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joeybagadonutz23
10-15-2012, 03:15 AM
I sure don't. Watching game rewind and I FREAKIN' LOVE ELI MANNING!!!!

Marvelousmik
10-15-2012, 04:39 AM
rivers is still better.

Marvelousmik
10-15-2012, 04:39 AM
just kidding

GMan-67
10-15-2012, 04:45 AM
i want him back !

just for 1 additional fake minute

b/c that fake Giants jersey we gave him

might be worth something, since it will be great memorabilia to highlight the single worst trade in NFL history

GMEN !!!!

oh and Chargers we may need another franchise QB in around 8 years, so anything you can do to start scouting that out for us would be greatly appreciated .... as always there's an overrated 5 year LB in it for ya

joeybagadonutz23
10-15-2012, 04:52 AM
HAHAHAHA. Love the responses!!!

Captain Chaos
10-15-2012, 04:54 AM
I lived in San Diego for 10 years and suffered through the huge animosity towards Eli especially that first game he played them in San Diego; nauseating. While I think River's is a good QB Eli is da man! They can keep Rivers in San Diego!

SweetZombieJesus
10-15-2012, 05:59 AM
Can't believe what Eli has developed into.

I still love rubbing it in to the Philly fans I know who called him "Eli Melting" and are the "Eli was adopted" types.

CDN_G-FAN
10-15-2012, 06:21 AM
funny how things changed.

we used to argue about how much we overpaid for Eli.

given a couple rings and what he's capable of doing, we underpaid.

NYGfanNC
10-15-2012, 08:22 AM
I want him....to stay in SD

Toadofsteel
10-15-2012, 08:22 AM
Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine.

Kruunch
10-15-2012, 08:23 AM
This is still a conversation? Really?!

gumby74
10-15-2012, 08:44 AM
The trade worked out for both. San Diego got out of the dumps and we became two time SB champions.

Kruunch
10-15-2012, 08:46 AM
The trade worked out for both. San Diego got out of the dumps and we became two time SB champions.

Yeah ... thank god the Chargers ridded themselves of Drew Brees and got the overwhelming influence of Sean Merrimen and Nate Kaeding.

Wait .... wut?

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 09:00 AM
Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine.WTH are you talking about Strahan truly becoming a Giant? Who was Strahan back in 98 or 99 when he was icing games for us to beat the Eagles? A Packer? You mean to tell me I was watching the Bills in the Superbowl against The Ravens? Eli was not always the way he is now... stop kidding yourself.

GCGiant
10-15-2012, 09:19 AM
Eli was not always the way he is now... stop kidding yourself.
Who's kidding themselves....really.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 09:30 AM
Who's kidding themselves....really.So you mean to tell me that Eli, the man who threw for 37 yards against the Ravens is the same player he is today? You mean to tell me that bigtime 4th quarter QB he is today is the same guy who threw 4 picks against Carolina in the playoffs. I hate for people to throw legends and guys who went to war for this team when Eli was still in diapers under the bus. Go head with all that noise, fake Giant fans.

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 09:33 AM
So you mean to tell me that Eli, the man who threw for 37 yards against the Ravens is the same player he is today? You mean to tell me that bigtime 4th quarter QB he is today is the same guy who threw 4 picks against Carolina in the playoffs. I hate for people to throw legends and guys who went to war for this team when Eli was still in diapers under the bus. Go head with all that noise, fake Giant fans.
No...It was all those "strong personalities" that kept Eli down. He was a HOF player even then!!!

nycisgreat
10-15-2012, 09:39 AM
I lived in San Diego for 10 years and suffered through the huge animosity towards Eli especially that first game he played them in San Diego; nauseating. While I think River's is a good QB Eli is da man! They can keep Rivers in San Diego!

+1

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 09:40 AM
This was a popular thread topic....6 YEARS AGO!

CTLadyBlue
10-15-2012, 09:41 AM
Who the heck ever wanted him to begin with???? Certainly not I.

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 09:43 AM
This was a popular thread topic....6 YEARS AGO!
I do think its time to let this nonsense go.

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 09:45 AM
Everyone on this thread getting bent out of shape: relax. If some fans fail to see the fact the Strahan was an amazing "true Giant" wellll before 2007 then so be it. If some think that QB's dont progress and Eli is the same as he was in 05, so b...wow yeah that one really gets me. Lets be serious, you are ALWAYS improving as a player in any game you play. ANY. Chess, Football, XBOX...you get better the older you get and the more you play. There is no joy in arguing this point. im done

nhpgiantsfan
10-15-2012, 09:45 AM
I sure don't. Watching game rewind and I FREAKIN' LOVE ELI MANNING!!!!

I thought we ended this discussion in 2007.

krygny
10-15-2012, 09:47 AM
Who the heck ever wanted him to begin with???? Certainly not I.

I never wanted Rivers or Roethlisberger. They're both meatheads.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 09:50 AM
No...It was all those "strong personalities" that kept Eli down. He was a HOF player even then!!!I just found out that all the Giants before Eli and Coughlin aren't real Giants. I guess that means the only real fans around here are the ones who jumped on the bandwagon in 2004.

BParcells777
10-15-2012, 09:54 AM
Funny I did not read the topic right.....I thought you meant the other Phllips- Kenny.

I love the physical play of Stevie Brown, and he seems uncommonly cool out there under pressure. He has a nose for the football.

If I were the Giants I would bring Philips back for the nickle and dime packages but leave Brown in the regular defense.......he is a tough tough kid.

Flip Empty
10-15-2012, 10:12 AM
Rivers' career is being wasted by AJ Smith and co. Amazing how bad they've been at managing that team.

CDN_G-FAN
10-15-2012, 10:13 AM
Rivers' career is being wasted by AJ Smith and co. Amazing how bad they've been at managing that team.

Which is what Archie heard before the draft, hence the big controversy.

Which as been proven 100% absolutely true.

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 10:26 AM
The Mannings are a classy bunch, they arent going to send their golden boy to play for SanDiego, or Oakland or any other terribly managed team

wuzpapn
10-15-2012, 10:27 AM
I would want Rivers back.



as a back-up.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 10:30 AM
The Mannings are a classy bunch, they arent going to send their golden boy to play for SanDiego, or Oakland or any other terribly managed teamHonestly, it's not their choice or job to manipulate the draft and I'm glad they stopped showing Archie in the stands all the time.

joeybagadonutz23
10-15-2012, 10:31 AM
I thought we ended this discussion in 2007.

Participation is not mandatory. But thanks for sharing.

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 10:32 AM
I just found out that all the Giants before Eli and Coughlin aren't real Giants. I guess that means the only real fans around here are the ones who jumped on the bandwagon in 2004.
And you're just finding this out now?
There was nothing before Eli and there will be nothing after Eli.

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 10:34 AM
Participation is not mandatory. But thanks for sharing.
Participation (by calling out a ridiculous thread) is DEFINITELY mandatory.

Fans who continually try to pit Giants fans against each other must be exposed for the trite, petty posters they are.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 10:37 AM
And you're just finding this out now?
There was nothing before Eli and there will be nothing after Eli.Yup and LT and Simms are just a figment of our imagination. I get it now.

Toadofsteel
10-15-2012, 10:40 AM
Yup and LT and Simms are just a figment of our imagination. I get it now.

LT and Simms retired when I was 5 years old. I became a Giants fan in 1994. I thought Fassel didn't really care all that much about what was going on, and let guys like Tiki and Shockey get away with so much. So yes, in a way, it's all ELI for me, because the only other people I've witnessed play QB for the Giants are Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, Kent Graham, and Kerry Collins (and those couple of games with Kurt Warner).

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 10:43 AM
LT and Simms retired when I was 5 years old. I became a Giants fan in 1994. I thought Fassel didn't really care all that much about what was going on, and let guys like Tiki and Shockey get away with so much. So yes, in a way, it's all ELI for me, because the only other people I've witnessed play QB for the Giants are Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, Kent Graham, and Kerry Collins (and those couple of games with Kurt Warner).
Unfortunately, you're not alone in the "It's all Eli for me" camp.

Moke
10-15-2012, 10:46 AM
Take it easy Joey Bag of Donuts Stuggotz.

Toadofsteel
10-15-2012, 10:50 AM
Unfortunately, you're not alone in the "It's all Eli for me" camp.

I have nothing against Simms (hell, I knew his son Matt personally from back when I was in elementary school), but he was still "before my time"...

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 10:52 AM
I have nothing against Simms (hell, I knew his son Matt personally from back when I was in elementary school), but he was still "before my time"...
Its OK.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 11:00 AM
LT and Simms retired when I was 5 years old. I became a Giants fan in 1994. I thought Fassel didn't really care all that much about what was going on, and let guys like Tiki and Shockey get away with so much. So yes, in a way, it's all ELI for me, because the only other people I've witnessed play QB for the Giants are Dave Brown, Danny Kanell, Kent Graham, and Kerry Collins (and those couple of games with Kurt Warner).You couldn't have became a Giants fan in 1994. They sucked why would you become a fan then? I could see if you said '97 and if you became a fan then you wouldn't have dared said what you said about Strahan. Admit it, you became a fan in '04... you just added ten years. Maybe you became a fan in '07... yeah I know.

Toadofsteel
10-15-2012, 11:02 AM
You couldn't have became a Giants fan in 1994. They sucked why would you become a fan then? I could see if you said '97 and if you became a fan then you wouldn't have dared said what you said about Strahan. Admit it, you became a fan in '04... you just added ten years. Maybe you became a fan in '07... yeah I know.

My dad is a giants fan... he's trained me well from the womb. I didn't really know what was going on at the tender age of 6, I just knew that the Giants were the good guys and the Cowboys were the bad guys. If you want to say that 04 is when my fandom truly took off, then sure, I'll give you that.

TrueBlue10
10-15-2012, 11:24 AM
I love this thread! (except for all the silly "true Giants" bit... c'mon fellas. I'm pretty sure you all agree, you're just wasting time on the terminology) Anyway, we had to endure about 4 years of "Giants got robbed blind!" and "Ernie has doomed us all!" So I think it's good to be able to take stock now and then and see just how those opinions have panned out.

Also, let's not forget that the complete novel on both Eli and Phillip has not been written yet. Phillip may very well win a SB or two before all is said and done (I don't think he will, but, anything's possible...). And Eli may also win at least one more.... he may also never return to the play-offs. We just don't know.

But, in my opinion, Eli Manning is quickly making a case for ONE OF the best Giants of all time and perhaps even a trip to the FB Hall of Fame. Not too shabby for "Peyton's kid brother" =P

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 11:29 AM
I love this thread! (except for all the silly "true Giants" bit... c'mon fellas. I'm pretty sure you all agree, you're just wasting time on the terminology) Anyway, we had to endure about 4 years of "Giants got robbed blind!" and "Ernie has doomed us all!" So I think it's good to be able to take stock now and then and see just how those opinions have panned out.

Also, let's not forget that the complete novel on both Eli and Phillip has not been written yet. Phillip may very well win a SB or two before all is said and done (I don't think he will, but, anything's possible...). And Eli may also win at least one more.... he may also never return to the play-offs. We just don't know.

But, in my opinion, Eli Manning is quickly making a case for ONE OF the best Giants of all time and perhaps even a trip to the FB Hall of Fame. Not too shabby for "Peyton's kid brother" =PEverybody has an opinion and just like how you tried to downplay my conversation, I don't really care for yours. Now we're even. Talking about Rivers is a bigger waste of time.

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 12:34 PM
Although I understand that Rivers and Eli will be linked in some way forever, it still seems silly to bring up that trade and try to stick it in people's faces 8 years later.
Its just a waste of energy. Rivers plays in SD and Eli plays in NY. This has been true now for a very long time. Its time to let it go. Not a single Giants fan would revisit that trade, knowing what we know now. To suggest otherwise seems silly to me.
And I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but this pitting Giants fans against each other drives me friggin nuts. We all hang on every play.

BParcells777
10-15-2012, 12:41 PM
I would love to have Rivers back as Eli's back up.........get rid of Nervous Nellie Carr

gumby74
10-15-2012, 12:41 PM
The trade worked out for both. San Diego got out of the dumps and we became two time SB champions.


Yeah ... thank god the Chargers ridded themselves of Drew Brees and got the overwhelming influence of Sean Merrimen and Nate Kaeding.

Wait .... wut?

It is what it is. BOTH teams benefited.

BeatYale
10-15-2012, 01:14 PM
Charger fans see it this way. Rivers has had a more productive career, therefor, Rivers would have won multiple Super Bowls in NY. They discredit Eli by saying we have a better team around him. Most of the haters stem from the fact that Eli has turned the ball over a lot over the years, so when he has a multiple turnover game it doesn't surprise anyone. Rivers has been more efficient in that regard, but he's also had Norv Turner his whole career whom runs a QB-friendly system and was considered an offensive genius. I don't really think it's as simple as people make it sound, you can't just swap players and think the outcome would have been the same in NY.

Manning
10-15-2012, 01:16 PM
Harooni does.

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 01:18 PM
Charger fans see it this way. Rivers has had a more productive career, therefor, Rivers would have won multiple Super Bowls in NY. They discredit Eli by saying we have a better team around him. Most of the haters stem from the fact that Eli has turned the ball over a lot over the years, so when he has a multiple turnover game it doesn't surprise anyone. Rivers has been more efficient in that regard, but he's also had Norv Turner his whole career whom runs a QB-friendly system and was considered an offensive genius. I don't really think it's as simple as people make it sound, you can't just swap players and think the outcome would have been the same in NY.
Norv Turner may be the reason Rivers doesn't yet have a SB. They were the best team in 06 and Turner's foolish coaching against the Pats gave them the game.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 01:19 PM
Charger fans see it this way. Rivers has had a more productive career, therefor, Rivers would have won multiple Super Bowls in NY. They discredit Eli by saying we have a better team around him. Most of the haters stem from the fact that Eli has turned the ball over a lot over the years, so when he has a multiple turnover game it doesn't surprise anyone. Rivers has been more efficient in that regard, but he's also had Norv Turner his whole career whom runs a QB-friendly system and was considered an offensive genius. I don't really think it's as simple as people make it sound, you can't just swap players and think the outcome would have been the same in NY.Norv was the offensive coordinator because I could've sworn they had Schottenheimer(pardon my spelling if spelled incorrectly)?

Mohann
10-15-2012, 01:20 PM
Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine.

Agreed, he had to coddle the existing egos. If they'd worked with him in the offseason, instead of being selfish pricks, he'd have been on the same page as them. But they were lazy and didn't like to practice, terrible leadership, that's why getting rid of them helped the team. After the game Ben leads his men to the bar, Eli to the film room. Who's the better leader?

