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View Full Version : Best point I've heard about the kneel down play.



ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 11:33 AM
While Schiano is trying to spin it that his team plays 60 minutes and it wasn't an unnecessary cheap shot, why is it that he did not use his final timeout to try it again, especially considering it looked like maybe it almost worked? I think that fact alone proves his full of it and made the call based on emotion and not on strategy.

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
Also, now that I'm thinking about it....is there a rule that says the center must hike the ball to another player? I know the ball must move, but what if the center picked the ball up into his gut and surrendered himself to the ground? That could also be a solution to this problem. Though I guess it does put the ball in the middle of the D, you are surrendering yourself all Victor Cruz vs the Cardinals.

ryan12
09-19-2012, 11:45 AM
good point i didnt even think about that.

burier
09-19-2012, 11:45 AM
Shhhhh

We're not allowed to talk about this anymore.

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 11:48 AM
My bad, dog. I thought it was still yesterday. :P

Dwinsballgames
09-19-2012, 11:49 AM
Shhhhh

We're not allowed to talk about this anymore.

I kinda feel that 67 pages was enough, just my $0.02

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 11:50 AM
Also, does anyone else always think of Eli in the courtroom on SNL doing the smiley face/tounge out, wink while describing his texts anytime they use the one I just used?

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 11:51 AM
LOL, if there was really a 67 page thread, my bad. I've been in Maine since last night.

CowboysSuck
09-19-2012, 11:54 AM
Also, now that I'm thinking about it....is there a rule that says the center must hike the ball to another player? I know the ball must move, but what if the center picked the ball up into his gut and surrendered himself to the ground?

Thats a great question, does anyone know the answer???? Im too lazy to google and find this out myself Lol

Roosevelt
09-19-2012, 11:57 AM
While Schiano is trying to spin it that his team plays 60 minutes and it wasn't an unnecessary cheap shot, why is it that he did not use his final timeout to try it again, especially considering it looked like maybe it almost worked? I think that fact alone proves his full of it and made the call based on emotion and not on strategy.

I don't think so. Schiano was trying to use the element of surprise to catch the Giants . The Giants would have been prepared for it after a time out, as will every team that plays them for now on.

burier
09-19-2012, 11:58 AM
I kinda feel that 67 pages was enough, just my $0.02

you're welcome to your opinion but the fact that the thread was locked while it was still active and the fact that this thread now exists kinda speaks to 67 pages not being enough.

Roosevelt
09-19-2012, 11:59 AM
Also, now that I'm thinking about it....is there a rule that says the center must hike the ball to another player? I know the ball must move, but what if the center picked the ball up into his gut and surrendered himself to the ground? That could also be a solution to this problem. Though I guess it does put the ball in the middle of the D, you are surrendering yourself all Victor Cruz vs the Cardinals.


The center must hike the ball.

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 12:00 PM
I don't think so. Schiano was trying to use the element of surprise to catch the Giants . The Giants would have been prepared for it after a time out, as will every team that plays them for now on.That's actually a great counter point that I didn't take into account. I guess that leaves us back to square one! I still side with Coughlin....and not just bc I'm a Giants fan.

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 12:02 PM
The center must hike the ball.I figured that was the case. Sorta makes you question the great Rick Moranas in the classic Little Giants though. His play design is sort of what led me to this idea...

RichardMc
09-19-2012, 12:05 PM
Section 6 Putting the Ball in Play
Article 1: Ball in Play.

The offensive team must put the ball in play with a snap at the spot where the

previous down ended, unless the enforcement of a penalty moves the ball to another spot or the down
ended outside the inbounds lines. If a fair-catch kick is chosen after a fair catch, 10-2-4 and 11-4-3 apply.



Article 4: Legal Snap

A snap is a backward pass. The snap must be received by a player who is not on his
line at the snap, unless the ball first strikes the ground. If the ball first strikes the ground, or is muffed by an
eligible backfield receiver, it can be recovered and advanced by any player.

NorwoodBlue
09-19-2012, 12:24 PM
When leading in week #1 what did Tampa Bay do on the final two plays of the game? Ya, you guessed, they kneeled down. I'm sure Tampa's center and Freeman were both happy when they saw this BS; because now they know what's coming at them next time they try to kneel at the end of a game. I doubt any other team is going to give them a free pass on this, particularly if there are friends of Eli or Baas on that defense.

Schiano found a great way to get somebody injured. And it's also a great way to have a huge fight at the final gun (do they even do that anymore?).

