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giantsfan420
10-18-2012, 02:56 PM
one thing i hate is the term "eli cultist" and how MS applies that to some people. imo, thats insulting a person. its as much a personal attack, imo, as any other negative adjective used to put some one down and disregard their thoughts. just very immature and juvenile, and I honestly dont know why that term is allowed to be used, usually by 1 or 2 posters...and its the use of that term that always instigates the back and forth banter, well bc lets face it, calling some one an eli cultist is like calling someone crazy

FBomb
10-18-2012, 03:08 PM
It works both ways.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 03:16 PM
The funny thing is.....much like the presidential debate....your are both full of ****. :cool:

Are there posters on this board that were saying that "we got duped" or "should have kept Rivers" "We can't win it all with him"etc...etc. WAY before he was given a chance? Absolutely!! Was Morehead one of them....no. Lumping him in with those posters is silly.

However, since morehead ISN'T one of those posters and he knows it, it's obvious that this thread wasn't meant for him. But he likes to jump into the fray anyway so it's easy to see the confusion. It doesn't help that him that he has the ridiculous opinion that the WR's didn't play a role in the high amount of interceptions in 2010. THAT is just silly. Of course they did....saying it's ALL on Eli just BEGS for people to "lump you in"

Here is how I see it....before the 2010 season, Eli decided he was going to be the leader of this offense and he was going to start asserting himself as a passer. It took a season to make that gel between him and his receivers.

Eli is an Elite QB in this league...now. That is all that matters. These threads are stupid.

I can't help myself. I must fight oppression wherever I find it.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 03:18 PM
one thing i hate is the term "eli cultist" and how MS applies that to some people. imo, thats insulting a person. its as much a personal attack, imo, as any other negative adjective used to put some one down and disregard their thoughts. just very immature and juvenile, and I honestly dont know why that term is allowed to be used, usually by 1 or 2 posters...and its the use of that term that always instigates the back and forth banter, well bc lets face it, calling some one an eli cultist is like calling someone crazy
if you've been called as many names as I have over the past several years for pointing out the flaws in Eli's game, you would understand.
And we're all crazy. We talk day in day out on a football message board and treat the fortunes of our team as if its life and death (which it is)

rebelfan1966
10-18-2012, 03:29 PM
All this thread needs now is for "Frightning Lightning" to return and boast about how Great Rivers and Merriman are..... We had some really interesting debates, I told him Eli was better than Rivers.... and when Willis went to SF, I told him Willis is better than Merrian..... And you know what, I think my point has be proven many times over....

One more thing, Morehead is a guy????? I don't know why I thought I was debating with a lady these past few years... lol <kidding of course>

EliDaMANning
10-18-2012, 03:29 PM
It's 2:30 PM here and I still don't want Rivers.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 03:38 PM
More on topic......looking back over the years I believe that Rivers never would have lasted here. The media would have gotten to him.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 03:40 PM
More on topic......looking back over the years I believe that Rivers never would have lasted here. The media would have gotten to him.
Why?

GameTime
10-18-2012, 03:40 PM
More on topic......looking back over the years I believe that Rivers never would have lasted here. The media would have gotten to him.
I agree....others dont. The media only would have gotten to him when he had a bad stretch. Which would have been likely. Most QBs do at somepoint.
Just seems like he would have a meltdown. But thankfully we will never know.....

njg85m
10-18-2012, 03:41 PM
Why?

I'd guess because he's a sniveling crybaby who never takes responsibility for his failures?

rebelfan1966
10-18-2012, 03:44 PM
if you've been called as many names as I have over the past several years for pointing out the flaws in Eli's game, you would understand.
And we're all crazy. We talk day in day out on a football message board and treat the fortunes of our team as if its life and death (which it is)

Hate to point out the obvious.... you have been gulity of some sophisticated name calling yourself...... just saying

FBomb
10-18-2012, 03:44 PM
Why?


Really?

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 03:45 PM
Really?
I mean..what is it about him? That he's emotional? That he's fiery?
So was Phil Simms.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 03:46 PM
Hate to point out the obvious.... you have been gulity of some sophisticated name calling yourself...... just saying
I try..............Thanks.

TheEnigma
10-18-2012, 03:49 PM
I'm sure Rivers could of handled the NY media (maybe not as fantastically as Eli) to the degree that he would of needed to. You don't think he would of received help on how to handle the media from the FO? Plus his deep faith in religion and experience of dealing with multiple children would have his ability to handle stress higher than most would expect. He's actually a pretty cool guy off the field and is one of the few QBs who goes to the Manning Pass Academy (whatever that place is called) during the summer to help out.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 03:50 PM
I'm sure Rivers could of handled the NY media (maybe not as fantastically as Eli) to the degree that he would of needed to. You don't think he would of received help on how to handle the media from the FO? Plus his deep faith in religion and experience of dealing with multiple children would have his ability to handle stress higher than most would expect. He's actually a pretty cool guy off the field and is one of the few QBs who goes to the Manning Pass Academy (whatever that place is called) during the summer to help out.
I think they believe that since he yelled at Jay Cutler, he can't handle the NY media....or something like that. Don' know why they think that, but it seems to be the case.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 03:52 PM
I mean..what is it about him? That he's emotional? That he's fiery?
So was Phil Simms.

He's reactionary. Or, at least he used to be. When he was younger he would have blown up at the negative press.

GameTime
10-18-2012, 03:53 PM
I think they believe that since he yelled at Jay Cutler, he can't handle the NY media....or something like that. Don' know why they think that, but it seems to be the case.
we all have opinions right? This topic is subjective.

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 03:53 PM
I'm sure Rivers could of handled the NY media (maybe not as fantastically as Eli) to the degree that he would of needed to. You don't think he would of received help on how to handle the media from the FO? Plus his deep faith in religion and experience of dealing with multiple children would have his ability to handle stress higher than most would expect. He's actually a pretty cool guy off the field and is one of the few QBs who goes to the Manning Pass Academy (whatever that place is called) during the summer to help out.

2nd time ive heard about his multiple kids so i had to look it up - DAMN - he's got 6!!... good luck

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 03:56 PM
we all have opinions right? This topic is subjective.
Of course...But what I don't get is why people think that.
We see Eli and his laid back style and then for some reason we think thats the only way to handle the media. Well Pihil Simms' personality was a lot like Rivers. Simms would get in anybody's face. He thrived here. There are many ways to "handle the media" in NY. Mostly just stay true to yourself and oh yeah......BE GOOD.

TheEnigma
10-18-2012, 03:56 PM
we all have opinions right? This topic is subjective.

True but the whole "he is too fiery and emotional" angle that the media loves to play up seems a bit overblown to me personally the same way that Eli was questioned as a leader because he was too "quiet".


2nd time ive heard about his multiple kids so i had to look it up - DAMN - he's got 6!!... good luck

I couldn't even fathom having to deal with so many young children at once. I'd take the NY media over that anyday lol.

Roosevelt
10-18-2012, 03:57 PM
the revisionist history book leaves out how a few "realists" thought that the 25 int season was who "eli really was",

Hmmm, last time I checked Eli was a 25 INT QB. Many of us were upset over his play that year, including him.


and almost always compared to rivers/ben statistically.

Hate to break it to you but Eli will always be compared to Rivers and Big Ben, and I hope I don't have to explain why.