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 01:24 PM
Norv was the offensive coordinator because I could've sworn they had Schottenheimer(pardon my spelling if spelled incorrectly)?
It was Marty. I was wrong. It was Cam Cameron that made the dreadful decision to limit LT's carries in the 2nd half after the Pats had no ability to stop him.
I confused Cameron with Turner.
That said, Turner is a horrible HC. Really good coordinator, lousy HC. Kind of like Wade Phillips.

Mohann
10-15-2012, 01:26 PM
It was Marty. I was wrong. It was Cam Cameron that made the dreadful decision to limit LT's carries in the 2nd half after the Pats had no ability to stop him.
I confused Cameron with Turner.
That said, Turner is a horrible HC. Really good coordinator, lousy HC. Kind of like Wade Phillips.

He's a terrible head coach, but a good offensive coordinator, and his system is QB friendly, as is their weather.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 01:34 PM
Agreed, he had to coddle the existing egos. If they'd worked with him in the offseason, instead of being selfish pricks, he'd have been on the same page as them. But they were lazy and didn't like to practice, terrible leadership, that's why getting rid of them helped the team. After the game Ben leads his men to the bar, Eli to the film room. Who's the better leader?So Strahan didn't become a true Giant until 07. Lol Ok

Mohann
10-15-2012, 01:42 PM
So Strahan didn't become a true Giant until 07. Lol Ok

I never mentioned Strahan, and would never say that so don't put stupid words in my mouth, but by his own admission he helped the younger players more in 07.

Mohann
10-15-2012, 01:45 PM
The egos i meant were on offense, Tiki, Burris, and Shockey. Who needs a 260lb screaming blond jackass in the huddle when you're learning an offense and trying to get 11 men in step.

sc_markt
10-15-2012, 01:46 PM
I sure don't. Watching game rewind and I FREAKIN' LOVE ELI MANNING!!!!

Who's Phillip Rivers?...

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 01:48 PM
I never mentioned Strahan, and would never say that so don't put stupid words in my mouth, but by his own admission he helped the younger players more in 07.You agreed with his stupid comment. Why don't you two just say Barber and Shockey. There were a lot of vets on this team that bought in... they probably didn't like Coughlin's ways but they continued to play for the Giants unless they were cut like Shockey or retired like Barber.

BurnerNYG
10-15-2012, 01:50 PM
The egos i meant were on offense, Tiki, Burris, and Shockey. Who needs a 260lb screaming blond jackass in the huddle when you're learning an offense and trying to get 11 men in step.They won a Superbowl with Burress. He shot himself the following year. Imo he helped in the development of Eli.

Mohann
10-15-2012, 01:53 PM
You agreed with his stupid comment. Why don't you two just say Barber and Shockey. There were a lot of vets on this team that bought in... they probably didn't like Coughlin's ways but they continued to play for the Giants unless they were cut like Shockey or retired like Barber.

I did in a later post, I agreed with the statement that the existing egos, didn't really pay attention to Strahan being in the post I quoted.

Mohann
10-15-2012, 01:57 PM
They won a Superbowl with Burress. He shot himself the following year. Imo he helped in the development of Eli.

Yes, they won with him. Even though he rarely practiced and still ran the route he wanted. He's was a lazy player that got by on talent. In the end he's a very poor example of how to conduct yourself as a pro athlete. In a system where a pass sometimes has to be thrown before the WR breaks, it really helps the QB if the damn receiver cares what he's supposed to.

Sarcasman
10-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Honestly, it's not their choice or job to manipulate the draft and I'm glad they stopped showing Archie in the stands all the time.

Yeah, let's leave that to the professionals, like Jay Berwanger, Bo Jackson and John Elway.

Toadofsteel
10-15-2012, 02:09 PM
Do you not remember Strahan's contract fiasco in 2002? When Tiki freaking Barber calls you selfish, that's saying something.

I never said he was anything less than an amazing player, just that he had a bit of an ego earlier on, and it took several years (and a couple Tiki-like threats to retire) before finally buying into TC's way of doing things... I never knocked on him for his amazing production. It was more a knock on Fassel for being so loose and letting all these egos manifest...

Likewise, Shockey and Tiki were both great football players, but they would never function well in the kind of offense we have now.

Flip Empty
10-15-2012, 02:56 PM
It was Marty. I was wrong. It was Cam Cameron that made the dreadful decision to limit LT's carries in the 2nd half after the Pats had no ability to stop him.
I confused Cameron with Turner.
That said, Turner is a horrible HC. Really good coordinator, lousy HC. Kind of like Wade Phillips.

AJ Smith is the one hiring these numpties, he also let Drew Brees and Michael Turner walk. Horrible GM.

giantsforce
10-15-2012, 03:09 PM
I sure don't. Watching game rewind and I FREAKIN' LOVE ELI MANNING!!!!I wouldn't mind if he was Eli's back up instead of Carr.

Flip Empty
10-15-2012, 03:14 PM
I wouldn't mind if he was Eli's back up instead of Carr.

Rivers is still a good quarterback. His team however... no.

PennState1
10-15-2012, 03:15 PM
Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine.1000% correct! Plus Eli has minimized mistakes and there is no substitute for experience...just ask Cam.

TomCat_FIN
10-15-2012, 03:23 PM
Well I remember how Eli threw something like 60 yards against the Falcons to an almost negative QB rating in his rookie year. Boy did he look lost in that game, or against the Ravens.

But right now I wouldn't trade him for anybody in the world. Not even Mariano Rivera.

GIANTSED101
10-15-2012, 03:54 PM
Does anyone really care anymore, Philips is a good QB and Eli is a great QB. Different situations, different places, different results. Everyone knows Sand Diego and it's problems, we had headaches too once upon a time. This team is clearly Eli's and has been since Burress's departure. Even though we won the SB w/ Burress he was still a bug in Eli's ear. You never hear about Nicks, Cruz, or any of the other receivers being "ME" monsters like Burress was. Eli's became great because he's now the teacher and no longer the pupil. He's been in the same offense for years with the same head coach who will fight side by side with and for Eli.

Eli hasn't always been great but right now he is and that's all that matters.

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 03:56 PM
Yes, they won with him. Even though he rarely practiced and still ran the route he wanted. He's was a lazy player that got by on talent. In the end he's a very poor example of how to conduct yourself as a pro athlete. In a system where a pass sometimes has to be thrown before the WR breaks, it really helps the QB if the damn receiver cares what he's supposed to.
You obviously never read Ernie Accorsi's book.
Because if you had, you would know that your statement about Plaxico is pure nonsense.

Diamondring
10-15-2012, 04:00 PM
I think that a lot of people who were on Eli did not undestand the type of offense he had earlier. When he started, he had Toomer, Ike Iillard and always hurt Shockey. As time pass, Eli had Burress and both he and Shockey did not practice in volentary workout camp. Remember? That can effect things in a negative way. It slowed Eli's progress. I also think that Eli respected his elders as well and felt unconfortable in telling them what to do like be a hard leader..

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 04:19 PM
I think that a lot of people who were on Eli did not undestand the type of offense he had earlier. When he started, he had Toomer, Ike Iillard and always hurt Shockey. As time pass, Eli had Burress and both he and Shockey did not practice in volentary workout camp. Remember? That can effect things in a negative way. It slowed Eli's progress. I also think that Eli respected his elders as well and felt unconfortable in telling them what to do like be a hard leader..
Look people....Eli's play had nothing to do with "strong personalities" early in his career. To suggest that is to suggest that Eli is some kind of emotional weakling. Which is nonsense. Shockey throwing his hands in the air didn't restrict Eli development. Nor did Tiki's retirement or Plaxico's shooting himself. They were actually all great players who helped in his productivity.

The reality is that he struggled like a rookie in his first year and then followed the next several years with some good, some very good and even some great play. Oh Yeah...and some bad play as well. (See games like Minn. and Buffalo 2007) He was inconsistent but showed a knack for clutch performances when it counted the most.
He bottomed out however in 2010 with poor play (by his standards). Last year he took huge steps to becoming a truly great QB and has continued that this season. Far superior pocket presence, movement and decision making. I happen to believe that TC put the fear of God into him after the 2010 season. You may remember his public comments in Feb. 2011 regarding Eli's need to take more sacks and throw the ball away more. (Which he did in 2011)

To say that Eli is what he's always been is to say that he's hasn't grown, that he doesn't have weaknesses and that he hasn't substantially improved (unevenly like all great players) over the course of his career. the greatest jump being from 2010 to 2011.

Its just silly to say that "he is what he's always been" I can't tell you how naive and ridiculous that is.

Mohann
10-15-2012, 04:33 PM
Look people....Eli's play had nothing to do with "strong personalities" early in his career. To suggest that is to suggest that Eli is some kind of emotional weakling. Which is nonsense. Shockey throwing his hands in the air didn't restrict Eli development. Nor did Tiki's retirement or Plaxico's shooting himself. They were actually all great players who helped in his productivity.

The reality is that he struggled like a rookie in his first year and then followed the next several years with some good, some very good and even some great play. Oh Yeah...and some bad play as well. (See games like Minn. and Buffalo 2007) He was inconsistent but showed a knack for clutch performances when it counted the most.
He bottomed out however in 2010 with poor play (by his standards). Last year he took huge steps to becoming a truly great QB and has continued that this season. Far superior pocket presence, movement and decision making. I happen to believe that TC put the fear of God into him after the 2010 season. You may remember his public comments in Feb. 2011 regarding Eli's need to take more sacks and throw the ball away more. (Which he did in 2011)

To say that Eli is what he's always been is to say that he's hasn't grown, that he doesn't have weaknesses and that he hasn't substantially improved (unevenly like all great players) over the course of his career. the greatest jump being from 2010 to 2011.

Its just silly to say that "he is what he's always been" I can't tell you how naive and ridiculous that is.

It's not about strong personalities hampering Eli, he's always been Eli. They were great individual players that didn't play well as a team. Where as Eli is the consummate team player, and teams win championships. Losing selfish players is addition by subtraction.

chasjay
10-15-2012, 04:43 PM
Look people....Eli's play had nothing to do with "strong personalities" early in his career. To suggest that is to suggest that Eli is some kind of emotional weakling. Which is nonsense. Shockey throwing his hands in the air didn't restrict Eli development. Nor did Tiki's retirement or Plaxico's shooting himself. They were actually all great players who helped in his productivity.

The reality is that he struggled like a rookie in his first year and then followed the next several years with some good, some very good and even some great play. Oh Yeah...and some bad play as well. (See games like Minn. and Buffalo 2007) He was inconsistent but showed a knack for clutch performances when it counted the most.
He bottomed out however in 2010 with poor play (by his standards). Last year he took huge steps to becoming a truly great QB and has continued that this season. Far superior pocket presence, movement and decision making. I happen to believe that TC put the fear of God into him after the 2010 season. You may remember his public comments in Feb. 2011 regarding Eli's need to take more sacks and throw the ball away more. (Which he did in 2011)

To say that Eli is what he's always been is to say that he's hasn't grown, that he doesn't have weaknesses and that he hasn't substantially improved (unevenly like all great players) over the course of his career. the greatest jump being from 2010 to 2011.

Its just silly to say that "he is what he's always been" I can't tell you how naive and ridiculous that is.

I don't want to get into the naive and ridiculous comments. But I tend to agree with the general statements of MS. Eli progressed in college through focus, experience and coaching, and he's continued to progress in the NFL through those same measures. All players do - the difference is where they top out at - be it awful, mediocre, good or great. I also agree that Eli's development as an individual player was not held back by Shockey and Plax not working with him in the off-season. From a team standpoint, I think his timing and rhythm with those receivers may have suffered - but not in the sense that it took longer for Eli to develop as a QB.

Sarcasman
10-15-2012, 04:58 PM
AJ Smith is the one hiring these numpties, he also let Drew Brees and Michael Turner walk. Horrible GM.

Are you sure? Just ask him, I'm sure he still insists he's a great GM.

Sarcasman
10-15-2012, 05:01 PM
Look people....Eli's play had nothing to do with "strong personalities" early in his career. To suggest that is to suggest that Eli is some kind of emotional weakling. Which is nonsense. Shockey throwing his hands in the air didn't restrict Eli development. Nor did Tiki's retirement or Plaxico's shooting himself. They were actually all great players who helped in his productivity.

The reality is that he struggled like a rookie in his first year and then followed the next several years with some good, some very good and even some great play. Oh Yeah...and some bad play as well. (See games like Minn. and Buffalo 2007) He was inconsistent but showed a knack for clutch performances when it counted the most.
He bottomed out however in 2010 with poor play (by his standards). Last year he took huge steps to becoming a truly great QB and has continued that this season. Far superior pocket presence, movement and decision making. I happen to believe that TC put the fear of God into him after the 2010 season. You may remember his public comments in Feb. 2011 regarding Eli's need to take more sacks and throw the ball away more. (Which he did in 2011)

To say that Eli is what he's always been is to say that he's hasn't grown, that he doesn't have weaknesses and that he hasn't substantially improved (unevenly like all great players) over the course of his career. the greatest jump being from 2010 to 2011.

Its just silly to say that "he is what he's always been" I can't tell you how naive and ridiculous that is.


When you say it like that you make it sound as if he had to come into the league and then develop or something.

Good thing I know better and it's really just because you hate him that you won't admit he was MVP material on Day 1.

Day 1!

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 05:27 PM
When you say it like that you make it sound as if he had to come into the league and then develop or something.

Good thing I know better and it's really just because you hate him that you won't admit he was MVP material on Day 1.

Day 1!
Did you see him play day 1? It wasn't pretty.

I think you are trying to be funny here, but I can't say for sure.

scoostraw
10-15-2012, 10:48 PM
Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine.
I agree 100%.

Sarcasman
10-15-2012, 10:54 PM
Did you see him play day 1? It wasn't pretty.

I think you are trying to be funny here, but I can't say for sure.


What that wasn't over the top enough? Geez, I hate explaining the jokes particularly to the more astute posters.

Of course I saw him Day 1. He wasn't good.

scoostraw
10-15-2012, 10:55 PM
Who's Phillip Rivers?...
He plays linebacker for us now doesn't he?

No wait........

GmenFan1980
10-15-2012, 11:00 PM
Philip Rivers everybody, Makes great plays(two TD's to Gates) and also has this happen to him.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/0ap1000000080923/Rivers-fumble-turns-into-Broncos-TD

Update- Rivers 3 Interceptions and 1 lost fumble Tonight

Update 2- Rivers 4th interception :S.

Update 3- Rivers second lost fumble

Conclusion- Chargers Offense turned the ball over too much and collapsed

Paul Newman
10-15-2012, 11:07 PM
Can't believe what Eli has developed into.
I know. He's gotten taller since the start of his career.

Carter.525
10-15-2012, 11:25 PM
Rivers looks great tonight.. 4 turnovers !!

