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View Full Version : hate to admit it but tuck and webster have lost a step



blueNorange
10-22-2012, 05:31 PM
tuck's having another subpar season and webster, who was never a lockdown corner, is getting torched all year long.

guys like nicks, JPP, and cruz need new contracts and for the money tuck is being paid and the production he's giving, it's not worth it.

imo giants need to invest in another DE sooner rather than later

Buddy333
10-22-2012, 05:34 PM
I thought Tuck had a good game yesterday.

GIANTSED101
10-22-2012, 05:34 PM
I'm not really worried about Tuck yet, did you notice how much better he played with Canty playing? He didn't have to play DT as much plus I'm more concerned with Osi than Tuck. Osi is just horrible right now. Now Webby's another story, he was getting burned by a TE. I know he has the hand issue and a hammy problem but they need to either start playing Hosley more or give that guy some help.

Gimaniac
10-22-2012, 05:38 PM
They are both off to slow starts, but seem to be coming around.

Toadofsteel
10-22-2012, 05:39 PM
Canty is definitely an improvement on our o-line. Tuck does better lined up next to him. He might not have THAT much left, but definitely enough for this season.

I think we should part ways with webby after this season (or at least relegate him to nickel if we dont pick up a stud CB in the draft). Prince and Hosley deserve to start together. THAT said, Hosley got burned hard by santana freaking moss of all people last week. First time I've heard his name called in a negative light though, and considering he's a 3rd round rookie, that's not bad at all.

blueNorange
10-22-2012, 05:40 PM
I thought Tuck had a good game yesterday.

yeah, he got sack #1 on game #7

slipknottin
10-22-2012, 05:41 PM
Webster has a bad habit of watching the backfield instead of his guy. I dont think it has anything to do with him being physically slowed, just think its mental.

But that is typical Webster, his entire career has had times where he loses confidence and just cant seem to put it together for quite some time.

Eliscruzzz
10-22-2012, 05:53 PM
yeah, he got sack #1 on game #7Tuck usually is not a sack guy except for one season. I think it was his rookie season.

slipknottin
10-22-2012, 05:54 PM
Tuck usually is not a sack guy except for one season. I think it was his rookie season.

Tuck has 3 seasons with 10 or more sacks.

blueNorange
10-22-2012, 06:03 PM
he isn't worth the money, all i'm saying is that justin tuck shouldn't be the reason why nicks, cruz, or JPP can't get a big contract extension

Eliscruzzz
10-22-2012, 06:03 PM
Tuck has 3 seasons with 10 or more sacks.Yep your right but it is not uncommon for tuck to not to have a ten sack season either. He's is still opening things for others and the fact the other offenses still gameplan for the whole defensive line must mean that he still can play.

bigjeep
10-22-2012, 06:04 PM
Well they better find it before the next game! Check the locker?

Eliscruzzz
10-22-2012, 06:06 PM
he isn't worth the money, all i'm saying is that justin tuck shouldn't be the reason why nicks, cruz, or JPP can't get a big contract extensionWhat are you talking about?? He is still a beast against the run he has 26 tackles already this season when all of last year he had 37 let's let the rest of the season play out before we say let him go.

slipknottin
10-22-2012, 06:08 PM
he isn't worth the money, all i'm saying is that justin tuck shouldn't be the reason why nicks, cruz, or JPP can't get a big contract extension

Tuck's contract expires after next season. Just in time for JPP to get a contract.

I still think he may retire. Dont think his body is what it once was.

blueNorange
10-22-2012, 06:12 PM
Tuck's contract expires after next season. Just in time for JPP to get a contract.

I still think he may retire. Dont think his body is what it once was.

i didn't want to explain 100% this thread but it wasn't just for tuck. it's guys like osi, canty, baas, snee, webster, etc

lots of guys are going to have be cut because eli manning, jason pierre paul, hakeem nicks, and victor cruz mus be intact, they're are the core 4

blueNorange
10-22-2012, 06:14 PM
they aren't keepers but i'd like to retain phillips and joseph as well

slipknottin
10-22-2012, 06:14 PM
i didn't want to explain 100% this thread but it wasn't just for tuck. it's guys like osi, canty, baas, snee, webster, etc

lots of guys are going to have be cut because eli manning, jason pierre paul, hakeem nicks, and victor cruz mus be intact, they're are the core 4

How can you put Baas in there? Hes been on the team for a year. Osi is gone this year, Tuck and Webster have one more year, Snee has two years left.

Its like this every year, its a constant battle to bring in new guys who can replace the older players for less money while not having the quality of play fall off.


