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View Full Version : After further thought, I'm siding with Schiano on the last play.



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Giants928
09-17-2012, 01:24 PM
It hurts to watch the other team waste the clock out on you for sure. You arent suppoed to, but everyone knows the purpose of those plays and that means you lost and they have the time advantage. I actually don't like the kneel down either and would prefer running plays, but it is what it is. Shooting at the other teams knees hoping to "cause a fumble" is just desparate not sportmanslike.


I also didnt care if ELi was knocked down or not, I've seen fight the kneel down before too. I think the issue, at least to Coughlin, was that they went at the lineman's knees and out line is thin as ever and he saw it as unsportsmanlike.

I think people aren't even looking at it the otehr way either, including Ditka, because he would be the first to whine about a team running the score up and saying it unsportmanlike.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Dude the game was lost, they had no chance. So what if a fumble happened 30 years ago or whaver. This formation has been run 1,000's of times since and noone fumble. Every coach and player in the NFL knows its purpose. The issue is sportsmanship (it's important to some people). It would have been poor sportsmanship if the Giants had pitched left and scored a TD if they had already had the game won. Coughlin is big on sportsmanship. There has been several times where he didnt even call a FG or run the score up on teams he was beating and ran the clock out because he has good sportmanship. So, he didn't like what Schiano pulled and told him personally. Coughlin is a great coach and know the game, I think he is entitled to speak his mind.
That kneel down play has nothing to do with sportsmanship. Its about not risking the ball and running the clock. Its a play that helps you win the game.
I expect my team to try its best to prevent that from happening. No one would suggest that not trying is good sportsmanship. Good sportsmanship comes from playing your *** off and at the end of the game having respect and appreciation for your opponent. Tampa didn't take that play off and we did. No one was being a bad sport.

dezzzR
09-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Not sure if its been said cause MH posting so quick and passionately haha, but now theres reports of our players saying some players on the Bucs were apologizing after the game.

TrueBlue@NYC
09-17-2012, 01:27 PM
If any players are just out there trying to hurt other players for the sake of hurting players, I agree. And thats true no matter whjat the scenario. But thats not TC's beef. It seems that he was just P.O'd about the fact that TB went all out on that play and Eli got knocked off his feet.
To that I say nonsense.

This to me its an interesting argument. I hate when my team gives up on kneel down plays. I can't now criticize other teams for not quitting against us.

Would your opinion be the same if we had lost Baas or Snee for the year b/c they tore an ACL from a DL diving at their knees on a meaningless play?

TB already had their shot to tie the game, and failed.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:31 PM
Would your opinion be the same if we had lost Baas or Snee for the year b/c they tore an ACL from a DL diving at their knees on a meaningless play?

TB already had their shot to tie the game, and failed.
Guys go low on goalline plays all the time. thats good defense. If the TB D linemen were just being ****s and trying to hurt guys thats a different matter. None of us can know exactly what the intention of every player was, but I have to assume their intention was to disrupt the play and cause a fumble.
That is also good football.
As i said, assuming that what I said is true (and none of us can know either way) any injury would probably come from our not being prepared. As I said..they did NOT disguise their intentions. It was clear that they were coming after us.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:32 PM
You hate when your team "gives up" on kneel down plays when they already have the game won?
What?
I said I hate when we give up when the other team is kneeling down.
I really don't think that was hard to understand.

Giants928
09-17-2012, 01:37 PM
I thought you were talking about us kneeling sorry about that. Still there is really nothing anyone can do with the kneel down play, they aren't really giving up. It's part of the game. You are just going to have to accept it.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:37 PM
I thought you were talking about us kneeling sorry about that. Still there is really nothing anyone can do with the kneel down play, they aren't really giving up. It's part of the game. You are just going to have to accept it.
They managed to knock Eli down didn't they. You don't think he could have fumbled?

BigBlue1971
09-17-2012, 01:38 PM
I know some think the Pisarchik play has some relevance to a "be prepared" arguement by it couldn't be further from relevance.

exactly! i dont even know what that idiot jaws is talking about anyway! he said himself Pisarchik was thought to be kneeling down. if he had the game was over.

thats the purpose of the kneel down.

Medisleman
09-17-2012, 01:40 PM
I understand that Coughlin is upset, but to be honest, the game was NOT over. If the Bucs can force a turnover, they are one pass play from tying the game. The field position at the time made it a possibility.

I really haven't thought of this scenario before, so at first, I felt it was a cheap shot. But the Giants should have braced themselves for the Bucs to attempt to go for the ball.

If people disagree, that's cool, but if the Giants were in a similar spot, I could understand if they made one last try to get the ball and hope for a Hail Mary.

This is ridiculous. They could not have recovered a fumble with enough time to run a play even if Eli fumbled. Not to mention trying to injure the linemen is not going to cause a fumble. It isn't like someone leaped over the line to get to Eli and strip him. They just attacked the linemens' legs with their helmets. This is dirty anytime.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 01:42 PM
the reason some are so pissed is becaused it happened to "our team" and we are so acustomed to the kneel down.

TrueBlue@NYC
09-17-2012, 01:43 PM
Guys go low on goalline plays all the time. thats good defense. If the TB D linemen were just being ****s and trying to hurt guys thats a different matter. None of us can know exactly what the intention of every player was, but I have to assume their intention was to disrupt the play and cause a fumble.
That is also good football.
As i said, assuming that what I said is true (and none of us can know either way) any injury would probably come from our not being prepared. As I said..they did NOT disguise their intentions. It was clear that they were coming after us.

I'm also assuming that none of the TB players were intentionally trying to hurt anyone. I get the premise of the call, I'm sure TC gets the premise of the call. What he doesn't agree with is the application, wherein there's a pretty high risk of hurting someone for the possibility of a potential play. We don't even have what the odds of success on it is b/c it hasn't happended before.

I believe Schiano when he says he was hoping to get the ball back, and no it wasn't a cheap shot. But I don't agree with the call because your putting players at such risk hoping to make up in 6 seconds and whole quarters worth of bad football.

Gotta remember, before the "sportsmanship" of conceding on the kneel down victory formation came about I'm sure plenty of teams tried doing exactly what Schiano did right after the formation came about, and all it resulted in was a bunch of hurt guys for no reason.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:44 PM
And I watched the video. I don't know if Eli's knee touched before they knocked him down. I only saw the one angle. Either way, Tampa proved they could knock a QB down on a kneel down play with a clean snap. Imagine if their were a bobble. That was a good play by Tampa. And TC better spend more time being ready for that next time instead of whining about it.
And I like TC a lot. But he was way off base on this one.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:46 PM
I'm also assuming that none of the TB players were intentionally trying to hurt anyone. I get the premise of the call, I'm sure TC gets the premise of the call. What he doesn't agree with is the application, wherein there's a pretty high risk of hurting someone for the possibility of a potential play. We don't even have what the odds of success on it is b/c it hasn't happended before.

I believe Schiano when he says he was hoping to get the ball back, and no it wasn't a cheap shot. But I don't agree with the call because your putting players at such risk hoping to make up in 6 seconds and whole quarters worth of bad football.

Gotta remember, before the "sportsmanship" of conceding on the kneel down victory formation came about I'm sure plenty of teams tried doing exactly what Schiano did right after the formation came about, and all it resulted in was a bunch of hurt guys for no reason.

By doing what? Continuing to play?
I disagree. The danger was created by our inability to see what was easy for anyone to see. that they were coming hard on the play. If someone got hurt it would have been on us.

blueomaha
09-17-2012, 01:46 PM
yes, it was a cheap shot...but the NYG have to be prepared for that BS...just sayin....

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:48 PM
yes, it was a cheap shot...but the NYG have to be prepared for that BS...just sayin....
How so? What would have been your view if they dislodged the ball?
I just don't get the whole "cheap shot" position. They were trying to hit the QB and create a fumble. How on earth is that a cheap shot?

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 01:48 PM
there is a possibility of someone getting hurt on every play in the game

the reason they stress it on the kneel down is because all the offensive players are in a relaxed state due to the unspoken understanding of NFL sportsmanship.

nothing wrong with what Schiano did from a legal standpoint......you have heard the terms.... play to the echo of the whistle....play til the clock reads all zeros........well thats what they did

I understand both sides

Schiano will not make any friends in this league playing that way but there is nothing wrong with it

and he might influence teams to not relax so much on a kneel down in a one score game

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 01:50 PM
there's lots of unwritten rules in the NFL.

theoretically, there's nothing technically wrong with trying to score again with 30 seconds left and you've got the ball on your opponents 20 up by 3 TDs.

being technically right doesn't prevent you from being a ******. schiano is easily a ******.

but like Tuck said, karma is awesome and let's see what it has in store for the bucs.


According to Carl Bank there is a rule regarding this.

Do you remember when Cruz gave himself up last year? Same thing applies here.

When a player gives himself up you are not supposed to hit him.

We''ll have to look into this....

GameTime
09-17-2012, 01:52 PM
According to Carl Bank there is a rule regarding this.

Do you remember when Cruz gave himself up last year? Same thing applies here.

When a player gives himself up you are not supposed to hit him.

We''ll have to look into this....
but the play "starts" when the ball is snapped. So Eli hasnt given himslef up "yet". Look....I dont neccessarily agree with the Bucs decsion but at the same time I dont really think it was so bad......

RagTime Blue
09-17-2012, 01:52 PM
You play to the whistle (which we didn't do during the second qtr. pick-6).

And you play till the final buzzer. Why even take the field if you're not going to play?

I can see if both teams want to waste a play. But just because one team does, doesn't mean the other team MUST. A one-posession game, here.

Hopefully next time we'll block for Eli in a kneel-down.

Play to the end, then call it a win.

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 01:53 PM
Well this didn't take very long.

RULE 7 Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Scrimmage

Section 1 Ball in Play

Article 1: Live Ball. After the ball has been declared ready for play, it becomes a live ball when it is legally
snapped or legally kicked (a free kick or fair catch kick). The ball remains dead if it is snapped or kicked
before it is made ready for play.

Section 2 Dead Ball

Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:

(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner
touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance; or

(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends; or

(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage; or...

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:54 PM
According to Carl Bank there is a rule regarding this.

Do you remember when Cruz gave himself up last year? Same thing applies here.

When a player gives himself up you are not supposed to hit him.

We''ll have to look into this....

The point is to hit him before he has a chance to give himself up. The point is to pressure the QB and force him to make the exchange perfectly from the center and get down fast. Thats a good play by Tampa to do that.
If you look at the film, I can't see if Eli actually got his knee down before he was hit. Either way it was pretty close. Proving that it can be done and that a QB can't just have that kneel down without risk.
I personally hope all teams do this kind of thing from here on out.

Giants928
09-17-2012, 01:54 PM
Bucs' McCoy on last play: "We do what we're coached. I'll leave it at that."

- Doesn't sound very supportive of his coach's call there.

BuffyBlueII
09-17-2012, 01:54 PM
I wonder how Shiano would feel if his Buccaneers are losing to Saints by 30 points with a minute and a half left and Drew Brees is still chucking it to pad his stats like he always does.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 01:55 PM
Well this didn't take very long.

RULE 7 Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Scrimmage

Section 1 Ball in Play

Article 1: Live Ball. After the ball has been declared ready for play, it becomes a live ball when it is legally
snapped or legally kicked (a free kick or fair catch kick). The ball remains dead if it is snapped or kicked
before it is made ready for play.

Section 2 Dead Ball

Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:

(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner
touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance; or

(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends; or

(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage; or...
so the Bucs jumped at the snap....ball not in Eli's hands yet nor his he on his knee. real or simulated.....

Cool Papa B.
09-17-2012, 01:55 PM
I can't remember the exact words he used, but Carl Banks said on WFAn this morning that because of the "Victor Cruz" rule, Schiano was wrong for what he did. he said When a player takes a knee he is ending the play and any hit after that would be considered a late hit.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:56 PM
Well this didn't take very long.

RULE 7 Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Scrimmage

Section 1 Ball in Play

Article 1: Live Ball. After the ball has been declared ready for play, it becomes a live ball when it is legally
snapped or legally kicked (a free kick or fair catch kick). The ball remains dead if it is snapped or kicked
before it is made ready for play.

Section 2 Dead Ball

Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:

(a) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and touches the ground with any part of his body
other than his hands or feet. The ball is dead the instant the runner touches the ground. A runner
touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to
advance; or

(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends; or

(c) when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage; or...