Rudyy
10-15-2012, 11:26 PM
Rivers looks great tonight.. 4 turnovers !! Elite!

Morehead State
10-15-2012, 11:33 PM
What that wasn't over the top enough? Geez, I hate explaining the jokes particularly to the more astute posters.

Of course I saw him Day 1. He wasn't good.
Sorry... But no...it wasn't over the top enough. Have you heard some of the claims from the Eli Cultists? Now THOSE are over the top.

GameTime
10-15-2012, 11:34 PM
4 picks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jax5338
10-15-2012, 11:36 PM
geez 4 picks including a dagger pick 6.

maybe rivers really did need all that talent around him because he has gotten progressively worse.

joeybagadonutz23
10-15-2012, 11:39 PM
I love that he just got schooled by Eli's brother.

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:41 PM
hahahahahah i came on the net just now to laugh at how AWFUL phillip rivers it. ELI MANNING would never throw away a game like that. Just putrid quarterbakcing.


Hey, by the way, is this Brandon Stokley the same Brandon Stokley we brought in 2 years ago when our receiving core was hurting? And if so why didnt we keep him around? He looks like a smart, talented veteran.

Rudyy
10-15-2012, 11:43 PM
hahahahahah i came on the net just now to laugh at how AWFUL phillip rivers it. ELI MANNING would never throw away a game like that. Just putrid quarterbakcing.


Hey, by the way, is this Brandon Stokley the same Brandon Stokley we brought in 2 years ago when our receiving core was hurting? And if so why didnt we keep him around? He looks like a smart, talented veteran.I think he got injured.

GFiP
10-15-2012, 11:44 PM
Hilarious. I'm glad we kept the much better qb.

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:46 PM
I think he got injured.

Oh. Well I'm glad hes found a role in Denver. Just like his brother, Peyton makes everyone he plays with just that much better. I havent heard Dallas Clark or Reggie Wayne's name at all lately. Or Kevin Boss..or Shockey...or anyone the Manning brothers have turned into a star.

gxbhkt
10-15-2012, 11:48 PM
Rivers way to emotional for NY. Eli withstood the storm his first 3 years to become a legend . Remember all the Eli haters then

Rudyy
10-15-2012, 11:48 PM
Oh. Well I'm glad hes found a role in Denver. Just like his brother, Peyton makes everyone he plays with just that much better. I havent heard Dallas Clark or Reggie Wayne's name at all lately. Or Kevin Boss..or Shockey...or anyone the Manning brothers have turned into a star.Reggie Wayne has been pretty decent this year. The other guys..not so much. Yeah, it's pretty great.

joeybagadonutz23
10-15-2012, 11:49 PM
Reggie Wayne actually had a career game the week before this past Sunday.

13 catches for 212 with a TD in that upset over Green Bay.

You're right about the rest of those guys you listed.

TrueBlue10
10-15-2012, 11:51 PM
oh man, this thread is especially hilarious after Rivers' game tonight. Archie knew what he was doing when he told Eli to stay away from that organization. Thank goodness, FOR US, that he did!

giantsfan420
10-15-2012, 11:52 PM
Rivers way to emotional for NY. Eli withstood the storm his first 3 years to become a legend . Remember all the Eli haters then

they weren't "haters". dont you know, they were the ones who ended up right. they were the ones who called what has happened with eli...oh wait nm they claimed the opposite...

but rivers, how bout that throwing motion. i've never liked it. felt he is limited in throws he can make. that across the body throw on the out to royal at the end was so terrible...i remember last yr i thought that rivers throwing motion could have caused a loss in strength over time and that he was overcompensating to get the same power on his throws which led to inaccuracy...that first half wasnt like rivers was all pro. he was 11-19 iirc and gifted two possessions in the redzone by ST fumbles and only got 10 outta it. then with the SD pick 6, rivers put up 17 pts all game with 2 possessions starting at like the denver 10...he's just not good anymore imho and not 1/5th of eli...eli is getting better non stop, rivers has been getting worse

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:53 PM
Wayne had a total of just over 900 yards last season. For a #1 wideout who used to put up 1400 1500 yards a season thats not so great. so far hes on pace to have a decent season he already has 500+.

Ok this is killing my point...but you get my point!!

giantsfan420
10-15-2012, 11:54 PM
and did anyone catch gruden tralk bout eli something like "same thing with eli, i dunno who these reuben randles or bardens are, and these manning brothers just keep on moving n playing top flight ball"

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:54 PM
Reggie Wayne actually had a career game the week before this past Sunday.

13 catches for 212 with a TD in that upset over Green Bay.

You're right about the rest of those guys you listed.

And its sad to say, but when or if Cruz or Nicks walks...I guarantee they wont be the caliber player they are here. And if you think I'm wrong just look at Eli's track record.

joeybagadonutz23
10-15-2012, 11:56 PM
Wayne had a total of just over 900 yards last season. For a #1 wideout who used to put up 1400 1500 yards a season thats not so great. so far hes on pace to have a decent season he already has 500+.

Ok this is killing my point...but you get my point!!

I get what you are saying, but I don't even remember their QB's name from last year. All I recall is that he sucked. LOL. Luck is a talented guy though, and Wayne should go back to being a premier WR again.

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:56 PM
and did anyone catch gruden tralk bout eli something like "same thing with eli, i dunno who these reuben randles or bardens are, and these manning brothers just keep on moving n playing top flight ball"

Yes hahah that was great. He starting bragging to much about the Manning brothers and then apologized saying he was sorry he was on a soapbox there. Hey, I dont mind...Eli deserves all the credit he gets and more

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:56 PM
I get what you are saying, but I don't even remember their QB's name from last year. All I recall is that he sucked. LOL. Luck is a talented guy though, and Wayne should go back to being a premier WR again.

I agree. (weak spot in my example perhaps)

Toadofsteel
10-15-2012, 11:57 PM
I get what you are saying, but I don't even remember their QB's name from last year. All I recall is that he sucked. LOL.
Remember this guy?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HN3tigaU1Bk/SZQhQSwEJqI/AAAAAAAAFR8/gzVBnMmT1DM/s200/kerry_collins.JPG

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:57 PM
"Back live from SanDiego and Phillip Rivers IMPLOSION" direct quote from MNF. HAHAHAHAHA

CowboysSuck
10-15-2012, 11:58 PM
Remember this guy?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HN3tigaU1Bk/SZQhQSwEJqI/AAAAAAAAFR8/gzVBnMmT1DM/s200/kerry_collins.JPG

Kerry Collins was not..was he? no way


edit: yes he was. Until week 6 when he was IR'd and subsequently released due to a concussion (permanent hangover?) Lol

Toadofsteel
10-15-2012, 11:59 PM
Kerry Collins was not..was he? no way

At least through october 2011 until he got IR'ed

CowboysSuck
10-16-2012, 12:00 AM
Idc what anyone says, I love me some Kerry Collins.

joeybagadonutz23
10-16-2012, 12:02 AM
Remember this guy?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HN3tigaU1Bk/SZQhQSwEJqI/AAAAAAAAFR8/gzVBnMmT1DM/s200/kerry_collins.JPG
Was he seriously their QB? LOL. I guess that's howe much I don't care about the NFL outside of the Giants. Hahaha

Toadofsteel
10-16-2012, 12:02 AM
It's a small NFL after all...

joeybagadonutz23
10-16-2012, 12:03 AM
He's right, Kerry Collins played 3 games. Erickson 8 games and Orlavsky 5 games.

GMan-67
10-16-2012, 01:02 AM
wow was that not a depiction of River's career? ... on top when it doesnt matter ... behind due to his turnovers when it does matter

and then simply not caring in his press conference

Out of Exile
10-16-2012, 01:07 AM
Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine.

You stole that meme quote from that Yahoo article....

Diamondring
10-16-2012, 01:37 AM
Rivers never signed a contract with the Giants so how could you get him back?

Flip Empty
10-16-2012, 02:23 AM
Oh. Well I'm glad hes found a role in Denver. Just like his brother, Peyton makes everyone he plays with just that much better. I havent heard Dallas Clark or Reggie Wayne's name at all lately. Or Kevin Boss..or Shockey...or anyone the Manning brothers have turned into a star.
Stokley was a go-to option of Peyton's for years in Indy. He's also a friend of his. That's why he's in Denver.

Poor guy probably won't live long. He's in double digits in concussions sustained

giantsfan420
10-16-2012, 02:30 AM
gruden made a poignant statement; a victory does wonders for the psyche when a team wins like the broncos did, and likewise, a loss can destroy your psyche...i wonder if SD just implodes now? they were one extremely thin ice as it was, but this is 2 weeks in a row. ppl forget that SD had a handy lead over NO befre Rivers **** the bed that time too

davepc
10-16-2012, 03:16 AM
People wanted him in the 1st place?

Roosevelt
10-16-2012, 11:46 AM
they weren't "haters". dont you know, they were the ones who ended up right. they were the ones who called what has happened with eli...oh wait nm they claimed the opposite...

How would assess David Wilson's season? Did you feel the same about him after game 2 as you do now? So why should it be different for Eli? Every player has to prove them-self on the field.

How about Coughlin. Remember how many times people were calling for his job? Now look at him. Has he been the same coach all along? Of course not.

An injury can end a player's career in an instant. It's simply asinine to claim you're psychic and could predict Eli's career.

Fact is Eli had an up and down career until 2011. Since then he has proved himself to be among the best in the game.

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 11:50 AM
How would assess David Wilson's season? Did you feel the same about him after game 2 as you do now? So why should it be different for Eli? Every player has to prove them-self on the field.

How about Coughlin. Remember how many times people were calling for his job? Now look at him. Has he been the same coach all along? Of course not.

An injury can end a player's career in an instant. It's simply asinine to claim you're psychic and could predict Eli's career.

Fact is Eli had an up and down career until 2011. Since then he has proved himself to be among the best in the game.

No Rosie...They knew!....They just knew!!!!!!!!

GameTime
10-16-2012, 11:53 AM
How would assess David Wilson's season? Did you feel the same about him after game 2 as you do now? So why should it be different for Eli? Every player has to prove them-self on the field.

How about Coughlin. Remember how many times people were calling for his job? Now look at him. Has he been the same coach all along? Of course not.

An injury can end a player's career in an instant. It's simply asinine to claim you're psychic and could predict Eli's career.

Fact is Eli had an up and down career until 2011. Since then he has proved himself to be among the best in the game.
predicting he would pan out to be great was just as foolish as predicting he would pan out to be just average and never take the team anywhere.
Works both ways....

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 12:01 PM
predicting he would pan out to be great was just as foolish as predicting he would pan out to be just average and never take the team anywhere.
Works both ways....
I'm not sure its foolish. I just think its irrelevant. We all desperately want our new QB to be a great player.

Toadofsteel
10-16-2012, 12:02 PM
You stole that meme quote from that Yahoo article....

More like I started the image macro after seeing the article. Go dig up the thread, a bunch of us were making a meme out of it...

GameTime
10-16-2012, 12:06 PM
I'm not sure its foolish. I just think its irrelevant. We all desperately want our new QB to be a great player.

ok...futile to predict. Of course we all want him to be great but there were many "predicting" he would suck. So that is just as irrelevant then predciting a great career for Eli....
thats all I am saying. Cant just dog the fans who though/knew he would be great.

Roosevelt
10-16-2012, 12:27 PM
ok...futile to predict. Of course we all want him to be great but there were many "predicting" he would suck. So that is just as irrelevant then predciting a great career for Eli....
thats all I am saying. Cant just dog the fans who though/knew he would be great.

Is it okay to dog the fans who predicted he would suck when he was playing like crap? Definitive statements aside, it's only natural to think a player will suck if he plays like crap for an extended period.

Roosevelt
10-16-2012, 12:31 PM
I'm not sure its foolish. I just think its irrelevant. We all desperately want our new QB to be a great player.

That's not good enough. You must put Eli before all things blue in order to be amongst those that knoweth all.

GameTime
10-16-2012, 12:52 PM
Is it okay to dog the fans who predicted he would suck when he was playing like crap? Definitive statements aside, it's only natural to think a player will suck if he plays like crap for an extended period.
the way he played the first 4 or 5 years you could make the argument either way. He played some terrible football but also showed he could play great football as well.

BeatYale
10-16-2012, 12:54 PM
From the Charger's board:


last nights game PR looked like a QB on the decline with his best days behind him. Elite QBs do not have games like PR did last night. what we witnessed was a stark contrast between a true elite qb (Peyton Manning) and a fr***led 2nd or 3rd tier qb (rivers). at this point in time I dont think PR is capable of being an elite QB. he has a weak arm, is not mobile, and gets skiddish when pressured. However, the "salt in the wound" for me is that AJ traded(in hindsight gave away) Eli Manning for PR.... we got a QB that is falling apart at the seams and the giants got an elite future HOF QB; who has already won 2 superbowls/2 superbowl MVPs. Eli's career hasnt even peaked yet and PR is on the decline. I think the Eli manning trade will go down as one of the biggest trade blunders in sports history.


The Chargers have had 2 bad breaks regarding the Mannings:

1) They ended up drafting Leaf because Peyton was drafted just before their pick.

2) They should have kept Eli and not traded him for Rivers


This. AJ could have stuck to his guns or negotiated with Eli and developed a well thought out plan for the team that could sell Eli on playing here. Instead we got a declining QB, a choker kicker and :LightsOut: who flamed out after the roids. Now were gonna go into Baltimore Colts trading Elway and Falcons trading Favre territory.


Big chargers fan. But we have a quarterback that can't throw the ball over the defenders head. He throws it short. He does have receivers to throw it too. Meachem is capable if you can throw it too him as well as Floyd. The got away from what worked in the first half last night and fell apart. The Saints game the Chargers got killed by the Ref and their crappy offensive pass interference calls on floyd and gates. But last night you have a quarterback that can't put the ball where he needs to for his receivers to get it. Need a new quarterback and a new coach. He is conservative at times and predictable with what plays are called.

Sadly for them, Rivers decline started after he signed his big contract extension in 09. It's a rough marriage.

http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=95615&page=7

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 01:11 PM
ok...futile to predict. Of course we all want him to be great but there were many "predicting" he would suck. So that is just as irrelevant then predciting a great career for Eli....
thats all I am saying. Cant just dog the fans who though/knew he would be great.
Well if someone came out and said that the Pats 7th round draft pick in 2000 was going to be a HOF QB, then I would be impressed. But saying that the first player taken in the draft, who plays for us so we have a natural rooting factor, was going to be a great QB isn't much of an accomplishment.
I would say that the reason we traded our early first round pick, another first round pick and a 4th would suggest that he had better be as good as these folks were predictiing.
But I will also say this...To say that he was a great QB when he was playing so inconsistently earlier in his career was absolutely silly. When he threw all those pick sixes vs. Minny, when he played so poorly in his first 2 playoff games etc.... and then to say that he was great at the time? No sir.

