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View Full Version : Should the Giants rethink the "Always start the most senior veteran available" policy



Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:10 PM
Personally, I think some bad personnel decisions were made. Instead of always starting the most senior vet available, we should start who would play the matchups the best. Osi is crap against the run, we've known this for eons, yet we started him at left DE, while Tuck was stuck at DT. A line of Tuck-Joseph-Austin-JPP would have been much better, while saving Osi for those 3rd and long situations. Putting Webster on Jackson seemed okay, but I would have rather had someone like Prince on him (and if Hosley had been available, I would have matched him up instead). On the offensive side, giving Bradshaw the bulk of carries when Brown could have abused that wide 9 crap up the middle ruined our running game.

This is all for the eagles. The starters today would have played much better against a pure pocket passer. Yet TC clearly knows that ***** is NOT a pocket passer... which makes me scratch my head more.

joemorrisforprez
10-01-2012, 04:20 PM
Personally, I think some bad personnel decisions were made. Instead of always starting the most senior vet available, we should start who would play the matchups the best. Osi is crap against the run, we've known this for eons, yet we started him at left DE, while Tuck was stuck at DT. A line of Tuck-Joseph-Austin-JPP would have been much better, while saving Osi for those 3rd and long situations. Putting Webster on Jackson seemed okay, but I would have rather had someone like Prince on him (and if Hosley had been available, I would have matched him up instead). On the offensive side, giving Bradshaw the bulk of carries when Brown could have abused that wide 9 crap up the middle ruined our running game.

This is all for the eagles. The starters today would have played much better against a pure pocket passer. Yet TC clearly knows that ***** is NOT a pocket passer... which makes me scratch my head more.

Not to spam this point, but I predicted the Giants would lose this game if Bradshaw started.

It didn't help that the Giants went pass-happy against a defense designed to stop the pass.

I blame coaching 100% for this loss.....same bull**** playcalling that has now lost 8 of 9 v. Eagles.

Wilson is ripping it up........ Andre Brown was balling.......let's give the ball to the guy with the bad neck.

Let's see how it works out........39 rushing yards.......Brilliant!!!!!

Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:22 PM
Not to spam this point, but I predicted the Giants would lose this game if Bradshaw started.

It didn't help that the Giants went pass-happy against a defense designed to stop the pass.

I blame coaching 100% for this loss.....same bull**** playcalling that has now lost 8 of 9 v. Eagles.

Wilson is ripping it up........ Andre Brown was balling.......let's give the ball to the guy with the bad neck.

Let's see how it works out........39 rushing yards.......Brilliant!!!!!

It was your point that prompted me to start this thread. It's not just at running back that these problems occur. It seems like you see someone like Brown or Randle for one or two snaps and then they get taken out again. Not enough reps to determine if they would break out or not.

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:24 PM
Personally, I think some bad personnel decisions were made. Instead of always starting the most senior vet available, we should start who would play the matchups the best. Osi is crap against the run, we've known this for eons, yet we started him at left DE, while Tuck was stuck at DT. A line of Tuck-Joseph-Austin-JPP would have been much better, while saving Osi for those 3rd and long situations. Putting Webster on Jackson seemed okay, but I would have rather had someone like Prince on him (and if Hosley had been available, I would have matched him up instead). On the offensive side, giving Bradshaw the bulk of carries when Brown could have abused that wide 9 crap up the middle ruined our running game.


This is all for the eagles. The starters today would have played much better against a pure pocket passer. Yet TC clearly knows that ***** is NOT a pocket passer... which makes me scratch my head more.
That has never been their policy as far as I can tell.
Its always to start the BEST players. That's how you win 2 SB's.

Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:27 PM
That has never been their policy as far as I can tell.
Its always to start the BEST players. That's how you win 2 SB's.

Clearly the Giants didn't start the BEST for the given situation in every position though... Bradshaw was still hurt, Tuck is out of position again, and Osi is too hotheaded to try and contain... Maybe those starts would be the BEST for a different situation, but not this one...

