:53 PM
Stats don't tell the entire story BUT they do make the picture a little more clear for comparisons.

Example - When I look at PFF's ranking of Pass Blocking Efficiency for Offensive Tackles the last 3 years, it shows me that David Diehl has the worst average in the league. Total snaps are taken in consideration and then it breaks down the Pressure Allowed, Hits, and Sacks. At this point, I think to myself "I obviously don't have the time to look at each of his snaps like PFF but from the games I've watched and film (highlights or rewatching) I've reviewed, does this sound accurate?"

Considering Eli had constant pressure from opposing pass rushers and was forced to throw earlier than he wanted on numerous occasions, I'm inclined to believe these statistics are sufficient enough to tell me "DD is not even an average OL player anymore."

Morehead State
08-21-2012, 11:02 PM
How are these stats misleading? Do you think PFF has some agenda against David Diehl and a love affair for Ahmad Bradshaw (best ranked pass blocking RB in the league)? Looking at the Pressure Allowed, Hits, and Dropbacks along with sacks gives a better interpretation to an offensive linemen's ability than simply "only 2 sacks allowed". Stats are good if you properly analyze them. If the Giants could develop a run game and not have to rely on the deep pass so much, then we could utilize the short and intermediate passing game on a more frequent basis and thus, less 7 step dropbacks and less pressure allowed by the offensive line.
Because more than any unit on the field, the offensive line functions as a team.
Individual O line "stats" (which is as dumb as anything I can think of) are meaningless.
I mean really......."stats" for O linemen?..... .Some media people have too much time on their hands.

giantsfan420
08-21-2012, 11:21 PM
Stats don't tell the entire story BUT they do make the picture a little more clear for comparisons.

Example - When I look at PFF's ranking of Pass Blocking Efficiency for Offensive Tackles the last 3 years, it shows me that David Diehl has the worst average in the league. Total snaps are taken in consideration and then it breaks down the Pressure Allowed, Hits, and Sacks. At this point, I think to myself "I obviously don't have the time to look at each of his snaps like PFF but from the games I've watched and film (highlights or rewatching) I've reviewed, does this sound accurate?"

Considering Eli had constant pressure from opposing pass rushers and was forced to throw earlier than he wanted on numerous occasions, I'm inclined to believe these statistics are sufficient enough to tell me "DD is not even an average OL player anymore."

that should read "as a LT"...he is going to be a solid RT imho. this is gonna be a resurgence year for DD. He could prob give us a couple good years as a RT. he has the toughness, desire, and technical ability. he doesnt have the lateral agility anymore. he never did really, but now its severely hurting us. At RT, the need for lateral agility is reduced bc if the player DD is playing takes off upfield dramatically like Osi lets say, Eli can see that and step and slide in the pocket everytime. where as DD as a LT, its elis blindside, and often he couldnt feel the pressure bc it was getting there instantly. DD will be fine as a RT, we may even see the run game improve and be near that level it was a few years ago on the right side.

rainierjef
08-21-2012, 11:23 PM
I am not sure how you are lost...but I am also not sure how his statement is relevant....... although it does show that stats can be misleading if they are not interpreted right

so.... you have one testicle and one breast?

giantsfan420
08-21-2012, 11:23 PM
if lockler can manage, the OL should at least give us good pass protection. I think DD at RT will actually improve the run game. he's still a pretty solid run blocker. him and snee could be a good tandem

Roosevelt
08-21-2012, 11:28 PM
that should read "as a LT"...he is going to be a solid RT imho. this is gonna be a resurgence year for DD. He could prob give us a couple good years as a RT. he has the toughness, desire, and technical ability. he doesnt have the lateral agility anymore. he never did really, but now its severely hurting us. At RT, the need for lateral agility is reduced bc if the player DD is playing takes off upfield dramatically like Osi lets say, Eli can see that and step and slide in the pocket everytime. where as DD as a LT, its elis blindside, and often he couldnt feel the pressure bc it was getting there instantly. DD will be fine as a RT, we may even see the run game improve and be near that level it was a few years ago on the right side.

How do you explain the Giants replacing DD with Kareem after he played RT?

bringsimmsback
08-21-2012, 11:51 PM
The stats don't lie.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Diehl was the worst tackle in all of football last year.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-1/


How do Chad Clifton and Tony Pashos grade out? I would look it up myself but it seems like you need a subscription to look up individual players (or I could just be a dumb-@$$.)

Pashos is a right tackle but he graded out well in passing on one of those links. Would love to know how he graded out at run blocking considering he played injured for a part of the year.