..i cant count the number of times I had to type the post "25 ints was anomaly.

Sorry but you posting anything about Eli is totally meaningless.


lets not bs ourselves here, there was a few posters, (some from this thread), who got off the bandwagon.

What bandwagon are you talking about? Yours and 3 others Eli Manning bandwagon? Please. We are Giants fan here. Please stop with your silly hero worshiping.


it took 2011 to remind people who eli really was as a qb

Wrong. Eli finally came around in 2011.


.there were some serious doubters who erased what eli had done prior to the 25 ints

If you regress you will be doubted. What's so difficult to figure out> Sports is always about "what have you done for me lately."

Even though you cannot grasp this, it was never anything personal against Eli Manning.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 04:03 PM
Hmmm, last time I checked Eli was a 25 INT QB. Many of us were upset over his play that year, including him.



Hate to break it to you but Eli will always be compared to Rivers and Big Ben, and I hope I don't have to explain why.



Sorry but you posting anything about Eli is totally meaningless.



What bandwagon are you talking about? Yours and 3 others Eli Manning bandwagon? Please. We are Giants fan here. Please stop with your silly hero worshiping.


Wrong. Eli finally came around in 2011.



If you regress you will be doubted. What's so difficult to figure out> Sports is always about "what have you done for me lately."

Even though you cannot grasp this, it was never anything personal against Eli Manning.

if you studied statistics in college, one would know that factually the "10" interception season was the anomaly.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 04:13 PM
Gunslingers throw interceptions......like it or not.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 04:28 PM
if you studied statistics in college, one would know that factually the "10" interception season was the anomaly.

In the years that Eli has played a full season (all except his rookie season and the current season), Eli is averaging 17.1 INTs per season. Based on this, 25 INTs is more of an outlier than 10 INTs by a small margin. Taking away both the 10 and the 25, his average is still 17 INTs per season.

Beyond that, if you look at his INT%, you would see that 2010 was the exception (at 4.6%) compared to every other full season where the INT% is below 4%. In fact, in 2008, 2009 and 2011 (the most recent seasons other than 2010), his INT% was below 3%. So from this, people who studied statistics would conclude that his INT performance in 2010 was the anomaly, not 2008 where his INT% was 2.1%.

Fwiw, I minored in statistics in college and had 4 semesters of graduate-level classes in the subject. The main thing I learned is that you can make statistics say anything you want...

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 04:30 PM
Gunslingers throw interceptions......like it or not.
He's not a gunslinger. That I completely disagree with. He's a far more effective QB when he is more careful with the ball. Last year he threw it away much more than previous seasons and was willing to take more sacks. The strongest evidence of my position are the two great playoff runs of Eli. 2007 and 2011. 8 wins. In those wins Eli threw a total of 2 interceptions. Far, far below his average. When Eli protects the ball, we can be a great team. When he's reckless, we are mediocre. The facts of his own record prove that.

I understand that the word "gunslinger" is subjective, but the implication is outside of Eli's personality and outside the scheme of our offense. And as his history suggests, when he resists the temptation to be a "gunslinger" who by your own definition is a guy who throws interceptions, we are a championship caliber team.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 04:32 PM
In the years that Eli has played a full season (all except his rookie season and the current season), Eli is averaging 17.1 INTs per season. Based on this, 25 INTs is more of an outlier than 10 INTs by a small margin. Taking away both the 10 and the 25, his average is still 17 INTs per season.

Beyond that, if you look at his INT%, you would see that 2010 was the exception (at 4.6%) compared to every other full season where the INT% is below 4%. In fact, in 2008, 2009 and 2011 (the most recent seasons other than 2010), his INT% was below 3%. So from this, people who studied statistics would conclude that his INT performance in 2010 was the anomaly, not 2008 where his INT% was 2.1%.

Fwiw, I minored in statistics in college and had 4 semesters of graduate-level classes in the subject. The main thing I learned is that you can make statistics say anything you want...
Yes I figured that out as well and you are right, but you get my point, he throws a lot of interceptions. But as I just proved in my last post, when he protects the ball, we win championships.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 04:37 PM
He's not a gunslinger. That I completely disagree with. He's a far more effective QB when he is more careful with the ball. Last year he threw it away much more than previous seasons and was willing to take more sacks. The strongest evidence of my position are the two great playoff runs of Eli. 2007 and 2011. 8 wins. In those wins Eli threw a total of 2 interceptions. Far, far below his average. When Eli protects the ball, we can be a great team. When he's reckless, we are mediocre. The facts of his own record prove that.

I understand that the word "gunslinger" is subjective, but the implication is outside of Eli's personality and outside the scheme of our offense. And as his history suggests, when he resists the temptation to be a "gunslinger" who by your own definition is a guy who throws interceptions, we are a championship caliber team.

Respectfully I have the complete opposite opinion on what a 'gunslinger' is.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 04:40 PM
Yes I figured that out as well and you are right, but you get my point, he throws a lot of interceptions. But as I just proved in my last post, when he protects the ball, we win championships.

You will certainly get no argument from me that turnovers are a big factor in wins vs. losses. Where I might get into a debate with you is the degree to which Eli takes chances versus protecting the ball, and how much of his production/turnover is the result of approaching the game differently vs. just being successful or not with what he's trying to do. I know that last year he had a great year with tons of yards and TDs and "only" 16 INTs...but I can remember a good number of completed passes where Cruz or Nicks or someone made their catches against double-coverage. Did Eli really make big changes to his game to reduce his INTs? Or did he approach it the same but made more precise throws? Or did he just get lucky? Overall, I don't know. What I do know is that I like the fact that Eli is willing to go for the jugular when the opportunity arises, and that he plays with a lot of trust with his receivers...

TheEnigma
10-18-2012, 04:41 PM
A gunslinger is a QB who frequently lives and dies by the big play in the air. They also wear Wrangler Jeans and send Adult themed pictures to college hotties in attempts to get them into the bedroom.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 04:43 PM
I believe a gunslinger is a QB who believes he can beat any coverage with his arm...

FBomb
10-18-2012, 04:47 PM
I believe a gunslinger is a QB who believes he can beat any coverage with his arm...

And that is exactly what Eli is.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 04:57 PM
Respectfully I have the complete opposite opinion on what a 'gunslinger' is.
You just said that "gunslingers throw interceptions, like it or not"...Those were your words, not mine.

I demonstrated with dispassionate facts that in the two great SB runs, totaling 8 games, Eli was, by your definition, a QB who was NOT a gunslinger. He was a QB who was careful with the football and threw only 2 picks in 8 games.
That is when he is a championship QB. When he DOES NOT throw picks. When he is NOT a gunslinger.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 04:59 PM
You just said that "gunslingers throw interceptions, like it or not"...Those were your words, not mine.

I demonstrated with dispassionate facts that in the two great SB runs, totaling 8 games, Eli was, by your definition, a QB who was NOT a gunslinger. He was a QB who was careful with the football and threw only 2 picks in 8 games.
That is when he is a championship QB. When he DOES NOT throw picks.

I would say that Manning-to-Tyree was indicative of a gunslinger more than not. Same with Manning-to-Manningham.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 05:04 PM
You just said that "gunslingers throw interceptions, like it or not"...Those were your words, not mine.

