PDA

View Full Version : Has Mathias Kiwanuka ever made a big play?



Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:04 PM
Of course I am being a little facetious when I ask the question, but my only memory of any significant play in Kiwanuka's career was playing the Titans in Vince Young's rookie year when and Kiwanuka didn't complete the sack on Young which ultimately cost the Giants the game.

JPP makes plays. Boley makes plays. In years past Tuck and Osi made plays. But for a guy who seemingly gets a lot of respect around here not to mention a new contract I never hear his name mentioned on any broadcasts of any of the Giant games. He seems invisible. The guy has 7 tackles in 4 games this year. If he is too big and slow to play LB, perhaps its time for him to transition back to the line.

burier
10-02-2012, 02:12 PM
We screwed the guy by making him play out of position. He's a really good player but he's not a great linebacker.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:15 PM
I agree, I think he has been playing out of position. But this isn't a new development, he has been average at best for years at LB. A guy like this doesn't need to be playing in space. A guy this big should be rushing the QB.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 02:17 PM
I have no idea why you guys keep saying this....KIWI was one of the top rated linebackers in the NFL vs the run last year......a linebackers job is to defend the run....how is he not doing a good job?.....some just do not get it....as opposed to someone like OSI that makes 3-4 spectacular plays a year and misses the rest...I'll take the guy that makes all the plays and doesn't get the spotlight

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:28 PM
I have no idea why you guys keep saying this....KIWI was one of the top rated linebackers in the NFL vs the run last year......a linebackers job is to defend the run....how is he not doing a good job?.....some just do not get it....as opposed to someone like OSI that makes 3-4 spectacular plays a year and misses the rest...I'll take the guy that makes all the plays and doesn't get the spotlight

Im sorry but if the guy was such an elite run-stopper he wouldn't have 7 tackles in 4 games.

And I'm not defending Osi, he sucks too.

Martyr
10-02-2012, 02:29 PM
One bad game and players start getting singled out, like Fanince69 says he plays the run very well and will blow up fullbacks.

I Hate T.O.
10-02-2012, 02:30 PM
Im sorry but if the guy was such an elite run-stopper he wouldn't have 7 tackles in 4 games.

And I'm not defending Osi, he sucks too.

+1

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 02:32 PM
Im sorry but if the guy was such an elite run-stopper he wouldn't have 7 tackles in 4 games.

And I'm not defending Osi, he sucks too.

It's not just about tackles it is about gap discipline and forcing the RB into your arms for a tackle or someone else's arms for a tackle. If he is playing disciplined run defense when given the opportunity to he will force RB's into someone's tackle for little or no gain.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 02:33 PM
Im sorry but if the guy was such an elite run-stopper he wouldn't have 7 tackles in 4 games.

And I'm not defending Osi, he sucks too.

How many tackles someone has is a bull **** stat most times anyway...how many missed tackles does he have? how many times have they run the ball his way?how many times has he sealed the edge and forced the play inside? when you can provide those numbers then we will talk about tackles... ?

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 02:34 PM
How many tackles someone has is a bull **** stat most times anyway...how many missed tackles does he have? how many times have they run the ball his way?how many times has he sealed the edge and forced the play inside? when you can provide those numbers then we will talk about tackles... ?

Bingo we have a winner, I said similar in my reply. We are on the same wavelength lol.

giantsfan420
10-02-2012, 02:34 PM
my god. such bandwagoners. we just won a friggin SB...we're 2-2 tho so we prob should question every player and abort ship, blow it up n start anew

giantsfan420
10-02-2012, 02:36 PM
riverboat, and u do realize that PFF rated Kiwi one of the top rated LB's vs the run, right? and that last yr he had a bunch of TFL, iirc 4 or 5 sacks, and an int IIRC...guy balls.
would i like to see him at DE more than LB? YES.

but dude has made a career of making plays for the Giants...lets not second guess JR on everyone

fansince69
10-02-2012, 02:37 PM
Bingo we have a winner, I said similar in my reply. We are on the same wavelength lol.


too many so called fans just look at the stats and make an assumption not really understanding the stat.....there are many stats that can be quoted to make almost any argument.....look at ALL the stats and watch how a player plays within the team concept ...that is how you judge

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:38 PM
This is what I don't understand, the people crawling out of the woodwork to defend this guy. Look, Navorro Bowman is an elite run-stopper. He doesnt drive the runner into other peoples arms, he simply makes the tackles. 45 of them in 4 games in fact.

Rudyy
10-02-2012, 02:39 PM
Are we analyzing every single player on the team now? Lol

fansince69
10-02-2012, 02:39 PM
This is what I don't understand, the people crawling out of the woodwork to defend this guy. Look, Navorro Bowman is an elite run-stopper. He doesnt drive the runner into other peoples arms, he simply makes the tackles. 45 of them in 4 games in fact.

again with stats that don't mean anything on their own...unbelievable

giantsfan420
10-02-2012, 02:41 PM
yea your right. we're 4 games into the season, we have enough info on everyone. every player in the NFL who hasnt been all pro yet needs to be questioned...

like do u hear urself think? kiwi has made tons of plays over the years. he hasnt dominated this season, ill grant u that. but osi, tuck, virtually everyone on D falls under that description.

outta this thread, dont mean to sound like a jerk, but cmon dude. guy is a solid player who has moved to lb and de over n over...

giantsfan420
10-02-2012, 02:41 PM
right rudy? lmao we're 2-2 AND FOUR GAMES INTO A LONG YEAR...we just won the friggin SB no less...

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:41 PM
How many tackles someone has is a bull **** stat most times anyway...how many missed tackles does he have? how many times have they run the ball his way?how many times has he sealed the edge and forced the play inside? when you can provide those numbers then we will talk about tackles... ?

