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View Full Version : Let the debate begin: Eli or Big Ben



dsd28
10-31-2012, 10:35 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/57999/let-the-debate-begin-eli-or-big-ben


When the Steelers play the Giants on Sunday, there will be something swirling at New York's MetLife Stadium that has nothing to do with a superstorm. It's the long-running debate over whether Ben Roethlisberger (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger) or Eli Manning (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/5526/eli-manning) is the best quarterback from the 2004 draft.

Roethlisberger and Manning are known for winning Super Bowls (they've combined to win four of the eight played since they entered the league). They're known for making big plays in big moments. They're known for being tough, albeit in different ways. And they have been forever linked since the day they were drafted in the first round eight years ago. Manning was selected first overall, and Roethlisberger was taken at No. 11. The margin between them is much, much closer now.

Choosing between Roethlisberger and Manning is difficult because there really isn't a right answer or a wrong one. It ultimately comes down to preference and perspective. In his preseason quarterback rankings, John Clayton put Roethlisberger at No. 4 and Manning at No. 5. In Ron Jaworski's rankings, Manning is No. 5 and Roethlisberger is No. 6.

"By any measure, in terms of how you would grade them -- wins, production, leading your team from behind, frightening the other team, forcing the other team to adjust to what they do -- they're virtually identical," said Bill Polian, an NFL analyst for ESPN Insider who spent 24 seasons as a general manager in the league.

There's also a couple polls here: http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/polls?pCat=46&sCat=3335

the one i had to think about most was: "Which team would go the farthest this season if they switched quarterbacks? Giants with Ben Roethlisberger or Steelers with Eli Manning?"

joemorrisforprez
10-31-2012, 10:39 PM
I think they are both very good QB's, but I'd take Manning over Roethlisberger. As a Giants fan, I'm biased.

Also, I think Eli Manning is a good, decent person, and I think Roethlisberger is an arrogant scumbag. I realize that has nothing to do with wins and losses, but I think the character of the player helps to build the tradition and culture of an organization......for example, George Martin, Harry Carson, Phil Simms, Mark Bavaro......great guys on and off the field.

ozzie0075
10-31-2012, 10:41 PM
I don't think it really matters both teams are happy with their guy. However Ben has had his off the field issues while Manning has been a model citizen.

Moke
10-31-2012, 10:41 PM
I'd take Eli. They're both great QBs, but I love Eli as a player and a person a lot more.

Rudyy
10-31-2012, 10:44 PM
Both quarterbacks are elite, but obviously I'd choose Eli over any other qb in the league.

TheEnigma
10-31-2012, 10:46 PM
Hmm I still think they would of won 1 SB a piece at the least if they were on the opposite team. Gotta admit it would of been interesting to see Eli as a player deal with a new coaching staff or offensive coordinator like Big Ben has this year.

ozzie0075
10-31-2012, 10:50 PM
Hmm I still think they would of won 1 SB a piece at the least if they were on the opposite team. Gotta admit it would of been interesting to see Eli as a player deal with a new coaching staff or offensive coordinator like Big Ben has this year.

Difference Ben complains to the media about the offense while Eli would keep his mouth shut and work harder to make the offense better. They are complete opposites personality wise.

Cool Papa B.
10-31-2012, 11:04 PM
This is a job for the N"if"L.....

Both are great QB's. Their excellent leaders of their teams, they throw the ball well, read defensive schemes quickly and are pretty tough hombre's.

The one thing that Eli stands out most over Ben is that he's clutch. 2 minutes left in the game and my team needs a TD to win I can't think of any QB in the league right now who I'd rather have the ball than Eli.

smlst40
10-31-2012, 11:05 PM
Ugh... I had to listen to this all day. I live in Pittsburgh and the local radio posed the "who would you rather have? Would you trade one for the other? Would either one fare well if the cities were switched?"

To a man, every caller was like -- "Ben is much stronger than Eli, Eli isn't tough enough, Eli has always played behind an above average line, Eli couldn't make it in Pittsburgh because of the shadow of Bradshaw, Eli has the benefit of playing for Coughlin who worked with Belichick and is a Parcells disciple (I guess is the logic for how we won our super bowls?), it goes on and on.

Me, the voice of reason decided to call in to state the facts and was told my comments were "inaccurate" My statement of facts were the reason Ben's line is so crappy due to the front office not evaluating talent as well as our front office, Eli has not had a top 5 line in a good 2-3 years if not longer and that Ben doesn't have the mental make-up to make it in NY, when pressed I stated -- look at his tantrums he has about play calling and whining to the press about his injuries, neither would go over in NY. I didn't even start on the rape allegations.

Cool Papa B.
10-31-2012, 11:22 PM
Ugh... I had to listen to this all day. I live in Pittsburgh and the local radio posed the "who would you rather have? Would you trade one for the other? Would either one fare well if the cities were switched?"

To a man, every caller was like -- "Ben is much stronger than Eli, Eli isn't tough enough, Eli has always played behind an above average line, Eli couldn't make it in Pittsburgh because of the shadow of Bradshaw, Eli has the benefit of playing for Coughlin who worked with Belichick and is a Parcells disciple (I guess is the logic for how we won our super bowls?), it goes on and on.

Me, the voice of reason decided to call in to state the facts and was told my comments were "inaccurate" My statement of facts were the reason Ben's line is so crappy due to the front office not evaluating talent as well as our front office, Eli has not had a top 5 line in a good 2-3 years if not longer and that Ben doesn't have the mental make-up to make it in NY, when pressed I stated -- look at his tantrums he has about play calling and whining to the press about his injuries, neither would go over in NY. I didn't even start on the rape allegations.

Eli isn't tough enough????? The same guy who hasn't missed a game since he became the starting QB? Seriously? He has always played with an above average OLine? The Oline almost got him killed las,t year and they still won it all.

Eli wouldn't make it in Pittsburgh because of the shadow of Bradshaw? LOL He's had to live in the shadow of his big brother AND his father his whole life. He went to the same college where his father was a legend. AND he plays in New York. One of the hardest, if not the hardest, place to play. Eli laughs in the face of pressure everyday.

tabascocat
11-01-2012, 02:14 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't say both Eli and Ben are elite. Elite is Brady, Payton, Aaron and probably Brees. Then there is Eli and Ben, who are just below elite but above everyone else. The group below those two include Ryan, Schaub, Rivers, Romo, etc. If Eli gets one more ring, that will be his ticket to the elite level IMO.

But out of those two choices, I would have to go with Eli. I really can't stand Big Ben and think he is very overrated. He is lucky his teams have had a good defense.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 04:03 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't say both Eli and Ben are elite. Elite is Brady, Payton, Aaron and probably Brees. Then there is Eli and Ben, who are just below elite but above everyone else. The group below those two include Ryan, Schaub, Rivers, Romo, etc. If Eli gets one more ring, that will be his ticket to the elite level IMO.

But out of those two choices, I would have to go with Eli. I really can't stand Big Ben and think he is very overrated. He is lucky his teams have had a good defense.

elite in no specific order

brady
peyton
rodgers
eli
brees
big ben.

These guys are elite in their own different ways and they all have aspects that the other doesn't. They all have their off games though.