I demonstrated with dispassionate facts that in the two great SB runs, totaling 8 games, Eli was, by your definition, a QB who was NOT a gunslinger. He was a QB who was careful with the football and threw only 2 picks in 8 games.
That is when he is a championship QB. When he DOES NOT throw picks. When he is NOT a gunslinger.


You said Eli isn't and I say he is. That is what I meant by the complete opposite opinion of what a gunslinger is. He throws more interceptions because he is a gunslinger. He has 2 SB rings and 2 SB MVP. I'll take that trade.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 05:12 PM
I would say that Manning-to-Tyree was indicative of a gunslinger more than not. Same with Manning-to-Manningham.
It was third and long in the last minute and a half. He had to throw that ball. In the normal course of the game, he probably wouldn't. In his interview for NFL Network, he said that all he saw was the flash of a white jersey. No coach would teach a QB to throw a ball given that criteria. UNLESS it was desperation time and he had no choice.
On the Manningham play, he had one on one coverage and he is coached to throw that pass every time given that criteria. that was the proper decision.

But lets look at the two playoff runs and I'll show you exactly what I mean.
In 2007 during the regular season he averaged:
209 yards 1.44 TD'd and 1.25 Int's per game. In the playoffs it was
214 yards 1.5 TD's and .25 Int's per game

In 2011 regular season he averaged:
308 yards 1.82 TD's and 1.0 Int's per game In the playoffs it was:
305 yards 2.25 TD's and .25 Int's .

The yards and TD's were all close to his season averages. It was the INT's that was significantly better. He protected the ball better during those historic runs and that was the difference in being a good team and a championship team.

So you can see why I get so crazy with picks. When we throw them we are a decent team. When we protect the ball "being the anti-gunslinger" we win championships.
I like championships.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 05:14 PM
You said Eli isn't and I say he is. That is what I meant by the complete opposite opinion of what a gunslinger is. He throws more interceptions because he is a gunslinger. He has 2 SB rings and 2 SB MVP. I'll take that trade.
But we won the championships when he was NOT a gunslinger. By protecting the ball. This is simply a fact. He threw a total of 2 picks in those 8 games.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 05:17 PM
But we won the championships when he was NOT a gunslinger. By protecting the ball. This is simply a fact. He threw a total of 2 picks in those 8 games.

lol...because he threw it better!!! Every defense we faced in his first SB run vowed to stop the run and make Eli throw it. So he did. The second SB run came by from a season where we virtually had no running game and Eli's arm to get us to the playoffs.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 05:29 PM
lol...because he threw it better!!! Every defense we faced in his first SB run vowed to stop the run and make Eli throw it. So he did. The second SB run came by from a season where we virtually had no running game and Eli's arm to get us to the playoffs.
If he simply "threw it better" all things being the same he would have had more yards and TD's than his average that year. thats what happens when you throw it better. But in the case of BOTH SB runs, the only difference was his Int's. Which suggests the only difference in his game was better protecting the ball.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 05:37 PM
If he simply "threw it better" all things being the same he would have had more yards and TD's than his average that year. thats what happens when you throw it better. But in the case of BOTH SB runs, the only difference was his Int's. Which suggests the only difference in his game was better protecting the ball.

That's ridiculous!!! He protected the ball BY throwing it better. You and I are never going to agree on this.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 05:43 PM
It was third and long in the last minute and a half. He had to throw that ball. In the normal course of the game, he probably wouldn't. In his interview for NFL Network, he said that all he saw was the flash of a white jersey. No coach would teach a QB to throw a ball given that criteria. UNLESS it was desperation time and he had no choice.

Actually, it was 3rd and 5 (I wouldn't consider that long) with 2 time-outs left. A non-gunslinger would likely have thrown the ball away or look for a shorter route (Steve Smith was actually open on a cross underneath on that play). But a gunslinger would see the flash of a white jersey and go for it, risking it all because he believed he could make the throw.



On the Manningham play, he had one on one coverage and he is coached to throw that pass every time given that criteria. that was the proper decision.

It was definitely the proper decision but still a risky throw with a small window of success with the safety coming over the top. Still more gunslinger-ish than not.



But lets look at the two playoff runs and I'll show you exactly what I mean.
In 2007 during the regular season he averaged:
209 yards 1.44 TD'd and 1.25 Int's per game. In the playoffs it was
214 yards 1.5 TD's and .25 Int's per game

In 2011 regular season he averaged:
308 yards 1.82 TD's and 1.0 Int's per game In the playoffs it was:
305 yards 2.25 TD's and .25 Int's .

The yards and TD's were all close to his season averages. It was the INT's that was significantly better. He protected the ball better during those historic runs and that was the difference in being a good team and a championship team.

So you can see why I get so crazy with picks. When we throw them we are a decent team. When we protect the ball "being the anti-gunslinger" we win championships.
I like championships.

I like championships too, and as I said before, I agree that turnovers are bad. But this doesn't mean that just because Eli didn't throw INTs in a particular stretch of games that he isn't a gunslinger. Gunslinging is a mentality and an approach to the game...and imho, Eli has that mentality. Sometimes he takes unnecessary risks with the purpose of making a big play. He did it many times in 2011...

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 05:43 PM
That's ridiculous!!! He protected the ball BY throwing it better. You and I are never going to agree on this.
You are missing my point. If the numbers showed that he threw for more yards than average and more TD's than average, you would have a good point. Guys who throw it better than average generally have better numbers. More yards and more TD's along with fewer picks.
But thats not the case with Eli. His yards and TD's in those games were right in line with his average. They were games with AVERAGE yards and AVERAGE TD's. The ONLY number that was better than average was the Int's.
That is the formula for winning with our team. Eli is 35-10 in games where he throws no picks in his career.
We win when he protects the ball. By your own definition, "gunslingers" throw int's. I'm saying that Eli's record shows that we win when he doesn't.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 05:46 PM
If he simply "threw it better" all things being the same he would have had more yards and TD's than his average that year. thats what happens when you throw it better. But in the case of BOTH SB runs, the only difference was his Int's. Which suggests the only difference in his game was better protecting the ball.

He "threw it better" in 2011 and ended up with nearly 5000 yards, career highs in yards/attempt and yards/completion

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 05:48 PM
Actually, it was 3rd and 5 (I wouldn't consider that long) with 2 time-outs left. A non-gunslinger would likely have thrown the ball away or look for a shorter route (Steve Smith was actually open on a cross underneath on that play). But a gunslinger would see the flash of a white jersey and go for it, risking it all because he believed he could make the throw.





It was definitely the proper decision but still a risky throw with a small window of success with the safety coming over the top. Still more gunslinger-ish than not.



I like championships too, and as I said before, I agree that turnovers are bad. But this doesn't mean that just because Eli didn't throw INTs in a particular stretch of games that he isn't a gunslinger. Gunslinging is a mentality and an approach to the game...and imho, Eli has that mentality. Sometimes he takes unnecessary risks with the purpose of making a big play. He did it many times in 2011...
You are using one desperation play at the end of the game where we needed a TD or we lose. That is simply not enough to make your point. I used the two playoff runs that have defined Eli's career in their totality. The ONLY difference in his productivity in those 8 games was his ball security. his yards and TD's were right in line with his averages.
You can't be suggesting that you want our QB in a normal game situation to throw a ball at a "flash of a white jersey". If you do, I promise you will get disagreement from our coaching staff. (and would present a problem at home games..Haha)
that play was a desperation pass, in a desperation situation. It wasn't a "gunslinger" play at all.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 05:51 PM
He "threw it better" in 2011 and ended up with nearly 5000 yards, career highs in yards/attempt and yards/completion
Now that is correct. But we were still 9-7. It was ball security in the playoffs (and a great defense) that was the difference.
And be careful with the yardage totals. 2011 was a crazy year. We had three guys throw it for 5000.