Toadofsteel
09-19-2012, 12:25 PM
Here's something I don't get... why not put in Carr for the victory formation? Or just do a direct snap to a RB or something? Or line up Jernigan in the backfield to take the snap? I'd be worried if this becomes a thing around the league. Honestly, if it does, you'll see backups doing the kneeldown on other teams as well...

I know Eli is the toughest QB playing today, but I still wouldn't want to risk it when you're not even going to run a play to speak of...

Ruttiger711
09-19-2012, 12:39 PM
Section 6 Putting the Ball in Play
Article 1: Ball in Play.

The offensive team must put the ball in play with a snap at the spot where the

previous down ended, unless the enforcement of a penalty moves the ball to another spot or the down
ended outside the inbounds lines. If a fair-catch kick is chosen after a fair catch, 10-2-4 and 11-4-3 apply.



Article 4: Legal Snap

A snap is a backward pass. The snap must be received by a player who is not on his
line at the snap, unless the ball first strikes the ground. If the ball first strikes the ground, or is muffed by an
eligible backfield receiver, it can be recovered and advanced by any player.


It's impossible for me not to read these as sarcasm.

burier
09-19-2012, 12:43 PM
Don't you guys think if you didn't have to snap the ball, the center lifting the ball and falling forward would be the most used short yardage play in football?

burier
09-19-2012, 12:47 PM
you're welcome to your opinion but the fact that the thread was locked while it was still active and the fact that this thread now exists kinda speaks to 67 pages not being enough.

Seriously???

jakegibbs
09-19-2012, 01:03 PM
While Schiano is trying to spin it that his team plays 60 minutes and it wasn't an unnecessary cheap shot, why is it that he did not use his final timeout to try it again, especially considering it looked like maybe it almost worked? I think that fact alone proves his full of it and made the call based on emotion and not on strategy.

The 2011 NFL Rules state in Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1(c): "An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage".[1]


Has this been discussed over the past few days. This should put the whole thing to bed. Even when the QB simulates dropping to his knee the play is dead so even if Eli had the ball knocked out of his grasp while taking a knee the play would have been declared dead. The only chance they being the Bucks would have had would have been to illegally swipe the ball away from the center before the QB exchange which would have been overturned in a replay.

End of story

burier
09-19-2012, 01:07 PM
The 2011 NFL Rules state in Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1(c): "An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended … when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage".[1]


Has this been discussed over the past few days. This should put the whole thing to bed. Even when the QB simulates dropping to his knee the play is dead so even if Eli had the ball knocked out of his grasp while taking a knee the play would have been declared dead. The only chance they being the Bucks would have had would have been to illegally swipe the ball away from the center before the QB exchange which would have been overturned in a replay.

End of story

Seems legit

RoanokeFan
09-19-2012, 01:13 PM
The 2011 NFL Rules state in Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1(c): "An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended … when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage".[1]


Has this been discussed over the past few days. This should put the whole thing to bed. Even when the QB simulates dropping to his knee the play is dead so even if Eli had the ball knocked out of his grasp while taking a knee the play would have been declared dead. The only chance they being the Bucks would have had would have been to illegally swipe the ball away from the center before the QB exchange which would have been overturned in a replay.

End of story

However, in the era of replacement refs, how would that rule have been enforced? Look at the trouble they have with holding calls

KillaRich
09-19-2012, 01:14 PM
That's actually a great counter point that I didn't take into account. I guess that leaves us back to square one! I still side with Coughlin....and not just bc I'm a Giants fan.

Surpise or not still against his own logic..... His main point was going 60 minutes....if that was the case use the timeout and hope for a muffed snap or something..... surprise may be out the window but not the "60" minutes

nygfan90
09-19-2012, 01:18 PM
However, in the era of replacement refs, how would that rule have been enforced? Look at the trouble they have with holding callsTook the words right out of my mouth.

burier
09-19-2012, 01:20 PM
Surpise or not still against his own logic..... His main point was going 60 minutes....if that was the case use the timeout and hope for a muffed snap or something..... surprise may be out the window but not the "60" minutes

Not that agree with what He did but you're definately reaching here. By that logic he should never allow the clock to run down due his 60 minutes statement even if allowing the clock to run would give his team a tactical advantage.

I don't think that's what he meant when he said 60 minutes.

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 01:49 PM
Don't you guys think if you didn't have to snap the ball, the center lifting the ball and falling forward would be the most used short yardage play in football?That's actually a really good point I didn't even consider. Lol that's why we have discussion boards I guess haha.

