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View Full Version : After further thought, I'm siding with Schiano on the last play.



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Abby Manning
09-17-2012, 09:49 PM
Eli could have gotten seriously injured because of those neanderthals, they're lucky he wasn't. He's an emotional wreck over it.

Husky
09-17-2012, 09:49 PM
They have the "Victory formation" to built a tight cocoon around the QB to protect him.
TB proved yesterday that you can knock a QB down and possibly cause a fumble. After all the "false outrage" in the league, I hope someone (especially us) takes notes the next time Drew Brees or Tony Romo try to take a knee after they have "informed" us that we lost.
Again, Have you ever heard of it happening since?

Bing Crosby
09-17-2012, 09:53 PM
Once they lined up it was clear to everyone in the building that they were going to try to make a play on the ball. If you don't agree you are living in absolute denial.

LOL. It was so obvious that it caught the Superbowl MVP and his O-line off guard. You are an arrogant little man aren't you?

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 10:04 PM
People who are lauding Schiano's tough mindset and taking advantage of the element of surprise don't realize how flawed that thought process is. So, I likened it to sucker punching someone -- a b*tch move that ironically isn't tough at all. If you were tough, you'd punch someone when they knew it was coming and could defend themselves.

When Olineman are telling you, "Hey, we're kneeling down here" and you nod and pretend it's all good. Then, the O-Line lowers their guard only for you to go at their lower extremities...it's a b*tch move. Like a sucker punch at midfield.

That wasn't so confusing, was it??

Well said.

nhpgiantsfan
09-17-2012, 10:09 PM
People who are lauding Schiano's tough mindset and taking advantage of the element of surprise don't realize how flawed that thought process is. So, I likened it to sucker punching someone -- a b*tch move that ironically isn't tough at all. If you were tough, you'd punch someone when they knew it was coming and could defend themselves.

When Olineman are telling you, "Hey, we're kneeling down here" and you nod and pretend it's all good. Then, the O-Line lowers their guard only for you to go at their lower extremities...it's a b*tch move. Like a sucker punch at midfield.

That wasn't so confusing, was it??

I am in no way lauding his toughness, just saying he is well within his rights to try it. Nothing more, nothing less. I am certainly not gonna sit around and cry about them pushing a few guys over on the last play.

Who cares. We won. On to Carolina. Get over it people!!

Bing Crosby
09-17-2012, 10:16 PM
People who are lauding Schiano's tough mindset and taking advantage of the element of surprise don't realize how flawed that thought process is. So, I likened it to sucker punching someone -- a b*tch move that ironically isn't tough at all. If you were tough, you'd punch someone when they knew it was coming and could defend themselves.

When Olineman are telling you, "Hey, we're kneeling down here" and you nod and pretend it's all good. Then, the O-Line lowers their guard only for you to go at their lower extremities...it's a b*tch move. Like a sucker punch at midfield.

That wasn't so confusing, was it??

+1

You just don't understand how BRILLIANT Greg "68-67" Schiano is! Move over Vince Lombardi! Take your hat of in his presence Tom Landry! Bow before your superior Paul Brown! 68-67 ordered an amazing play that defeated a PANSY *** MOVE like the kneel! Everyone knows that the kneel is only manly if your up by 6 playing the Panthers, and have to kneel three times before the end of the game, like Schiano did during week one against the Panthers. Then your tough, then your old school. But doing it when your up by 7 with 5 seconds left on the clock... pssh *******. It's to bad Eli didn't get hurt, he deserved to be after pulling a PANSY *** move like the victory kneel and then telling the defense about it. What a *****.

I can't wait to get my Greg Schiano t-shirt! I hope he has a knife in his teeth holding the lifeless corpse of Coughlin in one hand and Eli in the other with the words "Kneeling is for Pansies" written in Smurf blood on the bottom. What a coach! What a tactician! WHAT A MAN!

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 10:17 PM
I am in no way lauding his toughness, just saying he is well within his rights to try it. Nothing more, nothing less. I am certainly not gonna sit around and cry about them pushing a few guys over on the last play.

Who cares. We won. On to Carolina. Get over it people!!

Why give your position only to say "who cares?"

We told 'em we were taking a knee. They took free shots at our guys. That's bush.

On to Carolina.

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 11:23 PM
Some people's "logic" (if you want to call it that...) is mystifying.

Maybe TC should've just sucker-punched Schiano when he extended his hand to shake it. Why not? Apparently being a fake tough guy is cool, right? And hey...nobody else has ever sucker punched someone at midfield when they weren't expecting it, so by definition, it MUST be an act of genius.

How people -- without fail -- can find a counter argument to any act ever committed in this world is just puzzling.

the leagues logic must also mystify you then

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/17/nfl-sides-with-buccaneers-on-kneel-down-controversy/

ShakeandBake
09-17-2012, 11:33 PM
Next time we should just run up the score on these bums

OX1
09-18-2012, 12:21 AM
ever see a botched snap?????

Not during a defended kneeldown, and you never will............

zimonami
09-18-2012, 12:35 AM
Not during a defended kneeldown, and you never will............
But I did see a QB take the last snap of the game and try to hand off to a fullback who was just going to run safely into the defenders for the last play.
It didn't work out as planned.
Thus, since 1978, the chicken kneel.

BlueSanta
09-18-2012, 12:35 AM
either way, no mater which side you are on this argument, TCs players will LOVE him for this.

A coach who actually cares for the safety of his players and is willing to go to bat with another coach over it........that is a coach I would want to play for.

gmen46
09-18-2012, 12:42 AM
either way, no mater which side you are on this argument, TCs players will LOVE him for this.

A coach who actually cares for the safety of his players and is willing to go to bat with another coach over it........that is a coach I would want to play for.

Very good point that seems to have been overlooked in all the kerfuffle that I've heard over this.

oldsmobile
09-18-2012, 12:45 AM
How many saw last weeks Tampa game on ESPN Tonite ? At the end of their game took the "KNEE" 3 times to finish game .
OLD SAYING " What goes around comes around ". Beware Tampa players YOUR Time is COMING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zimonami
09-18-2012, 01:13 AM
But, it won't be from us anytime soon. Next time we play them this will be forgotten.
But, we might see a few interesting scenarios at the end of some games in weeks to come... especially games involving TB.
Does everyone just rrevert to the accepted, final 'kneel', with no resistance?

giant-4-life
09-18-2012, 01:55 AM
Funny how the Buc's coach is claiming that he is teaching his players to play hard until the last whistle. Wasn't this the same coach who told his defense to lay down, not once but twice, for the last touchdown the Giants scored?

YES! They let us score that TD. just like the Patriots did in the last SB.

JuneauBlue
09-18-2012, 02:00 AM
Let's just do away with the Victory formation; it's obviously for wussies not tough enough to be real football players. While we're at it, let's get rid of the QB slide, as it takes away the defense's opportunity to cause turnovers, or, better yet, injury. Out with the "defenseless receiver" rule--hey, you wanna play, you gotta pay, right? Fair catch? Pffffft...this ain't baseball. No more coddling, for God's sake! Remember the words of the great master Seinfeld, who once said "We're trying to have a civilization here..." Yes, even in Pro Football..I can't believe people here who are defending this infantile move that is, yes, merely legal and nothing else. Do you have to get rid of every rule and protection just to learn it's value all over again?

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 02:41 AM
Once they lined up it was clear to everyone in the building that they were going to try to make a play on the ball. If you don't agree you are living in absolute denial.
not true at all. every kneel down i've seen, and remember its a funky offensive formation, the dl doesnt even initiate contact with the ol. like the mnf game the last snap, the dl just stands up and gets ready to shake hands. the tb dl did engage tho, and went low which is very dangerous. the going low at the knees part is why the OL and eli are so mad...

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 02:43 AM
put it this way, had tb done it to NE or GB, what do u think the league reaction would be and what would urs be? any different maybe?

BlueSanta
09-18-2012, 03:52 AM
Very good point that seems to have been overlooked in all the kerfuffle that I've heard over this.

Using the word "kerfuffle" should instantly vault you into a moderator imho.

RichGiants81
09-18-2012, 07:20 AM
Let's just do away with the Victory formation; it's obviously for wussies not tough enough to be real football players. While we're at it, let's get rid of the QB slide, as it takes away the defense's opportunity to cause turnovers, or, better yet, injury. Out with the "defenseless receiver" rule--hey, you wanna play, you gotta pay, right? Fair catch? Pffffft...this ain't baseball. No more coddling, for God's sake! Remember the words of the great master Seinfeld, who once said "We're trying to have a civilization here..." Yes, even in Pro Football..I can't believe people here who are defending this infantile move that is, yes, merely legal and nothing else. Do you have to get rid of every rule and protection just to learn it's value all over again?

Lame point, the rules are in place for very good reasons. I guess you haven't heard or read much about all the old school players that are now suffering from brain damage as a result of the big hits they took. I love big hits as much as the next guy but the stuff you're talking about is nonsense

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 08:31 AM
not true at all. every kneel down i've seen, and remember its a funky offensive formation, the dl doesnt even initiate contact with the ol. like the mnf game the last snap, the dl just stands up and gets ready to shake hands. the tb dl did engage tho, and went low which is very dangerous. the going low at the knees part is why the OL and eli are so mad...
You're joking ....right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2kCaqbVtpU

miked1958
09-18-2012, 08:51 AM
They had a Poll on this they showed at halftime of last nights Denver Atlanta game. At the time the people voting sided with TC a little over 60% and with the Tampa coach just under 40%. They were going to update it towards the end of the 4th quarter but i didnt see how it turned out. I think at the half about 175000 peopld had voted so far

bluesince86
09-18-2012, 09:54 AM
I just think the entire play was bush league. If there were 40 seconds left in the game I would understand the play to a point, but with 5 seconds left they werent going to tie it up.

