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Kruunch
12-14-2011, 01:55 PM
Anyone else annoyed by Reese not picking Sean Lee in the second round last year?

You know ... since Phillip Dillard is working out so well.

Gianthunter
12-14-2011, 01:57 PM
Nope. One thing I learned in fishing you can't land em all.

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 02:00 PM
Nope. One thing I learned in fishing you can't land em all.

True but Sean we had in our nets and said "that Phillip Dillard fish is just as big ... we'll throw this Sean Lee fish back ...:"

Phooey!

myles2424
12-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 02:21 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout.

IamGiantsfan
12-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout.
We drafted Linval Jospeh in the second round, not Dillard (5th rounder) And he seems to be doing pretty well.

IamGiantsfan
12-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout.
We drafted Linval Jospeh in the second round, not Dillard (5th rounder) And he seems to be doing pretty well.

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 02:36 PM
Anyone else annoyed by Reese not picking Sean Lee in the second round last year?

You know ... since Phillip Dillard is working out so well.

out of all the revisionist history you could have you pick Sean Lee?

and no... I am VERY happy with Joseph

myles2424
12-14-2011, 02:37 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 02:43 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

i disagree...

to expect starters out of the late rounds is different, we missed on sintim definitly, but the rest you could never really put too much faith in

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 02:45 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout.
We drafted Linval Jospeh in the second round, not Dillard (5th rounder) And he seems to be doing pretty well.

We didn't draft Sean Lee in the second round because they rated Dillard on the same tier as Lee, whom they expected to be available in the 4th round, hence why they picked Joseph in the second.

In other words, they outsmarted themselves.

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 02:49 PM
Anyone else annoyed by Reese not picking Sean Lee in the second round last year?

You know ... since Phillip Dillard is working out so well.

out of all the revisionist history you could have you pick Sean Lee?

and no... I am VERY happy with Joseph


Well yeah ... LB was (and is and continues to be ...) our highest priority.

Orlando McClain gets nabbed in the first so we go JPP (and that was a gamble at the time and its paying off big dividends now) .... in the second round however there was a plethora of decent LBers and Sean Lee was on everyone's boards to go to the Giants (ironically except the Giants' boards).

Linval Joseph was not a necessity at the time (we were deep in DTs) and the majority graded Sean Lee higher overall anyways.

Then again you know this, because you went ballistic last year when we took Joseph in the second :P

myles2424
12-14-2011, 02:49 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

i disagree...

to expect starters out of the late rounds is different, we missed on sintim definitly, but the rest you could never really put too much faith in


the fact that dillard & Tracy aren't even on the team anymore while those picks could've been used differently,ill have to disagree...dillard was a bum even in college,& Tracy was a small school DE....that's not just a roll of the dice,those was simply bad choices.....who would've thought otherwise?

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 02:50 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

i disagree...

to expect starters out of the late rounds is different, we missed on sintim definitly, but the rest you could never really put too much faith in




Ummmm I'd expect starting quality out of 4th round picks. Maybe not immediately, but by the same token I expect them to make the TEAM the following year.

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 02:51 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

i disagree...

to expect starters out of the late rounds is different, we missed on sintim definitly, but the rest you could never really put too much faith in


the fact that dillard & Tracy aren't even on the team anymore while those picks could've been used differently,ill have to disagree...dillard was a bum even in college,& Tracy was a small school DE....that's not just a roll of the dice,those was simply bad choices.....who would've thought otherwise?

Not to mention Sintim and Tracey played in 3/4 schemes.

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 02:57 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

i disagree...

to expect starters out of the late rounds is different, we missed on sintim definitly, but the rest you could never really put too much faith in




Ummmm I'd expect starting quality out of 4th round picks. Maybe not immediately, but by the same token I expect them to make the TEAM the following year.

Well I disagree and all you have to do is go look at the history of 4th round picks and their success rate of players that go on to be starters. ESPECIALLY from the 2010 draft.

Beyond that, part of the reason Dillard isn't here (not that I think he was great or ever did) is because the Giants really like the young talent they got this year. JWill may end up being a pretty damn fine player for us and who knows about Herzlich?

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 03:00 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

i disagree...

to expect starters out of the late rounds is different, we missed on sintim definitly, but the rest you could never really put too much faith in


the fact that dillard & Tracy aren't even on the team anymore while those picks could've been used differently,ill have to disagree...dillard was a bum even in college,& Tracy was a small school DE....that's not just a roll of the dice,those was simply bad choices.....who would've thought otherwise?

Not to mention Sintim and Tracey played in 3/4 schemes.

I hated the Sintim pick myself but i would say that if Kiwi could have success at OLB then Sintim could of as well if he was good enough

Tracy was more of a physical freak type situation, but again your talking to me about a late 6th round pick. If you want to say we didn't really try to address our LBers with the draft i'll accept that but we really haven't made moves.

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 03:01 PM
but either way - Sean Lee is nothing to lose sleep over

you want something to lose sleep over? Instead of Aaron Ross we could of had Jon Beason

GMENAGAIN
12-14-2011, 03:05 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee..... I was hoping for a new LB scout. We drafted Linval Jospeh in the second round, not Dillard (5th rounder) And he seems to be doing pretty well.</P>


Agreed . . . it makes no sense to compare Lee and Dillard. The comparison is between Joseph and Lee. </P>

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 03:10 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over

JPP
12-14-2011, 03:10 PM
Wow great insight maybe you should be our scout.....retroactively.

GMENAGAIN
12-14-2011, 03:15 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over
</P>


Ray Lewis is a killer . . . we picked Jones at 6 that year . . . . Lewis went at 26 I think . . . . </P>

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 03:16 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over
</p>


Ray Lewis is a killer . . . we picked Jones at 6 that year . . . . Lewis went at 26 I think . . . . </p>

yea it makes me feel better that 25 other teams were as stupid as we were

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 03:25 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout. normally I'd say that's not the problem....but after the sintim,tracy,& dillard disasters, there's definetly something wrong with our LB evaluating...
I don't think anyone's suprised that anyone of these guys haven't worked out.....

i disagree...

to expect starters out of the late rounds is different, we missed on sintim definitly, but the rest you could never really put too much faith in




Ummmm I'd expect starting quality out of 4th round picks. Maybe not immediately, but by the same token I expect them to make the TEAM the following year.

Well I disagree and all you have to do is go look at the history of 4th round picks and their success rate of players that go on to be starters. ESPECIALLY from the 2010 draft.*

Beyond that, part of the reason Dillard isn't here (not that I think he was great or ever did) is because the Giants really like the young talent they got this year. JWill may end up being a pretty damn fine player for us and who knows about Herzlich?



Wait wait wait ... you think Dillard isn't here because of those 6th round pygmies we picked up this year?!

Seriously dude?

Dillard isn't here because he flat out stunk. So much so that the GM who picked him the year prior and who is loathe to jettison picks in general, realized how poor he was and cut bait (and the fact the he couldn't make a team until everyone literally dropped dead on the Panthers recently is a testament to that).

The fact that they replaced him with 6th round picks is just how bad our scouting department is in the LB position currently.

JWill: He may or may not ... he flashes now and again but gets beat consistantly. Definitely looks like a 6th round talent at this point however.

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 03:27 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

Tony Bruno
12-14-2011, 03:33 PM
Dillard = bum...

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 03:48 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 04:06 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

P.P.S. - Our LBs in 96 were Armstead, Widmer and Miller (all considered competent to excellent LBers). However our RDT at the time was Chad Bratzke and that's why we drafted a DE (Cedric Jones) over a LB (Ray Lewis).

Also Ray Lewis came from the Hurricanes who weren't known for producing great defensive players at the time ... which is probably why he was the FOURTH linebacker chosen in that years draft (the real head scratcher was Detroit taking Reggie Brown over him).

P.P.P.S. - Oh and if you don't think Sean Lee is that good ... check out his stats this year. And he's done it all year with a broken hand in a cast.

GMENAGAIN
12-14-2011, 04:14 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over
No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical. Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee. Those are the head scratchers. That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?


I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context. At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time). We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we? However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph. The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury. LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need. The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating. Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system). P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.</P>


How do you know that we had Dillard rated as highly as Lee? If that's been reported somewhere I would like to see it.</P>


Your also forgetting that part of Lee's evaluation included a significant injury history.</P>


Joseph was not drafted for depth . . . . it is rare for any second rounderto bedrafted for depth. He was drafted to be a starter, which he now is. The FO had the foresight to see that Robbins and Bernard were on the downside of their careers and Cofield would be leaving as a FA because he would want more money than they were willing to pay. </P>

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 04:28 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

your revisionist history is jaded.

First, i bring up those picks because they are players that are dominant LBers in years we drafted busts. Pointing out that to in general to be that upset we don't have Sean Lee is baffling. I question why you are that upset over a mediocre player when we missed a legend like Ray Lewis.

Robbins wanted too much money and was getting up there in age. He is having an AWFUL year this year so it was a good move to not lock him up. Either way, by the time we drafted Joseph he wasn't there.

Rocky Bernard hasn't shown he was worth anything to us until this year, at times. Sorry but I think it was pretty well known that we weren't going to plan on having him for this year. We did end up cutting him and he came back cuz nobody else wanted him.

Barry Cofield was a disappointment before 2010. His breakout year was in 2010 after we had drafted Joseph. We did draft Joseph to be what he is for us this year. Year 2 and hes already paying dividends.

Your mistake is that you think drafting is for fixing problems immediatly. Not for nothing, but Sean Lee didn't exactly have a great year by any means last year. Hes doing okay this year, but i'd still take Joseph's performance over his

Please stop saying EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Not EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Penn State lovers wanted him and people JUST wanted a LBer. ALOT of people were scared of his injury history too. He hasn't impressed in the NFL the way you are suggesting he has. Nobody, besides you, is really killing themselves over this.

Well thats NOT always true about and ILB being able to play MLB and vice versa. If it was then Vilma would of stayed with the Jets instead of being completely lost.

Kiwi absolutely doesn't blow and has been much better than expected in coverage and great vs the run.

I just find it funny that you seem to think Lee would of stepped in and played great last year since he was such an immediate need. Guys barely having that great of a season this year and hes two years in. Joseph has been a beast this year

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 04:28 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over
No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical. Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee. Those are the head scratchers. That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?


I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context. At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time). We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we? However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph. The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury. LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need. The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating. Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system). P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.</P>


How do you know that we had Dillard rated as highly as Lee?* If that's been reported somewhere I would like to see it.</P>


Your also forgetting that part of Lee's evaluation included a significant injury history.</P>


Joseph was not drafted for depth . . . . it is rare for any second rounder*to be*drafted for depth.* He was drafted to be a starter, which he now is.* The FO had the foresight to see that Robbins and Bernard were on the downside of their careers and Cofield would be leaving as a FA because he would want more money than they were willing to pay.* *</P>

Reese said that they had Dillard rated as high as Sean Lee.

We can have our differing opinions on why the LJO pick, but he wasn't rated higher then Sean Lee by anyone *except* the Giants (apparently). Considering the need and grade .... ?????

lawl
12-14-2011, 04:29 PM
LBer is the least important unit on our defense, who cares

lawl
12-14-2011, 04:31 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over
No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical. Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee. Those are the head scratchers. That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?


I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context. At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time). We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we? However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph. The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury. LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need. The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating. Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system). P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.</P>


How do you know that we had Dillard rated as highly as Lee? If that's been reported somewhere I would like to see it.</P>


Your also forgetting that part of Lee's evaluation included a significant injury history.</P>


Joseph was not drafted for depth . . . . it is rare for any second rounderto bedrafted for depth. He was drafted to be a starter, which he now is. The FO had the foresight to see that Robbins and Bernard were on the downside of their careers and Cofield would be leaving as a FA because he would want more money than they were willing to pay. </P>


Reese said that they had Dillard rated as high as Sean Lee. We can have our differing opinions on why the LJO pick, but he wasn't rated higher then Sean Lee by anyone *except* the Giants (apparently). Considering the need and grade .... ?????</P>


This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.</P>


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>

Eli2Nicks612
12-14-2011, 04:32 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

P.P.S. - Our LBs in 96 were Armstead, Widmer and Miller (all considered competent to excellent LBers). However our RDT at the time was Chad Bratzke and that's why we drafted a DE (Cedric Jones) over a LB (Ray Lewis).

Also Ray Lewis came from the Hurricanes who weren't known for producing great defensive players at the time ... which is probably why he was the FOURTH linebacker chosen in that years draft (the real head scratcher was Detroit taking Reggie Brown over him).

P.P.P.S. - Oh and if you don't think Sean Lee is that good ... check out his stats this year. And he's done it all year with a broken hand in a cast.

If you were drafting players you'd make the absolute worst team ever. If a team tried to fix all immediate needs in the draft they would fail. A team drafts not for players to fix immediate needs, but needs a few years down the road. Most players need years of development before they could fix a need such as the Giants linebacking group.

Look at the JPP pick last year: DE wasn't a need. It was as far away from a need as possible. We had Tuck, Osi, and Kiwanuka. A lot of people hated the pick. Some said we should have reached for a linebacker or o-lineman instead. Now look at the pick. Osi and Tuck are pretty much no shows and Kiwanuka is contributing at linebacker. We could have done nothing at DE, struggle this year, draft one early next year, and wait for that player to develop for a year or more. Because JPP was drafted before there was a problem there isn't much of a need at DE.

Same goes for Joseph. Last year DT wasn't a need. However, it was obvious that we weren't going to be able to afford Cofield's big contract that was waiting for him at the end of the season. So we draft Joseph because when Cofield left, instead of looking for a DT we would have one waiting. If we didn't draft Joseph and instead just went with drafting Austin this year, our DT's would be worse off (assuming he would be healthy). It's a big difference having a rookie immediately starting and filling a hole and having an already developed player come in to fill it. And saying Sean Lee is a better LB than Lival Joseph is a DT is just stupid in many ways.

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 04:32 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

your revisionist history is jaded.

First, i bring up those picks because they are players that are dominant LBers in years we drafted busts. Pointing out that to in general to be that upset we don't have Sean Lee is baffling.* I question why you are that upset over a mediocre player when we missed a legend like Ray Lewis.*

Robbins wanted too much money and was getting up there in age.* He is having* an AWFUL year this year so it was a good move to not lock him up. Either way, by the time we drafted Joseph he wasn't there.

Rocky Bernard hasn't shown he was worth anything to us until this year, at times.* Sorry but I think it was pretty well known that we weren't going to plan on having him for this year. We did end up cutting him and he came back cuz nobody else wanted him.

Barry Cofield was a disappointment before 2010.** His breakout year was in 2010 after we had drafted Joseph.* We did draft Joseph to be what he is for us this year. Year 2 and hes already paying dividends.

Your mistake is that you think drafting is for fixing problems immediatly. Not for nothing, but Sean Lee didn't exactly have a great year by any means last year. Hes doing okay this year, but i'd still take Joseph's performance over his

Please stop saying EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Not EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Penn State lovers wanted him and people JUST wanted a LBer. ALOT of people were scared of his injury history too.* He hasn't impressed in the NFL the way you are suggesting he has.* Nobody, besides you, is really killing themselves over this.*

Well thats NOT always true about and ILB being able to play MLB and vice versa. If it was then Vilma would of stayed with the Jets instead of being completely lost.

Kiwi absolutely doesn't blow and has been much better than expected in coverage and great vs the run.*

I just find it funny that you seem to think Lee would of stepped in and played great last year since he was such an immediate need. Guys barely having that great of a season this year and hes two years in.* Joseph has been a beast this year


And he says I have revisionist history.

http://cf1.imgobject.com/backdrops/cd7/4bc90847017a3c57fe002cd7/one-flew-over-the-cuckoo-s-nest-poster.jpg

GameTime
12-14-2011, 04:32 PM
Anyone else annoyed by Reese not picking Sean Lee in the second round last year? You know ... since Phillip Dillard is working out so well.</P>


good old hindsight....works every time....</P>


</P>

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 04:35 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

P.P.S. - Our LBs in 96 were Armstead, Widmer and Miller (all considered competent to excellent LBers). However our RDT at the time was Chad Bratzke and that's why we drafted a DE (Cedric Jones) over a LB (Ray Lewis).

Also Ray Lewis came from the Hurricanes who weren't known for producing great defensive players at the time ... which is probably why he was the FOURTH linebacker chosen in that years draft (the real head scratcher was Detroit taking Reggie Brown over him).

P.P.P.S. - Oh and if you don't think Sean Lee is that good ... check out his stats this year. And he's done it all year with a broken hand in a cast.

great point about Corey Widmer. Why would we try to replace him? Chad Bratzke was also our starting DE, who I would of considered a better player than Widmer and we still drafted a DE... so whats your point?

So suggest that DE was more of an issue than LB in 96 is false.

lol I have looked at his stats and besides interceptions what do u see that is so great? And lets be honest about his very last INT, a bit lucky wouldn't you say?

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 04:35 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over
No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical. Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee. Those are the head scratchers. That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?


I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context. At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time). We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we? However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph. The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury. LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need. The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating. Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system). P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.</P>


How do you know that we had Dillard rated as highly as Lee?* If that's been reported somewhere I would like to see it.</P>


Your also forgetting that part of Lee's evaluation included a significant injury history.</P>


Joseph was not drafted for depth . . . . it is rare for any second rounder*to be*drafted for depth.* He was drafted to be a starter, which he now is.* The FO had the foresight to see that Robbins and Bernard were on the downside of their careers and Cofield would be leaving as a FA because he would want more money than they were willing to pay.* *</P>


Reese said that they had Dillard rated as high as Sean Lee. We can have our differing opinions on why the LJO pick, but he wasn't rated higher then Sean Lee by anyone *except* the Giants (apparently). Considering the need and grade .... ?????</P>


This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.</P>


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>

That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense.

http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2010&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=88&pg=2

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 04:36 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

your revisionist history is jaded.

