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Morehead State
11-19-2012, 10:15 AM
There are a few here that have been waiting a long time for this...and to be honest, I knew the day was coming. Eli is elite if he is protected, has receivers that can create separation, and has some sort of running game to keep the defense honest. In this scenario, he would be MVP every year, however we may never know. I compare him favorably to QB's like Brady and even his brother. If you take away one or two of those aspects and they become very average...especially the protection and we only have to look at our SB's to see what you can do to Brady if you don't give him time.

There are QB's out there that can succeed without great protection...for a while...but it seems these guys end up on the sideline for a stretch just about every year. How many times have you seen teams with QB's like these that head into the playoffs with their top QB out with injury.

I think the real problem here on this board is that there are people here who lived through the Simms era and became very attached to him. They don't want anyone else to come and take his crown, and that is understandable. I would venture to say that it happens all the time with other fans of other teams. I can only imagine if anyone ever went to SF and challenged Montana's legend. It would be ugly would be putting it mildly.

Like it was said before, elite is a subjective word. There is no set standard such as certain stats over a certain time to define it. Like I said before, I consider Eli elite because of the fact that he is chosen to endorse so many things, especially the ads that try to control the evils of the world. Not only has Eli accomplished a lot on the field, but he has gone about it in a way that is very honorable in a place that is not very conducive to such behavior. IMO, that makes him elite...but again, it will always just be an opinion when talking about a word like "elite".

Well you make an interesting point regarding the "conditions" of Eli's eliteness.
IF Eli has great protection, IF Eli has a good running game, IF Eli has WR's that create separation, he is Elite. Well so would many, many other QB's. I have always said that Eli needs really good players around him, to fulfill the scenario we just described.
Is that "elite"? A guy who has to have these specific conditions around him to succeed? My view is no. Others clearly disagree.

Now lets look at Phil. Despite the claims to the contrary, Phil spent most of his career getting killed due to a horrific O line. To me, only Davis Carr has been hit more often than Phil in NFL history. Phil had below average pass catchers. The list of mediocrity at the WR position is troubling. He did have Bavaro who was great, but when Phil threw for 4000 yards, he didn't have Bavaro. He didn't have a single guy catch 50 balls.

Ultimately the conditions on the ground matter. Eli has had two generations of outstanding pass catchers. He has had much better O line protection. In other words, Phil did it with far, far less. In my view, he was simply better. Not just because of these factors, but because of his raw ability and skill level to play the game. Phil was just a better passer, had a better release, was a better field general. And Eli's "bad" is really, really bad. Phil was never as bad as we've seen the past 4 weeks.
This topic will be argued by Giants fans forever. It will never be resolved. But hopefully when the agenda's are put away, a more calm and intelligent debate can be had.

Imgrate
11-19-2012, 10:18 AM
if we are going by the literal definition of the wordI dont think there are 10 QBs better than Eli in the leagueand in general consensus the top ten of anything would be considered cream of the crop so to speak therefor he would be among the group of elite players at his position35% of starting qbs are elite? I don't think that is the literal definition

bigjeep
11-19-2012, 10:21 AM
sorry , never met a dude named Buffy.

I'm going for a 100

stormblue
11-19-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm going for a 100

i don't geddit...

what does that even mean ?

GCGiant
11-19-2012, 10:31 AM
Well you make an interesting point regarding the "conditions" of Eli's eliteness.


Well...if you sincerely consider my post interesting than I have succeeded. That is all I aspire to...for my posts to create interest.

I knew the response of "well, anyone could succeed under those conditions"...or words similar...was coming. It is true to a certain degree...but I do think that you have to put your time in on the practice field and film room, have a reasonable amount of intelligence, a pro QB arm, and be able to brush-off the criticism that comes during times like these. Some guys may have some of those qualities but not all.

I don't know if you caught that piece on Tebow where there were 4 QB's, (Staubach, Stewart, Young, and Namath) talking about different aspects of Tebow's game and personality. I bring this up because of the piece that Steve Young did. He talked about the platform that the 9ers provided for him and how thankful and fortunate he was to have that platform. My contention is that even great QB's will fail without such a platform.

Morehead State
11-19-2012, 10:53 AM
Well...if you sincerely consider my post interesting than I have succeeded. That is all I aspire to...for my posts to create interest.

I knew the response of "well, anyone could succeed under those conditions"...or words similar...was coming. It is true to a certain degree...but I do think that you have to put your time in on the practice field and film room, have a reasonable amount of intelligence, a pro QB arm, and be able to brush-off the criticism that comes during times like these. Some guys may have some of those qualities but not all.