Yes, of course, because making tackles as a LB is apparently not important.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 02:42 PM
This is what I don't understand, the people crawling out of the woodwork to defend this guy. Look, Navorro Bowman is an elite run-stopper. He doesnt drive the runner into other peoples arms, he simply makes the tackles. 45 of them in 4 games in fact.

Lol, this is ridiculous. He makes tackles good for him but I am sure he does things that gets other teammates tackles also and vice versa. Who cares as long as the RB is driven into the turf for minimal or no gain when Kiwi or any other LB'er for that matter in the NFL does their job.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:43 PM
again with stats that don't mean anything on their own...unbelievable

Originally, I wasn't going to say anything about the stats. I didn't even know the stats before I started writing this thread. I simply have never seen him make a play. And then I looked at his stats and it illustrated my point.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:47 PM
Lol, this is ridiculous. He makes tackles good for him but I am sure he does things that gets other teammates tackles also. Who cares as long as the RB is driven into the turf for minimal or no gain when Kiwi or any other LB'er in the NFL does their job.

Oh wait, so you're saying the Giants defense is a stout rushing defense? I guess those Cowboys and Eagles games didn't count against the Giants then.

NYG4lifeNYK
10-02-2012, 02:47 PM
Kiwi is a very good LBer and he's progressively gotten better each season.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 02:47 PM
Yes, of course, because making tackles as a LB is apparently not important.


so let's put this in perspective for the slower viewers
he has 45 tackles kiwi has 7


fine...where are the rest of the numbers?
has this other guy had 90 balls run at him and missed 45 tackles? ...thats not very good...has kiwi made all 7 tackles on the plays that have come his way? pretty damn good....until you can provide ALL the numbers....the stat of tackles doesn't mean anything....Numbers can say anything you want them to say if you only find PART of the numbers.....I am not saying this other guy isn't doing better than kiwi........I'm saying based on the info you have provided...there is no way to tell

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 02:50 PM
Kiwi is a very good LBer and he's progressively gotten better each season.

Based on what?

CowboysSuck
10-02-2012, 02:50 PM
so let's put this in perspective for the slower viewers
he has 45 tackles kiwi has 7


fine...where are the rest of the numbers?
has this other guy had 90 balls run at him and missed 45 tackles? ...thats not very good...has kiwi made all 7 tackles on the plays that have come his way? pretty damn good....until you can provide ALL the numbers....the stat of tackles doesn't mean anything....Numbers can say anything you want them to say if you only find PART of the numbers.....I am not saying this other guy isn't doing better than kiwi........I'm saying based on the info you have provided...there is no way to tell

I agree that a single stat alone doenst provide much to a conversation. I like Kiwi.

But I don't think any of us can sit here and say Bowmann's 45 tackles through 4 games isnt impressive. If our famed run-stopping LB'er has 7 and he has 45, thats impressive for him. Have to admit, no?

And don't worry I'm not basing the Giants or anyone else, just being realistic..objective.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 02:51 PM
Based on what?

Based on pff rated him as one of the top lb in the nfl against the run...why aren't you getting that?

fansince69
10-02-2012, 02:53 PM
I agree that a single stat alone doenst provide much to a conversation. I like Kiwi.

But I don't think any of us can sit here and say Bowmann's 45 tackles through 4 games isnt impressive. If our famed run-stopping LB'er has 7 and he has 45, thats impressive for him. Have to admit, no?

And don't worry I'm not basing the Giants or anyone else, just being realistic..objective.

I didn't say it was or it wasn't all I am saying that a stat on it's own means very little....you need ALL the stats

CowboysSuck
10-02-2012, 02:53 PM
Guys, I understand bashing trolls. And trolls, I understand bashing Kiwi.

But lets both be honest.

Kiwi isn't an above average LB (all around). Hes good against the run, and thats about it. Hes a Team Player most importantly, which is very important. Lets not make him out to be a slouch, because he's not. But lets also not talk about him like he is Sean Lee or Lance Briggs, which he is not.

burier
10-02-2012, 02:55 PM
I have no idea why you guys keep saying this....KIWI was one of the top rated linebackers in the NFL vs the run last year......a linebackers job is to defend the run....how is he not doing a good job?.....some just do not get it....as opposed to someone like OSI that makes 3-4 spectacular plays a year and misses the rest...I'll take the guy that makes all the plays and doesn't get the spotlight

lol top rated by who. PFF. lmao

If he was so great against the run why did almost every team we faced run all over us last year. And where was he against the run sunday night?

I swear if you make one play behind the line of scrimmage as a defender Giants fans will love you forever.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 02:55 PM
Oh wait, so you're saying the Giants defense is a stout rushing defense? I guess those Cowboys and Eagles games didn't count against the Giants then.

If Kiwi is doing his job and his teammates aren't who is to blame? Kiwi? Yeah I think not.

CowboysSuck
10-02-2012, 02:56 PM
I didn't say it was or it wasn't all I am saying that a stat on it's own means very little....you need ALL the stats

Very true. Or we all just need a feel for the game. Like when you watch a game you just get a certain feel for how impactful a player really is.

Some of us that watch ALOTTT of football, especially Giants football, will understand that Kiwanuka is no slouch, and he is important in stopping the run, as well as subbing in for the NASCAR and providing a fresh DL rotation.

but hes no patrick willis

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 02:57 PM
lol top rated by who. PFF. lmao

If he was so great against the run why did almost every team we faced run all over us last year. And where was he against the run sunday night?

I swear if you make one play behind the line of scrimmage as a defender Giants fans will love you forever.

Is it Kiwi's fault if he is in position to force the RB elsewhere and the guy Kiwi forces the RB to fails to make the run stop? Stopping the run is more than just making the tackle yourself, it is about positioning and hoping your teammates do their damn job if you do yours.

burier
10-02-2012, 03:02 PM
too many so called fans just look at the stats and make an assumption not really understanding the stat.....there are many stats that can be quoted to make almost any argument.....look at ALL the stats and watch how a player plays within the team concept ...that is how you judge

Not talking specifically about Kiwi right now but...