First, i bring up those picks because they are players that are dominant LBers in years we drafted busts. Pointing out that to in general to be that upset we don't have Sean Lee is baffling. I question why you are that upset over a mediocre player when we missed a legend like Ray Lewis.

Robbins wanted too much money and was getting up there in age. He is having an AWFUL year this year so it was a good move to not lock him up. Either way, by the time we drafted Joseph he wasn't there.

Rocky Bernard hasn't shown he was worth anything to us until this year, at times. Sorry but I think it was pretty well known that we weren't going to plan on having him for this year. We did end up cutting him and he came back cuz nobody else wanted him.

Barry Cofield was a disappointment before 2010. His breakout year was in 2010 after we had drafted Joseph. We did draft Joseph to be what he is for us this year. Year 2 and hes already paying dividends.

Your mistake is that you think drafting is for fixing problems immediatly. Not for nothing, but Sean Lee didn't exactly have a great year by any means last year. Hes doing okay this year, but i'd still take Joseph's performance over his

Please stop saying EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Not EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Penn State lovers wanted him and people JUST wanted a LBer. ALOT of people were scared of his injury history too. He hasn't impressed in the NFL the way you are suggesting he has. Nobody, besides you, is really killing themselves over this.

Well thats NOT always true about and ILB being able to play MLB and vice versa. If it was then Vilma would of stayed with the Jets instead of being completely lost.

Kiwi absolutely doesn't blow and has been much better than expected in coverage and great vs the run.

I just find it funny that you seem to think Lee would of stepped in and played great last year since he was such an immediate need. Guys barely having that great of a season this year and hes two years in. Joseph has been a beast this year


And he says I have revisionist history.

http://cf1.imgobject.com/backdrops/cd7/4bc90847017a3c57fe002cd7/one-flew-over-the-cuckoo-s-nest-poster.jpg


ahhh deflect and neglect a response

figured you'd coward off your point

Sean Lee is average - we're better off having an animal at DT

Kruunch
12-14-2011, 04:41 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

your revisionist history is jaded.

First, i bring up those picks because they are players that are dominant LBers in years we drafted busts. Pointing out that to in general to be that upset we don't have Sean Lee is baffling.* I question why you are that upset over a mediocre player when we missed a legend like Ray Lewis.*

Robbins wanted too much money and was getting up there in age.* He is having* an AWFUL year this year so it was a good move to not lock him up. Either way, by the time we drafted Joseph he wasn't there.

Rocky Bernard hasn't shown he was worth anything to us until this year, at times.* Sorry but I think it was pretty well known that we weren't going to plan on having him for this year. We did end up cutting him and he came back cuz nobody else wanted him.

Barry Cofield was a disappointment before 2010.** His breakout year was in 2010 after we had drafted Joseph.* We did draft Joseph to be what he is for us this year. Year 2 and hes already paying dividends.

Your mistake is that you think drafting is for fixing problems immediatly. Not for nothing, but Sean Lee didn't exactly have a great year by any means last year. Hes doing okay this year, but i'd still take Joseph's performance over his

Please stop saying EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Not EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Penn State lovers wanted him and people JUST wanted a LBer. ALOT of people were scared of his injury history too.* He hasn't impressed in the NFL the way you are suggesting he has.* Nobody, besides you, is really killing themselves over this.*

Well thats NOT always true about and ILB being able to play MLB and vice versa. If it was then Vilma would of stayed with the Jets instead of being completely lost.

Kiwi absolutely doesn't blow and has been much better than expected in coverage and great vs the run.*

I just find it funny that you seem to think Lee would of stepped in and played great last year since he was such an immediate need. Guys barely having that great of a season this year and hes two years in.* Joseph has been a beast this year


And he says I have revisionist history.

http://cf1.imgobject.com/backdrops/cd7/4bc90847017a3c57fe002cd7/one-flew-over-the-cuckoo-s-nest-poster.jpg


ahhh deflect and neglect a response

figured you'd coward off your point

Sean Lee is average - we're better off having an animal at DT


We can just agree to disagree.

I wouldn't want to take time away from your Chad Bratzke fan site.

lawl
12-14-2011, 04:42 PM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&amp;p=9&amp;c=12&amp;yr=2010&amp;nid=83&amp;lnid=124&amp;rc=4&amp;pi d=88&amp;pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all morevaluable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>

GMENAGAIN
12-14-2011, 04:42 PM
LBer is the least important unit on our defense, who cares</P>


Time for it to get more important</P>

MattMeyerBud
12-14-2011, 04:43 PM
also -

Ray Lewis over Cedrick Jones

Nick Barnett or Lance Briggs over William Joseph

Keith Bulluck or Julian Peterson over Ron Dayne

those are things to junk punch yourself over


No no no ... at the time the picks were sensical.

Linval Joseph was a depth pick and they rated Dillard as high as Lee.

Those are the head scratchers.

That and I'm talking about something that's effecting us now .... try to stay in this decade :P

whats your argument? because your all over.

How was Joseph a depth pick?

They also had Cedrick Jones valued higher than Ray Lewis, that is the head scratcher

And stop itw tih Lee, hes not even that good and talk about a 3-4 LBer. Isn't that what your whole argument was about Sintim and Tracy?

Ray Lewis is still probably the best LBers in th eNFL today, i'd say thats pretty in the century. Briggs is still beasting is he not?




I'M all over the place? You're the one bringing up picks of decades past that aren't even remotely in the same context.

At the start of 2010 we had at DT; Barry Cofield, Rocky Bernard, Chris Canty and Fred Robbins (on top of running a 3 DE spread half of the time).

We decided not to re-sign Fred Robbins (big mistake) and picked Linval Joseph in the second round FOR DEPTH. He wasn't a starter last year was he? You could say that the pick was to cover Cofield being an FA this year, but then again we ended drafting Marvin Austin this year didn't we?

However last year the *NEED* was at Linebacker and Sean Lee was the highest rated LB in the second round. However we had Dillard rated as high (what a joke) and Reese is a big defensive line guy (and I don't blame him in that regard ... you build your defense from the inside out) so in comes Linval Joseph.

The fact that EVERYONE had Sean Lee going to us once Orlando McClain was claimed in the first round ahead of us is just insult to injury.

LJO was depth ... Sean Lee was need.

The fact that Sean Lee is a better ILB than LJO is a DT is just infuriating.

Oh and to correct your lack of football acumen ... Sean Lee is an INSIDE LB ... it's a natural migration to SAM or MIKE (and he could even play WIL since he's great in space) unlike the OUTSIDE LBers we've picked in the past (which translate to DEs in a 4/3 system).

P.S. - Kiwanuka absolutely blows as a LB in anything but moving forward. That's an experiement that's now failed us twice.

your revisionist history is jaded.

First, i bring up those picks because they are players that are dominant LBers in years we drafted busts. Pointing out that to in general to be that upset we don't have Sean Lee is baffling. I question why you are that upset over a mediocre player when we missed a legend like Ray Lewis.

Robbins wanted too much money and was getting up there in age. He is having an AWFUL year this year so it was a good move to not lock him up. Either way, by the time we drafted Joseph he wasn't there.

Rocky Bernard hasn't shown he was worth anything to us until this year, at times. Sorry but I think it was pretty well known that we weren't going to plan on having him for this year. We did end up cutting him and he came back cuz nobody else wanted him.

Barry Cofield was a disappointment before 2010. His breakout year was in 2010 after we had drafted Joseph. We did draft Joseph to be what he is for us this year. Year 2 and hes already paying dividends.

Your mistake is that you think drafting is for fixing problems immediatly. Not for nothing, but Sean Lee didn't exactly have a great year by any means last year. Hes doing okay this year, but i'd still take Joseph's performance over his

Please stop saying EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Not EVERYONE had us grabbing Lee. Penn State lovers wanted him and people JUST wanted a LBer. ALOT of people were scared of his injury history too. He hasn't impressed in the NFL the way you are suggesting he has. Nobody, besides you, is really killing themselves over this.

Well thats NOT always true about and ILB being able to play MLB and vice versa. If it was then Vilma would of stayed with the Jets instead of being completely lost.

Kiwi absolutely doesn't blow and has been much better than expected in coverage and great vs the run.

I just find it funny that you seem to think Lee would of stepped in and played great last year since he was such an immediate need. Guys barely having that great of a season this year and hes two years in. Joseph has been a beast this year


And he says I have revisionist history.

http://cf1.imgobject.com/backdrops/cd7/4bc90847017a3c57fe002cd7/one-flew-over-the-cuckoo-s-nest-poster.jpg


ahhh deflect and neglect a response

figured you'd coward off your point

Sean Lee is average - we're better off having an animal at DT


We can just agree to disagree.

I wouldn't want to take time away from your Chad Bratzke fan site.

haha i would of took Bratzke's production as a Giant over Widmer

GMENAGAIN
12-14-2011, 08:51 PM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&amp;p=9&amp;c=12&amp;yr=2010&amp;nid=83&amp;lnid=124&amp;rc=4&amp;pi d=88&amp;pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all morevaluable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>


</P>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </P>

EJ Blue
12-14-2011, 09:26 PM
passed on Spoon(which turned into a good decision with JPP), passed on Lee, passed on Angerer, passed on Spikes. They passed on a boatload of productive LBs, and we still can't cover anyone in the middle of the field.

nycsportzfan
12-14-2011, 09:41 PM
Anyone else annoyed by Reese not picking Sean Lee in the second round last year?

You know ... since Phillip Dillard is working out so well. I actually named Sean Lee and Chad JOnes as players who reminded me of NY GIANTS type draft picks and players before the draft happened and i really thought Lee would be a good player but that said We got Linval Joseph and there is always a guy who u can look back at and see that hes done well and think we should've or could've but didn't lol One thing Jerry Reese has done above avg well is drafting so i'm certainly not gonna get on em about Sean Lee

egyptian420
12-14-2011, 09:43 PM
This is silly, same thing could be said about every team. The draft is like a casino, sometimes you make safe bets, sometime you make risky bets and it can either go your way or not....it's really unpredictable, the only way you can really drop the bomb is if you constantly have terrible drafts, which is not at all the case for us.

You don't think Eagle fans are upset that they actually moved Up in the draft ahead of us to take Graham and we got JPP after their pick?

nycsportzfan
12-14-2011, 09:44 PM
but either way - Sean Lee is nothing to lose sleep over

you want something to lose sleep over? Instead of Aaron Ross we could of had Jon Beason
Well i was thinking instead of Kenny Phillips We could've had Curtis Lofton who i remember hering as a possibility before draft time But at the time I gotta admit as much as i loved Lofton I liked KP more

nycsportzfan
12-14-2011, 09:48 PM
This is silly, same thing could be said about every team. The draft is like a casino, sometimes you make safe bets, sometime you make risky bets and it can either go your way or not....it's really unpredictable, the only way you can really drop the bomb is if you constantly have terrible drafts, which is not at all the case for us.

You don't think Eagle fans are upset that they actually moved Up in the draft ahead of us to take Graham and we got JPP after their pick?
Or how about the cowboys taking Felix Jones and then seeing what Forte and Ray Rice are doing???lol Bottom line is as u said Its tough!

egyptian420
12-14-2011, 09:50 PM
This is silly, same thing could be said about every team. The draft is like a casino, sometimes you make safe bets, sometime you make risky bets and it can either go your way or not....it's really unpredictable, the only way you can really drop the bomb is if you constantly have terrible drafts, which is not at all the case for us.

You don't think Eagle fans are upset that they actually moved Up in the draft ahead of us to take Graham and we got JPP after their pick?
Or how about the cowboys taking Felix Jones and then seeing what Forte and Ray Rice are doing???lol Bottom line is as u said Its tough!

Yea man....you can't really nit pick on these things, every draft has good and bad players, no team in any draft year hits on all 7 picks

tonyt830
12-14-2011, 09:50 PM
Krunch, I agree we need to address our backers, mostly the Mike and/or Sam. I think Lee is going to turn out to be a solid linebacker over his career.</P>


</P>


But you aren't going to win your argument with some of these posters on here. You have to many kool aid drinking homers that think Reese is a GM god and that he, our coaches or scouts can't do no wrong sometimes.</P>


</P>


There were a lot of fans on here that liked Lee and there were some that were concerned about him coming off his ACL injury in college. </P>


</P>


Its a crap shoot sometimes. Maybe Joseph works out, and taking him in the 2nd rd in 2010 will be worth it. But like they say hindsight is always 20/20.</P>


</P>


Maybe this offseason our scouts and GM hit a homerun when it comes to the linebacker situation.</P>

slipknottin
12-15-2011, 12:16 AM
Sean Lee had major injury worries coming out

I still have little faith that his knees hold out more than another season or two.

lawl
12-15-2011, 12:24 AM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2010&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=88&pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all more*valuable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft* and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>


</P>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </P>
Us last year and with spags. Jim johnson's eagles.

Now try and name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have a good pass rush or cover guys.

BJacobs aka The Problem
12-15-2011, 09:47 AM
Am I the only one who things that Sean Lee wouldn't be a good MLB in a 4-3 defense? I mean, don't get me wrong, the kid's a pretty good ILB in the 3-4, but I think in a pure 4-3 he could potentially have problems.

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 09:59 AM
Krunch, I agree we need to address our backers, mostly the Mike and/or Sam.* I think Lee is going to turn out to be a solid linebacker over his career.</P>


*</P>


But you aren't going to win your argument with some of these posters on here.* You have to many kool aid drinking homers that think Reese is a GM god and that he, our coaches or scouts can't do no wrong sometimes.</P>


*</P>


There were a lot of fans on here that liked Lee and there were some that were concerned about him coming off his ACL injury in college.* </P>


*</P>


Its a crap shoot sometimes.* Maybe Joseph works out, and taking him in the 2nd rd in 2010 will be worth it.* But like they say hindsight is always 20/20.</P>


*</P>


Maybe this offseason our scouts and GM hit a homerun when it comes to the linebacker situation.</P>

This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.

Ironically the LB we chose (Dillard) also had injury issues (ACL to boot) AND he had mental issues (apparently not being in the mood to play football was a running theme with Dillard).

Reese is a good GM in that the Giants have the talent to succeed BUT he's not a great GM as some of our ongoing holes tend to show.

That and I'm sick to death of seeing our 6th round rookies getting beat over the middle.

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:01 AM
Am I the only one who things that Sean Lee wouldn't be a good MLB in a 4-3 defense? I mean, don't get me wrong, the kid's a pretty good ILB in the 3-4, but I think in a pure 4-3 he could potentially have problems.

Why would you think that? He's got a great motor, moves upfield well and plays great in space. That and the fact that some form of cover 2 defense today is the most played look in the NFL, he has all the ear marks of being a great MLB.

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 10:03 AM
Krunch, I agree we need to address our backers, mostly the Mike and/or Sam. I think Lee is going to turn out to be a solid linebacker over his career.</p>


</p>


But you aren't going to win your argument with some of these posters on here. You have to many kool aid drinking homers that think Reese is a GM god and that he, our coaches or scouts can't do no wrong sometimes.</p>


</p>


There were a lot of fans on here that liked Lee and there were some that were concerned about him coming off his ACL injury in college. </p>


</p>


Its a crap shoot sometimes. Maybe Joseph works out, and taking him in the 2nd rd in 2010 will be worth it. But like they say hindsight is always 20/20.</p>


</p>


Maybe this offseason our scouts and GM hit a homerun when it comes to the linebacker situation.</p>

well regardless how you or I think they will turn out, so far to date Lee has not been a better pick than Joseph and Joseph is a starter for us.

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 10:05 AM
Krunch, I agree we need to address our backers, mostly the Mike and/or Sam. I think Lee is going to turn out to be a solid linebacker over his career.</p>


</p>


But you aren't going to win your argument with some of these posters on here. You have to many kool aid drinking homers that think Reese is a GM god and that he, our coaches or scouts can't do no wrong sometimes.</p>


</p>


There were a lot of fans on here that liked Lee and there were some that were concerned about him coming off his ACL injury in college. </p>


</p>


Its a crap shoot sometimes. Maybe Joseph works out, and taking him in the 2nd rd in 2010 will be worth it. But like they say hindsight is always 20/20.</p>


</p>


Maybe this offseason our scouts and GM hit a homerun when it comes to the linebacker situation.</p>

This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.

Ironically the LB we chose (Dillard) also had injury issues (ACL to boot) AND he had mental issues (apparently not being in the mood to play football was a running theme with Dillard).

Reese is a good GM in that the Giants have the talent to succeed BUT he's not a great GM as some of our ongoing holes tend to show.

That and I'm sick to death of seeing our 6th round rookies getting beat over the middle.

what other positions are on going holes?

yoeddy
12-15-2011, 10:07 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:08 AM
Krunch, I agree we need to address our backers, mostly the Mike and/or Sam.* I think Lee is going to turn out to be a solid linebacker over his career.</p>


*</p>


But you aren't going to win your argument with some of these posters on here.* You have to many kool aid drinking homers that think Reese is a GM god and that he, our coaches or scouts can't do no wrong sometimes.</p>


*</p>


There were a lot of fans on here that liked Lee and there were some that were concerned about him coming off his ACL injury in college.* </p>


*</p>


Its a crap shoot sometimes.* Maybe Joseph works out, and taking him in the 2nd rd in 2010 will be worth it.* But like they say hindsight is always 20/20.</p>


*</p>


Maybe this offseason our scouts and GM hit a homerun when it comes to the linebacker situation.</p>

well regardless how you or I think they will turn out, so far to date Lee has not been a better pick than Joseph and Joseph is a starter for us.





