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CDN_G-FAN
10-16-2012, 08:27 PM
He didn't do any wonders in St. Louis, especially compared to what Fisher has done in a short time there.

AND, he hasn't had some dramatic affect on the Saints defense either.

He was like a god when he left here, with 2 out of every 4 fans thinking we made a HUGE mistake letting him walk instead of ensuring he would replace Coughlin (there was a huge mistake made, but it was the fans that thought he was the next HOF coach here).

Was he lucky to have a roster like ours? Because he hasn't come even a little close to recreating what he had here. Tough to have a squad like ours on another team, but i mean, no team has scored less than 24 against the saints, including the frickin' chiefs.

To put it more in an offending fashion, he's no Wade Phillips. Both busted out as head coaches, but only one has had consistently good defenses no matter where he's been a coordinator.

So what is Spags, and do we need to redefine the god-like status that he can't recreate anywhere else?

nhpgiantsfan
10-16-2012, 08:35 PM
I never thought he was the and all be all, but he did have a lot of success here. But it's tough to really judge him this year with the Saints and that mess he inherited down there.

BigBlue1971
10-16-2012, 08:36 PM
Spags was lucky to come here to the Giants when he did! he came here and utilized the personnel as an attacking defense.

his best two years prolly as a coach were with the Giants! so yea i think he was lucky and have the Giants to thank for his progression!

Rudyy
10-16-2012, 08:37 PM
I believe he's only effective if he has talented players IMO

Cool Papa B.
10-16-2012, 08:45 PM
I don't know guys. Some of the defensive schemes he came up with in Super Bowl 42 was awesome! That's gotta count for something.

BeatYale
10-16-2012, 08:45 PM
I think his inexperience was exposed when he left here. I don't blame him for leaving though, who knows if you'll ever be hot again, take the money when it's available.

Diamondring
10-16-2012, 08:55 PM
I think that the Saints maybe need to do something to get players to fit his scheme.

brad
10-16-2012, 08:59 PM
Spags scheme relies heavily on a good D-line, specifically the ends. He supplements that with a lot of different blitzes... the Giants personnel was a perfect match for his style. Some coaches can adapt their defensive to the talent available, some need to acquire the talent to fit their system.

slipknottin
10-16-2012, 09:29 PM
He had probably the least talented team in the league when he was the rams HC. Last season they lost like their top 6 CBs.

Saints too have utter crap on defense too.

CowboysSuck
10-16-2012, 09:42 PM
I think it may have something to do with the name Tom Coughlin. does it ring a bell?

GameTime
10-16-2012, 10:32 PM
I liked Spagnulo but I when he left I never thought he was the as good as manyy here thought. Only because his body of work. An LB coach then a DC with two really good years. OK....great. But that aint much. I never hung on his jock like so many here did and may still do.

22for25
10-16-2012, 10:33 PM
I believe he's only effective if he has talented players IMOLoL..... Yeah that helps most coaches.

Fee-fi-fo-fum
10-16-2012, 10:39 PM
But it's tough to really judge him this year with the Saints and that mess he inherited down there.

this

greenca190
10-16-2012, 10:53 PM
here's the thing though: New Orleans has some seriously talented players on the defensive side of the ball. They even went out in free agency over the summer to make sure of it.

Most teams in the league would love to have Sedrick Ellis and Brodrick Bunkley as their top defensive tackles. I'm unsure of how much Will Smith has been playing this year, but Cameron Jordan on the other side of the defensive line is a good, young player that can fit into an NFL defense. They might not have the depth at line that Spag's had during the Giants tenure, but they have players up front.

Their linebacking core is really solid. When Vilma is able to play again, they will be starting him, Curtis Lofton and David Hawthorne. You would be lying if you said you wouldn't want either of those three on our team.

Their defensive backs are underperforming, but still solid in Jabari Greer and Patrick Robinson at corner, and Roman Harper with Malcolm Jenkins at the safety position.

