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Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 10:08 AM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?

fansince69
09-17-2012, 10:16 AM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?


My son and I question this every game for last several years....3rd and short yardage....the Giants will throw the ball down the field many times......it results in many big plays...but just as often ends with a punt......

The question is would you give up the big plays to play conservative?

It looks great when it works....makes you pull your hair out when you punt

B-Red22
09-17-2012, 10:17 AM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?

how often have we been able to gaint just 2 yards in short yardage situation lately?? There I think you have your answer now.

Kruunch
09-17-2012, 10:19 AM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?

KG is infamous for that kind of call.

When it works it's a thing of beauty ... when it doesn't you get a ton of Killdrive posts.

But considering the history and the outcome this time as well ... I'll call it a thing of beauty :D

Diamondring
09-17-2012, 10:20 AM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?Can't do that all of the time. Giants tried to do that against the Egals in 2010 and the Egals came back to beat the Giants. The Giants also tried to run out the clock but was unsuccessful. I say put up more points and forget about running out the clock mess.

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 10:28 AM
You guys are right. It's not the first time. We do it frequently and we've seen it work as well as fail.

I'm not sure though that it's Gilbride in that it ultimately is up to Eli whether or not he wants to go deep. I think on this particular play Nicks ran a slant and was an option, but Eli saw Cruz had his man beat.

All in all it was just an amazing finish. It's hard to believe we could overcome that 1st half.

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 10:29 AM
Can't do that all of the time. Giants tried to do that against the Egals in 2010 and the Egals came back to beat the Giants. The Giants also tried to run out the clock but was unsuccessful. I say put up more points and forget about running out the clock mess.

Agreed. In hindsight running the clock was a non-issue right there since we needed 2 scores.

BJacobs aka The Problem
09-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Think we're missing one important thing here, how do we know that it wasn't a play designed to get the 2 yards through the air and Eli noticed he had single coverage on the outside?

Kruunch
09-17-2012, 10:32 AM
Think we're missing one important thing here, how do we know that it wasn't a play designed to get the 2 yards through the air and Eli noticed he had single coverage on the outside?

Sure ... but the architect of the option is Gilbride.

gumby74
09-17-2012, 10:35 AM
stupid football that worked. but hey, i'm not complaining - this week. But still, stupid.

BJacobs aka The Problem
09-17-2012, 10:36 AM
Sure ... but the architect of the option is Gilbride.

Yeah, but ultimately, it's Eli who runs the show once they get to the line of scrimmage. That's always going to be one of those plays where you're like, if it works, you're jumping around yelling TOUCHDOWN going crazy and if it doesn't, you're like, WTF!!!

Then again, if they decided to run it, it would still have the safe affect. Happy as hell we got the 1st down, pissed off because Gilbride always calls <insert play here> and we can't rush for a first down.

giantsfan420
09-17-2012, 10:42 AM
some of the best opportunities to go downfield are on 2nd and 3rd downs and short. the d has to respect the run, and usually stack the box. u will almost always get at least 1 1v1 matchup on 3rd and short...that pass wasnt anymore risky than trying to run for the first there...eli has excellent accuracy on the deep ball, and there was no way TBs corners were containing nicks or cruz 1v1. i made a thread a few weeks ago about passing out of 3rd and short and im stoked to see us do so last night when it mattered most

BJacobs aka The Problem
09-17-2012, 10:45 AM
some of the best opportunities to go downfield are on 2nd and 3rd downs and short. the d has to respect the run, and usually stack the box. u will almost always get at least 1 1v1 matchup on 3rd and short...that pass wasnt anymore risky than trying to run for the first there...eli has excellent accuracy on the deep ball, and there was no way TBs corners were containing nicks or cruz 1v1. i made a thread a few weeks ago about passing out of 3rd and short and im stoked to see us do so last night when it mattered most

I can tell ya one thing. I'm not too crazy about taking shots down the field on 3rd and shorts with the game on the line, but hot damn it's friggen great when it works!

OX1
09-17-2012, 10:52 AM
With the way that Eli has been throwing the deep ball and the receivers we have.with one on one, there is almost a better chance we complete the deep ball vs a 3 yard pass.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 11:13 AM
its a gamble play......no other way to look at it. Eli had Bennet 1 on 1.....

OX1
09-17-2012, 11:19 AM
its a gamble play......no other way to look at it. Eli had Bennet 1 on 1.....\

Bennet is not near reliable enough (even at 30 yards closer) at this point to take that chance.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 11:23 AM
\

Bennet is not near reliable enough (even at 30 yards closer) at this point to take that chance.
apparently they disagree with you.....

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 11:38 AM
Yeah, but ultimately, it's Eli who runs the show once they get to the line of scrimmage. That's always going to be one of those plays where you're like, if it works, you're jumping around yelling TOUCHDOWN going crazy and if it doesn't, you're like, WTF!!!

Then again, if they decided to run it, it would still have the safe affect. Happy as hell we got the 1st down, pissed off because Gilbride always calls <insert play here> and we can't rush for a first down.

I don't necessarily think we should have run it on 3rd and 2. I just think we should have played it safe and moved the chains with a short "easy" pass.

GameTime
09-17-2012, 11:39 AM
I don't necessarily think we should have run it on 3rd and 2. I just think we should have played it safe and moved the chains with a short "easy" pass.

Its tough to tell if Eli saw the 1 on 1 and threw it because of that or if he was on the play from the snap.....
It worked so all is good. When Eli let it go I was screaming....."WTF....just get the first""!!!! Then I was cheering....lol

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 11:41 AM
some of the best opportunities to go downfield are on 2nd and 3rd downs and short. the d has to respect the run, and usually stack the box. u will almost always get at least 1 1v1 matchup on 3rd and short...that pass wasnt anymore risky than trying to run for the first there...eli has excellent accuracy on the deep ball, and there was no way TBs corners were containing nicks or cruz 1v1. i made a thread a few weeks ago about passing out of 3rd and short and im stoked to see us do so last night when it mattered most

It's risky, and I fume when we are not successful at it. We need to keep the drive alive at that point. It wasn't 4th down with only seconds left.

If we don't make that play it's 4th and 2 on our 19 with 6:30 on the clock. Now what?

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 11:43 AM
Its tough to tell if Eli saw the 1 on 1 and threw it because of that or if he was on the play from the snap.....
It worked so all is good. When Eli let it go I was screaming....."WTF....just get the first""!!!! Then I was cheering....lol

lol. That throw was in my end zone so I saw he had Cruz, but still I just couldn't believe it.

Giants5699
09-17-2012, 11:46 AM
who gives a f***? We won!

giantsfan420
09-17-2012, 11:55 AM
It's risky, and I fume when we are not successful at it. We need to keep the drive alive at that point. It wasn't 4th down with only seconds left.

If we don't make that play it's 4th and 2 on our 19 with 6:30 on the clock. Now what?

the thing is ur acting like we are a good short yardage team...i am equally as fuming if not more so when we try running it every short yardage situation and the d is teeing off and getting us for losses...again, no more risky than running it. in fact, the chance of success could even be higher when u consider it comes down to cruz n nicks simply beating their man 1v1, which is something we've seen time and time again.

gumby74
09-17-2012, 12:02 PM
I don't necessarily think we should have run it on 3rd and 2. I just think we should have played it safe and moved the chains with a short "easy" pass. This. Go with the high percentage play.

yoeddy
09-17-2012, 12:04 PM
I love the fact that we have a QB who, when dared to go for the big play, is willing to do it with confidence...

Manning
09-17-2012, 12:09 PM
We've done it so many times now for many year but I have to say it feels like we've been more successful than not.

Drez
09-17-2012, 12:32 PM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?

Well, considering how generally ineffective we are at short yardage I can see why we want to pass in that situation.

However, on that particular play there was something else going on. Before that drive, they were talking on the sideline about how when Tampa ran a certain look/defense that Cruz said he could get past the safety and down the sideline. Lo and behold, Tampa ran that certain look/defense, Cruz was able to beat the safety and get down the sideline.I think I heard that in the post game interview, but I'll try and find a link to it in a little bit.

gumby74
09-17-2012, 12:33 PM
Well, considering how generally ineffective we are at short yardage I can see why we want to pass in that situation.

However, on that particular play there was something else going on. Before that drive, they were talking on the sideline about how when Tampa ran that look that Cruz said he could get past the safety and down the sideline. Lo and behold, Tampa ran that look, Cruz was able to beat the safety and get down the sideline.I think I heard that in the post game interview, but I'll try and find a link to it in a little bit. Yeah, but it's one thing to pass a high percentage play and another to go deep.

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 12:52 PM
You guys are right. It's not the first time. We do it frequently and we've seen it work as well as fail.

I'm not sure though that it's Gilbride in that it ultimately is up to Eli whether or not he wants to go deep. I think on this particular play Nicks ran a slant and was an option, but Eli saw Cruz had his man beat.

All in all it was just an amazing finish. It's hard to believe we could overcome that 1st half.

Eli was taking the one on one all day with great success

he had short options on that play but saw that the safety was off and also saw that the DB expected Cruz to sit

you take that every time

GMENAGAIN
09-17-2012, 12:59 PM
I will analyze this like every decision on the MB is analyzed:

It worked so it was a great decision and KG is a genius. If it did not work then it would have been a horrendous decision and KG would be an idiot.

njg85m
09-17-2012, 12:59 PM
One thing I'm surprised no one else mentioned is that as that play was developing Eli clearly could have run for at least 5 yards and picked up the free first down, but instead still chose to fire it deep to Cruz on 3rd and 2.

Makes it even ballsier IMO.