BTW- the OP has valid concerns even if his implied criticism of the Giant'f front office is off. Looking forward though, are there any quick fixes other than A. hoping someone good gets cut in a couple weeks or B. praying everyone on the line does better than we expect?

Are Clifton and Pashos upgrades and can we can afford them if they are?

TheEnigma
08-21-2012, 11:58 PM
Because more than any unit on the field, the offensive line functions as a team.
Individual O line "stats" (which is as dumb as anything I can think of) are meaningless.
I mean really......."stats" for O linemen?..... .Some media people have too much time on their hands.

So you think DD's play the last 3 years is more so the rest of the O-line not doing as well? What do you see from him in recent days that gives you the confidence in his abilities as a pass protector?

How is it the rest of the O-line's fault when a tackle gets beat on the edge because his footwork is lacking or when he doesn't have sufficient agility?

Mathematics can be applied to anything, even the O-line. When used properly, it helps us analyze and dissect our favorite players even further. I'll be the first to admit that I wish we could also see the amount of time the Giants offensive tackles are in pass protection per snap versus say...the Eagles or Cowboys tackles. It would give us an even better idea of who is better and who isn't.

TheEnigma
08-22-2012, 12:00 AM
that should read "as a LT"...he is going to be a solid RT imho. this is gonna be a resurgence year for DD. He could prob give us a couple good years as a RT. he has the toughness, desire, and technical ability. he doesnt have the lateral agility anymore. he never did really, but now its severely hurting us. At RT, the need for lateral agility is reduced bc if the player DD is playing takes off upfield dramatically like Osi lets say, Eli can see that and step and slide in the pocket everytime. where as DD as a LT, its elis blindside, and often he couldnt feel the pressure bc it was getting there instantly. DD will be fine as a RT, we may even see the run game improve and be near that level it was a few years ago on the right side.

I can agree with this line of thinking. Not sure if I agree with you on how much his individual performance will improve but I think it will and as a result of the move to RT, the LT spot can only improve if the statistically worst Tackle in the NFL is no longer there.

giantsfan420
08-22-2012, 01:49 AM
How do you explain the Giants replacing DD with Kareem after he played RT?
dont know that was then this is now. KMac ended up being a beast RT wouldnt you say? He'd replace virtually any RT...DD aint gonna be KMac in his prime either...he will just do better than he did at LT imho

nhpgiantsfan
08-22-2012, 09:38 AM
How do you explain the Giants replacing DD with Kareem after he played RT?

Oh please, he played one season at RT, his 2nd year in the league, and then he spent 2 years at LG before being promoted to LT. KMac was a really good RT when they brought him in here, and was a very good Giant. So its not like the brought KMac here because DD sucked. They brought in the best available offensive lineman that was available and moved DD to another position on the line. Then gave him the most important position on the line and they won the SB his first year there.

B&RWarrior
08-22-2012, 11:58 AM
Your implication is that we should have drafted O linemen high instead of the players we drafted. OK fine. What O tackles were available to us instead of Hakeem Nicks in 2009, or instead of JPP in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our SB win last year. The answer is NOBODY. I looked at those drafts. Unless Brian Bulaga or Mike Iupata are better players than those two current Giants. We did draft Will Beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of SB wins. THATS the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new NFL. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted Bulaga, then you don't get JPP. Its a simple as that I say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have.

The draft is not the only source of players. Free agency is used to address needs in our system where we draft for the best player available. We haven't done a good job of getting impact free agents to sure up the offensive line. Bass has been an utter dissappointment, though I will reserve ultimate judgment for at least one more year.

Will Beatty is the highest we've gone for an offensive linemen- the bottom of the second round. If your going to use that strategy you need to eventually bring in big name O-line talent. Remember the 07' SB was in large part because of the prowess of our O-line which hasbeen on a steady decline since 2008. Historically a big part of the TC football philosophy is a strong O-line so I'm surprised we haven't addressed the issue with more than late round picks.

I will agree with you that you can't find any fault with the Nicks or JPP picks. That still leaves a few other picks we could have used on Oline. I'm really not saying we are doing anything wrong- with 2 SBs in 5 years that would be a poor argument. I'm saying I think the lack of investment in O-line talent will show up this year. Beatty is serviceable when healthy. The rest are on the decline and Bass needs to prove he is worth that fat contract. Why this is important is b/c Eli is hittng his stride and we have a window for the next 2-3 years I think where we can dominate the NFL on both sides of the ball.

giantsfan420
08-22-2012, 12:02 PM
The draft is not the only source of players. Free agency is used to address needs in our system where we draft for the best player available. We haven't done a good job of getting impact free agents to sure up the offensive line. Bass has been an utter dissappointment, though I will reserve ultimate judgment for at least one more year.