I believe a lot of defenses coordinators in the league would salivate over having that talent. I still think Spag's is capable of making them kick some ***. He's in a very strange situation down there, and I'm really surprised he took on the job when he (as I presume) was offered other defensive coordinator positions in the league. That's just me guessing, as there were several rumors of multiple teams going after him during the off season.

bearbryant
10-17-2012, 12:02 AM
Well, maybe there is some truth to the old addage of: " You can never have enough DE's". And it seems that its not just about those pesky little 270 pound DE's that chase the QB's around but also about the entire D-line that pushes the oppositions O lineback into the QB's lap, disrupts schemes, patterns, timing and just about everything that an offense tries to do. Regardless of how good the skill guys are and regardless of how talented or how well the CB's cover those skill position players, you throw 3 or 4 D linemen with good skill sets at an offense, even great offenses like the 2007 patsies offense, they just can't man up to what those D-linemen bring to bear !!! "Just can't have enough DE's!!!"

Rudyy
10-17-2012, 12:04 AM
LoL..... Yeah that helps most coaches. Well yeah

JJC7301
10-17-2012, 12:14 AM
What was Spags? He was a 1st year DC that took a defense that had consistently underperformed the previous years and turned it into one that consistently clobbered QBs and came up big. Also in his first year as DC, his defense totally stifled the best or second-best scoring offense in history that lead a team to an 18-0 record going into the SB. In that SB, his D held that offense to 14 points while sacking their HOF QB 6 times and hitting him on almost every other play while tearing through what was considered the best o-line that year. I love Eli, but Spags's D (led by Tuck) deserved to be the collective MVP of that SB.

In his second year as DC, his D performed very admirably, but wore down by the end of the season due to Strahan having retired and Osi being out the entire year with an injury.

Think about the DC's we had before Spags, and then Sheridan right after Spags's tenure. The D was always messed up until Spags and then Fewell. Nothing against Fewell and I give him credit and props and I've eaten crow on him, but I still think that Spags is a better DC. Fewell has an overall more talented defense than Spags had, not that Spags's D was without talent mind you.

And plus Belicheck sucked as a head coach of the Browns as his first HC gig. Look how he turned out.

dnotch121
10-17-2012, 02:15 AM
On a side note what happened to the SS12 guy lol.......poor fella, just fell of the earth. 1 day a pro bowler the next day jsut another body

BurnerNYG
10-17-2012, 02:55 AM
I think Strahan had a huge influence on this defense... more than people realize. I think his presence lingered into the 08 season as well... Tuck was a beast back then learning from #92. Didn't he come in and have a pep talk with our guys before the San Fran game? I'm not saying Spags wasn't a good defensive coordinator when he was here but I think our veteran presence of guys like Strahan and Sam Madison was stellar in the development of our young players. Just my opinion.... (walking away singing "like Mike, if I can be like Mike")!

BurnerNYG
10-17-2012, 02:56 AM
On a side note what happened to the SS12 guy lol.......poor fella, just fell of the earth. 1 day a pro bowler the next day jsut another bodyDisappeared off the internet and everything. I hope he invested his money properly.

FlyingTruck
10-17-2012, 04:19 AM
This might sound crazy...but what if I told you Spags benefited from having good players on defense?!

Captain Chaos
10-17-2012, 04:42 AM
I think Spags is a solid coach, St Louis is reaping the benefits of what he was trying to do and the saints D is just not that talented. He will land on his feet!

tonyt830
10-17-2012, 06:22 AM
The Giants in 07 and 08 had more talent than what Spagnola had in St Louis. And I agree with the OP, Wade Phillips is not a good head coach, but knows how to run a defense. Spagnola may not be a good head coach either, but I think with a little more time, I think can get the Saints defense in shape and more respectable. With all that has gone on with the Saints organization over the passed several months, I believe the Saints will get it together on both sides of the ball next season when Payton is back at HC.