Just like drafting Wilson and Randle, while letting Jacobs and Manningham walk. Saved the team about 4 million doing that, which doesnt seem like much, but 4 mil a year is what bradshaw makes.

blueNorange
10-22-2012, 06:19 PM
jacobs and manningham are replaceable, nicks and cruz are both top tier players

it's different

slipknottin
10-22-2012, 06:21 PM
jacobs and manningham are replaceable, nicks and cruz are both top tier players

it's different

everyone is replaceable.

And my point wasent to let Nicks and Cruz walk, but they have to find players who make a lot of money, and replace them with players who make less money, thats how it always works.

Which, as far as I can tell, means they need to find replacements for Snee, Canty, Rolle, Webster, Boley, Tuck, and Osi in the next two draft classes.

GIANTSED101
10-22-2012, 06:22 PM
Why do we keep criticizing Tuck for his play when the defensive line has been in shambles for most of the season. Sacks are a nice stat but tackles are more important. I guarantee in the next couple of weeks his sack total will go up and it's because he'll be playing less at DT. Whether poeple want to admit it or not Tuck is the heart of the defense until someone else takes that roll.

TheEnigma
10-22-2012, 06:22 PM
I'm not sure we would invest that much money in the WR position to keep both Nicks and Cruz. Offers will be made to both players obviously but I have a gut feeling someone will offer Nicks more money than Reese will be willing to shell out for him. There are tons of AFC teams out there who could make cap decisions to make a move on Nicks in hopes of getting a #1.

blueNorange
10-22-2012, 06:23 PM
do you agree or disagree that you need to have nicks, cruz, and JPP locked up for the long term?

gumby74
10-22-2012, 06:27 PM
do you agree or disagree that you need to have nicks, cruz, and JPP locked up for the long term? Doubtful we keep both Nicks and Cruz imo. If we keep the both of them to huge contracts, it will negatively impact our team big time.

slipknottin
10-22-2012, 06:29 PM
Doubtful we keep both Nicks and Cruz imo. If we keep the both of them to huge contracts, it will negatively impact our team big time.

I think they could manage it, actually. Just have to spend less other places. They have 6 or so players now, who I would consider overpaid. But all those guys are going to be off the team, or at least renegotiating contracts in the next season or two.

If the giants draft well, they can keep Nicks and Cruz, that is really what it comes down to.

blueNorange
10-22-2012, 06:31 PM
i know it never happens, but you'd think with nicks being signed with the jordan brand, he'll not care about a max deal because he'll make most of it back from endorsements

i just think eli with nicks and cruz guarantees the giants to be an offensive juggernaut for the next decade

The Notorious B.I.G BLUE
10-22-2012, 07:36 PM
Webster looks lost out there this year. I noticed he's been getting beat on those comeback routes quite often.

GentleGiant
10-22-2012, 08:41 PM
i know it never happens, but you'd think with nicks being signed with the jordan brand, he'll not care about a max deal because he'll make most of it back from endorsements

i just think eli with nicks and cruz guarantees the giants to be an offensive juggernaut for the next decade

And with Tuck, Osi, and the rest of those guys you pointed out, they'd be a defensive Juggernaut.

How mamby pamby some "fans" have become that we assume that throwing it is all we need to do.

DERP DERP NICKS CRUZ NOBODY ELSE!!!!

Redeyejedi
10-22-2012, 08:45 PM
I think Tucks body is breaking down. I would be pretty surprised if the Giants dont take a DE in the 1st round. The DE group in this draft is very strong.

gumby74
10-22-2012, 09:04 PM
I think they could manage it, actually. Just have to spend less other places. They have 6 or so players now, who I would consider overpaid. But all those guys are going to be off the team, or at least renegotiating contracts in the next season or two.

If the giants draft well, they can keep Nicks and Cruz, that is really what it comes down to.

Agreed, it's going to be a tight rope but it's doable. The things that need to happen imo - Hosely and Prince need to be our starting corners. I doubt Webster gets resigned. We need to find an adequate "bandaid" to replace KP. Find an adequate "bandaid" to replace Linval Joseph. Joseph is going to command big time money, especially of Cofield got 8 million. We're going to have a lot of new faces in a couple years. I don't see Tuck coming back either.

This is going to sound nuts, but we're going to need to draft dline imo.

Eliscruzzz
10-22-2012, 09:16 PM
If we are going to draft d-line then this class coming up would be the year to do it....there are some players that are going to be studs coming out and will fall to us in the draft.

jomo
10-22-2012, 09:24 PM
It is looking more and more like we will be drafting a DE this year after watching Osi the dancing bear and Tuck winding down their careers.

fansince69
10-22-2012, 09:26 PM
It is looking more and more like we will be drafting a DE this year after watching Osi the dancing bear and Tuck winding down their careers.

lol@ the dancing bear...wasn't that captain Kangaroo?

penguinfarmer
10-22-2012, 09:26 PM
Webster has never been known as exceptionally fast or strong. His success was predicated on how well he was mirroring the WR at their break. I think he's struggled mightily in that department, but that should be correctable.