Stats can be used for evil but I mean..if someone is playing a position and isn't keeping up statistically with everyone else in the league at his position then theres a red flag.

John Goff started 16 games 2010 and recorded 54 tackles. You can couch all this gap control stuff all you want. but Mike backers are supposed to have better tackle numbers than that in 16 games started.

Stats aren't the end all be all but they are a tool.

As far as Kiwi goes. I dont think anyone is saying he sucks but he's a first round pick who we kept beyond his rookie contract...I don't think we're getting our bang for our buck with him at the SAM.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 03:04 PM
I'm honestly not trolling here. I've probably watched 90% of the Giant games over the past 3 years. Kiwi never gets mentioned. He never causes a game-turning fumble or jump in front of that pass to the TE and take an interception the other way. I'm talking about the eye test here. But if you want to look at the stats too I think they support what I'm saying.

Plus lets not suggest the Giants defense is some juggernaut. This isn't the 49ers or the Texans. I'd be right there with you if the Giants defense was great and Kiwi was just another cog in the machine...that would be fine. But it's not like that. He's an average player in an average defense.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Not talking specifically about Kiwi right now but...

Stats can be used for evil but I mean..if someone is playing a position and isn't keeping up statistically with everyone else in the league at his position then theres a red flag.

John Goff started 16 games 2010 and recorded 54 tackles. You can couch all this gap control stuff all you want. but Mike backers are supposed to have better tackle numbers than that in 16 games started.

Stats aren't the end all be all but they are a tool.

As far as Kiwi goes. I dont think anyone is saying he sucks but he's first round pick who we kept beyond his rookie contract...I don't think we're getting out bang for our buck with him at the SAM.

I guess we agree to disagree....he is a solid player whose making a solid contract so I think he earns what he's paid.....he does HIS job

fansince69
10-02-2012, 03:11 PM
1
Takeo Spikes
2362
232
44
9
31.7


2
Patrick Willis
2888
287
56
14
25.5


3
Bradie James
2245
199
49
11
23.5


3
Paul Posluszny
2758
273
64
15
23.5


5
Michael Boley
2596
195
28
10
23.3


6
James Laurinaitis
3254
299
47
16
22.6


7
Kirk Morrison
1827
179
22
10
21.1


8
Jerod Mayo
2716
245
59
16
20.0


9
Thomas Howard
2017
146
16
9
19.0


10
Stephen Nicholas
1636
132
21
9
18.0


11
D.J. Williams
3060
267
37
20
16.2


12
Desmond Bishop
1624
179
33
14
16.1


13
Mathias Kiwanuka
1788
113
20
9
15.8


14
Keith Brooking
2116
185
34
15
15.6


15
D'Qwell Jackson
1483
165
18
13
15




He was 13 in nfl in tackling efficiency

sorry headins did't come.....they are snaps....tackles...assists and missed tackles and pct

slipknottin
10-02-2012, 03:12 PM
He is one of the best run stuffing LBs in the league.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 03:13 PM
1

Takeo Spikes

2362

232

44

9

31.7



2

Patrick Willis

2888

287

56

14

25.5



3

Bradie James

2245

199

49

11

23.5



3

Paul Posluszny

2758

273

64

15

23.5



5

Michael Boley

2596

195

28

10

23.3



6

James Laurinaitis

3254

299

47

16

22.6



7

Kirk Morrison

1827

179

22

10

21.1



8

Jerod Mayo

2716

245

59

16

20.0



9

Thomas Howard

2017

146

16

9

19.0



10

Stephen Nicholas

1636

132

21

9

18.0



11

D.J. Williams

3060

267

37

20

16.2



12

Desmond Bishop

1624

179

33

14

16.1



13

Mathias Kiwanuka

1788

113

20

9

15.8



14

Keith Brooking

2116

185

34

15

15.6



15

D'Qwell Jackson

1483

165

18

13

15








He was 13 in nfl in tackling efficiency

There you have it Bowman not even on the list but Willis is but according to some in this thread I am sure Willis did it all by himself with no help from Bowman lol. Boley is way up there on the list and Kiwi is on the list. It looks to me against the run Kiwi-Boley is a better tandem than Willis-Bowman if you want to go by stats. This stat reference proves my point about how teams stop the run not individuals. Kiwi does his job and his teammates need to do theirs.

CowboysSuck
10-02-2012, 03:18 PM
OP Just to prove you wrong, go to Coach Coughlin's presser from yesterday. fast forward to 5:45 and Coughlin says word for word "Did we make a great goal-line stand? You bet... Kiwanuka makes a great effort play tackling the runner at the line.."

Clearly he makes big play, often going unnoticed as such.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 03:20 PM
1
Takeo Spikes
2362
232
44
9
31.7


2
Patrick Willis
2888
287
56
14
25.5


3
Bradie James
2245
199
49
11
23.5


3
Paul Posluszny
2758
273
64
15
23.5


5
Michael Boley
2596
195
28
10
23.3


6
James Laurinaitis
3254
299
47
16
22.6


7
Kirk Morrison
1827
179
22
10
21.1


8
Jerod Mayo
2716
245
59
16
20.0


9
Thomas Howard
2017
146
16
9
19.0


10
Stephen Nicholas
1636
132
21
9
18.0


11
D.J. Williams
3060
267
37
20
16.2


12
Desmond Bishop
1624
179
33
14
16.1


13
Mathias Kiwanuka
1788
113
20
9
15.8


14
Keith Brooking
2116
185
34
15
15.6


15
D'Qwell Jackson
1483
165
18
13
15




He was 13 in nfl in tackling efficiency

sorry headins did't come.....they are snaps....tackles...assists and missed tackles and pct


Jeez, according to this chart with Boley and Kiwi we should have THE BEST RUN DEFENSE EVA! Sadly the game isn't played on this chart.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 03:22 PM
Jeez, according to this chart with Boley and Kiwi we should have THE BEST RUN DEFENSE EVA! Sadly the game isn't played on this chart.
sadly what this chart shows is the problem isn't boley or kiwi...9 other guys have to do their jobs

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 03:23 PM
OP Just to prove you wrong, go to Coach Coughlin's presser from yesterday. fast forward to 5:45 and Coughlin says word for word "Did we make a great goal-line stand? You bet... Kiwanuka makes a great effort play tackling the runner at the line.."

