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View Full Version : Who is the better corner Webster or Carr?



Eliscruzzz
08-27-2012, 03:44 PM
I think Webster cause he is our #1 and this is Carr's 1st year as being a #1 imo.

Eliscruzzz
08-27-2012, 03:47 PM
I just want to see what you guys think cause a lot of people I work with are Cowboy fans

NYG4lifeNYK
08-27-2012, 04:14 PM
wow........ it's not even a contest

Carr isn't even a #1.... they paid all that money for a #2

giantsfan420
08-27-2012, 04:30 PM
J.Jones even said himself he overpaid for Carr. Carr is decent I guess. He just plays small imho. I dont think he'll be able to cover nicks or cruz...

titwio
08-27-2012, 04:33 PM
I'm a Giants fan so Webster...But Carr is no slouch.

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 04:42 PM
Ah. An adequate place to finish a conversation from another thread.

I'm going Carr.

I think Carr is much closer to top 10 than Webster is at this point in his career.

Granted, we'll have to see how he will do in the new division, but Webster just has not been impressive since 2008 (a year in which he was dominant).

titwio
08-27-2012, 04:49 PM
^^^ He's been inconsistent a couple of years but has always been above average...

Are you saying Webster wasn't impressive last year?

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 04:51 PM
^^^ He's been inconsistent the last couple of years but has always been above average...

Are you saying Webster wasn't impressive last year?

Not to the standard of 2008 and the high standard in which he's regarded around here. He was one of the most targeted CBs last year with bottom 10 CB on the opposite side of him.

titwio
08-27-2012, 04:56 PM
He's always going to be targeted a lot because he covers the #1 every game. He's not in the Darrelle Revis class so he's going to get thrown at. I don't have the exact metric breakdown of his stats, targets and % last year but even if they weren't as good as 2008, I wouldn't go as far as to say he was unimpressive last season.

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:02 PM
He's always going to be targeted a lot because he covers the #1 every game. He's not in the Darrelle Revis class so he's going to get thrown at. I don't have the exact metric breakdown of his stats, targets and % last year but even if they weren't as good as 2008, I wouldn't go as far as to say he was unimpressive last season.

Fair enough with regard to not being impressed, although I will keep that same stance for his 2009 and 2010 season.

Well, yeah no one is in Revis' class. Which begs the question (since you watch the Giants more than I do) do the Giants actually line up Webster against the best WR on the opposite team every pass play? Because most teams without a Revis don't do that-- and really the Jets don't even do that.

titwio
08-27-2012, 05:08 PM
Don't remember every game but remember he followed Steve Johnson on both sides, Brandon Marshall, Fitz, D-Jax and Jennings...He's been that way since the 07 playoffs as far asI can remember including the SB where he followed Randy Moss everywhere.

The Jets used to do it more before they got Cromartie...But Cro actually matches up better against some receivers so they switch him more now.

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:14 PM
Don't remember every game but remember he followed Steve Johnson on both sides, Brandon Marshall, Fitz, D-Jax and Jennings...He's been that way since the 07 playoffs as far asI can remember including the SB where he followed Randy Moss everywhere.

The Jets used to do it more before they got Cromartie...But Cro actually matches up better against some receivers so they switch him more now.

Again, you watch more Giants games than I do, so I will have to defer to your expertise in the matter. However, I can remember Webster covering Roy Williams (and getting beat) rather than following around our best WR (Miles Austin) in as early as 2009.

I, personally, don't believe it's as simple as sticking Webster on the opposing team's best WR and letting him go at it.

Still I think you have a valid point. Allowing Webster to cover top WRs for the majority of the time could lead to an inflated number of targets.

TheEnigma
08-27-2012, 05:18 PM
Carr will be good but the jump from the AFCW #2s to the NFCE #1s will be a huge jump in talent for him. He might struggle and if he does, it wouldn't be all that surprising.

fansince69
08-27-2012, 05:22 PM
Again, you watch more Giants games than I do, so I will have to defer to your expertise in the matter. However, I can remember Webster covering Roy Williams (and getting beat) rather than following around our best WR (Miles Austin) in as early as 2009.