He hadn't taken the knee when they went after him. They did that at the snap. Your point, while well made, is moot.

TrueBlue@NYC
09-17-2012, 01:57 PM
And I watched the video. I don't know if Eli's knee touched before they knocked him down. I only saw the one angle. Either way, Tampa proved they could knock a QB down on a kneel down play with a clean snap. Imagine if their were a bobble. That was a good play by Tampa. And TC better spend more time being ready for that next time instead of whining about it.
And I like TC a lot. But he was way off base on this one.

Great, except the only way top prepare for a person to dive at your legs is to get low and do the same thing. So now when we have the game in hand we're supposed to dive at the opposing teams' legs to prevent them from possibly doing the same? Then we get called for taking cheap shots in a game we already won.

Everything you're saying assumes that teams didn't try doing all of this in the past when the "victory formation" first came out. Teams tried beating it to get the ball back, saw that all it did was cause guys to get hurt. This tradition didn't just come from thin air, there's a reason why it developed. That's why the first thing TC said to Schiano was about player safety.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 01:57 PM
the reason some are so pissed is becaused it happened to "our team" and we are so acustomed to the kneel down.true.. and TC reaction is fuelin the fire

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 01:57 PM
Bucs' McCoy on last play: "We do what we're coached. I'll leave it at that."

- Doesn't sound very supportive of his coach's call there.
So if a player questions our HC you would support the player?

BlueBlooded1979
09-17-2012, 01:58 PM
I get that.....that was my first thought as well (I posted in a different thread that diving at people's knees is dangerous).

But still....if the team recovers the ball, they've got a chance to tie the game.

I understand in the heat of the moment, people are going to be pissed.

I respect the hell out of Tom Coughlin, but honestly, after thinking about it....if the game is not over, it's not over.

You are in the vast minority then. Every analyst from the good ones to the morons say it was a cheap shot. You have to understand that for that play to work (never has BTW) the defense has to surprise the offense which is the definition of a cheap shot. He was perfectly aware that he was going to ambush the Offense and had a very real possibility of getting someone hurt. He took at a huge risk with guys careers for a play that has never worked and got chewed out on national TV for it. His presser made him look like an even bigger scumbag.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 01:59 PM
He hadn't taken the knee when they went after him. They did that at the snap. Your point, while well made, is moot.
I have made that same point twice already....I agree......

joemorrisforprez
09-17-2012, 02:00 PM
This is ridiculous. They could not have recovered a fumble with enough time to run a play even if Eli fumbled. Not to mention trying to injure the linemen is not going to cause a fumble. It isn't like someone leaped over the line to get to Eli and strip him. They just attacked the linemens' legs with their helmets. This is dirty anytime.

There was still time on the clock, so you can disagree, but the defense was legal.

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 02:03 PM
He hadn't taken the knee when they went after him. They did that at the snap. Your point, while well made, is moot.

I was just looking to see what Carl was talking about, and I guess that was it.

I can understand both sides on this one.

It's perfectly legal and makes sense given the score, but it's just not done in this league.

In any case no harm no foul.

joemorrisforprez
09-17-2012, 02:03 PM
You have to understand that for that play to work (never has BTW) the defense has to surprise the offense which is the definition of a cheap shot.

Surprising the defense is not the definition of a cheap shot.

Again, it was a legal play, otherwise it would have been flagged for intentional roughing, roughing the passer, or unsportsmanslike conduct.

Time on the clock.....1 score game.....field position to score.....legal play.

I get that people don't like what Schiano did. But it was within the rules, as Ditka and Jaworski both noted.

SackingMyths
09-17-2012, 02:04 PM
Not gonna skim through the 16 pages of comments, so I apologize in advance if this point was already made.

It'd be VERY clear whether this is acceptable or not if TB's D-Line put Boothe, Baas, and Snee on IR with that senseless tactic.

Don't let the outcome fool you...this was a joke and there's a reason why neither you nor I have EVER seen it done on any level of football.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:09 PM
I wonder how Shiano would feel if his Buccaneers are losing to Saints by 30 points with a minute and a half left and Drew Brees is still chucking it to pad his stats like he always does.
I just don't know how that relates to this scenario. Throwing the ball when you have a big league is generally bad sportsmanship. Its not helping you win a game, as a matter of fact it actually creates chances for turnovers which can hurt your chances. Its just showing up the other team.
Tampa was trying to make a play to help them win the game. Yes it was a n extreem longshot, but they did knock Eli down and he definately could have fumbled.
You guys are comparing apples to oranges here. I have no problem with a guy trying to win a football game and asking his players to play hard to do so. If there were 5 seconds and they were down 2 scores I would absolutely agree. But they were a score down. It was still possible.

Giants928
09-17-2012, 02:10 PM
So if a player questions our HC you would support the player?

Not sure what exactly you are asking, but seems like this player didn't agree with it. Why not support the player? If the coach said get at the other team's knees, he has a right to have an opinion. Seems like this is the case.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 02:10 PM
Any defense that takes cheap shots on a kneel down should be penalized as it would for hitting a QB sliding. If it occurs at the end of the game the team should be fined $1 million.

dezzzR
09-17-2012, 02:10 PM
true.. and TC reaction is fuelin the fireTC still shook his hand! :)

Giants928
09-17-2012, 02:14 PM
It's as "legal" as the other team running the score up and not wasting the clock, but not "sportsmanlike." Just stating the obvious.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:16 PM
Great, except the only way top prepare for a person to dive at your legs is to get low and do the same thing. So now when we have the game in hand we're supposed to dive at the opposing teams' legs to prevent them from possibly doing the same? Then we get called for taking cheap shots in a game we already won.

Everything you're saying assumes that teams didn't try doing all of this in the past when the "victory formation" first came out. Teams tried beating it to get the ball back, saw that all it did was cause guys to get hurt. This tradition didn't just come from thin air, there's a reason why it developed. That's why the first thing TC said to Schiano was about player safety.

How is the game already won when you have time on the clock and you're within a score. If the team ahead has the ball and they fumble then the game is NOT already won. I guess we have different definitions of "already won".
As for the evolution of that play. I have never heard that. I'm not saying its not true but I have just never heard it. I have heard for players today saying that they had no problem with it.
I guess in general, I don't want to see my team give an opponent one, two or even three free kneel downs. I just hate that. I want my team to try to anticipate the count and either jump the line or push the center into the QB to try to disrupt the play. I just don't want them getting that for free.

Kruunch
09-17-2012, 02:19 PM
At the time it happened I thought it was just a small thing done by a frustrated team that had been winning large the whole game.

But the fact that Schiano defended it (and even worse, called for it) made me really lose a lot of respect for him.

You're going to lose games now and again ... lose gracefully.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:20 PM
It's as "legal" as the other team running the score up and not wasting the clock, but not "sportsmanlike." Just stating the obvious.
Its not the same at all. Running up the score isn't helping you win, its only an attempt to show up the other team. Trying to cause a QB to fumble in a kneel down play is an attempt to win the game and not quit.
I am all against the first and all for the second.

njsean
09-17-2012, 02:23 PM
Its not the same at all. Running up the score isn't helping you win, its only an attempt to show up the other team.

I disagree. Running up the score has a psychological impact on future opponents. I see nothing wrong with it.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 02:25 PM
TC still shook his hand! :)hahaha i saw that, i lol'd

TC : "GOD DAMNIT, YOU CHEAP *** ROOKIE COACH HOW DARE YOU!!!, oh and btw good game sir" shakes hand lol

Giants928
09-17-2012, 02:25 PM
You are missing the point, it's legal but seen as unsportsmanlike. Really not much else to it, however you look at it.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:28 PM
You are missing the point, it's legal but seen as unsportsmanlike. Really not much else to it, however you look at it.
Thats where you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think trying to create a fumble on a kneel down play, when its your only chance is poor sportsmanship.
I actually wish we would do it.

G.I. Ants
09-17-2012, 02:30 PM
Some of his players weren't fans of that call as well, McCoy stated that they just played what the coach told them too.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 02:31 PM
You are missing the point, it's legal but seen as unsportsmanlike. Really not much else to it, however you look at it.play to the end.. on offence or defence imo

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:32 PM
Any defense that takes cheap shots on a kneel down should be penalized as it would for hitting a QB sliding. If it occurs at the end of the game the team should be fined $1 million.
You know of course that you are allowed to hit a QB before he slides...right?
You are also allowed to try to hit a QB before he kneels down.

Dwinsballgames
09-17-2012, 02:33 PM
While I agree that it was a cheap shot, there is actually no rule against doing it. So it's not the same thing as a slide at all.

Rodgers12
09-17-2012, 02:34 PM
Glad nobody got hurt.

Giants928
09-17-2012, 02:36 PM
It's not really "me" it's how the many players and coaches see it. It's just that, when a kneel down play is called, it's obviously announcing to the other team "we have the ball and are going to kill the clock, like it or not." This particular play might have created a different scenario considering the field position and the score, but generally to dive at the knees in these plays "to create a fumble" is seen as unsportsmanlike, as in people can get hurt.

Let's say, just as an example the Cowboys were up two touchdowns and had posession with 1 minute left, are you screaming for the Giants to get the ball when Dallas is in victory formation? That the general concept here.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 02:37 PM
You know of course that you are allowed to hit a QB before he slides...right?
You are also allowed to try to hit a QB before he kneels down.
Kneel down in a victory formation in essence is a GIVE UP play even before the play is run, in that sense the opponent shouldn't even be engaging. I think trying to break the QB's neck on such a play is a cheap shot.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:38 PM
Well then maybe the NFL needs to invent a new formality to take the place of the kneel down... Maybe they can just notify the ref and not bother with the formality of the snap.

Or maybe Coughlin should start putting Carr in to take a knee.
Or maybe we should block it up because defenses have a right to try to create a fumble and win the game.

"How dare they actually play hard after we informed them that they had lost and we were taking a knee"

Kruunch
09-17-2012, 02:39 PM
You know of course that you are allowed to hit a QB before he slides...right?
You are also allowed to try to hit a QB before he kneels down.

That's quibbly ... even for you. :p

ny06
09-17-2012, 02:40 PM
play to the end.. on offence or defence imo
That’s true, but the thing I want to know is did Eli and the o-lineman tell the bucs "we’re taking a kneel down" and did the bucs say ok? Or did they say no we're going full force. If we get those answers than we can truly make a better opinion on the matter.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:41 PM
Kneel down in a victory formation in essence is a GIVE UP play even before the play is run, in that sense the opponent shouldn't even be engaging. I think trying to break the QB's neck on such a play is a cheap shot.
The team that is ahead doesn't get to order the opposing team to stop trying to win. thats a load of crap.
They have every right to try to disrupt the play and try to create a fumble. Even when the offense "informs" the defense that they have lost the game.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:43 PM
That's quibbly ... even for you. :p
I'm dead serious. They were trying to hit Eli before he has a chance to take a knee. There is nothing wrong with that.
I hate that friggin kneel down play. And I hate that we allow our opponents to run it without challenge. Like last week.

Rudyy
09-17-2012, 02:43 PM
Or maybe we should block it up because defenses have a right to try to create a fumble and win the game.

"How dare they actually play hard after we informed them that they had lost and we were taking a knee" Why would you decide to play hard with 5 seconds left?

Giants928
09-17-2012, 02:47 PM
I think yesterday's play was different considering that they were down by one touchdown, in Giant's territory, with basically no time on the clock. It was a desparation call by Schiano as much as its legal to do so. Yesterday's situation was arguable, still seen as unsportsmanlike by most people because the Giants are announcing they are kneeling on the ball. If the game is out of reach there is no reason to dive at the opponents legs unless you want to be viewed as a cheap shot or sore loser. Generally, the victory formation is when a team has a considerate lead and the opposing team has NO CHANCE to win.

Dwinsballgames
09-17-2012, 02:48 PM
Kneel down in a victory formation in essence is a GIVE UP play even before the play is run, in that sense the opponent shouldn't even be engaging. I think trying to break the QB's neck on such a play is a cheap shot.