I don't know if you caught that piece on Tebow where there were 4 QB's, (Staubach, Stewart, Young, and Namath) talking about different aspects of Tebow's game and personality. I bring this up because of the piece that Steve Young did. He talked about the platform that the 9ers provided for him and how thankful and fortunate he was to have that platform. My contention is that even great QB's will fail without such a platform.

There are so many nuances to this comparison. Ultimately after all the stats (which are very hard to compare era to era) and SB MVP's (which mean next to nothing), we all just go by what we see, and the context that we see it in.
My context was a guy who was the leader of a team that broke the cycle of losing that my team suffered for my entire childhood. A guy who overcame more obstacles than anyone who wasn't there can't imagine. He wasn't the son of an NFL QB, he didn't have the care that this Giants regime has handled Eli with. He didn't have the weapons that Eli had.
All we ultimately have is what we've seen on the field and the impact it had on us. Ironically, my greatest moment as a Giants fan was Joe Danelo's FG in OT agianst the Cowboys, followed by Plaxico's TD in SB 42. But in the great scheme of Giants history, to me Phil epitomized everything I think an NFL QB should be. As is true with all of us, I am looking through the prism of my expectations and experiences. But I've tried to make a logical argument.

Having said that, football fandom ain't logical.

GCGiant
11-19-2012, 11:25 AM
There are so many nuances to this comparison. Ultimately after all the stats (which are very hard to compare era to era) and SB MVP's (which mean next to nothing), we all just go by what we see, and the context that we see it in.
My context was a guy who was the leader of a team that broke the cycle of losing that my team suffered for my entire childhood. A guy who overcame more obstacles than anyone who wasn't there can't imagine. He wasn't the son of an NFL QB, he didn't have the care that this Giants regime has handled Eli with. He didn't have the weapons that Eli had.
All we ultimately have is what we've seen on the field and the impact it had on us. Ironically, my greatest moment as a Giants fan was Joe Danelo's FG in OT agianst the Cowboys, followed by Plaxico's TD in SB 42. But in the great scheme of Giants history, to me Phil epitomized everything I think an NFL QB should be. As is true with all of us, I am looking through the prism of my expectations and experiences. But I've tried to make a logical argument.

Having said that, football fandom ain't logical.

You know...I don't think I have ever said anything negative about Phil. I do put him on a list of great NYG QB's. That list would include Connerly, Tittle, Tarkenton, and Eli. I am sure I am leaving someone out...but that's not the point. I don't have a need to label who is the best. They were all entertaining, and I think today's version of Eli and the Giants is right up there when you speak of entertainment. I don't have to work-out during football season because one Giant game is good for a week of cardiovascular exercise.

I can't speak for the previous years, because in yesterday's media when a kid from the MS Gulf Coast only got to see people like Tittle when it was put on one of the 3 channels we had, you didn't get much exposure. Connerly was playing when I was a kid, but I think I was in a crib or something.

Rambling again...but I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think that I had a problem with Phil. My honest opinion of him before it became mandatory that I think about it was that he was a good QB that lead a good team with a great defense. In that era, unfortunately for Simms fans, LT was the focus of that team and received a lion's share of the publicity that reached markets outside of NY. I have to admit, though...as an outsider I don't put him on a pedestal and have Eli on a pedestal because of where I grew up and how much of an impact the whole "Archie Manning" story has had on my life.

Roosevelt
11-19-2012, 01:26 PM
I am not saying that the defense didn’t show up but they did get help from our offense. The opening drive resulting in only 3 points isn’t really the point now is it? The very fact that the opening drive took 9:59 was what was important. We were able to keep NE Patriots from scoring till the 2nd quarter.

What happens is when we are all discussing we go off on tangents or put down another part of the team more than we really want to because we are defending our positions.

Do I think Eli is better than Phil was? Yes I do but I still love Phil and think he is an all time NY Giant great.

Do I think our defense has been soft at times during the past 5-6 seasons? Yes I do but I do acknowledge that they have showed up at crucial times, particularly in postseason. I also acknowledge at times that I may be over critical of them when defending my position in one debate or another.

Phil has the right to make any comments that he wants and I do think that they are being blown way out of proportion. I think Eli Manning is an ELIte QB but some folks do not and they do have a legitimate argument. If they are going to say that Aaron, Drew, Ben, Peyton and Tom are better then that would make Eli number 6 and technically, he wouldn’t be considered ELIte. Personally, I think that the only QB that is better than Eli is Tom.