One of the problems I have with Schiano's comments though is when he said thats how they played in college and he is coaching his team to play until the game is over, until the last whistle is blown (or something to that effect). In the Bucs week 1 game they took 3 kneel downs to run the clock out, thats hardly playing hard until the last whistle is blown and Im sure he wasnt expecting the opposing team to rush the QB in that situation.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 09:55 AM
I just think the entire play was bush league. If there were 40 seconds left in the game I would understand the play to a point, but with 5 seconds left they werent going to tie it up.

One of the problems I have with Schiano's comments though is when he said thats how they played in college and he is coaching his team to play until the game is over, until the last whistle is blown (or something to that effect). In the Bucs week 1 game they took 3 kneel downs to run the clock out, thats hardly playing hard until the last whistle is blown and Im sure he wasnt expecting the opposing team to rush the QB in that situation.
So if the other team doesn't quit when we say they should, our HC is supposed to call them out?
Nonsense!

bluesince86
09-18-2012, 10:00 AM
So if the other team doesn't quit when we say they should, our HC is supposed to call them out?
Nonsense!

I never said that, but the fact that Schiano is trying to claim that he wasnt aware of "unwritten rules" and thats just how they play is ridiculous and not supported by his limited sample size of games that he coached at this level

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 10:14 AM
I never said that, but the fact that Schiano is trying to claim that he wasnt aware of "unwritten rules" and thats just how they play is ridiculous and not supported by his limited sample size of games that he coached at this level
"Trying to win a football game" trumps" unwritten rules".
And whining about it from TC was unseemly to me. They played hard on the last play. We didn't. I guess they were supposed to know that they needed to quit trying when we told them we were taking a knee.
Well guess what.....When Tony Romo informed us with 2:00 to go last week that we were to quit trying, we should have said..."Go %&$@ Yourself!"
Instead we did what Tony required us to do and gave him three unchallenged kneel downs.
I hate that friggin ****.

bluesince86
09-18-2012, 10:27 AM
"Trying to win a football game" trumps" unwritten rules".
And whining about it from TC was unseemly to me. They played hard on the last play. We didn't. I guess they were supposed to know that they needed to quit trying when we told them we were taking a knee.
Well guess what.....When Tony Romo informed us with 2:00 to go last week that we were to quit trying, we should have said..."Go %&$@ Yourself!"
Instead we did what Tony required us to do and gave him three unchallenged kneel downs.
I hate that friggin ****.

Dude, all Im saying is that I dont buy into Schianos explanation. What about week 1 when TB took 3 kneel downs, is that playing hard until the end of the game? Did he expect Carolina to rush Freeman? Its not against the rules to do that, and I dont believe that there should be any penalties against TB, but it still was bush league. When was the last time you ever saw that happen in an NFL game? Schiano knew that the Giants werent expecting that and that is exactly why they did it, hoping to get a turn over. The thing is, even if there was a turnover, with the time left on the clock its unlikely that anything would come from it. At no point, have I said that TB had to stop trying, but that doesnt change the fact that it was a bush league move

NYKiller
09-18-2012, 10:30 AM
Coughlin was right. He doesn't want to see David Carr starting anytime soon LOL.

Ruttiger711
09-18-2012, 10:37 AM
Holy Mackerel- 53 pages!?? I know some threads were merged here (good job mods)

Morehead - your stance on the kneel down is clear, but do you believe for a second that Schiano "had no idea that this is how it's done in the NFL".

Makes him come off real slimy IMO since its an obvious lie.

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 10:43 AM
put it this way, had tb done it to NE or GB, what do u think the league reaction would be and what would urs be? any different maybe?

Are you trying to say that the NFL's interpretation of the rules would be different if it was the Pats or Packers. That is utter nonsense. There was time on the clock, the play was legal. Stop acting like the Giants are the whipping boys of the NFL. Mara is one of the most important owners in the NFL. You think the league offices would treat other teams better than the Giants. Stop it!

I guess all you people think that it should just be treated like a gimmie putt, in a friendly game of golf, when you just pick the ball up because everyone knows you would of made the putt anyway.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 10:45 AM
Are you trying to say that the NFL's interpretation of the rules would be different if it was the Pats or Packers. That is utter nonsense. There was time on the clock, the play was legal. Stop acting like the Giants are the whipping boys of the NFL. Mara is one of the most important owners in the NFL. You think the league offices would treat other teams better than the Giants. Stop it!

I guess all you people think that it should just be treated like a gimmie putt, in a friendly game of golf, when you just pick the ball up because everyone knows you would of made the putt anyway.
I dont neccessarily agree with what Schiano did but I agree with your response.....

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 10:56 AM
Dude, all Im saying is that I dont buy into Schianos explanation. What about week 1 when TB took 3 kneel downs, is that playing hard until the end of the game? Did he expect Carolina to rush Freeman? Its not against the rules to do that, and I dont believe that there should be any penalties against TB, but it still was bush league. When was the last time you ever saw that happen in an NFL game? Schiano knew that the Giants werent expecting that and that is exactly why they did it, hoping to get a turn over. The thing is, even if there was a turnover, with the time left on the clock its unlikely that anything would come from it. At no point, have I said that TB had to stop trying, but that doesnt change the fact that it was a bush league move

Who cares what the TB coach does or says?
I care what our guys do. I thought the whining by TC was embarrassing. We are complaining that they actually played hard after we told them to quit?
We got caught with our pants down, got Eli knocked on his ***, and the false outrage was just an attempt to cover that sad fact up.
I love TC, but in my view it wasn't his best moment.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 10:59 AM
Holy Mackerel- 53 pages!?? I know some threads were merged here (good job mods)

Morehead - your stance on the kneel down is clear, but do you believe for a second that Schiano "had no idea that this is how it's done in the NFL".

Makes him come off real slimy IMO since its an obvious lie.
No I don't. I think he didn't give a **** "how its done" in the NFL. I think he asked his team to play hard no matter what the etiquette was. And I'm fine with that.
I say that I like a coach who does that. This is friggin football.

nygfanmaybe
09-18-2012, 11:06 AM
I think they should put a rule in that says you can call the other team off if the score is more than 8 pts., the team ahead has the ball, 1st down, and there is less than 105 secs. left in the game. However, if that scenario doesn't exist, buckle your chin strap.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:10 AM
I think they should put a rule in that says you can call the other team off if the score is more than 8 pts., the team ahead has the ball, 1st down, and there is less than 105 secs. left in the game. However, if that scenario doesn't exist, buckle your chin strap.
You can't be serious.
Let just have a mercy rule. If your up by 30 points in the 4th quarter you can give the fans back their money and go home.

No rules about when you can or can't play hard! This entire conversation is making my skin crawl. Maybe I'm old school but it seems some posters here are friggin soft.
Play The Game!!!

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 11:12 AM
If you're ahead by more than 3 touchdowns in the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter, you should play a man short.

nygfanmaybe
09-18-2012, 11:15 AM
You can't be serious.
Let just have a mercy rule. If your up by 30 points in the 4th quarter you can give the fans back their money and go home.

No rules about when you can or can't play hard! This entire conversation is making my skin crawl. Maybe I'm old school but it seems some posters here are friggin soft.
Play The Game!!!

You have to use a little common sense, though. There is a time when playing hard is logical, and then there is a time when it is not, and safety is a concern...so, IMO, I wouldn't be against a "surrender" rule as long as it was not outrageous. Sometimes you just have to accept defeat in lieu of doing something idiotic.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:16 AM
If you're ahead by more than 3 touchdowns in the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter, you should play a man short.
Completely stupid comment! You should just play with 20 LB. weights on your legs!

bluesince86
09-18-2012, 11:17 AM
Who cares what the TB coach does or says?
I care what our guys do. I thought the whining by TC was embarrassing. We are complaining that they actually played hard after we told them to quit?
We got caught with our pants down, got Eli knocked on his ***, and the false outrage was just an attempt to cover that sad fact up.
I love TC, but in my view it wasn't his best moment.

I dont necessarily care what he does or says, but he did make a statement that isnt supported by facts available. For him to say he wasnt aware of the "unwritten rule" is complete bs, he didnt care about the unwritten rule and thats fine, he didnt break any official rules. But as a previous post stated his explination just made him look slimy. I personally dont like the play, you seem to not have a problem with it and thats fine, just 2 differing opinions

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:17 AM
You have to use a little common sense, though. There is a time when playing hard is logical, and then there is a time when it is not, and safety is a concern...so, IMO, I wouldn't be against a "surrender" rule as long as it was not outrageous. Sometimes you just have to accept defeat in lieu of doing something idiotic.
The best way to get hurt is to NOT play hard.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 11:17 AM
You can't be serious.
Let just have a mercy rule. If your up by 30 points in the 4th quarter you can give the fans back their money and go home.

No rules about when you can or can't play hard! This entire conversation is making my skin crawl. Maybe I'm old school but it seems some posters here are friggin soft.
Play The Game!!!

I don't think opposing the attacking of the victory kneel = being soft. When an offense is prepared for it (everyone will be now), the chances of the D actually performing the task will be slim to none. It surely would be a fantastic highlight to see once every 3 or 4 years it happens but at the cost of how many linemen's legs?

