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View Full Version : I like Kiwi, but Rivers should start at Linebacker



Tmurda1984
08-24-2012, 08:20 PM
I really like the way Kiwi has accepted the role of a hybrid DE/LB but Rivers is a more complete linebacker. Rivers can run with backs and tight ends, while Kiwi does clog up running lanes. Kiwi should just be a Defensive End and stay busy in our NASCAR packages.

Tmurda1984
08-24-2012, 08:21 PM
And this is for when Boley makes a return

GMan-67
08-24-2012, 08:29 PM
both looking good ... nice problem to have ... our front 7 is SCARY

BlueSanta
08-24-2012, 09:38 PM
They do not play the same LB position. The Parts are not that easily interchangable.

RagTime Blue
08-24-2012, 09:40 PM
Kiwi is SAM. Rivers plays the other two, and not even close to DE.

Both are playing very well, it seems, and it's fortunate we can get them both on the field at the same time.

giantsfan420
08-24-2012, 09:41 PM
rivers will start for boley. its a great thing we have rivers stashed away. JR genius strikes again!

DownWitJPP
08-24-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm wondering where Jacquain is gonna play when he comes back?

RagTime Blue
08-24-2012, 09:50 PM
I'm wondering where Jacquain is gonna play when he comes back?

Nickel, Special Teams. Plus filling in on Will if need be.

penguinfarmer
08-24-2012, 09:52 PM
I don't know how anyone watching this game [or even last year] can actually ask Kiwi to take a seat, regardless of what other LBer is in the wings.

GMan-67
08-24-2012, 09:55 PM
well your WISH has come true GREAT ... !!!! . hope you know more than the rest of us

Tmurda1984
08-24-2012, 10:10 PM
well your WISH has come true GREAT ... !!!! . hope you know more than the rest of us


I like Kiwi alot...but I would never want Rivers to start over Kiwi at this price. Its sad to see Kiwi hurt....hes one of my favorite players on this team, Defensive End is his natural position, thats all im saying.

penguinfarmer
08-24-2012, 10:11 PM
Kiwi is a better SLB than DE.

Tmurda1984
08-24-2012, 10:17 PM
Kiwi is a better SLB than DE.

You only think that because our Linebacker situtation is terrible. If Reese would of drafted a real linebacker I bet your perception would change. Its not hard beating out other converted defensive ends like Tracy and Sintim for the past couple of years. Im sorry its the truth.

penguinfarmer
08-24-2012, 10:19 PM
Kiwi has been one of the better run stuffers in the league. He had 14 TFLs last season with only 3.5 sacks. That ranked him up amongst the LB leaders on a team that plays more Nickel. Sorry but those are facts.

Tmurda1984
08-24-2012, 10:27 PM
Kiwi has been one of the better run stuffers in the league. He had 14 TFLs last season with only 3.5 sacks. That ranked him up amongst the LB leaders on a team that plays more Nickel. Sorry but those are facts.

Where is he ranked in pass coverage and then come back to me. Even in my original post I said he good at clogging the running lanes but hes one dimensional. He bites on fakes at times and terrible in coverage, and in the Giants scheme we allow Kiwi to be more aggressive than a traditional 3 down linebacker becausse the coaching staff (which never gets any credit) plays to the strength of their players. I never can understand why this coaching staff is sooo underrated every year. When you can win 2 superbowls with Kiwi at linebacker and Diehl at Left Tackle, your coaching staff deserves more credit than Reese.

penguinfarmer
08-24-2012, 10:29 PM
Do you even know what role Kiwi plays? If you're expecting him to play as a 3 down LBer, then you've lost the argument long before you started it.

BigBlue1971
08-24-2012, 10:32 PM
im certain Fewell has several roles for all defensive players! im looking forward to seeing them all in regular season games. they all appear to be ball hawks!

Tmurda1984
08-24-2012, 10:52 PM
Do you even know what role Kiwi plays? If you're expecting him to play as a 3 down LBer, then you've lost the argument long before you started it.

If you would reread my original post...Thats why I want Rivers starting because he's a complete linebacker. Kiwanuka needs to play his natural position and lets give Rivers and Jacquien Williams a chance to fight for the other linebacker spot. We stop the progress of J. Williams who showed the abiltiy to play in this league. Its absolutely ridiculous.

Redeyejedi
08-24-2012, 11:13 PM
Why is everyone so rigid with positions. We can mix and match to situation.Depth and versatility is a good thing

giantyankee1976
08-24-2012, 11:29 PM
both looking good ... nice problem to have ... our front 7 is SCARY


this. oh man this !

it appears that we will have (potentially) one of the MOST Athletic Defenses in the League. Athleticism and speed.

I like that !