Mohann
10-22-2012, 11:12 PM
Tuck thought about retiring last year. I bet he does it this year especially if we win another SB. I could also see Bradshaw, and Diehl maybe retiring with a third ring and Osi chasing money on another team.

NYKiller
10-23-2012, 01:18 AM
I agree and they need to give Kiwanuka reps at the DE position.

blueNorange
10-23-2012, 01:36 AM
And with Tuck, Osi, and the rest of those guys you pointed out, they'd be a defensive Juggernaut.

How mamby pamby some "fans" have become that we assume that throwing it is all we need to do.

DERP DERP NICKS CRUZ NOBODY ELSE!!!!

what are you talking about?

tuck has lost it, i love the guy and his prime years were great but a player losing it quickly isn't too crazy to see, and osi has been useless all year. the only thing he does well is rush the passer and he hasn't done that at all this year. opposing teams always run it towards osi and they have great success.

and having hakeem nicks and victor cruz means teams are playing man to man and not double coverage, it means that whoever is the 3rd giants receiver or tight end will get the middle of the field left to himself.

eli is a gun slinger, when you have cruz and nicks you throw the ball

Captain Chaos
10-23-2012, 06:05 AM
That happens as you age...that is where wisdom has to take over.

GMan-67
10-23-2012, 07:47 AM
they have both been improving week to week and we would defintely not have won SB42 without Tuck

and Webster is valuable and even if he has . lost 1/2 step from his rookie year, he has, at least, 1/2 step in wisdom now ... veteran CBs are valuable

look at 2007 ... Sam Madison, RW McQuarters ... those guys really helped us and neither were winning any track meets at that point in their career

bottom line is these are the wrong guys to worry about .... i know they will be at their best in our biggest games down the road

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 08:48 AM
I think Tucks body is breaking down. I would be pretty surprised if the Giants dont take a DE in the 1st round. The DE group in this draft is very strong.

+1

Probability that we draft a DE in the first round this year ... about 192%.

The interesting thing will be to see if they are more active in trading up with the rookie salaries being what they are now.

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 08:51 AM
everyone is replaceable.

And my point wasent to let Nicks and Cruz walk, but they have to find players who make a lot of money, and replace them with players who make less money, thats how it always works.

Which, as far as I can tell, means they need to find replacements for Snee, Canty, Rolle, Webster, Boley, Tuck, and Osi in the next two draft classes.

+1

At least one of those positions will be FA'd. Most likely LBer again I'd think (bang for your buck wise).

Although if Nicks get injured again, I wouldn't be totally surprised to see them lowball him and possibly let him go.

gumby74
10-23-2012, 09:35 AM
+1

Probability that we draft a DE in the first round this year ... about 192%.

The interesting thing will be to see if they are more active in trading up with the rookie salaries being what they are now.

I'd be all for this. I'm not a fan if giving up draft picks, but we have a deep team. No use drafting players if you know they're just going to end up on the practice squad.

TuckandRolle
10-23-2012, 11:04 AM
Tuck played well against the Skins, very well actually.

TuckandRolle
10-23-2012, 11:05 AM
I believe we will draft secondary 1st round, O Line 2nd and 3rd round, then fill in some needs. Following year we will go for a new DE...since we have Tracy, Kiwi, and JPP all around next year, as well as Tuck being in the final year of his contract. Osi most likely will be gone though.

GMENAGAIN
10-23-2012, 11:34 AM
Webster has been fighting through nagging injuries so I'm not ready to give up on him.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 11:35 AM
I believe we will draft secondary 1st round, O Line 2nd and 3rd round, then fill in some needs. Following year we will go for a new DE...since we have Tracy, Kiwi, and JPP all around next year, as well as Tuck being in the final year of his contract. Osi most likely will be gone though.

I disagree ...we will draft the best players available just like we have for last several years.......if they happen to play the positions you mention...you will be right

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 11:40 AM
I disagree ...we will draft the best players available just like we have for last several years.......if they happen to play the positions you mention...you will be right

Giants almost never draft BPA. It's always the best combination of BPA and need

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 11:41 AM
I disagree ...we will draft the best players available just like we have for last several years.......if they happen to play the positions you mention...you will be right

The Giants haven't drafted pure BPA since the late days of George Young.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 11:46 AM
The Giants haven't drafted pure BPA since the late days of George Young.

your kidding right?guess I am watching a different draft than you....we have always drafted the player that our draft team has rated the highest on our boards.....or are you saying wed rafted JPP because we knew we needed another DE?

fansince69
10-23-2012, 11:47 AM
Giants almost never draft BPA. It's always the best combination of BPA and need


I don't disagree with you often but I do this time

blueNorange
10-23-2012, 11:58 AM
it's amazing how people just can't let go, LOL with the' wisdom' thing. what a cop out, this is football not baseball or basketball ... players usually retire by 32-33 for a reason.

and the ones who are old and are still playing, that's why people always say 'it's unbelievable how he's still playing at this level'

i love tuck, but he's not good anymore

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 11:58 AM
your kidding right?guess I am watching a different draft than you....we have always drafted the player that our draft team has rated the highest on our boards.....or are you saying wed rafted JPP because we knew we needed another DE?