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:18 AM
I dont necessarily care what he does or says, but he did make a statement that isnt supported by facts available. For him to say he wasnt aware of the "unwritten rule" is complete bs, he didnt care about the unwritten rule and thats fine, he didnt break any official rules. But as a previous post stated his explination just made him look slimy. I personally dont like the play, you seem to not have a problem with it and thats fine, just 2 differing opinions
If they had pretended like they were not going all out and then did, I would have a problem with it. Since they made it clear as they lined up that they were, I have NO problem with it.

nygfanmaybe
09-18-2012, 11:19 AM
The best way to get hurt is to NOT play hard.

Nobody is going to get hurt if the rule is in place, understood by all, and enforced with harsh penalties if broken. JMO, though.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:20 AM
I don't think opposing the attacking of the victory kneel = being soft. When an offense is prepared for it (everyone will be now), the chances of the D actually performing the task will be slim to none. It surely would be a fantastic highlight to see once every 3 or 4 years it happens but at the cost of how many linemen's legs?
D linemen go low all the time. they do it especially on the goal line. Its perfectly legal and acceptable. Its taught in Pee Wee leagues on up.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:22 AM
Nobody is going to get hurt if the rule is in place, understood by all, and enforced with harsh penalties if broken. JMO, though.
Come on! Are you really advocating rules about when a team can or can't try hard? What the hell is this world coming to?

Lets give out little trophies to the losers after every game too.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 11:22 AM
D linemen go low all the time. they do it especially on the goal line. Its perfectly legal and acceptable. Its taught in Pee Wee leagues on up.

Ok? That still doesn't address the amount of times a botched snap actually occurs versus a successful kneel down. The sheer mathematical proof is all that needs to be said for why you rarely see defenses attack it. It's pretty much downright futile.

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 11:24 AM
The best way to get hurt is to NOT play hard.

That's the thing, really, watching the replay, you can see Baas snap the ball and sort of stand up. That's why the defender hit him in the knees (and knocked him back into Eli). If he had stayed low and defended himself, he would have been OK. The problem I have is that it seems like every other time I've ever seen this play, both the offense and defense just go through the motions. Is it an unwritten rule? Is it an unspoken agreement?. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because the first thing you are taught in any contact sport is to protect yourself at all times. I would imagine that there will be 31 teams in the leage this week that will be taking this play more seriously, at least on the offensive side of the ball.

nygfanmaybe
09-18-2012, 11:24 AM
D linemen go low all the time. they do it especially on the goal line. Its perfectly legal and acceptable. Its taught in Pee Wee leagues on up.
There was a time while playing in JuCo that I, a DB, had to go against the best lineman on the team as punishment for breaking curfew and the smoking and drinking rules. I had never done it, but had watched a lot. We were in the "chutes" and anyone who has played football should know what I am talking about. Anyway, I knew that at the whistle I had to beat him to the ground...and did. Once below him, all I had to do was lift-up and push him out. Lineman coach was pissed, as he was the one administering the punishment, and made us go again. Same thing happened. It was one of my best practices ever.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:24 AM
Ok? That still doesn't address the amount of times a botched snap actually occurs versus a successful kneel down. The sheer mathematical proof is all that needs to be said for why you rarely see defenses attack it. It's pretty much downright futile.
So now your position is....."Hey guys..why are you trying...we told you that you had no chance!"
Each team can decide for themselves when to accept defeat. Its not up to us, the league, or especially the opposing team.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:26 AM
That's the thing, really, watching the replay, you can see Baas snap the ball and sort of stand up. That's why the defender hit him in the knees (and knocked him back into Eli). If he had stayed low and defended himself, he would have been OK. The problem I have is that it seems like every other time I've ever seen this play, both the offense and defense just go through the motions. Is it an unwritten rule? Is it an unspoken agreement?. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because the first thing you are taught in any contact sport is to protect yourself at all times. I would imagine that there will be 31 teams in the leage this week that will be taking this play more seriously, at least on the offensive side of the ball.
I completely agree. We were lax and they weren't. We looked bad and TC's false outrage was cover for that.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 11:28 AM
Are you trying to say that the NFL's interpretation of the rules would be different if it was the Pats or Packers. That is utter nonsense. There was time on the clock, the play was legal. Stop acting like the Giants are the whipping boys of the NFL. Mara is one of the most important owners in the NFL. You think the league offices would treat other teams better than the Giants. Stop it!

I guess all you people think that it should just be treated like a gimmie putt, in a friendly game of golf, when you just pick the ball up because everyone knows you would of made the putt anyway.

This isn't about the Giants to 420, this is all about the messiah getting no respect.

http://imageshack.us/a/img521/6568/rodneyh.jpg

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 11:29 AM
So now your position is....."Hey guys..why are you trying...we told you that you had no chance!"
Each team can decide for themselves when to accept defeat. Its not up to us, the league, or especially the opposing team.

How many times have defenses recovered the ball when the offense uses the victory kneel?

If Schiano wants to continue this tactic, he can also accept the potential repercussions of what this can cause. I'd rather not fight for the ball in such a scenario than put a target on my defensive linemen's backs in future games.

The Notorious B.I.G BLUE
09-18-2012, 11:31 AM
the object of allowing the score is to keep time on the clock when it will still be a one score game

letting a team score is indeed a play to win...play to the end mentality

it is giving your offense a chance to get back on the field
I understand the object of letting us score. I don't need an education in football breh.

IM saying if people are making the excuse that anything could happen with 5 sec's left in the game during a QB kneel...then that same logic applies to us trying to score. I actually think the chance of u getting the ball back are greater if u try to stop a run (botched handoff, fumble), anything could happen during a FG attempt (botched snap, blocked kick, missed kicks (ie: NE v Arizona))

**** the week b4 the Buc's took 3 QB kneels to ice the game. Nobody pulled that BS on them! If Eli gets hurt or Bass gets hurt bc u tired to undercut his legs then what??

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:32 AM
How many times have defenses recovered the ball when the offense uses the victory kneel?

If Schiano wants to continue this tactic, he can also accept the potential repercussions of what this can cause. I'd rather not fight for the ball in such a scenario than put a target on my defensive linemen's backs in future games.
OMG!! The friggin modern world sucks.
Right...Don't make them mad at us! ............. Nonsense!
This is football for God's sake.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 11:32 AM
I completely agree. We were lax and they weren't. We looked bad and TC's false outrage was cover for that.
we didnt necessarily look bad MS. The Giants and TC expected the norm and they didnt get it. It was an out of the ordinary play for the D to do what they did and the Giants didnt prep for that. Its not gross misconduct on either part. TC reacted in a normal fashion given the circumstance. I think most coaches would have as well.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:38 AM
we didnt necessarily look bad MS. The Giants and TC expected the norm and they didnt get it. It was an out of the ordinary play for the D to do what they did and the Giants didnt prep for that. Its not gross misconduct on either part. TC reacted in a normal fashion given the circumstance. I think most coaches would have as well.
They got Eli knocked on his *** on a kneel down play. And did because they weren't ready to play on that play. I think thats bad.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 11:39 AM
OMG!! The friggin modern world sucks.
Right...Don't make them mad at us! ............. Nonsense!
This is football for God's sake.

Football also now involves penalties just for a slight brush of the hand on a QBs helmet, kickoffs moved back for the sole reason of preventing injuries, and neutering secondaries from stopping wide receivers. The victory kneel is the smallest thing to complain about. In a league that has a hard on for player safety, it would be hypocritical for NFL officials to show strong support for what Schiano did. You just have to move on and accept what once was is no longer.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:43 AM
Football also now involves penalties just for a slight brush of the hand on a QBs helmet, kickoffs moved back for the sole reason of preventing injuries, and neutering secondaries from stopping wide receivers. The victory kneel is the smallest thing to complain about. In a league that has a hard on for player safety, it would be hypocritical for NFL officials to show strong support for what Schiano did. You just have to move on and accept what once was is no longer.
The advocates for player safety have never mentioned that teams should stop trying. Thats the best way to get hurt.

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 11:43 AM
Football also now involves penalties just for a slight brush of the hand on a QBs helmet, kickoffs moved back for the sole reason of preventing injuries, and neutering secondaries from stopping wide receivers. The victory kneel is the smallest thing to complain about. In a league that has a hard on for player safety, it would be hypocritical for NFL officials to show strong support for what Schiano did. You just have to move on and accept what once was is no longer.

I agree for the most part. However, the one distinction between the Victory Kneel and all of those other things is that there are actual rules against doing them, whereas there is no rule that says you can't use your goal-line defense on a Victory Kneel.

wuzpapn
09-18-2012, 11:51 AM
Morehead you really don't have a point. This is the NFL not Rutgers anymore. These are people's careers on the line. Diving at their knees to try and force something that's not going to happen is bush league, and not needed. Schiano is a tool, and I hope more teams do **** back to the Bucs this season.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 11:56 AM
Morehead you really don't have a point. This is the NFL not Rutgers anymore. These are people's careers on the line. Diving at their knees to try and force something that's not going to happen is bush league, and not needed. Schiano is a tool, and I hope more teams do **** back to the Bucs this season.
I don't give a **** about the Tampa coach and I certainly don't give a **** about Rutgers football.
I do care about our team whining on a play where we were NOT ready after they mad it clear they were coming hard on the play.

giantsforce
09-18-2012, 11:58 AM
I completely agree. We were lax and they weren't. We looked bad and TC's false outrage was cover for that.That is a bunch of bull. Did you watch Monday night's game? Denver was in the same position as the Bucks. A TD would have won the game. Atlanta took the victory position, Ryan took a knee and no one even made an attempt even to touch him. Why is that? Class and respect for your opponent. But then again I wouldn't even try to compare Schiano to John Fox.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 11:58 AM
The advocates for player safety have never mentioned that teams should stop trying. Thats the best way to get hurt.