GMENAGAIN
10-17-2012, 06:41 AM
I think Spags is a solid coach, St Louis is reaping the benefits of what he was trying to do and the saints D is just not that talented. He will land on his feet!

Spags was an awful head coach in St. Louis - he won 10 games in three years. Fisher has taken the same team that Spags won 2 games with last year and has made it competitive. Nothing that is going on this year with the Rams is attributable to Spags . . . it's all Fisher. Spags did a great job for us in 2007 and 2008, but let's not go crazy.

It's too early to judge his performance as DC in Saints.

Joe Morrison
10-17-2012, 07:03 AM
Spags was an awful head coach in St. Louis - he won 10 games in three years. Fisher has taken the same team that Spags won 2 games with last year and has made it competitive. Nothing that is going on this year with the Rams is attributable to Spags . . . it's all Fisher. Spags did a great job for us in 2007 and 2008, but let's not go crazy.

It's too early to judge his performance as DC in Saints.
Listen, Spags going to Saint Lous was like trying to start an expansion team, was a hard earned lesson but lets not forget how BB did at his first stop in Clevland.

GMENAGAIN
10-17-2012, 07:12 AM
Listen, Spags going to Saint Lous was like trying to start an expansion team, was a hard earned lesson but lets not forget how BB did at his first stop in Clevland.

Fisher has taken the same 2 win team and has made it competitive. Spags won 10 games in 3 years . . . . that is god-awful by any standard.

BB at least took his team to the playoffs once.

CDN_G-FAN
10-17-2012, 07:14 AM
Congratulations on bringing this up. Maybe fans can remember it when they are dumping on our present coaches. A couple of years ago practically all you heard was how it was Spags who made the defense and how terrible Fewell was when compared to the Spags-god. These last couple of years should have opened our eyes but you got some of the same a couple of weeks ago.

oh it was much more than that.

We were repeatedly told that our SB had everything to do with Spags, and nothing to do with Coughlin.

that's wasn't occasionally mentioned. Spags was a god, and Coughlin was holding us back.

lotta crickets on that now.

just goes to show you how hard it is to run a football team. We come up with stuff like 'blitz more' and 'don't dance at the line of scrimmage', and 'fire coughlin and fewell and gilbride'. And when we're wrong we just fade into the crowd until we can come out soundling like we were on coughlin's side all along.

when these guys screw up (coaches, players) they don't have the benefit of hiding from their mistakes like we do.

Joe Morrison
10-17-2012, 07:16 AM
Fisher has taken the same 2 win team and has made it competitive. Spags won 10 games in 3 years . . . . that is god-awful by any standard.

BB at least took his team to the playoffs once.

It's a fact that Spags built a foundation and Fisher bringing in the dirtiest DB in history has made his D awesome, sometimes they just run out of time to get over the hump.

CDN_G-FAN
10-17-2012, 07:16 AM
Fisher has taken the same 2 win team and has made it competitive. Spags won 10 games in 3 years . . . . that is god-awful by any standard.

BB at least took his team to the playoffs once.

+1

EXACTLY.

Fisher, like him or hate him, is a really good head coach. Spags isn't.

i'm still trying to figure out if he's a good DC. He was here, but since then there's all kinds of reasons why the crappy performance of his teams or units aren't his fault.

Joe Morrison
10-17-2012, 07:17 AM
oh it was much more than that.

We were repeatedly told that our SB had everything to do with Spags, and nothing to do with Coughlin.

that's wasn't occasionally mentioned. Spags was a god, and Coughlin was holding us back.

lotta crickets on that now.

just goes to show you how hard it is to run a football team. We come up with stuff like 'blitz more' and 'don't dance at the line of scrimmage', and 'fire coughlin and fewell and gilbride'. And when we're wrong we just fade into the crowd until we can come out soundling like we were on coughlin's side all along.

when these guys screw up (coaches, players) they don't have the benefit of hiding from their mistakes like we do.

