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View Full Version : Why Barden had a big game



slipknottin
09-22-2012, 12:02 PM
The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play. http://i46.tinypic.com/xda7es.jpg

6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 12:19 PM
We have faced scrub defensive coordinators the last two games in Sheridan and McDermott (Remember, he was the temp DC in Philly at one point). This appears to be not only a huge fail in player execution from the Panthers defenders but I'd say Barden was given too much respect for...really doing nothing prior before this game. McDermott didn't do his homework imo.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 12:20 PM
u have misinterpreted whatever it is u saw bc barden did make a few catches in man coverage. 100%. he did take advantage of a lot of zone looks, but he also beat the corner when it was man.
further, that rookie wasnt matched up on barden every snap. 20 and 24 both matched up on Barden at times.

i think u are confusing the defensive coverages based solely on what the LB's do. LB's can drop off into zones while the back end plays man, u know that right? the only reason I ask is bc PFF, NFL.com and ESPN.com all had discussed Barden killing Carolina in man situations across the middle, something Eli mentioned as well IIRC.

besides, i dunno if ur trying t simply describe his catches, or try to devalue his performance. that was an NFL defense of a 1-1 team that had no real issues with any WR their first 2 weeks. Barden dominated them. Carolina feels that rookie is good enough to start, then thats on them. when austin and williams were buring tryon for TD's, i didnt see anyone going "Well, Austin doesnt deserve praise bc he caught a TD pass on a 4th stringer", it was simply tryon played poorly and the wr did his job. barden did his, and get ready to see him get it dne a lot more.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 12:22 PM
virtually every assessment i've seen and read has discussed barden beating man coverage all night, so...? u have each catch vs zone coverage, which tells me ur misreading somethng. i can remember a few plays right off the top of my head he made receptions vs man coverage

Diamondring
09-22-2012, 12:22 PM
Slip, you know all players in the NFL aren't good and also KG has a lot of options in his playbook, that combo can beat a lot of teams in the NFL and watch Barden do well again.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 12:26 PM
i really like lombardi's take on bardens play, and there was another article i read but i forget by who. barden was extremely impressive, and I'm glad so many are praising JR for having such a talented roster and breaking down plays on how barden succeeded. NFL live showed some great plays as well, 1 in particular where he abused man coverage across the middle. I think a lot of people in the nfl business of writing and player eval and basic just students of the game placed a lot more emphasis on the whole Div II thing outta Cal Poly. I didn't realize the odds were so stacked in front of Barden to begin with, I am super glad the Giants drafted him and were patient through the injuries bc he was never gonna light it up year 1. he needed to learn how to succeed at the nfl level. looks like the hard work paid off.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 12:29 PM
oh and to answer ur title/question, barden had such a good night bc he has a ton of potential/talent to go along with a unique skill set and body build, at least imo. i think he had a big game too bc hes never gave up always worked hard battled through injuries and did it pretty much with so few in his corner and so many giant fans opposed to him.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 12:31 PM
like lol do u not see the corner in clear man trail technique in that catch 5 image? barden def beat man coverage there. he also beat it a few times, 1 with that slant where he started outside and then worked inside, now that i recall, that corner played man techniques a lot more than i realized.

RoanokeFan
09-22-2012, 12:34 PM
The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play. http://i46.tinypic.com/xda7es.jpg

6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).

Howard Cross, during the post game show, remarked about how far off the defenders were playing all game.

drewz
09-22-2012, 12:35 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming that Ramses Barden is the new Hakeem Nicks that can break down coverage and beat being doubled, but he should absolutely kick *** when he faces man coverage when defenses roll their coverage to Nicks and Cruz.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 12:41 PM
"Barden is a lanky third-round draft pick who had fewer than 200 career receiving yards entering Thursday night. He had 138 yards in this game alone, continually beating man coverage over the middle."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000064452/article/giants-backups-brown-barden-beat-down-panthers

just one article i had read about it. i know eli and tc remarked on how well barden was when going across the middle and making some tough catches an getting off the press cleanly. also, when teams play press, i assumed it usually meant man coverage. i know u can drop off into zone concepts with press, but the way that carolina corner was playing barden at the LOS and off the LOS, sure looked to me to be man coverage. maybe he had more catches vs zone, but i know he beat man coverage too

Captain Chaos
09-22-2012, 12:43 PM
OK, got it Slip. The Panthers didn't have a great game plan dialed up. So let me ask you this, would any good receiver do the same in this game? If the answer is yes then just give him his due for doing what he was supposed to do as a good receiver. He took advantage of what they gave him and had a couple of very nice catches (the tipped ball and his 8th reception where he made a nice inside move and shielded the Corner with his body. The point is, if he goes in as the third WO he will likely be singled up in coverage. If he has finally figured out how to take advantage of his size he will be difficult to cover. I like the idea of having the opposing D pick their poison.

Oh, nice break down.....

Diamondring
09-22-2012, 12:53 PM
I think Slip made this to show that it was not not what Barden did, but what the other team were unable to do and what he said was true. Yet it still does not take away from what Barden did but was it more of him or the opposition? This can go for any player..

moosedrool
09-22-2012, 01:00 PM
I couldn't believe they were giving Barden that much cushion. He does not have blazing speed. Bad game plan by the defensive coordinator in my opinion. But the bottom line is Barden made the plays, which in my opinion should bump him up to #3 when Hixon and Nicks are healthy. It's tough for 5'10" DB's to cover 6'6" Barden.

Cruz, Nicks, Barden, Bennett....OL Beatty and Locklear as the tackles.....Andre Brown running with power? That's a pretty potent offense.

ny06
09-22-2012, 01:07 PM
Unbelievable, Barden has a good game and of course we have to have posters who have to dissect the reasoning behind it.

Ruttiger711
09-22-2012, 01:20 PM
Unbelievable, Barden has a good game and of course we have to have posters who have to dissect the reasoning behind it.

I for one appreciate it. Some of the reaction here was almost like we found another Cruz and thoughts like that should be tempered if only for the reason that God forbid he has an average game, he will get crucified here.

YATittle1962
09-22-2012, 01:25 PM
"Barden is a lanky third-round draft pick who had fewer than 200 career receiving yards entering Thursday night. He had 138 yards in this game alone, continually beating man coverage over the middle."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000064452/article/giants-backups-brown-barden-beat-down-panthers

just one article i had read about it. i know eli and tc remarked on how well barden was when going across the middle and making some tough catches an getting off the press cleanly. also, when teams play press, i assumed it usually meant man coverage. i know u can drop off into zone concepts with press, but the way that carolina corner was playing barden at the LOS and off the LOS, sure looked to me to be man coverage. maybe he had more catches vs zone, but i know he beat man coverage too

press has little to nothing to do with whether the D is in zone or man

moosedrool
09-22-2012, 01:26 PM
Unbelievable, Barden has a good game and of course we have to have posters who have to dissect the reasoning behind it.

Unbelievable that someone would post what you just posted.

juice33s
09-22-2012, 01:28 PM
press has little to nothing to do with whether the D is in zone or man
Well he beat press, man and zone so bottom line is he got open

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 01:30 PM
i dunno...at the nfl level, i disagree. i guess it depends on defense and scheme. the jets play a press man to man almost exclusively. when we get up n the LOS and press, we r usually playing a man coverage. i cant speak to carolinas scheme, i can just say that rewatching now repeatedly bardens 9 catches, when carolina got up on him at the LOS, the corner almost exclusively played in a man2man trail technique. and either way, slip had every reception being vs zone coverage, which is not accurate at all. he was beating whatever coverage carolina presented, man and zone...i dunno how anyone could confuse a couple of his receptions for zone either unless i really am missing something...

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 01:41 PM
"Ramses Barden has played well every time he's played," Reese said. "He has just been injured. That's all."

"I have seen a lot of guys after their third year enter their fourth year and turn it on," Reese said. "Amani Toomer comes to mind. His first three years, he was trying to get it, trying to get it.

just found these quotes by JR interesting.

juice33s
09-22-2012, 01:42 PM
The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play. http://i46.tinypic.com/xda7es.jpg

6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).
And thats where his biggest plays came from so I'm not sure I see your point....Are you saying they should've pressed him more despite the fact he beat Norman with ease?

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 01:49 PM
like lol do u not see the corner in clear man trail technique in that catch 5 image? barden def beat man coverage there. he also beat it a few times, 1 with that slant where he started outside and then worked inside, now that i recall, that corner played man techniques a lot more than i realized.

You really should watch the all-22. In the play that is pictured the cb bailed. It is clearly cover 3. The only reason in the photo it looks like trail is because Barden went to the middle underneath the corner and safety. And the corner sort of followed him. The corner did seem confused wether he was supposed to keep going deep or follow Barden across. Perhaps they were playing a switch, which would explain why the safety was going deep to that side.

But more likely both the cb and safety played that one awful

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 01:53 PM
And thats where his biggest plays came from so I'm not sure I see your point....Are you saying they should've pressed him more despite the fact he beat Norman with ease?

Well one of the biggest concerns with Barden was his ability to beat press coverage. He did a good job of it against Norman in this game. But I would like to see him do it against a better quality DB. I'm not knocking Barden for that. He can only beat who he is lined up against.

I think more shocking to me was how little man coverage they played overall. It was almost all zone, with the corners playing way off.

As an example, the giants lined Hynoski up out wide on one play, and the cb matched up against him was playing 10 yards off. Worried about Hynoski's deep speed, perhaps.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 02:11 PM
Press can be man or zone. But it won't be cover 3 or cover 4.

The Tampa 2 for instance has a lot of press in it. But is a zone coverage.

The easiest way to tell is where the CB goes once the ball is snapped. If the CB bails and keeps the WR in front of him it's zone, if the CB let's the WR get behind him but plays trail then it's man.

BurnerNYG
09-22-2012, 02:16 PM
Press can be man or zone. But it won't be cover 3 or cover 4.

The Tampa 2 for instance has a lot of press in it. But is a zone coverage.