The risk of injury increased because of the Bucs attempt of trying to win the game by recovering the ball against the victory kneel. Had the Giants known what was about to happen (Can you really blame them that much since it rarely ever occurs?), they would of "tried" to stop the Bucs and the risk of injury would of decreased. I wouldn't be so against what Schiano did had he mentioned doing something like this to Coughlin before the game. It just reeks of desperation otherwise imo.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 12:00 PM
I agree for the most part. However, the one distinction between the Victory Kneel and all of those other things is that there are actual rules against doing them, whereas there is no rule that says you can't use your goal-line defense on a Victory Kneel.

True enough. I just think the impact of a scenario where all 32 teams would start to attack the victory kneel would have a minimal impact on football games with the exception of injuries. The things I mentioned greatly affect most snaps in a football game. I can respect where MS is coming from but I just don't think much would come out of it.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 12:04 PM
That is a bunch of bull. Did you watch Monday night's game? Denver was in the same position as the Bucks. A TD would have won the game. Atlanta took the victory position, Ryan took a knee and no one even made an attempt even to touch him. Why is that? Class and respect for your opponent. But then again I wouldn't even try to compare Schiano to John Fox.
So quitting early demonstrates respect for your opponent?
No sir. Playing hard for 60 minutes and then shaking their hand and appreciating their effort is respect for your opponents.
Other teams can stand around and let them take a knee unchallenged if they want. But thats not respect for your opponent. Its just admitting defeat.

I like it when my team "admits defeat" kicking and screaming.

burier
09-18-2012, 12:10 PM
I took my time to form my opinion and the fact is that was dirty bush-league move by the Bucks period.

When a team goes into the victory formation then there is an understanding that the game is over. We have won and you have lost. Firing out on that play is like breaking a gentleman's agreement. Especially considering that the Giants could have easily put another TD on the board but instead followed the unwritten rules of sportsmanship and let the clock run.

Tampa Bay behaved like that Villain who fights the hero at the end of the movie and ends up falling over a cliff only to be saved by the hero. But As the hero is trying to pull the villain up to save his life the villain makes one last attempt at killing the hero.

Imagine of the Giants had fumbled and Tampa went on to win the game. It would have been the cheapest win in NFL history.

giantsforce
09-18-2012, 12:10 PM
So quitting early demonstrates respect for your opponent?
No sir. Playing hard for 60 minutes and then shaking their hand and appreciating their effort is respect for your opponents.
Other teams can stand around and let them take a knee unchallenged if they want. But thats not respect for your opponent. Its just admitting defeat.

I like it when my team "admits defeat" kicking and screaming.Well, sometimes you have to admit defeat and live to fight another day rather than to risk injury in hope of avoiding the inevitable. In the war you have to know when you lost a battle and cut your losses and live to fight again before you get wiped out and you have nothing to fight with. Same in sports, all the kicking and screaming when you have a snowball's chance in hell is not going to make any difference. It just makes you look bad.

dezzzR
09-18-2012, 12:12 PM
So quitting early demonstrates respect for your opponent?
No sir. Playing hard for 60 minutes and then shaking their hand and appreciating their effort is respect for your opponents.
Other teams can stand around and let them take a knee unchallenged if they want. But thats not respect for your opponent. Its just admitting defeat.

I like it when my team "admits defeat" kicking and screaming.Its not quitting. Its a mutual understanding;)

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 12:16 PM
True enough. I just think the impact of a scenario where all 32 teams would start to attack the victory kneel would have a minimal impact on football games with the exception of injuries. The things I mentioned greatly affect most snaps in a football game. I can respect where MS is coming from but I just don't think much would come out of it.

It would have the same risk of injury as any other play if both sides were prepared. But that said, the potential for injury would still greatly outweigh the potential for success.

burier
09-18-2012, 12:16 PM
So quitting early demonstrates respect for your opponent?
No sir. Playing hard for 60 minutes and then shaking their hand and appreciating their effort is respect for your opponents.
Other teams can stand around and let them take a knee unchallenged if they want. But thats not respect for your opponent. Its just admitting defeat.

I like it when my team "admits defeat" kicking and screaming.

I'd rather my team kick and scream when the game is still in the balance.

You're not gonna get a brownie points from me when you suddenly show fire just because the other team is showing you mercy after you allowed them to go up and down the field on you all day.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 12:21 PM
They got Eli knocked on his *** on a kneel down play. And did because they weren't ready to play on that play. I think thats bad.
Dude...... I have been supporting your(not that you need or asked for it) veiw from the aspect of its a leagal play and Schiano was not wrong but come on. Do you think any O would have been ready for that?? I say no way. Any other QB in that situation woudl have gotten knocked on his *** too. Why is it such a big deal they were caught off gaurd. . Like any other play.....if you are not ready you get beat.

burier
09-18-2012, 12:27 PM
Dude...... I have been supporting your(not that you need or asked for it) veiw from the aspect of its a leagal play and Schiano was not wrong but come on. Do you think any O would have been ready for that?? I say no way. Any other QB in that situation woudl have gotten knocked on his *** too. Why is it such a big deal they were caught off gaurd. . Like any other play.....if you are not ready you get beat.

To take a step further; This would have never happened if it was one of the other elite Qbs in the league. You think TB would have pulled that on Brady or Rogers or Brees or Peyton?? Highly doubt it.

TB showed disrespect for the NFL, The Giants and Eli Manning.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 12:28 PM
To take a step further; This would have never happened if it was one of the other elite Qbs in the league. You think TB would have pulled that on Brady or Rogers or Brees or Peyton?? Highly doubt it.

TB showed disrespect for the NFL, The Giants and Eli Manning.
yes I think Schiano would have dont it regardless of the team i nthe same scenario. I do not think he did it because it was Eli, TC, or the Giants.
Why do think he has less respect for TC and the Gmen???

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 12:32 PM
I don't think Schiano did any of this intending to disrespect the NFL or to deliberately injure other players but I don't think he took the proper time to calculate his decision and realize that the risks far outweigh the rewards.

zimonami
09-18-2012, 12:40 PM
The best way to get hurt is to NOT play hard.
This is the single most important/relevant point to remember in this whole argument.
Truly, they should buckle up until the final whistle bloes. It is absolutely the safest way to avoid injuries to any guy who relaxes on a play, and the man across from him decides to crush him. You never know... so, you simply never assume anything, and you play every down hard.
The Olinemen need to be ready... that's all. They only need to hold the guy for 1-2 seconds after the snap, and keep him off their legs. IIt's something they've done thousands of times.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 12:42 PM
After 29 pages, my opinion remains the same. It was an act of desperation and being pissed off about losing. I bet he never does it again....takers?

Question....Why didn't he do the same thing before the half with more time on the clock and the Giants backed up on their own 8 yard line? I seem to recall there was no attempt to "play hard till the clock reaches 0"

burier
09-18-2012, 12:46 PM
yes I think Schiano would have dont it regardless of the team i nthe same scenario. I do not think he did it because it was Eli, TC, or the Giants.
Why do think he has less respect for TC and the Gmen???

I think he's disrespectful period. But I don't think his disrespect would have manifested against Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. For some reason people think they can get away with craziness against Eli.

Was it Philly last year that blew Eli up after an INT? Something that just never happens to any of the other elites.

burier
09-18-2012, 12:49 PM
This is the single most important/relevant point to remember in this whole argument.
Truly, they should buckle up until the final whistle bloes. It is absolutely the safest way to avoid injuries to any guy who relaxes on a play, and the man across from him decides to crush him. You never know... so, you simply never assume anything, and you play every down hard.
The Olinemen need to be ready... that's all. They only need to hold the guy for 1-2 seconds after the snap, and keep him off their legs. IIt's something they've done thousands of times.

I think this might have been a message TC would have shared with the players after the game. However the fact that the Giants should have been ready doesn't excuse TBs behavior at all.

bluesince86
09-18-2012, 12:50 PM
After 29 pages, my opinion remains the same. It was an act of desperation and being pissed off about losing. I bet he never does it again....takers?

Question....Why didn't he do the same thing before the half with more time on the clock and the Giants backed up on their own 8 yard line? I seem to recall there was no attempt to "play hard till the clock reaches 0"

This is my problem with Schianos explination that he coaches his team to play hard until the end. He didnt make an attempt to play hard until the end in the week 1 game against Carolina and he didnt make any attempt to play hard until the end of the first half. That play call was just because he was pissed not just about losing, but how they lost. The Giants did a great job of not giving up and making plays, but where was he coaching up his players not to take plays off and get beat deep when there actually was time left in the game for them to make a statement?

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 12:57 PM
The risk of injury increased because of the Bucs attempt of trying to win the game by recovering the ball against the victory kneel. Had the Giants known what was about to happen (Can you really blame them that much since it rarely ever occurs?), they would of "tried" to stop the Bucs and the risk of injury would of decreased. I wouldn't be so against what Schiano did had he mentioned doing something like this to Coughlin before the game. It just reeks of desperation otherwise imo.

Are there any other plays that you want coaches to tell TC about before they run them??? LMFAO!!!

Eli2Shockey4aTD
09-18-2012, 01:01 PM
The Bucs can keep going for it, but now everyone will be prepared for it so now it went from almost no chance of working to being silly. Next time just do a fake kneel and toss it out to the rb to run up the score.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 01:02 PM
Are there any other plays that you want coaches to tell TC about before they run them??? LMFAO!!!

Do I really need to write it out? If you provide the Crayola and some quality paper, I'll make a pretty diagram just for you.

SackingMyths
09-18-2012, 01:26 PM
the leagues logic must also mystify you then

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/17/nfl-sides-with-buccaneers-on-kneel-down-controversy/

Negative, sir.