I guess in that respect it's like a slide. However, technically speaking, neither of those plays are give-up plays until the player with the ball actually gives up. I think that's what MS is saying. The distinction with the kneel-down is that everybody in the entire universe knows the QB is about to give himself up and on that particular play yesterday, it is my understanding that the Giants actually told TB that they were going to kneel. That still doesn't make what TB did illegal, just extremely dangerous and in that respect, it was a cheap shot.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:49 PM
Thatís true, but the thing I want to know is did Eli and the o-lineman tell the bucs "weíre taking a kneel down" and did the bucs say ok? Or did they say no we're going full force. If we get those answers than we can truly make a better opinion on the matter.
They lined up in a way that left no doubt what their intentions were. You don't get to inform the trailing team that they have lost. You actually have to play until the clock says "0".

yoeddy
09-17-2012, 02:53 PM
there is a possibility of someone getting hurt on every play in the game

the reason they stress it on the kneel down is because all the offensive players are in a relaxed state due to the unspoken understanding of NFL sportsmanship.

nothing wrong with what Schiano did from a legal standpoint......you have heard the terms.... play to the echo of the whistle....play til the clock reads all zeros........well thats what they did

I understand both sides

Schiano will not make any friends in this league playing that way but there is nothing wrong with it

and he might influence teams to not relax so much on a kneel down in a one score game

Based on the way the Bucs lined up on that play, I can't imagine that them coming was a surprise to anyone on the Oline...so from that perspective, I wouldn't have expected the offensive players to be in a relaxed state...

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 02:54 PM
I guess in that respect it's like a slide. However, technically speaking, neither of those plays are give-up plays until the player with the ball actually gives up. I think that's what MS is saying. The distinction with the kneel-down is that everybody in the entire universe knows the QB is about to give himself up and on that particular play yesterday, it is my understanding that the Giants actually told TB that they were going to kneel. That still doesn't make what TB did illegal, just extremely dangerous and in that respect, it was a cheap shot.
You can announce your intentions if you like but the defense doesn't have to accept defeat because the offense informs them that they have lost.
Its not a give up play until you give up. And you don't give up until you actually take a knee. The defense has every right, and quite frankly every obligation, to try to prevent that QB from giving himself up. Since that would mean defeat.

You guys would all love it if we did that to Romo and he fumbled the ball to us. It would be "genius!!" But I guess not if it happens to us.

Dwinsballgames
09-17-2012, 02:55 PM
Why would you decide to play hard with 5 seconds left?

There were 34 seconds on the clock.

Dwinsballgames
09-17-2012, 02:57 PM
You can announce your intentions if you like but the defense doesn't have to accept defeat because the offense informs them that they have lost.
Its not a give up play until you give up. And you don't give up until you actually take a knee. The defense has every right, and quite frankly every obligation, to try to prevent that QB from giving himself up. Since that would mean defeat.

You guys would all love it if we did that to Romo and he fumbled the ball to us. It would be "genius!!" But I guess not if it happens to us.

I understand what you're saying MS, but why is this the first time we have heard of this happenning (or is it just me)?
can it be that there is some unspoken rule or understannding between NFL teams that you don't rush on that play?

byron
09-17-2012, 03:00 PM
You can announce your intentions if you like but the defense doesn't have to accept defeat because the offense informs them that they have lost.
Its not a give up play until you give up. And you don't give up until you actually take a knee. The defense has every right, and quite frankly every obligation, to try to prevent that QB from giving himself up. Since that would mean defeat.

You guys would all love it if we did that to Romo and he fumbled the ball to us. It would be "genius!!" But I guess not if it happens to us. yeah I got a problem with negotiating how a game go's or ends....play the game

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:03 PM
I understand what you're saying MS, but why is this the first time we have heard of this happenning (or is it just me)?
can it be that there is some unspoken rule or understannding between NFL teams that you don't rush on that play?
I don't know. I really don't. Maybe they think its impossible.
I just don't see a problem lining up and forcing them to make that exchange and kneel down without any bobbles.
Not even talking about the TB play. Just in general. Just keep playing hard.

fizzlesticks
09-17-2012, 03:04 PM
There were 34 seconds on the clock.
No, it was 5.

ny06
09-17-2012, 03:05 PM
They lined up in a way that left no doubt what their intentions were. You don't get to inform the trailing team that they have lost. You actually have to play until the clock says "0".
Something doesn't add up here, the Bucs lined up like it was a 4th and 1 with 10 mins left in the game. So did the Giants just get lackadaisical? Antonio Pierce mentioned it earlier, that the end of the game at the kneel down players would say "hey we're taking a kneel down, take it easy" and the opponents would either say yes or no. So my question is was that conversation brought up? Everyone who understands the game knows that players play till the game is over, but this was a desperate move by a team that should know better.
Tom Coughlin has coached more pro football than Greg Schiano can ever dream of, so we have to ask ourselves, if Tom Coughlin was pissed about the play, and he knows every single rule the NFL implements. Than we should be ticked off as well.

byron
09-17-2012, 03:05 PM
I understand what you're saying MS, but why is this the first time we have heard of this happenning (or is it just me)?
can it be that there is some unspoken rule or understannding between NFL teams that you don't rush on that play? there shouldn't be Imo...its a play... the OL needs to block protect Eli and themselves... Eli needs to get the ball and kneel down as quick as possible

Dwinsballgames
09-17-2012, 03:07 PM
No, it was 5.

The clock says 34 on the video. OOps ., my bad you're right it was 5

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 03:08 PM
You can announce your intentions if you like but the defense doesn't have to accept defeat because the offense informs them that they have lost.
Its not a give up play until you give up. And you don't give up until you actually take a knee. The defense has every right, and quite frankly every obligation, to try to prevent that QB from giving himself up. Since that would mean defeat.

You guys would all love it if we did that to Romo and he fumbled the ball to us. It would be "genius!!" But I guess not if it happens to us.

They were doing them a favor by taking a knee and not trying to run up the score or get a player on either team hurt in the 2nd game on a meaningless snap. You’re crazy to think this was about trying to get a miracle fumble return for a touchdown it was more about being sore losers after blowing a big lead .They didn’t just go for the fumble they went after the knees of the O-linemen bush league move by an overrated college coach

GameTime
09-17-2012, 03:08 PM
blah blah blah
yada yada yada...
this thread should be shot like a wounded horse.....its done and over.....

:cool:

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:09 PM
Something doesn't add up here, the Bucs lined up like it was a 4th and 1 with 10 mins left in the game. So did the Giants just get lackadaisical? Antonio Pierce mentioned it earlier, that the end of the game at the kneel down players would say "hey we're taking a kneel down, take it easy" and the opponents would either say yes or no. So my question is was that conversation brought up? Everyone who understands the game knows that players play till the game is over, but this was a desperate move by a team that should know better.
Tom Coughlin has coached more pro football than Greg Schiano can ever dream of, so we have to ask ourselves, if Tom Coughlin was pissed about the play, and he knows every single rule the NFL implements. Than we should be ticked off as well.

TC was pissed because he expected them to lay down like everyone else does. And they didn't, so his QB got hit. Thats all on TC and his coaching staff.

nhpgiantsfan
09-17-2012, 03:10 PM
This is a situation where I can confidently feel that everyone who disagrees with me is just wrong. It's a fascinating study in subjective thinking based on the laundry color. If we did what the Bucs did last week against the Cowboys and caused a fumble and sent the game to OT where Eli won it, we would love it.

But since it happened to us, and our HC didnt like it, we boo it.

I don't support/respect any opinion that suggest players shouldn't do things just because they "DON'T" do them. Bully for Schiano for never let his players lay down. I also find it fascinating to observe how people question others' fanhood for not following the herd opinion.

SERIOUSLY? People disappoint me.

Perfectly said!!

If we did it, and caused a fumble and then tied the game, this entire MB would be going nuts on how we didn't give up, and we "finished"! There is no doubt in my mind that, that would be the reaction here, and everyone knows it...

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:14 PM
They were doing them a favor by taking a knee and not trying to run up the score or get a player on either team hurt in the 2nd game on a meaningless snap. Youíre crazy to think this was about trying to get a miracle fumble return for a touchdown it was more about being sore losers after blowing a big lead .They didnít just go for the fumble they went after the knees of the O-linemen bush league move by an overrated college coach
And you know this how?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:16 PM
Great, except the only way top prepare for a person to dive at your legs is to get low and do the same thing. So now when we have the game in hand we're supposed to dive at the opposing teams' legs to prevent them from possibly doing the same? Then we get called for taking cheap shots in a game we already won.

Everything you're saying assumes that teams didn't try doing all of this in the past when the "victory formation" first came out. Teams tried beating it to get the ball back, saw that all it did was cause guys to get hurt. This tradition didn't just come from thin air, there's a reason why it developed. That's why the first thing TC said to Schiano was about player safety.
So in what games did players get hurt? When did it happen and who were the players?

Husky
09-17-2012, 03:17 PM
That's why they have the Victory Formation. Have you ever heard of it happening since?

wuzpapn
09-17-2012, 03:18 PM
All I want to know - has there EVER been an instance in the NFL where a fumble occured as a team was trying to kneel, or run out the clock?

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 03:19 PM
And you know this how?

Know what that they went for there knees? The players said that afterwards that they dove at there knees. How would that cause Eli to fumble and if this is somthing they always do why didn't they try that when the giants took a knee at the end of the 2nd quarter?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:20 PM
That's why they have the Victory Formation. Have you ever heard of it happening since?
They have the "Victory formation" to built a tight cocoon around the QB to protect him.
TB proved yesterday that you can knock a QB down and possibly cause a fumble. After all the "false outrage" in the league, I hope someone (especially us) takes notes the next time Drew Brees or Tony Romo try to take a knee after they have "informed" us that we lost.

Ruttiger711
09-17-2012, 03:22 PM
Another point - how many of the Schiano defenders think he genuinely "didn't know this is how it's done in the NFL?" as he stated in the presser? It's an obvious lie/cover - and why do that? Because even he knows it was bush.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:24 PM
The team that is ahead doesn't get to order the opposing team to stop trying to win. thats a load of crap.
They have every right to try to disrupt the play and try to create a fumble. Even when the offense "informs" the defense that they have lost the game.
I didn't say what they did was illegal, I'm saying what they did is bush league. I think Coughlin should put in Carr for any kneel downs from now because I'm concerned about his blood pressure.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:30 PM
I didn't say what they did was illegal, I'm saying what they did is bush league. I think Coughlin should put in Carr for any kneel downs from now because I'm concerned about his blood pressure.
I don't know how trying to make a play and actually line up and try to create a turnover, when its your only chance is "bush" league.
I just don't get that kind of thinking. The whole "thats just the way its done" argument doesn't wash with me.
I expect us to line up and try to disrupt a kneel down play the next time someone does it to us.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:30 PM
You can announce your intentions if you like but the defense doesn't have to accept defeat because the offense informs them that they have lost.
Its not a give up play until you give up. And you don't give up until you actually take a knee. The defense has every right, and quite frankly every obligation, to try to prevent that QB from giving himself up. Since that would mean defeat.

You guys would all love it if we did that to Romo and he fumbled the ball to us. It would be "genius!!" But I guess not if it happens to us.
I think what Coughlin is upset about is not that Bucs didn't lay down as gracious losers, but that the tactic they have deployed, tackling at the knees of our OL, didn't show any regard for the safety of our players, that is bush league to me.

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 03:34 PM
I don't know how trying to make a play and actually line up and try to create a turnover, when its your only chance is "bush" league.
I just don't get that kind of thinking. The whole "thats just the way its done" argument doesn't wash with me.
I expect us to line up and try to disrupt a kneel down play the next time someone does it to us.

Because it’s more likely to end up in an injury then a fumble that’s picked up and returned for a td. If Eli tore his ACL on that play you would be singing a different tune.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 03:35 PM
I don't know how trying to make a play and actually line up and try to create a turnover, when its your only chance is "bush" league.
I just don't get that kind of thinking. The whole "thats just the way its done" argument doesn't wash with me.
I expect us to line up and try to disrupt a kneel down play the next time someone does it to us.
Come on Bro....even though you dont agree with you can certainly see how many fans would think it was bush league. You can certainly see both sides of the story.
Did I think it was BS?.... Yes I did. Do I really care?....No I dont. It was within the rules of the game.

Diamondring
09-17-2012, 03:37 PM
Because itís more likely to end up in an injury then a fumble thatís picked up and returned for a td. If Eli tore his ACL on that play you would be singing a different tune.No he wouldn't, he'll be happy. He hates Eli and the Giants.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:37 PM
I think what Coughlin is upset about is not that Bucs didn't lay down as gracious losers, but that the tactic they have deployed, tackling at the knees of our OL, didn't show any regard for the safety of our players, that is bush league to me.
I promise you that 15 seconds after the play he didn't know what tactics they used. He was pissed because he assumed that on a kneel down play, his QB wasn't getting knocked down. They were just supposed to lay down like we did with Romo the week before. Its simply "not done".