Eliscruzzz
10-01-2012, 04:29 PM
Bradshaw ran hard he did do well at times....also we had to throw late cause we were behind.

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:30 PM
Clearly the Giants didn't start the BEST for the given situation in every position though... Bradshaw was still hurt, Tuck is out of position again, and Osi is too hotheaded to try and contain... Maybe those starts would be the BEST for a different situation, but not this one...
So who are we starting over Tuck and Osi?

GameTime
10-01-2012, 04:32 PM
Bradshaw ran hard he did do well at times....also we had to throw late cause we were behind.
3 ypc.....ehh. No that good.
They were lacking rythem on offense. Defense forgot to be disciplined.

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:33 PM
Clearly the Giants didn't start the BEST for the given situation in every position though... Bradshaw was still hurt, Tuck is out of position again, and Osi is too hotheaded to try and contain... Maybe those starts would be the BEST for a different situation, but not this one...
You can argue wether or not Bradshaw was the best option....That's fine. But there is no reason to believe that TC played Bradshaw over Brown because he was "senior" to Brown. TC started Bradshaw because he tought that Bradshaw gave us the best chance to win the friggin football game.

And I LOVE all the Brown love here after essentially one game against a bad defense.

Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:33 PM
So who are we starting over Tuck and Osi?

Start tuck on left end and bench osi vs mobile QBs, and vice versa for pocket passers. Linval and Marvin or Kuhn in the middle until Canty comes back...

Also we need Ojomo to get healthy soon... I don't want him to just be a preseason wonder...

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:34 PM
3 ypc.....ehh. No that good.
They were lacking rythem on offense. Defense forgot to be disciplined.
Brown had 2.8.

Eliscruzzz
10-01-2012, 04:35 PM
3 ypc.....ehh. No that good.
They were lacking rythem on offense. Defense forgot to be disciplined.True but he did have a couple moments he is just not Mccoy. Eagles are just good against the run they have 10 different d-lineman and ours were winded...plus Canty was missed that game he is one of our best at stopping the run....can't wait till he gets back.

Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:35 PM
You can argue wether or not Bradshaw was the best option....That's fine. But there is no reason to believe that TC played Bradshaw over Brown because he was "senior" to Brown. TC started Bradshaw because he tought that Bradshaw gave us the best chance to win the friggin football game.

And I LOVE all the Brown love here after essentially one game against a bad defense.

Is Brown "better" than Bradshaw? No
Is Brown better suited to run vs the Eagles than Bradshaw? Yes.

That wide 9 formation is better at covering runs to the outside, which Bradshaw is better at doing, but leaves a gap in the middle, which Brown is more adept at taking advantage of.

It's all about matchups.

PS: don't give me crap about how Brown had 0.2 less YPC than Bradshaw. Had Brown split the load 50/50 with Bradshaw his YPC would have been higher.

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:36 PM
Start tuck on left end and bench osi vs mobile QBs, and vice versa for pocket passers. Linval and Marvin or Kuhn in the middle until Canty comes back...

Also we need Ojomo to get healthy soon... I don't want him to just be a preseason wonder...
But you just said that Tuck was a problem last night. I don't get your point.
Plus, we rotate our D linemen. They essentially all play. I believe thats good strategy.
I thought Rocky played well last night.

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:37 PM
Is Brown "better" than Bradshaw? No
Is Brown better suited to run vs the Eagles than Bradshaw? Yes.

That wide 9 formation is better at covering runs to the outside, which Bradshaw is better at doing, but leaves a gap in the middle, which Brown is more adept at taking advantage of.

It's all about matchups.
And what is it that you are basing this on?
What are the "matchups" that favor Brown over Bradshaw?
Bradshaw runs very tough inside.

GameTime
10-01-2012, 04:38 PM
Brown had 2.8.
he only ran 5 times....
the run game sucks.....not dogging Bradshaw just commenting that on what the other poster said about the game

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:39 PM
he only ran 5 times....
the run game sucks.....not dogging Bradshaw just commenting that on what the other poster said about the game
But the matchup was supposedly so great for Brown over Bradshaw. Why didn't he have a more productive time with those 5 carries?

Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:41 PM
But you just said that Tuck was a problem last night. I don't get your point.
Plus, we rotate our D linemen. They essentially all play. I believe thats good strategy.
I thought Rocky played well last night.

Tuck was a problem because he's playing out of position. He's not going to overpursue and let Vick get around him like Osi did, but he can't do crap from the DT position.

I know we rotate our D linemen, but still we keep getting beat repeatedly with the same damn run to the outside, and for some reason Osi is there looking like a freaking ballerina every time.

As for Brown, I'm basing it off the fact that there's an exposed gap in the middle because the left DE is lined up wide. It makes it easier to pursue an off-tackle run or a cutback (which bradshaw does most of the time), but harder to pursue a run up the middle (brown's specialty)...

GameTime
10-01-2012, 04:43 PM
But the matchup was supposedly so great for Brown over Bradshaw. Why didn't he have a more productive time with those 5 carries?
the better question is why did he only have 5 carries when Bradshaw wasnt doing much either. I though maybe he was hurt. The match up would seem running up the middle on the wide 9 would be better then outside runs. Either way I think both backs can run the middle well. we have allsee Bradshaw do it. Brown is still somewhat of an unknow to us. A couple of decent games and thats it. I just figured he would have gotten more reps.

RoanokeFan
10-01-2012, 04:43 PM
Clearly the Giants didn't start the BEST for the given situation in every position though... Bradshaw was still hurt, Tuck is out of position again, and Osi is too hotheaded to try and contain... Maybe those starts would be the BEST for a different situation, but not this one...

Brown got about half the carries of Bradshaw and got about half as many yards. I think Brown did look better than Bradshaw, but not so much so they should have taken Bradshaw out. These kinds of calla are made by a coaching staff that hasn't had a losing season.

The Oline of Panthers' fame didn't show up or the DLine of Panthers fame didn't show up

Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:43 PM
Also, Bradshaw's 3YPC is actually a stat inflated by that 20 yard run that he did manage to break. Had Brown gotten a chance to break out, his YPC would have been much higher.

I'm still not saying Bradshaw should have been taken out, just saying that the load should have been 50/50 as opposed to 70/30. That one 3rd and short where Brown was in, and then a Timeout was called and Bradshaw came in... I was yelling at my TV. Brown is perfect for 3rd and short dives.

FUUFNF
10-01-2012, 04:43 PM
And I LOVE all the Brown love here after essentially one game against a bad defense.

The Bucs have a pretty good run defense, and Brown was pretty successful against them... Panthers are the 8th worst.

GameTime
10-01-2012, 04:46 PM
Brown got about half the carries of Bradshaw and got about half as many yards. I think Brown did look better than Bradshaw, but not so much so they should have taken Bradshaw out. These kinds of calla are made by a coaching staff that hasn't had a losing season.

The Oline of Panthers' fame didn't show up or the DLine of Panthers fame didn't show up
42 passing attempts to 19 running attempts. 13 AB1 ......5 AB2......1 Hyno......
theres a prob right there....

G.I. Ants
10-01-2012, 04:47 PM
Bradshaw looked great out there, it's just the offense started pass heavy with little success. It was a good move IMO to let Bradshaw get early reps and mix it up with Brown, who also showed some flashes. I do think that the offense has improved the run blocking big time compared to last year. Wilson finally starting to get out of the doghouse as well as gaining confidence.

giantsfan420
10-01-2012, 04:47 PM
it wasnt as if the OL was putrid or something either. i certainly didnt notice them pentrating and blowing up the backfield or something. bradshaw just did not have many quality runs, 5, MAYBE 10 if that. he has a bad habit of having quick feet with no purpose as he approaches the LOS. he should be running hard and decisive but he's running with hesistation and being indecisive. i am a big bradshaw fan too, but he isnt running like the bradshaw i knew.

the guy who was successful would plant his foot down and explode through a hole and keep his legs churning. he used a lot less needless steps, and was violent with it. now he's almost like a finesse back. really. how would u describe his play from this season only? i wouldnt say a bruiser or speed type back, he's been using finesse on draw plays that the pass sets up. he aint breaking tackles...