No, they haven't. Listen to Marc Ross around draft time. He always says its a mix of need and value. They don't draft on just value alone. Never have.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 12:03 PM
No, they haven't. Listen to Marc Ross around draft time. He always says its a mix of need and value. They don't draft on just value alone. Never have.

Ill give you that.... but to listen to people say we are going to draft OL in 1st....we would do that provided there is an OL that is at least close to top of our board....we arent going to take an OL in 1st that we have rated far below say a corner back ...just because we need an OL....perhaps when I stated my opinion I was too black and white...I will admit there are some grey areas

i still feel bpa weighs in more heavily than need

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 12:04 PM
Ill give you that.... but to listen to people say we are going to draft OL in 1st....we would do that provided there is an OL that is at least close to top of our board....we arent going to take an OL in 1st that we have rated far below say a corner back ...just because we need an OL....perhaps when I stated my opinion I was too black and white...I will admit there are some grey areas

i still feel bpa weighs in more heavily than need


Rumor has it that Cordy Glenn was more highly rated on their board last year than David Wilson.

The BPA thing is kind of a misnomer. It's rare to have a player significantly better than another. Figure it's a game of guys rated about evenly at every draft slot. When it does happen it's an obvious choice. Prince is an example of that. They had prince much higher than the other alternatives

fansince69
10-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Rumor has it that Cordy Glenn was more highly rated on their board last year than David Wilson

maybe he was maybe he wasn't none of us really know....if he was I would be willing to bet that it wasn't by much....I also wonder if he was why we didn't take him...we need a good offensive lineman...we could have grabbed a good back later in draft.....I have to wonder what your thought process is to that statement?

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 12:14 PM
maybe he was maybe he wasn't none of us really know....if he was I would be willing to bet that it wasn't by much....I also wonder if he was why we didn't take him...we need a good offensive lineman...we could have grabbed a good back later in draft.....I have to wonder what your thought process is to that statement?

I think they liked Beatty more than they liked Brown. Glenn has been really good for the Bills.

Could have been injury concerns with Glenn too.

I still get the feeling the giants organize all the players into groupings of players with the same (or really close) grades. Then when it's their chance to pick, if there are multiple players in the top group, they take the player at the most needed position. If its still close, they attempt to trade down

fansince69
10-23-2012, 12:20 PM
I think they liked Beatty more than they liked Brown. Glenn has been really good for the Bills.

Could have been injury concerns with Glenn too.

I still get the feeling the giants organize all the players into groupings of players with the same (or really close) grades. Then when it's their chance to pick, if there are multiple players in the top group, they take the player at the most needed position. If its still close, they attempt to trade down

This i will agree with...I just get flustered when people in november are saying...well draft such and such position....cause it defiantly doesn't work like that...when I said BPA it was a bit of hyperbole ....Honestly the way you just stated it makes most sense....

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 12:42 PM
This i will agree with...I just get flustered when people in november are saying...well draft such and such position....cause it defiantly doesn't work like that...when I said BPA it was a bit of hyperbole ....Honestly the way you just stated it makes most sense....

I agree with that too. Don't think they ever go into a draft saying they want this position in this round.

I do think however that DE is very possible in the first year this year due to the talent and depth at the position.

GameTime
10-23-2012, 12:45 PM
I agree with that too. Don't think they ever go into a draft saying they want this position in this round.

I do think however that DE is very possible in the first year this year due to the talent and depth at the position.

Reese always says you can never have too many pass rushers.....so yeah that is a priority each draft for them I think.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 12:46 PM
I agree with that too. Don't think they ever go into a draft saying they want this position in this round.

I do think however that DE is very possible in the first year this year due to the talent and depth at the position.

I have heard that too...honestly I don't pay much attention to college football....and I don't know anything till closer to draft...I rely on people like you to inform me

GameTime
10-23-2012, 12:48 PM
I have heard that too...honestly I don't pay much attention to college football....and I don't know anything till closer to draft...I rely on people like you to inform me

now you are getting it.......:)

fansince69
10-23-2012, 12:52 PM
now you are getting it.......:)

just like stats if you take it out of context.....you got me

GameTime
10-23-2012, 12:56 PM
just like stats if you take it out of context.....you got me

couldn't pass that one up......

fansince69
10-23-2012, 12:57 PM
couldn't pass that one up......