I understand it's legal (for the time being). That was NOT my argument, nor does it sway my opinion.

Do you agree with every ruling ever made in a court of law? I certainly hope not...

Dirty, cheap, underhanded, sneaky...these are adjectives I'd use to describe Schiano's legal-within-the-constantly-being-revised-rulebook "tactic."

The NFL changes their long-standing rules all the time for A) player safety or B) because a hotshot comes along and tries to circumvent the system. This would be a case of C) Both A & B apply.

Why did they leave this one the way it is?

I dunno...maybe because every one of the HUNDREDS of coaches who have came and went in this league seemed perfectly capable of adhering to common sense, and the unwritten code of ethics. That is until the new kid on the block came along, who's clearly smarter and tougher than everybody, had to come along and ruin it.

Now, they'll likely have to go ahead and re-define a rule that existed for nearly 100 years...All because of ONE GUY. Congrats, Greg! You're a pioneer (red font).

This doesn't make him smart. Doesn't make him innovative. It makes him self-absorbed, misguided, and a poor sport.

If he wanted his team to be seen as hard-nosed and relentless, maybe his team shouldn't have used the other 99.9% of the game time to cough up borderline all-time record setting #s to the tune of 41 Pts, 600+ yds, and the 7th most passing yards ever thrown in league history.

Fact: TB had 59:55 to try and be tough and beat the linemen across from them. They came up with zero sacks. Trying some last ditch BS during a kneel down -- that every other coach seems to understand perfectly to signify the game being over -- is unacceptable and entirely more likely to cause injury, controversy, and convey poor sportsmanship than it is to successfully recover the ball and send it into OT.

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 01:26 PM
Do I really need to write it out? If you provide the Crayola and some quality paper, I'll make a pretty diagram just for you.

Umm, by the way coach, since we're talking here, I plan on running a flea flicker to start the second half. Lol

mercurio
09-18-2012, 01:27 PM
The Giants are suckers for trick plays, however they only fall for them once. This is the case of another play they were not prepared for. If the Bucs pulled this off Schiano would have been a hero and the Giants would have looked stupid. The only rules in football are the ones that are written down.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 01:28 PM
Negative, sir.

I understand it's legal (for the time being). That was NOT my argument, nor does it sway my opinion.

Do you agree with every ruling ever made in a court of law? I certainly hope not...

Dirty, cheap, underhanded, sneaky...these are adjectives I'd use to describe Schiano's legal-within-the-constantly-being-revised-rulebook "tactic."

The NFL changes their long-standing rules all the time for A) player safety or B) because a hotshot comes along and tries to circumvent the system. This would be a case of C) Both A & B apply.

Why did they leave this one the way it is?

I dunno...maybe because every one of the HUNDREDS of coaches who have came and went in this league seemed perfectly capable of adhering to common sense, and the unwritten code of ethics. That is until the new kid on the block came along, who's clearly smarter and tougher than everybody, had to come along and ruin it.

Now, they'll likely have to go ahead and re-define a rule that existed for nearly 100 years...All because of ONE GUY. Congrats, Greg! You're a pioneer (red font).

This doesn't make him smart. Doesn't make him innovative. It makes him self-absorbed, misguided, and a poor sport.

If he wanted his team to be seen as hard-nosed and relentless, maybe his team shouldn't have used the other 99.9% of the game time to cough up all-time record setting #s to the tune of 41 Pts, 600+ yds, and the 7th most passing yards ever thrown in league history.

Fact: TB had 59:55 to try and be tough and beat the linemen across from them. They came up with zero sacks. Trying some last ditch BS during a kneel down -- that every other coach seems to understand perfectly to signify the game being over -- is unacceptable and entirely more likely to cause injury, controversy, and convey poor sportsmanship than it is to successfully recover the ball and send it into OT.

Great post.....I teared up!!

Chazj1
09-18-2012, 01:31 PM
It has been an unwritten understanding that when the outcome of a game is undeniable - which in this case it was the kneel down is an acceptble way for both teams to end the game. Not for the winner or the loser but for both to live and fight another day. I'm sure there have been Superbowls and playoff games that have ended in kneel downs.

Although the Bucs have every right to do what they did - it is a shame that the "new" norm has gone backwards.

Like in boxing -"protect yourself at all times" - at the same time it has been a gentlemens agreement - I guess the NFL has to be aware that not everyone is a gentleman in this league.

I guess treating the kneel down as another play is what should be expexted.

Still a borish play on the Bucs part

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 01:33 PM
Negative, sir.

I understand it's legal (for the time being). That was NOT my argument, nor does it sway my opinion.

Do you agree with every ruling ever made in a court of law? I certainly hope not...

Dirty, cheap, underhanded, sneaky...these are adjectives I'd use to describe Schiano's legal-within-the-constantly-being-revised-rulebook "tactic."

The NFL changes their long-standing rules all the time for A) player safety or B) because a hotshot comes along and tries to circumvent the system. This would be a case of C) Both A & B apply.

Why did they leave this one the way it is?

I dunno...maybe because every one of the HUNDREDS of coaches who have came and went in this league seemed perfectly capable of adhering to common sense, and the unwritten code of ethics. That is until the new kid on the block came along, who's clearly smarter and tougher than everybody, had to come along and ruin it.

Now, they'll likely have to go ahead and re-define a rule that existed for nearly 100 years...All because of ONE GUY. Congrats, Greg! You're a pioneer (red font).

This doesn't make him smart. Doesn't make him innovative. It makes him self-absorbed, misguided, and a poor sport.

If he wanted his team to be seen as hard-nosed and relentless, maybe his team shouldn't have used the other 99.9% of the game time to cough up borderline all-time record setting #s to the tune of 41 Pts, 600+ yds, and the 7th most passing yards ever thrown in league history.

Fact: TB had 59:55 to try and be tough and beat the linemen across from them. They came up with zero sacks. Trying some last ditch BS during a kneel down -- that every other coach seems to understand perfectly to signify the game being over -- is unacceptable and entirely more likely to cause injury, controversy, and convey poor sportsmanship than it is to successfully recover the ball and send it into OT.

How are they going to change the rule.

If the team with the lead has the ball with and is able to run out the clock, the game will now just be over???

This is simple, if there is time on the clock, then there are still snaps that have to happen.. Protect the ball accordingly...

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 01:38 PM
How are they going to change the rule.

If the team with the lead has the ball with and is able to run out the clock, the game will now just be over???

This is simple, if there is time on the clock, then there are still snaps that have to happen.. Protect the ball accordingly...

Would you agree that, until yesterday, there was a universally accepted agreement in the NFL that when employed, that formation signals the end of the game is within the grasp of the team with the ball? I cannot not recall any other time since this formation was instituted that the team on defense went after the offensive players aggressively enough cause injuries.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 01:42 PM
Umm, by the way coach, since we're talking here, I plan on running a flea flicker to start the second half. Lol

There are no gentlemen's agreements on flea flickers. Try again.

bandwgn86
09-18-2012, 01:45 PM
Fact: TB had 59:55 to try and be tough and beat the linemen across from them. They came up with zero sacks. Trying some last ditch BS during a kneel down -- that every other coach seems to understand perfectly to signify the game being over -- is unacceptable and entirely more likely to cause injury, controversy, and convey poor sportsmanship than it is to successfully recover the ball and send it into OT.i dont get this position.. are you suggesting TB wasnt trying for 59min and 55sec and only tried on the remaining 5 seconds..one could look at it as if they tried (and failed mind you) right up to the 60 minute mark..

which is what some of us believe should happen.. play the game to the end.

i think we all know the likelyhood of a forced fumble in that situation is pretty slim but they are still trying.. if a hail mary pass at the end of the game is acceptable in trying to win a game in the last seconds, imo so is this..

FlyingTruck
09-18-2012, 01:48 PM
I was watching the Broncos-Falcons game last night. The Broncos were only one TD down. Want to know what their defense did when Ryan went for the kneel down? Nothing. They made no contact with the Falcon's offensive line. Because that's how it should be done in the NFL. Putting everyone at risk for injury.

bandwgn86
09-18-2012, 01:53 PM
I was watching the Broncos-Falcons game last night. The Broncos were only one TD down. Want to know what their defense did when Ryan went for the kneel down? Nothing. They made no contact with the Falcon's offensive line. Because that's how it should be done in the NFL. Putting everyone at risk for injury.coach's choice obviously but i can respect TB's choice of playing to the very end. this unwritten rule thing is garbage

GameTime
09-18-2012, 01:55 PM
I was watching the Broncos-Falcons game last night. The Broncos were only one TD down. Want to know what their defense did when Ryan went for the kneel down? Nothing. They made no contact with the Falcon's offensive line. Because that's how it should be done in the NFL. Putting everyone at risk for injury.
BS....one of the defenders came in a bit too strong on the first knee and a little scuffle unsued.
Normally you dont even see that. The Bucs game had and effect....
The second knee....nothing....

YATittle1962
09-18-2012, 01:57 PM
I was watching the Broncos-Falcons game last night. The Broncos were only one TD down. Want to know what their defense did when Ryan went for the kneel down? Nothing. They made no contact with the Falcon's offensive line. Because that's how it should be done in the NFL. Putting everyone at risk for injury.

if I am not mistaken there were 2 kneel downs and on the first the defense went low and hard and started a scuffle

if nothing else the Schiano incident will have offenses on guard while in victory formation and not so relaxed

which is a good thing

Giantz4Life
09-18-2012, 02:07 PM
I was watching the Broncos-Falcons game last night. The Broncos were only one TD down. Want to know what their defense did when Ryan went for the kneel down? Nothing. They made no contact with the Falcon's offensive line. Because that's how it should be done in the NFL. Putting everyone at risk for injury.