EliManningHBGPA
08-25-2012, 02:01 AM
Not sure who is gonna get less time on the field but I feel it will be really really hard to keep rivers off the field

Rat_bastich
08-25-2012, 02:15 AM
Why is everyone so rigid with positions. We can mix and match to situation.Depth and versatility is a good thing

Here! Here! We have defensive ends that can play tackle and we have linebackers and defensive ends that can moonlight as the other. Heck we even have safeties that can fill in as nickel backs. It's a good situation to be in with so much talent.

BROADWAYSTORM
08-25-2012, 02:37 AM
Rivers closing speed is insane he caught Hester from behind on a reverse and is all over the field sideline to sideline. Man between him, Boley, Herz, Kiwi and Williams we have the most talented LB corps since the early 90's. That's without counting Paysinger who is also a very talented player and guys like Blackburn who are savvy.

juice33s
08-25-2012, 03:48 AM
Kiwi's spot is safe, the real question is which LB the Giants use next to Boley in the Nickel, Jwill or Rivers?....Right now Rivers has the leg up because he's been healthy

TheEnigma
08-25-2012, 03:57 AM
Criticizing a DE who converted to a Strongside Linebacker for his lack of coverage is sort of silly. You'll be hard pressed to find many who can cover TE's effectively. On passing downs with 3 LBs, I imagine the setup would be Jwill at WLB, Boley at MLB, and Rivers at SLB.

Speaking of Jwill, he could end up as our most versatile player on the defensive side of the ball with his skillset.

juice33s
08-25-2012, 04:01 AM
Criticizing a DE who converted to a Strongside Linebacker for his lack of coverage is sort of silly. You'll be hard pressed to find many who can cover TE's effectively. On passing downs with 3 LBs, I imagine the setup would be Jwill at WLB, Boley at MLB, and Rivers at SLB.

Speaking of Jwill, he could end up as our most versatile player on the defensive side of the ball with his skillset.
Thats the thing though, on Passing downs we won't go with 3 LB's...The most used defense formation in the NFL is the Nickel personal which for the Giants would consist of 4 down lineman, 2 LBs, 3 corners and 2 safeties

TheEnigma
08-25-2012, 04:06 AM
Thats the thing though, on Passing downs we won't go with 3 LB's...The most used defense formation in the NFL is the Nickel personal which for the Giants would consist of 4 down lineman, 2 LBs, 3 corners and 2 safeties

Depends on how you look at it. In most cases you would be correct but with a player like JWill who is built more like a big safety versus an actual LBer, I could see packages being built that incorporate all 3 of those guys in. A lot would come down to how beat up our secondary gets at the CB position.

juice33s
08-25-2012, 04:16 AM
Depends on how you look at it. In most cases you would be correct but with a player like JWill who is built more like a big safety versus an actual LBer, I could see packages being built that incorporate all 3 of those guys in. A lot would come down to how beat up our secondary gets at the CB position.
There will be certain situations sure, but for the most part on passing downs they'll use just 2 LB's on the field. Just look at last season. the Giants used 4-2-5 alignment 46% (more then double any other personal package) of the time and thats with run downs included.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/11/fantasy-defensive-personnel-packages-%E2%80%93-part-1/

TheEnigma
08-25-2012, 04:29 AM
There will be certain situations sure, but for the most part on passing downs they'll use just 2 LB's on the field. Just look at last season. the Giants used 4-2-5 alignment 46% (more then double any other personal package) of the time and thats with run downs included.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/04/11/fantasy-defensive-personnel-packages-%E2%80%93-part-1/

No doubt that we'd stick to the 4-2-5 package majority of the time but I think if Rivers continues to play likes this, we could see the nickel % drop. I probably should of mentioned in one of my posts that we might see all 3 of those guys in these packages but at certain times, JWill would technically count as a DB.

To your original question, both men have shown great ability in coverage but I'd have to choose Rivers right now because he has shown better ability in running situations.

juice33s
08-25-2012, 04:37 AM
No doubt that we'd stick to the 4-2-5 package majority of the time but I think if Rivers continues to play likes this, we could see the nickel % drop. I probably should of mentioned in one of my posts that we might see all 3 of those guys in these packages but at certain times, JWill would technically count as a DB.