We must call it as we see it. He was most certainly NOT great until his 2011 season. And then he was truly great. As he has been this season so far as well. He had great moments earlier in his career, but was certainly not a great QB.

byron
10-16-2012, 01:24 PM
Well if someone came out and said that the Pats 7th round draft pick in 2000 was going to be a HOF QB, then I would be impressed. But saying that the first player taken in the draft, who plays for us so we have a natural rooting factor, was going to be a great QB isn't much of an accomplishment.
I would say that the reason we traded our early first round pick, another first round pick and a 4th would suggest that he had better be as good as these folks were predictiing.
But I will also say this...To say that he was a great QB when he was playing so inconsistently earlier in his career was absolutely silly. When he threw all those pick sixes vs. Minny, when he played so poorly in his first 2 playoff games etc.... and then to say that he was great at the time? No sir.

We must call it as we see it. He was most certainly NOT great until his 2011 season. And then he was truly great. As he has been this season so far as well. He had great moments earlier in his career, but was certainly not a great QB. but certainly in the making

GameTime
10-16-2012, 01:27 PM
Well if someone came out and said that the Pats 7th round draft pick in 2000 was going to be a HOF QB, then I would be impressed. But saying that the first player taken in the draft, who plays for us so we have a natural rooting factor, was going to be a great QB isn't much of an accomplishment.
I would say that the reason we traded our early first round pick, another first round pick and a 4th would suggest that he had better be as good as these folks were predictiing.
But I will also say this...To say that he was a great QB when he was playing so inconsistently earlier in his career was absolutely silly. When he threw all those pick sixes vs. Minny, when he played so poorly in his first 2 playoff games etc.... and then to say that he was great at the time? No sir.

We must call it as we see it. He was most certainly NOT great until his 2011 season. And then he was truly great. As he has been this season so far as well. He had great moments earlier in his career, but was certainly not a great QB.
never said he was great back then. But he had "great moments" and and moments. Just saying you could have gone either way for a "prediction". I am not crediting anyone with being right or wrong I am just stating my veiw on the whole prediction thing.

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 01:30 PM
never said he was great back then. But he had "great moments" and and moments. Just saying you could have gone either way for a "prediction". I am not crediting anyone with being right or wrong I am just stating my veiw on the whole prediction thing.
I am essentially agreeing with you.

EliDaMANning
10-16-2012, 01:31 PM
I get disgusted everytime I see Rivers barking at officials. He's always on their case and I don't see any other QB that does it to this extent. He needs to take his passion he has on the refs and use it in the game.

giantsfan420
10-16-2012, 01:42 PM
How would assess David Wilson's season? Did you feel the same about him after game 2 as you do now? So why should it be different for Eli? Every player has to prove them-self on the field.

How about Coughlin. Remember how many times people were calling for his job? Now look at him. Has he been the same coach all along? Of course not.

An injury can end a player's career in an instant. It's simply asinine to claim you're psychic and could predict Eli's career.

Fact is Eli had an up and down career until 2011. Since then he has proved himself to be among the best in the game.
i absolutely believe wilson will be great. him fumbling didnt change that. and no one was stupid enough to say eli was this great top 5 qb before 2007ish area, we, or I at least, only would comment on the fact that its stupid to want to get rid of a guy who has flashed greatness and will one day soon be one of the best qbs in the league.
u think it was up n down til 2011, i beg to differ, 2007 sb playoff run is when it all started to come together. after that, he had ONE anomaly int season, everything else has been steadily improving from a great starting point.

and u can make that statement bc u dont remember how it was around here i guess? i dunno. i dunno how u personally felt about the qb, all i know, is that i was certainly in a very small minority. a lot of people wouldnt even concede he COULD be great. i cant tell u how many times i've posted why I believe Eli would be what he is today to posters like harooni and gumby. too much time has elapsed, and i doubt harooni remembers, but at one point in celebration, even harooni had made a lil comment to me about calling what happened and him being wrong. im not trying to paint harooni in a negative light, its just that bc of where eli is at now, ppl forget what it was like back then.
i mean my god man, theres people actually making posts about how the people who called what we see today back pre 2007, its bc "we were delusional" and "u guys werent wrong, he wasnt great back then" when no one would make the claim he was elite and better than x,y,z. i at least, would just formulate all the reasons why i believed he could be what he is now, and a big part of that were some of his performances pre sb run 07.

i hate this topic i shouldnt have even chimed in. i guess id say that im sorry if i come across as trying to put u or anyone down personally. i'd just say, try and really remember how it was back pre 2007 sb run, go check out a link where SD MB is linked and see the posts there MB is making about Rivers. Theres like 2 or 3 ppl still standing up for him while the rest were very similar here with eli...and id also say that bc people were able to see what today was gnna be like way back when, it doesnt mean they were delusional at all, lol...

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 02:18 PM
i absolutely believe wilson will be great. him fumbling didnt change that. and no one was stupid enough to say eli was this great top 5 qb before 2007ish area, we, or I at least, only would comment on the fact that its stupid to want to get rid of a guy who has flashed greatness and will one day soon be one of the best qbs in the league.
u think it was up n down til 2011, i beg to differ, 2007 sb playoff run is when it all started to come together. after that, he had ONE anomaly int season, everything else has been steadily improving from a great starting point.

and u can make that statement bc u dont remember how it was around here i guess? i dunno. i dunno how u personally felt about the qb, all i know, is that i was certainly in a very small minority. a lot of people wouldnt even concede he COULD be great. i cant tell u how many times i've posted why I believe Eli would be what he is today to posters like harooni and gumby. too much time has elapsed, and i doubt harooni remembers, but at one point in celebration, even harooni had made a lil comment to me about calling what happened and him being wrong. im not trying to paint harooni in a negative light, its just that bc of where eli is at now, ppl forget what it was like back then.
i mean my god man, theres people actually making posts about how the people who called what we see today back pre 2007, its bc "we were delusional" and "u guys werent wrong, he wasnt great back then" when no one would make the claim he was elite and better than x,y,z. i at least, would just formulate all the reasons why i believed he could be what he is now, and a big part of that were some of his performances pre sb run 07.

i hate this topic i shouldnt have even chimed in. i guess id say that im sorry if i come across as trying to put u or anyone down personally. i'd just say, try and really remember how it was back pre 2007 sb run, go check out a link where SD MB is linked and see the posts there MB is making about Rivers. Theres like 2 or 3 ppl still standing up for him while the rest were very similar here with eli...and id also say that bc people were able to see what today was gnna be like way back when, it doesnt mean they were delusional at all, lol...

Plenty of posters claimed that he was elite back then. Even yesterday we had a bunch of posters who claim that Eli today is the same as he was several years ago. That he just needed to shed the "selfish strong personalities" to be more productive.

Don't kid yourself, there is a minority of posters here who are truly "Eli cultists".

And the reality is that this discussion will continue as long as Eli is a Giant. And its only brought up by those "chosen few". Its never brought up my those who have dared to criticize Eli when he played poorly. People like me are as happy as we can be that we have an outstanding QB now. We have no agenda. Only the Cultists have to bring it back up, try to pit Giants fans against each other by sticking their figurative fingers in everybody else's face.

And I will point it out whenever it happens.

gumby74
10-16-2012, 02:24 PM
i absolutely believe wilson will be great. him fumbling didnt change that. and no one was stupid enough to say eli was this great top 5 qb before 2007ish area, we, or I at least, only would comment on the fact that its stupid to want to get rid of a guy who has flashed greatness and will one day soon be one of the best qbs in the league.
u think it was up n down til 2011, i beg to differ, 2007 sb playoff run is when it all started to come together. after that, he had ONE anomaly int season, everything else has been steadily improving from a great starting point.

and u can make that statement bc u dont remember how it was around here i guess? i dunno. i dunno how u personally felt about the qb, all i know, is that i was certainly in a very small minority. a lot of people wouldnt even concede he COULD be great. i cant tell u how many times i've posted why I believe Eli would be what he is today to posters like harooni and gumby. too much time has elapsed, and i doubt harooni remembers, but at one point in celebration, even harooni had made a lil comment to me about calling what happened and him being wrong. im not trying to paint harooni in a negative light, its just that bc of where eli is at now, ppl forget what it was like back then.
i mean my god man, theres people actually making posts about how the people who called what we see today back pre 2007, its bc "we were delusional" and "u guys werent wrong, he wasnt great back then" when no one would make the claim he was elite and better than x,y,z. i at least, would just formulate all the reasons why i believed he could be what he is now, and a big part of that were some of his performances pre sb run 07.

i hate this topic i shouldnt have even chimed in. i guess id say that im sorry if i come across as trying to put u or anyone down personally. i'd just say, try and really remember how it was back pre 2007 sb run, go check out a link where SD MB is linked and see the posts there MB is making about Rivers. Theres like 2 or 3 ppl still standing up for him while the rest were very similar here with eli...and id also say that bc people were able to see what today was gnna be like way back when, it doesnt mean they were delusional at all, lol...

Uhm. If you had said, Eli could be great, I'd be the first one to agree with you. I've said over and over again that imo, he has more raw passing talent then Rivers, Ben, and almost anyone in the league No, you said Eli is <adjective>. And that's the problem.

Remember that Redskin fan coming here and saying RG3 is the best QB in the NFC East before the season even started? Now let's fast forward 10 years and say RG3 wins 5 SBs and passes for 6000 yards a year - clearly making him the best. That same fan comes back here and says, "I told you so.". Now, how stupid is that. And that's exactly what some of you are doing. Big difference between is and will be or could be.

jakegibbs
10-16-2012, 02:30 PM
No...It was all those "strong personalities" that kept Eli down. He was a HOF player even then!!!

Moorhead State the correct phrase would be "He was a HOF player in the making even then" One has to grow into HOF status. It's all been in progression of ELI. Now he's arrived & will be the GREATEST QB to ever put on a NYG UNIFORM. GET ME MY UNIFORM!!!!!!!

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 02:34 PM
Moorhead State the correct phrase would be "He was a HOF player in the making even then" One has to grow into HOF status. It's all been in progression of ELI. Now he's arrived & will be the GREATEST QB to ever put on a NYG UNIFORM. GET ME MY UNIFORM!!!!!!!
But that's not what they said. here's the quote I was referring to:

"Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine. "

This suggests that he was the same basic players as he is now.
He actually blamed Strahan for Eli's inconsistent performances. It was NEVER Eli's fault with some of these people.
I promise you, Eli never thought that way.

GameTime
10-16-2012, 02:34 PM
and yet another Eli debate has emerged........:popcorn:

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 02:38 PM
and yet another Eli debate has emerged........:popcorn:
These threads are ALWAYS started by these posters who want to try to stick Eli's success in the faces of fellow Giants fans.

primetime
10-16-2012, 02:42 PM
Phillip Rivers
Shawne Merriman
Nate Kaeding

for

Eli Manning

It took a few years, but this was the trade that turned this franchise around for the better. Thank you Ernie Accorsi

jakegibbs
10-16-2012, 02:43 PM
But that's not what they said. here's the quote I was referring to:

"Eli has always been the way he is. It wasn't until we started getting rid of the strong selfish personalities (casting off Tiki, Shockey getting hurt in the epic 2007 playoff run, Strahan coming around and supporting TC and truly becoming a Giant at the twilight of his career) that Eli truly got a chance to shine. "

This suggests that he was the same basic players as he is now.
He actually blamed Strahan for Eli's inconsistent performances. It was NEVER Eli's fault with some of these people.
I promise you, Eli never thought that way.

Coming back from bad games is what make's Eli so special. Just when you think he's well you know then he go's out & shocks the football world. That's what makes HOF players. The little Montana that when he had his shirt off you'd never even think football player in the same sentence much less a HOF QB. Eli reminds me a lot of Montana. No so much is physical "wow" but man that guy won a lot of SBs & was so clutch in big games. Same can be said about Ole ELI!!!

BurnerNYG
10-16-2012, 02:47 PM
These threads are ALWAYS started by these posters who want to try to stick Eli's success in the faces of fellow Giants fans.Most of these threads are started by Ole Miss fans who claim that they're bigger Giants fans than the guys who rooted for The Giants when the word Giants was written across the helmets.

TheEnigma
10-16-2012, 02:51 PM
If anyone deserves a NYGMB apology and huge crow eating, it's JPP. This place was so livid when we drafted him instead of Weatherspoon or Pouncey lol. I actually recall that one of my first posts here was about discussion of JPP and how he could become a really great player with his physical skillset and having vets like Tuck and Osi help him on his technique. I understood the concerns about the kid because he was so raw and would have a tough time to climb up the depth chart but there's no need to throw it back in people's faces.

jakegibbs
10-16-2012, 02:53 PM
Most of these threads are started by Ole Miss fans who claim that they're bigger Giants fans than the guys who rooted for The Giants when the word Giants was written across the helmets.

I'm a big Ole Miss fan & I bet I've been a NYG fan longer than most on this message board. I'm from the Charlie Conerly, & know they didn't even have internet back then. TV neither on the farm I lived on you'd listen to NYG Football & Yankee Baseball on the Black & White TV with ole Dizzy Dean. Do you know what college Charlie Conerly played at? Do you know what Pro Team he won a championship for? If you do then I guess you're my age or there about anyway...Older than dirt is what some folks say about me.

BurnerNYG
10-16-2012, 02:56 PM
I'm a big Ole Miss fan & I bet I've been a fan longer than most on this message board. I'm from the Charlie Conerly, & know they didn't even have internet back then. TV neither on the farm I lived on you'd listen to NYG Football & Yankee Baseball on the Black & White TV with ole Dizzy Dean. Do you know what college Charlie Conerly played at? Do you know what Pro Team he won a championship for? If you do then I guess you're my age or there about anyway...Older than dirt is what some folks say about me.Nope I'm 35 grandpa lol. I became a Giants fan the year Simms got hurt and Hostetler lead us to the Superbowl. I had to do a lot of catching up research.

jakegibbs
10-16-2012, 03:02 PM
Nope I'm 35 grandpa lol. I became a Giants fan the year Simms got hurt and Hostetler lead us to the Superbowl. I had to do a lot of catching up research.