ImElectric2
09-19-2012, 01:51 PM
The 2011 NFL Rules state in Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1(c): "An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage".[1]Has this been discussed over the past few days. This should put the whole thing to bed. Even when the QB simulates dropping to his knee the play is dead so even if Eli had the ball knocked out of his grasp while taking a knee the play would have been declared dead. The only chance they being the Bucks would have had would have been to illegally swipe the ball away from the center before the QB exchange which would have been overturned in a replay. End of story HAH! That gives even more credence to Coughlin's "you don't do that in this league" because you literally can't do it! Amazing. It seems like Schiano fails at every turn on this one...

burier
09-19-2012, 02:21 PM
HAH! That gives even more credence to Coughlin's "you don't do that in this league" because you literally can't do it! Amazing. It seems like Schiano fails at every turn on this one...

Schiano made himself look like some big floppy clown shoes with that stunt regardless of whatever rules are on the books.

Hows the saying go? When in Rome....

If he was in Singapore he'd be caned.

BParcells777
09-19-2012, 02:24 PM
Schiano did us a big favor...........Coughlin can rant and rant about preparation......that play will drive home the preparation, and mental and physical toughness message far better than any words

NYFG
09-19-2012, 02:48 PM
Surpise or not still against his own logic..... His main point was going 60 minutes....if that was the case use the timeout and hope for a muffed snap or something..... surprise may be out the window but not the "60" minutes

If he really wanted to play for 60 min he would have done the same thing at the end of the first half.

RoanokeFan
09-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Section 6 Putting the Ball in Play
Article 1: Ball in Play.

The offensive team must put the ball in play with a snap at the spot where the

previous down ended, unless the enforcement of a penalty moves the ball to another spot or the down
ended outside the inbounds lines. If a fair-catch kick is chosen after a fair catch, 10-2-4 and 11-4-3 apply.



Article 4: Legal Snap

A snap is a backward pass. The snap must be received by a player who is not on his
line at the snap, unless the ball first strikes the ground. If the ball first strikes the ground, or is muffed by an
eligible backfield receiver, it can be recovered and advanced by any player.


Just playing devil's advocate now, based upon this rule, Baas could have moved the ball backwards by a few inches along the ground (muff), released his hand and simply fallen on the ball?

NYFG
09-19-2012, 03:15 PM
Just playing devil's advocate now, based upon this rule, Baas could have moved the ball backwards by a few inches along the ground (muff), released his hand and simply fallen on the ball?

I would not want to trust Baas or anyone else on the o-line for that matter attempting to fall on the ball or recover the ball in any sort of way. Too much could go wrong. Thats the easiest way to turn over the ball IMO.

tikiandphil
09-19-2012, 03:26 PM
While Schiano is trying to spin it that his team plays 60 minutes and it wasn't an unnecessary cheap shot, why is it that he did not use his final timeout to try it again, especially considering it looked like maybe it almost worked? I think that fact alone proves his full of it and made the call based on emotion and not on strategy.

If schiano was all about the win and " fighting to the end" why didn't he tell his defense to play hard when Andre Brown scored his "walk in" touch down. This guy is all fluff.

burier
09-19-2012, 03:27 PM
If schiano was all about the win and " fighting to the end" why didn't he tell his defense to play hard when Andre Brown scored his "walk in" touch down. This guy is all fluff.

Well again. when he said fight to the end or whatever I don't think he meant to the point of tactical disadvantage.

GameTime
09-19-2012, 03:30 PM
If schiano was all about the win and " fighting to the end" why didn't he tell his defense to play hard when Andre Brown scored his "walk in" touch down. This guy is all fluff.
fighting to the end and strategy are two different things. Just like some dopes are saying "why did he let the Giants take knee at the half "....Well because the Bucs were winning.

Look...I dont agree with what he did but I dont care nearly as much as some do. One play....over and done with.

titwio
09-19-2012, 03:33 PM
The best point I've heard toward the incident was if Greg Shiano wants his team to play 60 mins of football, then why didn't they do anything when the Giants took a knee at the end of the first half?

Why didn't they play till the time went out then?

RoanokeFan
09-19-2012, 03:42 PM
I would not want to trust Baas or anyone else on the o-line for that matter attempting to fall on the ball or recover the ball in any sort of way. Too much could go wrong. Thats the easiest way to turn over the ball IMO.

I'm just trying to understand the rule, not advocate it in practice.

NYFG
09-19-2012, 03:42 PM
fighting to the end and strategy are two different things. Just like some dopes are saying "why did he let the Giants take knee at the half "....Well because the Bucs were winning.