And if you want to use your small sampling. Please notice that he threw for 196 yards last week and it was our best and most convincing win of the season against a good team.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 05:55 PM
You are using one desperation play at the end of the game where we needed a TD or we lose. That is simply not enough to make your point. I used the two playoff runs that have defined Eli's career in their totality. The ONLY difference in his productivity in those 8 games was his ball security. his yards and TD's were right in line with his averages.
You can't be suggesting that you want our QB in a normal game situation to throw a ball at a "flash of a white jersey". If you do, I promise you will get disagreement from our coaching staff. (and would present a problem at home games..Haha)
that play was a desperation pass, in a desperation situation. It wasn't a "gunslinger" play at all.

I'm also using his play in 2011, where there were multiple highlight films of Victor Cruz making great catches against double-teams (most notable ones against the Eagles and their "dream team" DBs) where even Eli commented "I probably shouldn't have thrown that"....but he goes for the big play because he believes he can make it. And even this year, with all the deep throws on 3rd and short...

Eli goes for the jugular. It's one of the reasons why I love the way he plays. It is indicative of him having a gunslinger's mentality. Based on this mentality, I don't ever expect him to have one of those 5-6INT seasons like Brady...I'd expect to see him settle into a 13-15 INT/season range...

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 05:58 PM
Now that is correct. But we were still 9-7. It was ball security in the playoffs (and a great defense) that was the difference.
And be careful with the yardage totals. 2011 was a crazy year. We had three guys throw it for 5000.

And if you want to use your small sampling. Please notice that he threw for 196 yards last week and it was our best and most convincing win of the season against a good team.

Again, I am all for ball-security. Just because because we like someone who is a gunslinger doesn't mean we like turnovers. And yes, I realize that football is a team sport...and if the defense is playing well, a gunslinger is happy to keep things conservative.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 05:59 PM
I'm also using his play in 2011, where there were multiple highlight films of Victor Cruz making great catches against double-teams (most notable ones against the Eagles and their "dream team" DBs) where even Eli commented "I probably shouldn't have thrown that"....but he goes for the big play because he believes he can make it. And even this year, with all the deep throws on 3rd and short...

Eli goes for the jugular. It's one of the reasons why I love the way he plays. It is indicative of him having a gunslinger's mentality. Based on this mentality, I don't ever expect him to have one of those 5-6INT seasons like Brady...I'd expect to see him settle into a 13-15 INT/season range...

Our offense last year, given the quality of our two top WR's, definitely was more apt to throw into one on one and give our WR's a chance to come down with it. Most of Eli's pick last year were not in that scenario. Our scheme last year (and this) tries to exploit those one on one matchups.
Eli's picks have never been the kind of plays where he sees one on one and our guy loses the battle for the ball. they usually come with very bad decisions in the pocket. Or inaccurate throws.

gumby74
10-18-2012, 06:00 PM
I'm not sure why people keep on wanting to insist that Eli's a gunslinger. Being a gun slinger means a lot of things. And not all of them are good. In fact, a good portion of it is bad.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:03 PM
Our offense last year, given the quality of our two top WR's, definitely was more apt to throw into one on one and give our WR's a chance to come down with it. Most of Eli's pick last year were not in that scenario. Our scheme last year (and this) tries to exploit those one on one matchups.

Eli threw tons of balls for 1-on-1s with Plax and Toomer all the time. But in 2011, there were tons of highlights of Eli throwing into 2-on-1's, with Cruz or Nicks winning those battles. He believed in his arm and he believed in his receivers...and as a result, was free to be the gunslinger that he is.



Eli's picks have never been the kind of plays where he sees one on one and our guy loses the battle for the ball. they usually come with very bad decisions in the pocket. Or inaccurate throws.

...or deflections off his open receiver's hands...or his receivers stopping on a route...

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:03 PM
I'm not sure why people keep on wanting to insist that Eli's a gunslinger. Being a gun slinger means a lot of things. And not all of them are good. In fact, a good portion of it is bad.
And I'll tell you another definition of a "gunslinger". Its a guy who wins despite throwing picks. Eli doesn't. His record when he throws at least one pick is horrific. His record when he throws exactly ONE pick in a game is sub .500.
His record when he throws no picks is 35-10. If you include playoffs it 41-11.

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 06:04 PM
To me there's always been some bit of recklessness and uncertainty associated with a gunslinger..... so by that definition i say Tyree catch, yes to gunslinger - Manningham catch was just a perfect throw...

Funny was in the last superbowl's "America's Game" Tuck said yes the Manningham catch was great, but Eli threw the ball so perfectly that Manningham had no choice but to catch that ball.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:05 PM
I'm not sure why people keep on wanting to insist that Eli's a gunslinger. Being a gun slinger means a lot of things. And not all of them are good. In fact, a good portion of it is bad.

Yes...there are certainly things about being a gunslinger that are bad. And perhaps the cultists out there think Eli is perfect and does nothing wrong so they would not believe him to be a gunslinger. But for some of us, we believe that Eli is a gunslinger and good very good at it...it does result in some bad things, but Eli is good enough to over-come those bad things most of the time...

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 06:06 PM
And I'll tell you another definition of a "gunslinger". Its a guy who wins despite throwing picks. Eli doesn't. His record when he throws at least one pick is horrific. His record when he throws exactly ONE pick in a game is sub .500.
His record when he throws no picks is 35-10. If you include playoffs it 41-11.

So what QB in your mind fits this definition?

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:08 PM
And I'll tell you another definition of a "gunslinger". Its a guy who wins despite throwing picks. Eli doesn't. His record when he throws at least one pick is horrific. His record when he throws exactly ONE pick in a game is sub .500.
His record when he throws no picks is 35-10. If you include playoffs it 41-11.

I've never heard that definition of gunslinger. What gunslinger has won despite picks?

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:09 PM
Eli threw tons of balls for 1-on-1s with Plax and Toomer all the time. But in 2011, there were tons of highlights of Eli throwing i



...or deflections off his open receiver's hands...or his receivers stopping on a route...
.
To me, a "gunslinger" doesn't throw it up for grabs, he thinks he can throw it where the defender casn't get it. Thats not the scenario you are describing.
The classic gunslinger was Farvre. He believed he could throw it when only the receiver could catch it.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:10 PM
So what QB in your mind fits this definition?
Farvre, Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Terry Bradshaw.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:12 PM
Farvre, Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Terry Bradshaw.

I started going through Favre's gamelogs, and at least in his first few years, his record when throwing 2+ picks was terrible. Do you have a review of his stats that would show that to be any different? Would be curious to see if Bradshaw and Stabler won a lot of games that they threw a ton of picks in, too...somehow I doubt it...

FBomb
10-18-2012, 06:12 PM
.
To me, a "gunslinger" doesn't throw it up for grabs, he thinks he can throw it where the defender casn't get it. Thats not the scenario you are describing.
The classic gunslinger was Farvre. He believed he could throw it when only the receiver could catch it.