If i knew anything I might have done the same thing

GameTime
10-23-2012, 01:14 PM
If i knew anything I might have done the same thing

touche'....

JayMas9
10-23-2012, 01:24 PM
I think they could manage it, actually. Just have to spend less other places. They have 6 or so players now, who I would consider overpaid. But all those guys are going to be off the team, or at least renegotiating contracts in the next season or two.

If the giants draft well, they can keep Nicks and Cruz, that is really what it comes down to.Exactly. And it's exactly what their plan probably is. We are a good drafting team, and I don't see that changing randomly.

myles2424
10-23-2012, 03:12 PM
Could this be websters last year? I know alot of us are denial about our own players, but isnt he due to make like 9mill in 2013????
Just sayin...

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 03:52 PM
your kidding right?guess I am watching a different draft than you....we have always drafted the player that our draft team has rated the highest on our boards.....or are you saying wed rafted JPP because we knew we needed another DE?

Guess you are.

And the highest rated player when we drafted JPP was Mike Iupati which was also a need for us at the time.

The Giants under Reese have always prioritized DEs, defensive secondary and wide receivers (in that order) when it's remotely close. Oline has yet to get a look in the first round, even when it would be BPA AND need (Cordy Glenn this year as mentioned).

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 03:57 PM
Could this be websters last year? I know alot of us are denial about our own players, but isnt he due to make like 9mill in 2013????
Just sayin...

There might be a restructured deal there. But unless CWeb has a total melt down, I doubt we shed him next year given the priority of the position and our current depth. If TT2 had come back strong it might have been a different story. Just my take on it.

myles2424
10-23-2012, 03:58 PM
Guess you are.

And the highest rated player when we drafted JPP was Mike Iupati which was also a need for us at the time.

The Giants under Reese have always prioritized DEs, defensive secondary and wide receivers (in that order) when it's remotely close. Oline has yet to get a look in the first round, even when it would be BPA AND need (Cordy Glenn this year as mentioned).

JR said after the draft that JPP was 6TH on their board & the highest rated player left.....i highly doubt NYG had lupati higher than 6

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 04:03 PM
maybe he was maybe he wasn't none of us really know....if he was I would be willing to bet that it wasn't by much....I also wonder if he was why we didn't take him...we need a good offensive lineman...we could have grabbed a good back later in draft.....I have to wonder what your thought process is to that statement?

No one can speak to the Giants draft boards who haven't actually seen them, but Cordy Glenn was ranked as a mid to late first round prospect by every draft board in the country while David Wilson was rated as the third running back in the draft and a mid second round prospect by most of the same draft boards. These include all of the professional boards.

Even more telling was the fact that Oline was definite need for us, and Cordy Glenn's ability to play all 5 line spots made him almost a lock.

However the Giants just don't prioritize oline on Day 1 of the draft ... ever (under Reese).

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 04:08 PM
JR said after the draft that JPP was 6TH on their board & the highest rated player left.....i highly doubt NYG had lupati higher than 6

What is he going to say ... we had XXX player rated more highly but wanted this position instead?

He might have had JPP rated as the 6th highest defensive linemen ... but had Rolando McClain fallen to us, we'd probably be admiring JPP from afar right now.

And Iupati was a finished product while JPP was pure raw talent (not to mention (again) Iupati was more highly rated (if slightly) than JPP on most every board that year).

The fact that Iupati was rated as high or higher and not selected (considering the difference in need) illustrates how the Giants prioritize their picks (at least in terms of position).

fansince69
10-23-2012, 04:09 PM
No one can speak to the Giants draft boards who haven't actually seen them, but Cordy Glenn was ranked as a mid to late first round prospect by every draft board in the country while David Wilson was rated as the third running back in the draft and a mid second round prospect by most of the same draft boards. These include all of the professional boards.

Even more telling was the fact that Oline was definite need for us, and Cordy Glenn's ability to play all 5 line spots made him almost a lock.

However the Giants just don't prioritize oline on Day 1 of the draft ... ever (under Reese).


Everything I read said the Giants had Wilson as the best player left on board....all I can vouch for is what i read and hear on interviews..and just because someone like mayock or whoever your getting your info from about where guys rank....does not mean giants follow same rankings......I am not trying to argue here...just trying to find out where you get your info

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 04:11 PM
I never saw anything saying Iupati was rate higher on the giants board than JPP. I strongly disagree with that rumor being true

TheEnigma
10-23-2012, 04:12 PM
GMs don't always tell the truth in interviews. Just saying.

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 04:21 PM
Everything I read said the Giants had Wilson as the best player left on board....all I can vouch for is what i read and hear on interviews..and just because someone like mayock or whoever your getting your info from about where guys rank....does not mean giants follow same rankings......I am not trying to argue here...just trying to find out where you get your info

NFL Draft Rankings, College Scouting Rankings, many many many NFL analysts ratings (of which Mayock is certainly one ... and a pretty good one), and dozens of popular draft boards.