Conerly Conerly attended and played college football at the University of Mississippi. He originally started at Mississippi in 1942, but left to serve as a Marine in the South Pacific during World War II where he fought in the Battle of Guam.[1][2] He returned to Mississippi in 1946 and led the team to their first Southeastern Conference championship in 1947.[2] During that season, he led the nation in pass completions with 133, rushed for nine touchdowns and passed for 18 more, was a consensus All-America selection, and was named Player of the Year by the Helms Athletic Foundation.[2]

Conerly lettered at Ole Miss in 1942 and 1946-47. He was considered one of the greatest players in Ole Miss football history. He played the tailback position for the Rebels, but handled all of the passing chores

Conerly was drafted in the eleventh round of the 1945 NFL Draft by the Washington Redskins. He played his entire career with the New York Giants as a quarterback, where he was a two-time Pro Bowl selection in 1950 and 1956 and was NFL's Most Valuable Player in 1959 by the Newspaper Enterprise Association .[2]

Conerly was named NFL "Rookie of the Year" in 1948.

He led the Giants to three NFL Championship games in four seasons (1956,195859), including a 47-7 victory over the Chicago Bears in the 1956 NFL Championship.

He also portrayed the "Marlboro Man" in commercials after playing for the Giants.[3]

Frank Gifford stated it was a shame that Charlie Conerly has not been inducted to the HOF.

Sarcasman
10-16-2012, 03:11 PM
Sorry... But no...it wasn't over the top enough. Have you heard some of the claims from the Eli Cultists? Now THOSE are over the top.


OK, I'll try to amp it up in the future.

I have learned to ignore the cultists. It's tough because they're prevalent, but I'm getting there.

The funny thing is that in other circles, I'd probably be considered an Eli homer....

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 03:18 PM
Phillip Rivers
Shawne Merriman
Nate Kaeding

for

Eli Manning

It took a few years, but this was the trade that turned this franchise around for the better. Thank you Ernie Accorsi
I strongly doubt we would have drafted Merriman. Definitely a character issue.
But its true that the 2005 draft turned out to be a bad class.

Sarcasman
10-16-2012, 03:45 PM
Idc what anyone says, I love me some Kerry Collins.


Collins is one of those guys who isn't nearly as good as some people remember him and not nearly as bad as others remember him.

sharick88
10-16-2012, 03:57 PM
Eli has been my guy from the jump, but I really don't trip hard on the people that wanted Rivers instead prior to Rivers' regression. Honestly, before Rivers started to regress, he was arguably better at the time. I know Giants fans don't like hearing this, but initially, it looked like the Chargers got away with armed robbery. I mean they had a qb that was arguably better at the time, an all pro passrusher, and pretty good kicker. It's easy to say "I told you so" after our guy has become one of the best 3 or 4 in the league and their assets are either in regression, almost out of the league, or missing clutchtime kicks all of the time. I won't do that. I'm just happy that Eli ended up the way that he did. Is he better than Rivers now? Hell yeah he is. But remember there was a time when he wasn't.

jakegibbs
10-16-2012, 04:00 PM
Eli has been my guy from the jump, but I really don't trip hard on the people that wanted Rivers instead prior to Rivers' regression. Honestly, before Rivers started to regress, he was arguably better at the time. I know Giants fans don't like hearing this, but initially, it looked like the Chargers got away with armed robbery. I mean they had a qb that was arguably better at the time, an all pro passrusher, and pretty good kicker. It's easy to say "I told you so" after our guy has become one of the best 3 or 4 in the league and their assets are either in regression, almost out of the league, or missing clutchtime kicks all of the time. I won't do that. I'm just happy that Eli ended up the way that he did. Is he better than Rivers now? Hell yeah he is. But remember there was a time when he wasn't.

"But remember there was a time when he wasn't"
Kinda hard to remember but are you talking about when they were both in their Mothers womb or what?

sharick88
10-16-2012, 04:04 PM
"But remember there was a time when he wasn't"
Kinda hard to remember but are you talking about when they were both in their Mothers womb or what?

LOL, this is funny. I meant to say there was a time when he arguably wasn't better than Rivers. Eli is my favorite player in the NFL, but even I don't have my homer goggles on 24/7. Opinions are opinions ya know. There really isn't a right or wrong answer in them.

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 04:11 PM
LOL, this is funny. I meant to say there was a time when he arguably wasn't better than Rivers. Eli is my favorite player in the NFL, but even I don't have my homer goggles on 24/7. Opinions are opinions ya know. There really isn't a right or wrong answer in them.
Be careful Sharick.......you are dealing with a true Cultist. You can't reason with them.
I mean a "Pure Eli Cultist"
The kind who goes to meetings and sacrifices virgins for Eli.

Sarcasman
10-16-2012, 04:15 PM
"But remember there was a time when he wasn't"
Kinda hard to remember but are you talking about when they were both in their Mothers womb or what?


Do you not have access to stats from those early years?

This can not be a serious comment.

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 04:28 PM
Do you not have access to stats from those early years?

This can not be a serious comment.
2006
Eli: 3244 yds 24 TD 18 int 8-8
PR: 3388 yds 22 TD 9 INt 14-2

2007
Eli: 3336 yds 23 TD 20 Int 10-6
PR: 3152 yds 21 TD 15 Int 11-5

2008
Eli: 3238 yds 21 TD 10 Int 12-4
PR:4009 yds 34 TD 11 Int 8-8

2009
Eli: 4021 yds 27 TD 14 Int 8-8
PR: 4254 yds 28 TD 9 Int 13-3

Years 2006 thru 2009
Eli: 13839 yds 95 TD 62 Int. W/L 38-26
PR: 14803 yds 105 TD 44 Int. W/L 46-18

JB456
10-16-2012, 04:39 PM
2006
Eli: 3244 yds 24 TD 18 int 8-8
PR: 3388 yds 22 TD 9 INt 14-2

2007
Eli: 3336 yds 23 TD 20 Int 10-6
PR: 3152 yds 21 TD 15 Int 11-5

2008
Eli: 3238 yds 21 TD 10 Int 12-4
PR:4009 yds 34 TD 11 Int 8-8

2009
Eli: 4021 yds 27 TD 14 Int 8-8
PR: 4254 yds 28 TD 9 Int 13-3

Years 2006 thru 2009
Eli: 13839 yds 95 TD 62 Int. W/L 38-26
PR: 14803 yds 105 TD 44 Int. W/L 46-18

Sarcasman was being sarcastic.

I hope you don't expect people to think stats are the end all and be all in determining a players greatness. People shouldn't be fantasy nuthuggers since all stats aren't equal.

I also don't think Manning is the best QB in the league but he is making his way up the list quickly in my mind.

Sarcasman
10-16-2012, 04:40 PM
Years 2006 thru 2009
Eli: 13839 yds 95 TD 62 Int. W/L 38-26
PR: 14803 yds 105 TD 44 Int. W/L 46-18


Well, there's egg on my face.

Fewer yards, fewer TDs, more INTs......how could I have gotten it so wrong?

Eli was clearly better.

Sarcasman
10-16-2012, 04:41 PM
Sarcasman was being sarcastic.

I hope you don't expect people to think stats are the end all and be all in determining a players greatness. People shouldn't be fantasy nuthuggers since all stats aren't equal.


Stats are not the be all and end all but they can't be ignored.

Eli is better now. Isn't that good enough?

Do we actually have to attempt to erase history too?

Robert21156
10-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Well if someone came out and said that the Pats 7th round draft pick in 2000 was going to be a HOF QB, then I would be impressed. But saying that the first player taken in the draft, who plays for us so we have a natural rooting factor, was going to be a great QB isn't much of an accomplishment.
I would say that the reason we traded our early first round pick, another first round pick and a 4th would suggest that he had better be as good as these folks were predictiing.
But I will also say this...To say that he was a great QB when he was playing so inconsistently earlier in his career was absolutely silly. When he threw all those pick sixes vs. Minny, when he played so poorly in his first 2 playoff games etc.... and then to say that he was great at the time? No sir.

We must call it as we see it. He was most certainly NOT great until his 2011 season. And then he was truly great. As he has been this season so far as well. He had great moments earlier in his career, but was certainly not a great QB.
Well, you can EXPECT all you want to that a QB picked first in the draft will be good, but there's a pretty long list of QB's who have FAILED to deliver up to expectations.

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 04:58 PM
Sarcasman was being sarcastic.

I hope you don't expect people to think stats are the end all and be all in determining a players greatness. People shouldn't be fantasy nuthuggers since all stats aren't equal.

I also don't think Manning is the best QB in the league but he is making his way up the list quickly in my mind.

Why would I think that?
my guy has 2 SB rings?

Diamondring
10-16-2012, 05:11 PM
I think nobody should call someone else a moron for wanting Rivers cause he is with the Chargers and Eli didn't want to go there for a reason
so now you know why.

Roosevelt
10-16-2012, 05:19 PM
i absolutely believe wilson will be great. him fumbling didnt change that. and no one was stupid enough to say eli was this great top 5 qb before 2007ish area, we, or I at least, only would comment on the fact that its stupid to want to get rid of a guy who has flashed greatness and will one day soon be one of the best qbs in the league.
u think it was up n down til 2011, i beg to differ, 2007 sb playoff run is when it all started to come together. after that, he had ONE anomaly int season, everything else has been steadily improving from a great starting point.

and u can make that statement bc u dont remember how it was around here i guess? i dunno. i dunno how u personally felt about the qb, all i know, is that i was certainly in a very small minority. a lot of people wouldnt even concede he COULD be great. i cant tell u how many times i've posted why I believe Eli would be what he is today to posters like harooni and gumby. too much time has elapsed, and i doubt harooni remembers, but at one point in celebration, even harooni had made a lil comment to me about calling what happened and him being wrong. im not trying to paint harooni in a negative light, its just that bc of where eli is at now, ppl forget what it was like back then.
i mean my god man, theres people actually making posts about how the people who called what we see today back pre 2007, its bc "we were delusional" and "u guys werent wrong, he wasnt great back then" when no one would make the claim he was elite and better than x,y,z. i at least, would just formulate all the reasons why i believed he could be what he is now, and a big part of that were some of his performances pre sb run 07.

i hate this topic i shouldnt have even chimed in. i guess id say that im sorry if i come across as trying to put u or anyone down personally. i'd just say, try and really remember how it was back pre 2007 sb run, go check out a link where SD MB is linked and see the posts there MB is making about Rivers. Theres like 2 or 3 ppl still standing up for him while the rest were very similar here with eli...and id also say that bc people were able to see what today was gnna be like way back when, it doesnt mean they were delusional at all, lol...

If you stated you knew what Eli would be then you are delusional. If you stated you believed in what he could be, that's another thing.

yoeddy
10-16-2012, 05:34 PM
For me, I have always believed that Eli had the talent and mentality to be the Giants' franchise QB for a long time. Didn't know if he would be "elite", but he would be good enough to lead the team to a championship or two if most of the parts were there (defense, running game). From his rookie year to his first SB, he didn't do anything that made me think he wasn't going to become that franchise QB (and by his 4th year, I believed he was that franchise QB). Wasn't sure if he was the kind of QB who could put the team on his back the way Marino, Elway, and those other guys who did it without a top-ranked running game or defense, and I'm glad he has developed into that. By contrast, Phillip Rivers' hot head made me question him very early on if he could be a guy who would be that franchise QB for a long time, and I still have those questions about him...

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 06:17 PM
For me, I have always believed that Eli had the talent and mentality to be the Giants' franchise QB for a long time. Didn't know if he would be "elite", but he would be good enough to lead the team to a championship or two if most of the parts were there (defense, running game). From his rookie year to his first SB, he didn't do anything that made me think he wasn't going to become that franchise QB (and by his 4th year, I believed he was that franchise QB). Wasn't sure if he was the kind of QB who could put the team on his back the way Marino, Elway, and those other guys who did it without a top-ranked running game or defense, and I'm glad he has developed into that. By contrast, Phillip Rivers' hot head made me question him very early on if he could be a guy who would be that franchise QB for a long time, and I still have those questions about him...

Phillip Rivers is most certainly a franchise QB.
He has been passed by Eli as an overall QB, but he's a fine player.

yoeddy
10-16-2012, 06:27 PM
Phillip Rivers is most certainly a franchise QB.
He has been passed by Eli as an overall QB, but he's a fine player.

You are probably right about that...I don't see him play enough to really have a founded opinion at this point. That said, I do also believe that he would not have made it through playing for Coughlin in the early years or survived the NY media or fan base as well as Eli has...so overall, I am happy with trading for Eli.

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 06:35 PM
You are probably right about that...I don't see him play enough to really have a founded opinion at this point. That said, I do also believe that he would not have made it through playing for Coughlin in the early years or survived the NY media or fan base as well as Eli has...so overall, I am happy with trading for Eli.
Rivers is a hard nosed kid and that sounds like a nice fit in NY to me. The most important criteria for being able to play in NY is whether or not you can play.
BTW.....How did Paul O"Neal do in NY?

yoeddy
10-16-2012, 06:39 PM
Rivers is a hard nosed kid and that sounds like a nice fit in NY to me. The most important criteria for being able to play in NY is whether or not you can play.
BTW.....How did Paul O"Neal do in NY?

Maybe...obviously we'll never know...it's just my opinion.

Who is Paul O'Neal?

VelocityVirus
10-16-2012, 06:54 PM
Maybe...obviously we'll never know...it's just my opinion.

Who is Paul O'Neal?

He's talking about Paul O'Neill, the RF that played for the Reds, then the Yankees. He was a hardass, but the guy was a winner plain and simple.

sharick88
10-16-2012, 06:58 PM
Be careful Sharick.......you are dealing with a true Cultist. You can't reason with them.
I mean a "Pure Eli Cultist"
The kind who goes to meetings and sacrifices virgins for Eli.

LMMFAO!!! I am a huge Eli fan. I don't get why people get all butt hurt when people are remotely critical of him.

yoeddy
10-16-2012, 08:56 PM
He's talking about Paul O'Neill, the RF that played for the Reds, then the Yankees. He was a hardass, but the guy was a winner plain and simple.

I don't follow baseball...

GCGiant
10-16-2012, 09:08 PM
It's so funny to see how hard some people try to prove they are right. Thousands and thousands of posts. I sometimes wonder who they are trying to convince...us or themselves. Forget about gaining your credibility back...it is gone and will never come back!!!

You were wrong then and you are still wrong. That must really suck.

Morehead State
10-16-2012, 09:39 PM
It's so funny to see how hard some people try to prove they are right. Thousands and thousands of posts. I sometimes wonder who they are trying to convince...us or themselves. Forget about gaining your credibility back...it is gone and will never come back!!!

You were wrong then and you are still wrong. That must really suck.
Don't be so tough on yoeddy. he's a great poster.

GCGiant
10-16-2012, 09:43 PM
Don't be so tough on yoeddy. he's a great poster.

OK...I'll back off.