Also, When I watch Eli run, I'm reminded of a deer taking it's first steps, so I'm cool with the deep pass ;)

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 01:02 PM
the thing is ur acting like we are a good short yardage team...i am equally as fuming if not more so when we try running it every short yardage situation and the d is teeing off and getting us for losses...again, no more risky than running it. in fact, the chance of success could even be higher when u consider it comes down to cruz n nicks simply beating their man 1v1, which is something we've seen time and time again.

I wasn't suggesting we should have run it. I would just prefer that we go with a higher percentage play as Gumby stated. We didn't need to go deep in that situation. We needed a first down.

As for our run game, Brown averaged almost 5.5 yards a carry yesterday, so we weren't exactly inept.

But sure, I'm sure you were very happy to see Eli throwing it 80 times. lol.

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 01:05 PM
Eli was taking the one on one all day with great success

he had short options on that play but saw that the safety was off and also saw that the DB expected Cruz to sit

you take that every time

I would take that every time but not inside my 20 with under 7 minutes to go on a 3rd and 2.

It's great we connected, but it seems way too risky IMO.

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 01:05 PM
One thing I'm surprised no one else mentioned is that as that play was developing Eli clearly could have run for at least 5 yards and picked up the free first down, but instead still chose to fire it deep to Cruz on 3rd and 2.

Makes it even ballsier IMO.


Also, When I watch Eli run, I'm reminded of a deer taking it's first steps, so I'm cool with the deep pass ;)

lol.

TrueBlue@NYC
09-17-2012, 01:13 PM
That play had little to do with play call as much as both Eli and Cruz being on the same page, and Eli recognizing the busted coverage. That was an easy completion. Bucs were playing for either the draw or that short low-risk pass people were clarmouring for. Cruz made a route adjustment, Eli saw it and made the throw.

Nothing ballsy about it, just going with what had worked all game and adjusting to how the defense was playing that down. A run or quick throw probably wouldnt have converted against the coverage and blitz.

TheAnalyst
09-17-2012, 01:14 PM
Its either throw the ball 30+ yards or the shotgun draw play. Those are KGs only 2 play calls and Eli can audible to either one depending on what he sees. I just for the life of me cant understand why we have no quick slants or bubble screen plays that work. Easy throws that can go a long way on a miss tackle, but at least get a first on a 3rd and short.

BeatYale
09-17-2012, 01:20 PM
How exactly do you guys know for a fact that KG planned a bomb down field? Eli's the one who makes the reads and decides where to go with the ball, and on that play Cruz clearly wasn't his first read. Cruz, I think, was the only WR who didn't get jammed and it could have even been an option route as far as we know. Whatever it was him and Eli were on the same page.

If you watch the play again you'll notice the WR at the bottom (I think it's Nicks) is actually running a slant which was covered well, but it would have been the minimal 3-5 yard gain that would give the armchair OC's self gratification. So don't just assume the play was 'down field or nothing'.

BeatYale
09-17-2012, 01:22 PM
Its either throw the ball 30+ yards or the shotgun draw play. Those are KGs only 2 play calls and Eli can audible to either one depending on what he sees. I just for the life of me cant understand why we have no quick slants or bubble screen plays that work. Easy throws that can go a long way on a miss tackle, but at least get a first on a 3rd and short.

Didn't Nicks catch a few slants during the game?

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 01:26 PM
Its either throw the ball 30+ yards or the shotgun draw play. Those are KGs only 2 play calls and Eli can audible to either one depending on what he sees. I just for the life of me cant understand why we have no quick slants or bubble screen plays that work. Easy throws that can go a long way on a miss tackle, but at least get a first on a 3rd and short.

did you not see Nicks catching slants yesterday ?

each one moved the chains

Drez
09-17-2012, 01:28 PM
Yeah, but it's one thing to pass a high percentage play and another to go deep.
Not if you see your WR completely toast the DB. That was a 40 yard handoff, especially considering that Eli is one of the most accurate deep ball passers in the NFL.

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 01:30 PM
How exactly do you guys know for a fact that KG planned a bomb down field? Eli's the one who makes the reads and decides where to go with the ball, and on that play Cruz clearly wasn't his first read. Cruz, I think, was the only WR who didn't get jammed and it could have even been an option route as far as we know. Whatever it was him and Eli were on the same page.

If you watch the play again you'll notice the WR at the bottom (I think it's Nicks) is actually running a slant which was covered well, but it would have been the minimal 3-5 yard gain that would give the armchair OC's self gratification. So don't just assume the play was 'down field or nothing'.

it is nothing but extremely silly for anyone to think Gilbride decides where the ball goes

there are plays designed to go to certain guys....but the coverage doesn't always allow what the design intended

that play was not designed to go to Cruz

I have not looked at the coaches film yet....I will later on tonight....but I can almost promise you that was the same play that Eli connected with Nicks on those slants earlier in the game .........but as the players said in post game ....the discussed that if they saw a certain coverage Cruz was going to run right past the DB.

Cruz had sat on that very route earlier in the game a couple times.....the DB thought he would sit again and he ran right past him.....the safety was too far off and Eli took the one on one that Cruz had beat

I see crying all over these boards all the time.....we don't make adjustments we don't make adjustments

there you go.......an adjustment

for the last time people.......Gilbride does not decide who the ball gets thrown to

my goodness

GameTime
09-17-2012, 01:31 PM
I will analyze this like every decision on the MB is analyzed:

It worked so it was a great decision and KG is a genius. If it did not work then it would have been a horrendous decision and KG would be an idiot.
I hear you but Eli has more than one choice and that was the read he went with.

Drez
09-17-2012, 01:32 PM
I hear you but Eli has more than one choice and that was the read he went with.
Because it was the best read.

TrueBlue@NYC
09-17-2012, 01:34 PM
did you not see Nicks catching slants yesterday ?

each one moved the chains

Yep, we ran a bunch of quick pass plays, especially early in the game. Actually, that's partly why Eli threw the 3 picks. TB was blitzing and sitting on the quick throws expecting Eli to following the logical progression of getting the ball out fast. And it worked. Second half Eli held the ball a little longer and they challenged downfield.

That's one of those second half adjustments that people of these boards say we never make.

burier
09-17-2012, 01:59 PM
how often have we been able to gaint just 2 yards in short yardage situation lately?? There I think you have your answer now.

/thread

gumby74
09-17-2012, 02:12 PM
Not if you see your WR completely toast the DB. That was a 40 yard handoff, especially considering that Eli is one of the most accurate deep ball passers in the NFL.

He was open, but it wasn't exactly busted coverage wide open. The %'s of completing a shorter throw is still many times higher than a deep one. You can be Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady but on a deep ball, usually it's still up to the WRs to make a play. If you're open on the shorter routes - hell I can make those catches.

Drez
09-17-2012, 02:25 PM
He was open, but it wasn't exactly busted coverage wide open. The %'s of completing a shorter throw is still many times higher than a deep one. You can be Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady but on a deep ball, usually it's still up to the WRs to make a play. If you're open on the shorter routes - hell I can make those catches.
He didn't have a DB within 10 yards of him. That was completely busted coverage.

gumby74
09-17-2012, 02:27 PM
He didn't have a DB within 10 yards of him. That was completely busted coverage. Oh was he? I'm thinking of a different play then. Maybe in that scenario, but in general, the shorter pass is the higher percentage play.

Drez
09-17-2012, 03:06 PM
Oh was he? I'm thinking of a different play then. Maybe in that scenario, but in general, the shorter pass is the higher percentage play.

I'm thinking this is the 80 yard TD pass to Cruz.

10 yards is a bit of an exaggeration, but he had a good 4 or 5 yards on Barber, because Barber thought Cruz was going to run a curl. But, he was WIDE open.

In general, yes, try for the higher percentage play, but you just can't do that when you have a receiver streaking free like Cruz was on that play.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu302TDymwU

Roosevelt
09-17-2012, 03:11 PM
How exactly do you guys know for a fact that KG planned a bomb down field? Eli's the one who makes the reads and decides where to go with the ball, and on that play Cruz clearly wasn't his first read. Cruz, I think, was the only WR who didn't get jammed and it could have even been an option route as far as we know. Whatever it was him and Eli were on the same page.

If you watch the play again you'll notice the WR at the bottom (I think it's Nicks) is actually running a slant which was covered well, but it would have been the minimal 3-5 yard gain that would give the armchair OC's self gratification. So don't just assume the play was 'down field or nothing'.

Who said that?

I would have felt more comfortable had Eli thrown it to Nicks.

BeatYale
09-17-2012, 04:44 PM
Who said that?

I would have felt more comfortable had Eli thrown it to Nicks.

It's what the complaining sounds like. As if people feel the play that was dialed up by KG was to only go down field.

It was tightly covered though, why would you feel more comfortable with him throwing it to Nicks when Cruz was open down field? Just because we need 2 yards for a first down doesn't mean the shortest route is the right route. There's nothing wrong with taking what the defense gives you.

BrianK01
09-17-2012, 05:03 PM
It's what the complaining sounds like. As if people feel the play that was dialed up by KG was to only go down field.

It was tightly covered though, why would you feel more comfortable with him throwing it to Nicks when Cruz was open down field? Just because we need 2 yards for a first down doesn't mean the shortest route is the right route. There's nothing wrong with taking what the defense gives you.
This. Cruz was WTFO. When your receiver is THAT OPEN and your QB THAT GOOD at throwing the deep ball how can you not take that play?????
Might as well stay home if you you don't have the faith in two of your best players to make a fairly routine throw and catch....

gumby74
09-17-2012, 05:05 PM
I'm thinking this is the 80 yard TD pass to Cruz.