I for one, hope that changes.

abjr
09-17-2012, 03:38 PM
A cheap shot is when you do something that has no material impact on the game....and the play was designed to get the ball.
Going for someone's knees is a cheap shot whether it's the first or last play of the game. Please stop trying to justify it.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:39 PM
I hope every team that plays Bucs runs up the score on even a blow out game, no kneel downs, and when Schiano crys foul and all that, the opponent team could simply reply by saying, "Hey, I learned to play to the last second from you Schiano boy.", yeah that would be hilarious.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:40 PM
Come on Bro....even though you dont agree with you can certainly see how many fans would think it was bush league. You can certainly see both sides of the story.
Did I think it was BS?.... Yes I did. Do I really care?....No I dont. It was within the rules of the game.
I already explained earlier how i understand how it looks on the surface. Especially when it happens to our QB. But when you get down to it and try to be objective, I don't think its a bad play at all. They managed to knock a QB down on a kneel down play. He could have definately fumbled. Thats like discovering plutonium.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:41 PM
I hope every team that plays Bucs runs up the score on even a blow out game, no kneel downs, and when Schiano crys foul and all that, the opponent team could simply reply by saying, "Hey, I learned to play to the last second from you Schiano boy.", yeah that would be hilarious.
If I'm down a score with no timeouts and less than 2:00 on the clock, I am praying that they throw the ball.

wuzpapn
09-17-2012, 03:42 PM
All I want to know - has there EVER been an instance in the NFL where a fumble occured as a team was trying to kneel, or run out the clock?
I only ask this because if it's never happened before, WHY was Schiano attempting it?

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:42 PM
I promise you that 15 seconds after the play he didn't know what tactics they used. He was pissed because he assumed that on a kneel down play, his QB wasn't getting knocked down. They were just supposed to lay down like we did with Romo the week before. Its simply "not done".

I for one, hope that changes.
The sport is already violent as it is, why should every play count, even when it's meaningless, like a blow out game? Do you like seeing the players get hurt unnecessarily or what?

GameTime
09-17-2012, 03:43 PM
I already explained earlier how i understand how it looks on the surface. Especially when it happens to our QB. But when you get down to it and try to be objective, I don't think its a bad play at all. They managed to knock a QB down on a kneel down play. He could have definately fumbled. Thats like discovering plutonium.
No...its like "almost discovering" plutonium. Eli didnt fumble.....:)
Not dogging you and I agree with your veiw point on the whole deal but I just had to bust your chops. I also busted your chops in the "Did you notice" thread too......:)

GameTime
09-17-2012, 03:44 PM
The sport is already violent as it is, why should every play count, even when it's meaningless, like a blow out game? Do you like seeing the players get heart unnecessarily or what?
down by 1 score is not a blowout game. Every play does count...even a kneel down since it runs the clock. No play is meaningless.
As I think it was BS I also know its within the rules and way too much is being made of it.....

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 03:46 PM
They were doing them a favor by taking a knee and not trying to run up the score or get a player on either team hurt in the 2nd game on a meaningless snap. Youíre crazy to think this was about trying to get a miracle fumble return for a touchdown it was more about being sore losers after blowing a big lead .They didnít just go for the fumble they went after the knees of the O-linemen bush league move by an overrated college coach
or TB was just trying to make a play and we just thought the game was over with 5 seconds left to go.
we'll be ready to play to the end of the game from now on is my guess

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:46 PM
I only ask this because if it's never happened before, WHY was Schiano attempting it?
A 9-7 team had never won a SB. Should we have forfeited in last years playoffs?

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:47 PM
down by 1 score is not a blowout game. Every play does count...even a kneel down since it runs the clock. No play is meaningless.
As I think it was BS I also know its within the rules and way too much is being made of it.....
I wasn't talking about this game, I was making a point in general. It's not possible to make every play count, is my point.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:47 PM
The sport is already violent as it is, why should every play count, even when it's meaningless, like a blow out game? Do you like seeing the players get hurt unnecessarily or what?
Is this post meant to be a joke?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:48 PM
I wasn't talking about this game, I was making a point in general. It's not possible to make every play count, is my point.
But you are supposed to try to make every play count....aren't you?

wuzpapn
09-17-2012, 03:48 PM
I think it's ridiculous. It's close to impossible to cause a fumble when it takes less than a second to get the snap and go on one knee. It's just not needed.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:49 PM
A 9-7 team had never won a SB. Should we have forfeited in last years playoffs?
You are trying to make a connection that isn't there, stop being so dramatic.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 03:49 PM
I wasn't talking about this game, I was making a point in general. It's not possible to make every play count, is my point.
Every play does count Bro. Its either good for D or good for the O but it certainly counts. I am missing that point you are trying to make. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I dont see your logic here....

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:50 PM
But you are supposed to try to make every play count....aren't you?
Not in a more than one score blow out game and the losing team doesn't have the ball with 2 seconds to go.

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 03:50 PM
or TB was just trying to make a play and we just thought the game was over with 5 seconds left to go.
we'll be ready to play to the end of the game from now on is my guess

Diving at linemenís knees thatís supposed to make Eli fumble is that your guess too?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:50 PM
You are trying to make a connection that isn't there, stop being so dramatic.
It seemd to me you were saying that since something had never happened, they shouldn't try to make it happen.
As a matter of fact, that was exactly what you were saying.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:51 PM
Every play does count Bro. Its either good for D or good for the O but it certainly counts. I am missing that point you are trying to make. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I dont see your logic here....
How do you make a play count when you are down by 21 points and 2 seconds left, by tackling at the knees of the opposing OL in their victory formation? What do you accomplish? NOTHING.

wuzpapn
09-17-2012, 03:52 PM
I think Schiano was just highly butthurt that he blew the lead against a team of our caliber. He wanted this game badly to show that he has turned around that Tampa Bay organization, but it didn't go accordingly to the 2-0 start he had in mind. As a way of getting his last "**** you" across, he ordered his D-Line to "Attempt to cause Eli to fumble" with one snap left. Then he wants to use the excuse that "we should keep playing until the play clock expires".

Just a highly butt hurt head coach. You could see it in his face when he was forced to Punt after stuffing Doug Martin in the 4th.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:52 PM
Diving at linemenís knees thatís supposed to make Eli fumble is that your guess too?
It got Eli on his ***. Are you saying that he couldn't have fumble that ball? May I remind you of the times when he fumbled when no one touched him?

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 03:52 PM
Diving at linemen’s knees that’s supposed to make Eli fumble is that your guess too?pressure is pressure.. anything can happen

GameTime
09-17-2012, 03:52 PM
How do you make a play count when you are down by 21 points and 2 seconds left, by tackling at the knees of the opposing OL in their victory formation? What do you accomplish? NOTHING.
WTF>>>>they were down by 7 points!! What are you talking about??
Do thinks the BUcs do that if they are down by 21???

OX1
09-17-2012, 03:53 PM
Will be ironic when the Bucs suffer an injury due to their lines
getting blown up on every kneel down (on both sides of the ball)
now that Schiano opened up that can of worms.

From a season long strategic viewpoint, Bucs now stand a billion times '
better chance at losing a lineman than getting anything from that rediculous "play".
My guess the rest of the league will not follow suit, so it will be just the Bucs who
are involved in that crap, week after week (and whoever they play that week).
Hope they like that bed, as the rest of the league will have no choice but to
"hit" them with it every time.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:53 PM
How do you make a play count when you are down by 21 points and 2 seconds left, by tackling at the knees of the opposing OL in their victory formation? What do you accomplish? NOTHING.
Are you using the Base 10 system here?
It seems to me that we were up 7 points.

G-MENBK
09-17-2012, 03:53 PM
I could probably understand it if there was over a minute left in the game, but 5 seconds?

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:54 PM
It seemd to me you were saying that since something had never happened, they shouldn't try to make it happen.
As a matter of fact, that was exactly what you were saying.
No, I only said that Bucs were bush league, but what you are trying to make comparable is not even in the same category. It leaks of desperation of salvaging a losing argument.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:55 PM
WTF>>>>they were down by 7 points!! What are you talking about??
Do thinks the BUcs do that if they are down by 21???
Every play counts according to you, no? Why should a score change their playing philosophy?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:55 PM
Will be ironic when the Bucs suffer an injury due to their lines
getting blown up on every kneel down (on both sides of the ball)
now that Schiano opened up that can of worms.

From a season long strategic viewpoint, Bucs now stand a billion times '
better chance at losing a lineman than getting anything from that rediculous "play".
My guess the rest of the league will not follow suit, so it will be just the Bucs who
are involved in that crap, week after week (and whoever they play that week).
Hope they like that bed, as the rest of the league will have no choice but to
"hit" them with it every time.

In general, when an opponent is thinking about anything other than their jobs on the field, (like injuring other players) your chances of winning go up.

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 03:57 PM
pressure is pressure.. anything can happen

Then I guess they should have tired it at the end of the 2nd quarter when the giants took a knee. Play hard every snap right?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 03:57 PM
No, I only said that Bucs were bush league, but what you are trying to make comparable is not even in the same category. It leaks of desperation of salvaging a losing argument.
No....This was your quote....


I only ask this because if it's never happened before, WHY was Schiano attempting it?

GameTime
09-17-2012, 03:58 PM
Every play counts according to you, no? Why should a score change their playing philosophy?
the game is played to the situation you are in. You are making 0 sense. Of course you dont go all out on kneel down if you are behind 21 with 5 seconds left.
Your logic is...well....illogical....
good luck and have a nice day.....

giantsfan420
09-17-2012, 03:59 PM
Every play counts according to you, no? Why should a score change their playing philosophy?
based on shianos premise, the score shouldnt matter. he said they will play hard til the refs say the games over. the refs dont call the game when a teams up 21 points. of course it seems ludacris to us that a coach would tell his players to do that down 21, its ludacris to me a coach would instruct that down 7...

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 03:59 PM
Are you using the Base 10 system here?
It seems to me that we were up 7 points.
What does score matter? The play is VERY LOW PERCENTAGE of being successful, not only that, they have to get a 40 yard TD pass possibly in one play just to tie, that's a very low percentage, but here you are acting like recovering the fumble automatically leads to Bucs winning the game and that bush league play is worth trying. No it's not, and Schiano is being a sore loser.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 04:00 PM
Then I guess they should have tired it at the end of the 2nd quarter when the giants took a knee. Play hard every snap right?
No....the Bucs were winning and you have whole other half to play. The play at the end of the game was a desparation play...
you see the dif. Play the game to the situation you are currently in...Thats the way its done.....

GameTime
09-17-2012, 04:02 PM
based on shianos premise, the score shouldnt matter. he said they will play hard til the refs say the games over. the refs dont call the game when a teams up 21 points. of course it seems ludacris to us that a coach would tell his players to do that down 21, its ludacris to me a coach would instruct that down 7...
playing the game hard until the refs say its over doesnt just mean go all out on a kneel down with 5 seconds left in a desparation play. It means give it your all until its done and if the Giants were up by 10 I would bet that scenario would not have happened.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:03 PM
based on shianos premise, the score shouldnt matter. he said they will play hard til the refs say the games over. the refs dont call the game when a teams up 21 points. of course it seems ludacris to us that a coach would tell his players to do that down 21, its ludacris to me a coach would instruct that down 7...
It was a longshot obviously. But playing that play hard and trying to create a turnover isn't bush league. It isn't poor sportsmanship. It may be desperate but there's nothing wrong with that. I wish we had lined up against Romo at the end of last weeks game and tried to disrupt his 3 kneel down plays.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 04:03 PM
the game is played to the situation you are in. You are making 0 sense. Of course you dont go all out on kneel down if you are behind 21 with 5 seconds left.
Your logic is...well....illogical....
good luck and have a nice day.....
Being down by 7 with 5 seconds to go and needing a 40 yard TD pass just to tie is also not very logical to try that bush league stunt, stop acting like Bucs let one get away if they aren't trying that bush league play, it's still a desperation move that is meaningless in reality.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 04:04 PM
Then I guess they should have tired it at the end of the 2nd quarter when the giants took a knee. Play hard every snap right?considering they were leading it wouldnt be worth the risk..

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 04:05 PM
No....This was your quote....