Clearly he makes big play, often going unnoticed as such.

Fabulous. That was one of his 7 tackles this year. I wonder if Coughlin can recount the other 6 as well.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 03:23 PM
Jeez, according to this chart with Boley and Kiwi we should have THE BEST RUN DEFENSE EVA! Sadly the game isn't played on this chart.

The chart is as accurate a measure as there is in the sport. Still goes back to the point that Kiwi and it seems Boley too need the other 9 guys to do their jobs as well.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 03:25 PM
Fabulous. That was one of his 7 tackles this year. I wonder Coughlin can recount the other 6 as well.

You just don't get it. 9 other guys aren't doing their jobs hence almost 200 yards each rushing for both Dallas and Philly.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 03:25 PM
Fabulous. That was one of his 7 tackles this year. I wonder Coughlin can recount the other 6 as well.

your guitar really only has one string doesn't it?

Dwinsballgames
10-02-2012, 03:27 PM
I believe the answer to the original question is "yes".

burier
10-02-2012, 03:28 PM
I guess we agree to disagree....he is a solid player whose making a solid contract so I think he earns what he's paid.....he does HIS job

wait what are we agreeing to disagree about?

Are you saying Kiwi is an upper-echelon backer?

Are you saying Kiwi wouldn't be better served (individually) if he went back to end?

Because if you're saying either of those then yeah..we agree to disagree.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 03:29 PM
I believe the answer to the original question is "yes".

End Thread.:D

NYGabriel
10-02-2012, 03:29 PM
This thread sucks.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 03:30 PM
wait what are we agreeing to disagree about?

Are you saying Kiwi is an upper-echelon backer?

Are you saying Kiwi wouldn't be better served (individually) if he went back to end?

Because if you're saying either of those then yeah..we agree to disagree.

He does his job. Not his fault that it seems only Boley is also doing his job. If he moved to DE, maybe he would make more plays or maybe he'd tail off. It is anyone's guess.

burier
10-02-2012, 03:34 PM
He does his job. Not his fault that it seems only Boley is also doing his job. If he moved to DE, maybe he would make more plays or maybe he'd tail off. It is anyone's guess.

I bet he'd be upgrade on Tuck/Osi no matter how bad he tailed off.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 03:38 PM
I bet he'd be upgrade on Tuck/Osi no matter how bad he tailed off.

Maybe so but then we are hoping Rivers when he gets healthy or Jacquain Williams (both would be out of position) can perform the SAM LB'er job as well as Kiwi does at that spot particularly against the run. I'd be intrigued to see how Kiwi back at DE would impact the defense but don't know if we have the horses at LB'er to do the job that is needed.

joemorrisforprez
10-02-2012, 03:39 PM
We screwed the guy by making him play out of position. He's a really good player but he's not a great linebacker.

He should be starting, Osi should be backing him up.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 03:50 PM
If Kiwi is doing SUCH A GREAT JOB then who do we blame? Who? Boley? Our D-line? JPP occupies two O-linemen and disrupts many plays, I think he's doing his job. Everybody around here seems to think our D-Tackles do their jobs for the most part. Sure you can blame Osi, he's terrible. But he's not the main reason. Secondarys shouldn't be primary tacklers/run stoppers, so you really cant blame them for this either.

If it's the D-Lines primary job to put pressure on the QB and to occupy O-Lineman, and the secondary's primary job is to cover recievers, then the LBs primary job to make the tackle. That's why the leading tackler's in the league are usually LBs. Granted, some LBs are pass-rushers, others are great coverage guys. All I'm saying is I don't see any of that with Kiwi.

fansince69
10-02-2012, 03:53 PM
If Kiwi is doing SUCH A GREAT JOB then who do we blame? Who? Boley? Our D-line? JPP occupies two O-linemen and disrupts many plays, I think he's doing his job. Everybody around here seems to think our D-Tackles do their jobs for the most part. Sure you can blame Osi, he's terrible. But he's not the main reason. Secondarys shouldn't be primary tacklers/run stoppers, so you really cant blame them for this either.

If it's the D-Lines primary job to put pressure on the QB and to occupy O-Lineman, and the secondary's primary job is to cover recievers, then the LBs primary job to make the tackle. That's why the leading tackler's in the league are usually LBs. Granted, some LBs are pass-rushers, others are great coverage guys. All I'm saying is I don't see any of that with Kiwi.

Then you are not watching closely...kiwi makes almost every play that comes HIS way...

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 04:01 PM
All I keep hearing from some of you is how prolific a run-stuffer Kiwi is. I guess teams are just scared to run at him because he is so dominant. He's a run-stuffer that makes less than two tackles per game and never sacks the QB or gets an INT. Oh and the Giants run defense is bad, but lets blame EVERYBODY else for that. It can't possibly be because one of our starting LBs gets less than 2 tackles per game. It's the other guys who aren't picking up the slack.

jakegibbs
10-02-2012, 04:06 PM
How many tackles someone has is a bull **** stat most times anyway...how many missed tackles does he have? how many times have they run the ball his way?how many times has he sealed the edge and forced the play inside? when you can provide those numbers then we will talk about tackles... ?