10 yards is a bit of an exaggeration, but he had a good 4 or 5 yards on Barber, because Barber thought Cruz was going to run a curl. But, he was WIDE open.

In general, yes, try for the higher percentage play, but you just can't do that when you have a receiver streaking free like Cruz was on that play.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu302TDymwU

Well, let's put it this way. If there was a WR similarly as open say 5 yards in front of Eli. imo, it was pretty stupid to take a risk downfield. Much larger margin for error. If it puts too much loft on the ball, someone could go in and tip it away. When the throw is a mere 5 yards. It's pretty hard to screw up.

PRGiant
09-17-2012, 06:38 PM
How does running out the clock when you're behind help? If we had a more consistent running game then you can question this kind of call but I'm fine with it, even when it's an incomplete pass...

PRGiant
09-17-2012, 06:40 PM
I don't necessarily think we should have run it on 3rd and 2. I just think we should have played it safe and moved the chains with a short "easy" pass.
Short Easy passes are what the defense tries to take away in that situation...

YATittle1962
09-17-2012, 06:46 PM
Well, let's put it this way. If there was a WR similarly as open say 5 yards in front of Eli. imo, it was pretty stupid to take a risk downfield. Much larger margin for error. If it puts too much loft on the ball, someone could go in and tip it away. When the throw is a mere 5 yards. It's pretty hard to screw up.

watch the play

Nicks is open on the same slant he and Eli had been connecting on all day

Eli and Cruz both saw a coverage they had previously discussed that they would adjust to a certain way

they got what they wanted and took it

it would not have mattered if it was 1st and 10, 2nd and 1, or 3rd and 2........when they get what they were looking for they are going to take it

slipknottin
09-17-2012, 06:49 PM
The reason for going for a bomb on 3rd and short is because the DBs generally hard squat at or near the first down marker.

The probability for a long play over the top is much greater on 3rd and short.

yoeddy
09-17-2012, 06:50 PM
Well, let's put it this way. If there was a WR similarly as open say 5 yards in front of Eli. imo, it was pretty stupid to take a risk downfield. Much larger margin for error. If it puts too much loft on the ball, someone could go in and tip it away. When the throw is a mere 5 yards. It's pretty hard to screw up.

Sounds like you think Eli is no better than Romo...

appodictic
09-17-2012, 06:54 PM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?

My friend asked me right before the play, run it or throw. I said "Throw the bomb" Those chumps had not stopped Nicks or cruz all night. Once the refs caught onto what a holding penalty was every throw to nicks would have been a TD.

scoopscj
09-17-2012, 07:02 PM
In my personal life I'm very conservitive and I would run the ball and go for the first down. But since I'm not the coach, nor a 2 time SB winning MVP QB of one of the largest most successful franchises in the NFL, I'll just STFU. I am constantly reminded lately of how little football I really know. The Giants won 2 Super Bowls recently and all my yelling and anxiety about this game is pretty meaningless. I'm too old to second guess these professionals. I'll still get frustrated and shake my head, but as a fan, I can't really ask for more. The Giants of this era have earned the right to do whatever the heck they want. I'll sit back, watch, and smile. They lose?... I'll be upset but really, after the two magical runs, what more can you ask for? I bleed red and blue. I just would like, just once in a while, for them to win a game where I don't have too much stress. Is that too much to ask?

Scoops

BeatYale
09-17-2012, 07:06 PM
In my personal life I'm very conservitive and I would run the ball and go for the first down. But since I'm not the coach, nor a 2 time SB winning MVP QB of one of the largest most successful franchises in the NFL, I'll just STFU. I am constantly reminded lately of how little football I really know. The Giants won 2 Super Bowls recently and all my yelling and anxiety about this game is pretty meaningless. I'm too old to second guess these professionals. I'll still get frustrated and shake my head, but as a fan, I can't really ask for more. The Giants of this era have earned the right to do whatever the heck they want. I'll sit back, watch, and smile. They lose?... I'll be upset but really, after the two magical runs, what more can you ask for? I bleed red and blue. I just would like, just once in a while, for them to win a game where I don't have too much stress. Is that too much to ask?

Scoops

lol understandable. I think Coughlin would rather the team be able to get 2 yards on the ground in short yardage situations, but sadly, we have been a terrible short yardage team over the years. Even when we lead the league in rushing that one season, we still weren't able to consistently run whenever we needed. A lot of it was numerous big runs that padded our average.

Drez
09-17-2012, 07:58 PM
Well, let's put it this way. If there was a WR similarly as open say 5 yards in front of Eli. imo, it was pretty stupid to take a risk downfield. Much larger margin for error. If it puts too much loft on the ball, someone could go in and tip it away. When the throw is a mere 5 yards. It's pretty hard to screw up.

This was the best read on this play. If Cruz was similarly open and another receiver was also similarly open (without the clear TD possibility), then Cruz would have still been the right choice, if for nothing else than Cruz was behind the entire defense.

Now, if Tampa had a deep safety on that side of the field where Cruz would have gotten hit shortly after the pass, then the guy 5 yards downfield is probably the better read. But, a ball can just as easily get batted at the line and picked off (or just incomplete

Weren't 2 of Eli's picks yesterday on throws less than 10 yards downfield?

However, on this particular play the best option was Cruz.

appodictic
09-17-2012, 11:17 PM
Borat Voice: You have to have big ...how you say... arm? no Ham....Hamm... to be quarterback of giants new york footballs .... Very nice!

Marvelousmik
09-17-2012, 11:53 PM
stupid football that worked. but hey, i'm not complaining - this week. But still, stupid.

i agree. We have the best offensive line in the NFL. Why not pound the ball and play smash mouth football? Its not like we have trouble running the ball.

appodictic
09-17-2012, 11:57 PM
In that situation, If you would have thrown short, then your not Eli manning.

gumby74
09-17-2012, 11:59 PM
i agree. We have the best offensive line in the NFL. Why not pound the ball and play smash mouth football? Its not like we have trouble running the ball. No one is saying run the ball. Just that if you're going to throw the ball, throw the ball using a higher percentage (ie a shorter pass) play.

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 12:00 AM
lmfao r ppl trying to say that was like a bad play hahaha my god

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 12:01 AM
some one make sure to tell eli not to throw a td on 3rd and 2 next time and make sure he only throw it 5 yds...wow. it was a great play that perhaps got us moving. do that every time on 3rd down n short if u can pls

joemorrisforprez
09-18-2012, 12:02 AM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?

I'm guessing it was 2 down territory, and maybe Eli saw Ronde with man coverage on Cruz and just couldn't resist.

Marvelousmik
09-18-2012, 12:08 AM
No one is saying run the ball. Just that if you're going to throw the ball, throw the ball using a higher percentage (ie a shorter pass) play.

You're right. Defenses wont expect a short pass on 3rd and 2.



Let me educate you a little bit. Football is 90% mental. It is basically a chess game between the coaches and players.You cant play predictable and throw slants and short passes all game. If its 3rd and 2, then the defense is going to be obviously looking for the short pass. Just because its a short pass play it doesnt mean the percentage of you getting the first down is greater. If you were to look back at the game, you will see that barber was anticipating cruz to slant into the middle of the field for a short pass. Because he anticipated it wrong, cruz was able to beat him deep. The announcer even called it out. Great play call. You are not an NFL coach or any where near that level of understanding. You no nothing about the game on a high level. If i sound like an a hole right now you have to excuse me. I am just tired of the constant critizing of everything our coaches do, especially if they do it right.

Marvelousmik
09-18-2012, 12:11 AM
lmfao r ppl trying to say that was like a bad play hahaha my god

its sad how people can complain about everything. next thing you know people are going to complain about the david tyree pass, and why Eli threw it high over the middle.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 12:14 AM
lmfao r ppl trying to say that was like a bad play hahaha my god

Try not to be an *** if you can.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 12:17 AM
its sad how people can complain about everything. next thing you know people are going to complain about the david tyree pass, and why Eli threw it high over the middle.

Sad is a lack of comprehension skills.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 12:18 AM
You're right. Defenses wont expect a short pass on 3rd and 2.



Let me educate you a little bit. Football is 90% mental. It is basically a chess game between the coaches and players.You cant play predictable and throw slants and short passes all game. If its 3rd and 2, then the defense is going to be obviously looking for the short pass. Just because its a short pass play it doesnt mean the percentage of you getting the first down is greater. If you were to look back at the game, you will see that barber was anticipating cruz to slant into the middle of the field for a short pass. Because he anticipated it wrong, cruz was able to beat him deep. The announcer even called it out. Great play call. You are not an NFL coach or any where near that level of understanding. You no nothing about the game on a high level. If i sound like an a hole right now you have to excuse me. I am just tired of the constant critizing of everything our coaches do, especially if they do it right.

Nice Einstein.

Marvelousmik
09-18-2012, 12:27 AM
Nice Einstein.

I'm just using logic. On 3rd and 2 you can either run it or throw a quick pass play. Well, if you choose to play predictable.

jax5338
09-18-2012, 12:33 AM
considering the usual playcall is a run up the middle that ends up failing, i like taking the shot downfield and it pays off. cruz was wide open and it was a huge play.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 12:34 AM
I'm just using logic. On 3rd and 2 you can either run it or throw a quick pass play. Well, if you choose to play predictable.


As I stated, we all know what the defense would be inclined to defend. This post is about the percentages.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 12:35 AM
considering the usual playcall is a run up the middle that ends up failing, i like taking the shot downfield and it pays off. cruz was wide open and it was a huge play.

Yeah, but you're a homer so it doesn't count. ;)

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 12:38 AM
If i sound like an a hole right now you have to excuse me. I am just tired of the constant critizing of everything our coaches do, especially if they do it right.