He follows the other teams best on occasion...it is NOT and every game strategy by any means.....But I have noticed that whoever is opposite him weather tt or ross....they have more balls go there way......I seldom see more than 2-3 balls/game throw toward webster....always exceptions

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:26 PM
He follows the other teams best on occasion...it is NOT and every game strategy by any means.....But I have noticed that whoever is opposite him weather tt or ross....they have more balls go there way......I seldom see more than 2-3 balls/game throw toward webster....always exceptions

He was targeted 108 times. High up on the list for most targeted last year.

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:28 PM
Carr will be good but the jump from the AFCW #2s to the NFCE #1s will be a huge jump in talent for him. He might struggle and if he does, it wouldn't be all that surprising.

Absolutely. New system in which he is going to be forced to be more independent than he has been, switching sides, and is in a new division. We'll really have to see how it goes.

However I would say at this point he's in a better place in his career than Webster. And has been proven to handle his own against tough competition.

fansince69
08-27-2012, 05:29 PM
He was targeted 108 times. High up on the list for most targeted last year.

Not going to argue with the stat but I find it very hard to believe...how many completions?how many defended?btw that is 6.75/game.....if an average qb throws 25 times a game thats a pretty low percentage going at him

TheEnigma
08-27-2012, 05:30 PM
What he used to face

Denver - Eric Decker

Oakland - Denarius Moore

San Diego - Malcom Floyd

What he will face now

Giants - Hakeem Nicks

Eagles - Desean Jackson

Redskins - Pierre Garcon

Drez
08-27-2012, 05:31 PM
Ah. An adequate place to finish a conversation from another thread.

I'm going Carr.

I think Carr is much closer to top 10 than Webster is at this point in his career.

Granted, we'll have to see how he will do in the new division, but Webster just has not been impressive since 2008 (a year in which he was dominant).
Webster was also very good in '09 until the entire defense fell off a cliff, and was excellent in '10. He played MUCH better than his numbers showed last season.

Bigbluefan77
08-27-2012, 05:33 PM
Yea Carr is going to be exposed this year but thats what happens when you change schemes

titwio
08-27-2012, 05:37 PM
I think Carr is very gifted and was a great acquisition for the Cowboys, but he was a number two corner and was playing alongside Brandon Flowers. It'll be interesting to see how he excels this year going up against better competition and working along side a rookie. I definitely think they have the potential to one of the better duo's in the NFL.

It would be nice for the Giants if Thomas and Amukamra could actually stay healthy and help CWeb out.

TheEnigma
08-27-2012, 05:38 PM
CBs are easily the hardest position to properly rank because statistics are very misleading in their case.

Who was he covering? What type of receiver was it? Speedy? Physical?

What offensive system was the team using?

Who was the QB throwing the ball?

He'll have to face more pass attempts because the Giants and Eagles are both pass oriented teams while the Redskins will try the air game more now with RG3.

Denver and Oakland were run first teams and while San Diego is a pass oriented team, he wasn't lining up against Vincent Jackson.

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:38 PM
What he used to face

Denver - Eric Decker

Oakland - Denarius Moore

San Diego - Malcom Floyd

What he will face now

Giants - Hakeem Nicks

Eagles - Desean Jackson

Redskins - Pierre Garcon

It's a different division for sure, but he faced GB and DET last year and passed with flying colors. And in fact it was Brandon Flowers that proved to be the weaker of the two in those matchups.

pino
08-27-2012, 05:41 PM
Ah. An adequate place to finish a conversation from another thread.

I'm going Carr.

I think Carr is much closer to top 10 than Webster is at this point in his career.

Granted, we'll have to see how he will do in the new division, but Webster just has not been impressive since 2008 (a year in which he was dominant).

According to Advanced NFL Stats - not that they are the authority on all that is football - Webster had the 7th best WPA (Win Probability Added). Carr was #79.

http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?pos=CB

jomo
08-27-2012, 05:43 PM
CBs are easily the hardest position to properly rank because statistics are very misleading in their case.

Who was he covering? What type of receiver was it? Speedy? Physical?

What offensive system was the team using?

Who was the QB throwing the ball?

He'll have to face more pass attempts because the Giants and Eagles are both pass oriented teams while the Redskins will try the air game more now with RG3.