You are extremely high if you consider Linval Joseph a better starter for us then Sean Lee is for the Cowboys.

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 10:09 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:19 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

He also picked Sintim, Dillard, Tracy, Beatty, Jones, Ross, Kehl, Woodson (both of them), Henderson, Brown, Bomar, Barden, Wright and Dodge.

A bunch of not-so-great players that are either not on the team anymore, not in football at all (in 2 short years) or don't contribute much (if anything) to the team.

Reese has been living on his 2007 draft, which in retrospect was a one hit wonder draft (including the majority of those players not contributing much to the teams they're currently on).

But getting back on topic for a moment which is the LB position ... Reese has whiffed at every attempt with the exception of Goff (whom most on these boards (wrongly) considered a crap MLB last year I might add).

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:21 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 10:22 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

He also picked Sintim, Dillard, Tracy, Beatty, Jones, Ross, Kehl, Woodson (both of them), Henderson, Brown, Bomar, Barden, Wright and Dodge.

A bunch of not-so-great players that are either not on the team anymore, not in football at all (in 2 short years) or don't contribute much (if anything) to the team.

Reese has been living on his 2007 draft, which in retrospect was a one hit wonder draft (including the majority of those players not contributing much to the teams they're currently on).

But getting back on topic for a moment which is the LB position ... Reese has whiffed at every attempt with the exception of Goff (whom most on these boards (wrongly) considered a crap MLB last year I might add).

i would bet that our success rate of quality players via draft since Reese has got here is at the top of the NFL. Maybe not THEE best, but in the discussion

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:23 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

He also picked Sintim, Dillard, Tracy, Beatty, Jones, Ross, Kehl, Woodson (both of them), Henderson, Brown, Bomar, Barden, Wright and Dodge.

A bunch of not-so-great players that are either not on the team anymore, not in football at all (in 2 short years) or don't contribute much (if anything) to the team.

Reese has been living on his 2007 draft, which in retrospect was a one hit wonder draft (including the majority of those players not contributing much to the teams they're currently on).

But getting back on topic for a moment which is the LB position ... Reese has whiffed at every attempt with the exception of Goff (whom most on these boards (wrongly) considered a crap MLB last year I might add).

i would bet that our success rate of quality players via draft since Reese has got here is at the top of the NFL. Maybe not THEE best, but in the discussion


I bet his last 3 drafts put him at the bottom half of the NFL.

How much would you like to lose?

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 10:23 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:24 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin


Not only better, but he's younger, improving and costs less.

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ;)

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 10:30 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

He also picked Sintim, Dillard, Tracy, Beatty, Jones, Ross, Kehl, Woodson (both of them), Henderson, Brown, Bomar, Barden, Wright and Dodge.

A bunch of not-so-great players that are either not on the team anymore, not in football at all (in 2 short years) or don't contribute much (if anything) to the team.

Reese has been living on his 2007 draft, which in retrospect was a one hit wonder draft (including the majority of those players not contributing much to the teams they're currently on).

But getting back on topic for a moment which is the LB position ... Reese has whiffed at every attempt with the exception of Goff (whom most on these boards (wrongly) considered a crap MLB last year I might add).

i would bet that our success rate of quality players via draft since Reese has got here is at the top of the NFL. Maybe not THEE best, but in the discussion


I bet his last 3 drafts put him at the bottom half of the NFL.

How much would you like to lose?

okay lets do that

2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 10:32 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin


Not only better, but he's younger, improving and costs less.

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ;)

younger and costs less - but def not better. And i'd actually say that Boley who is in the beginning of his prime...

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:47 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

He also picked Sintim, Dillard, Tracy, Beatty, Jones, Ross, Kehl, Woodson (both of them), Henderson, Brown, Bomar, Barden, Wright and Dodge.

A bunch of not-so-great players that are either not on the team anymore, not in football at all (in 2 short years) or don't contribute much (if anything) to the team.

Reese has been living on his 2007 draft, which in retrospect was a one hit wonder draft (including the majority of those players not contributing much to the teams they're currently on).

But getting back on topic for a moment which is the LB position ... Reese has whiffed at every attempt with the exception of Goff (whom most on these boards (wrongly) considered a crap MLB last year I might add).

i would bet that our success rate of quality players via draft since Reese has got here is at the top of the NFL. Maybe not THEE best, but in the discussion


I bet his last 3 drafts put him at the bottom half of the NFL.

How much would you like to lose?

okay lets do that

2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.


Forgetting for a second that Beatty is horrible and Manningham is mediocre at best we'll go with that ...

Green Bay Packers

2008: Nelson, Finley, Lee, Flynn, Sitton

2009: Raji, Matthews, Lang, Wynn, Jones

2010: Bulaga, Neal, Burnett, Newhouse, Starks, Wilson

Nuff said.

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 10:49 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin


Not only better, but he's younger, improving and costs less.

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ;)

younger and costs less - but def not better. And i'd actually say that Boley who is in the beginning of his prime...




Wow hypocritical much?! You KILLED Boley last year ... absolutely all year up and down you HATED him.

And when do you expect him to hit his prime ... when he's 67?!

Jeez ... anyone that can waffle that much should be running for President :D

Oh and this is not opinion btw ... this is FACT:

Boley: 68 Tackles, 15 Assists, 1 FF, 3 FR, 1 Sack, 4 STF, 3 PD

Lee: 87 Tackles, 30 Assists, 2 FR, 4 INT, 7 STF, 7 PD

Oh and Lee has been doing it with a broken hand all year.

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:04 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin


Not only better, but he's younger, improving and costs less.

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ;)

younger and costs less - but def not better. And i'd actually say that Boley who is in the beginning of his prime...




Wow hypocritical much?! You KILLED Boley last year ... absolutely all year up and down you HATED him.

And when do you expect him to hit his prime ... when he's 67?!

Jeez ... anyone that can waffle that much should be running for President :D

Oh and this is not opinion btw ... this is FACT:

Boley: 68 Tackles, 15 Assists, 1 FF, 3 FR, 1 Sack, 4 STF, 3 PD

Lee: 87 Tackles, 30 Assists, 2 FR, 4 INT, 7 STF, 7 PD

Oh and Lee has been doing it with a broken hand all year.

negatory sir... if your going to quote me, quote me correctly...

I said he was disappointing in pass coverage seeing as how thats what he was brought in for, I also didn't like how he was used. Infact I've stuck up for him for the past two years when most were killing him.

I don't even know what year you are pulling those stats from on boley...I guess the fact that he missed 3.5 games really doesn't count with you. Besides the fact that the tackles stat may be THE most useless stat that gets recorded in the NFL today. Actually second most useless, the absolute dumbest stat to question is assisted tackle. LoL. It means nothing. Give me a guy that has 40 less tackles but makes them at the line instead of a guy who is catching RBs in his laps 5 yards down field. Not saying thats completely the case of Lee because I haven't watched ALL of his games, but most certainly hasn't been a stud at all to the point where we are stomach hurt at the thought of not having him.

Broken hand? More like dislocated wrist. All season? More like for a month. THOSE are facts. Any other fabrications you want to bring up? So far you just accused me of saying something I didnt and then hyping up Lee's injury

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:10 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

He also picked Sintim, Dillard, Tracy, Beatty, Jones, Ross, Kehl, Woodson (both of them), Henderson, Brown, Bomar, Barden, Wright and Dodge.

A bunch of not-so-great players that are either not on the team anymore, not in football at all (in 2 short years) or don't contribute much (if anything) to the team.

Reese has been living on his 2007 draft, which in retrospect was a one hit wonder draft (including the majority of those players not contributing much to the teams they're currently on).

But getting back on topic for a moment which is the LB position ... Reese has whiffed at every attempt with the exception of Goff (whom most on these boards (wrongly) considered a crap MLB last year I might add).

i would bet that our success rate of quality players via draft since Reese has got here is at the top of the NFL. Maybe not THEE best, but in the discussion


I bet his last 3 drafts put him at the bottom half of the NFL.

How much would you like to lose?

okay lets do that

2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.


Forgetting for a second that Beatty is horrible and Manningham is mediocre at best we'll go with that ...

Green Bay Packers

2008: Nelson, Finley, Lee, Flynn, Sitton

2009: Raji, Matthews, Lang, Wynn, Jones

2010: Bulaga, Neal, Burnett, Newhouse, Starks, Wilson

Nuff said.

first off i didn't say THEE best. I said at the top. I would agree GB has drafted very well but lets tell the truth about some of the picks you suggested:

how are the following picks good picks? Patrick Lee, Matt Flynn, Brad Jones, Michael Neal, and CJ Wilson

I would have to say that Wynn and STarks are questionable as well.

but please do list 4 other teams. Glad you feel that u proved your point by using the best NFL team in the league as an example

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 11:11 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin


Not only better, but he's younger, improving and costs less.

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ;)

younger and costs less - but def not better. And i'd actually say that Boley who is in the beginning of his prime...




Wow hypocritical much?! You KILLED Boley last year ... absolutely all year up and down you HATED him.

And when do you expect him to hit his prime ... when he's 67?!

Jeez ... anyone that can waffle that much should be running for President :D

Oh and this is not opinion btw ... this is FACT:

Boley: 68 Tackles, 15 Assists, 1 FF, 3 FR, 1 Sack, 4 STF, 3 PD

Lee: 87 Tackles, 30 Assists, 2 FR, 4 INT, 7 STF, 7 PD

Oh and Lee has been doing it with a broken hand all year.

negatory sir... if your going to quote me, quote me correctly...

I said he was disappointing in pass coverage seeing as how thats what he was brought in for, I also didn't like how he was used.* Infact I've stuck up for him for the past two years when most were killing him.

I don't even know what year you are pulling those stats from on boley...I guess the fact that he missed 3.5 games really doesn't count with you. Besides the fact that the tackles stat may be THE most useless stat that gets recorded in the NFL today.* Actually second most useless, the absolute dumbest stat to question is assisted tackle. LoL. It means nothing. Give me a guy that has 40 less tackles but makes them at the line instead of a guy who is catching RBs in his laps 5 yards down field. Not saying thats completely the case of Lee because I haven't watched ALL of his games, but most certainly hasn't been a stud at all to the point where we are stomach hurt at the thought of not having him.

Broken hand? More like dislocated wrist. All season? More like for a month. THOSE are facts. Any other fabrications you want to bring up? So far you just accused me of saying something I didnt and then hyping up Lee's injury






Just wow.

Kase-1
12-15-2011, 11:11 AM
Yo Matt and Kruunch, have you guys considered who Boley and Lee are playing around???

1 is surrounded by rookies, a hybrid DE/LB, 1 guy fresh off the couch, and an ever changing LB corp

The other is surrounded by arguably the best pass rusher, 1 guy having his best year in his career (spencer), and a consistently good LB in Bradie James

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:12 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.

haha your being completely subjective about Mario. YOU obviously just dont like him, but his stats tell a different story. Also the contract he'll get as a FA next year will also tell another story.

If your going to suggest that Mario wasnt' a complete steal then your completely full of ****

Kase-1
12-15-2011, 11:13 AM
2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.
Dont forget Linval Joseph in 2010, he looks to be our new DT of the future

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:14 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin


Not only better, but he's younger, improving and costs less.

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ;)

younger and costs less - but def not better. And i'd actually say that Boley who is in the beginning of his prime...




Wow hypocritical much?! You KILLED Boley last year ... absolutely all year up and down you HATED him.

And when do you expect him to hit his prime ... when he's 67?!

Jeez ... anyone that can waffle that much should be running for President :D

Oh and this is not opinion btw ... this is FACT:

Boley: 68 Tackles, 15 Assists, 1 FF, 3 FR, 1 Sack, 4 STF, 3 PD

Lee: 87 Tackles, 30 Assists, 2 FR, 4 INT, 7 STF, 7 PD

Oh and Lee has been doing it with a broken hand all year.

negatory sir... if your going to quote me, quote me correctly...

I said he was disappointing in pass coverage seeing as how thats what he was brought in for, I also didn't like how he was used. Infact I've stuck up for him for the past two years when most were killing him.

I don't even know what year you are pulling those stats from on boley...I guess the fact that he missed 3.5 games really doesn't count with you. Besides the fact that the tackles stat may be THE most useless stat that gets recorded in the NFL today. Actually second most useless, the absolute dumbest stat to question is assisted tackle. LoL. It means nothing. Give me a guy that has 40 less tackles but makes them at the line instead of a guy who is catching RBs in his laps 5 yards down field. Not saying thats completely the case of Lee because I haven't watched ALL of his games, but most certainly hasn't been a stud at all to the point where we are stomach hurt at the thought of not having him.

Broken hand? More like dislocated wrist. All season? More like for a month. THOSE are facts. Any other fabrications you want to bring up? So far you just accused me of saying something I didnt and then hyping up Lee's injury






Just wow.

was the wow because your full of **** in quoting me or because you were completely wrong about Lee's injury?

Or just because you whole general viewpoint based on defensive players tackle stats may be the dumbest argument ever?

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4688019/sean-lee-says-wrist-is-ok

Kruunch
12-15-2011, 11:14 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.

haha your being completely subjective about Mario. YOU obviously just dont like him, but his stats tell a different story.* Also the contract he'll get as a FA next year will also tell another story.

If your going to suggest that Mario wasnt' a complete steal then your completely full of ****


Must be nice living in your universe.

Kase-1
12-15-2011, 11:14 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.


<font color="#FF0000">Oh man I hate Will Beatty</font>


LOL

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:14 AM
2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.
Dont forget Linval Joseph in 2010, he looks to be our new DT of the future


i mentioned him right after Pierre Paul

shhhh don't say that to Kruunch - to him Joseph sucks and we wasted a pick

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:15 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.

haha your being completely subjective about Mario. YOU obviously just dont like him, but his stats tell a different story. Also the contract he'll get as a FA next year will also tell another story.

If your going to suggest that Mario wasnt' a complete steal then your completely full of ****


Must be nice living in your universe.

actually reality isn't that great of a place... recessions, disease, poverty - it sucks

Kase-1
12-15-2011, 11:15 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.

haha your being completely subjective about Mario. YOU obviously just dont like him, but his stats tell a different story. Also the contract he'll get as a FA next year will also tell another story.

If your going to suggest that Mario wasnt' a complete steal then your completely full of ****
He's def not a 'china doll' the dude got eye gouged Captain Insane-o style and wound up with a detached retina, its not like he lost an eyelash and needs to get shelved

Kase-1
12-15-2011, 11:20 AM
2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.
Dont forget Linval Joseph in 2010, he looks to be our new DT of the future


i mentioned him right after Pierre Paul

shhhh don't say that to Kruunch - to him Joseph sucks and we wasted a pick
Im EXTREMELY suprised by Joseph, he's top 3 among DT tackles in the NFC, more than Cullen Jenkins, Mike Patterson, BJ Raji, Suh, Jay Ratliff, Sedric Ellis, Darnell Dockett, Cofield, etc

Kase-1
12-15-2011, 11:21 AM
2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.
Dont forget Linval Joseph in 2010, he looks to be our new DT of the future


i mentioned him right after Pierre Paul

shhhh don't say that to Kruunch - to him Joseph sucks and we wasted a pick
Im EXTREMELY suprised by Joseph, he's top 3 among DT tackles in the NFC, more than Cullen Jenkins, Mike Patterson, BJ Raji, Suh, Jay Ratliff, Sedric Ellis, Darnell Dockett, Cofield, etc
Oh yea Canty is also more productive than all of those mentioned as well

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:24 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.

haha your being completely subjective about Mario. YOU obviously just dont like him, but his stats tell a different story. Also the contract he'll get as a FA next year will also tell another story.

If your going to suggest that Mario wasnt' a complete steal then your completely full of ****
He's def not a 'china doll' the dude got eye gouged Captain Insane-o style and wound up with a detached retina, its not like he lost an eyelash and needs to get shelved


i guess but just ending two years on IR leaves a sour taste in my mouth

Kase-1
12-15-2011, 11:28 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.

haha your being completely subjective about Mario. YOU obviously just dont like him, but his stats tell a different story. Also the contract he'll get as a FA next year will also tell another story.

If your going to suggest that Mario wasnt' a complete steal then your completely full of ****
He's def not a 'china doll' the dude got eye gouged Captain Insane-o style and wound up with a detached retina, its not like he lost an eyelash and needs to get shelved


i guess but just ending two years on IR leaves a sour taste in my mouth
I know what else leaves a sour taste in your mouth......

LMAO

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:34 AM
Beatty is a damn fine tackle and young buck who did a great job in pass protection this year. Hes a china doll and needs to improve at run blocking.

haha your being completely subjective about Mario. YOU obviously just dont like him, but his stats tell a different story. Also the contract he'll get as a FA next year will also tell another story.

If your going to suggest that Mario wasnt' a complete steal then your completely full of ****
He's def not a 'china doll' the dude got eye gouged Captain Insane-o style and wound up with a detached retina, its not like he lost an eyelash and needs to get shelved


i guess but just ending two years on IR leaves a sour taste in my mouth
I know what else leaves a sour taste in your mouth......

