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View Full Version : How do you know it is the plays or the players?



Diamondring
11-09-2012, 10:19 AM
When the offense or defense fail or succeed, how do you know it is cause of the play or the players?

Marvelousmik
11-09-2012, 10:21 AM
good question. im interested in hearing the answers. one thing is for sure though. when players are dropping passes its not the plays

GameTime
11-09-2012, 10:22 AM
pretty simple......at the end of the day its both......

Rudyy
11-09-2012, 10:24 AM
I don't think anybody besides the coaches and players know 100%. I go by what I see.

I think it's both.
It's weird how we were so explosive in the beginning of the season...and then we get this huge drop of production. So did everyone just start sucking all together? I don't believe that.

What I think it is, is the lack of adjustments being made on the offensive side of the ball. Teams know they have to double Nicks and Cruz and we have ZERO gameplan once that's done.

Our receivers need to learn how to play physical, especially Cruz. Players are going to be tripling you up, and bumping you at the line. Nobody is going to let you get those 70 yard bombs anymore. Learn to play physical.

Eli CANNOT revert to throwing into triple coverage anymore and expect Cruz to take it to the house for 50 yards. This is not 2011. Nicks also isn't 100% as well. We cannot depend on our receivers to make miraculous plays. We need to switch things up.

Last but not least, our run game needs to play better. I love Bradshaw but the dancing around isn't getting us yardage. If he's injured, he needs to rest. I don't care how passionate he is. Andre Brown has proven to be effective.

Players AND coaches need to adjust.

Morehead State
11-09-2012, 10:31 AM
The plays are what they are. the geometry and physics of the plays don't change. You can argue that the "right" plays aren't being called but Eli has the flexibility and responsibilty to read defenses and adjust the play call. that's what makes our offense so dynamic. Its also the responsibility of the WR's to make the sight adjustments in their routes.
So its hard to blame the "play" for the failure of the offense to execute it. Ultimately its the players who have to make the play work. And in our offense, they are given the ability to do so.
Is there an occasional clunker of a play that has no chance to work given a defense? I guess so. But the QB has to get out of that play when it happens.

I'm not buying the "its both" argument. The scheme works. It hasn't changed. A player's ability to execute is the real variable here.

RoanokeFan
11-09-2012, 10:50 AM
The plays are what they are. the geometry and physics of the plays don't change. You can argue that the "right" plays aren't being called but Eli has the flexibility and responsibilty to read defenses and adjust the play call. that's what makes our offense so dynamic. Its also the responsibility of the WR's to make the sight adjustments in their routes.
So its hard to blame the "play" for the failure of the offense to execute it. Ultimately its the players who have to make the play work. And in our offense, they are given the ability to do so.
Is there an occasional clunker of a play that has no chance to work given a defense? I guess so. But the QB has to get out of that play when it happens.

I'm not buying the "its both" argument. The scheme works. It hasn't changed. A player's ability to execute is the real variable here.

I think there are plays that, in retrospect, were wrong for the situation. But, as you say, Eli has the job of reading the defense and it's ultimately his call. Making it Eli's call shows the amount of confidence they have in him to make the right call most of the time. The pass to Barden that resulted in offensive pass interference is an example of we could have made a better call. Still, had that pass been thrown better OR had Barden not been flagged, we would have still been in field goal range.

Plays are called and players need to execute those plays.

EnragedYouth85
11-09-2012, 10:56 AM
I just feel it's more the execution of those plays. Like everyone is saying, the plays are called and then the offense makes adjustments at the line of scrimmage. It seems they have been doing that lately but the QB/WR are not on the same page. It seems the WR is seeing one thing but the QB is seeing another. I can remember a few plays last game where Eli threw the ball to where he thought the WR would be and the WR ended up not being there. Who made the wrong call? I don't know but its clear the offense is out of sync. Ultimately Eli and the WR's need to sit down, go over film and get on the same page on what they are going to do in any given situation.

Morehead State
11-09-2012, 11:00 AM
I think there are plays that, in retrospect, were wrong for the situation. But, as you say, Eli has the job of reading the defense and it's ultimately his call. Making it Eli's call shows the amount of confidence they have in him to make the right call most of the time. The pass to Barden that resulted in offensive pass interference is an example of we could have made a better call. Still, had that pass been thrown better OR had Barden not been flagged, we would have still been in field goal range.

Plays are called and players need to execute those plays.