One of the Broncos DTs went low on the first kneel down

BlueSanta
09-18-2012, 02:13 PM
Negative, sir.

I understand it's legal (for the time being). That was NOT my argument, nor does it sway my opinion.

Do you agree with every ruling ever made in a court of law? I certainly hope not...

Dirty, cheap, underhanded, sneaky...these are adjectives I'd use to describe Schiano's legal-within-the-constantly-being-revised-rulebook "tactic."

The NFL changes their long-standing rules all the time for A) player safety or B) because a hotshot comes along and tries to circumvent the system. This would be a case of C) Both A & B apply.

Why did they leave this one the way it is?

I dunno...maybe because every one of the HUNDREDS of coaches who have came and went in this league seemed perfectly capable of adhering to common sense, and the unwritten code of ethics. That is until the new kid on the block came along, who's clearly smarter and tougher than everybody, had to come along and ruin it.

Now, they'll likely have to go ahead and re-define a rule that existed for nearly 100 years...All because of ONE GUY. Congrats, Greg! You're a pioneer (red font).

This doesn't make him smart. Doesn't make him innovative. It makes him self-absorbed, misguided, and a poor sport.

If he wanted his team to be seen as hard-nosed and relentless, maybe his team shouldn't have used the other 99.9% of the game time to cough up borderline all-time record setting #s to the tune of 41 Pts, 600+ yds, and the 7th most passing yards ever thrown in league history.

Fact: TB had 59:55 to try and be tough and beat the linemen across from them. They came up with zero sacks. Trying some last ditch BS during a kneel down -- that every other coach seems to understand perfectly to signify the game being over -- is unacceptable and entirely more likely to cause injury, controversy, and convey poor sportsmanship than it is to successfully recover the ball and send it into OT.

Good post. Another point I would make in response this is that the league's public stance, and it's private stance are often 2 very different things. I guarantee they are going to revisit this in a private way, either a memo or in the offseason. I think we can all imagine the crap storm that would have ensued had anyone been injured, especially Eli.

However, watching that play the bucs had 3 guys over Baas, all in 4 point stances. I think that should have been a good presnap indicator that this was a possibility. I would have liked them to be less surprised I guess. You know, prepare for the worst and all.

Diamondring
09-18-2012, 02:19 PM
I was watching the Broncos-Falcons game last night. The Broncos were only one TD down. Want to know what their defense did when Ryan went for the kneel down? Nothing. They made no contact with the Falcon's offensive line. Because that's how it should be done in the NFL. Putting everyone at risk for injury.That is right.

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 02:23 PM
There are no gentlemen's agreements on flea flickers. Try again.

No kidding. I am simply entertaining your thought that maybe Schiano should've let Coughlin know that he handles "victory" formations a certain way.
Why in God's name would he do that.

The whole game of football is based on two coaches trying to out witt the other. The element of surprise, and catching the other team off guard is the whole premise of the game.

To suggest that he could've or should've given TC a heads up on his intentions is simply an assinine suggestion.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 02:34 PM
No kidding. I am simply entertaining your thought that maybe Schiano should've let Coughlin know that he handles "victory" formations a certain way.
Why in God's name would he do that.

The whole game of football is based on two coaches trying to out witt the other. The element of surprise, and catching the other team off guard is the whole premise of the game.

To suggest that he could've or should've given TC a heads up on his intentions is simply an assinine suggestion.

Is it really witty to take advantage of what most of the NFL universally views as a moment of sportsmanship between the winning and losing team? I suppose I could see that line of thinking being the proper avenue when in a serious war but not for a sports game. Maybe he should of focused his wit and intellect on helping his secondary not getting bent over a box by Nicks and Cruz instead. I could tell you a few ways to easily win a bar fight but it would be cheap and not an acceptable way to engage in the eyes of morality.

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 02:36 PM
Would you agree that, until yesterday, there was a universally accepted agreement in the NFL that when employed, that formation signals the end of the game is within the grasp of the team with the ball? I cannot not recall any other time since this formation was instituted that the team on defense went after the offensive players aggressively enough cause injuries.

I can't comment on whether it was a "univerally accepted aggreement", but yes I've never seen it happen. But does that automatically make Schiano cheap, and dirty because he tried to make one last play in desperation. Why do the Giants or any other team have the right to tell a team, "we believe we've won the game so we are gonna down the ball, and we expect you to give up."?

I also so John Fox's Bronco's last night, go in a little hard on the first kneel down play. It wasn't as hard as the Bucs came in, but it didn't look normal to me.

jakegibbs
09-18-2012, 02:39 PM
No kidding. I am simply entertaining your thought that maybe Schiano should've let Coughlin know that he handles "victory" formations a certain way.
Why in God's name would he do that.

The whole game of football is based on two coaches trying to out witt the other. The element of surprise, and catching the other team off guard is the whole premise of the game.

To suggest that he could've or should've given TC a heads up on his intentions is simply an assinine suggestion.

Gruden used some words of wisdom last night to put it all in prospective. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Now if he get's his QB busted up on a kneel down he'll get the message right?

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 02:41 PM
Is it really witty to take advantage of what most of the NFL universally views as a moment of sportsmanship between the winning and losing team? I suppose I could see that line of thinking being the proper avenue when in a serious war but not for a sports game. Maybe he should of focused his wit and intellect on helping his secondary not getting bent over a box by Nicks and Cruz instead. I could tell you a few ways to easily win a bar fight but it would be cheap and not an acceptable way to engage in the eyes of morality.

You still don't get it, I am not saying what he did was witty. I am stating that in no possible way ever, would two coaches discuss their strategy before a game, like you suggested he could've done. Do you realize how rediculous that statement was and how it would never happen.

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 02:43 PM
Gruden used some words of wisdom last night to put it all in prospective. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Now if he get's his QB busted up on a kneel down he'll get the message right?

I'm sure he expects teams to do it to him. I don't think he's worried about it.

FlyingTruck
09-18-2012, 02:44 PM
Honestly that's fine. Coaches might try that all year now. All I care about is the line Tuck said after the game. "It will not soon be forgotten." Teams are going to show us respect, one way or another.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 02:45 PM
You still don't get it, I am not saying what he did was witty. I am stating that in no possible way ever, would two coaches discuss their strategy before a game, like you suggested he could've done. Do you realize how rediculous that statement was and how it would never happen.

No, I get it. I don't really see "attacking the victory kneel formation" as some huge part of a coaches strategy. It's not even necessary to use hindsight to tell you how he would of been better off mentioning to Coughlin that is team won't give up even when the Giants take a knee. Obviously, things would of been better off had it never happened in the first place but it's too late for that now.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:54 PM
You still don't get it, I am not saying what he did was witty. I am stating that in no possible way ever, would two coaches discuss their strategy before a game, like you suggested he could've done. Do you realize how rediculous that statement was and how it would never happen.

Everyone see's what you're saying......they are just disagreeing with the anaolgy. I realize it was meant to be funny, humor is sometimes over the head of people during emotional threads like these....but they are technically right. It's 2 totally different situations.

Agree or not, the Bucs KNEW that the Giants weren't expecting them to do it, and it may have been a smart move if there were any shot at winning the game with it.....but there wasn't, and they knowingly violated a gentlemen's agreement. Not only does that put the Giants and Eli in danger of getting hurt....but he risks his players own health because everyone that kneels down with them is going to expect it.....even when they don't. Expect o-lines to fire off the line first in victory formation plays.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:14 PM
"How dare you guys keep trying after we have decided that we won!!!"

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:15 PM
I can't comment on whether it was a "univerally accepted aggreement", but yes I've never seen it happen. But does that automatically make Schiano cheap, and dirty because he tried to make one last play in desperation. Why do the Giants or any other team have the right to tell a team, "we believe we've won the game so we are gonna down the ball, and we expect you to give up."?

I also so John Fox's Bronco's last night, go in a little hard on the first kneel down play. It wasn't as hard as the Bucs came in, but it didn't look normal to me.

We all look at this through a lens based upon, in part, our own up-bringing. I was taught at an early age that "your word is your bond" and if you shook hands in agreement that was just as good as your signature on an official document. So, for me, there was an implicit agreement among all of the teams in the NFL that has now been broken. Good, bad, time will tell but for me, it was uncalled for and now teams will be more alert to the possibility.

I don't know if Eli's knee was already down before he was knocked to the ground. But, in the future, you are going to have to deal with the possibility of a personal foul situation if the QB's knee has touched the ground and he is hit after that has occurred.

Having said all of that, we need to get off this horse and talk about Carolina and the future.

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 03:19 PM
"How dare you guys keep trying after we have decided that we won!!!"

I admire your resolve in this thread. In fact, you probably won the argument. Maybe you should just declare victory and take a knee:p

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 03:20 PM
There must be some Rutgers fans on these boards. Schiano made a statement yesterday that in 4 of the last five years Rutgers caused a fumble on that play. Is this true??

If this truley is the case, and I have no idea if it is, then one can totally understand why he would try it here.

Bottom line. Is it normal practice? NO! Will teams remember this and prepare for it against the Bucs? Yes! Will teams do it back to the Bucs? Probably!

Does he have the right to do it if he wants? Yes!

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:20 PM
I admire your resolve in this thread. In fact, you probably won the argument. Maybe you should just declare victory and take a knee:p

C'mon.....I DARE YOU!!! :cool:

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:22 PM
We all look at this through a lens based upon, in part, our own up-bringing. I was taught at an early age that "your word is your bond" and if you shook hands in agreement that was just as good as your signature on an official document. So, for me, there was an implicit agreement among all of the teams in the NFL that has now been broken. Good, bad, time will tell but for me, it was uncalled for and now teams will be more alert to the possibility.