LMAO


lol was waiting for Moorehead to slam dunk that one

GMENAGAIN
12-15-2011, 11:43 AM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&amp;p=9&amp;c=12&amp;yr=2010&amp;nid=83&amp;lnid=124&amp;rc=4&amp;pi d=88&amp;pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all morevaluable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>


</P>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </P>


Us last year and with spags. Jim johnson's eagles. Now try and name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have a good pass rush or cover guys.</P>


I don't disagree that DE's/DT's and cover guys may be more valuable in the 4-3 than LB's, but this doesn't mean that you can completely ignorethe LB position as we have done (especially with the number of freakishly talented pass-catching TE's in the league).</P>

lawl
12-15-2011, 11:49 AM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2010&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=88&pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all more*valuable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft* and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>


</P>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </P>


Us last year and with spags. Jim johnson's eagles. Now try and name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have a good pass rush or cover guys.</P>


I don't disagree that DE's/DT's and cover guys may be more valuable in the 4-3 than LB's, but this doesn't mean that you can completely ignore*the LB position as we have done (especially with the number of freakishly talented pass-catching TE's in the league).</P>

We've invested an above average contract(boley), a 2nd rounder and a multitude of middle round picks into the position.

That's about as much assets you can invest into a position that's not as valuable as others and still be able to invest in other positions.

There's only so much you can do.

As of now we have a solid MLB in Goff on IR and two three down linebackers in jwill and boley.

MattMeyerBud
12-15-2011, 11:50 AM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</p>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&amp;p=9&amp;c=12&amp;yr=2010&amp;nid=83&amp;lnid=124&amp;rc=4&amp;pi d=88&amp;pg=2</p>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</p>


DT DE and cover guys are all morevaluable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</p>


</p>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </p>


Us last year and with spags. Jim johnson's eagles. Now try and name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have a good pass rush or cover guys.</p>


I don't disagree that DE's/DT's and cover guys may be more valuable in the 4-3 than LB's, but this doesn't mean that you can completely ignorethe LB position as we have done (especially with the number of freakishly talented pass-catching TE's in the league).</p>

We've invested an above average contract(boley), a 2nd rounder and a multitude of middle round picks into the position.

That's about as much assets you can invest into a position that's not as valuable as others and still be able to invest in other positions.

There's only so much you can do.

As of now we have a solid MLB in Goff on IR and two three down linebackers in jwill and boley.

also going into this year we knew we were going to move Kiwi back to LB - so that was addressing it. We didn't move Kiwi there for him to NOT get playing time

tonyt830
12-16-2011, 09:26 PM
Krunch, I agree we need to address our backers, mostly the Mike and/or Sam. I think Lee is going to turn out to be a solid linebacker over his career.</P>


</P>


But you aren't going to win your argument with some of these posters on here. You have to many kool aid drinking homers that think Reese is a GM god and that he, our coaches or scouts can't do no wrong sometimes.</P>


</P>


There were a lot of fans on here that liked Lee and there were some that were concerned about him coming off his ACL injury in college. </P>


</P>


Its a crap shoot sometimes. Maybe Joseph works out, and taking him in the 2nd rd in 2010 will be worth it. But like they say hindsight is always 20/20.</P>


</P>


Maybe this offseason our scouts and GM hit a homerun when it comes to the linebacker situation.</P>




well regardless how you or I think they will turn out, so far to date Lee has not been a better pick than Joseph and Joseph is a starter for us.



well you are correct Matt when it comes to how you or I think a player will turn out. But Lee isa starter as well, next to James, at inside backer for the Cowboys just like Joseph is starting for our Giants this year. </P>


</P>


They are both 2nd yr players with this year being their first full year as a starter at their respective positions. I'm not saying Lee is having an all-pro type year, but Joseph has not played all-pro either. And yes hopefully he continues to get better and will be one of the top 5DTs in the next couple of years.With the exception of Pierre-Paul and a few Osi sightings when healthy, our D-line has not been all that great this year. I know Tuck has been hurt, Osi is now hurt, Canty has underachieved while being overpaid. </P>


</P>


</P>

ELIistheFRANCHISE
12-16-2011, 09:37 PM
Anyone else annoyed by Reese not picking Sean Lee in the second round last year? You know ... since Phillip Dillard is working out so well.</P>


I like the anvil</P>

tonyt830
12-16-2011, 09:39 PM
Yo Matt and Kruunch, have you guys considered who Boley and Lee are playing around???

1 is surrounded by rookies, a hybrid DE/LB, 1 guy fresh off the couch, and an ever changing LB corp

The other is surrounded by arguably the best pass rusher, 1 guy having his best year in his career (spencer), and a consistently good LB in Bradie James
Yeah agreed and remember that Boley plays in a 4-3 while Lee plays in a 3-4. Lee has very good talent around him at backer. The Giants backers have been banged up and shuffled around all year.

GMENAGAIN
12-16-2011, 09:40 PM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&amp;p=9&amp;c=12&amp;yr=2010&amp;nid=83&amp;lnid=124&amp;rc=4&amp;pi d=88&amp;pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all morevaluable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>


</P>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </P>


Us last year and with spags. Jim johnson's eagles. Now try and name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have a good pass rush or cover guys.</P>


I don't disagree that DE's/DT's and cover guys may be more valuable in the 4-3 than LB's, but this doesn't mean that you can completely ignorethe LB position as we have done (especially with the number of freakishly talented pass-catching TE's in the league).</P>


We've invested an above average contract(boley), a 2nd rounder and a multitude of middle round picks into the position. That's about as much assets you can invest into a position that's not as valuable as others and still be able to invest in other positions. There's only so much you can do. As of now we have a solid MLB in Goff on IR and two three down linebackers in jwill and boley.

also going into this year we knew we were going to move Kiwi back to LB - so that was addressing it. We didn't move Kiwi there for him to NOT get playing time
</P>


I don't think it's enough to say we tried, but oh well, our LB's still suck. Keep trying until you get it right.</P>


Middle round picks are not an investment . . . . they are a shot in the dark. It has been evident from the beginning that the second round pick . . . Sintim . . . is a total bust. </P>


The Kiwi LB expriment failed once and has now fialed again. The guy is a good DE and a below average LB. </P>

lawl
12-17-2011, 12:14 PM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2010&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=88&pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all more*valuable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft* and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>


</P>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </P>


Us last year and with spags. Jim johnson's eagles. Now try and name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have a good pass rush or cover guys.</P>


I don't disagree that DE's/DT's and cover guys may be more valuable in the 4-3 than LB's, but this doesn't mean that you can completely ignore*the LB position as we have done (especially with the number of freakishly talented pass-catching TE's in the league).</P>


We've invested an above average contract(boley), a 2nd rounder and a multitude of middle round picks into the position. That's about as much assets you can invest into a position that's not as valuable as others and still be able to invest in other positions. There's only so much you can do. As of now we have a solid MLB in Goff on IR and two three down linebackers in jwill and boley.

also going into this year we knew we were going to move Kiwi back to LB - so that was addressing it. We didn't move Kiwi there for him to NOT get playing time
</P>


I don't think it's enough to say we tried, but oh well, our LB's still suck.* Keep trying until you get it right.</P>


Middle round picks are not an investment . . . . they are a shot in the dark.* It has been evident from the beginning that the second round pick . . . Sintim . . . is a total bust.* </P>


The Kiwi LB expriment failed once and has now fialed again.* The guy is a good DE and a below average LB.* </P>

What else should we have done?

Spoon instead of jpp?

Lee instead of linval? Who'd be our starting dt?

Investing too much into a position that isn't that valuable is bad business.

GMENAGAIN
12-17-2011, 07:16 PM
This is simply not true at all. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that LJO wasn't rated higher than Sean Lee.


In fact, I would venture to say that many teams had Lee completely off their board because of his injury history.</P>


That makes about as much sense as your prior post about LB being the least important part of our (30th ranked) defense. http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2010&nid=83&lnid=124&rc=4&pid=88&pg=2</P>


A foxsports rating is what every team in the league follows? What kind of response is this?</P>


DT DE and cover guys are all more*valuable to a 4-3 defense than LBers. Think I'm wrong? Then why do 4-3 linebackers constantly slide in the draft* and why do all these other positions make more money than linebacker? Because they simply are not as valuable.</P>


</P>


Name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have good LB's . . . . . </P>


Us last year and with spags. Jim johnson's eagles. Now try and name a solid NFL defense that doesn't have a good pass rush or cover guys.</P>


I don't disagree that DE's/DT's and cover guys may be more valuable in the 4-3 than LB's, but this doesn't mean that you can completely ignore*the LB position as we have done (especially with the number of freakishly talented pass-catching TE's in the league).</P>


We've invested an above average contract(boley), a 2nd rounder and a multitude of middle round picks into the position. That's about as much assets you can invest into a position that's not as valuable as others and still be able to invest in other positions. There's only so much you can do. As of now we have a solid MLB in Goff on IR and two three down linebackers in jwill and boley.

also going into this year we knew we were going to move Kiwi back to LB - so that was addressing it. We didn't move Kiwi there for him to NOT get playing time
</P>


I don't think it's enough to say we tried, but oh well, our LB's still suck.* Keep trying until you get it right.</P>


Middle round picks are not an investment . . . . they are a shot in the dark.* It has been evident from the beginning that the second round pick . . . Sintim . . . is a total bust.* </P>


The Kiwi LB expriment failed once and has now fialed again.* The guy is a good DE and a below average LB.* </P>

What else should we have done?

Spoon instead of jpp?

Lee instead of linval? Who'd be our starting dt?

Investing too much into a position that isn't that valuable is bad business.

How about a LB instead of Beckum? Instead of Barden? Instead of Jernigan? How about signing Bulloch?

I agree that LB is not the most valuable position on the defense. But to say the position is not valuable at all . .. . . that is just wrong.

Do you think that it's a coincidence that our defense is absolutely atrocious, even though we have above-average talent at every position but LB?

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 10:16 AM
being high has nothing to do wtih anything

Sean Lee is just not as good as you are pretending he is


Name an LB we've had in the past two years that's better.

And no ... Boley has not been a better LB then Lee has.

But then again you know all this and are just arguing for arguing sake ... I mean what else is there really to do on these boards?

lol if u really think that Lee is better than Boley then i'll talk to u later about something else

I may be high, but your tweakin


Not only better, but he's younger, improving and costs less.

And I was giving you the benefit of the doubt ;)

younger and costs less - but def not better. And i'd actually say that Boley who is in the beginning of his prime...




Wow hypocritical much?! You KILLED Boley last year ... absolutely all year up and down you HATED him.

And when do you expect him to hit his prime ... when he's 67?!

Jeez ... anyone that can waffle that much should be running for President :D

Oh and this is not opinion btw ... this is FACT:

Boley: 68 Tackles, 15 Assists, 1 FF, 3 FR, 1 Sack, 4 STF, 3 PD

Lee: 87 Tackles, 30 Assists, 2 FR, 4 INT, 7 STF, 7 PD

Oh and Lee has been doing it with a broken hand all year.

negatory sir... if your going to quote me, quote me correctly...

I said he was disappointing in pass coverage seeing as how thats what he was brought in for, I also didn't like how he was used. Infact I've stuck up for him for the past two years when most were killing him.

I don't even know what year you are pulling those stats from on boley...I guess the fact that he missed 3.5 games really doesn't count with you. Besides the fact that the tackles stat may be THE most useless stat that gets recorded in the NFL today. Actually second most useless, the absolute dumbest stat to question is assisted tackle. LoL. It means nothing. Give me a guy that has 40 less tackles but makes them at the line instead of a guy who is catching RBs in his laps 5 yards down field. Not saying thats completely the case of Lee because I haven't watched ALL of his games, but most certainly hasn't been a stud at all to the point where we are stomach hurt at the thought of not having him.

Broken hand? More like dislocated wrist. All season? More like for a month. THOSE are facts. Any other fabrications you want to bring up? So far you just accused me of saying something I didnt and then hyping up Lee's injury






Just wow.

was the wow because your full of **** in quoting me or because you were completely wrong about Lee's injury?

Or just because you whole general viewpoint based on defensive players tackle stats may be the dumbest argument ever?

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4688019/sean-lee-says-wrist-is-ok


bump?

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 10:16 AM
This isn't really a point I'm trying to "win". Everyone has their opinions and most are correct in that whichever way you go its in the past so done is done .... EXCEPT the guy making the mistakes is still picking our players.


He also picked JPP, Nicks, Manningham, Terrell Thomas, and a bunch of other great players.

He also picked Sintim, Dillard, Tracy, Beatty, Jones, Ross, Kehl, Woodson (both of them), Henderson, Brown, Bomar, Barden, Wright and Dodge.

A bunch of not-so-great players that are either not on the team anymore, not in football at all (in 2 short years) or don't contribute much (if anything) to the team.

Reese has been living on his 2007 draft, which in retrospect was a one hit wonder draft (including the majority of those players not contributing much to the teams they're currently on).

But getting back on topic for a moment which is the LB position ... Reese has whiffed at every attempt with the exception of Goff (whom most on these boards (wrongly) considered a crap MLB last year I might add).

i would bet that our success rate of quality players via draft since Reese has got here is at the top of the NFL. Maybe not THEE best, but in the discussion


I bet his last 3 drafts put him at the bottom half of the NFL.

How much would you like to lose?

okay lets do that

2008: Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Jonathan Goff (who i'd also say had a better year last year than Lee has had this year)

2009: Hakeem Nicks, Will Beatty

2010: Pierre Paul, Jospeh , Chad Jones (who knows what he would of been), Petrus (who got his first start and was the best our OLine looked all year)

trying to judge this years draft after week 14 is moronic so i won't evne go there.


Forgetting for a second that Beatty is horrible and Manningham is mediocre at best we'll go with that ...

Green Bay Packers

2008: Nelson, Finley, Lee, Flynn, Sitton

2009: Raji, Matthews, Lang, Wynn, Jones

2010: Bulaga, Neal, Burnett, Newhouse, Starks, Wilson

Nuff said.

first off i didn't say THEE best. I said at the top. I would agree GB has drafted very well but lets tell the truth about some of the picks you suggested:

how are the following picks good picks? Patrick Lee, Matt Flynn, Brad Jones, Michael Neal, and CJ Wilson

I would have to say that Wynn and STarks are questionable as well.

but please do list 4 other teams. Glad you feel that u proved your point by using the best NFL team in the league as an example


bump?

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 10:21 AM
Wow such a tiny tiny little man.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 10:25 AM
a tiny man is somebody who talks out of their *** and then can't eat their crow. Then they stalk others responses in other threads because they are butt-hurt.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 10:31 AM
a tiny man is somebody who talks out of their *** and then can't eat their crow. Then they stalk others responses in other threads because they are butt-hurt.


You just described yourself to a tee.

My point(s) still stand.

If you actually care to have an intelligent debate, lose the attitude and grow up. Until then I'm fine with trading internet snark.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 10:33 AM
a tiny man is somebody who talks out of their *** and then can't eat their crow. Then they stalk others responses in other threads because they are butt-hurt.


You just described yourself to a tee.

My point(s) still stand.

If you actually care to have an intelligent debate, lose the attitude and grow up. Until then I'm fine with trading internet snark.

lol i eat my crow, plenty will vouch on that...

why did u stop responding after I pointed out half of your GB draft was a bunch of bench players???

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 10:37 AM
a tiny man is somebody who talks out of their *** and then can't eat their crow. Then they stalk others responses in other threads because they are butt-hurt.


You just described yourself to a tee.

My point(s) still stand.

If you actually care to have an intelligent debate, lose the attitude and grow up. Until then I'm fine with trading internet snark.

lol i eat my crow, plenty will vouch on that...

why did u stop responding after I pointed out half of your GB draft was a bunch of bench players???


Circular debates are boring. You believe one way ... I believe another ... agree to disagree.

As others (including myself) have said, I'm just crying over spilled milk.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 10:39 AM
a tiny man is somebody who talks out of their *** and then can't eat their crow. Then they stalk others responses in other threads because they are butt-hurt.


You just described yourself to a tee.

My point(s) still stand.

If you actually care to have an intelligent debate, lose the attitude and grow up. Until then I'm fine with trading internet snark.

lol i eat my crow, plenty will vouch on that...

why did u stop responding after I pointed out half of your GB draft was a bunch of bench players???


Circular debates are boring. You believe one way ... I believe another ... agree to disagree.

As others (including myself) have said, I'm just crying over spilled milk.

okay but this conversation has actually evolved off of Sean Lee/Linval Joseph, its not circular.

You started making comparisons to GBs draft and while I think they have done good, what makes their drafts so much better than ours?

Half of those guys you mentioned don't even play

and also a few of them you have mentioned on the OLine are currently taking heat

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 11:04 AM
a tiny man is somebody who talks out of their *** and then can't eat their crow. Then they stalk others responses in other threads because they are butt-hurt.


You just described yourself to a tee.

My point(s) still stand.

If you actually care to have an intelligent debate, lose the attitude and grow up. Until then I'm fine with trading internet snark.

lol i eat my crow, plenty will vouch on that...

why did u stop responding after I pointed out half of your GB draft was a bunch of bench players???


Circular debates are boring. You believe one way ... I believe another ... agree to disagree.

As others (including myself) have said, I'm just crying over spilled milk.

okay but this conversation has actually evolved off of Sean Lee/Linval Joseph, its not circular.

You started making comparisons to GBs draft and while I think they have done good, what makes their drafts so much better than ours?

Half of those guys you mentioned don't even play

and also a few of them you have mentioned on the OLine are currently taking heat


Ah well if you want to continue the draft comparisons my point was that Reese's draft outside of his amazing 2007 Draft, isn't as good as people have made out to be.

The reason I put the players up that I've mentioned on GBs drafting is that while they may not all be starters they do manage to keep their talent and use it. Ours has tended to leave the team fairly quickly (including many from that vaunted 2007 Draft I might add) and most not by free agency.

Giants draft OK ... but we've been subsequently worse in the draft year after year, with last year being one of our poorer drafts (with the exception of JPP of course ... but he was our 3rd choice if you follow the conventional thinking).

JPP is an absolute stud in the making (I will say Reese's #1 draft picks have been much better then GMs of seasons past).