I'VE SEEN JPP DO THOSE THINGS OVER & OVER & STILL MAKE THE TACKLE. WE NEED 2 JPPs @ each end & the D line problems will be over. JPP #2 WHERE ARE YOU???????????????????Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

BeatYale
10-02-2012, 04:07 PM
Im sorry but if the guy was such an elite run-stopper he wouldn't have 7 tackles in 4 games.

And I'm not defending Osi, he sucks too.

Tackles don't always the whole story bro. There's a lot of unsung heroes in run defense, guys that occupy two blockers, contain an outside run, redirect the play etc. etc.

BParcells777
10-02-2012, 04:10 PM
He was a monster at BC........he has never been the same since Vince Young got out of his grasp........took away his MOJO

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 04:13 PM
He was a monster at BC........he has never been the same since Vince Young got out of his grasp........took away his MOJO

I wholeheartedly endorse this post. Vince Young has his mojo. Well, now that Kiwi is making almost 7 million a year for being the prolific run stuffer that he is, can afford to buy his MOJO back. Lord knows VY needs the money.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 04:16 PM
Tackles don't always the whole story bro. There's a lot of unsung heroes in run defense, guys that occupy two blockers, contain an outside run, redirect the play etc. etc.

I agree, tackles don't tell the whole story, but you can't totally ignore them either. Defensive Tackles are usually the unsung heroes of a defense. They occupy the OLINE so that they cant get to the second level. They clog stuff up so the backers can come in for the kill. That's the way it's supposed to work.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 04:20 PM
If Kiwi is doing SUCH A GREAT JOB then who do we blame? Who? Boley? Our D-line? JPP occupies two O-linemen and disrupts many plays, I think he's doing his job. Everybody around here seems to think our D-Tackles do their jobs for the most part. Sure you can blame Osi, he's terrible. But he's not the main reason. Secondarys shouldn't be primary tacklers/run stoppers, so you really cant blame them for this either.

If it's the D-Lines primary job to put pressure on the QB and to occupy O-Lineman, and the secondary's primary job is to cover recievers, then the LBs primary job to make the tackle. That's why the leading tackler's in the league are usually LBs. Granted, some LBs are pass-rushers, others are great coverage guys. All I'm saying is I don't see any of that with Kiwi.

See this is where you are wrong Osi, Tuck and whoever is playing the other LB'er spot whether it be Chase, Jacquain, Rivers and whoever else are not doing the job. Secondary mustn't be primary tacklers but when Kiwi forces the run away from him sometimes the Safeties and Corners have to get their rear ends up to the box faster and help out. They don't do it with the consistency good run stopping teams do. Did you see CB Charles Tillman last night? He ate Murray for lunch when Briggs or Urlacher forced Murray away from them. Giants need more of that for the secondary against the run. And yes, Osi and Tuck have been downright awful and have done nothing to help stop the run consistently. I'm sorry but if your two pro bowl DE's are not helping guys like Kiwi and Boley it is unacceptable.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 04:26 PM
See this is where you are wrong Osi, Tuck and whoever is playing the other LB'er spot whether it be Chase, Jacquain, Rivers and whoever else are not doing the job. Secondary mustn't be primary tacklers but when Kiwi forces the run away from him sometimes the Safeties and Corners have to get their rear ends up to the box faster and help out. They don't do it with the consistency good run stopping teams do. Did you see CB Charles Tillman last night? He ate Murray for lunch when Briggs or Urlacher forced Murray away from them.

I'm not saying the other guys are blameless. I just don't see the impact he's makiing. You keep saying he's funneling runners to other guys and it's the other guys who are screwing up. Do the other guys occasionally screw up? Yes. But not to the degree that you are suggesting.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 04:30 PM
I'm not saying the other guys are blameless. I just don't see the impact he's makiing. You keep saying he's funneling runners to other guys and it's the other guys who are screwing up. Do the other guys occasionally screw up? Yes. But not to the degree that you are suggesting.

I disagree. From what I've seen each game the fault lies squarely on Osi and Tuck's soldiers and the DB's are not consistently helping out when it is a run the way they should be. As far as the other LB'er spot, I believe Rivers coming back would be a big boost but whether it be Chase or Williams or someone else while Rivers is out, too many times they are not getting the job done. It is not Kiwi and Boley that's for sure.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 04:45 PM
Great players make great plays no matter where they are on the field. Period. They have a presence. Despite how the fans may feel about Tuck and Osi at the moment I'd be willing to bet most LBs would love to play behind the Giants D-Line. A good D-Line can take the pressure off your backers. You could argue that San Fransico's D-line is comperable to the Giants, perhaps a little better, and Patrick Willis and Navorro Bowman make plays. Lots of them. Been doing it for years. Part of that may be scheme, but those two linebackers would make plays on ANY defense.

joemorrisforprez
10-02-2012, 04:47 PM
If Kiwi is doing SUCH A GREAT JOB then who do we blame? Who? Boley? Our D-line? JPP occupies two O-linemen and disrupts many plays, I think he's doing his job. Everybody around here seems to think our D-Tackles do their jobs for the most part. Sure you can blame Osi, he's terrible. But he's not the main reason. Secondarys shouldn't be primary tacklers/run stoppers, so you really cant blame them for this either.

If it's the D-Lines primary job to put pressure on the QB and to occupy O-Lineman, and the secondary's primary job is to cover recievers, then the LBs primary job to make the tackle. That's why the leading tackler's in the league are usually LBs. Granted, some LBs are pass-rushers, others are great coverage guys. All I'm saying is I don't see any of that with Kiwi.

Actually, I can totally blame Osi as the main reason. He continually blew contain, and it continually resulted in huge plays for the Eagles.

He was the Achilles heel on Sunday night. Credit the Eagles for attacking it, time after time.

Not sure what Fewell was watching, but I would have yanked Osi's *** after the 4th or 5th blown assignment.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 04:49 PM
Actually, I can totally blame Osi as the main reason. He continually blew contain, and it continually resulted in huge plays for the Eagles.