Jerry Reese said when asked about Cordy Glenn (quote) "We had David Wilson rated almost as high and was more of a need for us."

Many people thought that Doug Martin was actually rated higher on the Giants boards (which Reese claims isn't true) since he slightly edged Wilson on most draft boards and the Giants panicked when Tampa jumped in front of us and took him. Tampa admitted to thinking that the Giants were targeting Martin (hence the jump back into the first round) and given their OC and DC are ex-Giant coaches, might have had some credible intuition on that score.

The POINT of all this being (and the original point of this draft tangent which you started) was saying the Giants draft BPA. They do not and that is well documented and evidenced (if Slip and I can agree on something, you can pretty much bank on it as gospel). BPA is basically lazy-talk for "I don't want to put some thought into my answer, so they'll just take the best person available" (duh).

Kruunch
10-23-2012, 04:23 PM
I never saw anything saying Iupati was rate higher on the giants board than JPP. I strongly disagree with that rumor being true

I don't claim it's true ... just that it was the prevailing rumor at the time. However he was rated higher than JPP on most every public draft board AND was a need (and at the time, DE wasn't) AND was considered an NFL ready prospect (which JPP most certainly wasn't). However we know our (Giants) pension for drafting DEs.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 04:27 PM
NFL Draft Rankings, College Scouting Rankings, many many many NFL analysts ratings (of which Mayock is certainly one ... and a pretty good one), and dozens of popular draft boards.

Jerry Reese said when asked about Cordy Glenn (quote) "We had David Wilson rated almost as high and was more of a need for us."

Many people thought that Doug Martin was actually rated higher on the Giants boards (which Reese claims isn't true) since he slightly edged Wilson on most draft boards and the Giants panicked when Tampa jumped in front of us and took him. Tampa admitted to thinking that the Giants were targeting Martin (hence the jump back into the first round) and given their OC and DC are ex-Giant coaches, might have had some credible intuition on that score.

The POINT of all this being (and the original point of this draft tangent which you started) was saying the Giants draft BPA. They do not and that is well documented and evidenced (if Slip and I can agree on something, you can pretty much bank on it as gospel). BPA is basically lazy-talk for "I don't want to put some thought into my answer, so they'll just take the best person available" (duh).
I believe that if you read the whole conversation between slip and I you will see that I back off that stance slightly.....so you are actually beating a dead horse..slip and I agree pretty much and although you read all the talking heads draft rankings...you still can't claim to know exactly who the Giants have ranked where........unless you are a fly in jerry's office....so my point still remains that just cause mayock or whoever(yes I think he is good)says one thing it does not mean the giants agree

sharick88
10-23-2012, 04:54 PM
I thought Tuck had a good game yesterday.

I thought he did as well. Sometimes, I wonder which game some of these people are watching.

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 05:01 PM
I don't claim it's true ... just that it was the prevailing rumor at the time. However he was rated higher than JPP on most every public draft board AND was a need (and at the time, DE wasn't) AND was considered an NFL ready prospect (which JPP most certainly wasn't). However we know our (Giants) pension for drafting DEs.

Traditionally teams don't draft interior OL in the first round, I don't know f the giants ever have, they certainly haven't recently. Not sure guard as a position holds near as much value to them as DE, even if guard is a bigger perceived need

fansince69
10-23-2012, 05:03 PM
Traditionally teams don't draft interior OL in the first round, I don't know f the giants ever have, they certainly haven't recently. Not sure guard as a position holds near as much value to them as DE, even if guard is a bigger perceived need

last time I remember eric moore guard from indiana mid 80s...jumbo was 2nd pick that year and the better player

fansince69
10-23-2012, 05:04 PM
last time I remember eric moore guard from indiana mid 80s...jumbo was 2nd pick that year and the better player

Brian williams center minnesota i think was in 90 or so

burier
10-23-2012, 05:34 PM
We should have parted ways with Tuck this off season. He's terrible. What sort of starter shows up once every 7 weeks? Kiwi should be getting all of Tucks DE reps.

Webster is maybe the 3rd or 4th best corner on the team so he needs to go at seasons end too. Also I hope the Giants don't pull any stunts like they pulled last draft by not selecting a guy like Vontaze Burfict who was still sitting there in the 7th round. The guy just posted 13 tackles in one game (This is about 3 or 4 games worth of production from any of our current backers) he also has a sack and forced fumble. He's obvisouly going to be a beast and JR fell asleep in the getaway car when we could have instantly upgraded our terrible backer corps.

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 05:38 PM
Really Vontaze Burfict? Every team in the league passed on him for a reason. The Bengals took a shot in the dark, and it seems that for now he has actually tried to be a good football player.