BurnerNYG
11-01-2012, 04:20 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't say both Eli and Ben are elite. Elite is Brady, Payton, Aaron and probably Brees. Then there is Eli and Ben, who are just below elite but above everyone else. The group below those two include Ryan, Schaub, Rivers, Romo, etc. If Eli gets one more ring, that will be his ticket to the elite level IMO.

But out of those two choices, I would have to go with Eli. I really can't stand Big Ben and think he is very overrated. He is lucky his teams have had a good defense.I would expect a Cowboys fan to say Eli's not elite. Romo isn't no where near the elite status. How many boneheaded picks has he thrown this year? How many playoff games has he won? Ryan, Schaub and Rivers are much better QB's. Romo is like Vick, overrated and he should be riding the pine like he'll be doing this Sunday.

The Steelers have been relevant since Big Ben got drafted. How many different receivers has Roethlisberger thrown to? Seems he has a different group every other year like Eli. Yeah they have a good D but he could be throwing picks and constantly putting the D in bad spots like Romo does. Flacco is better than Tony Homo. Go take those star shaped blue and glittery silver glasses off.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 04:23 AM
I would expect a Cowboys fan to say Eli's not elite. Romo isn't no where near the elite status. How many boneheaded picks has he thrown this year? How many playoff games has he won? Ryan, Schaub and Rivers are much better QB's. Romo is like Vick, overrated and he should be riding the pine like he'll be doing this Sunday.

The Steelers have been relevant since Big Ben got drafted. How many different receivers has Roethlisberger thrown to? Seems he has a different group every other year like Eli. Yeah they have a good D but he could be throwing picks and constantly putting the D in bad spots like Romo does. Flacco is better than Tony Homo. Go take those star shaped blue and glittery silver glasses off.

lol rivers vs romo is a tough one

BurnerNYG
11-01-2012, 04:31 AM
lol rivers vs romo is a tough oneI'll give him that but I can't completely throw Rivers under the bus for having a bad year. It can be that coaching staff and organization.

Captain Chaos
11-01-2012, 04:48 AM
I think for me it comes down to preference as the article said. I prefer Eli's style over Ben's, don't particularly care for some of Ben's comments and attitude. I do think he is a warrior, loves the game and is a good QB. I also think in the long run Eli's style will prove to be better....

Out of Exile
11-01-2012, 05:13 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't say both Eli and Ben are elite. Elite is Brady, Payton, Aaron and probably Brees. Then there is Eli and Ben, who are just below elite but above everyone else. The group below those two include Ryan, Schaub, Rivers, Romo, etc. If Eli gets one more ring, that will be his ticket to the elite level IMO.

But out of those two choices, I would have to go with Eli. I really can't stand Big Ben and think he is very overrated. He is lucky his teams have had a good defense.

Anddddddddddddddddddd your credibility is gone.

Eli, not elite? Name 10 QB's better than Eli. I consider any QB in the top 10 to be elite.

stormblue
11-01-2012, 07:05 AM
i would keep Eli

EliDaMANning
11-01-2012, 08:21 AM
Big Ben had a chance for his 3rd SB but went 4 and out. Eli would've found a way.

TheAnalyst
11-01-2012, 08:37 AM
Ben would not last a season in NY with the media. His checkered off the field issues would haunt him here to the point of forced retirement / trade. Look at Bens "success" in the postseason too. Eli in his 2 superbowl runs was way more dominant then Ben in his. Ben relied more on his defense. Not saying Eli didn't especially in 2007, but to a lesser extent.

By the way, begin the debate? Where have you been the past 9 years?

Mistanihan
11-01-2012, 09:05 AM
Eli, Eli Eli, Eli Eli, Eli Eli, Eli Eli, Eli

bigblue58
11-01-2012, 09:15 AM
Eli isn't tough enough????? The same guy who hasn't missed a game since he became the starting QB? Seriously? He has always played with an above average OLine? The Oline almost got him killed las,t year and they still won it all.

Eli wouldn't make it in Pittsburgh because of the shadow of Bradshaw? LOL He's had to live in the shadow of his big brother AND his father his whole life. He went to the same college where his father was a legend. AND he plays in New York. One of the hardest, if not the hardest, place to play. Eli laughs in the face of pressure everyday.

+infinity (if that doesn't sound to juvenile)
Great rebuttal!!!

WEG313
11-01-2012, 09:31 AM
+infinity (if that doesn't sound to juvenile)
Great rebuttal!!!

Someone needs to send this guy film of last year's NFC championship game vs. the 49ers.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 09:37 AM
Ben would not last a season in NY with the media. His checkered off the field issues would haunt him here to the point of forced retirement / trade.

Why, though? is it because fans like you wouldnt forgive him?

TheAnalyst
11-01-2012, 10:08 AM
Why, though? is it because fans like you wouldnt forgive him?

Really? He was accused of rape. You think that would fly here? In this organization? In this city?

He wrecked his motorcycle and wasn't wearing a helmet, then after that, pictures came out of him flipping the bird to a photographer while, get this, NOT WEARING A HELMET on his bike again.

You really think that would fly here?

With Coughlin? With Mara? Really?

Fans like me care about winning, and thats about it. But I do have some dignity to want my teams leaders to be nice guys.

bigblue58
11-01-2012, 10:08 AM
Considering that they both have 2 SB rings and fit their repective teams like 2 very tall gloves makes this debate rather pointless and silly!

JayMas9
11-01-2012, 10:33 AM
To me it comes down to one thing when comparing their resumes. Eli has two super bowl mvps and led game winning drives for TDS in each of them. Ben has no Super Bowl MVPs with his two victories. Though Ben is clutch, Eli has proven himself to be the most clutch quarterback in the NFL.

Eli every time, and that's not a knock on Ben.

nhpgiantsfan
11-01-2012, 10:58 AM
This is an easy one..

As Giant fans we would never trade Eli for Ben.

And Steeler fans would never trade Ben for Eli..

bigblue58
11-01-2012, 11:03 AM
Someone needs to send this guy film of last year's NFC championship game vs. the 49ers.

yeah definitely!
Eli also played with plantar fasciitis (which I HAD and know first hand how painful it is),
a severe blow to his head that resulted in an open wound, AND a shoulder injury that he..... ahem....shrugged off!
Anyone who claims that Eli isn't tough is totally in the weeds, and reads too many sports pages, because they certainly have never watched him play.

tcseacliff
11-01-2012, 12:23 PM
I think they are both very good QB's, but I'd take Manning over Roethlisberger. As a Giants fan, I'm biased.

Also, I think Eli Manning is a good, decent person, and I think Roethlisberger is an arrogant scumbag. I realize that has nothing to do with wins and losses, but I think the character of the player helps to build the tradition and culture of an organization......for example, George Martin, Harry Carson, Phil Simms, Mark Bavaro......great guys on and off the field.

BINGO! like he said ! I think character adds much to a QB, but then again,, rumor was Babe Ruth was a pr*ck too, and fans liked him! Eli- FTW!

BillTheGreek
11-01-2012, 12:31 PM
Eli is smarter than Ben......
Eli has more talent
Eli does not panic under pressure
=====================================
Ben's a better runner than Eli
Ben's Bigger & Tougher
Ben has less control

If It was up to me, It's a no Brainer ...( .Brains & Talent ....Eli Wins ) or does he ? Lets Leave this for Sunday !