Will Beatty is the highest we've gone for an offensive linemen- the bottom of the second round. If your going to use that strategy you need to eventually bring in big name O-line talent. Remember the 07' SB was in large part because of the prowess of our O-line which hasbeen on a steady decline since 2008. Historically a big part of the TC football philosophy is a strong O-line so I'm surprised we haven't addressed the issue with more than late round picks.

I will agree with you that you can't find any fault with the Nicks or JPP picks. That still leaves a few other picks we could have used on Oline. I'm really not saying we are doing anything wrong- with 2 SBs in 5 years that would be a poor argument. I'm saying I think the lack of investment in O-line talent will show up this year. Beatty is serviceable when healthy. The rest are on the decline and Bass needs to prove he is worth that fat contract. Why this is important is b/c Eli is hittng his stride and we have a window for the next 2-3 years I think where we can dominate the NFL on both sides of the ball.

that 2008 OL was made up of all mid to late round picks and low key FA signings (aside from snee) tho, just like the one we got now. we just need the players to gel and step up

B&RWarrior
08-22-2012, 12:21 PM
Super Bowl rings are no replacement for drafting a good offensive lineman!

I'm dissappointed in you RF. The hallmark of every great organization is continuous improvement. I thought you would know this above most posters. It's how you turn a great season into a dynasty. Make no mistake we have dynasty potential. Bellicheck doesn't count his rings or polish his trophies he get's ready for the next year and he addresses weaknesses. It's why every year the Pats are in the hunt.

The post says that this year will be the first year that we will see poor performance from our O-line- nothing more. While the line run blocking was poor last year the pass blocking was mediocre at worst. It was not as bad as people say it was. Yet I still feel we didn't get all we could of out of our Oline free agent pick ups. I'm not complaining about our strategy, I'm looking forward to what will help us win the next SB. My trophy polish is back on the shelf and my mind is on greatness as your's should be. G-men for life.

njg85m
08-22-2012, 12:25 PM
of course it was luck Ro. Just ask Clay Matthews, the Niners, and various other notable players in the league......
Don't forget Rob Gronkowski and Wes Welker.

B&RWarrior
08-22-2012, 12:28 PM
that 2008 OL was made up of all mid to late round picks and low key FA signings (aside from snee) tho, just like the one we got now. we just need the players to gel and step up

That's my fear is that they believe this to be a valid strategy. I don't know. You can't knock our success so far, but with Eli becoming an elite QB I'd like to always have a good line in front of him. I think he's becoming a QB that doesn't need great WRs he just needs time to "throw the receiver open", that's no knock on Nicks and Cruz. He's not there yet but that's were he's going. A QB like that you wan't to keep a good line in front of. Last year was great, but I don't think we can win like that consistently- referring to all the crazy comebacks and lack of a running game.

MattMeyerBud
08-22-2012, 01:12 PM
great analysis LOL!

Moorehead gave u the in depth analysis, i gave you the common sense sum up.

If we had a down year this year, we just accomplished THEE goal the year before. So obviously we have been doing something right.

And i didn't see if u responded to Moorehead yet but I mean look at all of our first round picks of recent years, who are u upset that we drafted instead of an OLineman? JPP, Nicks, or Prince?

Moke
08-22-2012, 01:17 PM
I love the sarcasm in this thread!

Roosevelt
08-22-2012, 01:23 PM
Oh please, he played one season at RT, his 2nd year in the league, and then he spent 2 years at LG before being promoted to LT. KMac was a really good RT when they brought him in here, and was a very good Giant. So its not like the brought KMac here because DD sucked. They brought in the best available offensive lineman that was available and moved DD to another position on the line. Then gave him the most important position on the line and they won the SB his first year there.

I beleive he played more than one season at RT even if it wasn't another full season. The bottom line is if he looked good we wouldn't have signed KMac.

Now if it was simply him being young, that's one thing, but he got beat repeatedly at RT in pass blocking situations. Sort of like KMac this past season.

Roosevelt
08-22-2012, 01:36 PM
The draft is not the only source of players. Free agency is used to address needs in our system where we draft for the best player available. We haven't done a good job of getting impact free agents to sure up the offensive line. Bass has been an utter dissappointment, though I will reserve ultimate judgment for at least one more year.

Will Beatty is the highest we've gone for an offensive linemen- the bottom of the second round. If your going to use that strategy you need to eventually bring in big name O-line talent. Remember the 07' SB was in large part because of the prowess of our O-line which hasbeen on a steady decline since 2008. Historically a big part of the TC football philosophy is a strong O-line so I'm surprised we haven't addressed the issue with more than late round picks.