The easiest way to tell is where the CB goes once the ball is snapped. If the CB bails and keeps the WR in front of him it's zone, if the CB let's the WR get behind him but plays trail then it's man.We can play Madden to learn all that. Why are you trying so hard? You were wrong, it happens... accept it.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 02:21 PM
We can play Madden to learn all that. Why are you trying so hard? You were wrong, it happens... accept it.

It was being talked about earlier in the thread. People were talking about how well Barden played, so I broke down what he did and why. If you don't care don't read the thread

YATittle1962
09-22-2012, 02:21 PM
We can play Madden to learn all that. Why are you trying so hard? You were wrong, it happens... accept it.

what is he wrong about ?

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 02:26 PM
either barden in general and his inability to do anything whatsoever, or the receptions all vs zone comment. dunno which burners talking about but id assume it has to be one of those 2.

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 02:26 PM
what is he wrong about ?

Just the pregame prediction. Even the greats get it wrong time to time. He's correct though in analyzing that Barden had a lot of cushion to work with (more than he deserved imo) but the biggest thing was his ability to beat man coverage when it happened. The question remains though is can Barden do this now consistently and against better DBs?

BurnerNYG
09-22-2012, 02:28 PM
I didn't read the thread. I just went to your last comment and figured you were defending how your theory of Barden failing failed. Lol

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 02:30 PM
I already posted that Barden played much better than I thought he would and I'm very happy about it. Now I broke down how and why he was successful.

He beat Norman on man coverage and found holes in zone coverage. I don't think the panthers played well defensively, but that's not a knock on Barden. I would like to see him do this against better quality opponents

I'm not sure in the future teams give Barden as much freedom to operate. But it Barden can continue to beat press and physical man coverage, it won't matter, and he can continue to be productive

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 02:32 PM
I mainly saw Zone reads. Just re watched all 9, even the press that norman put on barden wasn't a press contain & trail, he quick jammed then pulled out, you also have to look at what the other corners and safeties are doing. Slip was correct in his assessment. he beat the man as well but against Norman.....Norman!

Also like enigma said can he do this consistently against better DB's. Gamble was on barden for only two plays the first two and he played off by 8-10 yards on both.

RichardMc
09-22-2012, 02:33 PM
Press can be man or zone. But it won't be cover 3 or cover 4.

The Tampa 2 for instance has a lot of press in it. But is a zone coverage.

The easiest way to tell is where the CB goes once the ball is snapped. If the CB bails and keeps the WR in front of him it's zone, if the CB let's the WR get behind him but plays trail then it's man.

This is a good thread. For my two cents I would just add that you can have deep zone with man underneath. So you can see the safeties two deep while underneath they are playing man. I am probably stating the obvious but just thought I would jump in.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 02:35 PM
I mainly saw Zone reads. Just re watched all 9, even the press that norman put on barden wasn't a press contain & trail, he quick jammed then pulled out, you also have to look at what the other corners and safeties are doing. Slip was correct in his assessment. he beat the man as well but against Norman.....Norman!

Also like enigma said can he do this consistently against better DB's. Gamble was on barden for only two plays the first two and he played off by 8-10 yards on both.

Yea. And Barden took it to Norman when Norman pressed. Got position on Norman everytime right off the snap. I haven't watched much of Norman, so couldn't tell you if he does well jamming receivers or always has trouble. But he got beat badly off the jam against Barden

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 02:38 PM
I think we can all agree that Barden has been a bit of a tease ever since he joined the Giants. He would flash his talents during the preseason and then either not be able to battle his way up the depth chart (a tough one to get up though) or get injured for an extended period of time. Not sure about anyone else but it's hard for me to get too excited when he has a habit of disappearing. I'm not asking for these kinds of performances every time or even half of what he produced but just to get a few catches a game and be able to move the chains for us when Nicks and Cruz are doubled.

BurnerNYG
09-22-2012, 02:40 PM
I already posted that Barden played much better than I thought he would and I'm very happy about it. Now I broke down how and why he was successful.

He beat Norman on man coverage and found holes in zone coverage. I don't think the panthers played well defensively, but that's not a knock on Barden. I would like to see him do this against better quality opponents

I'm not sure in the future teams give Barden as much freedom to operate. But it Barden can continue to beat press and physical man coverage, it won't matter, and he can continue to be productiveYou don't have to explain anything to me Slip, I'm just busting your chops. As far as playing against better quality opponents, that should be easier considering we got 3 other major threats. Can't cover everybody and not only was Barden getting open, he was going up for passes. Playing like that only builds confidence. I think he'll be fine.

moosedrool
09-22-2012, 02:41 PM
I think we can all agree that Barden has been a bit of a tease ever since he joined the Giants. He would flash his talents during the preseason and then either not be able to battle his way up the depth chart (a tough one to get up though) or get injured for an extended period of time. Not sure about anyone else but it's hard for me to get too excited when he has a habit of disappearing. I'm not asking for these kinds of performances every time or even half of what he produced but just to get a few catches a game and be able to move the chains for us when Nicks and Cruz are doubled.

The difference this time is it's his 4th year. Many receivers don't emerge until the 3rd or 4th year. On the flip side, if they don't emerge by the 4th year they most likely won't ever emerge.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 02:44 PM
You don't have to explain anything to me Slip, I'm just busting your chops. As far as playing against better quality opponents, that should be easier considering we got 3 other major threats. Can't cover everybody and not only was Barden getting open, he was going up for passes. Playing like that only builds confidence. I think he'll be fine.

Well I'm just not sure how often he is going to be matched up against 5th round rookies, along with no pass rush and LBs who struggled mightily getting depth in their drops. Even with Cruz and nicks drawing double coverage, Barden should see much tighter coverage.

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 02:49 PM
The difference this time is it's his 4th year. Many receivers don't emerge until the 3rd or 4th year. On the flip side, if they don't emerge by the 4th year they most likely won't ever emerge.

Depends on the circumstances. Maybe he would of emerged on another team earlier due to WR depth but I think he was too raw in his first two years to do any damage.

primetime
09-22-2012, 02:55 PM
I'm glad Barden had the game he did, for the sheer reason it helped his confidence, and more importantly helped the Giants win. I'm not really concerned on how the Panthers defense played Barden, the fact is he had his opportunity and seized it.

BurnerNYG
09-22-2012, 02:55 PM
I need to watch the game again but who was he lined up against when Eli threw him that short screen and he spun around him. That was pretty athletic and I'm sure he practices against our corners on how to beat jams or what not. Yeah he's gonna play against some tougher competition but he's not gonna be our primary target. Whatever the case may be, he's gonna be seeing a lot of single coverages and if they start rolling men to his side, somebody else is gonna have a huge day. It's a win, win situation.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 02:58 PM
I need to watch the game again but who was he lined up against when Eli threw him that short screen and he spun around him. That was pretty athletic and I'm sure he practices against our corners on how to beat jams or what not. Yeah he's gonna play against some tougher competition but he's not gonna be our primary target. Whatever the case may be, he's gonna be seeing a lot of single coverages and if they start rolling men to his side, somebody else is gonna have a huge day. It's a win, win situation.

Norman. Norman was 10 yards off. Burdens spin got Norman over pursuing inside.

I don't believe Barden had a catch against anyone other than Norman or in zone. I didn't see munnerlyn lined up against him at all. Gamble was on him for like two or three plays but Barden was not thrown to

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 02:59 PM
well when he's the 3rd wr out there, i doubt teams are going to match their weaker corners on nicks n cruz n their better ones on barden. he should still actually face similar competition from that perspective.
and i guess i misread ur OP, i thought u were saying barden only beat zone coverage but i've read ur recent posts discussing he beat zone n man, thats the only comment i wanted to inject was that he was constantly beating man across the middle.

Mod_C
09-22-2012, 03:00 PM
There's an article in the news thread in which Coughlin says there is room for everybody. That should be a good news story for us, and it's born out in the snap count of the Panthers' game. Virtually everybody who suited up took some snaps. Is it so important that player X play more than player Y? Or is it better to take a situational perspective regarding who does what? In the Dallas game, as an example, Hixon was the punt returner because the kicker was left footed. Leave it to Tom Coughlin's coaching staff to make that call.

Barden did a fantastic job against the Panthers and it shouldn't matter how he did it or what the Panthers did or didn't do. I do think it's good to see these kinds of posts from people who obviously know more about football than some of the rest of us. That's how we learn. Will he be able to do it against other teams? Isn't that we used to ask about Victor Cruz? I honestly don't know the answer, but I feel more confident today than I did on Saturday.

Plus Nicks and Hixon, hopefully, will be back bringing our tool bag back to full strength

Neverend
09-22-2012, 03:02 PM
For what its worth:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0kxrlGXTn4

GameTime
09-22-2012, 03:02 PM
The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play. http://i46.tinypic.com/xda7es.jpg

6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).
why do feel the need to break down Barden's game?? To discredit what he did or to not make it look like such a good game?? Look I have been a Barden detractor since his second season. I thought he wouldnt even make it through camp. I give the kid credit for having a very good game.
If it was Nicks who had 9 catches for 133 would you break down the fikm???
Eli and Barden took advantage of crappt coverage most of the night. So did Eli and Bennet......

TextureDj
09-22-2012, 03:03 PM
This whole offense is designed to exploit the defensive formation in any given play, right?

So isnt finding the holes in a cover 2 or cover 3 exactly what we want to see from a receiver who has finally matured?

I mean I dont see what you are trying to point out here really, this is what receivers in this offense need to do, find the seams in zone looks, and get open quick in press and blitz situations, all while doing what Eli expects to avoid turnovers.

You can say, and I agree lets see how he fares against tougher opposition, but this was a banner day for anyone, and frankly a quarter of that production makes him every bit Marios replacement.

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 03:03 PM
Norman. Norman was 10 yards off. Burdens spin got Norman over pursuing inside.