If he was that play hard mentality then win lose or tie, you play hard for the full 60. The fact that he didn't play hard when his team was up just proves he is full of him self.

jakegibbs
09-19-2012, 03:45 PM
fighting to the end and strategy are two different things. Just like some dopes are saying "why did he let the Giants take knee at the half "....Well because the Bucs were winning.

Look...I dont agree with what he did but I dont care nearly as much as some do. One play....over and done with.

If the Giants take a knee for the next 17 straight games what does that spell?

burier
09-19-2012, 03:46 PM
If he was that play hard mentality then win lose or tie, you play hard for the full 60. The fact that he didn't play hard when his team was up just proves he is full of him self.

Not....really.

What coach in his right mind is going intentionally put his team at a disadvantage for the sake of "playing hard"

The Giants always talk about "Finish" yet we walked out and got in the victory formation.

manning to shockey
09-19-2012, 03:48 PM
I also thought it was funny that they didn't choose to rush the kneel down when we were going into half time. I understand that they were up on us at that time but clearly they were not up enough because they still lost the game. If you play all 60 than why didnt they rush Eli and the O then?

NYFG
09-19-2012, 03:59 PM
Not....really.

What coach in his right mind is going intentionally put his team at a disadvantage for the sake of "playing hard"

The Giants always talk about "Finish" yet we walked out and got in the victory formation.

The quote from Schiano was "we play hard until they tell us the game is over". Was the game over in the first half? No. You cant say you play hard for the entire game and take a play or two off just because you're up. It's either one or the other you can't have it both ways.

Greg Schiano
09-19-2012, 04:04 PM
If my team was getting the ball to start the second half and we had the lead, I'd be content with going into the half with the game's momentum. The Buccaneers will play strategy football for 60 minutes. It's the losing team's right to concede defeat. The Buccaneers are an odd bunch that don't want the mercy of their opponents.

BParcells777
09-19-2012, 04:31 PM
If my team was getting the ball to start the second half and we had the lead, I'd be content with going into the half with the game's momentum. The Buccaneers will play strategy football for 60 minutes. It's the losing team's right to concede defeat. The Buccaneers are an odd bunch that don't want the mercy of their opponents.

Thanks Coach............now go back to that 4-12 team of yours and keep up the good work
Why don't you give Tiki a try......he's a bigger Ray Rice

Next time don't count on Eli gifting you 3 TD's........take those away and you would have lost by 28 points you Yahoo!

GMan-67
09-19-2012, 04:34 PM
they just showed film of his team not trying to tackle us on our final TD ... hypocrite ... he was just so frustrated that he got so embarrsed giving up 18 in one quarter and he tried to injure one of our players ... it's like the old IM TAKING MY TOYS AND GOING HOME bit ... embarassing, not long for the NFL ... he already had 1 strike in this league, now he's got 2, 1 more and he's coaching Temple

idiotekniQues
09-19-2012, 04:50 PM
there has been and still is no question that was a classless move by Schiano. at best an uneducated one but he continues to defend it. goes back to classless.

Rat_bastich
09-19-2012, 04:59 PM
While Schiano is trying to spin it that his team plays 60 minutes and it wasn't an unnecessary cheap shot, why is it that he did not use his final timeout to try it again, especially considering it looked like maybe it almost worked? I think that fact alone proves his full of it and made the call based on emotion and not on strategy.

Yeah, Tim Hasselbeck and Mark Schlereth were tallking about the same thing. They also, let the Giants use it going into the locker room at the half. Plus, the fact is they used the kneel down themselves the week before. So, he doesn't get a pass for 'not knowing'.

burier
09-19-2012, 05:07 PM
The quote from Schiano was "we play hard until they tell us the game is over". Was the game over in the first half? No. You cant say you play hard for the entire game and take a play or two off just because you're up. It's either one or the other you can't have it both ways.

I don't want to be confused for trying to defend this guy. He's a clown. But what he did was wrong for reasons that had nothing to do with his explanation or his philosophy on football.

"Playing hard" includes "coaching hard" to play hard at a point in time where it would actually be counter productive IS NOT in fact playing hard at all If that makes any sense.

To play hard is to play smart.

You can't take what he said in such a literalistic manor.

OX1
09-19-2012, 05:16 PM
fighting to the end and strategy are two different things. Just like some dopes are saying "why did he let the Giants take knee at the half "....Well because the Bucs were winning.