I will agree with you that you can't find any fault with the Nicks or JPP picks. That still leaves a few other picks we could have used on Oline. I'm really not saying we are doing anything wrong- with 2 SBs in 5 years that would be a poor argument. I'm saying I think the lack of investment in O-line talent will show up this year. Beatty is serviceable when healthy. The rest are on the decline and Bass needs to prove he is worth that fat contract. Why this is important is b/c Eli is hittng his stride and we have a window for the next 2-3 years I think where we can dominate the NFL on both sides of the ball.

Man, you're acting like we haven't won 2 SB's in 5 years.

True our line had trouble run blocking, but we were pretty good at pass blocking. Last I checked our pass game racked up a **** load of yards. And that ain't happening unless Eli is given time to throw.

David Bass should not be judged solely on the lock-out shortened off-season. Let's see what the man does this year before we make a call on that move.

Perhaps our front office deserves a little more credit than you are giving them?

giantsfan420
08-22-2012, 02:19 PM
That's my fear is that they believe this to be a valid strategy. I don't know. You can't knock our success so far, but with Eli becoming an elite QB I'd like to always have a good line in front of him. I think he's becoming a QB that doesn't need great WRs he just needs time to "throw the receiver open", that's no knock on Nicks and Cruz. He's not there yet but that's were he's going. A QB like that you wan't to keep a good line in front of. Last year was great, but I don't think we can win like that consistently- referring to all the crazy comebacks and lack of a running game.

oh i agree, if it were up to me, Eli would have the best OL money could buy. If he had Brady protection, my goodness...

Roosevelt
08-22-2012, 02:29 PM
oh i agree, if it were up to me, Eli would have the best OL money could buy. If he had Brady protection, my goodness...

...his first pass attempt in the Super Bowl might have led to safety. ;)

Sarcasman
08-22-2012, 04:24 PM
wow i have two breasts and two testicles.....i beat the average.....woot

Hey there, fella....

Sarcasman
08-22-2012, 04:30 PM
just because you don't understand the point doesn't make it non sequitur. He was demonstrating how statistics can be misleading on the most basic level. When he said stats never lie, he was being sarcastic, Shocking, I know.

Thanks Dwins...I admire your willingness to take this on. Nothing I've seen indicates that it will be worth your effort but thanks nonetheless.

Sarcasman
08-22-2012, 04:33 PM
How could anybody whose ever taken even a high school level stats class suggest that statistics would show the average human has one breast/testicle? The population that has only one or none is so small to be statistically insignificant.

Since almost every male has two testicles any statistical representation of the average number of testicles of a human male would be much closer to 2 then it would be to 1.

It's a totally illogical point on every level.


Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

giantsfan420
08-22-2012, 04:35 PM
...his first pass attempt in the Super Bowl might have led to safety. ;)

thats a poor choice on ur part. he actually did have a ton of time. he just couldnt find anyone. all the wrs were well into their routes and covered. It wasnt as if pressure overwhelmed NE OL and Brady...

Captain Chaos
08-22-2012, 06:53 PM
Your implication is that we should have drafted O linemen high instead of the players we drafted. OK fine. What O tackles were available to us instead of Hakeem Nicks in 2009, or instead of JPP in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our SB win last year. The answer is NOBODY. I looked at those drafts. Unless Brian Bulaga or Mike Iupata are better players than those two current Giants. We did draft Will Beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of SB wins. THATS the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new NFL. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted Bulaga, then you don't get JPP. Its a simple as that I say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have.

Excellent point, would add Prince to that list as well; however, we need to find "the real Left Tackle"!!!!

Morehead State
08-22-2012, 09:58 PM
So you think DD's play the last 3 years is more so the rest of the O-line not doing as well? What do you see from him in recent days that gives you the confidence in his abilities as a pass protector?

How is it the rest of the O-line's fault when a tackle gets beat on the edge because his footwork is lacking or when he doesn't have sufficient agility?

Mathematics can be applied to anything, even the O-line. When used properly, it helps us analyze and dissect our favorite players even further. I'll be the first to admit that I wish we could also see the amount of time the Giants offensive tackles are in pass protection per snap versus say...the Eagles or Cowboys tackles. It would give us an even better idea of who is better and who isn't.