The thing with Eli Manning is that when he is on his game, he is one of the most feared players in NFL. Phil as awesome as he was, never was like that. Its not a knock on Phil, just my opinion.

Another thing in the comparrasion with Eli and Phil is that NY Giants would win when Phil was off. Come on now folks, those of you like myself that watched Phil back then know that he put up some stinkers. He had some awful games too. When Eli is off, it is very rare that NY Giants win.

All the fuss about the “is Eli ELIte or not question” but folks sometimes forget to realize that Eli was asked the question. He didn’t just go out there and state “hey, I am in same class as Tom Brady.” He was asked the question and he answered it in the only way that he should have. Then he went out, had a great regular season and then an incredible post season where he threw for more yards in a single post season than any other QB in NFL history.The reporter asked him the question. Eli gave his verbal answer and then he went out and let his play do the talking.

I agree with a lot of this post. You're right, sometimes we argue our positions and come across as if we are taking shots at players or coaches or whatever, when that is really not the intention of the point were trying to make. That is why some people (mostly the loonies) labeled me a hater.

But you must admit you did make comments stating that if Eli played in Simms' system and era, he would have dominated it, and Phil would have struggled with this team. You followed that up by saying Parcells would have done back-flips to have Eli, and tried to diminish Phil's SB performance by suggesting it was due to soft defense. You also tried to discredit him for our success in 1990 as well. So while you seem to be in gentlemen-mode now you certainly weren't earlier in the thread.

One thing I want to touch on is when we analyze the differences in the game, we need to consider not only how things have changed on the field, but off it as well. I've said this many times, and will say it again; the Giants did have a QB coach back in 1981. That is why Phil was very interested in playing for Bill Walsh. When Phil was worked out by Walsh, he released that this man was something special and extremely knowledgeable about the QB position. The Giants on the other hand, didn't hire a QB coach until 1991 and that guy was Jim Fassel. Fassel played a major role in Phil's development as a QB. Film study before Jim was nothing like it is today. Just the technological aspect alone that allows these players to study the game is light-years ahead in comparison to what it was. So when we talk about Eli being better at reading defenses and things of that nature, let's agree that he damned well better be.

The other thing I would debate you on is whether Eli could "be off" and we still win. Up until the end of 2007 I would say that was exactly what was happening. Plaxico Burress made it so that all Eli had to do was chuck up in his direction and somehow Plax would come down with it time after time. Without Plaxico we weren't winning that SB, period.

And In more recent years as Eli has progressed and continues to wow us in the 2-minute drill, he does struggle at times, and get's bailed out by his teammates. It works both ways.

There were a lot of lean years before Phil Simms became a Giant, and I have never discounted him. I've always thought the lack of talent surrounding him as well as Parcells influence on the offensive system, made it very difficult for a QB to perform at a high level.

And with that. I gotta get back to work!

CowboysSuck
11-19-2012, 01:33 PM
Can we end this thread. We are giving Simms, currently Giant Nation's biggest troll, more attention than he deserves.

Morehead State
11-19-2012, 01:40 PM
Can we end this thread. We are giving Simms, currently Giant Nation's biggest troll, more attention than he deserves.
Just when the conversation gets intelligent and non-agendized, you go and try to drag it back down into the sewer.

sharick88
11-19-2012, 02:00 PM
Can we end this thread. We are giving Simms, currently Giant Nation's biggest troll, more attention than he deserves.

Never. LOL

BuffyBlueII
11-19-2012, 02:25 PM
Well you make an interesting point regarding the "conditions" of Eli's eliteness.
IF Eli has great protection, IF Eli has a good running game, IF Eli has WR's that create separation, he is Elite. Well so would many, many other QB's. I have always said that Eli needs really good players around him, to fulfill the scenario we just described.
Is that "elite"? A guy who has to have these specific conditions around him to succeed? My view is no. Others clearly disagree.

Now lets look at Phil. Despite the claims to the contrary, Phil spent most of his career getting killed due to a horrific O line. To me, only Davis Carr has been hit more often than Phil in NFL history. Phil had below average pass catchers. The list of mediocrity at the WR position is troubling. He did have Bavaro who was great, but when Phil threw for 4000 yards, he didn't have Bavaro. He didn't have a single guy catch 50 balls.