This has nothing to do with our coaches and everything to do with Eli.

It was pure balls out. But was it smart?

Marvelousmik
09-18-2012, 12:44 AM
This has nothing to do with our coaches and everything to do with Eli.

It was pure balls out. But was it smart?

Let me ask you this. With this offensive line, when was the last time we were able to pound the ball for a first down on 3rd and short?

fansince69
09-18-2012, 12:48 AM
Let me ask you this. With this offensive line, when was the last time we were able to pound the ball for a first down on 3rd and short?

I can't say for sure but it seems like forever.....and its been even longer since I was confident we would do it most of the time

Marvelousmik
09-18-2012, 01:07 AM
As I stated, we all know what the defense would be inclined to defend. This post is about the percentages.

How do you know eli didnt see a weakness in the defense from studying film all week? they had 11 days to prepare for the game. You dont truly know the percentages of each play. if a defense is looking for a certain play then the percentages of suceeding with that play drops.

This is just an example. If there are 7 people in the box on a 3rd and 2, and you know you have a 1on1 match up with nicks on the outside with the defender playing bump and run, does it necessarily mean running the ball gives you a better chance at getting the first down?

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:11 AM
This has nothing to do with our coaches and everything to do with Eli.

It was pure balls out. But was it smart?
Yes, it was smart. Cruz was WIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE open and a TD was nearly guaranteed. Down by 2 scores with under 7 minutes left, we needed a quick strike. Eli knew Ronde was going to sit on the curl route and that Cruz was going to be able to get around him. Considering how accurate of a deep passer Eli is, that was pretty much a 40 yard hand off.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 01:14 AM
Let me ask you this. With this offensive line, when was the last time we were able to pound the ball for a first down on 3rd and short?

Seriously?

2nd quarter 3rd and 1. Brown goes over left guard for the first.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 01:17 AM
Yes, it was smart. Cruz was WIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE open and a TD was nearly guaranteed. Down by 2 scores with under 7 minutes left, we needed a quick strike. Eli knew Ronde was going to sit on the curl route and that Cruz was going to be able to get around him. Considering how accurate of a deep passer Eli is, that was pretty much a 40 yard hand off.

Sorry man but that's garbage

BlueSanta
09-18-2012, 01:17 AM
Seriously?

2nd quarter 3rd and 1. Brown goes over left guard for the first.

I would add that we did pretty well on the 2 point conversion as well pounding it right up the middle.

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 01:18 AM
Yes, it was smart. Cruz was WIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE open and a TD was nearly guaranteed. Down by 2 scores with under 7 minutes left, we needed a quick strike. Eli knew Ronde was going to sit on the curl route and that Cruz was going to be able to get around him. Considering how accurate of a deep passer Eli is, that was pretty much a 40 yard hand off.

exactly. but its already over. i called eli, and told him "next time, dont throw the pass u did to cruz when we scored an 80 yd td bc it was 3rd and 2 and we must make sure we can get a 1rst down so we can hope to eventually score. Go with the high % 5 yd pass even if cruz is WIDE OPEN on a go route for an easy td that gets us within a score."

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 01:21 AM
Sorry man but that's garbage
im sorry man but i think its complete garbage to have any criticism of that play whatsoever. and there has been a lot of critiquing it for some reason. do u understand that we all know as much football as u? we understand it was 3rd and short. eli understands that more than any of us. cruz was wide open. it was a brilliant play call that honestly id like to see more of. why? bc when teams study our short yardage plays, they'll see us going deep for an 80 yd td. THATS the kinda thing that actually opens up the run play on 3rd n short.
if cruz had anyone near him, yeah, i could understand somewhat. like if it was a deflected pass or something. IT WAS A PERFECT CLEAN PITCH AND CATCH untouched until the goal line. perfect decision. absolutely nothing anyone should say..."its ok-this week." and saying that the better choice is the short throw...lol CRUZ WAS WIDE OPEN. does that register to u?

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 01:24 AM
IF and WHEN cruz is covered in that kinda situation, i have zero doubt eli makes the proper read and throws to the open guy. eli throws short of the sticks on 3rd if thats the only choice. he's good like that. he didnt force that pass to cruz AT ALL, he was WIDE OPEN

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 01:26 AM
and if u cant trust ur 100 mil qb to make that throw on 3rd and 2 then the wrong qb or wrong fan is in place. i fully trust eli to make that throw if he feels its best. in THAT specific situation, crz may very well be the high % option. im just saying, eli doesnt need lessons from anyone here on 3rd and 2s lol.
also, know rosie loved that TD to nicks on the offsides where he went downfield on the free play...i believe its bc eli saw the flag and knew it was called opposed vs dallas when he hit cruz on the short throw high % play go figure

BlueSanta
09-18-2012, 01:28 AM
Last year there was an article on this topic. The Giants offense is designed to take what the defense gives. This is an oversimplification of an example, but if they stack the box vs the run, we will pass it. On 3rd and 2 a lot of teams play guys up closer to the 1st down markers leaving the big play over the top open. This is what happened with Cruz. It is also why we have seen it before.

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:34 AM
Sorry man but that's garbage
How is it garbage?

Cruz was wide open. It was the smart play.

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:37 AM
I would add that we did pretty well on the 2 point conversion as well pounding it right up the middle.

That's all true, but over the past couple of seasons we haven't been too adroit in short yardage running situations.

Marvelousmik
09-18-2012, 02:18 AM
Seriously?

2nd quarter 3rd and 1. Brown goes over left guard for the first.

and how many times has it failed? I also saw that you dodged my other point.

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 02:22 AM
part of being a potent offense is being quick strike where u can literally score from anywhere on the field at any time in any situation. we're a big play offense, doesnt matter if its 1 2 3 or 4 down

BlueSanta
09-18-2012, 04:58 AM
That's all true, but over the past couple of seasons we haven't been too adroit in short yardage running situations.

oh absolutely I agree. Recently, it has been painful to watch us in short yardage situations. Hopefully, the improvement we saw this week isnt a short term thing.

Captain Chaos
09-18-2012, 05:52 AM
Aren't you in 4 down territory, if you miss you still have one more down to do something.

Drez
09-18-2012, 10:29 AM
oh absolutely I agree. Recently, it has been painful to watch us in short yardage situations. Hopefully, the improvement we saw this week isnt a short term thing.
Indeed. Wouldn't that be nice?!!! lol

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 10:35 AM
How is it garbage?

Cruz was wide open. It was the smart play.

Equating the degree of difficulty on a long pass to a run.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 10:39 AM
Aren't you in 4 down territory, if you miss you still have one more down to do something.

I would think so, and you are on your own 19.

Drez
09-18-2012, 10:40 AM
Equating the degree of difficulty on a long pass to a run.

With as open as Cruz was, it wasn't a difficult pass for an elite NFL QB. Hell, for not even an average QB. But, either way, it was a slight hyperbole to accentuate the point I was making that it was the right decision on that play.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 10:43 AM
You're right. Defenses wont expect a short pass on 3rd and 2.



Let me educate you a little bit. Football is 90% mental. It is basically a chess game between the coaches and players.You cant play predictable and throw slants and short passes all game. If its 3rd and 2, then the defense is going to be obviously looking for the short pass. Just because its a short pass play it doesnt mean the percentage of you getting the first down is greater. If you were to look back at the game, you will see that barber was anticipating cruz to slant into the middle of the field for a short pass. Because he anticipated it wrong, cruz was able to beat him deep. The announcer even called it out. Great play call. You are not an NFL coach or any where near that level of understanding. You no nothing about the game on a high level. If i sound like an a hole right now you have to excuse me. I am just tired of the constant critizing of everything our coaches do, especially if they do it right.

Dude. It's very simple. If it's 3rd and 2, and both WRs are open in both the short and the long passing options, the higher percentage play is the best one. Period.

This isn't about misdirection, or mental games, or whatever. Assume both WR on short and long route were open. If you need to move the chains and the game is on the line, you take the highest percentage option. This doesn't just apply to football either.

And seriously. Football is NOT that hard to grasp. It's not rocket science.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 10:48 AM
and how many times has it failed? I also saw that you dodged my other point.

What other point?

gumby74
09-18-2012, 10:52 AM
People are getting way too defensive over this. All Rosie was trying to say that % wise, it may not have been the best decision as long passes have a lower success rate that shorter passes/ maybe runs. That's it. All of a sudden, people start talking how football is a mental game, how they trust our elite qb to make the right decision, what the defense expects, and all sorts of other stuff. However, you want to slice it, making a long pass play has a lower success rate than a shorter one - given that WRs are open in both routes.

No one is criticizing anything. We're all happy it worked, but from a pure decision making point of view, it might not have been the best.

Good lord.

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 10:54 AM
Dude. It's very simple. If it's 3rd and 2, and both WRs are open in both the short and the long passing options, the higher percentage play is the best one. Period.

This isn't about misdirection, or mental games, or whatever. Assume both WR on short and long route were open. If you need to move the chains and the game is on the line, you take the highest percentage option. This doesn't just apply to football either.

And seriously. Football is NOT that hard to grasp. It's not rocket science.

You are assuming that the short route is always the better play because of percentagesp, but on Sunday, Cruz was catching everything thrown his way, so I'm sure Eli had every confidence in his ability to make the play. IMHO, relying solely on higher and lower percentages to decide where to go with the ball is akin to comparing football to rocket science. Don't forget the intangibles: confidence, trust, who's got the hot hand, etc.. That's what makes the game great.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 10:57 AM
safe plays have a higher % of moving the chains. Big plays and successful gambles change the complection of games. Who's to say if the Giants get a first down there on short pass they go on to score a TD and in what time frame?? Hey...I was screaming "no..go for the first down...." then Cruz is under it wide open.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 10:58 AM
With as open as Cruz was, it wasn't a difficult pass for an elite NFL QB. Hell, for not even an average QB. But, either way, it was a slight hyperbole to accentuate the point I was making that it was the right decision on that play.