Thats not what I said. My point is that stats for O linemen are a rediculous standard. Was DD good last year?........ Not really. Do a review of stats that "don't lie", prove that he was the worst LT in the NFL? ...... Absolutely not.
There are too many other factors to the success of any O lineman. As I said, O lines work as a team.
What it comes down to is that I'm sick of the "David Diehl is the worst LT in the NFL" crap. He's been an outstanding Giant for a great many years and we've won 2 SB's with him at LT. That is truly a "stat that doesn't lie".

BROADWAYSTORM
08-22-2012, 10:10 PM
your implication is that we should have drafted o linemen high instead of the players we drafted. Ok fine. What o tackles were available to us instead of hakeem nicks in 2009, or instead of jpp in 2010. Both those players were indespensible to us in our sb win last year. The answer is nobody. I looked at those drafts. Unless brian bulaga or mike iupata are better players than those two current giants. We did draft will beatty who was talked about in the first round and we got him at the end of the second. He just can't stay on the field.

Point is that we draft to the best players. And we've drafted good enough for a couple of sb wins. Thats the standard. Every team has holes, thats the new nfl. We have overcome ours to win championships.
When you say that we should have drafted bulaga, then you don't get jpp. Its a simple as that i say we wouldn't have won it last year then.
So maybe you can tell us who we should have drafted and who we shouldn't have.


op got totally owned with this.

Roosevelt
08-22-2012, 10:10 PM
thats a poor choice on ur part. he actually did have a ton of time. he just couldnt find anyone. all the wrs were well into their routes and covered. It wasnt as if pressure overwhelmed NE OL and Brady...

Sorry, I thought he threw it away to avoid a sack by Tuck. It's all good.

TheEnigma
08-22-2012, 11:37 PM
Thats not what I said. My point is that stats for O linemen are a rediculous standard. Was DD good last year?........ Not really. Do a review of stats that "don't lie", prove that he was the worst LT in the NFL? ...... Absolutely not.
There are too many other factors to the success of any O lineman. As I said, O lines work as a team.
What it comes down to is that I'm sick of the "David Diehl is the worst LT in the NFL" crap. He's been an outstanding Giant for a great many years and we've won 2 SB's with him at LT. That is truly a "stat that doesn't lie".

Offensive linemen do work as a team but why should they be exempt from statistics? Defensive linemen also have to work as a team in picking up blockers (primarily the NT) but all of their sacks, tackles, hits, and pressures are still recorded. Do you think they should not have stats applied to them as well?

See, I think what you are seeing in this particular instance is someone using statistics to show how a certain player has been extremely underwhelming the last 3 years when it can also be used to give props to an unknown player. Majority of football fans don't even know 80% of the guys ranked in the top 15 for pass blocking because the NFL fails to give them due credit. Great offensive linemen should be praised for their achievements and become more known while the bad ones deserve more criticism. DD was a fantastic offensive linemen since he entered the league and his reliability will always be remembered but for the last 3 years, his individual play has been lacking. Perhaps calling him the worst tacke in the NFL is too far since the stats are so close together but he is on the bottom for a reason.

What it comes down to is that you and I have different philosophies in discussing offensive linemen and that's fine. I can't agree with you at all on giving him a pass because "we won 2 SB's with him". Championship teams have their share of lackluster players if you look hard enough and while DD was money early on in his career, that's simply not the case now. Oh and don't you think that's unfair using the Superbowl argument when you yourself dispute others from using it for Eli?

giantsfan420
08-22-2012, 11:42 PM
Sorry, I thought he threw it away to avoid a sack by Tuck. It's all good.

well then why did tuck himself even say that his role on the play wasnt even to get to brady. he was supposed to open up a lane on a stunt. but he demolished the LG IIRC and just went onto Brady.
Are you really saying that Brady didnt have time on that safety? I wish Eli would get that protection consistently. Brady had like 3 seconds maybe more to throw it...
i know u are never wrong in ur mind, but u did choose a poor example. that safety play, which was awesome, isnt an example of brady not having any time...he did. he just threw it 50 yds past everyone...

Roosevelt
08-23-2012, 12:07 AM
well then why did tuck himself even say that his role on the play wasnt even to get to brady. he was supposed to open up a lane on a stunt. but he demolished the LG IIRC and just went onto Brady.
Are you really saying that Brady didnt have time on that safety? I wish Eli would get that protection consistently. Brady had like 3 seconds maybe more to throw it...
i know u are never wrong in ur mind, but u did choose a poor example. that safety play, which was awesome, isnt an example of brady not having any time...he did. he just threw it 50 yds past everyone...

If Tuck demolished the LG then aren't you acknowledging my position? Brady overthrew everyone to avoid a sack in the end-zone. No need to argue this, like I said it's all good. We won.