To your original question, both men have shown great ability in coverage but I'd have to choose Rivers right now because he has shown better ability in running situations.
Okay, say you're right and we use Williams in the third safety role...then who do you take off the field in passing situations (assuming everyone is 100% healthy), webster, TT, Amukamara, Rolle, Phillips?...exactly, none

TheEnigma
08-25-2012, 04:48 AM
Okay, say you're right and we use Williams in the third safety role...then who do you take off the field in passing situations (assuming everyone is 100% healthy), webster, TT, Amukamara, Rolle, Phillips?...exactly, none

How often are TT and Amukamara both healthy? Very rarely if I may say so myself and it's not just about getting your best coverage guys all the time either. JWill offers more versatility than either of those guys since he's shown the ability to also rush the passer standing up if need be.

juice33s
08-25-2012, 04:53 AM
How often are TT and Amukamara both healthy? Very rarely if I may say so myself and it's not just about getting your best coverage guys all the time either. JWill offers more versatility than either of those guys since he's shown the ability to also rush the passer standing up if need be.
Lol in passing situation's it is (which the discussion is all about). And if TT and Amukamara can't go then I'd still rather have Webster and Hosely on the outside with Rolle in the slot and Hill and Phillips at safety. Also I think the Giants have enough pass rushers with JPP, Tuck, osi, Kiwi, Tracy ect

Bottom line is you can't match up a now 240lb LB on a WR and expect to have alot of success

TheEnigma
08-25-2012, 05:05 AM
Lol in passing situation's it is (which the discussion is all about). And if TT and Amukamara can't go then I'd still rather have Webster and Hosely on the outside with Rolle in the slot and Hill and Phillips at safety. Also I think the Giants have enough pass rushers with JPP, Tuck, osi, Kiwi, Tracy ect

Bottom line is you can't match up a now 240lb LB on a WR and expect to have alot of success

Passing situations isn't just about coverage and you know that. Hosley on the outside could be bad depending on the physical attributes of the opposing receiver as well if the guy has about half a foot on him. Rolle is putrid as a slot cornerback and as good as Will Hill looks so far, we haven't seen him work against enough #1s yet.

I'm not saying that JWill is going to rush the passer a good amount of the time but he certainly can be used on blitz plays with better ability than any of our CB's and other than possibly TT, he's better against the run in the scenario that happens as well.

penguinfarmer
08-25-2012, 07:19 AM
If you would reread my original post...Thats why I want Rivers starting because he's a complete linebacker. Kiwanuka needs to play his natural position and lets give Rivers and Jacquien Williams a chance to fight for the other linebacker spot. We stop the progress of J. Williams who showed the abiltiy to play in this league. Its absolutely ridiculous.

And if you knew what role Kiwi played, the SAM position the Giants play is naturally a LB/DE role, and that Kiwi is a better LBer than a DE. It's the old-school strongside backer who lines up inside the TE. His responsibility is to attack the additional blocker like a DE does to an OT. This role alleviates the responsibilities of the MLBer which is in flux for the Giants as well as give the containment role to the safety for which we have two very good guys who can do that.

Rivers in the SAM would become more of a finesse player lining up outside the TE playing the containment, which exposes Blackburn more in the middle. That and Rivers can't dislodge from blocks like Kiwi, nor can he rush like Kiwi when both the TE and RB responsibility have been passed off. If Rivers starts, it will be in place of Boley or Blackburn, not Kiwi.

If you want better pass coverage, you throw in another DB. You don't tamper with what Kiwi has meant for the run D.

Redeyejedi
08-25-2012, 07:28 AM
Passing situations isn't just about coverage and you know that. Hosley on the outside could be bad depending on the physical attributes of the opposing receiver as well if the guy has about half a foot on him. Rolle is putrid as a slot cornerback and as good as Will Hill looks so far, we haven't seen him work against enough #1s yet.

I'm not saying that JWill is going to rush the passer a good amount of the time but he certainly can be used on blitz plays with better ability than any of our CB's and other than possibly TT, he's better against the run in the scenario that happens as well.
Will Hill Has played with the 1's he did last night vs the Bears in the Nickel

Tony Bruno
08-25-2012, 07:34 AM
Glad we have those lbs... Kiwi will prolly see more of the Line this year... I think he is a decent run stopper too,,

Dline83
08-25-2012, 09:13 AM
Situational football guys! Both kiwi and rivers will see the field a lot for us, I thought rivers has looked great in coverage and on running plays, and it will be nice to be able to sub guys in different packages without the offense to be able to guess if we are playing the run or the pass, I think rivers gives us the edge in that department.

Giantslb66
08-25-2012, 10:56 AM
Rivers is flying all over the field. Liking what we're seeing from him.

buster55
08-25-2012, 11:27 AM
I have always felt that KIWI is better at the DE position. He does a nice job against the run when playing LB but I remember most dominant success came when playing full time DE and want him rushing the QB more. Rivers has played very well in these past 3 games. has shown tremendous speed great effort against Hester catching him from behind. Like the depth at linebacker if we are healthy. Where is Boley? Are they just being cautious and Canty too any updates?

jimmie ray
08-25-2012, 11:30 AM
Kiwi doesn't seem a natural fit for either DE or LB, but he can be a big playmaker at any time. Those long arms are great for slapping the ball from the QB, but he's a little light for pushing against a big line on short yardage plays. The D-line is most ferocious when they're rotated, so he should be put in there situationally (3rd and long).