Lol....you just described what Eli is NOW. He does it all the time. He also throws it where he believes his WR can make a play on it.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:13 PM
.
To me, a "gunslinger" doesn't throw it up for grabs, he thinks he can throw it where the defender casn't get it. Thats not the scenario you are describing.
The classic gunslinger was Farvre. He believed he could throw it when only the receiver could catch it.

I don't believe Eli ever throws the ball up for grabs (ok, maybe he has 2-3 times in his career)...I believe that even in 2010, he threw passes that he truly believed he could complete...and some of them were picked off.

TheEnigma
10-18-2012, 06:15 PM
Cutler is probably the QB closest to the definition of a gunslinger imo. Eli is more of a Peyton/Brady esque hybrid.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:20 PM
I started going through Favre's gamelogs, and at least in his first few years, his record when throwing 2+ picks was terrible. Do you have a review of his stats that would show that to be any different? Would be curious to see if Bradshaw and Stabler won a lot of games that they threw a ton of picks in, too...somehow I doubt it...
Well all QB's are terrible when they throw 2+ in a game. But look at when they throw excatly one pick. Eli is 21-20. Favre is 61-42. He's still a winning QB. Eli is a .500 QB.

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 06:20 PM
.
To me, a "gunslinger" doesn't throw it up for grabs, he thinks he can throw it where the defender casn't get it. Thats not the scenario you are describing.
The classic gunslinger was Farvre. He believed he could throw it when only the receiver could catch it.

He definitely believed it... he also has a near untouchable record in number of interceptions.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:21 PM
He definitely believed it... he also has a near untouchable record in number of interceptions.
he played for 1000 years, and never missed a game.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:25 PM
I think the conflict in here is based on some different opinions about what a gunslinger is. To some, it appears that gunslinger has some parallel to "careless" or "reckless", whereas others (including myself) think about it more in terms of being aggressive or taking chances for greater return. For me, I don't believe Eli has ever been careless or reckless as a Giants' QB...but has had instances/stretches where he was trying for too big of a payoff in circumstances that didn't need it (eg. the Tyree or Manningham play, the big TD throw to Cruz at the goal-line against the Eagles last year, etc). In 2010, I think he tried to be too aggressive...it wasn't because of carelessness or recklessness, but because of trying to do too much. Overall, it's based on having a gunslinger's mentality of being aggressive and going for the jugular...

gumby74
10-18-2012, 06:26 PM
In the years that Eli has played a full season (all except his rookie season and the current season), Eli is averaging 17.1 INTs per season. Based on this, 25 INTs is more of an outlier than 10 INTs by a small margin. Taking away both the 10 and the 25, his average is still 17 INTs per season.

Beyond that, if you look at his INT%, you would see that 2010 was the exception (at 4.6%) compared to every other full season where the INT% is below 4%. In fact, in 2008, 2009 and 2011 (the most recent seasons other than 2010), his INT% was below 3%. So from this, people who studied statistics would conclude that his INT performance in 2010 was the anomaly, not 2008 where his INT% was 2.1%.

Fwiw, I minored in statistics in college and had 4 semesters of graduate-level classes in the subject. The main thing I learned is that you can make statistics say anything you want...

If this were true (not saying it isn't), I'm surprised you haven't jumped at the obscene number of people throwing statistics left and right around here. It drives me crazy and in the past, that's when I was often pulled into the Eli debates. And this kind of number crunching is at a high school level at most.

Cloud57
10-18-2012, 06:29 PM
If you ask Chargers fans they would rather have Eli Manning

gumby74
10-18-2012, 06:30 PM
If you ask Chargers fans they would rather have Eli Manning Now they would. A few years ago, they wouldn't.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:32 PM
I think the conflict in here is based on some different opinions about what a gunslinger is. To some, it appears that gunslinger has some parallel to "careless" or "reckless", whereas others (including myself) think about it more in terms of being aggressive or taking chances for greater return. For me, I don't believe Eli has ever been careless or reckless as a Giants' QB...but has had instances/stretches where he was trying for too big of a payoff in circumstances that didn't need it (eg. the Tyree or Manningham play, the big TD throw to Cruz at the goal-line against the Eagles last year, etc). In 2010, I think he tried to be too aggressive...it wasn't because of carelessness or recklessness, but because of trying to do too much. Overall, it's based on having a gunslinger's mentality of being aggressive and going for the jugular...
I think a gunslinger tends to be somewhat more reckless with the ball due to the personality it suggests. Favre was also just dumb with the ball. He took foolish risks that cost his team huge playoff games. thats a separate issue.
I don't want a "gunslinger" as my QB. Quite honestly they will kill you in the end and cost you championships. Guys who win championships these days are very judicious with the ball. As we've seen with Eli, we win championships when he takes great care with the ball. When he throw 2 picks in 8 games, thats a recipe for rings. thats all I'm saying.
I think some of you guys like the romantic notion of a gunslinger and assign it to Eli because it makes you feel good. thats fine with me if you want to do that to make yourself feel better.
But "gunslingers don't really win championships. they break your heart. Eli has 2 in 7 years of being a starter. And he did it with historic ball protection in those 2 SB runs.

giantsfan420
10-18-2012, 06:33 PM
Lol....you just described what Eli is NOW. He does it all the time. He also throws it where he believes his WR can make a play on it.
i know right...eh its subjective. i consider eli to be of the gun slinger mold, he def. believes in his arm. the pass to MM in the SB, he had to know how small a window he was aiming at as he let it go. qbs wouldnt stop raving about how the window was like 12 inches or something....eli makes that throw bc he believes he can. i think todays qbs all have some "gunslinger" in them. some play poorly in that mode, some dont have the physical or mental ability to succeed in that role. I believe Eli is the perfect QB to do the gunslinger...for one, he prob despises ints more than anyone. i'd say if anything 2010 gave him a great cheat sheet when he reviewed each and every throw. guy is so maticulous in his studying that hes processing things during the game and adding them to his notebooks during his film review. i think eli did a much better job of avoiding unneccesary risks and MS is right in a way bc part of that was throwing it away more/taking a sack more.

but i dont think there was one time eli saw a window, no matter how small, that he felt he couldnt make the throw. to me it seems like he's constantly battling himself, not even the D really. i know that look, like a golfer. he's constantly utilizing his mind accessing data as quickly as possible. when a mistake happens, it auto saves into his brain lol. thats why i think he makes the looks he does after bad plays. people thought it was him not caring or something when really, i know that look again, it was disgust with himself for making a mistake he knew better than to make.

all that said, there isnt a throw i've yet to see eli make. dude has the greatest play in sb history imo, maybe even top 2 plays/throws however u wanna classify it. he is KILLER when the games on the line, in fact thats when he's at his best. when theres no real inhibition, u gotta go win it by making stick throw after stick throw...how many times has he done it on the way to 2 sbs now?

its all subjective tho

Cloud57
10-18-2012, 06:34 PM
Now they would. A few years ago, they wouldn't.

I was on their boards a year ago and they all said they wanted Eli, a few of them hated him though because of the draft/trade issue.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:34 PM
If this were true (not saying it isn't), I'm surprised you haven't jumped at the obscene number of people throwing statistics left and right around here. It drives me crazy and in the past, that's when I was often pulled into the Eli debates. And this kind of number crunching is at a high school level at most.

I graduated from college 25 years ago and haven't really used any of my statistics background since...!