One of the problems I have with Eli is that he seems to be programmed to see a matchup and exploit it, despite the down, distance, score and other conditions in the game. That throw to Barden was one case. Thats not the play we needed there. we needed to get the ball inside the 20 and win the game with a FG. The throw to Randall last week is another example. Plus a play a game or so ago to Nicks (I beleive) down the right sidelines. On first and ten in the third quarter, its a good play to exploit a matchup you like. On third and short late in the game, we need to get a first down.
So Eli is trained to read the defense and make his calls at the LOS accordingly. But he seems to forget the imminent need of the football team in that situation.

RoanokeFan
11-09-2012, 11:02 AM
One of the problems I have with Eli is that he seems to be programmed to see a matchup and exploit it, despite the down, distance, score and other conditions in the game. That throw to Barden was one case. Thats not the play we needed there. we needed to get the ball inside the 20 and win the game with a FG. The throw to Randall last week is another example. Plus a play a game or so ago to Nicks (I beleive) down the right sidelines. On first and ten in the third quarter, its a good play to exploit a matchup you like. On third and short late in the game, we need to get a first down.
So Eli is trained to read the defense and make his calls at the LOS accordingly. But he seems to forget the imminent need of the football team in that situation.

Yeah, I am saying all game long "just get the first down" I have no problem with the BIG SPLASH plays but sustaining drives is far more important and it's where we have so much trouble.

Rudyy
11-09-2012, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I am saying all game long "just get the first down" I have no problem with the BIG SPLASH plays but sustaining drives is far more important and it's where we have so much trouble.That's what annoys me. What happened to picking up the easy 10 yards? We've been so accustomed to those huge plays, and it's not working anymore.

Dwinsballgames
11-09-2012, 11:14 AM
One of the problems I have with Eli is that he seems to be programmed to see a matchup and exploit it, despite the down, distance, score and other conditions in the game. That throw to Barden was one case. Thats not the play we needed there. we needed to get the ball inside the 20 and win the game with a FG. The throw to Randall last week is another example. Plus a play a game or so ago to Nicks (I beleive) down the right sidelines. On first and ten in the third quarter, its a good play to exploit a matchup you like. On third and short late in the game, we need to get a first down.
So Eli is trained to read the defense and make his calls at the LOS accordingly. But he seems to forget the imminent need of the football team in that situation.

You're right, of course. However, that's Eli. That's his mindset. if he has a chance to knock one out of the park, he will go for it and it's been successful for him in the past. Live by the sword die by the sword. I agree with you howver, and I think Eli aluded to it earlier this week that he he has to dink and dunk more and not always go for the big play.

giantsforce
11-09-2012, 11:36 AM
Yeah, I am saying all game long "just get the first down" I have no problem with the BIG SPLASH plays but sustaining drives is far more important and it's where we have so much trouble.here is where the play calling and coaching comes into the picture. Why is it that when we need 1 yard we throw deep and when we need 7or more we throw short? This is a pattern that needs to be broken and I do not see anyone doing anything about it. If Eli is calling these plays, coaches need to step in and correct it. If the coaches are calling it, then they need to correct that too. The way I see it it is both play calling and execution. Both need to improve. There is no excuse whatsoever for not being able to score TD's from inside the 20. None. All I see is too many attempts to run up the middle for no gain. The last offensive TD we scored was a run to the outside. A little play action and misdirection can go along way near the goal line. Romo was able to fake the entire Giants defense and take it for a TD, why can't we do something similar?

giantsforce
11-09-2012, 11:38 AM
You're right, of course. However, that's Eli. That's his mindset. if he has a chance to knock one out of the park, he will go for it and it's been successful for him in the past. Live by the sword die by the sword. I agree with you howver, and I think Eli aluded to it earlier this week that he he has to dink and dunk more and not always go for the big play.so what are the coaches doing to correct that?

Diamondring
11-09-2012, 11:38 AM
I wish I can look at KG's Playbook. I want to see how many plays he have to compliment the deep and the plays for the 20 yardline.

Dwinsballgames
11-09-2012, 11:42 AM
so what are the coaches doing to correct that?

unfortunately (or fortunately), they don't consult with me on that.

GameTime
11-09-2012, 11:48 AM
[QUOTE=Morehead State;572127]One of the problems I have with Eli is that he seems to be programmed to see a matchup and exploit it, despite the down, distance, score and other conditions in the game.QUOTE]

bingo....when it works its awesome but there are times when you have to sit back and just move the chains.