Ultimately the conditions on the ground matter. Eli has had two generations of outstanding pass catchers. He has had much better O line protection. In other words, Phil did it with far, far less. In my view, he was simply better. Not just because of these factors, but because of his raw ability and skill level to play the game. Phil was just a better passer, had a better release, was a better field general. And Eli's "bad" is really, really bad. Phil was never as bad as we've seen the past 4 weeks.
This topic will be argued by Giants fans forever. It will never be resolved. But hopefully when the agenda's are put away, a more calm and intelligent debate can be had.

These are good points but I disagree with you on a couple.

Last year, we had the worst running game in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had one of the worst defenses in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had a horrible offensive line and Eli Manning still led us to victories. The WR corps is one that Eli Manning was instrumental in developing. Heck, our WRs are completely different in regard to personnell as well as style of play now than when we won SuperbowlXLII. Another thing to take in to account is that none of the WRs that have left NY Giants during Eli Manning era have been as productive since.

Yes, Phil Simms didn’t have great receivers but he did a great running game, incredible defense and a better offensive line than Eli Manning. Phil Simms got hit a lot because the guy was a statue back there. Folks go on and on about how goofy and clumsy Eli is but he is way more mobile in the pocket than Phil ever was.

Phil Simms was staid and didn’t read defenses the way Eli Manning does and he left a lot of open receivers out there. Phil had a connon of an arm and as far as a raw passer, was one of the best. Overall however, Eli Manning in my opinion is just the better QB. However, the argument that Philm Simms was the better QB is a legitimate one. The guy was tough as nails and so very talented. In another system, I think he would have had way better stats. Heck, there was a reason that a fottball smarty pants like the late BIll Walsh wanted to draft him so bad.

Morehead State
11-19-2012, 02:36 PM
These are good points but I disagree with you on a couple.

Last year, we had the worst running game in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had one of the worst defenses in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had a horrible offensive line and Eli Manning still led us to victories. The WR corps is one that Eli Manning was instrumental in developing. Heck, our WRs are completely different in regard to personnell as well as style of play. Another thing to take in to account is that none of the WRs that have left NY Giants during Eli Manning era have been as productive since.

Yes, Phil Simms didn’t have great receivers but he did a great running game, incredible defense and a better offensive line than Eli Manning. Phil Simms got hit a lot because the guy was a statue back there. Folks go on and on about how goofy and clumsy Eli is but he is way more mobile in the pocket than Phil ever was.

Phil Simms was staid and didn’t read defenses the way Eli Manning does and he left a lot of open receivers out there. Phil had a connon of an arm and as far as a raw passer, was one of the best. Overall however, Eli Manning in my opinion is just the better QB.

If you use just 2011 to judge Eli, then you have a good case. All these things are true about our team last season. And if we saw a continuation of last years play, then you would have a case there too. But......
-One season out of 9 isn't the standard.
- if the play continued this season, you could make the argument that he has become a great QB. But he is playing like a rookie this year. 12 TD's and 11 picks are worse numbers than most NFL QB's this season. Its not a small drop off...its a huge one. And his poor plays are really bad. I mean real "shake your head" kind of bad.

I am very disappointed that he has played the way he has. I was actually starting to believe that he had become a much better QB. And BTW..as bad as his numbers are, they should be worse. He threw two passes in the hands of defenders at our near the attacking endzone in SF and in Dallas that should have been picked and run back for defensive TD's.

So we have to step back and take a look at the good and bad of Eli. His career so far in its entirety. What we see is a guy with flashes of greatness. A guy who put together two great playoff runs. A guy with a knack for late game greatness at times. But we also see a guy who is extremely inconsistent, who is capable still of horrendous play that only rookie QB's should have, and a guy who has a generally "uneven" level of play for 9 years.
So I see a franchise QB, who has done some great things with us, but also has weaknesses and unbroken bad habits that keep him off the list of "elite" QB's.

YATittle1962
11-19-2012, 02:40 PM
35% of starting qbs are elite? I don't think that is the literal definition

the literal definition is

a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
b. The best or most skilled members of a group:

I believe Eli is among the best in the league

there might be 5 QBs in the league better than him ....I would say that would put him among elite company

Morehead State
11-19-2012, 02:51 PM
the literal definition is

a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
b. The best or most skilled members of a group:

I believe Eli is among the best in the league

there might be 5 QBs in the league better than him ....I would say that would put him among elite company
Well there are literal definitions and there are football definitions.
I think "elite" QB's need to be more consistently great that Eli.
Right now I think there are 5.
Rodgers, Brees, Peyton, Brady and Ben. I thought Eli and Ben were at a similar level, but I'm growing more convinced of Ben's greatness. And I'm getting a little uncertain of Eli's.
"Elite" QB's don't go through a 5 game stretch with 1 TD and 6 picks. And its been uglier than those numbers suggest.