GCGiant
10-16-2012, 09:44 PM
Oh...btw...I forgot to say, "Nana nana boo boo!" he he

giantsfan420
10-16-2012, 10:10 PM
Rivers is a hard nosed kid and that sounds like a nice fit in NY to me. The most important criteria for being able to play in NY is whether or not you can play.
BTW.....How did Paul O"Neal do in NY?

lol rivers w/o the hall of fame lt2 and a young gates aint a fine player...in fact the past 2 yrs he's been terrible. he's regressing. i dunno if even sd fans consider him a fine player anymore. i watch some sd games, he has a terrible throwing motion that has weakened his arm over time imo and now cant make some of the throws a pro qb franchise "fine" player should be able to make, such as the across ur body throw to the sideline on an out. he tried and it was TERRIBLE for a pick 6, it was the first time i've heard gruden not talk up a qb, like he was ripping the throws/decisions rivers was making. jmo tho. and he woulda never lasted in nyc, i dont even like his attitude. he's passionate, but also immature at times and hes not as good as he thinks

BeatYale
10-16-2012, 10:20 PM
lol rivers w/o the hall of fame lt2 and a young gates aint a fine player...

This is what a lot of Charger fans are saying. Rivers was most productive when he had Tomlinson and Gates in their prime, which were the ultimate security blankets for a QB. I know every QB has weapons, but those two guys were considered the best at their position. Tomlinson has been long gone and Gates is slowing down with age. Rivers is also declining not only in production, but ability according to Charger fans. The quotes I posted earlier show concern about his accuracy and arm strength now along with decision making,

Ruttiger711
10-16-2012, 10:28 PM
lol rivers w/o the hall of fame lt2 and a young gates aint a fine player...in fact the past 2 yrs he's been terrible. he's regressing. i dunno if even sd fans consider him a fine player anymore. i watch some sd games, he has a terrible throwing motion that has weakened his arm over time imo and now cant make some of the throws a pro qb franchise "fine" player should be able to make, such as the across ur body throw to the sideline on an out. he tried and it was TERRIBLE for a pick 6, it was the first time i've heard gruden not talk up a qb, like he was ripping the throws/decisions rivers was making. jmo tho. and he woulda never lasted in nyc, i dont even like his attitude. he's passionate, but also immature at times and hes not as good as he thinks

I have nothing factual to base this on, but I don't think that his odd throwing motion weakened his arm - I think that wonky throwing requires a lot of lower body torque and he's had knee issues and over time he just isn't getting that lower body push that he's used to.

Whatever the cause, Rivers seems to have lost some zip and can really make a pass he could have made years ago look like a very bad descision now.

Watching him pass reminds me of watching the shot putt in the Olympics.

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 12:51 AM
lol rivers w/o the hall of fame lt2 and a young gates aint a fine player...in fact the past 2 yrs he's been terrible. he's regressing. i dunno if even sd fans consider him a fine player anymore. i watch some sd games, he has a terrible throwing motion that has weakened his arm over time imo and now cant make some of the throws a pro qb franchise "fine" player should be able to make, such as the across ur body throw to the sideline on an out. he tried and it was TERRIBLE for a pick 6, it was the first time i've heard gruden not talk up a qb, like he was ripping the throws/decisions rivers was making. jmo tho. and he woulda never lasted in nyc, i dont even like his attitude. he's passionate, but also immature at times and hes not as good as he thinks
Why are you so passionate about the QB of the Chargers?
Makes no sense.

giantsfan420
10-17-2012, 01:36 AM
I have nothing factual to base this on, but I don't think that his odd throwing motion weakened his arm - I think that wonky throwing requires a lot of lower body torque and he's had knee issues and over time he just isn't getting that lower body push that he's used to.

Whatever the cause, Rivers seems to have lost some zip and can really make a pass he could have made years ago look like a very bad descision now.

Watching him pass reminds me of watching the shot putt in the Olympics.

that could very well be the case. i think its clear there is something going on with him bc he looks like he's trying to compensate for something and its leading to bad accuracy. rivers had amazing accuracy at one point and it just hasnt been there these past 2 yrs.
even the long ball, something he used to excel at, just looks like its weak or something.
i agree with the shot putt analogy, just a very weird throwing motion...

gmen0820
10-17-2012, 01:50 AM
It's incredible to see by what margin Eli has surpassed Rivers in just the past year and a half. Rivers just looks horrible now for some reason, and just shows no signs of being a gifts thrower that a top 5 QB needs to be. I seriously don't even see him top ten at this point.

BurnerNYG
10-17-2012, 03:10 AM
It's incredible to see by what margin Eli has surpassed Rivers in just the past year and a half. Rivers just looks horrible now for some reason, and just shows no signs of being a gifts thrower that a top 5 QB needs to be. I seriously don't even see him top ten at this point.He should demand a trade. He's probably losing the passion to play the game. Sometimes a fresh start can fix that.

gumby74
10-17-2012, 08:53 AM
Why are you so passionate about the QB of the Chargers?
Makes no sense.

I think we all know the answer to that one.

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 09:04 AM
I think we all know the answer to that one.
I suppose an obsession with our QB must go hand in hand with an obsession with Rivers.

yoeddy
10-17-2012, 09:08 AM
It's so funny to see how hard some people try to prove they are right. Thousands and thousands of posts. I sometimes wonder who they are trying to convince...us or themselves. Forget about gaining your credibility back...it is gone and will never come back!!!

You were wrong then and you are still wrong. That must really suck.

Wrong about what?

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 09:46 AM
Wrong about what?
I think he was attacking good ol' Morehead.
Its what they do when they don't feel compelled to make a relevant argument.

giantsfan420
10-17-2012, 11:18 AM
I think he was attacking good ol' Morehead.
Its what they do when they don't feel compelled to make a relevant argument.

u mean like asking why im so passionate about rivers, implying whatever it is ur trying to imply? wahhh wahhh, i swear i never seen some one talk down to people like u do, then cry when its done to u.

and to answer ur question, i wasnt passionate about that at all. i was watching the game, and rivers sucked. u called him a fine player (which makes sense bc its about an accurate a statement as u typically make) and i stated why he wasnt. if that evokes some sort of emotion in u, then wouldnt u be the one whose passionate about rivers? oh wait thats gumby, eh well u too i guess

giantsfan420
10-17-2012, 11:21 AM
i remember when gumby would write his love sonnets about rivers around here...he was the poster boy for gumby's flawed "see, look at his stats. thats why he's a better qb than eli" lmao

yoeddy
10-17-2012, 11:21 AM
I think he was attacking good ol' Morehead.
Its what they do when they don't feel compelled to make a relevant argument.

Whew! I thought that maybe I was wrong about Eli...!

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 11:38 AM
u mean like asking why im so passionate about rivers, implying whatever it is ur trying to imply? wahhh wahhh, i swear i never seen some one talk down to people like u do, then cry when its done to u.

and to answer ur question, i wasnt passionate about that at all. i was watching the game, and rivers sucked. u called him a fine player (which makes sense bc its about an accurate a statement as u typically make) and i stated why he wasnt. if that evokes some sort of emotion in u, then wouldnt u be the one whose passionate about rivers? oh wait thats gumby, eh well u too i guess

I'm not here to sell Philip Rivers to anyone. right now...Eli is definitely a better QB. I really don't give a **** if Rivers does well or poorly for the rest of his career. He's a QB who plays 3000 miles away in a different conference. But to be objective and say that Rivers isn't a good football player is ridiculous.
The kid has had tremendous productivity in his career. He's won a lot of games. More than all but a few QB's during the same time. Including ours. He played a championship game with a torn ACL against the Pats. He's no lightweight.
The arc of his career suggests that when he's done he'll be a top 5 passer all time. Maybe that will happen, maybe it won't. Maybe he'll have a horrible injury. Maybe he'll decline. I have no idea. but right now he's an outstanding player.
To say otherwise is to have some kind of agenda. I'd say that's what's going on here with you.

Imgrate
10-17-2012, 11:39 AM
We were gonna draft Ben. This thread is irrelevant.

EliDaMANning
10-17-2012, 02:22 PM
I would have liked to see the verbal spats between him and TC on the sidelines every other week like he does with Turner.

UK-Giantsfan
10-17-2012, 02:57 PM
Lockhart still prefers Rivers and Ben !

jakegibbs
10-17-2012, 03:31 PM
2006
Eli: 3244 yds 24 TD 18 int 8-8
PR: 3388 yds 22 TD 9 INt 14-2

2007
Eli: 3336 yds 23 TD 20 Int 10-6
PR: 3152 yds 21 TD 15 Int 11-5

2008
Eli: 3238 yds 21 TD 10 Int 12-4
PR:4009 yds 34 TD 11 Int 8-8

2009
Eli: 4021 yds 27 TD 14 Int 8-8
PR: 4254 yds 28 TD 9 Int 13-3

Years 2006 thru 2009
Eli: 13839 yds 95 TD 62 Int. W/L 38-26
PR: 14803 yds 105 TD 44 Int. W/L 46-18

Rivers played in the AFC West & in those years Oak, KC, & Denver were jokes at best that padded a lot of the stats. I forgot what year but it was one of those years when the Giants played the AFC west & Eli was sitting on the bench in the 4th quarter in all of those games exception Chargers. Rivers was getting 6 games every year against a bunch of light weights. His stats & winning record don't me squat durning that era the NFC East were send 2 teams in the playoffs every year. Competition makes a big difference in stats.

BurnerNYG
10-17-2012, 04:12 PM
Rivers played in the AFC West & in those years Oak, KC, & Denver were jokes at best that padded a lot of the stats. I forgot what year but it was one of those years when the Giants played the AFC west & Eli was sitting on the bench in the 4th quarter in all of those games exception Chargers. Rivers was getting 6 games every year against a bunch of light weights. His stats & winning record don't me squat durning that era the NFC East were send 2 teams in the playoffs every year. Competition makes a big difference in stats.Man you're way off. Denver beat us on Thanksgiving... ish made me sick. You can't be talking about 05 because that was the game when we had to come from behind. One of Eli's great young games in fact. I'm not defending Rivers but I had to refresh your memory oldman.

Eli2Shockey4aTD
10-17-2012, 04:14 PM
Just read about when to give up on QBs in the NFL over on ESPN. People int he comments were saying you forgot to name Rivers lol. Priceless.

GameTime
10-17-2012, 04:20 PM
Rivers played in the AFC West & in those years Oak, KC, & Denver were jokes at best that padded a lot of the stats. I forgot what year but it was one of those years when the Giants played the AFC west & Eli was sitting on the bench in the 4th quarter in all of those games exception Chargers. Rivers was getting 6 games every year against a bunch of light weights. His stats & winning record don't me squat durning that era the NFC East were send 2 teams in the playoffs every year. Competition makes a big difference in stats.

ehh..thats all BS.....Rivers played very good in those years listed. Whats the big deal in admitting that. Who cares really.

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 04:59 PM
Rivers played in the AFC West & in those years Oak, KC, & Denver were jokes at best that padded a lot of the stats. I forgot what year but it was one of those years when the Giants played the AFC west & Eli was sitting on the bench in the 4th quarter in all of those games exception Chargers. Rivers was getting 6 games every year against a bunch of light weights. His stats & winning record don't me squat durning that era the NFC East were send 2 teams in the playoffs every year. Competition makes a big difference in stats.
We were 2-2 vs. the AFC west that year. Why would Eli be on the bench in games we were losing?

Answer: He wasn't and you are full of it.

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 05:01 PM
ehh..thats all BS.....Rivers played very good in those years listed. Whats the big deal in admitting that. Who cares really.
Because they must tear down others to prop up their guy.
Eli doesn't need to prove his worth by denigrating Rivers.
Its a compliment to Eli to know that he is a better QB than Rivers, knowing that Rivers is outstanding on his own.

gumby74
10-17-2012, 05:38 PM
i remember when gumby would write his love sonnets about rivers around here...he was the poster boy for gumby's flawed "see, look at his stats. thats why he's a better qb than eli" lmao

Huh? I've created ONE Eli thread my entire time here and it had nothing to do with Rivers or Ben. Nor did i proclaim him to be better. I just took issue when people on this board selectively chose Eli's stats to show that he was better. At the end of the day, I could care less about Rivers or Ben. I just want to win. But when I see statistics butchered, I'm going to say something.

Eliscruzzz
10-17-2012, 06:23 PM
Why would I think that?
my guy has 2 SB rings?You mean 3 with 2 losses.If people say this is the way they felt about Eli then why do you even care MS? He was a top draft PICK so yeah some people thought he would turn out to be great and to win SBs' .(which he has done) This is what you and every Giants fans should have thought even if he wasn't great his first couple years.But you think the guy has to put up Brady, Brees, Rodgers numbers up to be great. We won 2 SB with the guy what else do you want from him???

So my point is If you don't like being called a "Brady lover" then don't call people an Eli cult or what ever you said they were. If they say that's what they thought before Eli even took the field, who are you to say they are wrong??? Every team fans that have a SB winning QB will defend him to the end, and why can't Giant fans do the same??

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 07:25 PM
You mean 3 with 2 losses.If people say this is the way they felt about Eli then why do you even care MS? He was a top draft PICK so yeah some people thought he would turn out to be great and to win SBs' .(which he has done) This is what you and every Giants fans should have thought even if he wasn't great his first couple years.But you think the guy has to put up Brady, Brees, Rodgers numbers up to be great. We won 2 SB with the guy what else do you want from him???

So my point is If you don't like being called a "Brady lover" then don't call people an Eli cult or what ever you said they were. If they say that's what they thought before Eli even took the field, who are you to say they are wrong??? Every team fans that have a SB winning QB will defend him to the end, and why can't Giant fans do the same??
Huh? My guy is 2-0 in the SB.
What the hell are you talking about?

Giantterp
10-17-2012, 07:28 PM
I never understand the point of the threads. Of course no one wants to trade Eli for Rivers just like no one want to fire TC now...However, at the time these debates were going on, there were real facts and arguments to make for people that criticized ELI or TC. WE HAVE NEW DATA NOW! I was always and ELI fan, but I have to admit (at the time last year) when the Giants were looking mediocre the past few years, I thought it was time for a change for TC. Obviously, give the great turn around last year. I changed my mind along with many other. But at the time WE HAD A GOOD REASON to question him!