I would have like to see Spags stick around and wait for TC to hang it up, but he had an opportuity and rolled the dice, he might get another shot.

yoeddy
10-17-2012, 07:26 AM
I think that in many instances, someone's first opportunity is where they pour their heart and soul into something...but then as the years go on, they lose some of the drive/passion, sometimes due to fatigue, or sometimes due to just running out of ideas. Maybe that's happened to Spags?

Rat_bastich
10-17-2012, 08:23 AM
Remember Bill Belichick's first outing as a head coach at the Browns wasn't all that great either. Sometimes a coach has to take their lumps before they find their niche and re-evaluate their style or whatever didn't work their last stop. That said as mentioned before the Rams were horrendous. After the greatest show on turf fad faded away the Rams have been mediocre if even that.

The situation at the Saints wasn't something that was going to be optimal anyways. The Bounty-Gate stuff killed the team in coaching staff and decimated their morale. Next year will be a gauge of what he can do with their defense.

gumby74
10-17-2012, 08:28 AM
This might sound crazy...but what if I told you Spags benefited from having good players on defense?!

then how do you explain Sheridan and Fewell failing miserably while having even more talent to work with. Or maybe Sheridan and Fewell are just that terrible.

gumby74
10-17-2012, 08:30 AM
Congratulations on bringing this up. Maybe fans can remember it when they are dumping on our present coaches. A couple of years ago practically all you heard was how it was Spags who made the defense and how terrible Fewell was when compared to the Spags-god. These last couple of years should have opened our eyes but you got some of the same a couple of weeks ago.

Fewell has much more talent to work with yet he his defense isn't half of what Spags defense was. Go down the roster in 2008 and compare it to what we have now.

timmytimm3
10-17-2012, 08:39 AM
I don't know guys. Some of the defensive schemes he came up with in Super Bowl 42 was awesome! That's gotta count for something.

In the Superbowl 42 DVD, they discuss how we (Spags?) figured out the Patriots blocking schemes and started consistently getting mismatches.

GMENAGAIN
10-17-2012, 09:07 AM
It's a fact that Spags built a foundation and Fisher bringing in the dirtiest DB in history has made his D awesome, sometimes they just run out of time to get over the hump.

Ha ha . . . a foundation. He won 10 games in THREE years and was fired after a 2 win season. A good coach has taken the same 2 win team and turned it around in ONE year. To say that Spags did anything but an awful job in Stt. Louis is just silly.

He was a great DC for us, but let's not let that completely cloud our objectivitiy. His body of work with NO is too small to judge and it is possible that he could be a good HC if he gets another chance, but he stunk in St. Louis. That is a fact.

GMENAGAIN
10-17-2012, 09:08 AM
oh it was much more than that.

We were repeatedly told that our SB had everything to do with Spags, and nothing to do with Coughlin.

that's wasn't occasionally mentioned. Spags was a god, and Coughlin was holding us back.

lotta crickets on that now.

just goes to show you how hard it is to run a football team. We come up with stuff like 'blitz more' and 'don't dance at the line of scrimmage', and 'fire coughlin and fewell and gilbride'. And when we're wrong we just fade into the crowd until we can come out soundling like we were on coughlin's side all along.

when these guys screw up (coaches, players) they don't have the benefit of hiding from their mistakes like we do.

Excellent post.

nycisgreat
10-17-2012, 09:18 AM
I never thought he was the and all be all, but he did have a lot of success here. But it's tough to really judge him this year with the Saints and that mess he inherited down there.

I agree. The Saints team as a whole have other things to worry about. This off season had to be one of the worst for the Saint probably in team history. I don't think it would be good to judge Spags body of work with the Saints this season. The team has so much on their plate.