But in his last year in college, he was not a draftable player. He played awful, he had an attitude problem, he was completely out of shape at the combine.

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 05:41 PM
Brian williams center minnesota i think was in 90 or so

Yea, 1989. So the last time they took an interior OL in the first was 23 drafts ago...

Shows how little they value that spot early.

Picking at the end of the 1st, or the 2nd is a different matter, but generally early 1st they are going to target the serious impact players, pass rushers, cover guys, occasionally an offensive skill guy.

TheEnigma
10-23-2012, 05:41 PM
Rey Mauluga (Probably spelled his name wrong but he doesn't deserve it right anyway) is one of the worst LBers currently in the NFL that is starting. Combine that with the Bengals lack of concern on character issues, it's not surprising he went to Cincinnati.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 05:44 PM
Yea, 1989. So the last time they took an interior OL in the first was 23 drafts ago...

Shows how little they value that spot early.

Picking at the end of the 1st, or the 2nd is a different matter, but generally early 1st they are going to target the serious impact players, pass rushers, cover guys, occasionally an offensive skill guy. no QBs? lol...also seems as far as skill position WR seems to have draw than rb ...15- 20 years ago that was not the case

blueNorange
10-23-2012, 05:45 PM
from pff

econdary Salvage

With Kenny Phillips still ruled out by knee injury the New York secondary is shipping water badly and often looks close to sinking. Corey Webster looks like his confidence is shot (this was his seventh negatively-graded game out of seven this year) and Jayron Hosley is a long way from the finished article. Among the corners itís falling to Prince Amukamara (+1.7) to keep things on an even keel. After coming back from injury in Week 3 heís consistently played well and again he looked the pick of a poor bunch. Although his stats donít scream ĎAmukamara Islandí just yet (three receptions on five targets for 41 yards with a pass defensed), heís been reliable and that, in the context of this defense, is extremely valuable.

Whereís the Rush?

When people talk about the best current pass-rushing defensive lines, the Giants still frequent many lists, but Iím not sure why. The Giants simply arenít as productive as they used to be, and chief among the culprits is Osi Umenyiora (-0.3). Itís not that he was shut out here (indeed he picked up a sack and hurry on 21 attempts to get to the QB) but he just doesnít strike fear into offensive tackles as he used to. Last year his 11.3 pass rushing productivity rating was eighth among 4-3 ends, but this year thatís down to 7.3 and heís plummeted to 33rd (just one place above team-mate Justin Tuck).

This is a line that is now basing its reputation on one player, Jason Pierre Paul, and as the others production falls so does his. It needs Umenyiora to re-find his mojo, and quickly.

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 05:46 PM
Since the 2005 draft, (the one that brought the giants Webster, Tuck, and Jacobs) the giants have drafted 9 LBs.

Three are still on the team, but none are starting LBs, only one of them even plays LB with any sort of consistency.

DeOssie- moved to LB
Tracy - moved to DE
J Will- plays hybrid S/LB.

No other position have the giants had that little success.

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 05:48 PM
no QBs?

Well yea, QB, but thats like a once every 15 year sort of thing, apparently.

And WR is clearly the more valuable position than HB now. I frankly was surprised the giants took Wilson. Though as I said, i think at the end of the first other positions like S, HB, maybe even interior OL come into play.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 05:56 PM
Since the 2005 draft, (the one that brought the giants Webster, Tuck, and Jacobs) the giants have drafted 9 LBs.

Three are still on the team, but none are starting LBs, only one of them even plays LB with any sort of consistency.

DeOssie- moved to LB
Tracy - moved to DE
J Will- plays hybrid S/LB.

No other position have the giants had that little success.

kiwi is an lb but drafted as an end and I have no idea where boley was drafted by the falcons....but you are right the rest of the lb are mainly udfa ..peyslinger and herslich

brandon short and jones (want to say Damani)...forget first name...both had limited success and then jones moved on and played elsewhere...they were both pre 2005

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 05:58 PM
The rest of the LBs drafted, Wilkinson, Goff, Kehl, Sintim, Jones, Dillard.

Boley was a 5th round pick in that 2005 draft.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 06:03 PM
The rest of the LBs drafted, Wilkinson, Goff, Kehl, Sintim, Jones, Dillard.

Boley was a 5th round pick in that 2005 draft.

I thought goff was starting to show promise at least in the run game before he blew out his knee ...the rest are just terrible

yeah yeah i know wilkinson ran step for step with moss....highlight of his career here lol

draft wise we have been really bad aLB for many years...the last good one was Armstead and he was a 7 and thought to be too small

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 06:09 PM
And its not like you need to draft a LB in the first round to have a good one.