I don't believe Barden had a catch against anyone other than Norman or in zone. I didn't see munnerlyn lined up against him at all. Gamble was on him for like two or three plays but Barden was not thrown to

Munnerlyn was lined up against Cruz in the slot for majority of the plays. He was the only Panthers defender to finish positive in coverage according to PFF. I know their coverage grades are more shady than the rest but considering Cruz didn't see much action, I'll believe he had a good day against Cruz and as a result, Barden had more looks from Eli.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:04 PM
well when he's the 3rd wr out there, i doubt teams are going to match their weaker corners on nicks n cruz n their better ones on barden. he should still actually face similar competition from that perspective.
and i guess i misread ur OP, i thought u were saying barden only beat zone coverage but i've read ur recent posts discussing he beat zone n man, thats the only comment i wanted to inject was that he was constantly beating man across the middle.

Still not many teams have 5th round rookies playing significant snaps on defense.

And it may actually be likely for them to use lesser corners in double teams and top corners singled. That's how a lot of teams operate. Put the top corner on a lesser receiver on and island. And scheme with multiple players to take away the top threats

Neverend
09-22-2012, 03:06 PM
Josh norman is a rookie corner that came out of division II

Barden tends to do historically well against those guys. I wasn't impressed with how he beat man coverage, I still have concerns if he can separate against corners that can actually legimately get their hands on him.

But bardens got the system down and i liked the way on one route he leaned into the corner before breaking on the incut. Hes improved his technique at the top of his routes, but he still looks somewhat stiff and average speed-wise to me. I just dont think he'd have as much success vs a corner thats not a rookie out of coastal carolina

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:06 PM
why do feel the need to break down Barden's game?? To discredit what he did or to not make it look like such a good game?? Look I have been a Barden detractor since his second season. I thought he wouldnt even make it through camp. I give the kid credit for having a very good game.
If it was Nicks who had 9 catches for 133 would you break down the fikm???
Eli and Barden took advantage of crappt coverage most of the night. So did Eli and Bennet......
I'm assuming you also complained about that Nicks vs. Talib video last week?

When I get free time I'm going to try to breakdown what I can. This was the hot topic this week. So this is what I did.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 03:08 PM
i dunno how many teams subscribe to that defensive theory. usually defenses want their best cover guy on the opponents best wr...

ny06
09-22-2012, 03:09 PM
Josh norman is a rookie corner that came out of division II

Barden tends to do historically well against those guys. I wasn't impressed with how he beat man coverage, I still have concerns if he can separate against corners that can actually legimately get their hands on him.

But bardens got the system down and i liked the way on one route he leaned into the corner before breaking on the incut. Hes improved his technique at the top of his routes, but he still looks somewhat stiff and average speed-wise to me. I just dont think he'd have as much success vs a corner thats not a rookie out of coastal carolina
So you're saying unless Barden plays against rookie corners from division II he will have little to no impact in this league?

GameTime
09-22-2012, 03:10 PM
I'm assuming you also complained about that Nicks vs. Talib video last week?
not complaining.....but did you do a catch by catch diagnosis of Nicks last week??
Dude....I totally appreciate the veiws you bring and the time you take to post the vids as well. I thank you each and every time you do it.
BUt you didnt do this analysis of Barden to show how good he performed you did it to show that in your opinion he didn have that great of game and people should just chill out. I agree to a point....the kid still has a lot to prove. BUt he had a good game and took advantage of what was given to him. That is a step a in the right direction and way more then he has done so far. Why dog him for it????

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:11 PM
not complaining.....but did you do a catch by catch diagnosis of Nicks last week??
Dude....I totally appreciate the veiws you bring and the time you take to post the vids as well. I thank you each and every time you do it.
BUt you didnt do this analyisi of Barden to show how good he performed you did it to show that in your opinion he didn have that great of game and people should just chill out. I agree to a pint....the kid still has a lot to prove. BUt he had a good game and took advantage of what was given to him. That is a step a in the right direction and way more then he has done so far. Why dog him for it????

I would have last week if I had time. This thread doesn't dog Barden at all. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea it is.

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 03:11 PM
i dunno how many teams subscribe to that defensive theory. usually defenses want their best cover guy on the opponents best wr...

It actually happens to Megatron a whole bunch if you ever get to catch Lions games. It's better to put 2-3 average guys on him and leave your good corner on the 2nd man in an attempts to shut down the passing game.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:12 PM
i dunno how many teams subscribe to that defensive theory. usually defenses want their best cover guy on the opponents best wr...

Depends on the matchup. Bucs for instance did not double cover Nicks. Instead single covered him most of the game. Means theoretically they could have doubled both Barden and Cruz.

BurnerNYG
09-22-2012, 03:13 PM
not complaining.....but did you do a catch by catch diagnosis of Nicks last week??
Dude....I totally appreciate the veiws you bring and the time you take to post the vids as well. I thank you each and every time you do it.
BUt you didnt do this analysis of Barden to show how good he performed you did it to show that in your opinion he didn have that great of game and people should just chill out. I agree to a point....the kid still has a lot to prove. BUt he had a good game and took advantage of what was given to him. That is a step a in the right direction and way more then he has done so far. Why dog him for it????+1

GameTime
09-22-2012, 03:14 PM
I would have last week if I had time. This thread doesn't dog Barden at all. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea it is.
if I was wrong about that I am sorry. I did see you post in other threads that even though he had a good night you still arent that impressed. I assume given the time he has been on the team and all....

If I am off base then I apologize....

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 03:15 PM
thanks neverend. i counted 4 receptions vs man. 1 or 2 of receptions vs gamble (1 def being man on a quick slant).
and slip, i confused the catch 5 image for a play that looked exactly similar, that PA in for 22, which was def man. the catch 5 image, i agree with ur last statement to me, not sure if it is man or zone, looks like its man, but also looks so poorly played it could have been a zone concept.
but yeah, watch that clip and its clear barden had success vs man coverage, press coverage, and zone.

Neverend
09-22-2012, 03:15 PM
So you're saying unless Barden plays against rookie corners from division II he will have little to no impact in this league?

Not that he wont have impact on this league, but he dominanted those type of defensive backs in college and technically norman is a rookie from that small school 2nd tier division league. Granted, he must have been damn good to have even gotten drafted in the 5th round and people were high on him coming out of the draft. But the guy is raw as hell and was only starting for the panthers because captain mutherland had a horrific camp/preseason for the panthers so he got replaced by a raw, small school 5th round rookie corner

That play barden beat norman in press coverage, i was very unimpressed with norman's technique. He barely got his hands on barden and opened up his hips to the outside WAY too prematurely, barden had an ordinary release on the route.. it wasn't explosive or anything. The point is, I'm not saying barden can't make an impact in this league. I'm just not ready to say this guy has shut down concerns about his ability to beat man-to-man tight/press coverage on the outside based on one game vs a rookie corner. I want to see more. But his ability to find holes and his technique at the top of his routes is definitely worth of praise

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:15 PM
if I was wrong about that I am sorry. I did see you post in other threads that even though he had a good night you still arent that impressed. I assume given the time he has been on the team and all....

If I am off base then I apologize....

Seriously. I'm done arguing with people over this. Read the thread. I already have said multiple times he had a good game.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 03:16 PM
good point gametime

GameTime
09-22-2012, 03:16 PM
Seriously. I'm done arguing with people over this. Read the thread. I already have said multiple times he had a good game.
come on man....I apologized and I am not arguing at all. My aplogies are sincere and not patronizing....

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:17 PM
thanks neverend. i counted 4 receptions vs man. 1 or 2 of receptions vs gamble (1 def being man on a quick slant).
and slip, i confused the catch 5 image for a play that looked exactly similar, that PA in for 22, which was def man. the catch 5 image, i agree with ur last statement to me, not sure if it is man or zone, looks like its man, but also looks so poorly played it could have been a zone concept.
but yeah, watch that clip and its clear barden had success vs man coverage, press coverage, and zone.

What receptions did he have vs. gamble?

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 03:17 PM
Its not a matter of being impressed, its seeing consistency, this is just like the bennett debate we just want to see consistent production. I think in the euphoria of the game alot of fans were already willing and open to Barden as this legitimate threat, top 10-15 receiver over one good game. We are merely trying to show those poster the other side of the debate, what coverage looks did he see, was it mainly man or zone, did he truly beat these receivers or was it a poor defensive scheme.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:18 PM
And a breakdown of Nicks vs the bucs would have been awful boring. Press man coverage nearly every play.

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 03:18 PM
C'mon guys...let's not make this about Slip. We have a really interesting piece of information here that is fun to talk about and to get different views on. So if Barden is the #3 against the Eagles, will he face Brandon Boykin next week? Should be a better test against a more polished DB.

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 03:20 PM
thanks neverend. i counted 4 receptions vs man. 1 or 2 of receptions vs gamble (1 def being man on a quick slant).
and slip, i confused the catch 5 image for a play that looked exactly similar, that PA in for 22, which was def man. the catch 5 image, i agree with ur last statement to me, not sure if it is man or zone, looks like its man, but also looks so poorly played it could have been a zone concept.
but yeah, watch that clip and its clear barden had success vs man coverage, press coverage, and zone.

Did you watch the A-22 or just that clip neverend put up?
cause you are not gonig to understand whats going on from that angle

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:20 PM
come on man....I apologized and I am not arguing at all. My aplogies are sincere and not patronizing....

All I did was break down the film. Show what he did and where he won.

Did you want me to finish with the conclusion that he is as good as megatron or something? I just don't understand what you want. How is describing the plays dogging Barden?

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:22 PM
C'mon guys...let's not make this about Slip. We have a really interesting piece of information here that is fun to talk about and to get different views on. So if Barden is the #3 against the Eagles, will he face Brandon Boykin next week? Should be a better test against a more polished DB.

I believe Boykin only plays in the slot. Barden will be up against DRC or Nnamdi probably

Neverend
09-22-2012, 03:23 PM
Did you watch the A-22 or just that clip neverend put up?
cause you are not gonig to understand whats going on from that angle

I agree you're not going to understand the coverages from that angle but the tv game replays shows specifically how barden looked on his routes, like his releases and breaks

Neverend
09-22-2012, 03:25 PM
I believe Boykin only plays in the slot. Barden will be up against DRC or Nnamdi probably

If barden shows the ability to get off the line against those guys, im officially a believer

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 03:25 PM
I believe Boykin only plays in the slot. Barden will be up against DRC or Nnamdi probably

Makes sense. It'll probably be Nnamdi since he matches up with him the best in regards to physical profiles. Though I haven't watched the Eagles that much this season so maybe the Eagles just line up their CBs on one side of the field and they take on whatever WR is across from them.