He was the Achilles heel on Sunday night. Credit the Eagles for attacking it, time after time.

Not sure what Fewell was watching, but I would have yanked Osi's *** after the 4th or 5th blown assignment.

Exactly this. The story was the same against Dallas as well.

As far as Willis and Bowman, I have no problem admitting they are better than Kiwi-Boley but that doesn't really say very much. No tandem anywhere in the NFL is as good as those two. Doesn't mean Kiwi is not doing his job as is needed while only getting help from Boley and JPP when JPP is not triple teamed.

Riverboat76
10-02-2012, 04:51 PM
Actually, I can totally blame Osi as the main reason. He continually blew contain, and it continually resulted in huge plays for the Eagles.

He was the Achilles heel on Sunday night. Credit the Eagles for attacking it, time after time.

Not sure what Fewell was watching, but I would have yanked Osi's *** after the 4th or 5th blown assignment.

Yes, Osi sucks. I think that has been established at this point. I'd replace Osi with Kiwi.

repeatchamps
10-02-2012, 04:55 PM
Yes, Osi sucks. I think that has been established at this point. I'd replace Osi with Kiwi.

I would not be opposed to that only because it improves the D-line not because it improves Kiwi. However, who takes the SAM? Rivers maybe but that is not his position. Williams? Same story as Rivers. Chase at the SAM? Sorry but that would be a major downgrade.

burier
10-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Kinda felt this thread needed a proper burial. scroll down to number 32.

http://www.bigblueview.com/2012/10/2/3439918/new-york-giants-roster-power-rankings-rating-the-giants-from-1-53

ny06
10-03-2012, 01:04 PM
I wish we had 53 players like Kiwi. Does his job, doesn't complain. And mind you, he's a good player.

gumby74
10-03-2012, 01:12 PM
How many tackles someone has is a bull **** stat most times anyway...how many missed tackles does he have? how many times have they run the ball his way?how many times has he sealed the edge and forced the play inside? when you can provide those numbers then we will talk about tackles... ?

This. AP lead us in tackles but most of them were 5 yards down the field because he got pushed around like a rag doll.

burier
10-03-2012, 01:24 PM
I wish we had 53 players like Kiwi. Does his job, doesn't complain. And mind you, he's a good player.

its not about how good a player he is. Its about him playing out of position because "Linebackers aren't important"

TroyArcher
10-03-2012, 04:48 PM
Who knows maybe he will move back to DE again. He has been like a ping pong ball. If Rivers can stay helathy (which does not seem probable) they could consider to move Kiwi back into a DE rotation. I would use Osi as a 3rd down specialist only and it sure seems like Tuck needs to rest quite a bit during a game.

Captain Chaos
10-03-2012, 06:49 PM
Kiwi is very good against the run, we just need to get the Line to step up...The talent is certainly there....

Giant in Texas
10-03-2012, 07:05 PM
I have no idea why you guys keep saying this....KIWI was one of the top rated linebackers in the NFL vs the run last year......a linebackers job is to defend the run....how is he not doing a good job?.....some just do not get it....as opposed to someone like OSI that makes 3-4 spectacular plays a year and misses the rest...I'll take the guy that makes all the plays and doesn't get the spotlight

Nicely stated, that is exactly what we need more of!

B&RWarrior
10-03-2012, 08:27 PM
Kinda felt this thread needed a proper burial. scroll down to number 32.

http://www.bigblueview.com/2012/10/2/3439918/new-york-giants-roster-power-rankings-rating-the-giants-from-1-53

The key to that article is that they pointed out Kiwi got only 27 snaps in the Eagles game. If his snap count is similar in the first few games it probably explains the low tackle number. I think the reason he's getting fewer snaps is because he is such a liability versus the pass. I think by the end of last year they took him out on passing downs. LBs have to play the run and the pass. Kiwi never put on the weight or got strong enough to become a dominant DE. So it is what it is. He is a great run stopping backer with great pass rushing skills, but inferior pass coverage skills. He's a good guy to have on your team.

giantsfam04
10-04-2012, 05:22 AM
All I keep hearing from some of you is how prolific a run-stuffer Kiwi is. I guess teams are just scared to run at him because he is so dominant. He's a run-stuffer that makes less than two tackles per game and never sacks the QB or gets an INT. Oh and the Giants run defense is bad, but lets blame EVERYBODY else for that. It can't possibly be because one of our starting LBs gets less than 2 tackles per game. It's the other guys who aren't picking up the slack.

Comparing Navaro Bowman to Kiwi is not an accurate way to look at it. Bowman is a true LB not a DE playing out of position, so yes he is naturally going to be a better LB. Also the supporting cast is better around Bowman, football is the ultimate team sport. As for big plays, you play within the system and do your job first, Osi makes a big play and then ****s the bed for the remainder of the game. Give me a guy who plays his keys and knows his assignments first. But to answer your question Kiwi did stop Miami with a sack to win the game last year is that not a big play?

burier
10-04-2012, 10:07 AM
The key to that article is that they pointed out Kiwi got only 27 snaps in the Eagles game. If his snap count is similar in the first few games it probably explains the low tackle number. I think the reason he's getting fewer snaps is because he is such a liability versus the pass. I think by the end of last year they took him out on passing downs. LBs have to play the run and the pass. Kiwi never put on the weight or got strong enough to become a dominant DE. So it is what it is. He is a great run stopping backer with great pass rushing skills, but inferior pass coverage skills. He's a good guy to have on your team.

Translation: We drafted a passrusher to take him out of the game on passing downs.

BlueReign
10-04-2012, 10:11 AM
He chased down Shady last week which ultimately saved 4 points.