That said, I don't jump in and make any kind of big deals around this stuff because I do believe what I wrote...that you can pretty much make stats say whatever you want...and I didn't want to become known as "the stats police" on this message board... :-p In any case, this is all for fun, so exercising some creativity pouring thru stats and drawing conclusions is fun, even it it isn't really valid... :-)

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:39 PM
i know right...eh its subjective. i consider eli to be of the gun slinger mold, he def. believes in his arm. the pass to MM in the SB, he had to know how small a window he was aiming at as he let it go. qbs wouldnt stop raving about how the window was like 12 inches or something....eli makes that throw bc he believes he can. i think todays qbs all have some "gunslinger" in them. some play poorly in that mode, some dont have the physical or mental ability to succeed in that role. I believe Eli is the perfect QB to do the gunslinger...for one, he prob despises ints more than anyone. i'd say if anything 2010 gave him a great cheat sheet when he reviewed each and every throw. guy is so maticulous in his studying that hes processing things during the game and adding them to his notebooks during his film review. i think eli did a much better job of avoiding unneccesary risks and MS is right in a way bc part of that was throwing it away more/taking a sack more.

but i dont think there was one time eli saw a window, no matter how small, that he felt he couldnt make the throw. to me it seems like he's constantly battling himself, not even the D really. i know that look, like a golfer. he's constantly utilizing his mind accessing data as quickly as possible. when a mistake happens, it auto saves into his brain lol. thats why i think he makes the looks he does after bad plays. people thought it was him not caring or something when really, i know that look again, it was disgust with himself for making a mistake he knew better than to make.

all that said, there isnt a throw i've yet to see eli make. dude has the greatest play in sb history imo, maybe even top 2 plays/throws however u wanna classify it. he is KILLER when the games on the line, in fact thats when he's at his best. when theres no real inhibition, u gotta go win it by making stick throw after stick throw...how many times has he done it on the way to 2 sbs now?

its all subjective tho
In my view Eli's best play was last year to Manningham. It was a perfect throw and the right decision and delivered in a calm, determined way. By Eli's own admission, in the Tyree play, he simply saw a flash of a white jersey and threw it in desperation. One Giants said (I can't remember who) that the ball seemed to hang in the air forever. It was an exiting play but it could be made by a lot of QB's. Not many could deliver that pass to MM last year with that kind of precision.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:39 PM
I think a gunslinger tends to be somewhat more reckless with the ball due to the personality it suggests. Favre was also just dumb with the ball. He took foolish risks that cost his team huge playoff games. thats a separate issue.
I don't want a "gunslinger" as my QB. Quite honestly they will kill you in the end and cost you championships. Guys who win championships these days are very judicious with the ball. As we've seen with Eli, we win championships when he takes great care with the ball. When he throw 2 picks in 8 games, thats a recipe for rings. thats all I'm saying.
I think some of you guys like the romantic notion of a gunslinger and assign it to Eli because it makes you feel good. thats fine with me if you want to do that to make yourself feel better.
But "gunslingers don't really win championships. they break your heart. Eli has 2 in 7 years of being a starter. And he did it with historic ball protection in those 2 SB runs.

Certainly there is a romantic notion to the word "Gunslinger", and I'll admit to liking it. But Wyatt Earp was a gunslinger, and he was surgical with a gun...known as "the toughest and deadliest gunman of his day".

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 06:40 PM
In the years that Eli has played a full season (all except his rookie season and the current season), Eli is averaging 17.1 INTs per season. Based on this, 25 INTs is more of an outlier than 10 INTs by a small margin. Taking away both the 10 and the 25, his average is still 17 INTs per season.

Beyond that, if you look at his INT%, you would see that 2010 was the exception (at 4.6%) compared to every other full season where the INT% is below 4%. In fact, in 2008, 2009 and 2011 (the most recent seasons other than 2010), his INT% was below 3%. So from this, people who studied statistics would conclude that his INT performance in 2010 was the anomaly, not 2008 where his INT% was 2.1%.

Fwiw, I minored in statistics in college and had 4 semesters of graduate-level classes in the subject. The main thing I learned is that you can make statistics say anything you want...

Just for the sake of comparison:

Taken from a 2009 article http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/brett-favre-and-the-interception-myth/

"Arnie Herber: 9.0 (1,175 attempts, 106 INTs)

Bob Waterfield: 7.9% (1,617 attempts, 128 INTs)

Sid Luckman: 7.6% (1,744 attempts, 132 INTs)

George Blanda: 6.9% (4,007 attempts, 277 INTs)

Sammy Baugh: 6.8% (2,995 attempts, 203 INTs)

Bobby Layne: 6.6% (3,700 attempts, 243 INTs)

Norm Van Brocklin: 6.1% (2,895 attempts, 178 INTs)

Joe Namath: 5.8% (3,762 attempts, 220 INTs)

Y.A. Tittle: 5.6% (4,395 attempts, 248 INTs)

Terry Bradshaw: 5.4% (3,901 attempts, 210 INTs)

Otto Graham: 5.1% (2,626 attempts, 135 INTs)

Bob Griese: 5.0% (3,429 attempts, 172 INTs)

Johnny Unitas: 4.9% (5,186 attempts, 253 INTs)

Len Dawson: 4.9% (3,741 attempts, 183 INTs)

Bart Starr: 4.4% (3,149 attempts, 138 INTs)

Sonny Jurgensen: 4.4% (4,262 attempts, 189 INTs)

Dan Fouts: 4.3% (5,604 attempts, 242 INTs)

Fran Tarkenton: 4.1% (6,467 attempts, 266 INTs)

Roger Staubach: 3.7% (2,958 attempts, 109 INTs)

Jim Kelly: 3.7% (4,779 attempts, 175 INTs)

Boomer Esiason: 3.5% (5,205 attempts, 184 INTs)

Warren Moon: 3.4% (6,823 attempts, 233 INTs)

Brett Favre: 3.3% (9,280 attempts, 310 INTs)

Furthermore, Favre’s interception percentage isn’t terribly higher than that of these Hall of Famers:

John Elway: 3.1 (7,250 attempts, 226 INTs)

Dan Marino: 3.0 (8,358 attempts, 252 INTs)

Troy Aikman: 3.0 (4,715 attempts, 141 INTs)"

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:41 PM
I graduated from college 25 years ago and haven't really used any of my statistics background since...!

That said, I don't jump in and make any kind of big deals around this stuff because I do believe what I wrote...that you can pretty much make stats say whatever you want...and I didn't want to become known as "the stats police" on this message board... :-p In any case, this is all for fun, so exercising some creativity pouring thru stats and drawing conclusions is fun, even it it isn't really valid... :-)
if you had majored in statistics I would give your view credibility. But since you only minored in it, I have to assume you probably sucked at it and barely got enough credits to qualify it as a minor.

I crack myself up sometimes.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:45 PM
Certainly there is a romantic notion to the word "Gunslinger", and I'll admit to liking it. But Wyatt Earp was a gunslinger, and he was surgical with a gun...known as "the toughest and deadliest gunman of his day".
OK, I'm just going to come out and say it.
Eli is a goof. Sean O'Hara said that he trips over his own feet and that he was shocked he escaped in the Tyree play. He's a goofy, elastic man and by definition he aint no gunslinger. He carried little toy buckets around on the beach with his pasty white skinny body. He's built more like a pre teen girl than an NFL football player.
Great QB...but a goofy dork. It makes me love him all the more, but you guys are crazy with this "gunslinger" nonsense.