G.I. Ants
10-01-2012, 04:48 PM
Also, Bradshaw's 3YPC is actually a stat inflated by that 20 yard run that he did manage to break. Had Brown gotten a chance to break out, his YPC would have been much higher.

I'm still not saying Bradshaw should have been taken out, just saying that the load should have been 50/50 as opposed to 70/30. That one 3rd and short where Brown was in, and then a Timeout was called and Bradshaw came in... I was yelling at my TV. Brown is perfect for 3rd and short dives.That 3rd down play threw me off as well, I didn't get that one at all.

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:50 PM
Tuck was a problem because he's playing out of position. He's not going to overpursue and let Vick get around him like Osi did, but he can't do crap from the DT position.

I know we rotate our D linemen, but still we keep getting beat repeatedly with the same damn run to the outside, and for some reason Osi is there looking like a freaking ballerina every time.


As for Brown, I'm basing it off the fact that there's an exposed gap in the middle because the left DE is lined up wide. It makes it easier to pursue an off-tackle run or a cutback (which bradshaw does most of the time), but harder to pursue a run up the middle (brown's specialty)...

Osi just plain sucks as a run stopper. And he essntially sucks at everything but a speed rush in clear passing situations. I've been saying this for a few years and been getting crap from most posters over it.

As for Bradshaw..I'm goiung by memory but I don't remember his breaking to the outside, I remember a lot of off guard runs.

Toadofsteel
10-01-2012, 04:53 PM
Osi just plain sucks as a run stopper. And he seesntially sucks at everything but a speed rush in clear passing situations. I've been saying this for a few years and been getting crap from most posters over it.

As for Bradshaw..I'm goiung by memory but I don't remember his breaking to the outside, I remember a lot of off guard runs.

I fully agree that Osi is crap against the run, and have agreed for some time. And TC knows this, as well as the fact that Philly is a run-oriented team with ***** and Gaga over there. Why Osi started is beyond me.

There were a mix of off guard and off tackle runs by Bradshaw. Funny thing is his 20 yard "breakout" came on an off-guard; those types of runs best expose a wide 9 set just because you're automatically at the second level as long as you get any hole at all. Again, i'm not saying Bradshaw should have been taken out or removed from starting, just that the carries there should have been 50/50.

Morehead State
10-01-2012, 04:58 PM
I fully agree that Osi is crap against the run, and have agreed for some time. And TC knows this, as well as the fact that Philly is a run-oriented team with ***** and Gaga over there. Why Osi started is beyond me.

There were a mix of off guard and off tackle runs by Bradshaw. Funny thing is his 20 yard "breakout" came on an off-guard; those types of runs best expose a wide 9 set just because you're automatically at the second level as long as you get any hole at all. Again, i'm not saying Bradshaw should have been taken out or removed from starting, just that the carries there should have been 50/50.
I don't know the breakdown but it seemed to me that Bradshaw ran much better in the second half.
But I get TC not wanting to fall in love with a kid after one game against a bad defense. This is the friggin Eagles for God's sake. Now all of the sudden we are deciding that a kid who's been bouncing around the league for 4 years or so who had one and a half good games with us, is better suited to beat the Eagles than Bradshaw...Well thats where you and I may disagree.
That sampling is WAY too small to make that assessment.

joemorrisforprez
10-01-2012, 05:00 PM
Bradshaw ran hard he did do well at times....also we had to throw late cause we were behind.

Bradshaw ran as well as Bradshaw can run.

We have better running backs than Bradshaw...... Andre Brown has been better this season. Wilson was unreal last night....the dude ran like a cruise missile.

Instead, we stick with Bradshaw for 39 yards.....and another loss against the Birds.

The line had zero sacks against one of the best pass rushes in the league.

Wilson gave the Giants a short field for most of the game.....Gilbride pissed all over it with his "Instant Loss Recipe" game plan......as usual.