Some of the young guys coming up now are mid round picks and have been playing very well.
Mason Foster - 3rd round
KJ Wright - 4th round
Bobby Wagner - 2nd round
Lavonte David - 2nd round
Demario Davis - 3rd round
Navarro Bowman - 3rd round

Any of those guys would be starters for the giants, and if I thought about it for a few minutes Im sure I could think of a few more. I understand that the LB probably doesnt have that much value in the first round, pass rusher and coverage players are more valuable there, but they have to find a LB in the mid rounds.

fansince69
10-23-2012, 06:12 PM
And its not like you need to draft a LB in the first round to have a good one.

Some of the young guys coming up now are mid round picks and have been playing very well.
Mason Foster - 3rd round
KJ Wright - 4th round
Bobby Wagner - 2nd round
Lavonte David - 2nd round
Demario Davis - 3rd round
Navarro Bowman - 3rd round

Any of those guys would be starters for the giants, and if I thought about it for a few minutes Im sure I could think of a few more. I understand that the LB probably doesnt have that much value in the first round, pass rusher and coverage players are more valuable there, but they have to find a LB in the mid rounds.


It's kind of odd with as much success as we have in the draft that we keep totally whiffing on LB...just defy s logic

JesseJames
10-23-2012, 06:23 PM
the team is going to have to make some moves to keep Nicks and Cruz because they are top tier players with long careers ahead of them and we have players who are getting paid big bucks who have their best days behind them and it most likely will be cuts on the O line....

JesseJames
10-23-2012, 06:28 PM
the only teams who draft BPA and disregard need are teams who are already stacked with talent..its an old argument.

JesseJames
10-23-2012, 06:37 PM
Traditionally teams don't draft interior OL in the first round, I don't know f the giants ever have, they certainly haven't recently. Not sure guard as a position holds near as much value to them as DE, even if guard is a bigger perceived need

wasn't Pettigout drafted in round 1

Ny_STAT1989
10-23-2012, 06:55 PM
I think the Giants might let Nicks walk if Randle pans out the did say he was the same player as Nicks

JJC7301
10-23-2012, 11:41 PM
Webster's playing with a broken arm, isn't he?

I have to agree with you on Tuck. He hasn't been consistent for the past two years, and I actually don't think he's been dominant ever since he suffered that shoulder injury when he got intentionally tripped or pushed by the jackass Dallas Cowboy o-lineman (name not recalled).

slipknottin
10-23-2012, 11:44 PM
wasn't Pettigout drafted in round 1

Yes, but they drafted him to play left tackle.

burier
10-24-2012, 03:01 PM
Really Vontaze Burfict? Every team in the league passed on him for a reason. The Bengals took a shot in the dark, and it seems that for now he has actually tried to be a good football player.

But in his last year in college, he was not a draftable player. He played awful, he had an attitude problem, he was completely out of shape at the combine.

Yes Vontaze Burfict. Nothing happened at the combine that should have kept us from taking him in the 6th or 7th round, Thats first round talent at a basement discount. Any ******* would take advantage of that and we look stupid now. The kid is a stud out the gate at a position of need.

BillTheGreek
10-24-2012, 03:10 PM
No Time to be out of Step ! Yea, lets hope they get back in Step ! Can't wait till Sunday's Game ! In Fact cant wait for any Giant Game............

slipknottin
10-24-2012, 03:24 PM
Yes Vontaze Burfict. Nothing happened at the combine that should have kept us from taking him in the 6th or 7th round, Thats first round talent at a basement discount. Any ******* would take advantage of that and we look stupid now. The kid is a stud out the gate at a position of need.

A ton happened. He needed the reality check of not being drafted.

GMENAGAIN
10-24-2012, 05:06 PM
Yes Vontaze Burfict. Nothing happened at the combine that should have kept us from taking him in the 6th or 7th round, Thats first round talent at a basement discount. Any ******* would take advantage of that and we look stupid now. The kid is a stud out the gate at a position of need.

What a dumb post.

Every NFL team passed on the guy 7 times, but you knew better, right?

Hindsight is 20/20.

GMENAGAIN
10-24-2012, 05:09 PM
Traditionally teams don't draft interior OL in the first round, I don't know f the giants ever have, they certainly haven't recently. Not sure guard as a position holds near as much value to them as DE, even if guard is a bigger perceived need

The closest I can remember recently is Snee at the top of the second round . . . .

BigJ
10-25-2012, 12:07 AM
Havnt lookes over all the other posts on this page but I do have to say that Corey Webster flat out sucks this year. Someone mentioned in the begining of the season that he was a top 5 Corner and he is not even close to a top 10 haha. I hope Prince actually sticks Dez this week...... As for the posts above People on this board were sayin Hoesly was the steal of the draft, I can tell by him gettin roasted by old man Santana Moss last week that he is not a steal haha. But Bufict, now he iis def the biggest steal of this Draft. Take a good look at him