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 12:39 PM
Eli is smarter than Ben......
Eli has more talent
Eli does not panic under pressure
=====================================
Ben's a better runner than Eli
Ben's Bigger & Tougher
Ben has less control

If It was up to me, It's a no Brainer ...( .Brains & Talent ....Eli Wins ) or does he ? Lets Leave this for Sunday !
Ben and Eli have a very similar record. Both have won 2 SB's. Stats are somewhat similar.
They are on the same level. Both are outstanding with their own strengths.
Ben seems to have the edge in most measurables.
Stats, win/loss etc. But Eli wears blue.

ashleymarie
11-01-2012, 01:02 PM
But Eli wears blue.

I love that quote.

tabascocat
11-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Anddddddddddddddddddd your credibility is gone.

Eli, not elite? Name 10 QB's better than Eli. I consider any QB in the top 10 to be elite.

I am devastated my credibility is gone now :(

Yours is now in question since you think 1/3 of the league's QB's are "elite". For me, elite is top 3, maybe pushing four in some seasons. Eli is not in the top 3 or 4 yet. He is a very good QB and has more seasons to get into the top three, but he is not there yet IMO.


I would expect a Cowboys fan to say Eli's not elite. Romo isn't no where near the elite status. How many boneheaded picks has he thrown this year? How many playoff games has he won? Ryan, Schaub and Rivers are much better QB's. Romo is like Vick, overrated and he should be riding the pine like he'll be doing this Sunday.

Nowhere in my post did I say Romo was at Eli's status, take off your homer glasses and re-read it without your auto-defense mechanism kicking in. I am not going to go into the bone-headed picks but a lot of them fall on the receivers, but Romo does throw some doozies now and then. And for the record, Romo is nothing like Vick, Tony is a much better QB.

PennState1
11-01-2012, 01:55 PM
They are both great QBs. Eli has great personal character. Based on some of Ben's issues I have to conclude he is lacking in that department. If my kid had to choose one to look up to it would be Eli...hands down, no contest.

Roosevelt
11-01-2012, 02:10 PM
Even while being partial to Eli, the only argument is what might have been had we had Ben and those draft picks? But when you think about it, who really cares. Eli has turned into everything we could have hoped for.

JayMas9
11-01-2012, 02:13 PM
I truly don't see how you pick Ben when Eli has two super bowl mvps to Ben's zero, and they have the same amount of wins. Ben having one more appearance can't cancel out the mvp's Eli has. Not to mention...both of Eli's super bowl victories (especially the first one) are better than Ben's wins.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 02:46 PM
I truly don't see how you pick Ben when Eli has two super bowl mvps to Ben's zero, and they have the same amount of wins. Ben having one more appearance can't cancel out the mvp's Eli has. Not to mention...both of Eli's super bowl victories (especially the first one) are better than Ben's wins.
OK..this has nothing to do with Eli...
...but Ben's performance in SB 43 was one of the best performances by a QB in the SB that I have ever seen. He literally carried that team to a win. His O line was horrible and he extended play after play to win that game.
Yes he sucked in his first SB (although he was outstanding in the 3 playoff games to get there) but his performance in SB 43 was great.
And this SB MVP argument is silly. Eli definitely deserved it last year but the Giants defense was the story in SB 42. We held the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points. The SB MVP is a popularity contest. means next to nothing.
Lets not start this revisionist history folks.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 02:48 PM
He wrecked his motorcycle and wasn't wearing a helmet, then after that, pictures came out of him flipping the bird to a photographer while, get this, NOT WEARING A HELMET on his bike again.

:O NO WAAAAY!!. OH... MY...GOD. He didn't have a helmet on? AGAIN??!! what a scumbag.!! Could you imagine what would happen if he got into an accident and didnt have his helmet on?

Lol sorry i had to. WHen i read the part about him flipping someone off with his helmet off i had to laugh. Lets just jump into reality for a second here. Name 1 person in this world over the age of 10 who hasnt flipped someone the bird? Come on man. Even Eli has done it.

I could understand rape, but i dont believe he raped anyone. the story doesnt add up to me.

The way they talk and act in the media is not the same way they speak when they are around their teammates and friends. Dont be fooled. These football players are normal human beings just like everyone else.

TheAnalyst
11-01-2012, 02:49 PM
OK..this has nothing to do with Eli...
...but Ben's performance in SB 43 was one of the best performances by a QB in the SB that I have ever seen. He literally carried that team to a win. His O line was horrible and he extended play after play to win that game.
Yes he sucked in his first SB (although he was outstanding in the 3 playoff games to get there) but his performance in SB 43 was great.
And this SB MVP argument is silly. Eli definitely deserved it last year but the Giants defense was the story in SB 42. We held the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points. The SB MVP is a popularity contest. means next to nothing.
Lets not start this revisionist history folks.

And there is the truth. Eli deserved the second one, but the first MVP I still think should of went to the Dline. Or how about Tyree?

TheEnigma
11-01-2012, 02:51 PM
I keep trying to think of something deep to contribute on this discussion but the image of Eli wearing that 1930s Steelers throwback is too hilarious. Imagine how dorky that would be haha...

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 02:57 PM
:O NO WAAAAY!!. OH... MY...GOD. He didn't have a helmet on? AGAIN??!! what a scumbag.!! Could you imagine what would happen if he got into an accident and didnt have his helmet on?

Lol sorry i had to. WHen i read the part about him flipping someone off with his helmet off i had to laugh. Lets just jump into reality for a second here. Name 1 person in this world over the age of 10 who hasnt flipped someone the bird? Come on man. Even Eli has done it.

I could understand rape, but i dont believe he raped anyone. the story doesnt add up to me.

The way they talk and act in the media is not the same way they speak when they are around their teammates and friends. Dont be fooled. These football players are normal human beings just like everyone else.
Didn't you know that the first question they ask at the combine is regarding motorcycle safety?

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 02:58 PM
I keep trying to think of something deep to contribute on this discussion but the image of Eli wearing that 1930s Steelers throwback is too hilarious. Imagine how dorky that would be haha...
For the record...Morehead thinks those uni's were friggin awesome!!!!

TheAnalyst
11-01-2012, 03:08 PM
Again, Ben would not last one season as a Giant in this market. I'd bet the house on it. Franchise QBs symbolize their team and are the teams image. You think the Giants front office would be able to have an image of a accused rapist, idiot flipping the bird? And no Eli isn't that dumb. He may look goofy, but he isn't dumb.

Also, I like the uniforms too.

speedman
11-01-2012, 03:15 PM
OK..this has nothing to do with Eli...
...but Ben's performance in SB 43 was one of the best performances by a QB in the SB that I have ever seen. He literally carried that team to a win. His O line was horrible and he extended play after play to win that game.
Yes he sucked in his first SB (although he was outstanding in the 3 playoff games to get there) but his performance in SB 43 was great.
And this SB MVP argument is silly. Eli definitely deserved it last year but the Giants defense was the story in SB 42. We held the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points. The SB MVP is a popularity contest. means next to nothing.
Lets not start this revisionist history folks.You are without question the biggest Ben lover. Look at his stats in that game (very similar to Eli's stats in SB 42) and then tell us it was one of the best perfomances by a QB in the SB. You have absolutely no credibility when it come to Ben.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Again, Ben would not last one season as a Giant in this market. I'd bet the house on it. Franchise QBs symbolize their team and are the teams image. You think the Giants front office would be able to have an image of a accused rapist, idiot flipping the bird? And no Eli isn't that dumb. He may look goofy, but he isn't dumb.