Morehead State
10-04-2012, 10:27 AM
I haven't read any of the posts...just the OP's comment.
Let me say this about Kiwi...Its true that he doesn't make a lot of game changing plays. What he does is make all the play-in, play-out, plays every down. These are the plays that Osi doesn't make. They require discipline and study. And a willingness to do the small things to help the team. They don't get a lot of attention, but they help the team win football games.

Redeyejedi
10-04-2012, 10:28 AM
Translation: We drafted a passrusher to take him out of the game on passing downs. We have better pass rushers then Kiwi

fansince69
10-04-2012, 11:10 AM
I haven't read any of the posts...just the OP's comment.
Let me say this about Kiwi...Its true that he doesn't make a lot of game changing plays. What he does is make all the play-in, play-out, plays every down. These are the plays that Osi doesn't make. They require discipline and study. And a willingness to do the small things to help the team. They don't get a lot of attention, but they help the team win football games.

I said basically this same thing back when this thread started....I guess I do not understand why some people do not get this concept....seems pretty simple....but after some thought....I believe that the average fan is NOT capable of seeing past the plays that end up on ESPN....the things Kiwi brings do not end up on espn ...instead they end up playing inSuperbowls

burier
10-04-2012, 11:21 AM
We have better pass rushers then Kiwi

We have exactly 1 better pass rusher than Kiwi. We're wasting the guys talent.

burier
10-04-2012, 11:28 AM
I said basically this same thing back when this thread started....I guess I do not understand why some people do not get this concept....seems pretty simple....but after some thought....I believe that the average fan is NOT capable of seeing past the plays that end up on ESPN....the things Kiwi brings do not end up on espn ...instead they end up playing inSuperbowls

and I reject this attitude that making big plays and doing your own job are mutually exclusive. The upper echelon players do both.

Now if you consider where we drafted Kiwi we're ripping ourselves off. I don't need to use a first round draft choice on a player who's gonna offer Kiwi's current production. And I have no idea why Osi's name keeps coming up. There was a time when he was a very good player but now he's just garbage.

I need to stress that I am not bashing Kiwi. I just feel he should be playing at end if not full time a good percentage of the time. And right now with the production we're getting at end and the production we're getting at backer I see no down side to moving kiwi into a starting end spot.

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=burier;516749]and I reject this attitude that making big plays and doing your own job are mutually exclusive. The upper echelon players do both.
QUOTE]

Yup

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 12:00 PM
I said basically this same thing back when this thread started....I guess I do not understand why some people do not get this concept....seems pretty simple....but after some thought....I believe that the average fan is NOT capable of seeing past the plays that end up on ESPN....the things Kiwi brings do not end up on espn ...instead they end up playing inSuperbowls

And this is garbage.

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 12:04 PM
The key to that article is that they pointed out Kiwi got only 27 snaps in the Eagles game. If his snap count is similar in the first few games it probably explains the low tackle number. I think the reason he's getting fewer snaps is because he is such a liability versus the pass. I think by the end of last year they took him out on passing downs. LBs have to play the run and the pass. Kiwi never put on the weight or got strong enough to become a dominant DE. So it is what it is. He is a great run stopping backer with great pass rushing skills, but inferior pass coverage skills. He's a good guy to have on your team.

And this isn't a problem because...?

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 12:05 PM
Kinda felt this thread needed a proper burial. scroll down to number 32.

http://www.bigblueview.com/2012/10/2/3439918/new-york-giants-roster-power-rankings-rating-the-giants-from-1-53

I guess we're not the only "crazy" people.

GameTime
10-04-2012, 12:10 PM
I guess we're not the only "crazy" people.
not that Kiwi is an elite player or anything. But why did you choose to dog him. He is a consistent player who has dealt with injuries and has had to change position. He is not a superstar but he he far from lame duck.

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 12:23 PM
not that Kiwi is an elite player or anything. But why did you choose to dog him. He is a consistent player who has dealt with injuries and has had to change position. He is not a superstar but he he far from lame duck.

I said in the beginning that I think he is better suited as a speedier DE pass rusher, rather than a slower LB playing out of position. So I don't think it's all his fault. And I'm not saying he is the worst player ever. But he is well paid to be a (seemingly) situational run stopping LB who doesn't make tackles, or game changing plays. I just don't get it. He has been the one constant LB on a defense that hasn't been very good for a few years, quite frankly. He has been invisible, and I don't want to hear it's because he is "funneling" plays to other guys who are then not making the tackle. He's invisible because he is a big, slow LB who plays poor in space. Period.

I truly believe if he was shifted to a DE spot (perhaps stealing time from Osi) and a true LB was shifted to his spot, the defense would perform better.

fansince69
10-04-2012, 12:23 PM
not that Kiwi is an elite player or anything. But why did you choose to dog him. He is a consistent player who has dealt with injuries and has had to change position. He is not a superstar but he he far from lame duck.

I think it is pretty obvious....he hasn't seen him do anything to make the highlight film......that means he sucks in the eyes of a fan that doesn't understand "team concept" and doing the job assigned to you...by this logic every offensive lineman must suck too

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 12:28 PM
I think it is pretty obvious....he hasn't seen him do anything to make the highlight film......that means he sucks in the eyes of a fan that doesn't understand "team concept" and doing the job assigned to you...by this logic every offensive lineman must suck too

Your wisdom shines through with every post you make. One day I hope to see the game through the eyes of a true football guru such as yourself.

fansince69
10-04-2012, 12:41 PM
Your wisdom shines through with every post you make. One day I hope to see the game through the eyes of a true football guru such as yourself.
lol ty I sincerely hope you can too

GameTime
10-04-2012, 12:46 PM
I said in the beginning that I think he is better suited as a speedier DE pass rusher, rather than a slower LB playing out of position. So I don't think it's all his fault. And I'm not saying he is the worst player ever. But he is well paid to be a (seemingly) situational run stopping LB who doesn't make tackles, or game changing plays. I just don't get it. He has been the one constant LB on a defense that hasn't been very good for a few years, quite frankly. He has been invisible, and I don't want to hear it's because he is "funneling" plays to other guys who are then not making the tackle. He's invisible because he is a big, slow LB who plays poor in space. Period.