Denver and Oakland were run first teams and while San Diego is a pass oriented team, he wasn't lining up against Vincent Jackson.The hardest thing to rate by the numbers is when you get really good, teams stop throwing your way which takes all the numbers down.

TheEnigma
08-27-2012, 05:44 PM
It's a different division for sure, but he faced GB and DET last year and passed with flying colors. And in fact it was Brandon Flowers that proved to be the weaker of the two in those matchups.

Kind of impressed on that note with the Packers since Jordy Nelson is underrated while Jennings is overrated but be honest: was he lining up against Megatron or someone else?

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:44 PM
Not going to argue with the stat but I find it very hard to believe...how many completions?how many defended?btw that is 6.75/game.....if an average qb throws 25 times a game thats a pretty low percentage going at him

Considering that some of those passes are out of the backfield, against possible other corners, or safeties, it's not that low.

He gave up 61 completions. 6 ints, 17 passes defended

Carr: 73 targets, 39 completions 4 ints 15 passes defended

Again, he was one of the most targeted in the league.

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:47 PM
Kind of impressed on that note with the Packers since Jordy Nelson is underrated while Jennings is overrated but be honest: was he lining up against Megatron or someone else?

Well that's the thing. Unlike the Giants the Chiefs don't really do the whole matchup thing. Carr would be on the right, Flowers on the left. Early on, they lined Megatron up against Carr, but after a few series and good coverage by Carr, they switched him over to Flowers' side and never looked back.

Ntegrase96
08-27-2012, 05:48 PM
The hardest thing to rate by the numbers is when you get really good, teams stop throwing your way which takes all the numbers down.

My sentiments exactly. The best stats for a CB are the stats that aren't there. A quiet game is a good game.

TheEnigma
08-27-2012, 05:50 PM
So what's the deal with Mike Jenkins now? Backup depth at the outside CB position or can he play slot?

Marvelousmik
08-27-2012, 09:23 PM
Considering that some of those passes are out of the backfield, against possible other corners, or safeties, it's not that low.

He gave up 61 completions. 6 ints, 17 passes defended

Carr: 73 targets, 39 completions 4 ints 15 passes defended

Again, he was one of the most targeted in the league.

I dont want to sound like a homer or anything but those stats are rather interesting. It seems as though webster rarely gets targeted. Some games they may throw his way a solid amount of times but in most games its hard to remember more han 3 plays thrown his way. I will pay closer attention this season. as far as carr vs webster goes, i have no idea who is better. I actually dont know much about carr.

off topic i think MURRAY is the most talented running back in the league. (IF HEALTHY). I call him baby peterson

shotgundraw
08-28-2012, 07:53 AM
I dont want to sound like a homer or anything but those stats are rather interesting. It seems as though webster rarely gets targeted. Some games they may throw his way a solid amount of times but in most games its hard to remember more han 3 plays thrown his way. I will pay closer attention this season. as far as carr vs webster goes, i have no idea who is better. I actually dont know much about carr.

off topic i think MURRAY is the most talented running back in the league. (IF HEALTHY). I call him baby peterson

Webster was targeted 108 times last season, that's huge (#8 in the league)(regular season only obviously).

I'd give him the edge over Carr because most of the time (60% to be precise) he's covering the #1 WR, which Carr didn't do in KC (to each his side and cover whoever comes your way).

Ntegrase96
08-28-2012, 11:11 AM
So what's the deal with Mike Jenkins now? Backup depth at the outside CB position or can he play slot?

I would say that he's most likely depth. I see us drafting another corner within the first three rounds next year and letting Jenkins go after the season.

However, at the moment he is still important to the cause. I wouldn't expect to see him covering the slot all that much since Scandrick has proven that he is mainly a slot corner (another reason we didn't go after Finnegan who is best in the same area), but with Rob's defense there has been talk of 4 cbs on the field in obvious passing downs.

Ntegrase96
08-28-2012, 11:18 AM
I dont want to sound like a homer or anything but those stats are rather interesting. It seems as though webster rarely gets targeted. Some games they may throw his way a solid amount of times but in most games its hard to remember more han 3 plays thrown his way. I will pay closer attention this season. as far as carr vs webster goes, i have no idea who is better. I actually dont know much about carr.

off topic i think MURRAY is the most talented running back in the league. (IF HEALTHY). I call him baby peterson

Murray's issue will be staying healthy. But it's interesting that you call him baby peterson. Obviously with both from the same school and both have similar styles of running. Obviously Murray isn't Peterson, but they both run to punish. Didn't know if anyone else noticed the similarities.