Let's remember though, that we've failed at this a number of times.


And furthermore it's no different than throwing it 2 yards into coverage on a 3rd and long. We all know that there's a small percentage that our back or receiver could break free and get a first. But I'd rather we take a legitimate shot (and miss) than to dump it off and end up with a 4th and 4.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 10:59 AM
People are getting way too defensive over this. All Rosie was trying to say that % wise, it may not have been the best decision as long passes have a lower success rate that shorter passes/ maybe runs. That's it. All of a sudden, people start talking how football is a mental game, how they trust our elite qb to make the right decision, what the defense expects, and all sorts of other stuff. However, you want to slice it, making a long pass play has a lower success rate than a shorter one - given that WRs are open in both routes.

No one is criticizing anything. We're all happy it worked, but from a pure decision making point of view, it might not have been the best.

Good lord.

Thank you.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 11:02 AM
With as open as Cruz was, it wasn't a difficult pass for an elite NFL QB. Hell, for not even an average QB. But, either way, it was a slight hyperbole to accentuate the point I was making that it was the right decision on that play. I can't say how open the shorter routes where. But, if everywhere was covered except the deep route, then I can see why that might have been the best play. But from a very objective point of view, if both routes were open, the higher % play was the better option. Given how critical a first down was at that juncture of the game, I think it's common sense that it was the best play.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 11:07 AM
You are assuming that the short route is always the better play because of percentagesp, but on Sunday, Cruz was catching everything thrown his way, so I'm sure Eli had every confidence in his ability to make the play. IMHO, relying solely on higher and lower percentages to decide where to go with the ball is akin to comparing football to rocket science. Don't forget the intangibles: confidence, trust, who's got the hot hand, etc.. That's what makes the game great.

Good point. And I'm not taking away from the fact that there are other components to football. But the basic premise of the post was asking everyone to take a step back and think - even though that the outcome was great, was it really the best decision? It wasn't a statement but more a question.

Unfortunately, some are unable to do that and flipped their ****.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 11:12 AM
im sorry man but i think its complete garbage to have any criticism of that play whatsoever. and there has been a lot of critiquing it for some reason. do u understand that we all know as much football as u? we understand it was 3rd and short. eli understands that more than any of us. cruz was wide open. it was a brilliant play call that honestly id like to see more of. why? bc when teams study our short yardage plays, they'll see us going deep for an 80 yd td. THATS the kinda thing that actually opens up the run play on 3rd n short.
if cruz had anyone near him, yeah, i could understand somewhat. like if it was a deflected pass or something. IT WAS A PERFECT CLEAN PITCH AND CATCH untouched until the goal line. perfect decision. absolutely nothing anyone should say..."its ok-this week." and saying that the better choice is the short throw...lol CRUZ WAS WIDE OPEN. does that register to u?

Maybe it's best if you keep to the sidelines on this because you are too emotionally attached to Eli and equate any critique or criticism of the Giants offense to a personal attack against him.

So while your all pumped up defending Eli, answer me this. Is there any chance Cruz might drop a pass?

Drez
09-18-2012, 12:11 PM
Let's remember though, that we've failed at this a number of times.


And furthermore it's no different than throwing it 2 yards into coverage on a 3rd and long. We all know that there's a small percentage that our back or receiver could break free and get a first. But I'd rather we take a legitimate shot (and miss) than to dump it off and end up with a 4th and 4.
Actually, in this case it's completely different than throwing a short pass on 3rd and long. In that scenario there will be plenty of defenders that may be able to make a stop. On this particular play Cruz was wide open with nothing but green between him and 6 points.

The safest play is not always the best play.

Drez
09-18-2012, 12:11 PM
Is there any chance Cruz might drop a pass? The same chance the guy on the shorter route has.

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 12:23 PM
I can't say how open the shorter routes where. But, if everywhere was covered except the deep route, then I can see why that might have been the best play. But from a very objective point of view, if both routes were open, the higher % play was the better option. Given how critical a first down was at that juncture of the game, I think it's common sense that it was the best play.

oh ok. my bad. i thought u two were talking about reality, not this made up situations in ur mind. my bad shoulda known better

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 12:27 PM
Maybe it's best if you keep to the sidelines on this because you are too emotionally attached to Eli and equate any critique or criticism of the Giants offense to a personal attack against him.

So while your all pumped up defending Eli, answer me this. Is there any chance Cruz might drop a pass?

huh? u and gumby are creating situations so u can defend ur premise "that wasnt the best decision he should have thrown it short"...maybe u should sit this one out. u do realize for pages now u've been telling us all how it was this low % play with the game on the line...when in REALITY, cruz was wide open. eli knows what to do on 3rd and 2s he understands %'s 1000000x more than any of us. as was stated by countless people, that play was discussed with eli n cruz about what to do if barber sat down on his route.
we r a big play offense. bc it became 3rd and 2, doesnt suddenly change who we are. brilliant play call, PERFECT decsion by eli. and i hope we see more of that on 3rd and shorts bc those kinda shots, even if missed, keeps a d much mre honest and actually makes running on those 3rd and shrts much easier. i addressed every point the bottom of the previous page. refer to that if u have ne more statements

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 12:29 PM
IF and WHEN cruz is covered in that kinda situation, i have zero doubt eli makes the proper read and throws to the open guy. eli throws short of the sticks on 3rd if thats the only choice. he's good like that. he didnt force that pass to cruz AT ALL, he was WIDE OPEN


and if u cant trust ur 100 mil qb to make that throw on 3rd and 2 then the wrong qb or wrong fan is in place. i fully trust eli to make that throw if he feels its best. in THAT specific situation, crz may very well be the high % option. im just saying, eli doesnt need lessons from anyone here on 3rd and 2s lol.
also, know rosie loved that TD to nicks on the offsides where he went downfield on the free play...i believe its bc eli saw the flag and knew it was called opposed vs dallas when he hit cruz on the short throw high % play go figure


Last year there was an article on this topic. The Giants offense is designed to take what the defense gives. This is an oversimplification of an example, but if they stack the box vs the run, we will pass it. On 3rd and 2 a lot of teams play guys up closer to the 1st down markers leaving the big play over the top open. This is what happened with Cruz. It is also why we have seen it before.

fyi

FBomb
09-18-2012, 12:34 PM
I haven't read the responses to the op, but I gotta think it's been said several times already............it's Eli's call and it's all about match ups.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 12:39 PM
I haven't read the responses to the op, but I gotta think it's been said several times already............it's Eli's call and it's all about match ups.
117 replies on this topic and you have audacity to simplify it with logic in just one lousy sentence.....

FBomb
09-18-2012, 12:47 PM
117 replies on this topic and you have audacity to simplify it with logic in just one lousy sentence.....


Sorry..:( Next time I will try and be more like myself... longwinded and condecending.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:03 PM
fyi

How did you take multiple quotes and add it to your post? That's one feature from the old board that I missed. Anyway.

First 2 quotes. This isn't about Eli, so don't make it out to be about him. This also is not a critique. This is merely stating a fact that would get people to think. The fact is that under the same circumstances (an open WR) a shorter throw has a higher success rate than a long one. And yes, this post was a somewhat a theoretical one. No one was defending anything because it was an open ended post. Not all posts need have a strong opinion one way or the other.

You know how announcers always say that if it works it's a great play call, and if it doesn't it's a terrible one? If you think about it, realistically that's a pretty stupid way to think about things. It just makes you wonder. That is all.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:06 PM
oh ok. my bad. i thought u two were talking about reality, not this made up situations in ur mind. my bad shoulda known better

Read the original post a little more carefully and you'd realize that it wasn't a critique just a comment to get people to think twice. We're all happy that it worked, but was the decision really the best one? That's the question. See the rest of my comments above.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 01:17 PM
The same chance the guy on the shorter route has.

I disagree. The likelihood is greater to complete a short pass, and I'm sure statistics would support that.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 01:18 PM
How did you take multiple quotes and add it to your post? That's one feature from the old board that I missed. Anyway.

First 2 quotes. This isn't about Eli, so don't make it out to be about him. This also is not a critique. This is merely stating a fact that would get people to think. The fact is that under the same circumstances (an open WR) a shorter throw has a higher success rate than a long one. And yes, this post was a somewhat a theoretical one. No one was defending anything because it was an open ended post. Not all posts need have a strong opinion one way or the other.

You know how announcers always say that if it works it's a great play call, and if it doesn't it's a terrible one? If you think about it, realistically that's a pretty stupid way to think about things. It just makes you wonder. That is all.

Well, that only works because the majority of the American thinking public will believe anything the TV tells them. Those or us that dare to educate themselves know it's more about execution rather than the playcalling. 98% of the time.

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:22 PM
I disagree. The likelihood is greater to complete a short pass, and I'm sure statistics would support that.You're talking about the receiver's ability to catch the pass, not the QB's ability to deliver it. How far down the field has little bearing on if a receiver is going to catch a pass.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 01:22 PM
Sorry..:( Next time I will try and be more like myself... longwinded and condecending.
the condecending part is always the best stuff.....

GameTime
09-18-2012, 01:23 PM
You're talking about the receiver's ability to catch the pass, not the QB's ability to deliver it. How far down the field has little bearing on if a receiver is going to catch a pass.
so an over the head in stride pass is just as easy as hit you in the numbers 8 yarder???

FBomb
09-18-2012, 01:23 PM
the condecending part is always the best stuff.....

lol...I agree!