Now go ahead and kill Good Ol' Morehead.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:50 PM
if you had majored in statistics I would give your view credibility. But since you only minored in it, I have to assume you probably sucked at it and barely got enough credits to qualify it as a minor.

I crack myself up sometimes.

But you are deadly accurate.... ;-)

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 06:51 PM
OK, I'm just going to come out and say it.
Eli is a goof. Sean O'Hara said that he trips over his own feet and that he was shocked he escaped in the Tyree play. He's a goofy, elastic man and by definition he aint no gunslinger. He carried little toy buckets around on the beach with his pasty white skinny body. He's built more like a pre teen girl than an NFL football player.
Great QB...but a goofy dork. It makes me love him all the more, but you guys are crazy with this "gunslinger" nonsense.

Now go ahead and kill Good Ol' Morehead.

He's a goof off the field...but on the field, he's a gunslinger...

rainierjef
10-18-2012, 06:52 PM
OK, I'm just going to come out and say it.
Eli is a goof. Sean O'Hara said that he trips over his own feet and that he was shocked he escaped in the Tyree play. He's a goofy, elastic man and by definition he aint no gunslinger. He carried little toy buckets around on the beach with his pasty white skinny body. He's built more like a pre teen girl than an NFL football player.
Great QB...but a goofy dork. It makes me love him all the more, but you guys are crazy with this "gunslinger" nonsense.

Now go ahead and kill Good Ol' Morehead.

Lmao you are a glutton for punishment.... but I agree and this is why Eli won't win the league MVP.

No Charisma, doesn't do photo ops for magazines like brady, often describe by analyst and other fans as the down syndrome facial expressions ( i really hate that analogy )

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 06:55 PM
Lmao you are a glutton for punishment.... but I agree and this is why Eli won't win the league MVP.

No Charisma, doesn't do photo ops for magazines like brady, often describe by analyst and other fans as the down syndrome facial expressions ( i really hate that analogy )
Ahhh..But you are wrong my friend.
I predict that he will be the league MVP this season. He will give acceptance to all those kids like Eli who got beat up for lunch money in high school.

Morehead has spoken.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 07:00 PM
Lmao you are a glutton for punishment.... but I agree and this is why Eli won't win the league MVP.

No Charisma, doesn't do photo ops for magazines like brady, often describe by analyst and other fans as the down syndrome facial expressions ( i really hate that analogy )

He had tons of charisma on SNL!

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 07:06 PM
GUNSLINGER??????
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1055988.1340895282%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_635/eli-manning.jpg

rainierjef
10-18-2012, 07:11 PM
Ahhh..But you are wrong my friend.
I predict that he will be the league MVP this season. He will give acceptance to all those kids like Eli who got beat up for lunch money in high school.

Morehead has spoken.

lol you do understand the League MVP is a popularity contest right? Eli can throw for 5k yards, 30+ TD's and have less that 13 ints and still not win it over the likes of brees, brady, rodgers, or right now the next backstreet boy matty ice.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 07:12 PM
lol you do understand the League MVP is a popularity contest right? Eli can throw for 5k yards, 30+ TD's and have less that 13 ints and still not win it over the likes of brees, brady, rodgers, or right now the next backstreet boy matty ice.
People are warming up to Eli.
It will be between his brother and Eli. If we win our division I think the sentimental choice is Eli. Don't forget that most sports writers are dorks too!

Drez
10-18-2012, 07:22 PM
lol you do understand the League MVP is a popularity contest right? Eli can throw for 5k yards, 30+ TD's and have less that 13 ints and still not win it over the likes of brees, brady, rodgers, or right now the next backstreet boy matty ice.
Then why is Eli spoken as a top candidate for MVP in every article/discussion about MVP?

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 07:35 PM
GUNSLINGER??????
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1055988.1340895282%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_635/eli-manning.jpg

Cue Harooni

rainierjef
10-18-2012, 07:46 PM
Then why is Eli spoken as a top candidate for MVP in every article/discussion about MVP?

Links please

gumby74
10-18-2012, 08:32 PM
Links please There was one on espn .. Peyton vs Eli. I can't find it now unfortunately

rainierjef
10-18-2012, 08:36 PM
There was one on espn .. Peyton vs Eli. I can't find it now unfortunately

I want the ones that said eli is a top candidate for MVP, not if he's better or worst than his brother; assuming that is what that Peyton vs eli article is about.

TheEnigma
10-18-2012, 08:40 PM
I honestly don't see how Peyton loses the MVP race if he plays at his current pace. The tough part of the Broncos schedule is over and now he gets 4 games where he gets to pick on the Raiders and Chiefs. Those games should give his statistics a huge boost. Plus he has the new team and coming off a serious injury angle to work with also.

Eli will probably be in the thick of many MVP races to come but I don't know if the guy will actually ever win one.

Edit: Nevermind, he already put up a 130 QB whooper on the Raiders once. My point still stands though.

Roosevelt
10-18-2012, 09:08 PM
Gunslingers throw interceptions......like it or not.

This is true.

gumby74
10-18-2012, 09:42 PM
I want the ones that said eli is a top candidate for MVP, not if he's better or worst than his brother; assuming that is what that Peyton vs eli article is about. Actually it said that the MVP race would come down to those two.

Roosevelt
10-18-2012, 11:10 PM
OK, I'm just going to come out and say it.
Eli is a goof. Sean O'Hara said that he trips over his own feet and that he was shocked he escaped in the Tyree play. He's a goofy, elastic man and by definition he aint no gunslinger. He carried little toy buckets around on the beach with his pasty white skinny body. He's built more like a pre teen girl than an NFL football player.
Great QB...but a goofy dork. It makes me love him all the more, but you guys are crazy with this "gunslinger" nonsense.

Now go ahead and kill Good Ol' Morehead.

lmao

Roosevelt
10-18-2012, 11:11 PM
GUNSLINGER??????
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1055988.1340895282!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_635/eli-manning.jpg

How could Abby allow those trunks?

Drez
10-19-2012, 12:25 AM
Links please
Go to Sando's MVP Watch feature on ESPN, or any other football sites MVP watch feature.

Drez
10-19-2012, 12:30 AM
I want the ones that said eli is a top candidate for MVP, not if he's better or worst than his brother; assuming that is what that Peyton vs eli article is about.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/78500/mike-sandos-mvp-watch-59

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000081624/article/nfl-mvp-forecast-robert-griffin-iii-now-a-contender

T (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/78500/mike-sandos-mvp-watch-59)hose are the only ones I'm going to grab tonight... You can search the web for others if you desire.

ashleymarie
10-19-2012, 12:36 AM
Farvre, Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Terry Bradshaw.

You are certainly correct about the Snake. Pick City.

BurnerNYG
10-19-2012, 05:49 AM
OK, I'm just going to come out and say it.
Eli is a goof. Sean O'Hara said that he trips over his own feet and that he was shocked he escaped in the Tyree play. He's a goofy, elastic man and by definition he aint no gunslinger. He carried little toy buckets around on the beach with his pasty white skinny body. He's built more like a pre teen girl than an NFL football player.
Great QB...but a goofy dork. It makes me love him all the more, but you guys are crazy with this "gunslinger" nonsense.