I only ask this because if it's never happened before, WHY was Schiano attempting it?
No it isn't, look up the poster name.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 04:06 PM
Being down by 7 with 5 seconds to go and needing a 40 yard TD pass just to tie is also not very logical to try that bush league stunt, stop acting like Bucs let one get away if they aren't trying that bush league play, it's still a desperation move that is meaningless in reality.
dont tell me how I am reacting or acting. The Bucs wanted a fumble and run in for a TD. There was no time for a fumble recovery and TD pass. Did you even watch the game and know wtf was going on?????
It was a desparation play that may be veiwed as bush league but it was illegal.

G-MENBK
09-17-2012, 04:07 PM
It was a longshot obviously. But playing that play hard and trying to create a turnover isn't bush league. It isn't poor sportsmanship. It may be desperate but there's nothing wrong with that. I wish we had lined up against Romo at the end of last weeks game and tried to disrupt his 3 kneel down plays.

Difference between that game and this game is a whopping 1:55. Understandable if the Giants tried it. This game? I think you'd have a better shot dodging rain during a thunderstorm.

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 04:07 PM
No....the Bucs were winning and you have whole other half to play. The play at the end of the game was a desparation play...
you see the dif. Play the game to the situation you are currently in...Thats the way its done.....
He said “what I do with our football team is we fight until they tell us game over” game wasn’t over in the 2nd quarter. Tampa’s own players were embarrassed about doing it and blamed it on their coach. I’m sure Tampa’s offense isn’t looking forward to someone trying this on them.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 04:09 PM
He said “what I do with our football team is we fight until they tell us game over” game wasn’t over in the 2nd quarter. Tampa’s own players were embarrassed about doing it and blamed it on their coach. I’m sure Tampa’s offense isn’t looking forward to someone trying this on them.
I agree it was BS but I also agree it was a legal play. He and his team will or may have to suffere the consequences. Thats all on him....

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 04:09 PM
No, I only said that Bucs were bush league, but what you are trying to make comparable is not even in the same category. It leaks of desperation of salvaging a losing argument.i agree its desperate.. but they were so.. it was a defensive hail mary

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:10 PM
No it isn't, look up the poster name.
Oops... Sorry. I was confused when you replied. Not the first time I've been confused.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:12 PM
Difference between that game and this game is a whopping 1:55. Understandable if the Giants tried it. This game? I think you'd have a better shot dodging rain during a thunderstorm.
Yet we didn't.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 04:12 PM
dont tell me how I am reacting or acting. The Bucs wanted a fumble and run in for a TD. There was no time for a fumble recovery and TD pass. Did you even watch the game and know wtf was going on?????
It was a desparation play that may be veiwed as bush league but it was illegal.
Who cares what you think how Bucs should recover and score, the point is it's a desperation play and illogical and bush league.

You just admitted it's illegal, haha. good.

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 04:13 PM
I agree it was BS but I also agree it was a legal play. He and his team will or may have to suffere the consequences. Thats all on him....
Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s not bush league

Diamondring
09-17-2012, 04:15 PM
Oops... Sorry. I was confused when you replied. Not the first time I've been confused.I want to ask you a question. What the Bucs did in the last play?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:15 PM
Who cares what you think how Bucs should recover and score, the point is it's a desperation play and illogical and bush league.

You just admitted it's illegal, haha. good.
Let me ask you as a general question. Do you have a problem with a defense lining up, maybe trying to anticipate the count and trying to disrupt a kneel down play?

pino
09-17-2012, 04:16 PM
The issue has NOTHING to do with percentages or playing until the whistle, in my opinion.

I don't care if there is a "small chance". In my opinion, it was roughing the passer and Schiano's lucky he doesn't get fined like the players do. Eli knelt down and still took a hit. That's a personal foul. But seriously, how can you enforce it at the end of the game? It should be made clear that it is an illegal play just like a QB slide. If it makes a defense feel better, make it manditory that an offense call a kneel down so that there is no trick play involved.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:16 PM
I want to ask you a question. What the Bucs did in the last play?
I don't know what this means.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:17 PM
The issue has NOTHING to do with percentages or playing until the whistle, in my opinion.

I don't care if there is a "small chance". In my opinion, it was roughing the passer and Schiano's lucky he doesn't get fined like the players do. Eli knelt down and still took a hit. That's a personal foul. But seriously, how can you enforce it at the end of the game? It should be made clear that it is an illegal play just like a QB slide. If it makes a defense feel better, make it manditory that an offense call a kneel down so that there is no trick play involved.

Roughing the passer? You know that there actually has to be a pass for that call to be made....right?

GameTime
09-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s not bush league
I did admit it was Bush league already and WTF are you so argumentitive?? Not the first time either.

G-MENBK
09-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Yet we didn't.

I don't think I tried to convey myself as insinuating that we did. Again, if there was more time on the game clock, I would think nothing of it if the Bucs did that. With 5 seconds left in the game, it becomes a joke and a half.

pino
09-17-2012, 04:20 PM
Roughing the passer? You know that there actually has to be a pass for that call to be made....right?

You know what I mean. Personal foul. When you are in the act of kneeling, you are defenseless, just like a QB slide. You cannot get out of the way when they bullrush.

giant-4-life
09-17-2012, 04:20 PM
Let me ask you as a general question. Do you have a problem with a defense lining up, maybe trying to anticipate the count and trying to disrupt a kneel down play?

nope. not when we were ahead and the only smart move was to run out the clock. bucs are classless. trust me, the team they play next WILL see that last play on film

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:23 PM
I don't think I tried to convey myself as insinuating that we did. Again, if there was more time on the game clock, I would think nothing of it if the Bucs did that. With 5 seconds left in the game, it becomes a joke and a half.
Well the opposing coach doesn't get to decide what is a reasonable chance on a play. TC had no right to get pissed at the TB HC. His team could see what the defense was doing and played it soft anyway. If anyone had been hurt it would have been on us.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 04:24 PM
Let me ask you as a general question. Do you have a problem with a defense lining up, maybe trying to anticipate the count and trying to disrupt a kneel down play?
Yes I think it's very unsportsmanlike. It's the equivalent of breaching a Geneva Convention rule of shooting the surrendering enemy in cold blood for unnecessary casualty.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:24 PM
You know what I mean. Personal foul. When you are in the act of kneeling, you are defenseless, just like a QB slide. You cannot get out of the way when they bullrush.
Thats not a foul. Its a foul if you see him kneel and then hit him anyway. You have every right to go after him and try to knock the ball out before he kneels.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 04:25 PM
Well the opposing coach doesn't get to decide what is a reasonable chance on a play. TC had no right to get pissed at the TB HC. His team could see what the defense was doing and played it soft anyway. If anyone had been hurt it would have been on us.
TC had every right to get pissed. He can do what ever he wants. Just like you have an opnion and a veiw point so does TC. He thought it was BS, no matter what the rules, and he let Schiano know. No big deal thats just the way things are....

Diamondring
09-17-2012, 04:25 PM
I don't know what this means.You don't wow? What the Bucs did in the last play was dived at the Giant's blockers knocking them back into Eli. Do you think that is legal?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:26 PM
Yes I think it's very unsportsmanlike. It's the equivalent of breaching a Geneva Convention rule of shooting the surrendering enemy in cold blood for unnecessary casualty.
So last week, if we had lined up against Romo and he rushed the play and fumble and we recovered, you would have called TC bush league and wanted to give back the win. (if we won).
Is that right?

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 04:26 PM
It was a longshot obviously. But playing that play hard and trying to create a turnover isn't bush league. It isn't poor sportsmanship. It may be desperate but there's nothing wrong with that. I wish we had lined up against Romo at the end of last weeks game and tried to disrupt his 3 kneel down plays.

There comes a point when you are better off conceding defeat. There were 5 seconds left to go. Has any team ever disrupted a kneel-down and gone on to win?

I liken it to running up the score. Of course you can do it, but why bother?

Hakeeeem88
09-17-2012, 04:27 PM
I did admit it was Bush league already and WTF are you so argumentitive?? Not the first time either.

Won’t be the last time either it’s a msg board don’t except everyone to agree with you..I didn’t read all your post so if you said it was bush league then why defend it?

pino
09-17-2012, 04:27 PM
Well the opposing coach doesn't get to decide what is a reasonable chance on a play. TC had no right to get pissed at the TB HC. His team could see what the defense was doing and played it soft anyway. If anyone had been hurt it would have been on us.

That's where I disagree. Coughlin can get mad because it was cheap shot using "play until the whistle" as a shield. Sure it wasn't illegal, but hopefully the league will change that.

Diamondring
09-17-2012, 04:27 PM
Thats not a foul. Its a foul if you see him kneel and then hit him anyway. You have every right to go after him and try to knock the ball out before he kneels.They didn't go after Eli. They attacked his teammates and they hit Eli.

pino
09-17-2012, 04:28 PM
Thats not a foul. Its a foul if you see him kneel and then hit him anyway. You have every right to go after him and try to knock the ball out before he kneels.

LOL dude he DID kneel and got hit anyways.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:28 PM
You don't wow? What the Bucs did in the last play was dived at the Giant's blockers knocking them back into Eli. Do you think that is legal?
I think its very legal. Not only legal, but a great play. They actually knocked Eli down on a kneel down play. thats a great play. Trust me, if he had fumbled, all these guys with their false outrage on TV would have praised Sciano for that "brilliant" play.

G-MENBK
09-17-2012, 04:28 PM
Well the opposing coach doesn't get to decide what is a reasonable chance on a play. TC had no right to get pissed at the TB HC. His team could see what the defense was doing and played it soft anyway. If anyone had been hurt it would have been on us.

What? It's on us if anyone got injured on that play?

Guy, 5 seconds. For you it could be an astronomical amount of time, whereas others see it as being miniscule.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:29 PM
LOL dude he DID kneel and got hit anyways.
Honestly, I watched the play several times and couldn't tell if his knee touched or not. Either way it was close. And the league doesn't expect players to stop in mid air. That was a play where you launch with all you have at the snap.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 04:30 PM
Won’t be the last time either it’s a msg board don’t except everyone to agree with you..I didn’t read all your post so if you said it was bush league then why defend it?
not between you and me so why interject.. I didnt and dont expect to be agreed with. Thats not the point. If you have ever followed SNYG postes he can be over the top to some degree and he gets unecesasarily abrasive at times. Not a big deal I was just calling him ot on it that all....

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:31 PM
What? It's on us if anyone got injured on that play?

Guy, 5 seconds. For you it could be an astronomical amount of time, whereas others see it as being miniscule.
If one team is playing hard on a play (and Tampa made it very clear as they lined up) and the other team isn't, thats on the team not playing hard.

G-MENBK
09-17-2012, 04:34 PM
If one team is playing hard on a play (and Tampa made it very clear as they lined up) and the other team isn't, thats on the team not playing hard.

You should consider getting a job as an "analyst" once Skip Clueless retires.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 04:35 PM
So last week, if we had lined up against Romo and he rushed the play and fumble and we recovered, you would have called TC bush league and wanted to give back the win. (if we won).
Is that right?
Do you really want Giants to win a game bush league style? I don't.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:36 PM
You should consider getting a job as an "analyst" once Skip Clueless retires.
No reason to get personal. If a team isn't playing hard and the other team is, thats where injuries come from. Do you disagree?

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 04:36 PM
It was a longshot obviously. But playing that play hard and trying to create a turnover isn't bush league. It isn't poor sportsmanship. It may be desperate but there's nothing wrong with that. I wish we had lined up against Romo at the end of last weeks game and tried to disrupt his 3 kneel down plays.

There comes a point when you are better off conceding defeat. There were 5 seconds left to go.

Has any team ever disrupted a kneel-down and gone on to win?

I liken it to running up the score. Of course you can do it, but why bother?

pino
09-17-2012, 04:37 PM
Honestly, I watched the play several times and couldn't tell if his knee touched or not. Either way it was close. And the league doesn't expect players to stop in mid air. That was a play where you launch with all you have at the snap.

I admit it was tough to see. I thought I saw him kneel then got pushed back by his own guy getting bullrushed.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying Morehead. I would like to see the league adjust the rules where you can call a kneel down just like a fair catch. My only reason is that when you are in the act of kneeling, and you have to do it quickly for obvious reasons, you cannot get out of the way if they bullrush like that. It's just like the QB slide to me. The act of ending the play has been initiated. The only difference is that the slide was intended to protect the QB, and the kneel is a method to ensure victory without risking a turnover. Well I think they need to make the kneel down a method to ensure victory AND protect QB. Because we are going to see more plays like this if it gets out of hand and someone WILL get hurt.