Morehead State
11-09-2012, 12:21 PM
You're right, of course. However, that's Eli. That's his mindset. if he has a chance to knock one out of the park, he will go for it and it's been successful for him in the past. Live by the sword die by the sword. I agree with you howver, and I think Eli aluded to it earlier this week that he he has to dink and dunk more and not always go for the big play.
I disagree. You are implying that Eli is too stupid to make the right play based on the game conditions. I find that hard to believe.

Dwinsballgames
11-09-2012, 12:44 PM
I disagree. You are implying that Eli is too stupid to make the right play based on the game conditions. I find that hard to believe.

how in the world did anything I said imply that the guy is stupid?. All I said is that he likes to throw the ball down the field. and I seem to remember an interview where he said he has to dink and dunk more.

How does this make him stupid?

giantsforce
11-09-2012, 12:56 PM
unfortunately (or fortunately), they don't consult with me on that.Maybe they should! However, have you seen any adjustments that will tell us they are doing something? So, far I have not seen any, same playcalling, same players despite the famous "if you do not practice, you do not play", same old story.

Morehead State
11-09-2012, 02:02 PM
how in the world did anything I said imply that the guy is stupid?. All I said is that he likes to throw the ball down the field. and I seem to remember an interview where he said he has to dink and dunk more.

How does this make him stupid?
It doesn't. But to say that "thats just Eli" suggests that he can't change. His comments about throwing more short passes actually disproves your "thats just Eli" comment.

Dwinsballgames
11-09-2012, 02:08 PM
It doesn't. But to say that "thats just Eli" suggests that he can't change. His comments about throwing more short passes actually disproves your "thats just Eli" comment.

again, i didn't imply that either, you just inferred it incorrectly. I said that is his mindset. he admitted he has to change that a bit. that's the beginning, middle and end of what i said or implied.

Morehead State
11-09-2012, 02:12 PM
again, i didn't imply that either, you just inferred it incorrectly. I said that is his mindset. he admitted he has to change that a bit. that's the beginning, middle and end of what i said or implied.
OK. I understand what you are saying. My only point is that when you say that "That's just Eli" its not unreasonable to think that you are suggesting that we should just accept it.
When someone says on the MB "That's just Morehead", I think they are saying that I'm always going to be that way.

And Trust me......They are right!

tcseacliff
11-09-2012, 02:42 PM
seems to be .both. like our offense , as of late seems to be getting pushed back rather than be the ones doing the pushing. same team will play another team and it looks opposite that they get manhandled. guess that is why it is , any given Sunday!

RoanokeFan
11-09-2012, 02:49 PM
OK. I understand what you are saying. My only point is that when you say that "That's just Eli" its not unreasonable to think that you are suggesting that we should just accept it.
When someone says on the MB "That's just Morehead", I think they are saying that I'm always going to be that way.

And Trust me......They are right!

If the team were as consistent as MS, we'd be in Fat City

YATittle1962
11-09-2012, 02:55 PM
if it is 3rd and 1 and a pass play is called where the shortest route is 10 yards deep .....it's the play

if it is 3rd and 1 and your back takes it up the gut and loses 2 yards.......it's the players

joemorrisforprez
11-09-2012, 03:16 PM
I don't think anybody besides the coaches and players know 100%. I go by what I see.

I think it's both.
It's weird how we were so explosive in the beginning of the season...and then we get this huge drop of production. So did everyone just start sucking all together? I don't believe that.

What I think it is, is the lack of adjustments being made on the offensive side of the ball. Teams know they have to double Nicks and Cruz and we have ZERO gameplan once that's done.

Our receivers need to learn how to play physical, especially Cruz. Players are going to be tripling you up, and bumping you at the line. Nobody is going to let you get those 70 yard bombs anymore. Learn to play physical.

Eli CANNOT revert to throwing into triple coverage anymore and expect Cruz to take it to the house for 50 yards. This is not 2011. Nicks also isn't 100% as well. We cannot depend on our receivers to make miraculous plays. We need to switch things up.

Last but not least, our run game needs to play better. I love Bradshaw but the dancing around isn't getting us yardage. If he's injured, he needs to rest. I don't care how passionate he is. Andre Brown has proven to be effective.

Players AND coaches need to adjust.


+1

joemorrisforprez
11-09-2012, 03:17 PM
if it is 3rd and 1 and a pass play is called where the shortest route is 10 yards deep .....it's the play

if it is 3rd and 1 and your back takes it up the gut and loses 2 yards.......it's the players

Great way to put it.

jomo
11-09-2012, 04:39 PM
When the offense or defense fail or succeed, how do you know it is cause of the play or the players?You can add coaches to that list.