Linval Joseph is servicable but has not done a single thing this year to merit anything more then that (to me). He's certainly not a standout.

Chad Jones unfortunately we'll never know about (I think he would have been a star personally but that's easy to say) .... but as of right now that's just one less person who we talk about in this draft class.

Phillip Dillard was a flat bust (no longer on the team a year later) and only got work recently with the Panthers after they've practically IR'd their entire Dline.

Mitch Petrus shows promise and so far, outside of JPP I think he's been the best part of this draft. Still rough and too early to tell if he'll be stallwart for years to come though.

Adrian Tracey is another flat bust (as much as a 6th rounder can be). Not on the team anymore.

Matt Dodge .... nuff said.

Not a horrible draft but nothing I'd brag about either. JPP is the only real gem with the potential of having 2 other future journeyman players.

Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days.

I Bleed Blue 56
12-20-2011, 11:08 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 11:12 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 11:14 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</P>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman? Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</P>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</P>

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 11:21 AM
a tiny man is somebody who talks out of their *** and then can't eat their crow. Then they stalk others responses in other threads because they are butt-hurt.


You just described yourself to a tee.

My point(s) still stand.

If you actually care to have an intelligent debate, lose the attitude and grow up. Until then I'm fine with trading internet snark.

lol i eat my crow, plenty will vouch on that...

why did u stop responding after I pointed out half of your GB draft was a bunch of bench players???


Circular debates are boring. You believe one way ... I believe another ... agree to disagree.

As others (including myself) have said, I'm just crying over spilled milk.

okay but this conversation has actually evolved off of Sean Lee/Linval Joseph, its not circular.

You started making comparisons to GBs draft and while I think they have done good, what makes their drafts so much better than ours?

Half of those guys you mentioned don't even play

and also a few of them you have mentioned on the OLine are currently taking heat


Ah well if you want to continue the draft comparisons my point was that Reese's draft outside of his amazing 2007 Draft, isn't as good as people have made out to be.

The reason I put the players up that I've mentioned on GBs drafting is that while they may not all be starters they do manage to keep their talent and use it. Ours has tended to leave the team fairly quickly (including many from that vaunted 2007 Draft I might add) and most not by free agency.

Giants draft OK ... but we've been subsequently worse in the draft year after year, with last year being one of our poorer drafts (with the exception of JPP of course ... but he was our 3rd choice if you follow the conventional thinking).

JPP is an absolute stud in the making (I will say Reese's #1 draft picks have been much better then GMs of seasons past).

Linval Joseph is servicable but has not done a single thing this year to merit anything more then that (to me). He's certainly not a standout.

Chad Jones unfortunately we'll never know about (I think he would have been a star personally but that's easy to say) .... but as of right now that's just one less person who we talk about in this draft class.

Phillip Dillard was a flat bust (no longer on the team a year later) and only got work recently with the Panthers after they've practically IR'd their entire Dline.

Mitch Petrus shows promise and so far, outside of JPP I think he's been the best part of this draft. Still rough and too early to tell if he'll be stallwart for years to come though.

Adrian Tracey is another flat bust (as much as a 6th rounder can be). Not on the team anymore.

Matt Dodge .... nuff said.

Not a horrible draft but nothing I'd brag about either. JPP is the only real gem with the potential of having 2 other future journeyman players.

Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days.

see your all over again...

bottom line is that we've gotten JUST as many quality players drafting as the Packers have. FOr you to glorify them and condemn us really doesn't make any sense

"hey do manage to keep their talent and use it." - I dont even understand what your point is there? We probably use more of our draft picks than they have since 08 draft. And what do u mean keep it? Anybody drafted in 2008 is still in their rookie contracts.

JPP - what do u mean he was our third choice? This is where your logic flaws. You take the Packers draft for what it is and then try to have all these extras about the Giants to take away from what we did.

Joseph hasn't completely stood out, but in his first year playing (2nd in the league) he has really shown flashes. But to compare him to Michael Neal (GBs 2010 2nd round pick) its not even comparison. And they both play DLine

Well either way with Chad Jones - its not a pick u can kill the Giantsfor making because of how it played down. So while we both think tha the probably would of been good I think its just moot. CAn't be a plus or a minus for Reese

Petrus looked really good again this past week. High motor guy who looks like he just earned a starting spot on our line.

Either way you said this was one of our worst drafts and we got 3-4 starters out of it and it hasn't even been a full two years. Who else has that already? I mean how many other teams got quality of players with like Joseph, Petrus, and JPP.

Honestly you focus on Giants misses and then other teams hits. Then you downplay Giants hits and down play other teams misses. Your just not being consistent in your evaluation.

Honestly we DEF had a better draft than GB in 2010. I think you would be hard pressed to find 5 other teams that had a better draft in 2010 than us

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 11:24 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</P>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman?* Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</P>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</P>

Well yeah but he wasn't rated nearly as high as Sean Lee (or Chad Jones).

It's not like we fell asleep on that pick.

What really annoys me about last year's draft is that they (the Giants FO) actually rated Dillard close enough to Sean Lee "not to make much of a difference between them" (a direct quote by Reese from last year).

And while I understand the concern over Lee's injury history, Dillard had one as well on top of having attittude issues (he practically didn't play his junior year because he got into it with his coaches) AND he wasn't as good as Lee all the way around (not to mention the conventional wisdom that he looked much better then he was due to playing behind Suh).

I'm baffled by the thought process in taking him when it was a huge hole (and continues to be) in our defense.

That same thought process seems to carry over to this year's draft as well, with us taking a pair of 6th round picks to shore up our LBing corps. Talk about your WTF moments.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 11:24 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 11:28 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</P>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman? Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</P>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</P>


Well yeah but he wasn't rated nearly as high as Sean Lee (or Chad Jones). It's not like we fell asleep on that pick. What really annoys me about last year's draft is that they (the Giants FO) actually rated Dillard close enough to Sean Lee "not to make much of a difference between them" (a direct quote by Reese from last year). And while I understand the concern over Lee's injury history, Dillard had one as well on top of having attittude issues (he practically didn't play his junior year because he got into it with his coaches) AND he wasn't as good as Lee all the way around (not to mention the conventional wisdom that he looked much better then he was due to playing behind Suh). I'm baffled by the thought process in taking him when it was a huge hole (and continues to be) in our defense.</P>


Drafting is not an exact science . . . . it's hard to fault a FOfor one missed pick. We weren't the only team topass on Lee . . . . and we got a very good player at that spot.</P>


That being said, I believe that this FO is not very good at evaluating LB's. They are very good at evaluating DL . . . . </P>

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 11:31 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter.* By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future


Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph.

I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth.

Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 11:33 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</P>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman?* Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</P>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</P>


Well yeah but he wasn't rated nearly as high as Sean Lee (or Chad Jones). It's not like we fell asleep on that pick. What really annoys me about last year's draft is that they (the Giants FO) actually rated Dillard close enough to Sean Lee "not to make much of a difference between them" (a direct quote by Reese from last year). And while I understand the concern over Lee's injury history, Dillard had one as well on top of having attittude issues (he practically didn't play his junior year because he got into it with his coaches) AND he wasn't as good as Lee all the way around (not to mention the conventional wisdom that he looked much better then he was due to playing behind Suh). I'm baffled by the thought process in taking him when it was a huge hole (and continues to be) in our defense.</P>


Drafting is not an exact science . . . . it's hard to fault a FO*for one missed pick.* We weren't the only team to*pass on Lee . . . . and we got a very good player at that spot.</P>


*That being said, I believe that this FO is not very good at evaluating LB's.* They are very good at evaluating DL . . . . </P>

I would absolutely 100% agree with this.

The only thing I would add to this, is that outside of our DLine, our picks are generally speaking somewhat not as developed.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 11:49 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future


Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph.

I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth.

Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 11:52 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</p>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman? Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</p>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</p>


Well yeah but he wasn't rated nearly as high as Sean Lee (or Chad Jones). It's not like we fell asleep on that pick. What really annoys me about last year's draft is that they (the Giants FO) actually rated Dillard close enough to Sean Lee "not to make much of a difference between them" (a direct quote by Reese from last year). And while I understand the concern over Lee's injury history, Dillard had one as well on top of having attittude issues (he practically didn't play his junior year because he got into it with his coaches) AND he wasn't as good as Lee all the way around (not to mention the conventional wisdom that he looked much better then he was due to playing behind Suh). I'm baffled by the thought process in taking him when it was a huge hole (and continues to be) in our defense.</p>


Drafting is not an exact science . . . . it's hard to fault a FOfor one missed pick. We weren't the only team topass on Lee . . . . and we got a very good player at that spot.</p>


That being said, I believe that this FO is not very good at evaluating LB's. They are very good at evaluating DL . . . . </p>

I would absolutely 100% agree with this.

The only thing I would add to this, is that outside of our DLine, our picks are generally speaking somewhat not as developed.

i can't agree with that too much either. Phillips, T2, Mario, Goff, Nicks, Beatty, Petrus, Ballard are all guys who have developed pretty well

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 11:53 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days. "

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future
Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph. I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth. Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where
</P>


Dude . . . Kiwi is not a good LB. The only time he looks good as a LB is when he lines up on the line of scrimmage and either rushes the passer or plays the run. He is terrible in coverage.</P>


It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </P>

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 11:55 AM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</P>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman? Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</P>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</P>


Well yeah but he wasn't rated nearly as high as Sean Lee (or Chad Jones). It's not like we fell asleep on that pick. What really annoys me about last year's draft is that they (the Giants FO) actually rated Dillard close enough to Sean Lee "not to make much of a difference between them" (a direct quote by Reese from last year). And while I understand the concern over Lee's injury history, Dillard had one as well on top of having attittude issues (he practically didn't play his junior year because he got into it with his coaches) AND he wasn't as good as Lee all the way around (not to mention the conventional wisdom that he looked much better then he was due to playing behind Suh). I'm baffled by the thought process in taking him when it was a huge hole (and continues to be) in our defense.</P>


Drafting is not an exact science . . . . it's hard to fault a FOfor one missed pick. We weren't the only team topass on Lee . . . . and we got a very good player at that spot.</P>


That being said, I believe that this FO is not very good at evaluating LB's. They are very good at evaluating DL . . . . </P>


I would absolutely 100% agree with this. The only thing I would add to this, is that outside of our DLine, our picks are generally speaking somewhat not as developed.

i can't agree with that too much either. Phillips, T2, Mario, Goff, Nicks, Beatty, Petrus, Ballard are all guys who have developed pretty well
</P>


I don't think that the FO is bad at evaluating the positions that you mentioned. I think that they are excellent at evalating DL prospects,poor at evaluating LB prospects (hopefully the young guys that they drafted this year will improve their success rate with LB's), and good at evaluating the reaminder of the positions . . . . overall I like our FO's ability to evaluate talent.</P>

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:00 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days. "

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future
Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph. I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth. Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where
</p>


Dude . . . Kiwi is not a good LB. The only time he looks good as a LB is when he lines up on the line of scrimmage and either rushes the passer or plays the run. He is terrible in coverage.</p>


It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </p>

well i disagree with that. I think hes done good as our Will this year. Not to many 4-3 LBers are known for their coverage and hes even done okay with that. Hes played the run extremely well and cna get after the QB in a blitz.

Do i think hes been great? At times vs the run yes, but overall no.

Kiwi also is dealing wtih the fact that there has been no MLB which is probably the most important LB spot in a 4-3.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 12:01 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter.* By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future


Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph.

I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth.

Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought.* Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where


Kiwi is NOT a quality LB in anything but blitzing and obvious running situations. I'm not sure what you're seeing to say that ... he continually gets beat in coverage and can't match up speed wise with most quality TEs in this league.

Goff was unproven and a liability in the passing game, which was compounded by the fact that we tried to run a Tampa 2 defense with him as MLB. He's the reason we switched to the conventional C2 look.

Boley is decent I agree, but not consistant. If he was our worst LB we'd be ok .... him being our best LB is what the problem is.

And I don't need HoF or pro-bowl talent at every position but Boley is the ONLY quality starting LB we have currently. Our other LBers wouldn't even start on most other teams.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:05 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future


Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph.

I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth.

Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where


Kiwi is NOT a quality LB in anything but blitzing and obvious running situations. I'm not sure what you're seeing to say that ... he continually gets beat in coverage and can't match up speed wise with most quality TEs in this league.

Goff was unproven and a liability in the passing game, which was compounded by the fact that we tried to run a Tampa 2 defense with him as MLB. He's the reason we switched to the conventional C2 look.

Boley is decent I agree, but not consistant. If he was our worst LB we'd be ok .... him being our best LB is what the problem is.

And I don't need HoF or pro-bowl talent at every position but Boley is the ONLY quality starting LB we have currently. Our other LBers wouldn't even start on most other teams.

please show me what Wills ina 4-3 ARE good at that? Its not a position that is praised for its coverages but he has also done apretty good job. If you have osme sort of knocks on him from the past two games in coverage let me know because I missed alot of that but still have it DVR'd

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 12:06 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</p>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman?* Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</p>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</p>


Well yeah but he wasn't rated nearly as high as Sean Lee (or Chad Jones). It's not like we fell asleep on that pick. What really annoys me about last year's draft is that they (the Giants FO) actually rated Dillard close enough to Sean Lee "not to make much of a difference between them" (a direct quote by Reese from last year). And while I understand the concern over Lee's injury history, Dillard had one as well on top of having attittude issues (he practically didn't play his junior year because he got into it with his coaches) AND he wasn't as good as Lee all the way around (not to mention the conventional wisdom that he looked much better then he was due to playing behind Suh). I'm baffled by the thought process in taking him when it was a huge hole (and continues to be) in our defense.</p>


Drafting is not an exact science . . . . it's hard to fault a FO*for one missed pick.* We weren't the only team to*pass on Lee . . . . and we got a very good player at that spot.</p>


*That being said, I believe that this FO is not very good at evaluating LB's.* They are very good at evaluating DL . . . . </p>

I would absolutely 100% agree with this.

The only thing I would add to this, is that outside of our DLine, our picks are generally speaking somewhat not as developed.

i can't agree with that too much either. Phillips, T2, Mario, Goff, Nicks, Beatty, Petrus, Ballard are all guys who have developed pretty well


Mario is a marginal 3rd receiver. He runs a lousy route, has average speed and has hands issues. Where did you get the idea this guy was anything special?

Goff is unproven at best and a liability in coverage.

Beatty is a soft Tackle who can't play Guard (!) and is lousy at run blocking. He's bordering on bust in my mind (unless he improves dramatically next year).

Petrus just cracked the starting lineup due to injury. Hardly developed (although he does look promising).

Ballard all but disappeared after teams actually started covering him. He's been a nice surprise (especially after losing Boss) but hardly anything more then a future journeyman TE at this point at best.

I think you're overrating a number of our guys based on what you'd like to see (or what you think they might do) versus what they've actually accomplished.

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 12:18 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days. "

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future
Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph. I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth. Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where
</P>


Dude . . . Kiwi is not a good LB. The only time he looks good as a LB is when he lines up on the line of scrimmage and either rushes the passer or plays the run. He is terrible in coverage.</P>


It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </P>




well i disagree with that. I think hes done good as our Will this year. Not to many 4-3 LBers are known for their coverage and hes even done okay with that. Hes played the run extremely well and cna get after the QB in a blitz.

Do i think hes been great? At times vs the run yes, but overall no.

Kiwi also is dealing wtih the fact that there has been no MLB which is probably the most important LB spot in a 4-3.
</P>


Is Kiwi a better DE or a better LB? I think that the answer is clear:he is a better DE.</P>


If that's the case, our team isn't as strong as it could be if he was playing DE.</P>


I want a true LB in here that is a physical intimidator and is frothing at the mouth to knock the snot out of someone. Pittsburgh seems to grow guys like that on trees. Is it too much for us to ask for just one? Just one??? Please????????</P>

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:19 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......</p>


If you want to get annoyed about a LB that year, how about NaVorro Bowman? Taken in the third round (several picks after we took Chad Jones).</p>


I would much rather have him on my team than Lee . . . . . .</p>


Well yeah but he wasn't rated nearly as high as Sean Lee (or Chad Jones). It's not like we fell asleep on that pick. What really annoys me about last year's draft is that they (the Giants FO) actually rated Dillard close enough to Sean Lee "not to make much of a difference between them" (a direct quote by Reese from last year). And while I understand the concern over Lee's injury history, Dillard had one as well on top of having attittude issues (he practically didn't play his junior year because he got into it with his coaches) AND he wasn't as good as Lee all the way around (not to mention the conventional wisdom that he looked much better then he was due to playing behind Suh). I'm baffled by the thought process in taking him when it was a huge hole (and continues to be) in our defense.</p>


Drafting is not an exact science . . . . it's hard to fault a FOfor one missed pick. We weren't the only team topass on Lee . . . . and we got a very good player at that spot.</p>


That being said, I believe that this FO is not very good at evaluating LB's. They are very good at evaluating DL . . . . </p>

I would absolutely 100% agree with this.

The only thing I would add to this, is that outside of our DLine, our picks are generally speaking somewhat not as developed.

i can't agree with that too much either. Phillips, T2, Mario, Goff, Nicks, Beatty, Petrus, Ballard are all guys who have developed pretty well


Mario is a marginal 3rd receiver. He runs a lousy route, has average speed and has hands issues. Where did you get the idea this guy was anything special?

Goff is unproven at best and a liability in coverage.

Beatty is a soft Tackle who can't play Guard (!) and is lousy at run blocking. He's bordering on bust in my mind (unless he improves dramatically next year).

Petrus just cracked the starting lineup due to injury. Hardly developed (although he does look promising).

Ballard all but disappeared after teams actually started covering him. He's been a nice surprise (especially after losing Boss) but hardly anything more then a future journeyman TE at this point at best.