At some point sportsmanship has to take over the "win at all cost" mentality. To me, if I'm out of timeouts and they can run out the clock with a kneeldown; game, set, match.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:38 PM
Do you really want Giants to win a game bush league style? I don't.
You are telling me that it doesn't bother you that we just stood there while the Cowboys ran three kneel down plays last week. Romo has a history of fumbles in big spots. Why on earth would we not line up and play hard at the snap. Thats football. When did that become "bush" league?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:39 PM
There comes a point when you are better off conceding defeat. There were 5 seconds left to go.

Has any team ever disrupted a kneel-down and gone on to win?

I liken it to running up the score. Of course you can do it, but why bother?
I still haven't conceded defeat in the Flipper Anderson game!

G-MENBK
09-17-2012, 04:39 PM
No reason to get personal. If a team isn't playing hard and the other team is, thats where injuries come from. Do you disagree?

Yeah because - again - there was only 5 seconds left.

We'll see where Schiano really stands when other teams attempt what he pulled off.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:40 PM
[QUOTE=pino;490449]I admit it was tough to see. I thought I saw him kneel then got pushed back by his own guy getting bullrushed.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying Morehead. I would like to see the league adjust the rules where you can call a kneel down just like a fair catch. My only reason is that when you are in the act of kneeling, and you have to do it quickly for obvious reasons, you cannot get out of the way if they bullrush like that. It's just like the QB slide to me. The act of ending the play has been initiated. The only difference is that the slide was intended to protect the QB, and the kneel is a method to ensure victory without risking a turnover. Well I think they need to make the kneel down a method to ensure victory AND protect QB. Because we are going to see more plays like this if it gets out of hand and someone WILL get hurt.

At some point sportsmanship has to take over the "win at all cost" mentality. To me, if I'm out of timeouts and they can run out the clock with a kneeldown; game, set, match.[/QUOTE
__________________________________________________ __________________________________



If both teams are playing hard its just another football play. The problem with yesterday is that the Giants offense didn't recognize what we all saw...that the Bucs were going after the play.

OX1
09-17-2012, 04:42 PM
In general, when an opponent is thinking about anything other than their jobs on the field, (like injuring other players) your chances of winning go up.

Not talking about anyone thinking about injuries (or trying to injure anyone), talking about the injuries that happen just by the extra contact.
Are you saying there is a better chance to cause a fumble vs getting an injury if both lines go at it full force?

Putting the rule legality and/or sportmanship issues aside, it was a poor choice for the future due to the infinitesimal
odds of success vs the possible downside.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:43 PM
Yeah because - again - there was only 5 seconds left.

We'll see where Schiano really stands when other teams attempt what he pulled off.
I assume he'll block it and be ready. Which we were not.

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 04:43 PM
You are telling me that it doesn't bother you that we just stood there while the Cowboys ran three kneel down plays last week. Romo has a history of fumbles in big spots. Why on earth would we not line up and play hard at the snap. Thats football. When did that become "bush" league?
Why should it bother me that Cowboys are being smart taking care of the ball and the clock? That's what they are suppose to do.

GMENAGAIN
09-17-2012, 04:44 PM
How about this scenario . . . . .

Same situation in the game. Giants get into kneel-down formation, Eli starts to go to his knee then suddenly stands up and fires a strike to Cruz, who is streaking down the field for a TD. Would that be "bush"? There's still time left in the game, right? Why not keep competing up to the final whistle?

G-MENBK
09-17-2012, 04:44 PM
I assume he'll block it and be ready. Which we were not.

You know what happens when you try to assume something?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:45 PM
Not talking about anyone thinking about injuries (or trying to injure anyone), talking about the injuries that happen just by the extra contact.
Are you saying there is a better chance to cause a fumble vs getting an injury if both lines go at it full force?

Putting the rule legality and/or sportmanship issues aside, it was a poor choice for the future due to the infinitesimal
odds of success vs the possible downside.
Maybe...But some competitors can't stand by and watch an opposing team take a knee without trying to disrupt it.
Honestly...I like that attitude in the NFL.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:48 PM
How about this scenario . . . . .

Same situation in the game. Giants get into kneel-down formation, Eli starts to go to his knee then suddenly stands up and fires a strike to Cruz, who is streaking down the field for a TD. Would that be "bush"? There's still time left in the game, right? Why not keep competing up to the final whistle?
It would be more stupid than bush. Why risk the football like that and risk it getting tipped and picked. In other words, that would actually lessen your chance of winning the game.
But yes..its bush because it doesn't help your team win the game. Giving a team a free play at a kneel down isn't good sportsmanship in my view. Its just quitting when you think you've lost.

pino
09-17-2012, 04:48 PM
Let me ask you like this Morehead, would it be worth all the potential injuries that can occur until we finally see a successful turnover from a play like that?

Perhaps you do, and that is fine. I personally don't think it is. That's why I think the league should ammend the rules to include calling for a kneel down to end the game.

Eli2Shockey4aTD
09-17-2012, 04:50 PM
Shotgun formation, kneel. Yah there is a chance of a bad snap, but at least the QB wont fall to the ground on his arm.

OX1
09-17-2012, 04:54 PM
Let me ask you like this Morehead, would it be worth all the potential injuries that can occur until we finally see a successful turnover from a play like that?

Perhaps you do, and that is fine. I personally don't think it is. That's why I think the league should ammend the rules to include calling for a kneel down to end the game.

Yes and mainly due to it's chance of success is so small, it is not worth it (for the league, teams, or players).
BUT not until the Bucs have an entire season of EVERY kneel down being blown up by every team that plays them.

njg85m
09-17-2012, 04:54 PM
How about this scenario . . . . .

Same situation in the game. Giants get into kneel-down formation, Eli starts to go to his knee then suddenly stands up and fires a strike to Cruz, who is streaking down the field for a TD. Would that be "bush"? There's still time left in the game, right? Why not keep competing up to the final whistle?

That's using the failed assumption that the replacement refs would be able to even remotely comprehend all of that happening without one of those mongoloids blowing a whistle.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 04:55 PM
Let me ask you like this Morehead, would it be worth all the potential injuries that can occur until we finally see a successful turnover from a play like that?

Perhaps you do, and that is fine. I personally don't think it is. That's why I think the league should ammend the rules to include calling for a kneel down to end the game.
Its just another play. Anyone can get hurt on any play.
You can make those kinds of arguments forever.
Is it worth even playing football since so many players are so badly hurt?
Is it worth having cars since so many people die on the roads?

I don't know. I just don't like defenses standing around because the other team informed them that they lost and were going to a kneel down. Its just not football to me.

OX1
09-17-2012, 04:58 PM
Its just another play. Anyone can get hurt on any play.
You can make those kinds of arguments forever.
Is it worth even playing football since so many players are so badly hurt?
Is it worth having cars since so many people die on the roads?

I don't know. I just don't like defenses standing around because the other team informed them that they lost and were going to a kneel down. Its just not football to me.

ALL the other plays have a billion times better chance than this (even an on-side or 65 yard field goal), apples and oranges.
I liken it to preseason, where you are beating up your guys for no reason. The odds of this being successfull (once all teams
are ready for it) are real close to a preseaosn touchdown counting towards the regular season, zippo.

Eli2Shockey4aTD
09-17-2012, 05:00 PM
The play is pointless and risks players for no reason. Even if you have a rookie QB and center, the most you can do is hope that they have seen you do it and are spooked by it. Good luck with that. If Snee had his knee get busted or Eli fell on his throwing arm clutching his arm, all hell would have broken loose.

pino
09-17-2012, 05:01 PM
Its just another play. Anyone can get hurt on any play.
You can make those kinds of arguments forever.
Is it worth even playing football since so many players are so badly hurt?
Is it worth having cars since so many people die on the roads?

I don't know. I just don't like defenses standing around because the other team informed them that they lost and were going to a kneel down. Its just not football to me.

Like I said, I understand your point, but we are only talking about the last play of the game. Playing until the end is noble, but it's really not necessary if the team is just going to kneel. It's over. Good game.

njsean
09-17-2012, 05:02 PM
ALL the other plays have a billion times better chance than this (even an on-side or 65 yard field goal), apples and oranges.

I don't get why people in this thread have so much a problem with "how little a chance" of success it had. You know what has an even lesser chance of helping you win? Doing nothing.

Why wouldn't you want to take ANY chance to win? You only play 16 of these. SMH.

Astorian
09-17-2012, 05:03 PM
Let me ask you like this Morehead, would it be worth all the potential injuries that can occur until we finally see a successful turnover from a play like that?

Perhaps you do, and that is fine. I personally don't think it is. That's why I think the league should ammend the rules to include calling for a kneel down to end the game.

The problem with 'calling for a kneel down' is that it put no onus on the offence to execute a play. The offence is required to attempt to complete a play, even the simplest play, in order to use up clock. No play, no clock movement. Even calling for a fair catch puts the onus on the O to catch the ball.

njsean
09-17-2012, 05:04 PM
The play is pointless and risks players for no reason. Even if you have a rookie QB and center, the most you can do is hope that they have seen you do it and are spooked by it. Good luck with that. If Snee had his knee get busted or Eli fell on his throwing arm clutching his arm, all hell would have broken loose.

Why would the Bucs care one iota if a Giants player gets hurt because he wasn't ready for them NOT to just lay down?

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 05:05 PM
ALL the other plays have a billion times better chance than this (even an on-side or 65 yard field goal), apples and oranges.
I liken it to preseason, where you are beating up your guys for no reason. The odds of this being successfull (once all teams
are ready for it) are real close to a preseaosn touchdown counting towards the regular season, zippo.
How many bobbled snaps take place in a season? Plenty. Any of those in a kneel down could be a turnover. But not when you stand around on defense and concede defeat.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 05:05 PM
. That's why I think the league should ammend the rules to include calling for a kneel down to end the game.

never happen, youre basically giving the refs the power to call the game before time runs out..

what if this game was the SB? and we were TB? would anyone be upset if we attempted this?

GMENAGAIN
09-17-2012, 05:08 PM
It would be more stupid than bush. Why risk the football like that and risk it getting tipped and picked. In other words, that would actually lessen your chance of winning the game.
But yes..its bush because it doesn't help your team win the game. Giving a team a free play at a kneel down isn't good sportsmanship in my view. Its just quitting when you think you've lost.

I was assuming that the QB would only throw the ball if his guy was streaking down the field all alone . . . .

OX1
09-17-2012, 05:09 PM
I don't get why people in this thread have so much a problem with "how little a chance" of success it had. You know what has an even lesser chance of helping you win? Doing nothing.

Why wouldn't you want to take ANY chance to win? You only play 16 of these. SMH.

I think it was a smuck move. But that aside, talk to the coach of the first guy that loses his pro boal center
on one of these, which I can see happen this year (if all teams did it on all kneels from here on out)
vs. the guy that is successful doing this in 2027. Winning at all costs I get it, unless it's a stupid move
and has a much better chance at hurting your season than actually winning that game. It's just common sense.

GMENAGAIN
09-17-2012, 05:10 PM
How many bobbled snaps take place in a season? Plenty. Any of those in a kneel down could be a turnover. But not when you stand around on defense and concede defeat.

Why do you think that no defensive team has ever caused a fumble in an end-of-the-game kneel down situation in NFL history?

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 05:10 PM
there is a possibility of someone getting hurt on every play in the game

the reason they stress it on the kneel down is because all the offensive players are in a semi relaxed state due to the unspoken understanding of NFL sportsmanship.

nothing wrong with what Schiano did from a legal standpoint......you have heard the terms.... play to the echo of the whistle....play til the clock reads all zeros........well thats what they did

I understand both sides

Schiano will not make any friends in this league playing that way but there is nothing wrong with it

and he might influence teams to not relax so much on a kneel down in a one score game

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 05:10 PM
I was assuming that the QB would only throw the ball if his guy was streaking down the field all alone . . . .
And if he drops it the clock stops.
You can't beat me on this one.

pino
09-17-2012, 05:13 PM
never happen, youre basically giving the refs the power to call the game before time runs out..

what if this game was the SB? and we were TB? would anyone be upset if we attempted this?

I think you misunderstood. The offense would be calling for the kneel down in my scenario, not the refs.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 05:15 PM
I think you misunderstood. The offense would be calling for the kneel down in my scenario, not the refs.
Why would the offense be given the power to prevent the defense from even being allowed to try to make a play.
Sounds kind of silly to me. It IS football after all.

GMENAGAIN
09-17-2012, 05:15 PM
And if he drops it the clock stops.
You can't beat me on this one.
With one second left? By the time he releases the ball the clock has expired.

lol . . . .I'm just ball-busting now . . . . . .