I truly believe if he was shifted to a DE spot (perhaps stealing time from Osi) and a true LB was shifted to his spot, the defense would perform better.
what LB on the Giants has been a game changer on any type of consistent basis???? Boley a here and there....thats about it...and he's nicked up often.

burier
10-04-2012, 01:12 PM
what LB on the Giants has been a game changer on any type of consistent basis???? Boley a here and there....thats about it...and he's nicked up often.

Its true we've ignored our linebackers for years.

Is Lance Briggs still demanding a trade?

GameTime
10-04-2012, 01:15 PM
Its true we've ignored our linebackers for years.

Is Lance Briggs still demanding a trade?
he wants to play TE for the Cowboys. He likes the way Romo throws the ball and he has developed a chemistry with him....lol

burier
10-04-2012, 01:17 PM
he wants to play TE for the Cowboys. He likes the way Romo throws the ball and he has developed a chemistry with him....lol

Good show.

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 01:42 PM
what LB on the Giants has been a game changer on any type of consistent basis???? Boley a here and there....thats about it...and he's nicked up often.

None of them. It's been a problem. Look at the traditionally dominant defenses over the years...they all have All-Pro Level linebackers. 49ers, Steelers, Ravens, Bears.

I love Reese but this has been one problem he hasn't been able to fix yet. He keeps throwing band-aids on the gaping wound. He drafted Sintim high to be an answer but he turned out to be the worst one yet.

GameTime
10-04-2012, 01:45 PM
None of them. It's been a problem. Look at the traditionally dominant defenses over the years...they all have All-Pro Level linebackers. 49ers, Steelers, Ravens, Bears.

I love Reese but this has been one problem he hasn't been able to fix yet. He keeps throwing band-aids on the gaping wound. He drafted Sintim high to be an answer but he turned out to be the worst one yet.
so basically your thread could have been about any of the Giants recent LBs of the last 3 years or so.
They havent found the right mox yet. You named 4 teams with very good LB corps. After thinking about it not too mnay teams have very good to great LBs....seems harder than realized to put together a consistently solid group

burier
10-04-2012, 01:45 PM
None of them. It's been a problem. Look at the traditionally dominant defenses over the years...they all have All-Pro Level linebackers. 49ers, Steelers, Ravens, Bears.

I love Reese but this has been one problem he hasn't been able to fix yet. He keeps throwing band-aids on the gaping wound. He drafted Sintim high to be an answer but he turned out to be the worst one yet.

What's annoying about Reese is he really hasn't even tried to fix it other than drafting a bunch of guys in late rounds and moving Kiwi. Its like he doesn't take the position seriously.

I mean he drafts Sintim in the second round who was a 3-4 backer and tries to turn him into a 4-3 backer. Does he think this is some sort of video game?

GameTime
10-04-2012, 01:49 PM
What's annoying about Reese is he really hasn't even tried to fix it other than drafting a bunch of guys in late rounds and moving Kiwi. Its like he doesn't take the position seriously.

I mean he drafts Sintim in the second round who was a 3-4 backer and tries to turn him into a 4-3 backer. Does he think this is some sort of video game?
I agree.....but I dont agree about the whole 3-4 vs 4-3 thing with LBs. Mabey just my ignorance for the scheme but it seems if Kiwi can become a decent LB why couldn't Sintim become a 4-3 LB??
I think its just one of those things that just didnt work out.

Riverboat76
10-04-2012, 01:50 PM
so basically your thread could have been about any of the Giants recent LBs of the last 3 years or so.
They havent found the right mox yet. You named 4 teams with very good LB corps. After thinking about it not too mnay teams have very good to great LBs....seems harder than realized to put together a consistently solid group

Kiwi has been the one constant LB over the years and he just got rewarded with a big contract before the season...and I don't think his play justifies it. That is why I singled him out.

burier
10-04-2012, 01:53 PM
I agree.....but I dont agree about the whole 3-4 vs 4-3 thing with LBs. Mabey just my ignorance for the scheme but it seems if Kiwi can become a decent LB why couldn't Sintim become a 4-3 LB??
I think its just one of those things that just didnt work out.

Its not impossible. I think you can switch a backer from a 3-4 to a 4-3 but conventional wisdom says a smoother transition would have been to move Sintm to DE.

I just dont think you should gamble with your early picks like that.

GameTime
10-04-2012, 02:19 PM
Its not impossible. I think you can switch a backer from a 3-4 to a 4-3 but conventional wisdom says a smoother transition would have been to move Sintm to DE.

I just dont think you should gamble with your early picks like that.
the Giants like "athletic" players overall and that what they saw in Sintim I believe. Either way it didnt work out for them or him.....

repeatchamps
10-04-2012, 02:48 PM
He has been invisible, and I don't want to hear it's because he is "funneling" plays to other guys who are then not making the tackle. He's invisible because he is a big, slow LB who plays poor in space. Period.


How many times does this have to be rehashed in this thread? I am sorry this is a very narrowminded, uninformed view of how a LB'er helps make the run defense top notch. No one else makes a stop in the run defense even if Kiwi plays his position properly and that's Kiwi's fault? If a guy like Bowman (knowing what he's capable of presently with a solid supporting cast) all the sudden went to a new team who's defense does nothing to help him and his output dropped I guess you'd tear into him too and say he was overrated to begin with. Ever think that Bowman puts up and makes the eye-opening numbers/plays you are referencing because the other guys around him do their job as well as or perhaps even better than Bowman does?

GameTime
10-04-2012, 02:49 PM
Kiwi has been the one constant LB over the years and he just got rewarded with a big contract before the season...and I don't think his play justifies it. That is why I singled him out.
gotcha....