GMan-67
10-17-2012, 09:24 AM
it is clear that our players made him more than he made them

but that doesnt mean he isnt good, but you need both ... we saw with Sheridan that if your coordinator is bad it doesnt matter if you have good players

i use the 85% players , 15% coach rule

the biggest problem i have with this board making spags out to be god like

is that by doing that they are completely minimizing what our players did ... id rather idolize our former Super Bowl hero players than a coach that will probably end up working for 10 different organizations before he retires

CDN_G-FAN
10-17-2012, 10:29 AM
it is clear that our players made him more than he made them

but that doesnt mean he isnt good, but you need both ... we saw with Sheridan that if your coordinator is bad it doesnt matter if you have good players

i use the 85% players , 15% coach rule

the biggest problem i have with this board making spags out to be god like

is that by doing that they are completely minimizing what our players did ... id rather idolize our former Super Bowl hero players than a coach that will probably end up working for 10 different organizations before he retires

What an awesome post.

feel the same way.

i think spags was a great DC, i just don't see him as this god that so many other fans do.

maybe he'll have an awesome career somewhere else, maybe he won't.

its important to point out that the sheridan defense in TB is outperforming the NO defense, and i don't see that Bucs squad overflowing with talent either.

looking at him as the DC for the saints is unfair right now, i acknowledge that, but so is making excuse after excuse on why he hasn't come even half as far with another full team or defense as he did with us.

CDN_G-FAN
10-17-2012, 10:30 AM
Ha ha . . . a foundation. He won 10 games in THREE years and was fired after a 2 win season. A good coach has taken the same 2 win team and turned it around in ONE year. To say that Spags did anything but an awful job in Stt. Louis is just silly.

He was a great DC for us, but let's not let that completely cloud our objectivitiy. His body of work with NO is too small to judge and it is possible that he could be a good HC if he gets another chance, but he stunk in St. Louis. That is a fact.

completely agree 100%

you can't explain away his time in St. Louis, especially compared to what Fisher has done there.

Imgrate
10-17-2012, 11:03 AM
Some guys aren't cut out to be HCs. Dom capers, wade Phillips, lebeau, etc. We had a less talented defense in 08 than 07 and produced better on the field.

GMENAGAIN
10-17-2012, 11:14 AM
completely agree 100%

you can't explain away his time in St. Louis, especially compared to what Fisher has done there.

Spags did a great job for us, but I don't see what that has to do with whether or not he did a good job as a HC in St. Louis.

Maybe St. Louis wasn't the right fit and maybe he'll do a better job if he gets a second HC job, but that second job should be with the Jacksonville Jaguars of the world . . . . not the New York Giants.

Diamondring
10-17-2012, 11:37 AM
Spas was a good DC and could be a good HC with the right staff. The best coaches have good staff with them and when a lot of them lost their staff, the HC had troubles cause that staff was good. Good organizations get the right people and Spags didn't have the right people with the Rams. Bill Belichick is the only coach I know who had success even when some of his assistance left.

sheepdip
10-17-2012, 11:45 AM
Well didnt he pretty much neutralize the Highest Scoring team ever and help us win superbowl. Keep in mind we had a avg secondary at best. I thought his pressure packages and schemes were awesome. I also remember when Kiwi was healthy and teams were on 3rd and long that he would bring pressure which most of the time lead to incompletions. In my opinion I thought he was great, I looked forward to seeing his blitzes and schemes etc. keep in mind the RAMS teams lost most of there O line to injuries and Bradford as well when he was coaching there. Not too mention his players were a little more green then they are now. Long and those guys are coming on now. I would trade Fewel in a heart beat for SPAGS. Yes we had great leaders like stray, Pierce etc. But his calls and the timing of those calls were great. We had a great d line and avg LB's and avg Secondary yet we won SB.

I still love the Delay blitz with K Mitchell coming on a delay stunt or whatever it is called.

I think if you asked the players they would say Spags.

sheepdip
10-17-2012, 11:47 AM
didnt Wade get fired in Dallas ?? yeah hes a good DC but not neccessary a great HC and maybe the same could be said about Spags.