Also, I like the uniforms too.

eli never flipped the bird or cussed at anyone?

I dont have anything bad to say about big ben. He was accused and not found guilty. women can be very trifling. This is the only downside of being popular. when you're well known the media and fans will do anything to nitpick and find flaws. Guys go to the bar, get drunk, and have a good time. We go to parties. we cuss. we live in america.

like i said, i can understand rape. If you believe he raped someone then i cant argue with you there. But if flipping someone off and riding his bike without a helmet all the arsenal you have, then you are nitpicking. We have all done worse

EliDaMANning
11-01-2012, 03:20 PM
Big Ben played well in exactly 1 of his 3 SB appearances. He single handedly cost them a ring against GB a couple of years ago.

How is there even a conversation on this? Eli is the clear winner based on what I just said.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 03:22 PM
You are without question the biggest Ben lover. Look at his stats in that game (very similar to Eli's stats in SB 42) and then tell us it was one of the best perfomances by a QB in the SB. You have absolutely no credibility when it come to Ben.
I have no affection for Ben. I just think he's a great player. No one has gotten personal here. But you just couldn't help yourself.

And I can't believe you are quoting stats. I have no idea what his stats were. What I do know is that he had no time to throw all day and was making great plays to extend plays. he was great that day. He completely frustrated the Zona defense. Warner had like 350 yards that day but Ben was definitley the best player on the field that day.

speedman
11-01-2012, 03:24 PM
I have no affection for Ben. I just think he's a great player. No one has gotten personal here. But you just couldn't help yourself.

And I can't believe you are quoting stats. I have no idea what his stats were. What I do know is that he had no time to throw all day and was making great plays to extend plays. he was great that day. He completely frustrated the Zona defense. Warner had like 350 yards that day but Ben was definitley the best player on the field that day.Take your Ben colored glasses off the next time you watch that game.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 03:25 PM
I have no affection for Ben. I just think he's a great player. No one has gotten personal here. But you just couldn't help yourself.

And I can't believe you are quoting stats. I have no idea what his stats were. What I do know is that he had no time to throw all day and was making great plays to extend plays. he was great that day. He completely frustrated the Zona defense. Warner had like 350 yards that day but Ben was definitley the best player on the field that day.

i dont remember what the stats were either but i remember being amazed at how he played under pressure. He definitely balled out that game

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Big Ben played well in exactly 1 of his 3 SB appearances. He single handedly cost them a ring against GB a couple of years ago.

How is there even a conversation on this? Eli is the clear winner based on what I just said.

A very reasonable argument can be made for both players.
Ben has won more, had better numbers, won more playoff games, won 2 SB's, got to a third. When Eli was looking like a high school QB in 2004, Ben was 15-1.
I'm not making an argument for either. I'm saying that its very close. Ben started off way ahead and Eli has closed the gap to where either player can have a great case made for them.

To be shocked that someone chooses one over the other is silly.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Big Ben played well in exactly 1 of his 3 SB appearances. He single handedly cost them a ring against GB a couple of years ago.

How is there even a conversation on this? Eli is the clear winner based on what I just said.

that mendinghall fumble is what turned the game around in my opinion. but ben did have a bad game vs GB thats for sure

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 03:28 PM
Take your Ben colored glasses off the next time you watch that game.
Well I think my QB is just as good. Are you saying I have rose colored glasses for Eli too?

TheEnigma
11-01-2012, 03:30 PM
Could Big Ben effectively run the Gilbride option route system is the main question I would be pondering. The whole "He wouldn't survive New York!" theory is just complete conjecture. He might of never even found himself in that accused rape situation if he was a New York Giant. We really don't know either way.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 03:31 PM
that mendinghall fumble is what turned the game around in my opinion. but ben did have a bad game vs GB thats for sure
I just don't get these guys who feel they need to trash someone else in order to prop their guy up. Makes no sense. Don't they understand that when they say the other guy sucks, it knocks down our guy.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 03:45 PM
I just don't get these guys who feel they need to trash someone else in order to prop their guy up. Makes no sense. Don't they understand that when they say the other guy sucks, it knocks down our guy.

Im just not biased about anything. I think Eli is better but i know that they're both great qb's

speedman
11-01-2012, 03:46 PM
I just don't get these guys who feel they need to trash someone else in order to prop their guy up. Makes no sense. Don't they understand that when they say the other guy sucks, it knocks down our guy.The only one propping anyone up is you. It's your comment about one of the best performances by a QB in the SB that is maddening.

JayMas9
11-01-2012, 03:57 PM
OK..this has nothing to do with Eli...
...but Ben's performance in SB 43 was one of the best performances by a QB in the SB that I have ever seen. He literally carried that team to a win. His O line was horrible and he extended play after play to win that game.
Yes he sucked in his first SB (although he was outstanding in the 3 playoff games to get there) but his performance in SB 43 was great.
And this SB MVP argument is silly. Eli definitely deserved it last year but the Giants defense was the story in SB 42. We held the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points. The SB MVP is a popularity contest. means next to nothing.
Lets not start this revisionist history folks.I should clarify, none of what I'm saying is a knock on Ben, and I agree he played lights out in SB 43. But Eli played very well in SB 42, his only int went right off Steve Smith's hands, and he led 2 scoring drives in the 4th quarter to take the lead when it counted. The MVP is not always a popularity contest either. Also it's more about the quality of the competition that Eli beat, I thin both those Pats teams were better than the teams Ben beat, and he played terrible in his first SB. I get that a lot of people get defensive and ridiculous when discussing this, but I'm only using what I believe to be pretty sound logic. Not to mention Eli is definitely the most clutch QB in football.

Ben's a great player no doubt, but I'll take Eli every day based on some pretty sound things.

Marvelousmik
11-01-2012, 03:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaGXjRaYego

even peyton can get a little out of hand at times.

EliDaMANning
11-01-2012, 04:10 PM
A very reasonable argument can be made for both players.
Ben has won more, had better numbers, won more playoff games, won 2 SB's, got to a third. When Eli was looking like a high school QB in 2004, Ben was 15-1.
I'm not making an argument for either. I'm saying that its very close. Ben started off way ahead and Eli has closed the gap to where either player can have a great case made for them.

To be shocked that someone chooses one over the other is silly.Has won more what? They both have 2 SB. Eli has 2 more SB MVP than this overrated clown.

Ben was 15-1? No the Steelers were 15-1. Ben made a living from handing off the football and letting his defense win games. He was a Trent Dilfer that year and got exposed by the Pats who effectively made him look like a rookie.

Ben has no business being in this discussion. Has he come close to winning a ring with no running game and the worst defense in the league? Nope.

BParcells777
11-01-2012, 04:16 PM
There is no debate- Eli is Elite, Ben is better than average

end of story

GameTime
11-01-2012, 04:57 PM
Eli to SB wins and two SB MVPs
Ben 3 SBs and two wins....

Eli is better with a different skill set.
Ben can certainly tear up the Giants through the air. He has the talent.