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:24 PM
Read the original post a little more carefully and you'd realize that it wasn't a critique just a comment to get people to think twice. We're all happy that it worked, but was the decision really the best one? That's the question. See the rest of my comments above.
Yes, it was the best decision.

Hitting the WIDE open receiver down the field is always a good decision.

What has the better percentage of getting us a win, a 5 yard reception or an 80 yard one?

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:25 PM
so an over the head in stride pass is just as easy as hit you in the numbers 8 yarder???

Not enough to make a difference on the decision to go to the open receiver down the field.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 01:25 PM
Yes, it was the best decision.

Hitting the WIDE open receiver down the field is always a good decision.

What has the better percentage of getting us a win, a 5 yard reception or an 80 yard one?
I agree....big plays and successful gamble plays are usually game changers. Who's to say if the Giants just get the first down there that they even score.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:27 PM
You're talking about the receiver's ability to catch the pass, not the QB's ability to deliver it. How far down the field has little bearing on if a receiver is going to catch a pass.

If you put a tire 40 yards away and a tire 5 yards away. A QB has to throw the football through the tire. I don't care if the QB is a robot. The % of completing a closer throw is always has a higher % of completing. And, if you ask a receiver to catch a ball 40 yards down the field vs 5 yards down the field. The chance of catching the ball given equal circumstances is higher for the short throw.

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:28 PM
I agree....big plays and successful gamble plays are usually game changers. Who's to say if the Giants just get the first down there that they even score.
Exactly. And we were in a spot where we needed to score quickly, not methodically.

Is going deep always the best decision. No. But, on that play it most certainly was. And for that matter, whenever you have a WR running that wide open deep, he's the guy you should try and get the ball to.

Drez
09-18-2012, 01:30 PM
If you put a tire 40 yards away and a tire 5 yards away. A QB has to throw the football through the tire. I don't care if the QB is a robot. The % of completing a closer throw is always has a higher % of completing. And, if you ask a receiver to catch a ball 40 yards down the field vs 5 yards down the field. The chance of catching the ball given equal circumstances is higher for the short throw.
In this particular aspect of the discussion, we are not talking about the ability of the passer to deliver the ball, but the receiver's ability to catch it.

And I say the degree of difficulty of catching those passes are essentially negligible for an NFL receiver.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 01:32 PM
If you put a tire 40 yards away and a tire 5 yards away. A QB has to throw the football through the tire. I don't care if the QB is a robot. The % of completing a closer throw is always has a higher % of completing. And, if you ask a receiver to catch a ball 40 yards down the field vs 5 yards down the field. The chance of catching the ball given equal circumstances is higher for the short throw.
dont forhet as the tire or in this case the WR gets further away the hole gets bigger and there is more wiggle room. Another point is many of the go routes are timed in a way. Eli knows if I hurl it with 4 seconds (for example) Cruz should be under it. And given the lack of pressure by Barber its a becomes a high % play IMO....

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 01:33 PM
huh? u and gumby are creating situations so u can defend ur premise "that wasnt the best decision he should have thrown it short"...maybe u should sit this one out. u do realize for pages now u've been telling us all how it was this low % play with the game on the line...when in REALITY, cruz was wide open. eli knows what to do on 3rd and 2s he understands %'s 1000000x more than any of us. as was stated by countless people, that play was discussed with eli n cruz about what to do if barber sat down on his route.
we r a big play offense. bc it became 3rd and 2, doesnt suddenly change who we are. brilliant play call, PERFECT decsion by eli. and i hope we see more of that on 3rd and shorts bc those kinda shots, even if missed, keeps a d much mre honest and actually makes running on those 3rd and shrts much easier. i addressed every point the bottom of the previous page. refer to that if u have ne more statements

Slow down already. You keep repeating nonsense.

I presented an argument for discussion, albeit I did retract my comment on running the clock, which in that stage of the game made no sense.


3rd and 2
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?





Was it the "stupid football" line that set you off? As if Eli would never make a stupid mistake? How about his 3 picks in the first half?

You're reaction to this thread is comical.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 01:35 PM
If you put a tire 40 yards away and a tire 5 yards away. A QB has to throw the football through the tire. I don't care if the QB is a robot. The % of completing a closer throw is always has a higher % of completing. And, if you ask a receiver to catch a ball 40 yards down the field vs 5 yards down the field. The chance of catching the ball given equal circumstances is higher for the short throw.

Sorry....but the comparison between throwing a pass through the hole of a stationary object vs a live moving target that is able to adjust to the ball is just silly.

We have a fantastic WR's....why limit them? Eli can make the throw.....safe is boring.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 01:35 PM
Exactly. And we were in a spot where we needed to score quickly, not methodically.

Is going deep always the best decision. No. But, on that play it most certainly was. And for that matter, whenever you have a WR running that wide open deep, he's the guy you should try and get the ball to.

This has turned into the most ridiculous discussion. lol.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:37 PM
Yes, it was the best decision.

Hitting the WIDE open receiver down the field is always a good decision.

What has the better percentage of getting us a win, a 5 yard reception or an 80 yard one?

You're talking about all this after knowing the result. Think about the decision before. Let me put this in perspective with a real life scenario.

You only have enough money to last you one more year to pay the bills. After you spend your money though, it is unknown if you'll make enough to make it to next year. However, if you do pay it off for the year, things look pretty good that things will work itself out since you just got a job. You decide to waste all of your money to buy a lottery ticket. You win 20 million dollars and decide to retire a rich man. Was it a smart decision?

But as we all know, football isn't this simple. But a theoretical post like this one is kind of asking the same question as the scenario above.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 01:37 PM
If Victor Cruz was running down field with a tire I'll bet Eli could thread it like a needle!

FBomb
09-18-2012, 01:38 PM
Slow down already. You keep repeating nonsense.

I presented an argument for discussion, albeit I did retract my comment on running the clock, which in that stage of the game made no sense.



Was it the "stupid football" line that set you off? As if Eli would never make a stupid mistake? How about his 3 picks in the first half?

You're reaction to this thread is comical.

Are you new here? 420's reaction to EVERYTHING is comical!!! ;) I've never seen another poster that takes other opinions so personally. Which is aodd that 420 is part of his name......you'd think he'd be more "mello"

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:38 PM
In this particular aspect of the discussion, we are not talking about the ability of the passer to deliver the ball, but the receiver's ability to catch it.

And I say the degree of difficulty of catching those passes are essentially negligible for an NFL receiver.

I can't say I agree with that.

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:39 PM
This has turned into the most ridiculous discussion. lol. Best thread since the last Eli one.

fansince69
09-18-2012, 01:45 PM
Best thread since the last Eli one.

you mean till the next one comes up

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:53 PM
you mean till the next one comes up

Haha. I actually don't foresee many of them. Which is why this msg board, while still an awesome place, isn't nearly as fun as it used to be :)

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 01:56 PM
Are you new here? 420's reaction to EVERYTHING is comical!!! ;) I've never seen another poster that takes other opinions so personally. Which is aodd that 420 is part of his name......you'd think he'd be more "mello"

lol. You know I haven't smoked in a long time, so I was unaware they came out with an argumentative formula. ;)

gumby74
09-18-2012, 01:57 PM
lol. You know I haven't smoked in a long time, so I was unaware they came out with an argumentative formula. ;) Funny thing is I've done other stuff, but I've never smoked up. Ever.

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 02:01 PM
fbomb
im merely stating i disagree with the premise it was in any way a bad decision. and dude, if we go by general perceptions of people on this board, i'd much rather be considered what my bs rep is over urs. fwiw

and gumby-
of course as i said like as i entered, IF we're talking about some hypothetical situation where cruz is covered, do u think eli throws it? see I think eli would throw it to where the opening was. cruz was open. and thats what i found so odd. maybe i misread some posts, it just seemed as if ppl were critiquing el for going deep bc it was 3rd and 2...the reality of it was they designed that play, cruz was wide open, and it was a clean pitch and catch.

for multi quotes, u choose the quotes u wish to use by clicking the addition sign "multi quote" button. when u have chosen the quotes u want, the last quote u want to use, instead of clicking the addition multi quote button, click the reply with quote. the post u clicked reply with quote will show with the other ones u marked. thats only if u dont have enough quotes to get to the response screen by using the multiquote button. i think if u quote 4 by using the multiquote addition sign button, it will auto take u to the type response screen. if ur only quoting like 2 or 3, u use the addition symbol button the first 2, then reply w quote the last one

fansince69
09-18-2012, 02:02 PM
Haha. I actually don't foresee many of them. Which is why this msg board, while still an awesome place, isn't nearly as fun as it used to be :)


I dunno...I have been here since 2005-2006 with a couple of different IDS...although i read much more than I comment........seems to me there are always threads that end up back to some kind of Eli thread.....I don't know if it used to be more fun but its usually interesting....sometimes you just need to step away for few days or more...

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:03 PM
Funny thing is I've done other stuff, but I've never smoked up. Ever.

My friend......you have no idea then. It's magic!!!

fansince69
09-18-2012, 02:04 PM
My friend......you have no idea then. It's magic!!!


wait..... I thought it was mushrooms that were magic

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:06 PM
fbomb
im merely stating i disagree with the premise it was in any way a bad decision. and dude, if we go by general perceptions of people on this board, i'd much rather be considered what my bs rep is over urs. fwiw

and gumby-
of course as i said like as i entered, IF we're talking about some hypothetical situation where cruz is covered, do u think eli throws it? see I think eli would throw it to where the opening was. cruz was open. and thats what i found so odd. maybe i misread some posts, it just seemed as if ppl were critiquing el for going deep bc it was 3rd and 2...the reality of it was they designed that play, cruz was wide open, and it was a clean pitch and catch.

for multi quotes, u choose the quotes u wish to use by clicking the addition sign "multi quote" button. when u have chosen the quotes u want, the last quote u want to use, instead of clicking the addition multi quote button, click the reply with quote. the post u clicked reply with quote will show with the other ones u marked.