GMENAGAIN
09-17-2012, 05:16 PM
there is a possibility of someone getting hurt on every play in the game

the reason they stress it on the kneel down is because all the offensive players are in a semi relaxed state due to the unspoken understanding of NFL sportsmanship.

nothing wrong with what Schiano did from a legal standpoint......you have heard the terms.... play to the echo of the whistle....play til the clock reads all zeros........well thats what they did

I understand both sides

Schiano will not make any friends in this league playing that way but there is nothing wrong with it

and he might influence teams to not relax so much on a kneel down in a one score game
Perfectly put.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 05:16 PM
I think you misunderstood. The offense would be calling for the kneel down in my scenario, not the refs.maybe i am. arent you basically saying the refs would be telling the Defence to basically 'do nothing, games over' ?

OX1
09-17-2012, 05:17 PM
How many bobbled snaps take place in a season? Plenty. Any of those in a kneel down could be a turnover. But not when you stand around on defense and concede defeat.

Plenty, but not with 10 of your own guys in the box, you 2 inches behind the center, knee close to down.
You can't compare what happened with an entire line not ready to what will happen when the O-line is ready.
The QB will have his knee down (within an inch of the ground), his face will up the centers arse, his hands will
be within an inch of the ball. Defense will be offsides if they even touch an offesive lineman by the time this
kneeldown is over.

With all that said, someone might have a chance on us if Diehl gets healthy, HAHA!!

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 05:19 PM
Plenty, but not with 10 of your own guys in the box, you 2 inches behind the center, knee close to down.
You can't compare what happened with an entire line not ready to what will happen when the O-line is ready.
The QB will have his knee down (within an inch of the ground), his face will up the centers arse, his hands will
be within an inch of the ball. Defense will be offsides if they even touch an offesive lineman by the time this
kneeldown is over.

With all that said, someone might have a chance on us if Diehl gets healthy, HAHA!!
If Eli had bobbled the snap yesterday he would probably have fumbled since he was hit shortly after the snap. Thats my argument. If you focus on getting to the QB with all you have you can capitalize on a bobbled snap.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 05:21 PM
and he might influence teams to not relax so much on a kneel down in a one score gameyup.. great for the league imo. they should actually encourage defenses to do this.

zimonami
09-17-2012, 05:22 PM
I just don't know how that relates to this scenario. Throwing the ball when you have a big league is generally bad sportsmanship. Its not helping you win a game, as a matter of fact it actually creates chances for turnovers which can hurt your chances. Its just showing up the other team.
Tampa was trying to make a play to help them win the game. Yes it was a n extreem longshot, but they did knock Eli down and he definately could have fumbled.
You guys are comparing apples to oranges here. I have no problem with a guy trying to win a football game and asking his players to play hard to do so. If there were 5 seconds and they were down 2 scores I would absolutely agree. But they were a score down. It was still possible.
If a team is within 8 points they most certainly can create a fumble, as TB could have done yesterday when Eli fell down at the end.
The thing is, the final chicken kneel has become expected, when under some circumstances, like less than 8 pts, the losing and defending team should have every right to play the down 'hard'.
It's just that no one has done this for a while. It has become expected. Perhaps it shouldn't be... just alert the OLine to be ready to block, for real, until they hear the whistle.
Is that hard? No.
Now, there was a game back in Joe Montana's day... mighta been the Saints, definitely in SF. SF had the ball with a second on the clock and about a 21 point lead, and 70-80 yards from a TD. Joe takes the snap, fakes a kneel, and launches a pass way down field. He overthrew his wide open, uncovered WR. He overhtrew it, so nothing happened... but, it could have, like Dan Marino's fake spike against the Jets.
Probably the very best advice the commissioner can give would be for the offense to be prepared to block, for real, if there's another play.
Schiano broke the etiquette, and for that he should have been reamed by TC because someone, any unsuspecting lineman for the most part, could get seriously hurt. But, it ought to be played as a real down for that one second it takes for the exchange and the kneel.

Diamondring
09-17-2012, 05:24 PM
It is illegal to tackle a player who does not have the ball. Bucs made a mistake and should get fined. I've seen some teams be aggresive on kneel downs but not like the way the Bucs did it. I think they even timed the snapp wrong and hit the center before the ball went to Eli's hands. I bet he didn't even have the ball.

bandwgn86
09-17-2012, 05:25 PM
It is illegal to tackle a player who does not have the ball. Bucs made a mistake and should get fined. I've seen some teams be aggresive on kneel downs but not like the way the Bucs did it. I think they even timed the snapp wrong and hit the center before the ball went to Eli's hands. I bet he didn't even have the ball.how is it any different than what they do on shortyardage plays?

Astorian
09-17-2012, 05:26 PM
Another way of looking at the play is to compare it to a defensive player holding on to a ball-carrier, preventing him from touching the ground, while a teammate tries to strip the ball. That is clearly legal and ethical. Therefore, one coud make the argument that there is nothing unethical about trying, using legal defensive technique, to disrupt the C-QB exchange. As long as the QB's knee has not yet touched the ground, he is fair game.

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 05:34 PM
I still haven't conceded defeat in the Flipper Anderson game!

LOL

repeatchamps
09-17-2012, 05:34 PM
The fact that Coughlin complained about it on the field and in the press conference makes this a mess. From his standpoint, he's protecting the players and quite honestly I agree with him it was cheap. However the fact that he made a stink about this allows the hatred for the Giants to just grow to new heights. Already the majority of the media is labeling the Giants as whiners in response to Coughlin's comments. So the hatred that already exists out there for the Giants just balloons. I guess I shouldn't care about it, I hope they use the hate as motivation to win the Super Bowl again and drive everyone nuts lol.

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 06:02 PM
If a team is within 8 points they most certainly can create a fumble, as TB could have done yesterday when Eli fell down at the end.
The thing is, the final chicken kneel has become expected, when under some circumstances, like less than 8 pts, the losing and defending team should have every right to play the down 'hard'.
It's just that no one has done this for a while. It has become expected. Perhaps it shouldn't be... just alert the OLine to be ready to block, for real, until they hear the whistle.
Is that hard? No.
Now, there was a game back in Joe Montana's day... mighta been the Saints, definitely in SF. SF had the ball with a second on the clock and about a 21 point lead, and 70-80 yards from a TD. Joe takes the snap, fakes a kneel, and launches a pass way down field. He overthrew his wide open, uncovered WR. He overhtrew it, so nothing happened... but, it could have, like Dan Marino's fake spike against the Jets.
Probably the very best advice the commissioner can give would be for the offense to be prepared to block, for real, if there's another play.
Schiano broke the etiquette, and for that he should have been reamed by TC because someone, any unsuspecting lineman for the most part, could get seriously hurt. But, it ought to be played as a real down for that one second it takes for the exchange and the kneel.

I only disagree with the notion that they should warn the offense. Why should they? Its not their job. They made no secret of their intentions with the aggressive way they lined up. Quite honestly they should have reacted to this with better protection. If they had faked like they weren't going to play hard and then did, that would be different. But thats not what happened. They showed their hand early, and we didn't react properly to it
Thats on us. Its not their obligation to tell the offense that they were going to play hard.

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 06:05 PM
If a team is within 8 points they most certainly can create a fumble, as TB could have done yesterday when Eli fell down at the end.
The thing is, the final chicken kneel has become expected, when under some circumstances, like less than 8 pts, the losing and defending team should have every right to play the down 'hard'.
It's just that no one has done this for a while. It has become expected. Perhaps it shouldn't be... just alert the OLine to be ready to block, for real, until they hear the whistle.
Is that hard? No.
Now, there was a game back in Joe Montana's day... mighta been the Saints, definitely in SF. SF had the ball with a second on the clock and about a 21 point lead, and 70-80 yards from a TD. Joe takes the snap, fakes a kneel, and launches a pass way down field. He overthrew his wide open, uncovered WR. He overhtrew it, so nothing happened... but, it could have, like Dan Marino's fake spike against the Jets.
Probably the very best advice the commissioner can give would be for the offense to be prepared to block, for real, if there's another play.
Schiano broke the etiquette, and for that he should have been reamed by TC because someone, any unsuspecting lineman for the most part, could get seriously hurt. But, it ought to be played as a real down for that one second it takes for the exchange and the kneel.

very well put Zimmy

dante3
09-17-2012, 06:32 PM
not sure about that. every commentator I heard thought that was cheap. also I believe and I could be wrong that the NFL put in a rule that when you take the knee like that the play is over. can't do what McNabb (?) did one year where he took the knee then stood up and thru a touchdown pass. The Giant lineman all said they told the bucs they were taking a knee. I'm guessthere was no indication from them that they wouldn't respond in kind. If i was any other coach in the NFL and I'm beating the Bucs with a few seconds left I would line up like victory formation and throw the ball to I think would be a wide open receiver. Everyone would call that bush league and I would agree except in this case since Schiano thinks you need to play til last second. I think that would teach him a lesson about sportsmanship. Best way to get hurt is when you're not prepared for the hit and that's exactly what happened. I'll bet the Bucs players are embarassed by their actions.

BigBlueAllDay
09-17-2012, 06:32 PM
No one said the play was illegal so yes it was a legal play. It's just a poor show of sportsmanship since he's the only guy and team to do it in a while. The kneel down is repected by every other team except them apparently and I'm sure the Bucs would be unhappy if other teams started doing that to them when they're kneeling down for victories (so basically they're full of you know what). The game is not officially over, but there's a general understanding that it is when the team starts kneeling. A better idea would be just ending the game instead of having the team do kneel downs solely for the clock. It would just be kinda weird when games end at the 2 minute warning because the other team doesn't have timeouts. lol

GameTime
09-17-2012, 06:34 PM
It is illegal to tackle a player who does not have the ball. Bucs made a mistake and should get fined. I've seen some teams be aggresive on kneel downs but not like the way the Bucs did it. I think they even timed the snapp wrong and hit the center before the ball went to Eli's hands. I bet he didn't even have the ball.
you move on the snap not when the QB actually gets it.....
who got tackled?? They ran into the O line like the dline does on any other play. While it may have been BS it certainly was legal.....

repeatchamps
09-17-2012, 06:47 PM
not sure about that. every commentator I heard thought that was cheap. also I believe and I could be wrong that the NFL put in a rule that when you take the knee like that the play is over. can't do what McNabb (?) did one year where he took the knee then stood up and thru a touchdown pass. The Giant lineman all said they told the bucs they were taking a knee. I'm guessthere was no indication from them that they wouldn't respond in kind. If i was any other coach in the NFL and I'm beating the Bucs with a few seconds left I would line up like victory formation and throw the ball to I think would be a wide open receiver. Everyone would call that bush league and I would agree except in this case since Schiano thinks you need to play til last second. I think that would teach him a lesson about sportsmanship. Best way to get hurt is when you're not prepared for the hit and that's exactly what happened. I'll bet the Bucs players are embarassed by their actions.

It is overwhelming in Schiano's favor on ESPN (with some few exceptions, i.e. Meril Hoge, Dilfer, Tom Jackson and Tim Hasselbeck) but that is to be expected by the "we hate the Giants" network lol.

joemorrisforprez
09-17-2012, 06:52 PM
The team that is ahead doesn't get to order the opposing team to stop trying to win. thats a load of crap.
They have every right to try to disrupt the play and try to create a fumble.

I think this is a good point.

The offense should be prepared for anything....especially since the Giants have something of a history in terms of last second losses.

Faded Blue
09-17-2012, 06:55 PM
Funny how the Buc's coach is claiming that he is teaching his players to play hard until the last whistle. Wasn't this the same coach who told his defense to lay down, not once but twice, for the last touchdown the Giants scored?

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 06:57 PM
Eli just stated that he told Tampa's defense he was taking the knee on that play.

zimonami
09-17-2012, 06:57 PM
I only disagree with the notion that they should warn the offense. Why should they? Its not their job. They made no secret of their intentions with the aggressive way they lined up. Quite honestly they should have reacted to this with better protection. If they had faked like they weren't going to play hard and then did, that would be different. But thats not what happened. They showed their hand early, and we didn't react properly to it
Thats on us. Its not their obligation to tell the offense that they were going to play hard.
LOL, Morehead.... I meant the coaches should alert their guys... not that the Defense should alert them... hahaha. But, I understand that you'd get it that way

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 06:57 PM
Eli just stated that he told Tampa's defense he was taking the knee on that play.

just heard that on Mike

zimonami
09-17-2012, 06:59 PM
Funny how the Buc's coach is claiming that he is teaching his players to play hard until the last whistle. Wasn't this the same coach who told his defense to lay down, not once but twice, for the last touchdown the Giants scored?
lmao... that's a great point. Hypocracy reigns, not just in our politicians

GameTime
09-17-2012, 07:00 PM
Eli just stated that he told Tampa's defense he was taking the knee on that play.
so what...
even more the reason they did what they did.....

that play, as BS as it may seem, depends on an element of surprise. Do you think the Buds would then say...."OK Eli thats cool but we are firing off anyway...".