GameTime
09-22-2012, 03:38 PM
All I did was break down the film. Show what he did and where he won.

Did you want me to finish with the conclusion that he is as good as megatron or something? I just don't understand what you want. How is describing the plays dogging Barden?
I guess you dont know how to accept an apology. I stated twice already that if I was wrong in my veiw point of what you were trying to do with your analyisis then I am sorry. Why would I wan yout to conclude that he is megatron?? I have also stated several times that he had a good game and has a lot to prove.

Buddy333
09-22-2012, 03:43 PM
Maybe he didn't go against the best competition, but it was his 1st start. Also, when Nicks and Cruz are healthy they will draw most of the attention. Bennett is getting more involved as well. I think Barden will be able to help this team.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 03:51 PM
first two targets i believe, I know 1 of the first 2 targets was to barden on a slant in front of gamble. in the clip neverend posted.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:52 PM
first two targets i believe, I know 1 of the first 2 targets was to barden on a slant in front of gamble. in the clip neverend posted.

The first one is C3, if he runs a slant then it isnt against Gamble, even if Gamble was the CB lined up on that side. The second one is definitely against Norman, because Norman gets the tackle.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 03:56 PM
did u watch neverends clip? the first 45 seconds, 2 catches, were vs gamble (mayock even states his name), that one slant where eli threw him into the spin move outside was on gamble. barden looked equally as good as he did vs norman those 2 plays vs gamble

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 03:57 PM
first one may have been a cover 3, but barden is still that corners responsibility on a quick hitter like that. the one im more impressed with, was a man front i believe dont have access to the coaches tape atm, but gamble is tracking barden on that slant, which is why the throw towards the outside sprung him for an excellent YAC play

gamble tries to under cut the slant with his angle, the ball was out too quickly and honestly, barden made gamble look pretty bad on that play. u coudlnt tell if it was norman or not...good stuff by barden

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 03:58 PM
The first two Barden receptions were indeed versus Gamble but those were soft zone coverages which I don't get why the defensive coordinator would have his best cornerback give Barden such a soft cushion.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 03:59 PM
first one may have been a cover 3, but barden is still that corners responsibility on a quick hitter like that.

No, he isnt. A corner in a cover 3 has to maintain outside leverage and depth, can not play a slant if playing outside with depth. Slants against C3 are against the underneath defenders, safeties or linebackers (or nickel cb's if one is on the field)

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 04:00 PM
2nd one wasnt soft zone, he was just playing man off, which is why the slant worked so well. gamble clearly takes an angle to try and undercut it once he sees the slant, but bc he was off, and bc the pass was thrown quickly, and to the outside, it gives barden the chance to spin out and run for YAC, which he did perfectly. that was a great play for barden, had to give him confidence right off the bat

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 04:02 PM
slip-on a slant that the wr starts upfield 5 yds then makes the slant cut yeah, on a slant play like the one barden ran that we're discussing, that route has to be defended as if it was a screen pass...does a corner have to maintain deep outside leverage on a screen pass? but agree to disagree, the 1rst one isnt even my focus (altho he did make the 1rst slant reception on gamble, dont see how zone changes the guys name) the 2nd slant was what impressed me more

joemorrisforprez
09-22-2012, 04:03 PM
"Ramses Barden has played well every time he's played," Reese said. "He has just been injured. That's all."

"I have seen a lot of guys after their third year enter their fourth year and turn it on," Reese said. "Amani Toomer comes to mind. His first three years, he was trying to get it, trying to get it.

just found these quotes by JR interesting.

Good quotes.

Barden did his job, and Eli had a tremendous game. There's not a whole lot a defense can do when they are facing that many weapons. The Panthers made a decision to take away Cruz - which was a reasonable plan - and they got burned by Barden.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 04:04 PM
2nd one could have been C3 too, its hard to tell, the CBs are supposed to come up to help make the tackle in a C3, but the slant is not their responsibility.

Even in off man, that quick throw to the inside has to be the underneath defenders responsibility.

Neither one is on Gamble.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 04:06 PM
slip-on a slant that the wr starts upfield 5 yds then makes the slant cut yeah, on a slant play like the one barden ran that we're discussing, that route has to be defended as if it was a screen pass...does a corner have to maintain deep outside leverage on a screen pass? but agree to disagree, the 1rst one isnt even my focus (altho he did make the 1rst slant reception on gamble, dont see how zone changes the guys name) the 2nd slant was what impressed me more

A CB playing cover 3 CAN NOT make a play against a screen. Has to be the deepest player on that side of the field. Underneath coverage is responsible for any short throws. Once the ball is on its way out, yes they can come down to help. Before that they have to remain the deepest player.


And you were correct, Gamble was on that side on both of the first two throws. I swore I read on the nfl gamebook that it was Norman there, but that was my mistake.

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 04:13 PM
Whether the 2nd reception was soft zone or man off, I think more often than not, Barden gets tackled before making that spin move. Gamble was too eager to make a play when he should of shown a bit more patience.

Fharcyde
09-22-2012, 04:18 PM
Eli seems to favor bigger targets. When Barden was drafted everyone was hoping for Plaxico Buress' clone. Since then I think we've all moved on from the Burress era and Eli has been able to win time and time again with whatever Reese gives him.

Injuries have held him back more than anything. The fact that he's 6'6" gives him a huge advantage over almost every cornerback in the league. Apparently Wide Receiver is one of the toughest positions to learn coming out of college and he was said to be raw coming out of a small school. I'm happy he actually got to see the field this week. If he can develop a rapport like this with Eli Manning and slip Cruz into the slot the Giants are golden.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 04:22 PM
Eli seems to favor bigger targets. .

Im not so sure of that.

Steve Smith 5116
Manningham 5116
Victor Cruz 5115
Hakeem Nicks 6006

Marvelousmik
09-22-2012, 04:23 PM
Slip I first want to point out that you have a lot of guts for doing this. But I understand the point you're trying to make, and its the same reason why i didnt jump on my knees and starting worshiping braden yet. The season is still very young so we dont truly know which players or teams are good yet.

Barden had a great game and We're happy about that. Good job barden. However, I need you to step up against a better defense for me to start calling you a stud. Last week nicks had to work really hard. It seemed like barden had it a little easy.

Like i said i dont think slip is calling barden bad or taking anything away from him. He played lights out. But before we start crowning him lets wait and see if he can do it against a better secondary. I am very impressed by his route running though. That being said I have faith in him.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 04:25 PM
Now like i said i dont think slip is calling barden bad or taking anything away from him. He played lights out. But before we start crowning him lets wait and see if he can do it against a better secondary.

Consistency is what separates a nobody from a great player! Everyone in the NFL has talent.

Like Ive said, I want nothing more than for Barden to be a great receiver. The better he can play every week the better the giants can play.

Fharcyde
09-22-2012, 04:34 PM
Im not so sure of that.

Steve Smith 5116
Manningham 5116
Victor Cruz 5115
Hakeem Nicks 6006
Kevin Boss 6'6
Jake Ballard 6'6
Martellus Bennett 6'6
Plaxico Burress 6'5
Ramses Barden 6'6
Domenik Hixon 6'2

These might not be some of our bigger names and usually the Tight End is around that size, but there's generally larger targets out there for him apart from the few hanging around at 5'11. But the norm seems to be above at least 6". Not to mention Hakeem Nicks has some of the biggest hands in football.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 04:36 PM
Kevin Boss 6'6
Jake Ballard 6'6
Martellus Bennett 6'6
Plaxico Burress 6'5
Ramses Barden 6'6
Domenik Hixon 6'2

These might not be some of our bigger names and usually the Tight End is around that size, but there's generally larger targets out there for him apart from the few hanging around at 5'11. But the norm seems to be above at least 6". Not to mention Hakeem Nicks has some of the biggest hands in football.

Well TEs have to be bigger anyway, would be strange to have a 5115 TE, lol. I just dont think Eli has a preference, if a receiver can win on his route, Eli will throw to him.

Fharcyde
09-22-2012, 04:39 PM
Well TEs have to be bigger anyway, would be strange to have a 5115 TE, lol. I just dont think Eli has a preference, if a receiver can win on his route, Eli will throw to him.
I think with how accurate Eli is, it makes it easier for him to throw the ball to a spot where only his receiver can get it because of the height advantage they have. There's only a handful of QB's that are as sharp as Manning in my opinion.

Nolan24
09-22-2012, 05:11 PM
he's just a huge target and Eli can hit him with ease 1 on 1

The Notorious B.I.G BLUE
09-22-2012, 05:12 PM
Eli, Barden, and KG all took advantage of the way the defense was covering. Did they play soft at times...sure, Did they roll coverage to Cruz...of course. Your breakdown comes off like he lucked his way to 9 catch for 138 yards. If he had all this room bc of coverages and Cruz...imagine when Nicks comes back.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Eli, Barden, and KG all took advantage of the way the defense was covering. Did they play soft at times...sure, Did they roll coverage to Cruz...of course. Your breakdown comes off like he lucked his way to 9 catch for 138 yards. If he had all this room bc of coverages and Cruz...imagine when Nicks comes back.