I don't know if Eli's knee was already down before he was knocked to the ground. But, in the future, you are going to have to deal with the possibility of a personal foul situation if the QB's knee has touched the ground and he is hit after that has occurred.

Having said all of that, we need to get off this horse and talk about Carolina and the future.
RF...I have never heard of any such agreement. I'm not saying its not there, but I have never heard of that. I can't believe that a team would agree to quit trying once the team that's ahead decided they have won. I can see if the score was more than 8 points, but not in this case.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:23 PM
I admire your resolve in this thread. In fact, you probably won the argument. Maybe you should just declare victory and take a knee:p
Your right. I have decided that I win this argument so you all must now stop trying and concede your defeat,

Anything less would be ungentlemenly.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:23 PM
There must be some Rutgers fans on these boards. Schiano made a statement yesterday that in 4 of the last five years Rutgers caused a fumble on that play. Is this true??

If this truley is the case, and I have no idea if it is, then one can totally understand why he would try it here.

Bottom line. Is it normal practice? NO! Will teams remember this and prepare for it against the Bucs? Yes! Will teams do it back to the Bucs? Probably!

Does he have the right to do it if he wants? Yes!

Of course he does.......that is, until the media forces Goodel to make a rule against it and start finingcoaches and players for it.

But that wasn't the point, was it? The point is it was a scumbag move done out of anger. They were in no position to win the game with that play.

zimonami
09-18-2012, 03:23 PM
I admire your resolve in this thread. In fact, you probably won the argument. Maybe you should just declare victory and take a knee:p
No question that Morehead won, now it's just a case of him having time to chicken kneel while the opposition is taking its shots at tripping him up.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:24 PM
RF...I have never heard of any such agreement. I'm not saying its not there, but I have never heard of that. I can't believe that a team would agree to quit trying once the team that's ahead decided they have won. I can see if the score was more than 8 points, but not in this case.

So why has it never been done until then?

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Your right. I have decided that I win this argument so you all must now stop trying and concede your defeat,

Anything less would be ungentlemenly.

I stopped trying back on page 2

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:29 PM
RF...I have never heard of any such agreement. I'm not saying its not there, but I have never heard of that. I can't believe that a team would agree to quit trying once the team that's ahead decided they have won. I can see if the score was more than 8 points, but not in this case.

It's one of those "there is snow on the ground so I assume it snowed overnight" things. I know of no situation where that formation was formed and the team on defense went full bore at the team on offense. Most of the time you get a shot of both sidelines and the coaches are taking off their headsets. I'm not suggesting the coaches got together and did rock, paper scissors. I am simply saying it has been a play that has not been contested in the way it was yesterday. If it had, we'd have seen plenty of evidence by now. I consider it to be a dishonorable things to do.

Plus, and if this doesn't make my point, nothing will, Jaws says Schiano was right.

It's over and done with, it happened, and now we know how at least one coach feels about the play. He didn't feel that way in the first half so I am guessing he had an epiphany in the second half.

You and I will never agree on this matter and that's perfectly fine. We live to post in an other thread :o

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:29 PM
So why has it never been done until then?

That, so simply, is the question to be answered.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:31 PM
No question that Morehead won, now it's just a case of him having time to chicken kneel while the opposition is taking its shots at tripping him up.
Unlike our football team, I will keep my guard up.

bluesince86
09-18-2012, 03:32 PM
It's one of those "there is snow on the ground so I assume it snowed overnight" things. I know of no situation where that formation was formed and the team on defense went full bore at the team on offense. Most of the time you get a shot of both sidelines and the coaches are taking off their headsets. I'm not suggesting the coaches got together and did rock, paper scissors. I am simply saying it has been a play that has not been contested in the way it was yesterday. If it had, we'd have seen plenty of evidence by now. I consider it to be a dishonorable things to do.

Plus, and if this doesn't make my point, nothing will, Jaws says Schiano was right.

It's over and done with, it happened, and now we know how at least one coach feels about the play. He didn't feel that way in the first half so I am guessing he had an epiphany in the second half.

You and I will never agree on this matter and that's perfectly fine. We live to post in an other thread :o

+1

Well said Roanoke

fansince69
09-18-2012, 03:32 PM
We all look at this through a lens based upon, in part, our own up-bringing. I was taught at an early age that "your word is your bond" and if you shook hands in agreement that was just as good as your signature on an official document. So, for me, there was an implicit agreement among all of the teams in the NFL that has now been broken. Good, bad, time will tell but for me, it was uncalled for and now teams will be more alert to the possibility.

I don't know if Eli's knee was already down before he was knocked to the ground. But, in the future, you are going to have to deal with the possibility of a personal foul situation if the QB's knee has touched the ground and he is hit after that has occurred.

Having said all of that, we need to get off this horse and talk about Carolina and the future.

I have tried to stay completely out of this whole discussion because i can honestly see this from both standpoints.....But the other day I was thinking this exact same thing RF...my question came to this......Lets say team X gets that personal foul.....how would they enforce it? the game is over....they could fine them but i can't think of any punishment(penalty) that would keep it from happening

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:32 PM
Your right. I have decided that I win this argument so you all must now stop trying and concede your defeat,

Anything less would be ungentlemenly.

Just imagine if you had done that on page 1, we all would have spent more productive time in our sock drawrers lol

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:33 PM
I have tried to stay completely out of this whole discussion because i can honestly see this from both standpoints.....But the other day I was thinking this exact same thing RF...my question came to this......Lets say team X gets that personal foul.....how would they enforce it? the game is over....they could fine them but i can't think of any punishment(penalty) that would keep it from happening

It would be an unenforceable penalty so why not take the QB's head off?

fansince69
09-18-2012, 03:34 PM
It would be an unenforceable penalty so why not take the QB's head off?

EXACTLY

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:34 PM
Unlike our football team, I will keep my guard up.

Not to worry, I have your back

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:36 PM
That, so simply, is the question to be answered.
The game evolves. When was the last time teams used the shotgun before Dallas did it in the 70's?
Why would teams convert to zone coverage when DB's always covered man to man before?
Why use a soccer style kicker when straight ahead kickers were only used?

Should I go on. Clearly this coach thought he figured a way to get to the QB before he took a knee. Seems to me he either did it or almost did it. And when you knock a QB on his ***, he could fumble.
It just seems to me that he thought he could do something that hadn't been tried before.

nhpgiantsfan
09-18-2012, 03:36 PM
Of course he does.......that is, until the media forces Goodel to make a rule against it and start finingcoaches and players for it.

But that wasn't the point, was it? The point is it was a scumbag move done out of anger. They were in no position to win the game with that play.

And what exactly would that rule be? If 4 snaps is enought time to kill the remaining time on the clock and the opposition has no time outs left, then there is no contact aloud?? Why even send the teams out there then? I don't understand why so many people are saying they will make a rule to not allow this.
It's football. If there is time on the clock you have to snap the ball. You need to protect the ball accordingly.

Why is it that they can kill each other all game in the trenches and then all of a sudden a little contact on the last play and now teams need to be gentlemen and be careful not to hurt anyone.

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 03:36 PM
Let's just hope we have alot of opportunities to see how the other teams on our schedule defend against that play.:beer:

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:37 PM
Not to worry, I have your back
I'm glad to hear that RF. I wouldn't want these guys taking out your (figurative) knees.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:39 PM
Let's just hope we have alot of opportunities to see how the other teams on our schedule defend against that play.:beer:
Maybe its a futile play, but he took a shot. My point is that he had the right to try, and I like the fact that someone finally tried instead of standing around, waiting to lose.

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:39 PM
The game evolves. When was the last time teams used the shotgun before Dallas did it in the 70's?
Why would teams convert to zone coverage when DB's always covered man to man before?
Why use a soccer style kicker when straight ahead kickers were only used?

Should I go on. Clearly this coach thought he figured a way to get to the QB before he took a knee. Seems to me he either did it or almost did it. And when you knock a QB on his ***, he could fumble.
It just seems to me that he thought he could do something that hadn't been tried before.

I declare you the winner! It's not midnight yet, but the rests of us are exhausted :p

burier
09-18-2012, 03:39 PM
"How dare you guys keep trying after we have decided that we won!!!"

Just because you don't agree with the agreement doesn't mean its okay to break it.

And Its not that we decided that we won....WE WON. Per the conditions stipulated in the agreement the game had been won.

What Tampa did had nothing to do with trying hard or playing hard it had to do with breaking an agreement and there's really no arguing that point.

To say that its ok because TB was within a score isn't the point because the agreement doesn't include margin of victory. It simply states that if I have possession and the lead and you can't stop the clock before time expires then I win and we don't have to blow anyone's knee out just to prolong the inevitable.

(Conversely. Had the Giants faked taking a knee and then thrown a bomb to Victor Cruz for another TD that would have also violated the agreement)

Now if the NFL wants to abolish the agreement I have no problem with that. But as long as the agreement is in the place it needs to be honored.

(And I will now strike the word "agreement" from my lexicon)

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 03:40 PM
I'm glad to hear that RF. I wouldn't want these guys taking out your (figurative) knees.

I would like to close by suggesting it is possible to have an ongoing debate here without anyone being a moron, non-fan, etc. Nicely done one and all.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:40 PM
And what exactly would that rule be? If 4 snaps is enought time to kill the remaining time on the clock and the opposition has no time outs left, then there is no contact aloud?? Why even send the teams out there then? I don't understand why so many people are saying they will make a rule to not allow this.
It's football. If there is time on the clock you have to snap the ball. You need to protect the ball accordingly.