See, that's the difference. I don't care what my "rep" is here. You seem to take yours very seriously. I state what I see and believe......some people get it and laugh...others are easily offended so they ***** and moan. Either one works for me. It's all about my entertainment....it's up to you on which role you play.

Helpful advise....learning how to take a joke will make all the difference. Take gumby for instance. You and I agree on WAY MORE things than he and I do. He had I trade goofs all the time.....As far as I know he has never been offended by anything.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:07 PM
wait..... I thought it was mushrooms that were magic

eh.....I like my reality only slightly distorted.

fansince69
09-18-2012, 02:09 PM
eh.....I like my reality only slightly distorted.

just because i've heard the phrase "magic mushrooms" does not mean I partake....I don't even like mushrooms in my food

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:13 PM
just because i've heard the phrase "magic mushrooms" does not mean I partake....I don't even like mushrooms in my food

Truthfully, I never have either. Weed is my only choice outside of a good cold Canadian beer or a little Jager on the weekends. I have never even smoked cigarettes. So much for the "gateway drug"

Delicreep
09-18-2012, 02:15 PM
4th quarter, down by 7 with under 7 minutes to play. 3rd and 2 from our own 19.

Is it gutsy or just plain stupid football?

Yes, we all know what the defense is thinking, BUT, if we don't connect on that 40 yard pass there's a good chance we loose that game.

Why not move the chains, pound the ball and run the clock?

I hate that call more often than not as well, but...

1) their O was stuck in neutral
2) we had mismatches that looked pretty reliable
3) Eli may well have changed the play, seeing something that was worth the chance to exploit.

Hard to say, but had that play not worked, very few of us would have said it was a smart call.

giantsfan420
09-18-2012, 02:15 PM
Today 12:38 PM #140
FBomb
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Join Date
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22,990
Originally Posted by Roosevelt
Slow down already. You keep repeating nonsense.

I presented an argument for discussion, albeit I did retract my comment on running the clock, which in that stage of the game made no sense.



Was it the "stupid football" line that set you off? As if Eli would never make a stupid mistake? How about his 3 picks in the first half?

You're reaction to this thread is comical.
Are you new here? 420's reaction to EVERYTHING is comical!!! I've never seen another poster that takes other opinions so personally. Which is aodd that 420 is part of his name......you'd think he'd be more "mello"

oh im sorry, i took that comment as u making a dig at me along with rosie. i merely presented my opinion, which is that rosies was moronic. not taking anything personal.

and to add, i know in ur world ur this entertainer whose always on. but I, like the other 7 billion people in this world, simply dont care. im not here for ur entertainment. and when someone makes a coment that everythng i do is comical where have u been in response to another poster who has clasically ALWAYS reverted to remarks like "oh ur eli love is comical" bs when in reality, its just his premise is ******ed, Im not gonna thank you for it. really, my point remains, that may be how u and a few others perceive me, but id much rather be mistakingly perceived that way than to be percieved as many here the way you are. over it, this is off topic and personal bs.

fansince69
09-18-2012, 02:16 PM
Truthfully, I never have either. Weed is my only choice outside of a good cold Canadian beer or a little Jager on the weekends. I have never even smoked cigarettes. So much for the "gateway drug"
I have never touched cigs either...must admit many years ago in college I did do alot of experimenting anyway...keep up the good work FBOMB...its entertaining

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:19 PM
Today 12:38 PM #140
FBomb
All-Pro
Join Date
May 2004
Posts
22,990
Originally Posted by Roosevelt
Slow down already. You keep repeating nonsense.

I presented an argument for discussion, albeit I did retract my comment on running the clock, which in that stage of the game made no sense.



Was it the "stupid football" line that set you off? As if Eli would never make a stupid mistake? How about his 3 picks in the first half?

You're reaction to this thread is comical.
Are you new here? 420's reaction to EVERYTHING is comical!!! I've never seen another poster that takes other opinions so personally. Which is aodd that 420 is part of his name......you'd think he'd be more "mello"

oh im sorry, i took that comment as u making a dig at me along with rosie. i merely presented my opinion, which is that rosies was moronic. not taking anything personal.

and to add, i know in ur world ur this entertainer whose always on. but I, like the other 7 billion people in this world, simply dont care. im not here for ur entertainment. and when someone makes a coment that everythng i do is comical where have u been in response to another poster who has clasically ALWAYS reverted to remarks like "oh ur eli love is comical" bs when in reality, its just his premise is ******ed, Im not gonna thank you for it. really, my point remains, that may be how u and a few others perceive me, but id much rather be mistakingly perceived that way than to be percieved as many here the way you are. over it, this is off topic and personal bs.

lol....thanks for proving my point about you. You never cease being a source of entertainment for me. Ever.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:21 PM
I have never touched cigs either...must admit many years ago in college I did do alot of experimenting anyway...keep up the good work FBOMB...its entertaining

:popcorn:

YATittle1962
09-18-2012, 02:22 PM
it really doesn't matter if it is 1st 15.......2nd and 2......3rd and 2......2nd and 5.....3rd and 35.....

if a coverage develops that the players discussed on the sideline and the receiver breaks wide open Eli will take it every single time

Nicks was open for a first down .....Eli took the what coverage dictated

fansince69
09-18-2012, 02:23 PM
:popcorn:

you need this too:beer:...for some reason the beer didn't work...oh well

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:24 PM
it really doesn't matter if it is 1st 15.......2nd and 2......3rd and 2......2nd and 5.....3rd and 35.....

if a coverage develops that the players discussed on the sideline and the receiver breaks wide open Eli will take it every single time

Nicks was open for a first down .....Eli took the what coverage dictated

Yep.....and thank god!!! I'll take THAT QB every time!!!

Drez
09-18-2012, 02:27 PM
it really doesn't matter if it is 1st 15.......2nd and 2......3rd and 2......2nd and 5.....3rd and 35.....

if a coverage develops that the players discussed on the sideline and the receiver breaks wide open Eli will take it every single time

Nicks was open for a first down .....Eli took the what coverage dictated
I keep trying to say that, but it doesn't seem to soak in, lol. It devolved to the point of questioning whether catching a short pass is easier or more difficult than catching a long pass.

When you have a guy that wide open that deep, you take it EVERY time.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 02:46 PM
it really doesn't matter if it is 1st 15.......2nd and 2......3rd and 2......2nd and 5.....3rd and 35.....

if a coverage develops that the players discussed on the sideline and the receiver breaks wide open Eli will take it every single time

Nicks was open for a first down .....Eli took the what coverage dictated

How can you compare 3rd and 35 to 3rd and 2?

IMO circumstances must dictate. One has to look at the big picture.

In 2009 against Philly in the playoffs where we were running it well, we then went to the air (unsuccessfully) on successive plays and we ended up losing.

Obviously this is only week 2, but had we lost this place would have been more crazy than this thread.

YATittle1962
09-18-2012, 02:48 PM
How can you compare 3rd and 35 to 3rd and 2?

IMO circumstances must dictate. One has to look at the big picture.

In 2009 against Philly in the playoffs where we were running it well, we then went to the air (unsuccessfully) on successive plays and we ended up losing.

Obviously this is only week 2, but had we lost this place would have been more crazy than this thread.

I'm not comparing 3rd and 35 to 3rd and 2

I am saying it doesn't matter what down and distance it is when a coverage you are looking for and had just recently discussed on the sideline presents itself

FBomb
09-18-2012, 02:50 PM
How can you compare 3rd and 35 to 3rd and 2?

IMO circumstances must dictate. One has to look at the big picture.

In 2009 against Philly in the playoffs where we were running it well, we then went to the air (unsuccessfully) on successive plays and we ended up losing.

Obviously this is only week 2, but had we lost this place would have been more crazy than this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm going from memory only...but wasn't the passing game eating up the Eagles all game long and it wasn't until we decided to run the clock out that we kept giving them a chance to come back? I remember being pissed that they decided to take their foot off the gas because we had a big lead.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 02:53 PM
I keep trying to say that, but it doesn't seem to soak in, lol. It devolved to the point of questioning whether catching a short pass is easier or more difficult than catching a long pass.

When you have a guy that wide open that deep, you take it EVERY time.

It's really this simple.

All things being the same (except for the result) if we failed to connect on that pass would you be pissed that we went long, instead of looking to move the chains?

I would. You may not.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 02:57 PM
I'm not comparing 3rd and 35 to 3rd and 2

I am saying it doesn't matter what down and distance it is when a coverage you are looking for and had just recently discussed on the sideline presents itself

That makes sense, but no doubt there has to be some risk/reward thinking.

Bill Parcells would have never allowed that. lol.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 02:58 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm going from memory only...but wasn't the passing game eating up the Eagles all game long and it wasn't until we decided to run the clock out that we kept giving them a chance to come back? I remember being pissed that they decided to take their foot off the gas because we had a big lead.

I'm thinking this is a playoff game where it was very windy. I'm going to look it up and see if I can post the sequence of plays...

YATittle1962
09-18-2012, 03:00 PM
That makes sense, but no doubt there has to be some risk/reward thinking.

Bill Parcells would have never allowed that. lol.

total risk reward.....and it is all the QBs decision

I personally love that Eli took a shot and had confidence in his arm

Marvelousmik
09-18-2012, 03:02 PM
Equating the degree of difficulty on a long pass to a run.