I lke them both but I think Eli is better overall...

Delicreep
11-01-2012, 06:05 PM
OK..this has nothing to do with Eli...
...but Ben's performance in SB 43 was one of the best performances by a QB in the SB that I have ever seen. He literally carried that team to a win. His O line was horrible and he extended play after play to win that game.
Yes he sucked in his first SB (although he was outstanding in the 3 playoff games to get there) but his performance in SB 43 was great.
And this SB MVP argument is silly. Eli definitely deserved it last year but the Giants defense was the story in SB 42. We held the highest scoring offense in NFL history to 14 points. The SB MVP is a popularity contest. means next to nothing.
Lets not start this revisionist history folks.

I am going to just throw this out there...2 times Eli has had to run the hurry up in the last few minutes of the SB and looked nothing but completely in control.

I was shocked at how disorganized the Steelers looked against the Pack with 2+ minutes to go and how out of control Ben in particular looked.

It surely wasn't just Ben, but it was horrible, from top to bottom. What was the most shocking part of it to me was the inability to get the play set after an incomplete pass!!! No excuse.

3rd and 5 and you go deep? Seriously...against the stout Packer D you don't throw a screen? You don't run? They had a ton of time and acted like they had 20 seconds.

It was awful.

OK, OK...I had the Steeler's in a rare SB bet. Damn Packers.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 06:43 PM
I am going to just throw this out there...2 times Eli has had to run the hurry up in the last few minutes of the SB and looked nothing but completely in control.

I was shocked at how disorganized the Steelers looked against the Pack with 2+ minutes to go and how out of control Ben in particular looked.

It surely wasn't just Ben, but it was horrible, from top to bottom. What was the most shocking part of it to me was the inability to get the play set after an incomplete pass!!! No excuse.

3rd and 5 and you go deep? Seriously...against the stout Packer D you don't throw a screen? You don't run? They had a ton of time and acted like they had 20 seconds.

It was awful.

OK, OK...I had the Steeler's in a rare SB bet. Damn Packers.
Now tell me about the final drive in SB 43 my friend.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 06:45 PM
The only one propping anyone up is you. It's your comment about one of the best performances by a QB in the SB that is maddening.
Too bad you missed that game. It was a barn burner.
I say this because there is no way you could have watched that game and not know how well Ben played.

I do like your choice of the word "maddening" though. So that's one for you. Misguided of course, but original nontheless.

Harooni
11-01-2012, 06:47 PM
Big ben shredded the skins and plays well the first half of games to maintain a lead. less tums needed if he was our qb.

eli is less injury prone and a beast at 2 min drills.

both good.

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 06:59 PM
They're about equal when it comes to playing ability. This year is no different. The only difference is we wouldn't have had to give up picks for Ben and he played better at an earlier stage of his career so we would have locked him up earlier, thus spent less money on that position and would have had a better chance of having a better team.

That said, we won two SBs with Eli, just because we could have been a better team with Ben and all the other players that came along with him doesn't mean we would have won even one super bowl.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 07:01 PM
They're about equal when it comes to playing ability. This year is no different. The only difference is we wouldn't have had to give up picks for Ben and he played better at an earlier stage of his career so we would have locked him up earlier, this spent less money on that position and would have had a better chance of having a better team.

that said, we won twoSBs with Eli, just because we could have been a better team with Ben and all the other players that came along with hook doesn't mean we would have won even one super bowl.
Have you finally sobered up from your WS victory?

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 07:03 PM
Have you finally sobered up from your WS victory?You can't tell by all the typos in that post, but yes.

GMENAGAIN
11-01-2012, 07:11 PM
I wouldn't trade our guy for Ben, and I'm sure that the Steeler fans wouldn't trade their guy for Eli . . . ..

Moke
11-01-2012, 07:17 PM
This is a job for the N"if"L.....

Both are great QB's. Their excellent leaders of their teams, they throw the ball well, read defensive schemes quickly and are pretty tough hombre's.

The one thing that Eli stands out most over Ben is that he's clutch. 2 minutes left in the game and my team needs a TD to win I can't think of any QB in the league right now who I'd rather have the ball than Eli.

What? Why is it the job of the NFL? Are you saying we can't post threads like this because it's the job of the NFL to talk about this stuff?

I guess sucking each Giants' player's testicles are what we should be doing.

Superbowl
11-01-2012, 08:09 PM
At this point. I will take Easy E over Big Ben and any QB.

JJC7301
11-01-2012, 08:13 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/57999/let-the-debate-begin-eli-or-big-ben



There's also a couple polls here: http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/polls?pCat=46&sCat=3335

the one i had to think about most was: "Which team would go the farthest this season if they switched quarterbacks? Giants with Ben Roethlisberger or Steelers with Eli Manning?"
Both are top tier QBs and they're both proven winners who ALWAYS put their teams in positions to win. Both have their own strengths, but I'm glad that we have Eli. He's perfect for NY.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 08:13 PM
You can't tell by all the typos in that post, but yes.
So you have champs in 2 different sports. Good for you. Can't match the "Morehead Trifecta" though when I had the Giants, Red Sox and Celtics as champs, all at once.

dsd28
11-01-2012, 08:15 PM
What? Why is it the job of the NFL? Are you saying we can't post threads like this because it's the job of the NFL to talk about this stuff?

he is talking about the "N if L" videos: http://www.nfl.com/videos/n-if-l

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 08:16 PM
Both are top tier QBs and they're both proven winners who ALWAYS put their teams in positions to win. Both have their own strengths, but I'm glad that we have Eli. He's perfect for NY.
OK...I'm calling you on this. What exactly is "perfect for NY".
To me Phil Simms was perfect for NY. Joe Namath was perfect for NY.
You know whats "perfect for NY"?.......Winning.

And both guys do that.

CowboysSuck
11-01-2012, 08:18 PM
At least Eli didnt almost kill himself on a street bike, this i know for certain

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 08:22 PM
At least Eli didnt almost kill himself on a street bike, this i know for certain
Yes but he may have pulled a muscle carrying that little bucket on the beach.
http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/eli-manningbeach.jpg

GiantRoc
11-01-2012, 09:05 PM
I have never been a fan of Rapistburger. I don't think he is any where near the caliber QB that Eli is. He may be bigger and stronger, but please don't go any further. Rapistburger gets beat up because he can't make up his mind what to do with the ball fast enough. HE is the one who makes his O-lone look worse than it is. The O he runs is no where near as complicated as the Giant's. His rookie superbowl year, he basically handed the ball off and watched his D crush teams. They played the Seattle Seasicks for crying out loud. The second win was against the Cards. A true powerhouse. Eli could succeed in Pitt. I don't see the reverse being true.

Delicreep
11-01-2012, 09:39 PM
Now tell me about the final drive in SB 43 my friend.

It was fantastic. I have actually argued that the TD pass was better than the helmet catch in some ways.

Now...are you saying you would take a guy who had one great clutch drive and one complete failure* over a guy who has two great clutch drives?

My point was not that Ben NEVER has been clutch, but that Eli's SB performances pretty much define clutch.


*and one abomination on top of that.

Abby Manning
11-01-2012, 09:48 PM
OH BOY HERE WE GO AGAIN FOR THE 50TH TIME!