Now go ahead and kill Good Ol' Morehead.Lol call it how you see it right?

sideline sneek
10-19-2012, 10:41 AM
I'd love to have "Whining Rivers" in NY maybe for just one game. A lot of new cars and dreams can be had betting against him!

Morehead State
10-19-2012, 10:58 AM
I'd love to have "Whining Rivers" in NY maybe for just one game. A lot of new cars and dreams can be had betting against him!
Whining? You mean complaining about calls? What QB doesn't do that?

yoeddy
10-19-2012, 11:01 AM
Whining? You mean complaining about calls? What QB doesn't do that?

Eli?

Morehead State
10-19-2012, 11:03 AM
Eli?
Right. Eli doesn't hold his hands out looking for a PI call?
Every QB does that. Rivers just wears it on his sleeve more.

yoeddy
10-19-2012, 11:08 AM
Right. Eli doesn't hold his hands out looking for a PI call?
Every QB does that. Rivers just wears it on his sleeve more.

I think it's the "wearing it on his sleeve" thing that's the issue...I wouldn't call Eli holding his hands out as "whining"...

Morehead State
10-19-2012, 11:13 AM
I think it's the "wearing it on his sleeve" thing that's the issue...
A lot of great players "wore their hearts on their sleeve". There was a pretty good QB for the Giants who did that.
Being a cool customer isn't the only way to deal with playing in NY.

yoeddy
10-19-2012, 11:16 AM
A lot of great players "wore their hearts on their sleeve". There was a pretty good QB for the Giants who did that.
Being a cool customer isn't the only way to deal with playing in NY.

Absolutely...but there is passion, and then there is whining...

sc_markt
10-19-2012, 03:07 PM
I found the following 2007 comment on the Chargers message boards:



Good god, did you see the NYG play tonight? Eli Manning and their passing attack are the absolute epitome of a pathetic, slumped-shoulder, pouty offense. They are infinitely worse than the Chargers at our worst early this year.


Unlike Rivers, who -- even when he sucks -- at least sounds and looks like a winner, Eli looks like a little girl at the state fair who just had the big rainbow lollipop knocked out of her hand by a stiff wind. He looks like a total loser, all the time, on the verge of bursting into tears.


Pouting, looking at the sky, dragging his feet. You can tell the players have no respect for him. The right guard on a late play turns around and walks toward Eli with his hands raised, like whaaaaat was that? Every single pass is short, off target, behind people.


I cannot imagine how on God's green earth they have won 9 games. Seriously, how are they a playoff team? Who's on their schedule? The Pac-10?


<strong>Anyway, my point in all this: THANK GOD that dumb*** insulted SD and didn't want to play here. Hey Eli, gr***i! Enjoy NY and your abysmal career, bud. Here's you. Here's your brother. Yeah, not so close.</strong>

<a href="http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=50188" target="_blank">http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=50188</a><br>

Ruttiger711
10-19-2012, 03:32 PM
I found the following 2007 comment on the Chargers message boards:

I hope you bumped the thread :)

nycsportzfan
10-19-2012, 04:27 PM
i dont disagree, but it is a matter of perspective ... Eli won the Super Bowl in his 3rd full season as a starting NFL QB .. .that's not exactly a slow start in the Super Bowl sense ... regular season OK

and kinda as you were saying he's improved every year in some way ... now one could argue he went from a low INT year in 2008 to a bad INT year in 2010, but nobody can deny how hard he works, how passionate he is and how humble he is and his humility allows him to be open minded enough to continue working hard to improve

and while his humility may have made it more challenging for him to become the true leader of the team ... winning and hard work have set the example and made him the true leader he is now all thats fine, i'm not talking about his commitment, i'm talking about the topic at hand, and how its messed up that someone would bring this up now, when ELI has clearly jumped into the forefront and ahead of both Rivers and Ben.. ELI is probably the best QB in the NFL right now, in my opinion.. To debate this now is silly.. Rivers is looking like a qb that had his best days and is now not the same QB, which happens, as they all can't be great there entire career, or the Hall of Fame would be a crowded place..lol As for ben, hes turning into a brittle dude whos had many injury problems, and statstically is losing out to ELI over these past couple seasons.. The bottom line is ELI clearly jumped both these guys in the past couple yrs, where i think there is no room for debate, in which this thread is silly, because when people were debating Rivers and Ben and ELI, it was more comparable..

Hence, if u are debating say RG3 and Cam Newton right now, and who u thinks better, and its not clear as day, and then some dude comes on here 2yrs down the road after cam has done ok but not great, and RG3 has been super, and calls people morons for thinking cam is better then RG3...lol I'm just using that as a example..

sc_markt
10-19-2012, 05:09 PM
I hope you bumped the thread :)

I can't, I'm not a member there. But now that you mentioned it...

Ruttiger711
10-22-2012, 04:26 PM
I'm not sure why people keep on wanting to insist that Eli's a gunslinger. Being a gun slinger means a lot of things. And not all of them are good. In fact, a good portion of it is bad.


And I'll tell you another definition of a "gunslinger". Its a guy who wins despite throwing picks. Eli doesn't. His record when he throws at least one pick is horrific. His record when he throws exactly ONE pick in a game is sub .500.
His record when he throws no picks is 35-10. If you include playoffs it 41-11.

I knew the skins game reminded me of something.

Morehead State
10-22-2012, 04:29 PM
I knew the skins game reminded me of something.
The pick in the 4th quarter wasn't the result of a gunslinger. It was as dumb as any play he's ever made. Pure stupidity.
But he made the play when he had to and that makes him a clutch QB.

Ruttiger711
10-22-2012, 04:38 PM
I'm not sure why people keep on wanting to insist that Eli's a gunslinger. Being a gun slinger means a lot of things. And not all of them are good. In fact, a good portion of it is bad.


And I'll tell you another definition of a "gunslinger". Its a guy who wins despite throwing picks. Eli doesn't. His record when he throws at least one pick is horrific. His record when he throws exactly ONE pick in a game is sub .500.
His record when he throws no picks is 35-10. If you include playoffs it 41-11.


The pick in the 4th quarter wasn't the result of a gunslinger. It was as dumb as any play he's ever made. Pure stupidity.
But he made the play when he had to and that makes him a clutch QB.

Wasnt saying it proves either point... just i thought of this thread immediately.

I do disagree with the "dumb play" and "stupid play" comments regarding the int yesterday though - it implies that Eli saw the LB and threw it anyway, he said he didnt see him and I have no reason to doubt him. Same thing was being said about his pick against Philly.

Eli has a blind spot with LBers from time to time - i dont know why but he misses them COMPLETELY sometimes.

A bad read does not equal "stupid" play.

bigjeep
10-22-2012, 04:43 PM
I sure don't. Watching game rewind and I FREAKIN' LOVE ELI MANNING!!!!

We might have two more SB's with Rivers?

bigjeep
10-22-2012, 04:44 PM
The pick in the 4th quarter wasn't the result of a gunslinger. It was as dumb as any play he's ever made. Pure stupidity.
But he made the play when he had to and that makes him a clutch QB.

Did you just call Eli stupid?

Morehead State
10-22-2012, 05:34 PM
Did you just call Eli stupid?http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.3701493.1336282047%21/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/display_600/image.jpg

Would Morehead ever do that???????