How do you know eli didnt see a weakness in the defense from studying film all week? they had 11 days to prepare for the game. You dont truly know the percentages of each play. if a defense is looking for a certain play then the percentages of the offense succeeding in that play drops.

This is just an example. If there are 7 people in the box on a 3rd and 2, and you know you have a 1on1 match up with nicks on the outside with the defender playing bump and run, does it necessarily mean running the ball gives you a better chance at getting the first down just because its 2 yards away?

Basically what im trying to say is, the highest percentage play is the play that counters what the defense is trying to do. There were a few instances where tampa and dallas kept only 7 guys in the box but as soon as we attempted the run, they all committed as if they were expecting it. And they were able to stop us.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 03:04 PM
How do you know eli didnt see a weakness in the defense from studying film all week? they had 11 days to prepare for the game. You dont truly know the percentages of each play. if a defense is looking for a certain play then the percentages of suceeding with that play drops.

This is just an example. If there are 7 people in the box on a 3rd and 2, and you know you have a 1on1 match up with nicks on the outside with the defender playing bump and run, does it necessarily mean running the ball gives you a better chance at getting the first down?
I dont even think you have to get that in depth with it. Cruz 1 on 1 with a 37 year old safety......boom done deal.

Dwinsballgames
09-18-2012, 03:06 PM
I dont even think you have to get that in depth with it. Cruz 1 on 1 with a 37 year old safety......boom done deal.

That pretty much sums it up

YATittle1962
09-18-2012, 03:07 PM
How do you know eli didnt see a weakness in the defense from studying film all week? they had 11 days to prepare for the game. You dont truly know the percentages of each play. if a defense is looking for a certain play then the percentages of suceeding with that play drops.

This is just an example. If there are 7 people in the box on a 3rd and 2, and you know you have a 1on1 match up with nicks on the outside with the defender playing bump and run, does it necessarily mean running the ball gives you a better chance at getting the first down?

it is widely documented that Cruz and Eli discussed that coverage previously on the sideline saying if we see that again and Barber sits just run right past him

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 03:12 PM
total risk reward.....and it is all the QBs decision

I personally love that Eli took a shot and had confidence in his arm


The confidence in great, as long as we are successful.


He has the uncanny ability to take this team down and win games. I don't think I've seen anyone better in the 4th quarter than him.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 03:16 PM
The confidence in great, as long as we are successful.


He has the uncanny ability to take this team down and win games. I don't think I've seen anyone better in the 4th quarter than him.
the team and/or certain players elevate their play along with him in the late stages of the games to get it done as well.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 03:18 PM
How do you know eli didnt see a weakness in the defense from studying film all week? they had 11 days to prepare for the game. You dont truly know the percentages of each play. if a defense is looking for a certain play then the percentages of the offense succeeding in that play drops.

This is just an example. If there are 7 people in the box on a 3rd and 2, and you know you have a 1on1 match up with nicks on the outside with the defender playing bump and run, does it necessarily mean running the ball gives you a better chance at getting the first down just because its 2 yards away?

Basically what im trying to say is, the highest percentage play is the play that counters what the defense is trying to do. There were a few instances where tampa and dallas kept only 7 guys in the box but as soon as we attempted the run, they all committed as if they were expecting it. And they were able to stop us.

I totally understand and agree with that premise which I have stated numerous times.

If it was on 2nd down I would have never brought it up. It's purely based on that particular situation. Down, distance, field location and time left.

But hey, that's just my opinion and one that offered up for discussion. Had we missed it I would have been pissed that we weren't looking to move the chains at the point.

Hell, maybe that's why I'm sitting here, and they are sitting there?

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 03:19 PM
the team and/or certain players elevate their play along with him in the late stages of the games to get it done as well.

It's truly amazing.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 03:25 PM
It's truly amazing.
part of his "Gomer" attitude that so many killed him for.

he gets in the huddle, calls, the play, and gets to work. Keeps everybody calm and confident.
I heard one player say this......another QB and I cant remember who...but something like...."you cant dwell on the fact that its a big game or a big play. Its just another play like any other. Call it and execute it then celebarate after you win".....

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 03:34 PM
part of his "Gomer" attitude that so many killed him for.

he gets in the huddle, calls, the play, and gets to work. Keeps everybody calm and confident.
I heard one player say this......another QB and I cant remember who...but something like...."you cant dwell on the fact that its a big game or a big play. Its just another play like any other. Call it and execute it then celebarate after you win".....

Dion Sanders said something similar. He's like a cornerback. Cornerbacks have to have a short memory.

Drez
09-18-2012, 03:51 PM
It's really this simple.

All things being the same (except for the result) if we failed to connect on that pass would you be pissed that we went long, instead of looking to move the chains?

I would. You may not.
No, I wouldn't have been mad. Well, I would have been mad that it didn't work, but not upset that they went for the deep ball. You have to take that play whenever it presents itself, particularly late in a game that you are losing.

GameTime
09-18-2012, 03:55 PM
part of his "Gomer" attitude that so many killed him for.

he gets in the huddle, calls, the play, and gets to work. Keeps everybody calm and confident.
I heard one player say this......another QB and I cant remember who...but something like...."you cant dwell on the fact that its a big game or a big play. Its just another play like any other. Call it and execute it then celebarate after you win".....
I actually think it was Matt Ryan before the Giants/Falcons playoff game. It was in response to his first playoff appearence.....I think...:confused:

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 04:42 PM
No, I wouldn't have been mad. Well, I would have been mad that it didn't work, but not upset that they went for the deep ball. You have to take that play whenever it presents itself, particularly late in a game that you are losing.

Okay, so how about fake punts - does field position matter? If "it's there" then it shouldn't be a factor with that philosophy.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 04:53 PM
Okay, so how about fake punts - does field position matter? If "it's there" then it shouldn't be a factor with that philosophy.

Fake punts rarely work...Open WR's making a big play downfield happens all the time.

Drez
09-18-2012, 05:04 PM
Okay, so how about fake punts - does field position matter? If "it's there" then it shouldn't be a factor with that philosophy.
Completely different scenario.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 05:10 PM
Fake punts rarely work...Open WR's making a big play downfield happens all the time.

Not as often as short passes.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 05:17 PM
Not as often as short passes.

And WR's making big plays downfield result in TD's way more often than short passes do.

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 05:19 PM
The Giants had an inordinate amount of deep passes on Sunday. More than they've ever have. Francesca commented it was more than some teams have in 4 games. My point being we should act like this is some simple feat.

In contrast Denver did not complete a single deep pass all night.

Don't forget also, we were playing against Bill Sheridan. :eek:

Roosevelt
09-18-2012, 05:21 PM
And WR's making big plays downfield result in TD's way more often than short passes do.

Yes, but we didn't need a touchdown at that particular moment. What we needed on that play was a first down.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 05:29 PM
Yes, but we didn't need a touchdown at that particular moment. What we needed on that play was a first down.

Looks like the defense was thinking the same thing.

fansince69
09-18-2012, 05:33 PM
Fake punts rarely work...Open WR's making a big play downfield happens all the time.

Fake punts rarely work,but they are also rarely used.....the percentage of times successful as compared to times tried I'll bet is a decent percentage....seems like every time I see one which is not often....it works because the time was right

Drez
09-18-2012, 05:58 PM
Yes, but we didn't need a touchdown at that particular moment. What we needed on that play was a first down.
The TD is pure gravy. I will say, though that we did need a quick score on that drive. We were down by 8. Scoring as quickly as we did allowed us more time to overcome a failed 2 point conversion, or even the option to kick the PAT, and still know that there should be time enough to have another possession or two.

However, I still say regardless of the down and distance you always try and hit the wide open receiver down the field when it presents itself.

FBomb
09-18-2012, 05:59 PM
Fake punts rarely work,but they are also rarely used.....the percentage of times successful as compared to times tried I'll bet is a decent percentage....seems like every time I see one which is not often....it works because the time was right

They are rarely used BECAUSE they rarely work. WR's making big plays downfield works A LOT...that's why there are far more attempts.

fansince69
09-18-2012, 06:01 PM
They are rarely used BECAUSE they rarely work. WR's making big plays downfield works A LOT...that's why there are far more attempts.

guess I can't argue with that

slipknottin
09-18-2012, 07:21 PM
Giants offense is not designed to take what the defense gives them. Far from it actually.

Its designed to take the maximum number of yards possible every play.

That play was absolutely what the giants defense strives to do.

Any time they get a corner/safety with a hard squat with no deep support they want to go over the top, doesnt matter what down it is.

Thats the thing people dont realize, because it was 3rd and short was the reason for that opening over the top. With a defense playing the short pass, the deep pass has a HIGHER probability of being successful. And even if they had thrown for lets say 5 yards, and got the first, that in no way means they would continue to drive down the field and score. The same offense had already stalled numerous times in the redzone. You have any opportunity for a down field pass and possible TD you take it. Doesnt matter what down and distance it is.

YATittle1962
09-18-2012, 07:50 PM
Giants offense is not designed to take what the defense gives them. Far from it actually.

Its designed to take the maximum number of yards possible every play.

That play was absolutely what the giants defense strives to do.

Any time they get a corner/safety with a hard squat with no deep support they want to go over the top, doesnt matter what down it is.

Thats the thing people dont realize, because it was 3rd and short was the reason for that opening over the top. With a defense playing the short pass, the deep pass has a HIGHER probability of being successful. And even if they had thrown for lets say 5 yards, and got the first, that in no way means they would continue to drive down the field and score. The same offense had already stalled numerous times in the redzone. You have any opportunity for a down field pass and possible TD you take it. Doesnt matter what down and distance it is.

most spot on response Ive seen yet