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 11:02 PM
It was fantastic. I have actually argued that the TD pass was better than the helmet catch in some ways.

Now...are you saying you would take a guy who had one great clutch drive and one complete failure* over a guy who has two great clutch drives?

My point was not that Ben NEVER has been clutch, but that Eli's SB performances pretty much define clutch.


*and one abomination on top of that.
I did not say that at all. What I have been saying and will say again is that a good case can be made for each player.
In other words...its close. No one is "crazy" or "stupid" for suggesting one is better than the other.

bashful
11-01-2012, 11:09 PM
I get sick of these rankings who is 1, 2, 5, etc. Jarowski is an idiot and I really ignore anything out of his mouth. However, numbers mean nothing both Ben and Eli are great for the teams they play for, personally I prefer Eli but I am a giant fan. Forget the QB rankings believe in your QB and lets hope for a great game where the giants come out victorious.

joemorrisforprez
11-01-2012, 11:20 PM
Terry Bradshaw hates his guts.....that tells me something.

Good article on what a ****** bag Roethlisberger is....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1169185/index.htm

joemorrisforprez
11-01-2012, 11:26 PM
I have never been a fan of Rapistburger. I don't think he is any where near the caliber QB that Eli is. He may be bigger and stronger, but please don't go any further. Rapistburger gets beat up because he can't make up his mind what to do with the ball fast enough. HE is the one who makes his O-lone look worse than it is. The O he runs is no where near as complicated as the Giant's. His rookie superbowl year, he basically handed the ball off and watched his D crush teams. They played the Seattle Seasicks for crying out loud. The second win was against the Cards. A true powerhouse. Eli could succeed in Pitt. I don't see the reverse being true.

Agreed.....no way in hell could Roethlisberger beat either of the Patriot teams that Eli beat to win his SB's.

The Steeler beat the Seahawks IN SPITE of Rothlisberger.

And as for the Steelers v. Cards....... the Giants beat the Cards and Steelers that year....if not for for Plaxico destroying the team, Eli would have 3 Rings, and Ben would have only 1.

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 11:27 PM
Terry Bradshaw hates his guts.....that tells me something.Good article on what a ****** bag Roethlisberger is....http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1169185/index.htmwhat happens on the field is all that matters. Unless you hate LT too?

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 11:29 PM
Agreed.....no way in hell could Roethlisberger beat either of the Patriot teams that Eli beat to win his SB's.The Steeler beat the Seahawks IN SPITE of Rothlisberger.And as for the Steelers v. Cards....... the Giants beat the Cards and Steelers that year....if not for for Plaxico destroying the team, Eli would have 3 Rings, and Ben would have only 1.So you're saying Eli couldn't win without plax that year? Interesting. The real downfall of that season was the injuries and braking down of our DL. Our defense and run game won us games in 08. Not Eli and plax

joemorrisforprez
11-01-2012, 11:31 PM
what happens on the field is all that matters. Unless you hate LT too?

I'm not going to excuse LT's conduct. Conversely, LT's off the field conduct doesn't excuse Roethlisberger's.

As far as off the field conduct, Ben forces himself of women....LT pays for it.

As far as on the field.....LT was arguably the best defensive player in NFL history. Nobody would ever saw Ben was the best offensive player ever. Come on.

But anyway, this topic is Eli and Ben..... LT doesn't factor into this.

joemorrisforprez
11-01-2012, 11:32 PM
So you're saying Eli couldn't win without plax that year? Interesting. The real downfall of that season was the injuries and braking down of our DL. Our defense and run game won us games in 08. Not Eli and plax

No....Plax shooting himself completely destroyed the chemistry of the team

There were other reasons as well. But if someone asked me which player was the most responsible for the 2008 team falling short, I'd say Plaxico.

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 11:36 PM
No....Plax shooting himself completely destroyed the chemistry of the team There were other reasons as well. But if someone asked me which player was the most responsible for the 2008 team falling short, I'd say Plaxico.And Jerry Reese would tell you the DL, which is why he gave Bernard and canty big contracts that following offseason. I'm gonna go with Jerry in this one and say you're wrong

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 11:40 PM
Please, don't compare LT to Roethlisberger. For one thing, LT would have fractured Ben's jaw if they were both on the same team, because Ben is a ******. For another thing, Ben forces himself of women....LT pays for it.And finally.....LT was arguably the best defensive player in NFL history. Nobody would ever saw Ben was the best offensive player ever. Come on. Actually if LT was on ben's team right now he'd probably be suspended indefinitely for substance abuse. But that's besides the point. LT was convicted, Ben wasn't. Regardless, what happens off the field doesn't mean ****. I watch these guys when they're playing ball, not when they're getting wasted and banging out chicks. why anyone cares what happens off the field is beyond me.

joemorrisforprez
11-01-2012, 11:42 PM
And Jerry Reese would tell you the DL, which is why he gave Bernard and canty big contracts that following offseason. I'm gonna go with Jerry in this one and say you're wrong

You can believe whatever you want. In my opinion, Plaxico disrupted team cohesion, not to mention Eli lost his most important offensive weapon.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the following draft, Reese picked Hakeem Nicks and Ramses Barden.

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 11:46 PM
You can believe whatever you want. In my opinion, Plaxico disrupted team cohesion, not to mention Eli lost his most important offensive weapon.elis most important weapons were, Jacobs Bradshaw and ward. Plaxico wasnt missed in the, Seahawks game nor the steelers game that year.

BillTheGreek
11-01-2012, 11:47 PM
Ben and Eli have a very similar record. Both have won 2 SB's. Stats are somewhat similar.
They are on the same level. Both are outstanding with their own strengths.
Ben seems to have the edge in most measurables.
Stats, win/loss etc. But Eli wears blue.

Sorry >>>> heres some facts
Eli is smarter than Ben.....
Ben Not to smart, to ride a Bike with no Helmet !
BEN Stated : He suffered a broken jaw and nose and underwent seven hours of surgery. "If I ever ride again," he said afterward, "it certainly will be with a helmet."
================================================== ======
Eli has more talent
Eli has 2 Super Bowl MVP's Ben has none
================================================== =======
Eli does not panic under pressure
Watch Eli 's come backs in the 4th Qt.
================================================== ========
=====================================
Ben's a better runner than Eli True
Ben's Bigger & Tougher True
Ben has less control..............when he rides a Bike !

joemorrisforprez
11-01-2012, 11:48 PM
elis most important weapons were, Jacobs Bradshaw and ward. Plaxico wasnt missed in the, Seahawks game nor the steelers game that year.

See my edited post.....Reese picked up Hakeem Nicks and Ramses Barden the following draft....I don't think that was just coincidence.

Morehead State
11-01-2012, 11:56 PM
See my edited post.....Reese picked up Hakeem Nicks and Ramses Barden the following draft....I don't think that was just coincidence.
Plaxico was having a poor season. We were 3-0 in games without Plaxico when he left the team. (I'm counting at Zona where he plays one play for a 4 yard gain and left the game)
If the team's "chemistry" could be shaken so much (and it wasn't) then it wasn't a very good team to start with, and its QB and team leader couldn't have been much of a leader. (which wasn't true)

Imgrate
11-01-2012, 11:57 PM
See my edited post.....Reese picked up Hakeem Nicks and Ramses Barden the following draft....I don't think that was just coincidence. probably because we lost our top two wrs that offseason... plaxico didn't do **** all year in 08. The run game and dl, however, did alot.