I have to respectfully disagree though because McCoy takes the cake in the division. I'm very happy with our guy and I like his attitude far more than McCoy's (Murray is a young leader), but McCoy is pretty damn good. It will also be interesting to see how Wilson does.

giantsfan420
08-28-2012, 11:41 AM
carr plays small. i have absolutely no worries whatsoever about him. JJ even said himself he overpaid for him. He's a solid #2. He wasn't even the 1 at KC and he wont be in Dallas.
And I take no stock in the stats nte is proposing bc KC has been a consistently below avg team. Its not like KC defense was tops, and Carr was taking half the field away. It was more like teams could do what they pleased vs KC. If Carr has a lower number of targets, it could be skewed bc teams are almost always ahead of KC late and dont have to pass with the lead. Also, KC went up against Tebow (x2), Carson Palmer (x2 and Oakland doesnt exactly have well rounder WRs) and Rivers (whose best target is a TE).
I've seen quite a bit of Carr and I can honestly say he doesn't impress me in the least, and that he will often play small...

Ntegrase96
08-28-2012, 12:15 PM
carr plays small. i have absolutely no worries whatsoever about him. JJ even said himself he overpaid for him. He's a solid #2. He wasn't even the 1 at KC and he wont be in Dallas.
And I take no stock in the stats nte is proposing bc KC has been a consistently below avg team. Its not like KC defense was tops, and Carr was taking half the field away. It was more like teams could do what they pleased vs KC. If Carr has a lower number of targets, it could be skewed bc teams are almost always ahead of KC late and dont have to pass with the lead. Also, KC went up against Tebow (x2), Carson Palmer (x2 and Oakland doesnt exactly have well rounder WRs) and Rivers (whose best target is a TE).
I've seen quite a bit of Carr and I can honestly say he doesn't impress me in the least, and that he will often play small...

And webster has been the strongest corner on a team with bad corners (some of the worst in the league) and a strong pass rush. Meaning, if anything, he shouldn't have been tops in the league in targets.

Also, the idea of Carr being a number 2 was squashed last year. Both Flowers and Carr had a specific side, so it was more like CB 1 and CB A.

You do know that the AFCW doesn't only play AFCW teams, right? Watch game footage against two of the best passing teams in the league last year (GB and DET). Carr still hold's his own.

Jerry admitted to overpaying, but most likely that was due to Finnegan's fat contract from Seattle inflating Carr's market value... actually, that wasn't 'most likely'-- that's what happened.

Ntegrase96
08-28-2012, 12:32 PM
I'm interested in your opinion on this GF420, since I asked you before but you must have missed it. Who are your top 10 corners in the league?

TheEnigma
08-28-2012, 12:38 PM
I'm interested in your opinion on this GF420, since I asked you before but you must have missed it. Who are your top 10 corners in the league?

I know you aren't asking me but I'll give my list for craps and giggles. In no particular order...

Darelle Revis
Brent Grimes
Joe Haden
Johnathan Joseph
Nnamndi Asomugha (might need to be removed if he doesn't adjust to Eagles scheme)
Lardarius Webb
Brandon Flowers
Richard Sherman (hugely underrated and unknown)
Brandon Browner
Chris Gamble

Ntegrase96
08-28-2012, 12:59 PM
I know you aren't asking me but I'll give my list for craps and giggles. In no particular order...

Darelle Revis
Brent Grimes
Joe Haden
Johnathan Joseph
Nnamndi Asomugha (might need to be removed if he doesn't adjust to Eagles scheme)
Lardarius Webb
Brandon Flowers
Richard Sherman (hugely underrated and unknown)
Brandon Browner
Chris Gamble

Not a bad list. I'd probably have Joseph over Haden though. And I'm not sure if I would knock Aso down so far yet. He didn't have a great year, but he also didn't have a bad year either... especially since he was being used incorrectly for a good portion of the season. Still it does hurt his legend and clears up that debate of him vs Revis.

edit: I'd also try to squeeze Asante on there somewhere. I don't like his style, but he's still pretty good.