Diamondring
10-17-2012, 12:21 PM
didnt Wade get fired in Dallas ?? yeah hes a good DC but not neccessary a great HC and maybe the same could be said about Spags.Yet look at Wades OC now Dallas OC, he isn't doing good now and his offense was bad when Wade was with Dallas. I think that they let the wrong man go and could have got a better OC. Their owner is overrated as well and the commentators keep on saying that Dallas has a lot of talent. Well they aren't doing so well. Yet when Wade was their coach in his first seasons, Dallas did do well. Romo is slippin to.

BeatYale
10-17-2012, 12:24 PM
Some guys are just better coordinators than head coaches. Spags, right now, probably isn't considered to be good at either of those. I think whatever credibility he built up while in NY faded away by now.

gumby74
10-17-2012, 12:32 PM
it is clear that our players made him more than he made them

but that doesnt mean he isnt good, but you need both ... we saw with Sheridan that if your coordinator is bad it doesnt matter if you have good players

i use the 85% players , 15% coach rule

the biggest problem i have with this board making spags out to be god like

is that by doing that they are completely minimizing what our players did ... id rather idolize our former Super Bowl hero players than a coach that will probably end up working for 10 different organizations before he retires

How about this. Compared to Fewell and Sheridan, Spags is god like.

GMan-67
10-17-2012, 01:26 PM
How about this. Compared to Fewell and Sheridan, Spags is god like.

but how is he better than Fewell?

Fewell beat and shut down Brady in a Super Bowl (or as i always point out THE PLAYERS did)

Rams are now a very competitive team without Spags D schemes

and while we struggled for 2 games with Spags on D, by Week 3 our PLAYERS got it and played good for him and then great for him

but the Saints havent got it yet

so again, everything points back to the players

if in a few years , Coughlin retires and new HC is brought in and that HC was interested in bringing Spags back, i would have no issue with that, but i also wouldnt be expecting any miracles ... it would be up to our players and up to how Jerry was doing in the draft

go watch Super Bowl 42 again ... it was guys like Strahan, Tuck, Osi beating the man in front of him more often than not ... not miracle blitz schemes ... not voodoo magic coverage packages ... it was our men beating their men 1 v 1

TrueBlue@NYC
10-17-2012, 01:31 PM
completely agree 100%

you can't explain away his time in St. Louis, especially compared to what Fisher has done there.

You kinda can when you look at St. Louis being a 3-3 team now, and when Braford was healthy in 2010 they were a 7-9 team under Spags. And they've had two years to grow as a young team since then. In 2011 the Rams had as many injuries as we did, but they also lost their QB for much of the year.

I agree that people make too much of what Spags was as a DC here, but I think he got a raw deal in St. Louis.

And NO is just a mess from the top down and their defense has never been good to begin with, even under williams. The only thing with williams was that they got turnovers after they got a big lead.

Spags is a good coach, he'll bounce back.

Diamondring
10-17-2012, 01:34 PM
You kinda can when you look at St. Louis being a 3-3 team now, and when Braford was healthy in 2010 they were a 7-9 team under Spags. And they've had two years to grow as a young team since then. In 2011 the Rams had as many injuries as we did, but they also lost their QB for much of the year.

I agree that people make too much of what Spags was as a DC here, but I think he got a raw deal in St. Louis.

And NO is just a mess from the top down and their defense has never been good to begin with, even under williams. The only thing with williams was that they got turnovers after they got a big lead.

Spags is a good coach, he'll bounce back.You are so right. I also think that a lot of coaches have their own scheme and need certain players to perform that scheme. I believe that most fast receivers are good for KG's system. A slower receivers will not do.

GMan-67
10-17-2012, 01:47 PM
You are so right. I also think that a lot of coaches have their own scheme and need certain players to perform that scheme. I believe that most fast receivers are good for KG's system. A slower receivers will not do.

ha, ummm is there a scheme that makes slower receivers work? ... i mean, i get it, you might be thinking of players like Plax and Keyshawn, who were effective, but certainly not track stars, but ask any OC ... they want fast, strong, jumps through the roof, tall, great hands, which i guess is megatron now