Why is it that they can kill each other all game in the trenches and then all of a sudden a little contact on the last play and now teams need to be gentlemen and be careful not to hurt anyone.

There's already a "defenseless player" rule on the books.....it wouldn't be a stretch to include kneeldowns. Players are vulnerable to injury in that situation because they are not expecting it based on the history of these plays in the NFL. However, I think that just may change because of this.

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 03:41 PM
Maybe its a futile play, but he took a shot. My point is that he had the right to try, and I like the fact that someone finally tried instead of standing around, waiting to lose.

I know, I was just trying to end on a positive note that we all could agree on. C'mon everybody sing with me.. "Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya....

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:43 PM
The game evolves. When was the last time teams used the shotgun before Dallas did it in the 70's?
Why would teams convert to zone coverage when DB's always covered man to man before?
Why use a soccer style kicker when straight ahead kickers were only used?

Should I go on. Clearly this coach thought he figured a way to get to the QB before he took a knee. Seems to me he either did it or almost did it. And when you knock a QB on his ***, he could fumble.
It just seems to me that he thought he could do something that hadn't been tried before.

With that logic it should be ok to hit a sliding QB to try and dislodge the ball..

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:43 PM
Just because you don't agree with the agreement doesn't mean its okay to break it.

And Its not that we decided that we won....WE WON. Per the conditions stipulated in the agreement the game had been won.

What Tampa did had nothing to do with trying hard or playing hard it had to do with breaking an agreement and there's really no arguing that point.

To say that its ok because TB was within a score isn't the point because the agreement doesn't include margin of victory. It simply states that if I have possession and the lead and you can't stop the clock before time expires then I win and we don't have to blow anyone's knee out just to prolong the inevitable.

(Conversely. Had the Giants faked taking a knee and then thrown a bomb to Victor Cruz for another TD that would have also violated the agreement)

Now if the NFL wants to abolish the agreement I have no problem with that. But as long as the agreement is in the place it needs to be honored.

What agreement? Maybe you can show me this unwritten agreement....In writing of course.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:44 PM
I would like to close by suggesting it is possible to have an ongoing debate here without anyone being a moron, non-fan, etc. Nicely done one and all.

Possible? Yes. Practical?

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:45 PM
With that locic it should be ok to hit a sliding QB to try and dislodge the ball..
There is a rule against that.
There is no rule about playing hard on every snap. I think its actually sort of encouraged. Ironically, especially by our HC.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:45 PM
What agreement? Maybe you can show me this unwritten agreement....In writing of course.

This is a bad argument. We all know the unwritten agreement exists....otherwise we would have seen it before.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:45 PM
Possible? Yes. Practical?
NO one can drive a thread like Good Ol' Morehead.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:46 PM
There is a rule against that.
There is no rule about playing hard on every snap. I think its actually sort of encouraged. Ironically, especially by our HC.

But the logic is the same. The QB is conceding that he is down and will not try to advance the ball.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:46 PM
This is a bad argument. We all know the unwritten agreement exists....otherwise we would have seen it before.
Think about how funny that statement is in a slightly different context.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:48 PM
Think about how funny that statement is in a slightly different context.

Yeah....I was going for that, actually.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:48 PM
But the logic is the same. The QB is conceding that he is down and will not try to advance the ball.
So you are saying that the QB gets to control whether or not the defense can try to make a play?
I reject that completely. And that really is the heart of the discussion.
Does the team ahead get to tell team thats trailing that they have lost and they are forbidden to continue to try to win the game.

I say NO!

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 03:48 PM
This is a bad argument. We all know the unwritten agreement exists....otherwise we would have seen it before.

That's the funniest goddamn thing i've read all day. but like MS said I think you meant it differently.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:48 PM
Yeah....I was going for that, actually.
Well then color me impressed.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:51 PM
So you are saying that the QB gets to control whether or not the defense can try to make a play?
I reject that completely. And that really is the heart of the discussion.
Does the team ahead get to tell team thats trailing that they have lost and they are forbidden to continue to try to win the game.

I say NO!

It happens all the time in other situations. Cruz had a fumble reversed because he conceded the play before he fumbled it. That is essentially what the victory formation is.

Morehead State
09-18-2012, 03:54 PM
It happens all the time in other situations. Cruz had a fumble reversed because he conceded the play before he fumbled it. That is essentially what the victory formation is.
But thats not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about trying to get to the QB before he takes a knee. A player can always down himself, but he hasn't done it until his knee officially touches the ground (or whatever body part he chooses)
Those guys decided to try to knock Eli down before his knee touched. And I can't really tell if he got the knee down or not. Until the knee hits the ground, he's subject to being hit.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 03:58 PM
But thats not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about trying to get to the QB before he takes a knee. A player can always down himself, but he hasn't done it until his knee officially touches the ground (or whatever body part he chooses)
Those guys decided to try to knock Eli down before his knee touched. And I can't really tell if he got the knee down or not. Until the knee hits the ground, he's subject to being hit.

As is sliding or going out of bounds. The difference being that ALL players are actually playing full force. Sorry....it's a scumbag move to fly at players knees when they don't expect it. Whether you like it or not....the agreement is there.

rainierjef
09-18-2012, 04:04 PM
I personally have no problem with the play. There has been an unwritten rule over the years, that when in victory formation the offense is no longer trying to advance the ball, so there is no need for a full on assault by the defense. Just because it has never been attempted on defense before doesn’t make it not right, the objective is to play until the final whistle blows.
My only problem with the play in question is the defense attacking the Knees of the offensive line. Maybe that was the only way to get to the QB maybe not, but I felt it was the quickest way to injure another player and THAT is what I have a problem with, not the attempt in question but the execution.

PS. This is not an attempt to make this debate go on just my thought on the matter.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 04:05 PM
I personally have no problem with the play. There has been an unwritten rule over the years, that when in victory formation the offense is no longer trying to advance the ball, so there is no need for a full on assault by the defense. Just because it has never been attempted on defense before doesn’t make it not right, the objective is to play until the final whistle blows.
My only problem with the play in question is the defense attacking the Knees of the offensive line. Maybe that was the only way to get to the QB maybe not, but I felt it was the quickest way to injure another player and THAT is what I have a problem with, not the attempt in question but the execution.

PS. This is not an attempt to make this debate go on just my thought on the matter.

Couldn't agree more.

TheEnigma
09-18-2012, 04:07 PM
I personally have no problem with the play. There has been an unwritten rule over the years, that when in victory formation the offense is no longer trying to advance the ball, so there is no need for a full on assault by the defense. Just because it has never been attempted on defense before doesn’t make it not right, the objective is to play until the final whistle blows.
My only problem with the play in question is the defense attacking the Knees of the offensive line. Maybe that was the only way to get to the QB maybe not, but I felt it was the quickest way to injure another player and THAT is what I have a problem with, not the attempt in question but the execution.

PS. This is not an attempt to make this debate go on just my thought on the matter.

Hey man. Are you able to make gifs by chance? I had an idea for a pretty good Giants one.

((Yeah I know this is off-topic. Diehl with it))

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 04:08 PM
I personally have no problem with the play. There has been an unwritten rule over the years, that when in victory formation the offense is no longer trying to advance the ball, so there is no need for a full on assault by the defense. Just because it has never been attempted on defense before doesn’t make it not right, the objective is to play until the final whistle blows.
My only problem with the play in question is the defense attacking the Knees of the offensive line. Maybe that was the only way to get to the QB maybe not, but I felt it was the quickest way to injure another player and THAT is what I have a problem with, not the attempt in question but the execution.

PS. This is not an attempt to make this debate go on just my thought on the matter.

I am relatively certain that's what TC and the players have been saying.

YATittle1962
09-18-2012, 04:11 PM
I wonder why Belichick didn't have his guys dive at our offensive linemans knees on the last snap of SB XLII

go for the win Belichick.........YOU COWARD!!!!!!!!......

rainierjef
09-18-2012, 04:17 PM
Hey man. Are you able to make gifs by chance? I had an idea for a pretty good Giants one.

((Yeah I know this is off-topic. Diehl with it))

Never did one before but, i have a friend that can show me.

rainierjef
09-18-2012, 04:18 PM
I wonder why Belichick didn't have his guys dive at our offensive linemans knees on the last snap of SB XLII

go for the win Belichick.........YOU COWARD!!!!!!!!......

Lmao, this made me laugh.

thomsoad
09-18-2012, 04:28 PM
But thats not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about trying to get to the QB before he takes a knee. A player can always down himself, but he hasn't done it until his knee officially touches the ground (or whatever body part he chooses)
Those guys decided to try to knock Eli down before his knee touched. And I can't really tell if he got the knee down or not. Until the knee hits the ground, he's subject to being hit.

If Schiano was really going for the win as he said...then why did Tampa still have a TO remaining? He culda stopped the clock and tried again or used it to stop the clock.

If he was truly just going for the win...no chance TB would still have a timeout.

zimonami
09-18-2012, 04:43 PM
This thread took on life of its own
How about when your baseball allows a man to steal 2nd or 3rd uncontested from the catcher... they call it indifference.
So new NFL Rule...
If there is only time for one play, and a Quarterback kneel is declared by the Offense, the Defense may declare Indifference and the clock will be allowed to run out without having to have another play from Scrimmage.

Greg Schiano
09-18-2012, 04:47 PM
I feel like some kind of super-villian... 67 pages. Good times. :cool:

RoanokeFan
09-18-2012, 04:48 PM
We've gona s far as we can with this