Look...I dont agree with what he did but I dont care nearly as much as some do. One play....over and done with.

Winning is different than won. If you could cause a fumble and pick the ball up and score again at half time, why wouldn't you.
The reason is just as I keep saying. This will NEVER work if the opposing team knows it's coming. So it might work 10-15 years form now.

Rat_bastich
09-19-2012, 06:02 PM
The thing is that as long as Schiano is coaching in the NFL opposing teams are going to prepare for this. Whereas other teams will be content to let the clock wind down, when it comes to anyone facing the Bucs it could be nasty. The one time the Bucs legitimately want to run teh clock down when they're ahead, some other team could blow their line up and injure a number of their players. The Bucs kneeled down the first week of the season at the end of the game so it is always a possibility. Be careful what you wish for and all those other cliches.

FBomb
09-19-2012, 06:09 PM
While Schiano is trying to spin it that his team plays 60 minutes and it wasn't an unnecessary cheap shot, why is it that he did not use his final timeout to try it again, especially considering it looked like maybe it almost worked? I think that fact alone proves his full of it and made the call based on emotion and not on strategy.

And if that isn't enough....Why didn't he do it before the half? The Giants were down on their own 8yd line and in a much more vulnerable position.

harrycarson
09-19-2012, 07:58 PM
And if that isn't enough....Why didn't he do it before the half? The Giants were down on their own 8yd line and in a much more vulnerable position.

Now this is an excellent point...best one yet...good job bro good stuff

RichardMc
09-19-2012, 08:44 PM
It's impossible for me not to read these as sarcasm.

My apologies. I just did a copy and paste and the text was colored red in the original document.

Ruttiger711
09-19-2012, 08:52 PM
My apologies. I just did a copy and paste and the text was colored red in the original document.

Ha! none necessary - just found it funny that this board has me trained.

NoHuddle10
09-19-2012, 09:49 PM
The best point that can be made about that BS play at the end of the game is this....

If both teams are giving it 100% on that play, and the Giants (an NFL team) are simply taking a knee. Then there is abosultely 0% chance the Giants somehow fumble, Tampa recovers, and returns it for a TD. That is all there is too it. THERE IS 0 CHANCE THIS HAPPENS. Which is why both teams just let the other team knee the ball in the NFL. It is insulting everyone in the Giants organization, if Schiano actually thought that if the Giants are trying to take a knee, and everyone is playing 100%, that there is any chance that they would fumble, Tampa recovers, and scores a TD.

It was an absolute joke what they did. The fact that some of these NFL reporters are saying otherwise is pathetic!

Harooni
09-19-2012, 10:05 PM
The 2011 NFL Rules state in Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1(c): "An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended when a quarterback immediately drops to his knee (or simulates dropping to his knee) behind the line of scrimmage".[1]


Has this been discussed over the past few days. This should put the whole thing to bed. Even when the QB simulates dropping to his knee the play is dead so even if Eli had the ball knocked out of his grasp while taking a knee the play would have been declared dead. The only chance they being the Bucks would have had would have been to illegally swipe the ball away from the center before the QB exchange which would have been overturned in a replay.

End of story why would it be illegal to try and swipe the ball during regulation time and before the whistle blows the play dead?

Captain Chaos
09-20-2012, 04:39 AM
Interesting point, however, the Giant's made the statement and took the high ground on this play.

TheAnalyst
09-20-2012, 06:47 PM
One last comment on this for me. I heard that the TB defensive players apologized after the game to the giants and said that their coach made them do it. That right there is the kicker for me. The players didn't want to do it, but Greg told them to. Unreal. NFL players know better and know revenge is best served cold. Retaliation, whether from us, or another team will come and they don't want to get a cheap injury.

Harooni
09-20-2012, 06:52 PM
I can sort of see the losing teams point, the game isnt over ,yet there is a unwritten role that you dont lounge before the whistle blows the play dead on a kneel down. so basically the other team gets a free 150 seconds without fear of turning the ball over. yes i do think it is a cheap shot but i can almost i a way see why a coach would want to play till its over in a tight game.

jomo
09-20-2012, 07:46 PM
Give the guy a break, he's simply trying to replicate the approach that brought so much success at Rutgers.

You make a good point regarding the timeout. I also think he let the clock run out in the first half, but remember WE PLAYED FOR 60 MINUTES AT RUTGERS! lol

The most telling item for me was that his players threw their head coach under the bus in saying that it wasn't their idea. Now the great general from that D1 powerhouse Rutgers has lost the respect of his professional players.