Morehead State
11-02-2012, 12:00 AM
See my edited post.....Reese picked up Hakeem Nicks and Ramses Barden the following draft....I don't think that was just coincidence.
Because our 2 top WR's were no longer on the team. I think that should be obvious.

byron
11-02-2012, 12:34 AM
Eli is Eli and wears blue...Ben is.. well you know "that guy"

giantsfan420
11-02-2012, 12:37 AM
Plaxico was having a poor season. We were 3-0 in games without Plaxico when he left the team. (I'm counting at Zona where he plays one play for a 4 yard gain and left the game)
If the team's "chemistry" could be shaken so much (and it wasn't) then it wasn't a very good team to start with, and its QB and team leader couldn't have been much of a leader. (which wasn't true)

Oh, so u saying ap lying for him and having to testify against a teammate didnt disrupt things? Wasnt there also another player there?
and it was plexs worst season true. Teams still had to account for him with a safety over the topm which is what opened up our run game those yrs we were so dominant running was in large part to the attn plex warranted.
I could go on and on, but im just gonna enjoy ur collasal fail of a post bc its not often ur this blatantly wrong

Antwuan
11-02-2012, 01:55 AM
Eli Manning!

Morehead State
11-02-2012, 08:34 AM
Oh, so u saying ap lying for him and having to testify against a teammate didnt disrupt things? Wasnt there also another player there?
and it was plexs worst season true. Teams still had to account for him with a safety over the topm which is what opened up our run game those yrs we were so dominant running was in large part to the attn plex warranted.
I could go on and on, but im just gonna enjoy ur collasal fail of a post bc its not often ur this blatantly wrong
What I'm saying is that it didn't cost us the season. We put 40+ on Seattle without Plaxico, 39 against Zona without Plaxico. and killed Washington right after the incident without Plaxico. (Hixon had 100 yards in the first half as I remember). Did the loss of Plaxico hurt us? Of course, just like an injury would. But using this as some kind of excuse for the collapse of our season isn't very "Giant-like".
Our thin D line was a much larger factor in our collapse.
But the premise of this particular argument is that someone actually suggested that Plaxico somehow cost Eli another SB. I would submit that Plaxico contributed significantly to our winning one in 07.

bigblue58
11-02-2012, 09:11 AM
What I'm saying is that it didn't cost us the season. We put 40+ on Seattle without Plaxico, 39 against Zona without Plaxico. and killed Washington right after the incident without Plaxico. (Hixon had 100 yards in the first half as I remember). Did the loss of Plaxico hurt us? Of course, just like an injury would. But using this as some kind of excuse for the collapse of our season isn't very "Giant-like".
Our thin D line was a much larger factor in our collapse.
But the premise of this particular argument is that someone actually suggested that Plaxico somehow cost Eli another SB. I would submit that Plaxico contributed significantly to our winning one in 07.


Agreed!
People seem to forget ,that after Plax signed his new post SB42 contract, he hadn't really been contributing much on the field leading up to shooting himself!
Plenty of "Plax got his money now he's dogging it" threads on here from what I remember.
The saddest part of being one and done in 08, was knowing that we would have wiped the floor with Pittsburgh in the SB!
We lost that game to the Egirls because the Giants decided to lay their only egg of that dominant season in the playoffs. Everyone sucked that day from Eli on down.

Imgrate
11-02-2012, 09:31 AM
What I'm saying is that it didn't cost us the season. We put 40+ on Seattle without Plaxico, 39 against Zona without Plaxico. and killed Washington right after the incident without Plaxico. (Hixon had 100 yards in the first half as I remember). Did the loss of Plaxico hurt us? Of course, just like an injury would. But using this as some kind of excuse for the collapse of our season isn't very "Giant-like".Our thin D line was a much larger factor in our collapse.But the premise of this particular argument is that someone actually suggested that Plaxico somehow cost Eli another SB. I would submit that Plaxico contributed significantly to our winning one in 07.Don't forget that plax was benched for a half against the steelers.,(we won that game too)

GMENAGAIN
11-02-2012, 09:34 AM
Terry Bradshaw hates his guts.....that tells me something.

Good article on what a ****** bag Roethlisberger is....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1169185/index.htm

Jerks like that just don't suddenly become nice guys . . . . he just stays under the radar now . . . . .

Rudyy
11-02-2012, 10:29 AM
I think the thing with Plax was that the situation brought so much negative attention to the team and it affected our performance.

Morehead State
11-02-2012, 10:30 AM
I think the thing with Plax was that the situation brought so much negative attention to the team and it affected our performance.
Was the team really that delicate?
If so, we weren't a championship team.

giantsfan420
11-02-2012, 10:36 AM
What I'm saying is that it didn't cost us the season. We put 40+ on Seattle without Plaxico, 39 against Zona without Plaxico. and killed Washington right after the incident without Plaxico. (Hixon had 100 yards in the first half as I remember). Did the loss of Plaxico hurt us? Of course, just like an injury would. But using this as some kind of excuse for the collapse of our season isn't very "Giant-like".
Our thin D line was a much larger factor in our collapse.
But the premise of this particular argument is that someone actually suggested that Plaxico somehow cost Eli another SB. I would submit that Plaxico contributed significantly to our winning one in 07.
i agree with thiswhole alot more than "it didnt effect the team chemistry"...we all know the reasons why thats an untrue statement. But using it as a sole reason we failed that season is a bunch a bull tho. Altho a point u made was salient...we werent champs that yr, in part, bc we couldnt overcome the hudrles of plex, the dl, etc, and a team shouldnt win it all if they cant overcome those things...but the plax incident 100%effected the team, for me the biggest thing was not even plax but ap and how that whole situation was sjch an enormous distraction

giantsfan420
11-02-2012, 10:39 AM
And i hope people arent trying to say losing llax was no big deal...teams HAD to keep a safety over the top. HAD to bc he really couldnt be covered one on one historically to that point. Our run game was so effective with plax. When he ****ed up, our run game disappeared...and regardless of him having a poor stat season, forcing defenses to do that is worth its weight in gold

Rudyy
11-02-2012, 10:41 AM
Was the team really that delicate?
If so, we weren't a championship team. I have no idea, that sucked the life out of the freaking team. So maybe.