Eh? A lot of it was really soft coverage and Barden did not have to do much, a couple plays he didnt even have to move and defenders ran away from him! But it wasent luck, it was good play design and execution. Barden did a nice job beating press coverage when he got it. But overall, I did not feel the panthers challenged him much.

fansince69
09-22-2012, 05:16 PM
In all honesty the reason Barden had a big game is easy
Eli threw the ball....Barden caught the ball

It's a simple game....You throw the ball....you catch the ball

The Notorious B.I.G BLUE
09-22-2012, 05:21 PM
Eh? A lot of it was really soft coverage and Barden did not have to do much, a couple plays he didnt even have to move and defenders ran away from him! But it wasent luck, it was good play design and execution. Barden did a nice job beating press coverage when he got it. But overall, I did not feel the panthers challenged him much.
I get what your saying and to much of your points I agree. Barren still had to make the plays though. How many times have we seen Eli throw to Barden early in a game only to watch him drop the pass and then never get heard from for the rest of the game. I give him credit for taking advantage of this opportunity. We need someone to step up and take that other outside receiver position when Cruz switches in to the slot, hopefully this is just the begining for Barden.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:27 PM
I get what your saying and to much of your points I agree. Barren still had to make the plays though

Yep, I said the same thing. Barden can only play against who the defense puts on him. Certainly not trying to knock him by saying he didnt face very good competition. I just would like to see Barden be successful against better players.

The Notorious B.I.G BLUE
09-22-2012, 05:34 PM
Yep, I said the same thing. Barden can only play against who the defense puts on him. Certainly not trying to knock him by saying he didnt face very good competition. I just would like to see Barden be successful against better players.
Agreed

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 05:40 PM
2nd one could have been C3 too, its hard to tell, the CBs are supposed to come up to help make the tackle in a C3, but the slant is not their responsibility.

Even in off man, that quick throw to the inside has to be the underneath defenders responsibility.

Neither one is on Gamble.

The Second one where it was gamble playing 8 yards off was C3. Even in a off-man you don't peddle back at all playing that far off the receiver, you hold until the receiver is a couple yards in front of you then you shadow. Gamble back peddled a little as the ball snapped then adjusted to the quick slant, if it was a regular slant he would of been trailed back and it would of been the LB's responsibility. Which is why it was easy for Barden to get that spin on him, if it was off man Gamble would of closed in quicker.


Like i said all-22 is necessary if you want to debate this, just watching clips is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 05:41 PM
lol. ok...u believe whatever u want to believe.

and im sorry i had to edit, "sitting on the wr until he's a few feet away from u" is HORRIBLE for zone OR man. u dont have their playbook. u are making an educated guess (and with that comment i use that term loosely). All I know, as soon as Barden makes his incut, NOT when the ball is thrown, Gamble take an angle to undercut the slant. Which is why Gamble was susceptible to the turn outside...IF that was zone, and i dont believe it was, Gamble played the worst zone coverage in the history of the NFL if he was responsible for a C3 but ends up on the INSIDE of Barden making a slant...

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:43 PM
The Second one where it was gamble playing 8 yards off was C3. Even in a off-man you don't peddle back at all playing that far off the receiver, you hold until the receiver is a couple yards in front of you then you shadow. Gamble back peddled a little as the ball snapped then adjusted to the quick slant, if it was a regular slant he would of been trailed back and it would of been the LB's responsibility. Which is why it was easy for Barden to get that spin on him, if it was off man Gamble would of closed in quicker.

Thanks for the insight. I figured that was C3 too. They really did make it awful easy for Barden to run those quick slants. The LB (was it Kuechly playing on that side both plays?) was just nowhere close to being able to prevent that throw.

I dont understand why they were playing so far off, even if it was C3. As I said earlier, there is a play with Hynoski lined up wide, and the CB is playing like 8 yards off him! What the heck! You're DBs cant be THAT worried about getting beat deep by Hynoski.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 05:47 PM
if that was a C3 zone from gamble, that is the absolute WORST zone coverage in the history of the NFL.

further, u said the first one gamble was in a c3 look. and according to slip, Barden is NOT gambles responsbility AT ALL on a slant in a C3, which is why Gamble drops off. So then why on the 2nd play, does Gamble play it 10000% completely different? sorry, now im fearing that one of u doesnt have a clue what ur talking about bc now ur applying completely different techniques and angles and calling them by the same name...nah, IF C3 was the first defense gamble was in, than the 2nd pass, if it was C3, wouldnt Gamble at least play it similarily??
i guess the all22 angle doesnt guarantee an understanding?

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:49 PM
lol. ok...u believe whatever u want to believe.

and im sorry i had to edit, "sitting on the wr until he's a few feet away from u" is HORRIBLE for zone OR man. u dont have their playbook. u are making an educated guess (and with that comment i use that term loosely). All I know, as soon as Barden makes his incut, NOT when the ball is thrown, Gamble take an angle to undercut the slant. Which is why Gamble was susceptible to the turn outside...IF that was zone, and i dont believe it was, Gamble played the worst zone coverage in the history of the NFL if he was responsible for a C3 but ends up on the INSIDE of Barden making a slant...

He doesnt take any angle to undercut anything. He goes to close on Barden, thinking Barden would turn up field, but Barden spins back outside. And its not a playbook thing, you have to play certain techniques in every C3 call to make it successful.

I dont see how Gamble plays the two that differently. Look very similar to me. He just takes an awful angle the second time, and Barden spins back outside.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 05:50 PM
gamble plays the same route by barden completely different in the two instances he was matched on him. on 1, he doesnt attack the slant at all and continues the drop into zone; c3 (even tho I feel Gamble still coulda made an effort on the ball. i get that he has deep responsibility, but like the ex of a screen, just bc they arent attacking his zone doesnt mean he shouldnt make a football play but i digress).
the 2nd time defending it, he takes an angle to undercut the slant, and plays it entirely different. so i dunno how that could be a C3

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:51 PM
gamble plays the same route by barden completely different in the two instances he was matched on him. on 1, he doesnt attack the slant at all and continues the drop into zone; c3 (even tho I feel Gamble still coulda made an effort on the ball. i get that he has deep responsibility, but like the ex of a screen, just bc they arent attacking his zone doesnt mean he shouldnt make a football play but i digress).
the 2nd time defending it, he takes an angle to undercut the slant, and plays it entirely different. so i dunno how that could be a C3

I dont understand how you are saying he is trying to "undercut the route" when he is 5 yards behind and outside of the receiver...

Corners in C3 cant attack receivers in others zones, until the ball is coming out, then they can break on it. If he comes up earlier, he compromises the structure of the defense.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 05:52 PM
what? u need to rewatch the play buddy. gamble clearly take an angle that leads him inside barden. like thats just 100% fact and clear to see. it is why barden has the outside completely open for the turn after catch...

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:55 PM
what? u need to rewatch the play buddy. gamble clearly take an angle that leads him inside barden. like thats just 100% fact and clear to see. it is why barden has the outside completely open for the turn after catch...

Again, he takes an angle that if Barden continued up field after the slant, he would have met Gamble. But Barden spins back outside. He isnt undercutting the route. He is closing on Barden to make a tackle.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 05:55 PM
I shoulda said the angle he is taking is trying to undercut barden. he was behind him (which since he is trailing barden to an extent is another indication of man) but that was bc he played off technique and eli got the ball off. its ok, if u feel it was C3, i agree to disagree. I just felt the whole "bring a knife to a gun fight" remark was classless and uncalled for especially since u urself admitted u couldnt tell one way or the other. I believe it was man coverage. If u disagree thats fine, no worries, just dont ever like when some one(not u) who has an opinion, (questionable one at that) trying to impose it as fact onto someone who feels differently. we dont have the playbook or know the call. imo, i see it as clearly being man, u dont, great.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:56 PM
Are you talking to me? I never said anything about bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Either way, Gamble is still bailing after the snap, once the ball is coming out he does break on Ramses, Off man, I think, he would have never been bailing, he would have been reading for a quick throw, and would have been coming downhill as soon as Ramses cut.

CowboysSuck
09-22-2012, 05:56 PM
I don't know why some people on the board feel the need to disvalue Barden's performance. You can say you're not all you want, you can say you are just pointing out 'facts' and that you are being unbiased. I call BS. Barden deserves the credit, just give it to him.

Slip, I don't see you breaking down every play Osi was in. I know you love him, wheres the play-by-play breakdown of him? Oh thats right, you wouldnt do this to a player you love. Thus, this is a way to discredit a players performance. I'm not buying it. Whatever the defense did, i don't care. Barden had a big night. Period. End of story.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 05:57 PM
but i had to edit it when the comment was made that a corner should wait until the wr is a few feet away from him before turning to mirror him. that was an excellent way for Rnde Barber to get burned for a 80 yd TD

slip-no i edited my post

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 05:59 PM
I don't know why some people on the board feel the need to disvalue Barden's performance. You can say you're not all you want, you can say you are just pointing out 'facts' and that you are being unbiased. I call BS. Barden deserves the credit, just give it to him.

Slip, I don't see you breaking down every play Osi was in. I know you love him, wheres the play-by-play breakdown of him? Oh thats right, you wouldnt do this to a player you love. Thus, this is a way to discredit a players performance. I'm not buying it. Whatever the defense did, i don't care. Barden had a big night. Period. End of story.

How is breaking down plays discrediting a player? Explain. I will do a breakdown of whoever every week, I dont have time to breakdown all 53 players every week. Barden was the big news this week, so I did him.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:00 PM
slip- can u concede that at the least, Gamble played the same route by Barden completely different the two times he matched up on that slant?

its rhetorical bc i know he did. so if he played it 100% different, and 1 of the times was C3, wouldnt that mean the trail technique/taking an angle that would undercut the slant is then not C3?

TheEnigma
09-22-2012, 06:01 PM
I don't know why some people on the board feel the need to disvalue Barden's performance. You can say you're not all you want, you can say you are just pointing out 'facts' and that you are being unbiased. I call BS. Barden deserves the credit, just give it to him.

Slip, I don't see you breaking down every play Osi was in. I know you love him, wheres the play-by-play breakdown of him? Oh thats right, you wouldnt do this to a player you love. Thus, this is a way to discredit a players performance. I'm not buying it. Whatever the defense did, i don't care. Barden had a big night. Period. End of story.