Greg Schiano
09-17-2012, 07:11 PM
Funny how the Buc's coach is claiming that he is teaching his players to play hard until the last whistle. Wasn't this the same coach who told his defense to lay down, not once but twice, for the last touchdown the Giants scored?

It's a good strategy. If the Bucs don't stop the Giants, the Giants run the clock out and kick a game winning field goal. The better team won Sunday.

Red Dog
09-17-2012, 07:25 PM
The fuss over Greg Shiano's call on the last play to go after the ball in a very tight game with enough time on the clock for another play and a chance to score is what any competitive coach should do. The charge, going after our knees, etc.,when they came in low and high is just like a goal-line stand charge to stop the run, and as we all well remember, LT stripping the ball from Montana.I can understand the Giants and TC being upset, but you're in a football game and need to be aware that you can get hit, and will get hit, so don't let up, play alert. The NFL with ever-changing rules is turning intself into a "what am I allowed too do pansies league," and at least Schiano avoided the look of a pansy by doing something (legal)) to try and win. TC should have addressed it with him privately as he now comes across as crying because an opposing coach didn't send a notre over sayingwe're going after the ball. Play the game for 60 minutes, not 59 minutes and 20 seconds. Letting up on plays is when you can get hurt. Coaches shoud be crying about the officiating resulting in delayed calls, wrong guesses, too much time under the hood, and uncertainty, THOSE FILL-INS can cost a coach a game and if enough times possibly his job. :confused:

mrg3
09-17-2012, 07:28 PM
Tony Dungy and Ian Beckles both ex Bucs said it was Bush. The Joe P play was a hand off to Czonka which hit his hip. Think Schiano will be a good Coach for the Bucs though. Rookie Mistake. Lets move on to Carolina.

CowboysSuck
09-17-2012, 07:29 PM
There is like 3 threads currently discussing this, and IMO its a moot point. Football is a game of passion and emotion. TC got pissed, ok. I bet the media would get some good laughs if they saw what some fans do at home...not even at the game...staring at a TV

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 08:05 PM
LOL, Morehead.... I meant the coaches should alert their guys... not that the Defense should alert them... hahaha. But, I understand that you'd get it that wayOh..I'm sorry. I did have afew guys suggest that they should tell the offense they weren't lying down on the play.

OX1
09-17-2012, 08:17 PM
Anyone who thinks there will ever be a fumble if teams start game planning for this is crazy.
Are there rules about how far up the center's butt the QB can get??

If the center holds the top of the ball and it is pointing down, the QB is just about holding the bottom end of ball and
has his hands under/around it so he has no choice but to catch it. Now the QB has his knee in the grass, or so close
that no one but him can tell it is just a hair off the ground. QB gets the ball and his knee hits
before he is done saying whatever it is he says to get the snap.

Defensive line never even touches the offensive line, play is well over.

If you really start to game plan for this. You put all the receivers, running backs, tight ends,
surrounding the QB. If by some miracle this magic fumble happens in 2027, all your teammates
will be surrounding you just waiting for that fumble.

Couple more teams might try this dumb stunt until the entire league realizes
they are beating themselves up for something that will NEVER happen.

This play had it's best shot of EVER working yesterday and it wasn't even close.
Some new punk coach can try it again in 10 years or so.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 08:36 PM
Anyone who thinks there will ever be a fumble if teams start game planning for this is crazy.
Are there rules about how far up the center's butt the QB can get??

If the center holds the top of the ball and it is pointing down, the QB is just about holding the bottom end of ball and
has his hands under/around it so he has no choice but to catch it. Now the QB has his knee in the grass, or so close
that no one but him can tell it is just a hair off the ground. QB gets the ball and his knee hits
before he is done saying whatever it is he says to get the snap.

Defensive line never even touches the offensive line, play is well over.

If you really start to game plan for this. You put all the receivers, running backs, tight ends,
surrounding the QB. If by some miracle this magic fumble happens in 2027, all your teammates
will be surrounding you just waiting for that fumble.

Couple more teams might try this dumb stunt until the entire league realizes
they are beating themselves up for something that will NEVER happen.

This play had it's best shot of EVER working yesterday and it wasn't even close.
Some new punk coach can try it again in 10 years or so.
ever see a botched snap?????

giantsfan420
09-17-2012, 08:36 PM
MS have u heard any OL or QB's talk about it? before the kneel down, the qb and ol are telling the dl theyre kneeling it. from the players i heard, they said that usually the DL will let u know what theyre planning on doing either way. with TB, apparently the DL never indicated anything after the giants OL had been like "hey we're gonna kneel it. gl n good game." the OL and Eli were caught way off guard, which indicates to me, that TB wanted us to think itd be a typical kneel dwn s they could try and cause a TO...i dunno i get both aspects, but i also saw how eli and several OL fell. Hasselback made a good point, now OL will HAVE TO cut block TB's DL on kneel downs bc u have to defend it now, and then we'll see how TB likes it. conversely when they do the kneel down, their OL now better be on alert for cut blocks.

it wasnt a typical DL attack either, u had THREE dl line up directly over the C and then attack low...NOT cool and we r lucky no one got hurt

The Notorious B.I.G BLUE
09-17-2012, 08:47 PM
Fact is the Buc's were gonna let us walk into the endzone TWICE!! Where is the play to the end mentality in that???? So u dont wanna play d on the goaline...but u wanna play d on a qb knell?

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 08:53 PM
Fact is the Buc's were gonna let us walk into the endzone TWICE!! Where is the play to the end mentality in that???? So u dont wanna play d on the goaline...but u wanna play d on a qb knell?

the object of allowing the score is to keep time on the clock when it will still be a one score game

letting a team score is indeed a play to win...play to the end mentality

it is giving your offense a chance to get back on the field

jomo
09-17-2012, 09:07 PM
the object of allowing the score is to keep time on the clock when it will still be a one score game

letting a team score is indeed a play to win...play to the end mentality

it is giving your offense a chance to get back on the fieldThere has probably been too much made of this including by me lol. I guess the bottom line is you play to the level of your oponent. If you are going against a classy oponent (everyone but Schiano) everyone knows that the final play is a lay down. If you are playing Schiano, you have your OL fire out at their knees before they get to yours. QB touches his knee and we go home with a victory. Unfortunately, the other coach gets to set the rules of engagement. We need to prepare and act accordingly.

gfd_2
09-17-2012, 09:08 PM
On Monday Night Countdown they brought up an excellent point. 8 days ago, Panthers vs Bucs... Shiano had his team take a knee THREE TIMES! Shiano't team was leading 16 to 10 and he expected the Panthers to accept the fact the Bucs were taking a knee but it doesn't work the other way? That's crap.

Can anyone find a video of the 9/9/12 game? I'd love to have that shown to folks who agree with Shiano then hear what they have to say.

nhpgiantsfan
09-17-2012, 09:12 PM
On Monday Night Countdown they brought up an excellent point. 8 days ago, Panthers vs Bucs... Shiano had his team take a knee THREE TIMES! Shiano't team was leading 16 to 10 and he expected the Panthers to accept the fact the Bucs were taking a knee but it doesn't work the other way? That's crap.

Can anyone find a video of the 9/9/12 game? I'd love to have that shown to folks who agree with Shiano then hear what they have to say.

They also showed Schiano in he press conference saying that in 4 of the last 5 years at Rutgers they caused a fumle on that play. Now I don't follow Rutgers and I have no idea if that is true. But if it is true, can you blame him for trying it here.

zimonami
09-17-2012, 09:24 PM
They also showed Schiano in he press conference saying that in 4 of the last 5 years at Rutgers they caused a fumle on that play. Now I don't follow Rutgers and I have no idea if that is true. But if it is true, can you blame him for trying it here.
Burn me once, shame on you.
Burn me twice, shame on me.
All's fair in love and War.
Be prepared.
The OLine needs to be prepared next time the same situation occurs.
It's too bad we don't play them 2X this year.

gfd_2
09-17-2012, 09:30 PM
They also showed Schiano in he press conference saying that in 4 of the last 5 years at Rutgers they caused a fumle on that play. Now I don't follow Rutgers and I have no idea if that is true. But if it is true, can you blame him for trying it here.

http://www.onthebanks.com/2012/9/17/3349068/does-greg-schiano-have-a-history-of-jumping-victory-formations-its

SuperNYGiants
09-17-2012, 10:18 PM
Fact is the Buc's were gonna let us walk into the endzone TWICE!! Where is the play to the end mentality in that???? So u dont wanna play d on the goaline...but u wanna play d on a qb knell?
That's a great point, the chances of stopping the Giants from scoring a TD and forcing a field goal that could miss is still a much higher probability than that bush league stunt they have even bothered to pull.

If Schiano thinks it's worth going bush league, then he should consider freaking going for it on 4th and 1 at midfield first.

SackingMyths
09-17-2012, 10:25 PM
Some people's "logic" (if you want to call it that...) is mystifying.

Maybe TC should've just sucker-punched Schiano when he extended his hand to shake it. Why not? Apparently being a fake tough guy is cool, right? And hey...nobody else has ever sucker punched someone at midfield when they weren't expecting it, so by definition, it MUST be an act of genius.

How people -- without fail -- can find a counter argument to any act ever committed in this world is just puzzling.

nhpgiantsfan
09-17-2012, 10:31 PM
Some people's "logic" (if you want to call it that...) is mystifying.

Maybe TC should've just sucker-punched Schiano when he extended his hand to shake it. Why not? Apparently being a fake tough guy is cool, right? And hey...nobody else has ever sucker punched someone at midfield when they weren't expecting it, so by definition, it MUST be an act of genius.

How people -- without fail -- can find a counter argument to any act ever committed in this world is just puzzling.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about. What he did is within the rules of the game. It may not customary, but they did nothing illegal. How are you going to compare it to punching someone.

SackingMyths
09-17-2012, 10:41 PM
Dude, what the hell are you talking about. What he did is within the rules of the game. It may not customary, but they did nothing illegal. How are you going to compare it to punching someone.

If you can't draw the obvious parallel then I won't bother spelling it out for you. It's quite clear.

fansince69
09-17-2012, 10:43 PM
If you can't draw the obvious parallel then I won't bother spelling it out for you. It's quite clear.

can you spell it out for me? Because I guess I am missing the quite clear also

Morehead State
09-17-2012, 10:49 PM
MS have u heard any OL or QB's talk about it? before the kneel down, the qb and ol are telling the dl theyre kneeling it. from the players i heard, they said that usually the DL will let u know what theyre planning on doing either way. with TB, apparently the DL never indicated anything after the giants OL had been like "hey we're gonna kneel it. gl n good game." the OL and Eli were caught way off guard, which indicates to me, that TB wanted us to think itd be a typical kneel dwn s they could try and cause a TO...i dunno i get both aspects, but i also saw how eli and several OL fell. Hasselback made a good point, now OL will HAVE TO cut block TB's DL on kneel downs bc u have to defend it now, and then we'll see how TB likes it. conversely when they do the kneel down, their OL now better be on alert for cut blocks.

it wasnt a typical DL attack either, u had THREE dl line up directly over the C and then attack low...NOT cool and we r lucky no one got hurt

Once they lined up it was clear to everyone in the building that they were going to try to make a play on the ball. If you don't agree you are living in absolute denial.

SackingMyths
09-17-2012, 10:49 PM
People who are lauding Schiano's tough mindset and taking advantage of the element of surprise don't realize how flawed that thought process is. So, I likened it to sucker punching someone -- a b*tch move that ironically isn't tough at all. If you were tough, you'd punch someone when they knew it was coming and could defend themselves.

When Olineman are telling you, "Hey, we're kneeling down here" and you nod and pretend it's all good. Then, the O-Line lowers their guard only for you to go at their lower extremities...it's a b*tch move. Like a sucker punch at midfield.

That wasn't so confusing, was it??