GMan-67
10-17-2012, 07:36 PM
Huh? My guy is 2-0 in the SB.
What the hell are you talking about?

not to pick on State here, b/c football is entertainment and everyone can be entertained in their own way ... it's a free country

but i just cant imagine hitching my wagon to any player, especially one on a team other than my beloved Giants ... if the Steelers and Big Ben played the Giants in the Super Bowl ... you cant tell me that you wouldnt feel conflicted in some way

i have been a staunch Eli supporter, but im going be honest .... i have no crystal ball ... i just know that in the almost 40 years i've supported the Giants ... they have shown me time and time again that they know what they are doing

are they always right?, no, but when you look around the NFL ... there are not many franchises classier or more successful

it's like some would rather be right than win the Super Bowl or Bowls in the Eli example

as a diehard fan, i suffer the loses to better appreciate the victories and i suffer the bad decisions to better appreciate the good decisions and Eli was one of the best decisions this organization has ever made ... if not the best and i have enjoyed every minute of the ride

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 07:47 PM
not to pick on State here, b/c football is entertainment and everyone can be entertained in their own way ... it's a free country

but i just cant imagine hitching my wagon to any player, especially one on a team other than my beloved Giants ... if the Steelers and Big Ben played the Giants in the Super Bowl ... you cant tell me that you wouldnt feel conflicted in some way

i have been a staunch Eli supporter, but im going be honest .... i have no crystal ball ... i just know that in the almost 40 years i've supported the Giants ... they have shown me time and time again that they know what they are doing

are they always right?, no, but when you look around the NFL ... there are not many franchises classier or more successful

it's like some would rather be right than win the Super Bowl or Bowls in the Eli example

as a diehard fan, i suffer the loses to better appreciate the victories and i suffer the bad decisions to better appreciate the good decisions and Eli was one of the best decisions this organization has ever made ... if not the best and i have enjoyed every minute of the ride

I'm a bit lost here. Now we're bringing up Ben? Who am I hitching my wagon to?

nycsportzfan
10-17-2012, 07:52 PM
I sure don't. Watching game rewind and I FREAKIN' LOVE ELI MANNING!!!! Were they morons 3yrs ago 2?? Why do u have to say morons after so much has changed over the past 3yrs?

GMan-67
10-17-2012, 07:58 PM
I'm a bit lost here. Now we're bringing up Ben? Who am I hitching my wagon to?

haha, ok sorry ... things are a blur, but there was a contingent back in the day that would bad mouth Eli and either they wanted Rivers - Merriman or Ben instead

and i dont mean politely bad mouth either ... it was even worse than the fans treated Simms and they were brutal to him

nycsportzfan
10-17-2012, 08:04 PM
haha, ok sorry ... things are a blur, but there was a contingent back in the day that would bad mouth Eli and either they wanted Rivers - Merriman or Ben instead

and i dont mean politely bad mouth either ... it was even worse than the fans treated Simms and they were brutal to him Ya but ELI has totally went to a whole nother level over the past couple yrs.. I mean, hes always been solid, but hes really came on the past couple seasons, where he might be the best in the NFL.. I think everyone hoped ELI would get to this level and he has.. But at the time, most who thought Rivers or even Ben to be a better QB, at least had a arguement.. I hate Hindsight threads, especiallly ones that are hindsight of so long...lol

There are tons of players who are really good for a handful of seasons or a tad longer and start fading, and then there are guys who take alot longer to reach there prime, and then there are guys who are awesome right outta the gates and continue to do so there entire careers, which those guys usually end up in the HOF.. My point is, things change, and at the time most liked rivers or ben better, there certainly was room to debate that.. So why the thread now when no one is debating that ELI is better then both ben and rivers??? Makes no sense...

GMan-67
10-17-2012, 08:13 PM
Ya but ELI has totally went to a whole nother level over the past couple yrs.. I mean, hes always been solid, but hes really came on the past couple seasons, where he might be the best in the NFL.. I think everyone hoped ELI would get to this level and he has.. But at the time, most who thought Rivers or even Ben to be a better QB, at least had a arguement.. I hate Hindsight threads, especiallly ones that are hindsight of so long...lol

There are tons of players who are really good for a handful of seasons or a tad longer and start fading, and then there are guys who take alot longer to reach there prime, and then there are guys who are awesome right outta the gates and continue to do so there entire careers, which those guys usually end up in the HOF.. My point is, things change, and at the time most liked rivers or ben better, there certainly was room to debate that.. So why the thread now when no one is debating that ELI is better then both ben and rivers??? Makes no sense...

i dont disagree, but it is a matter of perspective ... Eli won the Super Bowl in his 3rd full season as a starting NFL QB .. .that's not exactly a slow start in the Super Bowl sense ... regular season OK

and kinda as you were saying he's improved every year in some way ... now one could argue he went from a low INT year in 2008 to a bad INT year in 2010, but nobody can deny how hard he works, how passionate he is and how humble he is and his humility allows him to be open minded enough to continue working hard to improve

and while his humility may have made it more challenging for him to become the true leader of the team ... winning and hard work have set the example and made him the true leader he is now

yatitle
10-17-2012, 08:28 PM
This argument makes no sense. EA in his book in no uncertain terms said if the deal for San Diego didn't happen they would have drafted Ben at #4. He said Rivers was never an option. On another note not dealing with football ability, it is hard to imagine TC and Rivers co-existing given they fiery personalities.

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 08:29 PM
haha, ok sorry ... things are a blur, but there was a contingent back in the day that would bad mouth Eli and either they wanted Rivers - Merriman or Ben instead

and i dont mean politely bad mouth either ... it was even worse than the fans treated Simms and they were brutal to him
Despite what some narrow minded posters think, my only beef with Eli came after the 2010 season. he had too many friggin picks and was generally reckless with the ball. No BS "tipped passes" or bad route running. He constantly chucked the ball amid a pass rush into coverage.
That was the only time with the exception of after the Buffalo game 2007 when i was on Eli. My real beef though wasn't even with Eli. It was with these fanatical Eli Cultists who don't allow a moment for honest criticism of our QB's play.
I hang on every play with Eli since he's been a Giant. He's the QB for my beloved team. And right now I have no complaints.
The only "my guy" is whoever is the QB of the New York Giants. I respect Brady and Ben, but I couldn't care less how well they play. Unless they play against us when I hope they suck.

Morehead State
10-17-2012, 08:31 PM
This argument makes no sense. EA in his book in no uncertain terms said if the deal for San Diego didn't happen they would have drafted Ben at #4. He said Rivers was never an option. On another note not dealing with football ability, it is hard to imagine TC and Rivers co-existing given they fiery personalities.
That's absolutely true about EA. He didn't really like Ben that much either. But he was never drafting Rivers to play for us.

sc_markt
10-17-2012, 08:35 PM
I was listening to AM 1090 today in Southern Ca and they were talking calls from SD listeners about whether to get rid of Rivers (and the coach and some other guy)... It sure sounded like a lot of people don't want him on the Chargers. Some even said his play has gone down because he has too many kids.

Roosevelt
10-17-2012, 08:48 PM
The problems with Rivers are numerous.

He has no running or passing game any longer. His OL is suspect. Special teams is killing him, and the D is giving them terrible field position. Top that off with a overrated coaching staff, and an incompetent front office, not to mention the pressures placed upon him by the San Diego fans. And finally, and worst of all he doesn't have a domed stadium. I don't see how anyone could succeed out there.

GMan-67
10-18-2012, 01:05 AM
Despite what some narrow minded posters think, my only beef with Eli came after the 2010 season. he had too many friggin picks and was generally reckless with the ball. No BS "tipped passes" or bad route running. He constantly chucked the ball amid a pass rush into coverage.
That was the only time with the exception of after the Buffalo game 2007 when i was on Eli. My real beef though wasn't even with Eli. It was with these fanatical Eli Cultists who don't allow a moment for honest criticism of our QB's play.
I hang on every play with Eli since he's been a Giant. He's the QB for my beloved team. And right now I have no complaints.
The only "my guy" is whoever is the QB of the New York Giants. I respect Brady and Ben, but I couldn't care less how well they play. Unless they play against us when I hope they suck.

i do remember that and i will tell you as staunch of an Eli supporter that i have been ... i called some out on the 27 INT year .. some wanted to put that all on the WRs ... but i was quick to point out .. late, high, hot, behind the WR = bad news

BUT, as always and right from the beginning i said ELI IS A FRANCHISE QB ... that at that time was a Super Bowl winner and Super Bowl MVP ...

the amazing thing is that some casual fans dont get how important it is to have a franchise QB ... .man look at the Skins QB history pre-RG3

giantsfan420
10-18-2012, 02:20 AM
i do remember that and i will tell you as staunch of an Eli supporter that i have been ... i called some out on the 27 INT year .. some wanted to put that all on the WRs ... but i was quick to point out .. late, high, hot, behind the WR = bad news

BUT, as always and right from the beginning i said ELI IS A FRANCHISE QB ... that at that time was a Super Bowl winner and Super Bowl MVP ...

the amazing thing is that some casual fans dont get how important it is to have a franchise QB ... .man look at the Skins QB history pre-RG3

you know, this is an excellent point. the revisionist history book leaves out how a few "realists" thought that the 25 int season was who "eli really was", some of these posters, wont name names, questioned if he could even be counted on, if he could get us to the sb, if he could even be above avg. and almost always compared to rivers/ben statistically...i cant count the number of times I had to type the post "25 ints was anomaly. 10 in 2008, 14 in 2009, 25 in 2010. i figured 2011 would be 14 ints, and a few of those realists acted as if that was impossible...lets not bs ourselves here, there was a few posters, (some from this thread), who got off the bandwagon. it took 2011 to remind people who eli really was as a qb, not 25 int anomaly (anywhere from 4-10 tipped ints btw) from a qb who may have felt he had to do more heavy lifting with the D we went into 2010 with)...there were some serious doubters who erased what eli had done prior to the 25 ints

GCGiant
10-18-2012, 07:51 AM
there were some serious doubters who erased what eli had done prior to the 25 ints

This is true.

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 08:47 AM
you know, this is an excellent point. the revisionist history book leaves out how a few "realists" thought that the 25 int season was who "eli really was", some of these posters, wont name names, questioned if he could even be counted on, if he could get us to the sb, if he could even be above avg. and almost always compared to rivers/ben statistically...i cant count the number of times I had to type the post "25 ints was anomaly. 10 in 2008, 14 in 2009, 25 in 2010. i figured 2011 would be 14 ints, and a few of those realists acted as if that was impossible...lets not bs ourselves here, there was a few posters, (some from this thread), who got off the bandwagon. it took 2011 to remind people who eli really was as a qb, not 25 int anomaly (anywhere from 4-10 tipped ints btw) from a qb who may have felt he had to do more heavy lifting with the D we went into 2010 with)...there were some serious doubters who erased what eli had done prior to the 25 ints

This is EXACTLY what went on here - nice post

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 08:54 AM
you know, this is an excellent point. the revisionist history book leaves out how a few "realists" thought that the 25 int season was who "eli really was", some of these posters, wont name names, questioned if he could even be counted on, if he could get us to the sb, if he could even be above avg. and almost always compared to rivers/ben statistically...i cant count the number of times I had to type the post "25 ints was anomaly. 10 in 2008, 14 in 2009, 25 in 2010. i figured 2011 would be 14 ints, and a few of those realists acted as if that was impossible...lets not bs ourselves here, there was a few posters, (some from this thread), who got off the bandwagon. it took 2011 to remind people who eli really was as a qb, not 25 int anomaly (anywhere from 4-10 tipped ints btw) from a qb who may have felt he had to do more heavy lifting with the D we went into 2010 with)...there were some serious doubters who erased what eli had done prior to the 25 ints

It never ends with you people.
Divide and conquer. Try to pit Giants fans against each other. Its all you have.

GMENAGAIN
10-18-2012, 09:03 AM
Do you guys ever get tired of these Eli arguments? Jeez . . .

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 09:06 AM
Do you guys ever get tired of these Eli arguments? Jeez . . .
Take notice of which group always start these threads. Its friggin sickening.

But I will always fight the power!

GameTime
10-18-2012, 09:13 AM
I always thought Phillips was good but for some reason his demeanor rubbed me the wrong way. Different then Eli's of course but having the same effect on some. I am under the assumption too that Rivers wouldnt be able to handle the pressure in NY if and when things got scetchy. I think he would melt down. I may be wrong but just my 2cents. Three seasons ago I would say he was a technically better QB but Eli took the next step and he hasn't. IMO....no comparrisson now who is the overall better QB.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 09:25 AM
I always thought Phillips was good but for some reason his demeanor rubbed me the wrong way. Different then Eli's of course but having the same effect on some. I am under the assumption too that Rivers wouldnt be able to handle the pressure in NY if and when things got scetchy. I think he would melt down. I may be wrong but just my 2cents. Three seasons ago I would say he was a technically better QB but Eli took the next step and he hasn't. IMO....no comparrisson now who is the overall better QB.
Well this notion that River's demeanor wouldn't work in NY is silly. He's a lot like Phil was and Phil and Parcells got in each others face all the time. He also got in the faces of opposing players like Ronny Lott and we fans loved it.
All it takes to make it in NY is to be a good player. Just like any other place.

GameTime
10-18-2012, 09:27 AM
Well this notion that River's demeanor wouldn't work in NY is silly. He's a lot like Phil was and Phil and Parcells got in each others face all the time. He also got in the faces of opposing players like Ronny Lott and we fans loved it.
All it takes to make it in NY is to be a good player. Just like any other place.
Dude...its just my opinion. I am not saying its right or wrong. Handling the pressure of a major media market and what that brings is a lot more than just yelling at opposing players. Either way....I am not trying to convince anybody.

Easy E.
10-18-2012, 09:42 AM
The problems with Rivers are numerous.

He has no running or passing game any longer. His OL is suspect. Special teams is killing him, and the D is giving them terrible field position. Top that off with a overrated coaching staff, and an incompetent front office, not to mention the pressures placed upon him by the San Diego fans. And finally, and worst of all he doesn't have a domed stadium. I don't see how anyone could succeed out there.

True, he doesn't have that anymore, but what did he get done with it when he did? How many rings does he have?

Roosevelt
10-18-2012, 09:55 AM
True, he doesn't have that anymore, but what did he get done with it when he did? How many rings does he have?

I was kidding Easy E.

btbrennan
10-18-2012, 10:00 AM
I remember people were calling for Rivers LAST YEAR. After week 1. Hilarious to see the responses on here.

Roosevelt
10-18-2012, 10:20 AM
I remember people were calling for Rivers LAST YEAR. After week 1. Hilarious to see the responses on here.

Eli sucked for a game and a half and during the pre-season after coming off the 25 INT season in 2010.

What is so hilarious?

EliDaMANning
10-18-2012, 10:30 AM
If people are still hanging onto his 25 int year I don't know what to say anymore. There were so many variables that played into that number it's insane.

He played half the season with guys who got picked up from the streets. Nicks was injured for a while and when he was healthy he still had a learning curve going with KG's playbook. Manningham had a dynamite year and made some big plays. That was pretty much all Eli had. Not to mention all those tipped passes and miscommunications.

With that said, all those mistakes and bad plays are coming into fruitation. We are seeing our WR understand the playbook and with their athletic abilities, Eli is finally able to put up monster numbers with the rest of the pack. Considering he doesn't play in a dome like Brees, or in SD like Rivers makes his numbers even more impressive.