Barden sort of just exploded onto the scene out of nowhere. I think Slip was genuinely curious about how exactly Barden was able to accomplish this feat. I'm sure he would do the same thing if Jernigan had a 150 yard game.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 06:01 PM
but i had to edit it when the comment was made that a corner should wait until the wr is a few feet away from him before turning to mirror him. that was an excellent way for Rnde Barber to get burned for a 80 yd TD

slip-no i edited my post

Yea, but Rhonde didnt move until Cruz ran right into him. In off man you can not bail right at the snap, Ramses never even started up field, he cut inside right at the snap. Theres no way in man off that Gamble should have been retreating there unless it was C3.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 06:02 PM
slip- can u concede that at the least, Gamble played the same route by Barden completely different the two times he matched up on that slant?

No, I dont think he did. Ill watch it again later. But both times he is bailing at the snap, then after the ball is being thrown he breaks to come down and make a tackle.

Im just going off memory now, when I watch them again I will let you know.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:04 PM
exactly. he did retreat on the 1rst slant. on the 2nd, its clear as day he didnt. he played the same route completely different each of the 2x. one was a C3 i acknowledged that immediately. the 2nd one, sorry aint no one convicning me he was c3 there, as he didnt retreat, as he played it completely diff than when he was in C3 cverage, as he trails and is taking an angle that wuld lead him to undercut the slant...nah, and for anyone to pretend they know 100% fact it was C3 and made a petty statement is completely hilarious and moronic (not saying u)

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:05 PM
cool lemme know. im watching it right now and its 10000% obvious that at the least, Gamble is playing the same route by barden completely different

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 06:05 PM
gamble plays the same route by barden completely different in the two instances he was matched on him. on 1, he doesnt attack the slant at all and continues the drop into zone; c3 (even tho I feel Gamble still coulda made an effort on the ball. i get that he has deep responsibility, but like the ex of a screen, just bc they arent attacking his zone doesnt mean he shouldnt make a football play but i digress).
the 2nd time defending it, he takes an angle to undercut the slant, and plays it entirely different. so i dunno how that could be a C3

Dude. i hate to come off like this but if you have never played Corner at all then you would not understand, especially by just watching the clip that does not even show him peddling back, even if it was for a yard. If it was man off, Gamble takes the angle to the ball was soon as he see's Eli's arm in a throw motion, he either jumps the route or is there to make the tackle, but because he peddle back initially, he got spun on by Barden who is not an elusive guy, THAT should tell you something.

When Pascoe motioned all LB's motioned with him not just one ALL. THAT should tell you something.
Norman Peddle back as well about a yard before runnning in. THAT should tell you something.

I watched the clip as well and i can understand why you would say that cause all you see coming into the screen is gamble getting stuck on the spin move, so its easy to say great spin move by barden to freeze the defender, but there is more to the play than that and just watching a clip is not going to tell all.

That's all i'm saying


Man you do NOT! back peddle at ALL! even for a yard or a half a step, you stay exactly on your 8 yard off and take angles to the routes, if its a quick pass

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:08 PM
lol, im watching the 22 angle right now and have been from the start. neverends clip just reminded me. its fine, go on thinking it was C3, i dont really care if u feel that way or not, no offense intended.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 06:09 PM
as he didnt retreat,

he did though, he clearly bails on both plays. The second time he does break a little quicker to try to help, but thats only after he was backing up.

Its either C3, or its horrible technique in off man.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:10 PM
just fyi, some one else mentioned it too, u do realize the clip neverend shows, shows diff angles, primarily the endzone cam zoomed in on bardens receptions. they showed that spin move play a couple times. its man coverage, at least imo, its clear as day. u feel otherwise, continue to do so.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:11 PM
slip- rewatch it when u get a chance and lemme know. im gonna ask a buddy of mine who played college ball

moosedrool
09-22-2012, 06:12 PM
I find it kinda funny with people saying "let's see what Barden does against a good CB". With Nicks and Cruz, he's not going to see the teams #1 or #2 CB all year. If Nicks is out, the opponent would have to have two good CB's, because Cruz will get the better CB in most cases.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 06:13 PM
slip- rewatch it when u get a chance and lemme know. im gonna ask a buddy of mine who played college ball

what clip are you watching? I cant watch my game rewind at the moment.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 06:14 PM
I find it kinda funny with people saying "let's see what Barden does against a good CB". With Nicks and Cruz, he's not going to see the teams #1 or #2 CB all year. If Nicks is out, the opponent would have to have two good CB's, because Cruz will get the better CB in most cases.

Well it depends on the team, but most teams arent going to have 5th round rookies out there covering Barden, either.

Next week he is going to be playing against DRC and Nnamdi, if Nicks plays or not.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:15 PM
the corner on cruz is playing man if that means anything, and the LB's werent dropping into any zones either, fwiw

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:15 PM
page 3, neverend posts highlights of bardes day. from like the :12 mark to :45 mark is the play live and replayed with the endzone cam

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:17 PM
and gamble isnt retreating the 2nd slant either. he is actually waiting on barden. it was off man.

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 06:18 PM
Im still not seeing this video.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:18 PM
another indicator. gamble on the first slant, has his hips opened to the inside. the 2nd slant, gambles hips are squared up with barden, classic off man technique

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 06:19 PM
lol oh my bad i switched my options to 20 posts every page, i beleve ur at 10 posts every page
so if its page 3 on mine it should be 6 for u

slipknottin
09-22-2012, 06:24 PM
Its C3. Both CBs are ready to bail, Norman does bail at the snap. LBs are keying run, now that I watch the play, it looks like it actually was a designed run. Eli decides to throw when he sees the CB off. Snee pulls, Pascoe is lead blocking, and Brown seems to be expecting the handoff.

When pascoe goes in motion all four of the defenders (3 LBs and the safety) all move, it has to be zone.

Cruz doesnt even run a route on that play, he comes inside to block the safety.

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 06:47 PM
SMH I'm done! I don't know how else to explain that.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 07:18 PM
explain what? your wrong imo rainer, clearly. i just brought up the cruz thing based on giving all the info on the play.

slant 1
slant 2

slant 1- Gamble has his hips opened, facing in, and backpedals clearly. when he sees Barden make the slant cut, he is still back pedaling.
slant 2- Gamble has his hips squared with Barden. He doesnt even backpedal, he actual moves towards Barden before he makes the slant cut. As soon as he does this, Gamble hauls ***. bc i guess it was a run that eli passed out of (i thought that may have happened too, the cruz thing confused me especially snce Norman trails Cruz's direction) and it was a quick slant, quick throw, gamble has zero chance of getting there. he clearly is trailing barden and taking an angle towards the inside of Barden. Before Barden even makes the catch, Gamble is inside him, which results in the wide open room to the outside.

Gamble played both slants completely 100000% differently. Gamble is 100% in man, not that it means anything but my buddy who played college ball Div II looked at it and came to the exact same conclusion and to him and me, its obvious gamble was in man there. the hips squared up with Barden (classic off man technique), trailing and taking an angle inside of Barden, classic man technique. How would Gamble be anywhere near where he was as Barden catches it if its a C3?

I can go "Smh, I'm done I dont know how he doesnt get this" too rainier. i dunno how u two cant tell the diff between how Gamble defends the two plays at the least...but eh, ok. u think it was C3 lmfao fine by me.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 07:19 PM
like notice where gamble is as barden catches it, if he's in a C3 zone there, i got a bridge on the moon to sell ya

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 07:21 PM
you don't know coverage schemes.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 07:22 PM
Gamble is nowhere near bailing on the 2nd slant either, what r u watching? he squares his hips with barden and then attacks the route bardens running lmao...over it.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 07:22 PM
you dont know coverage schemes. u are blatantly wrong and know so little about coverages, u believe u r right LMAO

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 07:24 PM
why are gambles hips open on the 1rst slant, then on the 2nd slant, why is gambles hips squared with barden?
why is gamble still 5 yds off barden on the first slant catch, but on the 2nd slant, he's inside barden?

no one likes being wrong, i get it. but when u start creating realities to be right, u have issues.

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 07:25 PM
lol gamble doesnt make the tackle on the first slant bc he's bailed, the 2nd slant, he's inside him...smh lol

giantsfan420
09-22-2012, 07:29 PM
mayock says "the ball is thrown outside which actually helps barden bc it leads him away from gamble."

if he's in zone right there, C3 especially, his assignment is his 1/3 of the field deep zone (meaning keep things inside of you), now HOW THE HELL IS GAMBLE INSIDE BARDEN??????

how would a throw outside, which leads barden AWAY from gamble, lead u to believe gambles in C3 AT ALL? smh. and the thing of it is, i went "u feel that way, good. i disagree. no offense." of course, u start with the "you dont know coverages" which is ironic considering how off u r on this

done with this.

rainierjef
09-22-2012, 07:29 PM
It's Okay. you trying to explain why its man vs zone, after stating you watched the A-22 tells me two things
1. you don't know how to differentiate a defensive line up before and after the snap
or
2. you have myopia or Hyperopia.

http://gickr.com/results3/anim_56a20da6-03a0-7024-e948-3ecba8edd06f.gif (http://gickr.com)

ELI_HOF_NYG
09-22-2012, 08:26 PM
The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play. http://i46.tinypic.com/xda7es.jpg

6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).


and?,,,,,who gives a darn, the kid had a good game and now lets see him build upon it. as fans of the new york giants lets support this kid and who knows. is it his fault the carolina secondary stinks? nope. did he look good regardless, yep. sometimes I wonder if some of you are really fans, always looking for a reason to tear somebody down, its pretty sad.