I think you're overrating a number of our guys based on what you'd like to see (or what you think they might do) versus what they've actually accomplished.

the numbers don't agree with you when it comes to Mario and neither will the contract hes going to get next year.

Goff got better every year hes played and somebody who I personally thought was due for a big year this year

Beatty isn't the best run blocker but did a GREAT job pass blocking this season in his first year as a starter. EVen still with some of the props your giving the Packers for drafting well, you can't knock on Beatty's production. Something like this is where i say you are inconsistent.

Ballard has been a god send for us this year. Dude had a solid year for us as and was signed as a rookie FA who we practice squaded last year. It just goes against your point of playing and developing young players. Im not saying hes Jimmy Graham but hes had a great year for us. Minus 2 drops this season everybody would be campaigning for him to be in the pro bowl. Hes already had the best year we've had out of a TE receiving since Shockey in 2006! And he still has two games so he may even surpass that specific year of shockeys numbers

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:21 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days. "

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future
Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph. I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth. Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where
</p>


Dude . . . Kiwi is not a good LB. The only time he looks good as a LB is when he lines up on the line of scrimmage and either rushes the passer or plays the run. He is terrible in coverage.</p>


It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </p>




well i disagree with that. I think hes done good as our Will this year. Not to many 4-3 LBers are known for their coverage and hes even done okay with that. Hes played the run extremely well and cna get after the QB in a blitz.

Do i think hes been great? At times vs the run yes, but overall no.

Kiwi also is dealing wtih the fact that there has been no MLB which is probably the most important LB spot in a 4-3.
</p>


Is Kiwi a better DE or a better LB? I think that the answer is clear:he is a better DE.</p>


If that's the case, our team isn't as strong as it could be if he was playing DE.</p>


I want a true LB in here that is a physical intimidator and is frothing at the mouth to knock the snot out of someone. Pittsburgh seems to grow guys like that on trees. Is it too much for us to ask for just one? Just one??? Please????????</p>

whether he is better at DE or LB is moot to the argument.

Was Deion Sanders better at Football or baseball? Definitly football, but he was still a professional baseball player.

Yea but it is stronger, because if you put Kiwi at DE, then that means ur taking JPP or Tuck out of the game.

Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 12:28 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter.* By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future


Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph.

I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth.

Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought.* Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where


Kiwi is NOT a quality LB in anything but blitzing and obvious running situations. I'm not sure what you're seeing to say that ... he continually gets beat in coverage and can't match up speed wise with most quality TEs in this league.

Goff was unproven and a liability in the passing game, which was compounded by the fact that we tried to run a Tampa 2 defense with him as MLB. He's the reason we switched to the conventional C2 look.

Boley is decent I agree, but not consistant. If he was our worst LB we'd be ok .... him being our best LB is what the problem is.

And I don't need HoF or pro-bowl talent at every position but Boley is the ONLY quality starting LB we have currently. Our other LBers wouldn't even start on most other teams.

please show me what Wills ina 4-3 ARE good at that? Its not a position that is praised for its coverages but he has also done* apretty good job.* If you have osme sort of knocks on him from the past two games in coverage let me know because I missed alot of that but still have it DVR'd


All WILLs should be good in coverage ... it's one of the defining attributes of the position. Classically speaking, MLB is strong against run (your run stuffer) ... plays center field in a Tampa 2; WILL is strong in coverage and plays backside contain; SAM is strong at the point of attack (run stuffer and front side contain).

And in todays pass happy league, the notion of SAM and WILL is more designation than actual function. LBers in general today have to be good in coverage whatever their actual position (OLBs being slightly different obviously).

As for standout WILLs, Jerome Harrison comes to mind (although he is more a "beat you up when you catch it type"). Navarro Bowman is a good example of the newer breed of LBer who can cover and tackle.

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 12:34 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days. "

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future
Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph. I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth. Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where
</P>


Dude . . . Kiwi is not a good LB. The only time he looks good as a LB is when he lines up on the line of scrimmage and either rushes the passer or plays the run. He is terrible in coverage.</P>


It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </P>




well i disagree with that. I think hes done good as our Will this year. Not to many 4-3 LBers are known for their coverage and hes even done okay with that. Hes played the run extremely well and cna get after the QB in a blitz.

Do i think hes been great? At times vs the run yes, but overall no.

Kiwi also is dealing wtih the fact that there has been no MLB which is probably the most important LB spot in a 4-3.
</P>


Is Kiwi a better DE or a better LB? I think that the answer is clear:he is a better DE.</P>


If that's the case, our team isn't as strong as it could be if he was playing DE.</P>


I want a true LB in here that is a physical intimidator and is frothing at the mouth to knock the snot out of someone. Pittsburgh seems to grow guys like that on trees. Is it too much for us to ask for just one? Just one??? Please????????</P>




whether he is better at DE or LB is moot to the argument.

Was Deion Sanders better at Football or baseball? Definitly football, but he was still a professional baseball player.

Yea but it is stronger, because if you put Kiwi at DE, then that means ur taking JPP or Tuck out of the game.

Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.
</P>


I disagree. You want your best players playing at their best positions.</P>


We've had to put Kiwi in a position where he is not as good to make up for the deficiencies at the LBposition. As a result, he is no longer in the DE rotation, which, in my opinion is affecting our pass rush -- with no Kiwi or Osi, and a constantly hurt Tuck, we can no longer send waves of fresh-legged pass rushers at other teams. Guys are playing longer, aren't as fresh and aren't getting penetration. This has weakened our entire D.</P>


I am not saying that we shouldn't have moved Kiwi this year -- I'm not sure that we had any other choice considering our availabletalent at the LB position. My point is that our team defense is being hurt by the fact that our LB corps is weak. Our defense would be much better if we had a stud Will LB and Kiwi was playing DE. I know thatisn't possible now, but our FO has to figure out a way to make this happen going forward . . . . . </P>

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:41 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future


Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph.

I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth.

Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where


Kiwi is NOT a quality LB in anything but blitzing and obvious running situations. I'm not sure what you're seeing to say that ... he continually gets beat in coverage and can't match up speed wise with most quality TEs in this league.

Goff was unproven and a liability in the passing game, which was compounded by the fact that we tried to run a Tampa 2 defense with him as MLB. He's the reason we switched to the conventional C2 look.

Boley is decent I agree, but not consistant. If he was our worst LB we'd be ok .... him being our best LB is what the problem is.

And I don't need HoF or pro-bowl talent at every position but Boley is the ONLY quality starting LB we have currently. Our other LBers wouldn't even start on most other teams.

please show me what Wills ina 4-3 ARE good at that? Its not a position that is praised for its coverages but he has also done apretty good job. If you have osme sort of knocks on him from the past two games in coverage let me know because I missed alot of that but still have it DVR'd


All WILLs should be good in coverage ... it's one of the defining attributes of the position. Classically speaking, MLB is strong against run (your run stuffer) ... plays center field in a Tampa 2; WILL is strong in coverage and plays backside contain; SAM is strong at the point of attack (run stuffer and front side contain).

And in todays pass happy league, the notion of SAM and WILL is more designation than actual function. LBers in general today have to be good in coverage whatever their actual position (OLBs being slightly different obviously).

As for standout WILLs, Jerome Harrison comes to mind (although he is more a "beat you up when you catch it type"). Navarro Bowman is a good example of the newer breed of LBer who can cover and tackle.

Harrison isn't a Will, hes a ROLB in a 3-4. COMPLETELY different (i assume u mean Pitt's LBer)

You look around at the top 4-3 defenses in the league - how many of them have good Will's?!

Ahmad Brooks is pretty bad in coverage and he plays for the most dominant 4-3 defense in the NFL

Kase-1
12-20-2011, 12:42 PM
Mario is a marginal 3rd receiver. He runs a lousy route, has average speed and has hands issues. Where did you get the idea this guy was anything special?

Goff is unproven at best and a liability in coverage.

Beatty is a soft Tackle who can't play Guard (!) and is lousy at run blocking. He's bordering on bust in my mind (unless he improves dramatically next year).

Petrus just cracked the starting lineup due to injury. Hardly developed (although he does look promising).

Ballard all but disappeared after teams actually started covering him. He's been a nice surprise (especially after losing Boss) but hardly anything more then a future journeyman TE at this point at best.

I think you're overrating a number of our guys based on what you'd like to see (or what you think they might do) versus what they've actually accomplished.

Mario has been a steal for where we got him. His draft stock TANKED and we took advantage, for what we paid for him we got a good deal

Goff was def NOT unproven, he was having his best season last year and was among the top 10 run stoppers in the NFL. Compared to what we got this season at MIKE Goff's coverage was outstanding

Beatty got a detached retina this season so cut the guy some slack. He was labeled by every 'draft expert' under the sun as a prototype LT, everyone knew he wasnt gonna be an OG, thats like asking a cat to be a chicken. His run blocking isnt the best, but other than Boothe and Petrus our run blocking has been abysmal all season, lucky for Beatty his nasty pass blocking made up for it. None the less, I still wanna see better run blocking from him, I expect alot from Willy Beats

People like to look down on Ballard, but he's having a better season than Jason Witten...

galaxy10
12-20-2011, 12:42 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days. "

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future
Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph. I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth. Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where
</p>


Dude . . . Kiwi is not a good LB. The only time he looks good as a LB is when he lines up on the line of scrimmage and either rushes the passer or plays the run. He is terrible in coverage.</p>


It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </p>




well i disagree with that. I think hes done good as our Will this year. Not to many 4-3 LBers are known for their coverage and hes even done okay with that. Hes played the run extremely well and cna get after the QB in a blitz.

Do i think hes been great? At times vs the run yes, but overall no.

Kiwi also is dealing wtih the fact that there has been no MLB which is probably the most important LB spot in a 4-3.
</p>


Is Kiwi a better DE or a better LB? I think that the answer is clear:he is a better DE.</p>


If that's the case, our team isn't as strong as it could be if he was playing DE.</p>


I want a true LB in here that is a physical intimidator and is frothing at the mouth to knock the snot out of someone. Pittsburgh seems to grow guys like that on trees. Is it too much for us to ask for just one? Just one??? Please????????</p>




whether he is better at DE or LB is moot to the argument.

Was Deion Sanders better at Football or baseball? Definitly football, but he was still a professional baseball player.

Yea but it is stronger, because if you put Kiwi at DE, then that means ur taking JPP or Tuck out of the game.

Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.
</p>


I disagree. You want your best players playing at their best positions.</p>


We've had to put Kiwi in a position where he is not as good to make up for the deficiencies at the LBposition. As a result, he is no longer in the DE rotation, which, in my opinion is affecting our pass rush -- with no Kiwi or Osi, and a constantly hurt Tuck, we can no longer send waves of fresh-legged pass rushers at other teams. Guys are playing longer, aren't as fresh and aren't getting penetration. This has weakened our entire D.</p>


I am not saying that we shouldn't have moved Kiwi this year -- I'm not sure that we had any other choice considering our availabletalent at the LB position. My point is that our team defense is being hurt by the fact that our LB corps is weak. Our defense would be much better if we had a stud Will LB and Kiwi was playing DE. I know thatisn't possible now, but our FO has to figure out a way to make this happen going forward . . . . . </p>

Somebody better tell the FO because they don't seem to think that LB are a need for us. I have been ranting about our need for LBs for two years now. I remember when our LBs were our strength. This situation regarding our LBS is just deplorable.

gmen0820
12-20-2011, 12:44 PM
It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </P>So playing the pass is the only thing you look for in a LB?

Kase-1
12-20-2011, 12:45 PM
Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.
Damnit Matt, stop throwing out the 'prototypical' term!!!!!

If anything Kiwi was a 'prototype' all around DE, he was a beast vs the run and had no problem disrupting the backfield and racking up sacks.

Simply put, protoype WILL's tend to be coverage LBs, not converted DE's. If anything Kiwi is SAM and Boley is the WILL

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:45 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better. Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand. Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of 2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks fairly quickly these days. "

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter. By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future
Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph. I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth. Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought. Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where
</p>


Dude . . . Kiwi is not a good LB. The only time he looks good as a LB is when he lines up on the line of scrimmage and either rushes the passer or plays the run. He is terrible in coverage.</p>


It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . . </p>




well i disagree with that. I think hes done good as our Will this year. Not to many 4-3 LBers are known for their coverage and hes even done okay with that. Hes played the run extremely well and cna get after the QB in a blitz.

Do i think hes been great? At times vs the run yes, but overall no.

Kiwi also is dealing wtih the fact that there has been no MLB which is probably the most important LB spot in a 4-3.
</p>


Is Kiwi a better DE or a better LB? I think that the answer is clear:he is a better DE.</p>


If that's the case, our team isn't as strong as it could be if he was playing DE.</p>


I want a true LB in here that is a physical intimidator and is frothing at the mouth to knock the snot out of someone. Pittsburgh seems to grow guys like that on trees. Is it too much for us to ask for just one? Just one??? Please????????</p>




whether he is better at DE or LB is moot to the argument.

Was Deion Sanders better at Football or baseball? Definitly football, but he was still a professional baseball player.

Yea but it is stronger, because if you put Kiwi at DE, then that means ur taking JPP or Tuck out of the game.

Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.
</p>


I disagree. You want your best players playing at their best positions.</p>


We've had to put Kiwi in a position where he is not as good to make up for the deficiencies at the LBposition. As a result, he is no longer in the DE rotation, which, in my opinion is affecting our pass rush -- with no Kiwi or Osi, and a constantly hurt Tuck, we can no longer send waves of fresh-legged pass rushers at other teams. Guys are playing longer, aren't as fresh and aren't getting penetration. This has weakened our entire D.</p>


I am not saying that we shouldn't have moved Kiwi this year -- I'm not sure that we had any other choice considering our availabletalent at the LB position. My point is that our team defense is being hurt by the fact that our LB corps is weak. Our defense would be much better if we had a stud Will LB and Kiwi was playing DE. I know thatisn't possible now, but our FO has to figure out a way to make this happen going forward . . . . . </p>

not if it means taking talent off the field

Either way, Kiwi is probably our second best OLB behind Boley overall

Our LBers really aren't the ones killing us this year. Our DLine not being dominant and our secondary gets picked apart. The only time LBs are killing us is in the run game and I attribute that to having no MLB - thats not on Kiwi at all...

its very overhyped about our how bad our LBers are. Granted they aren't playing great football but are the least of our worries

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 12:46 PM
Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.*


I couldn't disagree more with this.

Kiwi is most definitely not a prototypical WILL. He's not even a mediocre WILL. He is a BAD WILL. He is (and looks) like a guy playing out of position.

And this is evidenced by everything that's caught over the top or middle against him. Pick virtually any game this year.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.
Damnit Matt, stop throwing out the 'prototypical' term!!!!!

If anything Kiwi was a 'prototype' all around DE, he was a beast vs the run and had no problem disrupting the backfield and racking up sacks.

Simply put, protoype WILL's tend to be coverage LBs, not converted DE's. If anything Kiwi is SAM and Boley is the WILL
]

please name me other will's that are good at coverage. That seems to be the only knock on Kiwi. Everybody else agrees that hes pretty solid against the run and we know hes legit at rushign the passer.

My bad, i always do that -i confuse the Sam and will - but u know what i meant..

gmen0820
12-20-2011, 12:48 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

lawl
12-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 12:52 PM
Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.


I couldn't disagree more with this.

Kiwi is most definitely not a prototypical WILL. He's not even a mediocre WILL. He is a BAD WILL. He is (and looks) like a guy playing out of position.

And this is evidenced by everything that's caught over the top or middle against him. Pick virtually any game this year.

i mean to say Sam - Kiwi is a Sam, my bad for my terminology **** off. I could see where its confusing

gmen0820
12-20-2011, 12:53 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tcAnd when we were on a roll, who was having breakout seasons? Webster, Tuck, Robbins.</P>


</P>


I think the most important position on defense is a dominating DT, hands down. If you consistently get pressure up front and penetration, and keep lineman off your LBs, you will have success.</P>

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 12:57 PM
Sean lee was also hurt mind you so the cowboys gambled hes good but they give him alot more credit than he deserves hes been beat and has missed many tackles for huge gains. So lets not beat ourselves on this joseph is a good player and will get better.

Ummm Sean Lee has been *very* good this year for the Cowboys (easily their best LB outside of Ware) and he's been playing with a bum hand.

Is he the second coming of LT? No ... certainly not. But when you compare him to what we got in the terms of LBers .... wellllllllll ......

okay but then we would of had another hole at DT rather than at LB

Your just over-valuing Lee and under valuing Joseph

"Nothing that screams Reese is amazing. His other drafts (outside of
2007) tend to be similar or worse and we seem to cut bait with our picks
fairly quickly these days.
"

and just cuz i forgot to respond to that - i assume your referencing that to Cofield but truth of the matter is that Cofield only showed up in his contract year to where it looked like he could be a real full time starter.* By then it was too late because we were already moving on and building for the future


Well yes and no ... I understand what you're saying here but we had (and continue to have) a couple of holes at LB ... we didn't at the time at DT and we had moves to make at that level had we not taken Linval Joseph.

I understand the emphasis on the Dline but our LB corps has been absolutely decimated between lack of starting talent, injury and lack of depth.

Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

I just disagree that our LB woes were as bad as we thought.* Kiwi is doing fine at OLB, Boley is pretty good player, and we were planning on having Goff.

We may not of drafted great depth, or been completely sound at LB but show me a team that has depth every where


Kiwi is NOT a quality LB in anything but blitzing and obvious running situations. I'm not sure what you're seeing to say that ... he continually gets beat in coverage and can't match up speed wise with most quality TEs in this league.