It's no coincidence he's putting up these numbers with young fresh legs who can get open and not washed up WR he's had the first half of his career. Eli in my opinion was never an inaccurate QB. He's always had pinpoint accuracy even in college. He's just always had to thread the needle with players like Toomer and Burress because they were covered most of the time.

I laugh everytime I see people on here scream at an Eli pick that was all on him. It's like he's the only QB in the NFL that does this.

GameTime
10-18-2012, 10:47 AM
If people are still hanging onto his 25 int year I don't know what to say anymore. There were so many variables that played into that number it's insane.

He played half the season with guys who got picked up from the streets. Nicks was injured for a while and when he was healthy he still had a learning curve going with KG's playbook. Manningham had a dynamite year and made some big plays. That was pretty much all Eli had. Not to mention all those tipped passes and miscommunications.

With that said, all those mistakes and bad plays are coming into fruitation. We are seeing our WR understand the playbook and with their athletic abilities, Eli is finally able to put up monster numbers with the rest of the pack. Considering he doesn't play in a dome like Brees, or in SD like Rivers makes his numbers even more impressive.

It's no coincidence he's putting up these numbers with young fresh legs who can get open and not washed up WR he's had the first half of his career. Eli in my opinion was never an inaccurate QB. He's always had pinpoint accuracy even in college. He's just always had to thread the needle with players like Toomer and Burress because they were covered most of the time.

I laugh everytime I see people on here scream at an Eli pick that was all on him. It's like he's the only QB in the NFL that does this.

ehh....I love Eli and always have but picks are picks. Even if you take away 8 due to tips or whatever, and thats generous, he still put up too many.
But all is good. The kid is elite from here on out.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 10:55 AM
Well this notion that River's demeanor wouldn't work in NY is silly. He's a lot like Phil was and Phil and Parcells got in each others face all the time. He also got in the faces of opposing players like Ronny Lott and we fans loved it.
All it takes to make it in NY is to be a good player. Just like any other place.

Eli has been a good player but got tons of flak in NY, even after winning his first SB MVP.

I have always wondered how Parcells and Simms would have done in NY in this era of internet/social media/twitter and fan/media scrutiny...

EliDaMANning
10-18-2012, 10:57 AM
ehh....I love Eli and always have but picks are picks. Even if you take away 8 due to tips or whatever, and thats generous, he still put up too many.
But all is good. The kid is elite from here on out.Tipped passes, Nicks not running a full slant that leads to a cowgirls pick 6 etc.

It was kind of obvious 25 int was a fluke and it'll probably never happen again.

FBomb
10-18-2012, 11:00 AM
12 pages? Good lord.

GameTime
10-18-2012, 11:01 AM
Tipped passes, Nicks not running a full slant that leads to a cowgirls pick 6 etc.

It was kind of obvious 25 int was a fluke and it'll probably never happen again.
I agree....but I thoguht the whole dissertation you wrote was unecessary. We all saw the games an knew they weren't all his fault.
If others can see that then they arent watching the games. I guess what I really mean is dont waste your time, for your own sake, explaining what should be obvious.

Ruttiger711
10-18-2012, 11:07 AM
Having flashbacks of the "Each of Eli's picks broken down" thread

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 11:07 AM
I agree....but I thoguht the whole dissertation you wrote was unecessary. We all saw the games an knew they weren't all his fault.
If others can see that then they arent watching the games. I guess what I really mean is dont waste your time, for your own sake, explaining what should be obvious.
He had a bad year in 2010. He had this tendency to get amped up early in games and throw those short passes way too hard and high. The result of those is often tipped passes. he also didn't have the pocket calmness he has now. He has shown a tendency now to move laterally in the pocket to create additional time where he used to throw balls into coverage. He has also shown in the past year and a half that he will throw the ball away when nothing is there or take sacks. This is exactly what TC said he should do in his statement in Feb. 2011.
Clearly, Eli took that to heart and made adjustments to his approach in the pocket. The results from that are clear.

Its clear that Eli has the ability and objectivity to learn from his shortcomings and improve his game accordingly. Good thing he didn't listen to some posters here who thought he was perfect as he was.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 11:12 AM
I haven't seen anyone here ever post that Eli was "perfect" in 2010...just some desire to say that he wasn't 100% responsible for every INT.

GameTime
10-18-2012, 11:13 AM
He had a bad year in 2010. He had this tendency to get amped up early in games and throw those short passes way too hard and high. The result of those is often tipped passes. he also didn't have the pocket calmness he has now. He has shown a tendency now to move laterally in the pocket to create additional time where he used to throw balls into coverage. He has also shown in the past year and a half that he will throw the ball away when nothing is there or take sacks. This is exactly what TC said he should do in his statement in Feb. 2011.
Clearly, Eli took that to heart and made adjustments to his approach in the pocket. The results from that are clear.

Its clear that Eli has the ability and objectivity to learn from his shortcomings and improve his game accordingly. Good thing he didn't listen to some posters here who thought he was perfect as he was.
so what you are saying is Eli improved......
BTW....I didnt need an explaination on why he threw picks. Dont worry Moorhead I am not a blind Eli cultist who needs to be convinced he is not perfect.

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 11:16 AM
so what you are saying is Eli improved......
BTW....I didnt need an explaination on why he threw picks. Dont worry Moorhead I am not a blind Eli cultist who needs to be convinced he is not perfect.
Honestly, I'm not going after you on this. You've always been fair. I'm making these statements to some of my "Cultist" friends.
What I am saying is that the criticism of Eli in 2010 was well earned, as were the accolades from last year.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 11:23 AM
Honestly, I'm not going after you on this. You've always been fair. I'm making these statements to some of my "Cultist" friends.
What I am saying is that the criticism of Eli in 2010 was well earned, as were the accolades from last year.

Can you be explicit about who you think is an Eli "cultist" here? I think you believe I am in that group, but am not sure...

GameTime
10-18-2012, 11:33 AM
Honestly, I'm not going after you on this. You've always been fair. I'm making these statements to some of my "Cultist" friends.
What I am saying is that the criticism of Eli in 2010 was well earned, as were the accolades from last year.

all good....

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 12:18 PM
Can you be explicit about who you think is an Eli "cultist" here? I think you believe I am in that group, but am not sure...
Its against the rules of the MB to call out posters.
I don't believe you qualify as a Cultist. (Even tough you've probably attended a few meeting out of "curiosity:")

giantsfan420
10-18-2012, 12:30 PM
Honestly, I'm not going after you on this. You've always been fair. I'm making these statements to some of my "Cultist" friends.
What I am saying is that the criticism of Eli in 2010 was well earned, as were the accolades from last year.

ur changing the subject. of course the criticism was warranted. jumping ship, claiming we got burned on the trade, giving up on the yr literally even after the STL game...I remember I made a prediction thread that we'd beat philly by more than 1 score and eli would have 3 tds, to some that was impossible and "3 ints was much more likely". u think any of us sit at the TV and high 5 when eli throws an int? I question a ****ty decision like anyone would.
that said, there were posters here who had a case of "pre 25 int amnesia", and honestly its funny as **** bc really, MS is ALWAYS in this situation of trying to establish some sort of dominance or something i dont really know, 2011 offseason/preseason, anyone who had somethng positie to say about eli, like pre 2007, was a "homer" who didnt know how to be objective...which is why the people who literally were dead wrong are telling the people who got it right, it was bc u "were delusional"...eli "homer" to "cultist"...depending on how elis playing, u pick which term to use

Morehead State
10-18-2012, 12:43 PM
ur changing the subject. of course the criticism was warranted. jumping ship, claiming we got burned on the trade, giving up on the yr literally even after the STL game...I remember I made a prediction thread that we'd beat philly by more than 1 score and eli would have 3 tds, to some that was impossible and "3 ints was much more likely". u think any of us sit at the TV and high 5 when eli throws an int? I question a ****ty decision like anyone would.
that said, there were posters here who had a case of "pre 25 int amnesia", and honestly its funny as **** bc really, MS is ALWAYS in this situation of trying to establish some sort of dominance or something i dont really know, 2011 offseason/preseason, anyone who had somethng positie to say about eli, like pre 2007, was a "homer" who didnt know how to be objective...which is why the people who literally were dead wrong are telling the people who got it right, it was bc u "were delusional"...eli "homer" to "cultist"...depending on how elis playing, u pick which term to use
I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. This post rambles like the Unibomber's Manifesto.

In this particular thread, I called out the OP for continuing this ridiculous mission that some here have to stick our QB's success in the faces of fellow Giants fans. Fans who root their asses off every play for Eli.
You think you have some kind of insight into Eli? Bull****. You heard no complaints about Eli from me from January 2008 thru the 2009 season. My complaint about Eli didn't come until after the 2010 season when some dope talked about Eli being the victim of his WR's that year.
So my point was that Eli had a poor season by his standards in 2010. I was right. My point is that Eli had a great season in 2011. I was right there as well. My point is that Eli has continued his stellar play this season. Right there again.
Your position is that Eli has always been great. He's always been one of the few elite QB's in the league. That's a load of crap. I say he is now.

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 01:17 PM
Its against the rules of the MB to call out posters.
I don't believe you qualify as a Cultist. (Even tough you've probably attended a few meeting out of "curiosity:")

Oh good. But for the record, I don't want Philip Rivers back....

yoeddy
10-18-2012, 01:19 PM
I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. This post rambles like the Unibomber's Manifesto.

In this particular thread, I called out the OP for continuing this ridiculous mission that some here have to stick our QB's success in the faces of fellow Giants fans. Fans who root their asses off every play for Eli.
You think you have some kind of insight into Eli? Bull****. You heard no complaints about Eli from me from January 2008 thru the 2009 season. My complaint about Eli didn't come until after the 2010 season when some dope talked about Eli being the victim of his WR's that year.
So my point was that Eli had a poor season by his standards in 2010. I was right. My point is that Eli had a great season in 2011. I was right there as well. My point is that Eli has continued his stellar play this season. Right there again.
Your position is that Eli has always been great. He's always been one of the few elite QB's in the league. That's a load of crap. I say he is now.

There is probably very little difference between sticking Eli's success in the face of a few haters and calling out Eli's flaws to a few cultists. In both cases, In both cases, they are addressing very small segments of the Giant fan population....

FBomb
10-18-2012, 01:20 PM
I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. This post rambles like the Unibomber's Manifesto.

In this particular thread, I called out the OP for continuing this ridiculous mission that some here have to stick our QB's success in the faces of fellow Giants fans. Fans who root their asses off every play for Eli.
You think you have some kind of insight into Eli? Bull****. You heard no complaints about Eli from me from January 2008 thru the 2009 season. My complaint about Eli didn't come until after the 2010 season when some dope talked about Eli being the victim of his WR's that year.
So my point was that Eli had a poor season by his standards in 2010. I was right. My point is that Eli had a great season in 2011. I was right there as well. My point is that Eli has continued his stellar play this season. Right there again.



Your position is that Eli has always been great. He's always been one of the few elite QB's in the league. That's a load of crap. I say he is now.

The funny thing is.....much like the presidential debate....your are both full of ****. :cool:

Are there posters on this board that were saying that "we got duped" or "should have kept Rivers" "We can't win it all with him"etc...etc. WAY before he was given a chance? Absolutely!! Was Morehead one of them....no. Lumping him in with those posters is silly.

However, since morehead ISN'T one of those posters and he knows it, it's obvious that this thread wasn't meant for him. But he likes to jump into the fray anyway so it's easy to see the confusion. It doesn't help that him that he has the ridiculous opinion that the WR's didn't play a role in the high amount of interceptions in 2010. THAT is just silly. Of course they did....saying it's ALL on Eli just BEGS for people to "lump you in"

Here is how I see it....before the 2010 season, Eli decided he was going to be the leader of this offense and he was going to start asserting himself as a passer. It took a season to make that gel between him and his receivers.

Eli is an Elite QB in this league...now. That is all that matters. These threads are stupid.

yatitle
10-18-2012, 01:25 PM
Eli sucked for a game and a half and during the pre-season after coming off the 25 INT season in 2010.

What is so hilarious?

In the words of Allan Iverson " The pre-season? We're talking about the pre-season?"

giantsfan420
10-18-2012, 01:48 PM
I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. This post rambles like the Unibomber's Manifesto.

In this particular thread, I called out the OP for continuing this ridiculous mission that some here have to stick our QB's success in the faces of fellow Giants fans. Fans who root their asses off every play for Eli.
You think you have some kind of insight into Eli? Bull****. You heard no complaints about Eli from me from January 2008 thru the 2009 season. My complaint about Eli didn't come until after the 2010 season when some dope talked about Eli being the victim of his WR's that year.
So my point was that Eli had a poor season by his standards in 2010. I was right. My point is that Eli had a great season in 2011. I was right there as well. My point is that Eli has continued his stellar play this season. Right there again.
Your position is that Eli has always been great. He's always been one of the few elite QB's in the league. That's a load of crap. I say he is now.

well, i guess eli would say your assessment was dead wrong bc he said he was elite BEFORE 2011. Some of us knew this to be true and well, some needed a 5k year leading the team to a sb w the last ranked run game and near last ranked d...thats cool, no prob there. but certainly dont call the people who, despite ur wishes, DID have ACCURATE insights into who eli was, and what he'd become...but if u felt he was the 2010 version opposed to the 2007,8,9,11 version, well then thats ur misinformed opinion

eli would be the first to tell u he needed to cut down on the ints and be smarter with the ball. but he was also the one to tell u that he was elite and in tom bradys class. some of us, again, knew it to be true...and others had to see it. again, no issues there. but certainly dont call people cultists/homers bc YOU couldnt figure out the answer

giantsfan420
10-18-2012, 01:52 PM
The funny thing is.....much like the presidential debate....your are both full of ****. :cool:

Are there posters on this board that were saying that "we got duped" or "should have kept Rivers" "We can't win it all with him"etc...etc. WAY before he was given a chance? Absolutely!! Was Morehead one of them....no. Lumping him in with those posters is silly.

However, since morehead ISN'T one of those posters and he knows it, it's obvious that this thread wasn't meant for him. But he likes to jump into the fray anyway so it's easy to see the confusion. It doesn't help that him that he has the ridiculous opinion that the WR's didn't play a role in the high amount of interceptions in 2010. THAT is just silly. Of course they did....saying it's ALL on Eli just BEGS for people to "lump you in"

Here is how I see it....before the 2010 season, Eli decided he was going to be the leader of this offense and he was going to start asserting himself as a passer. It took a season to make that gel between him and his receivers.

Eli is an Elite QB in this league...now. That is all that matters. These threads are stupid.

well said. im sick of these threads too and i almost never get involed in the actual topic. i always get baited into a stupid issue bc of how a poster is treating others...