JJC7301
09-23-2012, 12:39 AM
The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play. http://i46.tinypic.com/xda7es.jpg

6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).
Thanks for the break down -- love that stuff. Panthers played a horrible D -- soft cover all night long, from the sound of it. Regardless, I now have MUCH faith in Barden -- especially when he's the # 3 along Nicks and Cruz. Although Carolina may have made it easy for him, I don't think this was a fluke -- I do think it was his coming out party.

mainefan
09-23-2012, 06:25 AM
I can only say that it feels great to see a fifteen page thread on a guy that doesn't have pro football ability. I supported him when Slip and all the experts on here were saying he'd never make it. Kind of makes me an expert among experts now doesn't it?

penguinfarmer
09-23-2012, 07:45 AM
I have no idea where this thread is going last few pages. It went from the game in its entirety to the first two slants.

shotcalla39
09-23-2012, 08:50 AM
I wasn't too high on barden because I felt we were kind of reaching for a tall rwciever to substitute for Plax... Barden seems to be coming along. I think it has more to do with him finally learning the ins and out of the playbook, the Panthers set their minds on stopping Cruz, and Eli manning being a beast... Those are the real reasons. Barden just isn't that explosive but he's showing he can run the correct routes and has soft hands... When nicks comes back he is a viable #3 for sure and I'm happy for him

Your analysis isn't 100 percent spot on because he played against some defenses that mixed man with zone but I get your point

Redeyejedi
09-23-2012, 10:55 AM
Does it matter if its Man or Zone. We can all agree the Panthers coverage was beyond dreadful correct. When I was watching the game before the All-22 2 plays stuck out with me. 1 was the Skinny post because im just not accustomed to seeing Barden run that well and the other was the bad throw by Eli the 6th catch. The concentration and hands Barden showed to snatch that was pretty impressive. His size helped him there for sure most guys probably wouldnt of seen the ball. Im happy he played well but I just didnt see anything special that a lot of WR's couldnt of done.

giantsfan420
09-23-2012, 11:09 AM
i respect that redeye. no my issue was with rainier. he called me clueless told me i dont know how to read defenses, that i bring a knife fight to a gun fight bc of mys tance lol among other sophomoric comments. and it does matter in that regard bc he's wrong. i really was hoping slip would not do what he typically does and refuse to admit to being wrong and just admit at the least, Gamble played both slants completely different.
Again, slant 1, Gamble has his hips opened towarsd the inside of the field, and is continuing to back pedal even as barden makes the slant cut, bc the slant is not his responsibility in a C3. Slip himself said that.
Then why on the 2nd slant, Gamble plays it with his hips squared to Barden as opposed to opened and facing inside, and hips squared to the wr by a corner is CLASSIC off man technique. But thats not all, Gamble trails Barden as he makes the slant cut, and Gamble actually takes an angle to undercut the slant. but bc the throw was so quick and gamble was 7 yds off, he had zero chance of making a play on the ball. Gamble clearly responds to the 2nd slant as his responsibility. Even further, I have ZERO idea how they could even call it a C3. Maybe its a zone, but a C3? Gamble, if its a C3, is responsible for his 1/3 side of the field and on deeper routes. Gamble, however, is NOWHERE NEAR THE C3 ZONE RESPONSIBILITY. how can it be C3, when the C3 zone Gamble should be playing according to Rainier, is completely vacated, which is what allowed Barden to turn outside and gain 25 yds...I mean its honestly not even disputable imo and its blatantly obvious.
but it doesnt even matter much bc the only reason this is brought up is bc slip said barden beat zone coverage on every reception and was matched up with Norman the entire game for every snap. Both statements were not accurate.
And I just find it hilarious bc rainer in typical fashion even tho i said literally "if u feel it was C3, cool, I could care less" which led to him calling me clueless and know nothing about defenses and posting lame attempts to instigate with an image of a crow or something lmfao when he's actually dead wrong.

and rainer has serious insecurity issues or something. he never can admit to being wrong while at the same time acting as if he knows everything. Example, when we signed both Bennett and Rivers, Rainer was telling ppl who were excited that we shouldnt be, that JR is questionable for making 2 poor roster moves, that Bennett needs to become a new person with new work ethic bc he was so lazy (he inferred all that from a cowboys fan in a thread that posted a 40 min workout clip of bennett. rainer w/o even watching it which he admitted, thought it was a 40 min real time wrkout and was calling him out for such a questionable easy workout lmfao. Even with the 3 games, JJ JG and Witten/Romo LITERALLY stating the opposite of what rainer said, and he still refuses to acknowledge how moronic his statements were. sorry for the rant, rainer just really gets to me ever since he literally said ( and meant it) that he is a much more superior, better person than me an a few others. Guy rubs a lot of ppl the wrong way.

giantsfan420
09-23-2012, 11:21 AM
slip when u read this i'd like ur answer. u said urself that in a c3, the slant isnt gambles responsibility at all. u said that when i said think a football player still should make a play on the slant even if its not hs responsibility. On the first slant, Gamble clearly continues his back pedal, and doesnt play the slant. He doesnt even attempt the tackle.
on the 2nd slant, why is gamble trying to undercut the upcoming slant, get caught inside of barden (which left the C3 zone responsibility completely vacated) and tried to make a play on the slant.

U cant have it both ways. Gamble plays both slants completely different. one was with clear zone technique, while the 2nd was with CLEAR man technique. the 1rst slant, Gamble is like 7 yds off barden and to the outside of him bc barden ran a slant. on the 2nd slant, Gamble is INSIDE barden after he squared his hips to barden, then attacked the slant (which again he wuldnt do if it was a C3)....how did u even come to the conclusion C3? Zone is one thing, it can be any zone. C3, well Gambles responsibility in a C3 is definable. His 1/3 of the field in a deep zone. On the 2nd slant tho, THERE IS NO ONE MAINTAINING THAT 1/3 of the field zone...ITS VACATED which is why Barden can turn OUTSIDE and gain 25 yds...like i am shocked and a lil disappointed i had to explain this how many times now? lmao at rainer for all his comments hahaha

YATittle1962
09-23-2012, 11:31 AM
broken record anyone ?

Mod_C
09-23-2012, 11:51 AM
No matter how good a game Barden had, and it was impressive, it was one game in three years. We need to see more similar performances before we polish up the crown. There are still some on here waiting for a Cruz to fail.

Flip Empty
09-23-2012, 11:57 AM
Here I was thinking he had a big game because he kept catching the balls that were thrown at him

Mod_C
09-23-2012, 12:03 PM
Here I was thinking he had a big game because he kept catching the balls that were thrown at him

No one has said it wasn't a big game for Ramses

poppa smurph
09-23-2012, 12:05 PM
You know, after reading all 16 pages of this thread breaking down Barden's play and the Panther's D, I'm still coming away with a proud feeling for the guy. He stepped up when he was called upon and executed the plays he was involved in.
As a fan, Barden supporter or detractor, that's all you can hope to see on game day. Wether it's against a soft zone or man to man, you still have to get off the line, run your route and catch the ball.
That's execution, a term that's flown around this site alot when it comes to defending Coaches on games lost ( player's executee the plays ). The man executed his plays when given the chance.
We've seen some of our more seasoned vets drop balls in situations where it's expected to be an easy catch and some of our jumpier posters are quick to call them out. Now we have a player making plays ( against a questionable defense I agree, but also a professional one ) and some of our more knowledged posters questioning the degree of difficulty.
Bottom line is he executed the plays, lets be appreciative of that. That our next man up motto is alive and kicking and maybe serving as the foundation for this bridge the team is trying to build.

RoanokeFan
09-23-2012, 12:06 PM
You know, after reading all 16 pages of this thread breaking down Barden's play and the Panther's D, I'm still coming away with a proud feeling for the guy. He stepped up when he was called upon and executed the plays he was involved in.
As a fan, Barden supporter or detractor, that's all you can hope to see on game day. Wether it's against a soft zone or man to man, you still have to get off the line, run your route and catch the ball.
That's execution, a term that's flown around this site alot when it comes to defending Coaches on games lost ( player's executee the plays ). The man executed his plays when given the chance.
We've seen some of our more seasoned vets drop balls in situations where it's expected to be an easy catch and some of our jumpier posters are quick to call them out. Now we have a player making plays ( against a questionable defense I agree, but also a professional one ) and some of our more knowledged posters questioning the degree of difficulty.
Bottom line is he executed the plays, lets be appreciative of that. That our next man up motto is alive and kicking and maybe serving as the foundation for this bridge the team is trying to build.


+1

penguinfarmer
09-23-2012, 12:19 PM
Make that 2.

BeatYale
09-23-2012, 12:32 PM
"Ramses Barden has played well every time he's played," Reese said. "He has just been injured. That's all."

"I have seen a lot of guys after their third year enter their fourth year and turn it on," Reese said. "Amani Toomer comes to mind. His first three years, he was trying to get it, trying to get it.

just found these quotes by JR interesting.

What's so interesting about a GM saying something good about a player he drafted?

Tmurda1984
09-23-2012, 12:42 PM
The Giants are a big play offense, I think the Panthers were scared of Cruz and even Bennett getting behind their coverage. They watched Talib who got burned deep each play going man to man and seen Bennett make huge plays against the secondary. I think the Panthers played a bend and dont break defense because the Giants usually settle for field goals if they dont make that Big Play TD. The Panthers also did not get a Pass Rush from their big money DE C. Johnson and the panthers has alot of young developing talent on that defensive line. If I was the Panthers corners I would of force Barden to the sideline to see if he had the awareness to catch the ball and keep his feet in bounds which I think he struggles with. I think the Panthers was respecting Giant's big play offense and felt like they could stop us to field goals....which they did several times. Andre Brown killed them in the goal line for TD's and it messed up their gameplan.

Husky
09-23-2012, 12:50 PM
Insightful evaluation, thanks.

Sundown
09-23-2012, 01:01 PM
Im not going to read all 17 pages so this may have been brought up but what Barden did was impressive and will most likely continue given the CBs he will face. Just from him being the 3rd wideout he'll most likely face the weakest Cb of each team. Can he do that against tuff coverage on a #1 CB? Most likely not but on a 3rd Cb? Yea he can def win that macthup and thats all you hope for.

Redeyejedi
09-23-2012, 01:06 PM
At least we r questioning how well he played instead of how bad. I will say this about Barden that even though I didnt think the plays made were anything on the degree of difficulty I saw from Hakeem Nicks last week he did make them. This is what the defense gave ,so he took it. He didnt drop the ball or shy away from contact like Victor Cruz did. He showed great hands and concentration throughout the game. He was on the same page with Eli which isnt always that easy. Some of those routes Barden ran are kind of dangerous. If Eli throws the ball high in the middle of the field like that and it goes off his hands into the air we could have problems.So maybe he wasnt dragging a CB and a safety on his back making it look easy like Hakeem but he did get his job done. Maybe I didnt give him enough credit for that

Tmurda1984
09-23-2012, 01:09 PM
Im not going to read all 17 pages so this may have been brought up but what Barden did was impressive and will most likely continue given the CBs he will face. Just from him being the 3rd wideout he'll most likely face the weakest Cb of each team. Can he do that against tuff coverage on a #1 CB? Most likely not but on a 3rd Cb? Yea he can def win that macthup and thats all you hope for.