Morehead State
11-02-2012, 11:24 AM
i agree with thiswhole alot more than "it didnt effect the team chemistry"...we all know the reasons why thats an untrue statement. But using it as a sole reason we failed that season is a bunch a bull tho. Altho a point u made was salient...we werent champs that yr, in part, bc we couldnt overcome the hudrles of plex, the dl, etc, and a team shouldnt win it all if they cant overcome those things...but the plax incident 100%effected the team, for me the biggest thing was not even plax but ap and how that whole situation was sjch an enormous distraction
So the loss of Plaxico prevented Antonio Pierce from being able to cover Brian Westbrook?
Wow!....we really weren't a very strong team...were we?

giantsfan420
11-02-2012, 12:14 PM
So the loss of Plaxico prevented Antonio Pierce from being able to cover Brian Westbrook?
Wow!....we really weren't a very strong team...were we?
i didnt mean in that sense, more along the lines that the whole will he wont he testify, will he wont he face jail time...that not only distracted ap but i feel the entire d as ap was a leader, and that d were so close almost like brothers, it wasnt just ap on that d worrying about ap...ap never covered westbrook well even when we won the sb in 07. I dunno what it is but im loving this thread, ur making it awfully easy...
are u seriously trying to say it didnt effect them? And we WERENT a sb team that yr obviously, so why would u imply that the ordeal couldnt have really messed up the teams chemistry, its like ur saying it couldnt have been an issue bc we were champs or something...ur stance on this topic has just been confusing and off base imho

Morehead State
11-02-2012, 12:46 PM
i didnt mean in that sense, more along the lines that the whole will he wont he testify, will he wont he face jail time...that not only distracted ap but i feel the entire d as ap was a leader, and that d were so close almost like brothers, it wasnt just ap on that d worrying about ap...ap never covered westbrook well even when we won the sb in 07. I dunno what it is but im loving this thread, ur making it awfully easy...
are u seriously trying to say it didnt effect them? And we WERENT a sb team that yr obviously, so why would u imply that the ordeal couldnt have really messed up the teams chemistry, its like ur saying it couldnt have been an issue bc we were champs or something...ur stance on this topic has just been confusing and off base imho
Well then let me clarify.
Our team had too many flaws outside of the Plaxico loss to win a championship. Our defense wasn't playing well at all down the stretch. Our thin D line was exposed late in the season. And quite honestly, our QB didn't play well down the stretch including a poor performance in the playoffs.

So my point? Our team, while effected by the loss of a starting WR (who was underperforming and had been suspended once already), wasn't good enough to win a championship. I have always hated this "Plaxico shooting himself cost us a championship" nonsense. Its a bull**** excuse that doesn't wash.

Marvelousmik
11-02-2012, 01:29 PM
Well then let me clarify.
Our team had too many flaws outside of the Plaxico loss to win a championship. Our defense wasn't playing well at all down the stretch. Our thin D line was exposed late in the season. And quite honestly, our QB didn't play well down the stretch including a poor performance in the playoffs.

So my point? Our team, while effected by the loss of a starting WR (who was underperforming and had been suspended once already), wasn't good enough to win a championship. I have always hated this "Plaxico shooting himself cost us a championship" nonsense. Its a bull**** excuse that doesn't wash.

if plax didnt shoot himself i highly doubt we would have gotten knocked out in our first game of the playoffs. we were the best team in football and we would have probably made it to the superbowl again. (with plax). losing him was huge. If i remember correctly we beat both the steelers and cardinals that year.

Imgrate
11-02-2012, 01:53 PM
if plax didnt shoot himself i highly doubt we would have gotten knocked out in our first game of the playoffs. we were the best team in football and we would have probably made it to the superbowl again. (with plax). losing him was huge. If i remember correctly we beat both the steelers and cardinals that year.without plax

giantsfan420
11-02-2012, 01:54 PM
Marv, we beat the final four teams left in the playoffs that yr. We were easil the best team until week 11, for whatvevr reason, most imo correctly identify plax as a huge but not sole reason. Plex was kinda like canty that yr in that he wasnt putting up the stats that showed how important to the scheme he was. Iirc and i do, even kg said the same thing repeatedly ...plex was huge not just the pass game but run game as well.

Imgrate
11-02-2012, 01:56 PM
Marv, we beat the final four teams left in the playoffs that yr. We were easil the best team until week 11, for whatvevr reason, most imo correctly identify plax as a huge but not sole reason. Plex was kinda like canty that yr in that he wasnt putting up the stats that showed how important to the scheme he was. Iirc and i do, even kg said the same thing repeatedly ...plex was huge not just the pass game but run game as well.Canty was a cowboy that year. We beat the panthers after plax's injury, the eventual 2 seed in the nfc

Morehead State
11-02-2012, 02:23 PM
Canty was a cowboy that year. We beat the panthers after plax's injury, the eventual 2 seed in the nfc
No one is a bigger fan of Plaxico than me. He went to MSU with my daughter. I followed his career there, at Pitt and was thrilled to have him here.
But there is no way he was the superstar that you guys are making him out to be. He was a nice option for Eli but our offense didn't revolve around him like you are suggesting.
The fact is that we had explosive offensive games without him. Seattle, Arizona and Carolina come to mind right away. he was a malcontent all season and was underproducing.
Lets stop this revisionist history here folks. the kid could play but he wasn't the center of our offensive universe. We had big time problems on defense that showed themselves near the end of the season.

nycsportzfan
11-02-2012, 08:01 PM
I honestly don't feel its close right now.. ELI is the best QB in the NFL right now, in my opinion.. I'd take em over Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees.. I'm not biased either, thats just how i truly feel..

nycsportzfan
11-02-2012, 08:04 PM
No one is a bigger fan of Plaxico than me. He went to MSU with my daughter. I followed his career there, at Pitt and was thrilled to have him here.
But there is no way he was the superstar that you guys are making him out to be. He was a nice option for Eli but our offense didn't revolve around him like you are suggesting.
The fact is that we had explosive offensive games without him. Seattle, Arizona and Carolina come to mind right away. he was a malcontent all season and was underproducing.
Lets stop this revisionist history here folks. the kid could play but he wasn't the center of our offensive universe. We had big time problems on defense that showed themselves near the end of the season. Domenik Hixon had some crucial drops in the Playoff game where we only scored 11points, and our offense certainly bogged down without plax, despite the fact that he was having a underperforming season to that point.. He still was a big diffrence maker and it showed when we didn't have em.. Domenik Hixon is litteraly half the player he was.. Also, having plax freed up other players, which never happened with Hixon as a starter..

Sarcasman
11-02-2012, 08:36 PM
Hmm, I wouldn't say both Eli and Ben are elite. Elite is Brady, Payton, Aaron and probably Brees. Then there is Eli and Ben, who are just below elite but above everyone else. The group below those two include Ryan, Schaub, Rivers, Romo, etc. If Eli gets one more ring, that will be his ticket to the elite level IMO.

But out of those two choices, I would have to go with Eli. I really can't stand Big Ben and think he is very overrated. He is lucky his teams have had a good defense.


Elite is not an objective designation; it's the name of a subjective opinion.

Parademon
11-02-2012, 11:11 PM
Don't care what you say Morehead. Plax's idiotic shooting, even if he wasn't contributing much offensively that yr, hurt our team going down the stretch as opposing teams defenses didn't have to worry so much about our passing game & could stack the box & force us to beat em with our core of no name recievers. Safeties had to account for Plax all game, even if he was just a decoy on most plays. That freed up the running game & also other WRs to be one on one with the other DBs. To say his shooting incident wasn't the main reason the Giants got distracted in Dec & offensively couldn't move the ball Efficiently in the loss to Philly, is total BS! The Giants were rolling at 11-1 & seemed unstoppable, then as soon as Plax the idiot shot himself, you could sense a change in the team. His case became a distraction & AP & whoever else was involved, ended up causing uneccessary drama in the locker room.

giantsfan420
11-02-2012, 11:38 PM
This^

Marvelousmik
11-03-2012, 01:16 AM
i still think plax was our best outside receiver. there was a certain confidence i couldnt help but feel going into games knowing that he was on our offense.