Goff was unproven and a liability in the passing game, which was compounded by the fact that we tried to run a Tampa 2 defense with him as MLB. He's the reason we switched to the conventional C2 look.

Boley is decent I agree, but not consistant. If he was our worst LB we'd be ok .... him being our best LB is what the problem is.

And I don't need HoF or pro-bowl talent at every position but Boley is the ONLY quality starting LB we have currently. Our other LBers wouldn't even start on most other teams.

please show me what Wills ina 4-3 ARE good at that? Its not a position that is praised for its coverages but he has also done* apretty good job.* If you have osme sort of knocks on him from the past two games in coverage let me know because I missed alot of that but still have it DVR'd


All WILLs should be good in coverage ... it's one of the defining attributes of the position. Classically speaking, MLB is strong against run (your run stuffer) ... plays center field in a Tampa 2; WILL is strong in coverage and plays backside contain; SAM is strong at the point of attack (run stuffer and front side contain).

And in todays pass happy league, the notion of SAM and WILL is more designation than actual function. LBers in general today have to be good in coverage whatever their actual position (OLBs being slightly different obviously).

As for standout WILLs, Jerome Harrison comes to mind (although he is more a "beat you up when you catch it type"). Navarro Bowman is a good example of the newer breed of LBer who can cover and tackle.

Harrison isn't a Will, hes a ROLB in a 3-4. COMPLETELY different (i assume u mean Pitt's LBer)

You look around at the top 4-3 defenses in the league - how many of them have good Will's?!

Ahmad Brooks is pretty bad in coverage and he plays for the most dominant 4-3 defense in the NFL


I was talking about when he's dropped into coverage.

A little extrapolation please.

I think at this point you it's safe to say you think one way, I think another.

Agree to disagree.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 12:59 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

We started with a bunch of Tampa 2 looks last year.

We quickly ran away from that when even the Martians realized our MLB couldn't cover in space.

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 01:03 PM
It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . .


</P>


So playing the pass is the only thing you look for in a LB?</P>


Is that what I said?</P>


Do you think that Kiwi is a good LB?</P>

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:03 PM
im just saying you really aren't taking into account everything. Typically the Sam in a 4-3 is not great at coverage, its true all over the league.

your also not taking into account the competition. We've played 6 of the top 8 TEs in the league this year (statistically). Celek twice, going to play Witten twice, and going to face Keller this week whose #7.

It isn't like we've gone up against Shockey and MArcedes Lewis all year. The woes of this defense doesn't start at the LB position at all - ESPECIALLY when it comes to passes

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:03 PM
Kiwi is pretty close to a prototypical Will.*


I couldn't disagree more with this.

Kiwi is most definitely not a prototypical WILL. He's not even a mediocre WILL. He is a BAD WILL. He is (and looks) like a guy playing out of position.

And this is evidenced by everything that's caught over the top or middle against him. Pick virtually any game this year.

i mean to say Sam - Kiwi is a Sam, my bad for my terminology **** off. I could see where its confusing


ROFL ... yeah well that does make a bit of difference.

Kiwi would have been a prototypical SAM (except for his size) about 10 years ago.

Today he is still a liability in the secondary due to his lack of cover skills (all LBers who can't cover are with the exception of pass rushing OLBs ... and even they are dropped back on occasion).

Kiwi is great against the run ... I'll agree there in a heartbeat. But he's being wasted at the position he is currently playing. Worse ... it's hurting the team (from a standpoint of not having better).

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:04 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

We started with a bunch of Tampa 2 looks last year.

We quickly ran away from that when even the Martians realized our MLB couldn't cover in space.

as we should have... Goff is a good player but hes not a TAmpa 2 MLB

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:07 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc

Drafting trends are cyclical as are positions based on trending offenses/defenses.

And to say LB is the least important position is a far cry from saying an unimportant position.

Our 31st ranked defense happily proves this.

GMENAGAIN
12-20-2011, 01:07 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</P>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</P>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***? Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</P>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </P>


</P>

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:09 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

We started with a bunch of Tampa 2 looks last year.

We quickly ran away from that when even the Martians realized our MLB couldn't cover in space.

as we should have... Goff is a good player but hes not a TAmpa 2 MLB


Agreed ... but whether playing T2 (not to be confused with TT heh) or not, your modern day MLBs of the present still need to be able to cover.

The days of the primal run stuffer are over (for now).

Kase-1
12-20-2011, 01:11 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tcWe could REALLY use another beastly DE. Tuck doesnt seem to be his old self, maybe he's just been fighting injury all season, who knows. As we ALL know, more quality DB's would have been amazing to have this season.

They may be considered the least important part of a 4-3, but teams have been constantly been exploiting out weakness, with the exception of a few games TE's and passes out of the backfield have been killing us

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:14 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc

Drafting trends are cyclical as are positions based on trending offenses/defenses.

And to say LB is the least important position is a far cry from saying an unimportant position.

Our 31st ranked defense happily proves this.

thats a stretch to say...

I can turn around and say that our injuries in the secondary and DLine has really hampered their play which lead to our 31st ranked defense.

Could that not be just as accurate?

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:17 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tcWe could REALLY use another beastly DE.* Tuck doesnt seem to be his old self, maybe he's just been fighting injury all season, who knows.* As we ALL know, more quality DB's would have been amazing to have this season.

They may be considered the least important part of a 4-3, but teams have been constantly been exploiting out weakness, with the exception of a few games TE's and passes out of the backfield have been killing us


I'd be very surprised if DE wasn't our first pick this year.

Kase-1
12-20-2011, 01:18 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

We started with a bunch of Tampa 2 looks last year.

We quickly ran away from that when even the Martians realized our MLB couldn't cover in space.

as we should have... Goff is a good player but hes not a TAmpa 2 MLB
I think this year would have been the year of Goff. Weather in a good or bad way we would have finally seen what we have in him, personally I thought he was gonna come out and continue to be our on the field DC (I bet everyone forgot about THAT) as well as the key piece for us to shut down the run game, and im SURE his coverage would have improved as well

Look at our D when compared to last year, only changes are losing our #2 cb and starting MIKE (T2 and Goff) to injury, as well as Barry Cofield D.D.S. to the skins. But when you look at he numbers, Linval took Barrys role over this season and is 10 tackles and 2 sacks short of Barrys numbers in 16 games last season

Our D last season was top 10, even after the end of season collapse

Kase-1
12-20-2011, 01:19 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tcWe could REALLY use another beastly DE. Tuck doesnt seem to be his old self, maybe he's just been fighting injury all season, who knows. As we ALL know, more quality DB's would have been amazing to have this season.

They may be considered the least important part of a 4-3, but teams have been constantly been exploiting out weakness, with the exception of a few games TE's and passes out of the backfield have been killing us


I'd be very surprised if DE wasn't our first pick this year.There's no way we could have seen the ongoing Tuck saga in the offseason, everyone thought he was gonna be the Tuck of old.... It sucks cause I wanted us to go OL, CB, or S in the 1st 2 rounds, but now it looks like DE is def gonna be up in that mix

lawl
12-20-2011, 01:23 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</P>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</P>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***?* Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</P>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </P>


*</P>

We currently have one de who is playing at a high level and one corner who is playing well. If TT and prince didn't get hurt in the offseason Ross would most likely have been our #4 corner. Instead, he's started every game. Another consequence of these injuries is that rolle has had to cover the slot in multiple games which he never would have had to do. In turn they are probably telling kp to just keep everything in front of him and not take risks.

They need to be giving kiwi more snaps at de because tuck's injury is making him borderline useless. We probably were hoping for some pass rushing from austin this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him now.

We need to retool this defense, starting to wish we got a 2nd rder for osi when we could have.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:26 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc

Drafting trends are cyclical as are positions based on trending offenses/defenses.

And to say LB is the least important position is a far cry from saying an unimportant position.

Our 31st ranked defense happily proves this.

thats a stretch to say...

I can turn around and say that our injuries in the secondary and DLine has really hampered their play which lead to our 31st ranked defense.

Could that not be just as accurate?


If you want to be general about it sure.

But we weren't amazing last year either (despite our defensive ranking).

We had a cake schedule (and still managed to not make the playoffs) and against teams with winning records we gave up 30+ points on average.

Our middle was horribly exposed time and again by quality (and some not so quality) opponents.

Do you call that a good defense?

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:30 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</p>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</p>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***? Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</p>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </p>


</p>

our corners have gotten abused in man and zone all year long... Ross and Prince have been toast.

Prince isn't ready and T2 would make a huge difference for us at CB. If we lose T2 we need to go get another vet corner next year.

Our DL does have talent, when its at full strength but Tuck not being 100% and Osi's disappearing act this season have relaly hurt us.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:32 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

We started with a bunch of Tampa 2 looks last year.

We quickly ran away from that when even the Martians realized our MLB couldn't cover in space.

as we should have... Goff is a good player but hes not a TAmpa 2 MLB


Agreed ... but whether playing T2 (not to be confused with TT heh) or not, your modern day MLBs of the present still need to be able to cover.

The days of the primal run stuffer are over (for now).

I just disagree. Look around the league, how many guys are really dominant in the run. Wasn't it you who mentioned that we should of got Tulloch to a 1 year deal this year? I totally agree, but hes not pass coverage guy

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:33 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tcWe could REALLY use another beastly DE. Tuck doesnt seem to be his old self, maybe he's just been fighting injury all season, who knows. As we ALL know, more quality DB's would have been amazing to have this season.

They may be considered the least important part of a 4-3, but teams have been constantly been exploiting out weakness, with the exception of a few games TE's and passes out of the backfield have been killing us


I'd be very surprised if DE wasn't our first pick this year.There's no way we could have seen the ongoing Tuck saga in the offseason, everyone thought he was gonna be the Tuck of old.... It sucks cause I wanted us to go OL, CB, or S in the 1st 2 rounds, but now it looks like DE is def gonna be up in that mix


i think you guys are crazy.

Tuck will be healthy next year and we are going to move on from Osi. Who knows Kiwi may be back at DE - i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:35 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</P>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</P>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***?* Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</P>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </P>


*</P>

We currently have one de who is playing at a high level and one corner who is playing well. If TT and prince didn't get hurt in the offseason Ross would most likely have been our #4 corner. Instead, he's started every game. Another consequence of these injuries is that rolle has had to cover the slot in multiple games which he never would have had to do. In turn they are probably telling kp to just keep everything in front of him and not take risks.

They need to be giving kiwi more snaps at de because tuck's injury is making him borderline useless. We probably were hoping for some pass rushing from austin this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him now.

We need to retool this defense, starting to wish we got a 2nd rder for osi when we could have.

I totally agree with this. Good summation.

The good news (I think) is that JWill shows promise which would be nice out of a 6th rounder. Goff comes back next year (although off of an ACL I'm not sure you can really expect much) and we should have some cap room as the larger contracts start to shrink (Osi, Tuck, etc ...).

I don't think there is a need to panic at DE ... having Kiwi, Tuck and JPP as a standard rotation (assuming Osi is gone next year) will work just fine *IF* we can get some quality at LBer.

We get TT back next year (again an ACL so who knows for performance next year), Amukamara has a full year, OTAs and pre-season under his belt.

I don't think our defense needs a total overhaul and I think our defense this year would have been quality except that our DC is mediocre at best (one of the marks of a good DC being able to accomodate injuries/talent levels).

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:35 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc

Drafting trends are cyclical as are positions based on trending offenses/defenses.

And to say LB is the least important position is a far cry from saying an unimportant position.

Our 31st ranked defense happily proves this.

thats a stretch to say...

I can turn around and say that our injuries in the secondary and DLine has really hampered their play which lead to our 31st ranked defense.

Could that not be just as accurate?


If you want to be general about it sure.

But we weren't amazing last year either (despite our defensive ranking).

We had a cake schedule (and still managed to not make the playoffs) and against teams with winning records we gave up 30+ points on average.

Our middle was horribly exposed time and again by quality (and some not so quality) opponents.

Do you call that a good defense?

i think we were better last year but that doesn't make us good

I say Osi's 10 strip sacks REALLY masked alot of issues. I think Rolle had a much better year and was able to play in his true position. I think father time caught up with Grant. T2 and Goff DEFINTILY made us a better defense. Having Tuck and Osi healthy all year DEFINITLY made us a better defense

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:37 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</p>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</p>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***? Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</p>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </p>


</p>

We currently have one de who is playing at a high level and one corner who is playing well. If TT and prince didn't get hurt in the offseason Ross would most likely have been our #4 corner. Instead, he's started every game. Another consequence of these injuries is that rolle has had to cover the slot in multiple games which he never would have had to do. In turn they are probably telling kp to just keep everything in front of him and not take risks.

They need to be giving kiwi more snaps at de because tuck's injury is making him borderline useless. We probably were hoping for some pass rushing from austin this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him now.

We need to retool this defense, starting to wish we got a 2nd rder for osi when we could have.

I totally agree with this. Good summation.

The good news (I think) is that JWill shows promise which would be nice out of a 6th rounder. Goff comes back next year (although off of an ACL I'm not sure you can really expect much) and we should have some cap room as the larger contracts start to shrink (Osi, Tuck, etc ...).

I don't think there is a need to panic at DE ... having Kiwi, Tuck and JPP as a standard rotation (assuming Osi is gone next year) will work just fine *IF* we can get some quality at LBer.

We get TT back next year (again an ACL so who knows for performance next year), Amukamara has a full year, OTAs and pre-season under his belt.

I don't think our defense needs a total overhaul and I think our defense this year would have been quality except that our DC is mediocre at best (one of the marks of a good DC being able to accomodate injuries/talent levels).

from some people I know - don't plan on seeing T2 back next year. Dont know how reliable this specific piece of info but this source has never let me down before

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:39 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

We started with a bunch of Tampa 2 looks last year.

We quickly ran away from that when even the Martians realized our MLB couldn't cover in space.

as we should have... Goff is a good player but hes not a TAmpa 2 MLB


Agreed ... but whether playing T2 (not to be confused with TT heh) or not, your modern day MLBs of the present still need to be able to cover.

The days of the primal run stuffer are over (for now).

I just disagree. Look around the league, how many guys are really dominant in the run. Wasn't it you who mentioned that we should of got Tulloch to a 1 year deal this year? I totally agree, but hes not pass coverage guy


Errr no ... I don't think I've ever mentioned Tulloch (Bullock more likely if we're talking about 1 year deals).

I wanted to throw a lot of money at Chad Greenway but alas ... we were a broke NFL franchise this year :(

Kase-1
12-20-2011, 01:40 PM
i think you guys are crazy.

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

lawl
12-20-2011, 01:40 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc

Drafting trends are cyclical as are positions based on trending offenses/defenses.

And to say LB is the least important position is a far cry from saying an unimportant position.

Our 31st ranked defense happily proves this.

First you strongly disagree that LBers are not the least important unit on the field(i challenge you to name a group that is less important).

No position is unimportant. Noone ever said that.

We had a top 10 defense last year with 2 linebackers on the field on most downs. In 08 we had kehl pierce Clark. Are any of those guys even in the league still??

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:44 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</p>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</p>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***?* Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</p>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </p>


*</p>

We currently have one de who is playing at a high level and one corner who is playing well. If TT and prince didn't get hurt in the offseason Ross would most likely have been our #4 corner. Instead, he's started every game. Another consequence of these injuries is that rolle has had to cover the slot in multiple games which he never would have had to do. In turn they are probably telling kp to just keep everything in front of him and not take risks.

They need to be giving kiwi more snaps at de because tuck's injury is making him borderline useless. We probably were hoping for some pass rushing from austin this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him now.

We need to retool this defense, starting to wish we got a 2nd rder for osi when we could have.

I totally agree with this. Good summation.

The good news (I think) is that JWill shows promise which would be nice out of a 6th rounder. Goff comes back next year (although off of an ACL I'm not sure you can really expect much) and we should have some cap room as the larger contracts start to shrink (Osi, Tuck, etc ...).

I don't think there is a need to panic at DE ... having Kiwi, Tuck and JPP as a standard rotation (assuming Osi is gone next year) will work just fine *IF* we can get some quality at LBer.

We get TT back next year (again an ACL so who knows for performance next year), Amukamara has a full year, OTAs and pre-season under his belt.

I don't think our defense needs a total overhaul and I think our defense this year would have been quality except that our DC is mediocre at best (one of the marks of a good DC being able to accomodate injuries/talent levels).

from some people I know - don't plan on seeing T2 back next year. Dont know how reliable this specific piece of info but this source has never let me down before


I hear that about every player in a contract year (or the opposite ... we're DEFINITELY getting XXX player back when its unlikely we'll spend for them (i.e. Boss, Smith, etc ...).

I wouldn't be surprised either way ... but I'd hate to lose TT. I fully expected him to convert to (and excel as) a Safety for years for us.

Given what we did with Kiwi and tried to do with SS, I would think we'll offer him a cheap 1 year deal to prove himself (which is a shame considering an ACL is a two year injury). Whether he takes it or gets better elsewhere ... considering the state of the league, I would think he'll get better offers by desperate teams.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 01:46 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</p>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</p>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***? Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</p>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </p>


</p>

We currently have one de who is playing at a high level and one corner who is playing well. If TT and prince didn't get hurt in the offseason Ross would most likely have been our #4 corner. Instead, he's started every game. Another consequence of these injuries is that rolle has had to cover the slot in multiple games which he never would have had to do. In turn they are probably telling kp to just keep everything in front of him and not take risks.

They need to be giving kiwi more snaps at de because tuck's injury is making him borderline useless. We probably were hoping for some pass rushing from austin this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him now.

We need to retool this defense, starting to wish we got a 2nd rder for osi when we could have.

I totally agree with this. Good summation.