You are right because its not like Barden is our number 1 receiver. I dont understand why people keeping saying I want him to see him do it to Nnamdi. If fans want that, that means fans want Nicks to sit out again. Barden is that type of guy to create a mismatch while defenses are figuring out how to stop Cruz, Nicks, and Bennett. And Barden has looked better than Dominic Hixon who never stays healthy, how does Hixon continue to make the team.

penguinfarmer
09-23-2012, 01:12 PM
Well, if Nicks comes back and Barden is also on the field, he'll likely match up against Nnamdi or DRC [who has been playing lights out lately] next week with Cruz in the slot.

TheEnigma
09-23-2012, 01:16 PM
You are right because its not like Barden is our number 1 receiver. I dont understand why people keeping saying I want him to see him do it to Nnamdi. If fans want that, that means fans want Nicks to sit out again. Barden is that type of guy to create a mismatch while defenses are figuring out how to stop Cruz, Nicks, and Bennett. And Barden has looked better than Dominic Hixon who never stays healthy, how does Hixon continue to make the team.

Nnamdi is mentioned (at least by me) because he would be the most likely candidate to cover Barden in next week's game and that just happens to be the Eagles. The actual truth is I just want to see him continue this level of play (no, not 130 yards a game) against more polished CBs which Josh Norman was not. Maybe it will be DRC. Either way, both of those guys should give us a better insight into the new Barden.

RoanokeFan
09-23-2012, 02:06 PM
You are right because its not like Barden is our number 1 receiver. I dont understand why people keeping saying I want him to see him do it to Nnamdi. If fans want that, that means fans want Nicks to sit out again. Barden is that type of guy to create a mismatch while defenses are figuring out how to stop Cruz, Nicks, and Bennett. And Barden has looked better than Dominic Hixon who never stays healthy, how does Hixon continue to make the team. Hixon is on the team. We have a long season ahead. TC will involve all the players who can help win games.

rainierjef
09-23-2012, 02:49 PM
i respect that redeye. no my issue was with rainier. he called me clueless told me i dont know how to read defenses, that i bring a knife fight to a gun fight bc of mys tance lol among other sophomoric comments. and it does matter in that regard bc he's wrong. i really was hoping slip would not do what he typically does and refuse to admit to being wrong and just admit at the least, Gamble played both slants completely different.
Again, slant 1, Gamble has his hips opened towarsd the inside of the field, and is continuing to back pedal even as barden makes the slant cut, bc the slant is not his responsibility in a C3. Slip himself said that.
Then why on the 2nd slant, Gamble plays it with his hips squared to Barden as opposed to opened and facing inside, and hips squared to the wr by a corner is CLASSIC off man technique. But thats not all, Gamble trails Barden as he makes the slant cut, and Gamble actually takes an angle to undercut the slant. but bc the throw was so quick and gamble was 7 yds off, he had zero chance of making a play on the ball. Gamble clearly responds to the 2nd slant as his responsibility. Even further, I have ZERO idea how they could even call it a C3. Maybe its a zone, but a C3? Gamble, if its a C3, is responsible for his 1/3 side of the field and on deeper routes. Gamble, however, is NOWHERE NEAR THE C3 ZONE RESPONSIBILITY. how can it be C3, when the C3 zone Gamble should be playing according to Rainier, is completely vacated, which is what allowed Barden to turn outside and gain 25 yds...I mean its honestly not even disputable imo and its blatantly obvious.
but it doesnt even matter much bc the only reason this is brought up is bc slip said barden beat zone coverage on every reception and was matched up with Norman the entire game for every snap. Both statements were not accurate.
And I just find it hilarious bc rainer in typical fashion even tho i said literally "if u feel it was C3, cool, I could care less" which led to him calling me clueless and know nothing about defenses and posting lame attempts to instigate with an image of a crow or something lmfao when he's actually dead wrong.

and rainer has serious insecurity issues or something. he never can admit to being wrong while at the same time acting as if he knows everything. Example, when we signed both Bennett and Rivers, Rainer was telling ppl who were excited that we shouldnt be, that JR is questionable for making 2 poor roster moves, that Bennett needs to become a new person with new work ethic bc he was so lazy (he inferred all that from a cowboys fan in a thread that posted a 40 min workout clip of bennett. rainer w/o even watching it which he admitted, thought it was a 40 min real time wrkout and was calling him out for such a questionable easy workout lmfao. Even with the 3 games, JJ JG and Witten/Romo LITERALLY stating the opposite of what rainer said, and he still refuses to acknowledge how moronic his statements were. sorry for the rant, rainer just really gets to me ever since he literally said ( and meant it) that he is a much more superior, better person than me an a few others. Guy rubs a lot of ppl the wrong way.

All I have to say to this is, grow up, Red and I both said the same thing to you, but because we have had a colorful past, you chose to key in on my words. We both tried to explain it to you, even after I said I was done, don't know how to explain that, how did you respond? like you always do "your wrong." that gets annoying after a while, especially when I went out of my way to be civil and explain what was going on.
Like said Grow up dude, no one is internet beefing with you, but you seem to enjoy it.

and stop twisting words kid, i said your bringing a knife to a gun fight if your watching a clip and debating with people that are studying the All-22 film

Clearly you have the insecurity issues by your last paragraph, I did not know i was in your head this much. bringing up stuff that not pertinent to this debate, screams insecurity. I believe you were the only one arguing that the two first passes were Man or man off. No one if I recall agreed with your stance, or backed you up. why didn't you Tee-off on Slip me and him basically said the same thing regarding the defensive scheme's?
"that he is a much more superior, better person than me an a few others. Guy rubs a lot of ppl the wrong way." This...is sad!
You really need to stop trying convince people I am this pompous above everyone Know it all, because i can debate with others and things be cool after, but with you; you're holding on to something, let it go...no one cares anymore.

giantsfan420
09-23-2012, 03:05 PM
dude, u have bad recollection of things. the posts are in the thread. i wasnt even trying to debate with u as its pointless i was talking with slip. i commented to u that if u felt it was c3 that was fine and i didnt care....in the middle f me and slip debating, u told me i dont know how to read defenses, posted that myopism or whatever it was with that .gif AND YOU WERE BEING CIVIL? this is how outta whack u are. i suggest u go thru and reread the interaction between us this thread again bc ur description of it is incorrect. over it and done with it. i brought up the bennett issue bc it serves a point, not bc ur in my head at all lol if anything i try and ignore u but its impossible when u tell me i dont know football and post gifs AFTER i said "if u feel that way, cool. no offense intended."

this is old and played out and theres a simple fix to this which i will take now.
oh and u absolutely said u were far superior to me and a better person. and thats why i consider u to be a jerk. im not lying about u saying that, u did. if im lying about that, i will damn my soul to hell. i can say that bc im not lying, u said those things and were serious. peace

rainierjef
09-23-2012, 03:08 PM
correction! that was after you told me "I was wrong!"
I have no problem admitting I was wrong, I said "I'm done, don't know how else to explain that."
you went off in a rant starting with i am wrong.
i told you, you did not know how to read defenses.
I think you need to go recall your words and not twist them like you usually do.

giantsfan420
09-23-2012, 03:13 PM
giantsfan420
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lol, im watching the 22 angle right now and have been from the start. neverends clip just reminded me. its fine, go on thinking it was C3, i dont really care if u feel that way or not, no offense intended.
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rainierjef
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SMH I'm done! I don't know how else to explain that.
_____________________________________________expla in what? your wrong imo rainer, clearly. i just brought up the cruz thing based on giving all the info on the play.

slant 1
slant 2

slant 1- Gamble has his hips opened, facing in, and backpedals clearly. when he sees Barden make the slant cut, he is still back pedaling.
slant 2- Gamble has his hips squared with Barden. He doesnt even backpedal, he actual moves towards Barden before he makes the slant cut. As soon as he does this, Gamble hauls ***. bc i guess it was a run that eli passed out of (i thought that may have happened too, the cruz thing confused me especially snce Norman trails Cruz's direction) and it was a quick slant, quick throw, gamble has zero chance of getting there. he clearly is trailing barden and taking an angle towards the inside of Barden. Before Barden even makes the catch, Gamble is inside him, which results in the wide open room to the outside.

Gamble played both slants completely 100000% differently. Gamble is 100% in man, not that it means anything but my buddy who played college ball Div II looked at it and came to the exact same conclusion and to him and me, its obvious gamble was in man there. the hips squared up with Barden (classic off man technique), trailing and taking an angle inside of Barden, classic man technique. How would Gamble be anywhere near where he was as Barden catches it if its a C3?

I can go "Smh, I'm done I dont know how he doesnt get this" too rainier. i dunno how u two cant tell the diff between how Gamble defends the two plays at the least...but eh, ok. u think it was C3 lmfao fine by me.
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rainierjef
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you don't know coverage schemes.
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rainierjef
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It's Okay. you trying to explain why its man vs zone, after stating you watched the A-22 tells me two things
1. you don't know how to differentiate a defensive line up before and after the snap
or
2. you have myopia or Hyperopia.

____________________________________

wait, i just read ur last post. So u can tell me I'm wrong, "shake your head and say your done", and the rest of ur bs, but I can't say your wrong? again, serious ego issues. this was our back n forth from beginning to ur lil gf posted. i rest my case, over it. done. ur ignored. have a good one.

oh, and it is 100000% man coverage just fyi

Mod_C
09-23-2012, 03:17 PM
This has now become a duel so I'm closing the thread. If anyone other than the combatants wants to add anything, let me know and I'll reopen the thread.