The good news (I think) is that JWill shows promise which would be nice out of a 6th rounder. Goff comes back next year (although off of an ACL I'm not sure you can really expect much) and we should have some cap room as the larger contracts start to shrink (Osi, Tuck, etc ...).

I don't think there is a need to panic at DE ... having Kiwi, Tuck and JPP as a standard rotation (assuming Osi is gone next year) will work just fine *IF* we can get some quality at LBer.

We get TT back next year (again an ACL so who knows for performance next year), Amukamara has a full year, OTAs and pre-season under his belt.

I don't think our defense needs a total overhaul and I think our defense this year would have been quality except that our DC is mediocre at best (one of the marks of a good DC being able to accomodate injuries/talent levels).

from some people I know - don't plan on seeing T2 back next year. Dont know how reliable this specific piece of info but this source has never let me down before


I hear that about every player in a contract year (or the opposite ... we're DEFINITELY getting XXX player back when its unlikely we'll spend for them (i.e. Boss, Smith, etc ...).

I wouldn't be surprised either way ... but I'd hate to lose TT. I fully expected him to convert to (and excel as) a Safety for years for us.

Given what we did with Kiwi and tried to do with SS, I would think we'll offer him a cheap 1 year deal to prove himself (which is a shame considering an ACL is a two year injury). Whether he takes it or gets better elsewhere ... considering the state of the league, I would think he'll get better offers by desperate teams.

well from what I hear T2 wants money that the Giants don't have...

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:53 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc

Drafting trends are cyclical as are positions based on trending offenses/defenses.

And to say LB is the least important position is a far cry from saying an unimportant position.

Our 31st ranked defense happily proves this.

First you strongly disagree that LBers are not the least important unit on the field(i challenge you to name a group that is less important).

No position is unimportant. Noone ever said that.

We had a top 10 defense last year with 2 linebackers on the field on most downs. In 08 we had kehl pierce Clark. Are any of those guys even in the league still??

I don't disagree ... but I also think its a stupid statement. If you agree that it's not an *unimportant* position we can move on ...

Re 2008: Pierce was one of our better MLBs in team history and not surprisingly our leading tackler. Also Chase Blackburn was started more games then Danny Clark and also contributed very well. Of those that you mentioned, only Danny Clark is a free agent and I'll give him a pass ... being 34 and all :P

And it was a different league (yes even as short a time ago as 2008). The passing offenses of today weren't out yet and the rules against defenseless players were either not in place yet (QB rules) or not strictly enforced (incidental contact and crushing the WRs on crossing routes).

Finally, we had one thing in 2008 which we're sorely lacking today to make up for any talent discrepencies ... a fantastic DC.

Wouldn't you agree?

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 01:55 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</p>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</p>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***?* Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</p>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </p>


*</p>

We currently have one de who is playing at a high level and one corner who is playing well. If TT and prince didn't get hurt in the offseason Ross would most likely have been our #4 corner. Instead, he's started every game. Another consequence of these injuries is that rolle has had to cover the slot in multiple games which he never would have had to do. In turn they are probably telling kp to just keep everything in front of him and not take risks.

They need to be giving kiwi more snaps at de because tuck's injury is making him borderline useless. We probably were hoping for some pass rushing from austin this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him now.

We need to retool this defense, starting to wish we got a 2nd rder for osi when we could have.

I totally agree with this. Good summation.

The good news (I think) is that JWill shows promise which would be nice out of a 6th rounder. Goff comes back next year (although off of an ACL I'm not sure you can really expect much) and we should have some cap room as the larger contracts start to shrink (Osi, Tuck, etc ...).

I don't think there is a need to panic at DE ... having Kiwi, Tuck and JPP as a standard rotation (assuming Osi is gone next year) will work just fine *IF* we can get some quality at LBer.

We get TT back next year (again an ACL so who knows for performance next year), Amukamara has a full year, OTAs and pre-season under his belt.

I don't think our defense needs a total overhaul and I think our defense this year would have been quality except that our DC is mediocre at best (one of the marks of a good DC being able to accomodate injuries/talent levels).

from some people I know - don't plan on seeing T2 back next year. Dont know how reliable this specific piece of info but this source has never let me down before


I hear that about every player in a contract year (or the opposite ... we're DEFINITELY getting XXX player back when its unlikely we'll spend for them (i.e. Boss, Smith, etc ...).

I wouldn't be surprised either way ... but I'd hate to lose TT. I fully expected him to convert to (and excel as) a Safety for years for us.

Given what we did with Kiwi and tried to do with SS, I would think we'll offer him a cheap 1 year deal to prove himself (which is a shame considering an ACL is a two year injury). Whether he takes it or gets better elsewhere ... considering the state of the league, I would think he'll get better offers by desperate teams.

well from what I hear T2 wants money that the Giants don't have...




Yeah in that case I'm sure he won't be back (ala Steve Smith).

lawl
12-20-2011, 01:56 PM
i think you guys are crazy.*

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 02:03 PM
i think you guys are crazy.

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 02:10 PM
i think you guys are crazy.*

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT


I would think we'll keep Kiwi as well.

The only person we'd look to replace in the next two years is Osi in my mind. Hopefully Tuck can bounce back next year.

BlueSanta
12-20-2011, 02:16 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen). Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least. DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers. Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tc</p>


Well, everyone on this MB appears to be under the impression that we have good talent at DB and DL, but poor talent at LB.</p>


If LB is the only spot where we have poor talent and is the "least important unit on the field" then why does our defense suck ***? Do you think that it is entirley on the coaches??</p>


Not busting balls, just curious as to what you think about this . . . . </p>


</p>

We currently have one de who is playing at a high level and one corner who is playing well. If TT and prince didn't get hurt in the offseason Ross would most likely have been our #4 corner. Instead, he's started every game. Another consequence of these injuries is that rolle has had to cover the slot in multiple games which he never would have had to do. In turn they are probably telling kp to just keep everything in front of him and not take risks.

They need to be giving kiwi more snaps at de because tuck's injury is making him borderline useless. We probably were hoping for some pass rushing from austin this year, but who knows what's going to happen with him now.

We need to retool this defense, starting to wish we got a 2nd rder for osi when we could have.

I totally agree with this. Good summation.

The good news (I think) is that JWill shows promise which would be nice out of a 6th rounder. Goff comes back next year (although off of an ACL I'm not sure you can really expect much) and we should have some cap room as the larger contracts start to shrink (Osi, Tuck, etc ...).

I don't think there is a need to panic at DE ... having Kiwi, Tuck and JPP as a standard rotation (assuming Osi is gone next year) will work just fine *IF* we can get some quality at LBer.

We get TT back next year (again an ACL so who knows for performance next year), Amukamara has a full year, OTAs and pre-season under his belt.

I don't think our defense needs a total overhaul and I think our defense this year would have been quality except that our DC is mediocre at best (one of the marks of a good DC being able to accomodate injuries/talent levels).

from some people I know - don't plan on seeing T2 back next year. Dont know how reliable this specific piece of info but this source has never let me down before


I hear that about every player in a contract year (or the opposite ... we're DEFINITELY getting XXX player back when its unlikely we'll spend for them (i.e. Boss, Smith, etc ...).

I wouldn't be surprised either way ... but I'd hate to lose TT. I fully expected him to convert to (and excel as) a Safety for years for us.

Given what we did with Kiwi and tried to do with SS, I would think we'll offer him a cheap 1 year deal to prove himself (which is a shame considering an ACL is a two year injury). Whether he takes it or gets better elsewhere ... considering the state of the league, I would think he'll get better offers by desperate teams.

well from what I hear T2 wants money that the Giants don't have...




Yeah in that case I'm sure he won't be back (ala Steve Smith).

I hate to bash a guy who drafts well, but the lack of money we have suffered the last 2 years is 100% on Reese.

You cant give guys like Canty, Bernard, Baas , Rolle huge contracts that gobble up cap space then say "Coefield is asking for too much, or TT is asking for too much".

Reese has got to take the blame for a lot of our pains. This team has holes all over it.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 02:25 PM
i think you guys are crazy.

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT


I would think we'll keep Kiwi as well.

The only person we'd look to replace in the next two years is Osi in my mind. Hopefully Tuck can bounce back next year.

yea I don't get how anybody is so down on Tuck. Dude is clearly just hurt this year. He played a full 16 with a torn labrum before - so im not questioning his toughness. Last year was his best full year as a Giant - can't say hes done at all.

I mean when your neck, hamstring, and toe are all hurt its hard to be yourself. Now granted hes not injured and hes good enough to go, but that doesn't mean hes able to play at his top level

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 02:38 PM
i think you guys are crazy.*

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT


I would think we'll keep Kiwi as well.

The only person we'd look to replace in the next two years is Osi in my mind. Hopefully Tuck can bounce back next year.

yea I don't get how anybody is so down on Tuck. Dude is clearly just hurt this year.* He played a full 16 with a torn labrum before - so im not questioning his toughness.* Last year was his best full year as a Giant - can't say hes done at all.

I mean when your neck, hamstring, and toe* are all hurt its hard to be yourself. Now granted hes not injured and hes good enough to go, but that doesn't mean hes able to play at his top level


Tuck is frustrating to watch. At 100% the man owns the field. Unfortunately he's rarely at 100%.

With that kind of upside, you'd think keeping him would be a no brainer.

However his last two years (next year and 2013) are a combined $16mil of cap space. Consdering his performance this year, do you gamble that kind of money on him being 100% over the next two years?

I would like to see him back ... but I wouldn't trade places with Reese for all the tea in China having to make that decision.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 03:36 PM
i think you guys are crazy.

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT


I would think we'll keep Kiwi as well.

The only person we'd look to replace in the next two years is Osi in my mind. Hopefully Tuck can bounce back next year.

yea I don't get how anybody is so down on Tuck. Dude is clearly just hurt this year. He played a full 16 with a torn labrum before - so im not questioning his toughness. Last year was his best full year as a Giant - can't say hes done at all.

I mean when your neck, hamstring, and toe are all hurt its hard to be yourself. Now granted hes not injured and hes good enough to go, but that doesn't mean hes able to play at his top level


Tuck is frustrating to watch. At 100% the man owns the field. Unfortunately he's rarely at 100%.

With that kind of upside, you'd think keeping him would be a no brainer.

However his last two years (next year and 2013) are a combined $16mil of cap space. Consdering his performance this year, do you gamble that kind of money on him being 100% over the next two years?

I would like to see him back ... but I wouldn't trade places with Reese for all the tea in China having to make that decision.

theres no gamble... he was injured this year. He had his best year ever last year.

and hes owed 3.2 next year and 4 mil the year after, its a no brainer.

Kruunch
12-20-2011, 03:40 PM
i think you guys are crazy.*

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT


I would think we'll keep Kiwi as well.

The only person we'd look to replace in the next two years is Osi in my mind. Hopefully Tuck can bounce back next year.

yea I don't get how anybody is so down on Tuck. Dude is clearly just hurt this year.* He played a full 16 with a torn labrum before - so im not questioning his toughness.* Last year was his best full year as a Giant - can't say hes done at all.

I mean when your neck, hamstring, and toe* are all hurt its hard to be yourself. Now granted hes not injured and hes good enough to go, but that doesn't mean hes able to play at his top level


Tuck is frustrating to watch. At 100% the man owns the field. Unfortunately he's rarely at 100%.

With that kind of upside, you'd think keeping him would be a no brainer.

However his last two years (next year and 2013) are a combined $16mil of cap space. Consdering his performance this year, do you gamble that kind of money on him being 100% over the next two years?

I would like to see him back ... but I wouldn't trade places with Reese for all the tea in China having to make that decision.

theres no gamble... he was injured this year.* He had his best year ever last year.

and hes owed 3.2 next year and 4 mil the year after, its a no brainer.


Well expect that you're forgetting that this isn't the first time he's been nicked up and played under par so its not an abberation exactly (although I side with you here that he'll most likely play a lot better then he has this year barring further injury).

And he's due 7.5 mil next year and 8.3 the year after according to his contract.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/justin-tuck/

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 03:46 PM
i think you guys are crazy.

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT


I would think we'll keep Kiwi as well.

The only person we'd look to replace in the next two years is Osi in my mind. Hopefully Tuck can bounce back next year.

yea I don't get how anybody is so down on Tuck. Dude is clearly just hurt this year. He played a full 16 with a torn labrum before - so im not questioning his toughness. Last year was his best full year as a Giant - can't say hes done at all.

I mean when your neck, hamstring, and toe are all hurt its hard to be yourself. Now granted hes not injured and hes good enough to go, but that doesn't mean hes able to play at his top level


Tuck is frustrating to watch. At 100% the man owns the field. Unfortunately he's rarely at 100%.

With that kind of upside, you'd think keeping him would be a no brainer.

However his last two years (next year and 2013) are a combined $16mil of cap space. Consdering his performance this year, do you gamble that kind of money on him being 100% over the next two years?

I would like to see him back ... but I wouldn't trade places with Reese for all the tea in China having to make that decision.

theres no gamble... he was injured this year. He had his best year ever last year.

and hes owed 3.2 next year and 4 mil the year after, its a no brainer.

MattMeyerBud
12-20-2011, 03:48 PM
i think you guys are crazy.

i just don't think we go high on a DE at all.
You sound like me the year we drafted JPP in the 1st

Yup and kiwi's a free agent after next year too. Gotta have a guy in place so we maintain the 3man rotation.

or we just move Kiwi back to DE and give tuck more reps at DT


I would think we'll keep Kiwi as well.

The only person we'd look to replace in the next two years is Osi in my mind. Hopefully Tuck can bounce back next year.

yea I don't get how anybody is so down on Tuck. Dude is clearly just hurt this year. He played a full 16 with a torn labrum before - so im not questioning his toughness. Last year was his best full year as a Giant - can't say hes done at all.

I mean when your neck, hamstring, and toe are all hurt its hard to be yourself. Now granted hes not injured and hes good enough to go, but that doesn't mean hes able to play at his top level


Tuck is frustrating to watch. At 100% the man owns the field. Unfortunately he's rarely at 100%.

With that kind of upside, you'd think keeping him would be a no brainer.

However his last two years (next year and 2013) are a combined $16mil of cap space. Consdering his performance this year, do you gamble that kind of money on him being 100% over the next two years?

I would like to see him back ... but I wouldn't trade places with Reese for all the tea in China having to make that decision.

theres no gamble... he was injured this year. He had his best year ever last year.

and hes owed 3.2 next year and 4 mil the year after, its a no brainer.


Well expect that you're forgetting that this isn't the first time he's been nicked up and played under par so its not an abberation exactly (although I side with you here that he'll most likely play a lot better then he has this year barring further injury).

And he's due 7.5 mil next year and 8.3 the year after according to his contract.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/justin-tuck/

signing bonus stays no matter what. Misc bonus is incentives

Redeyejedi
12-20-2011, 04:03 PM
Until doc pulls up in the delorean there's nothing we can do......all we have is 2012, kuechly is who I'm hoping for,he'll be better than Lee.....

I was hoping for a new LB scout.
We drafted Linval Jospeh in the second round, not Dillard (5th rounder) And he seems to be doing pretty well.

We didn't draft Sean Lee in the second round because they rated Dillard on the same tier as Lee, whom they expected to be available in the 4th round, hence why they picked Joseph in the second.

In other words, they outsmarted themselves.Lee tore his ACL his senior year and redshirted. His RS Senior year he wasnt the same player at all.The Cowboys took a risk that Lee would return to the player he was before the injury and he did.The Giants didnt want to risk using a 2nd rounder when the guy didnt look like a 2nd round player his Senior year.

Redeyejedi
12-20-2011, 04:27 PM
Lawl made a point to say that in this era of football, the LB has become the least important position on the field and I strongly disagree. In the advent of multiple passing threat offenses (WRs, TE, RB). the LB is the exact spot offenses are attacking right now. Having poor LBers compounds the problem (as we've seen).

Yup. 4-3 linebackers are hands down the least important unit on the field on defense. There's a reason they always fall on draft day and make the least.

DEs DTs and cover guys are all more important to a 43 team's success when compared to LBers.

Our linebackers in 2008 were kehl pierce and Danny Clark. That also happened to be our finest defensive season under tcWe could REALLY use another beastly DE.* Tuck doesnt seem to be his old self, maybe he's just been fighting injury all season, who knows.* As we ALL know, more quality DB's would have been amazing to have this season.

They may be considered the least important part of a 4-3, but teams have been constantly been exploiting out weakness, with the exception of a few games TE's and passes out of the backfield have been killing us


I'd be very surprised if DE wasn't our first pick this year. Before the year thats where I thought they would go.The problem is this is a bad draft to be looking for pass rushers.

gmen0820
12-20-2011, 04:34 PM
It is out of sheer desperation that they have taken a good DE and turned him into a mediocre (I'm being charitable) LB . . . . .


</P>


So playing the pass is the only thing you look for in a LB?</P>


Is that what I said?</P>


Do you think that Kiwi is a good LB?</P>Well you praised him in run support, but claim he is, by your generosity, mediocre.

gmen0820
12-20-2011, 04:42 PM
And for the record, we play a lot of zone but we are hardly a Tampa 2 team.

We started with a bunch of Tampa 2 looks last year.

We quickly ran away from that when even the Martians realized our MLB couldn't cover in space.I would have to disagree with that. We showed a lot of 50 fronts early last year, particularly until Kiwi went IR. We rarely showed Tampa 2 at all, we sprinkled it in, but the Tampa 2 is almost the defensive equivalent to the zone blocking scheme, and it is rarely a base defense.

Perry Fewell is misconceived as a Tampa 2 coach, and that is just that, a misconception. Fewell is a multiple coverage coach, he shows many fronts, coverages and he runs a trust based scheme, and what is sorely lacking this year is trust in our defense.