Roosevelt
11-19-2012, 03:04 PM
nygfanmaybe here are a few here that have been waiting a long time for this...and to be honest, I knew the day was coming. Eli is elite if he is protected, has receivers that can create separation, and has some sort of running game to keep the defense honest. In this scenario, he would be MVP every year, however we may never know. I compare him favorably to QB's like Brady and even his brother. If you take away one or two of those aspects and they become very average...especially the protection and we only have to look at our SB's to see what you can do to Brady if you don't give him time.

After last year I thought he was right up there with the best, but not now. The last few weeks we have seen him go back to the things that got him in trouble years ago. It might be because he's trying to do too much but it really doesn't matter the reason. We know how well he can play and we know there is another side to his game as well.

But the thing that has made Eli so special is not his overall game. Let's face it he might not throw the greatest passes and he's not athletic where he can beat anyone with his feat. But what he is is a winner. When the pressure is at it's greatest, this guy makes pays. That's why we love Eli Manning.



There are QB's out there that can succeed without great protection...for a while...but it seems these guys end up on the sideline for a stretch just about every year. How many times have you seen teams with QB's like these that head into the playoffs with their top QB out with injury?

Not sure exactly what your point is here. Every team is looking to pressure the QB, and injuries can happen to anyone. But then take guys like John Elway and Joe Montana for instance, these guys could make plays with their feet and they are two of the greatest to ever play. I think that's what Phil was saying when he said that Eli cannot do it on his own.


I think the real problem here on this board is that there are people here who lived through the Simms era and became very attached to him. They don't want anyone else to come and take his crown, and that is understandable. I would venture to say that it happens all the time with other fans of other teams. I can only imagine if anyone ever went to SF and challenged Montana's legend. It would be ugly would be putting it mildly.

That's silly. That's like saying we don't want Tuck to be more successful than Michael Strahan. Of course we want Eli to play well.

Also, have you ever heard about Steve Young? You ought to read about him. But of course the difference being that Steve replaced Joe during Joe's career.



Like it was said before, elite is a subjective word.

Elite is not subjective. Elite is the best of the best. The cream of the crop. To dominate at your position. Now if you believe he is or isn't that is your business and it's something we can all debate.


There is no set standard such as certain stats over a certain time to define it. Like I said before, I consider Eli elite because of the fact that he is chosen to endorse so many things, especially the ads that try to control the evils of the world. Not only has Eli accomplished a lot on the field, but he has gone about it in a way that is very honorable in a place that is not very conducive to such behavior. IMO, that makes him elite...but again, it will always just be an opinion when talking about a word like "elite".

Eli is a great ambassador for the game of football no doubt. But like the HOF, we're only talking about what he does on the field.

Roosevelt
11-19-2012, 03:08 PM
Just when the conversation gets intelligent and non-agendized, you go and try to drag it back down into the sewer.

Take advantage of the "ignore poster" feature. It works very well.

Morehead State
11-19-2012, 04:19 PM
Take advantage of the "ignore poster" feature. It works very well.
its like staring at the sun Rosie. I can't look away.

Roosevelt
11-19-2012, 05:40 PM
its like staring at the sun Rosie. I can't look away.

lol.

I'm telling you man the board has a totally new feel to it. I believe you could call it "normal." ;)

alentown pa
11-19-2012, 05:49 PM
agreed about Eli playing poorly as of late, but I look at it this way and it is rather simple, Even though he has looked bad for several games, you still have to feel good in the fact that Eli Manning is the giants Qb come Sunday....Would it be a big deal if he out played A-rod on sunday? of course not, he has done it before on the biggest stage...The reason I have so much confidence in him is because we all know how hard he works and he has always found a way to get it fixed...Guy has never had a losing season, has been an all pro, great in playoffs, great on the road, as good as it gets late in games, and a 2 time super bowl MVP..my bet is on Eli this week.

alentown pa
11-19-2012, 05:51 PM
If you use just 2011 to judge Eli, then you have a good case. All these things are true about our team last season. And if we saw a continuation of last years play, then you would have a case there too. But......
-One season out of 9 isn't the standard.
- if the play continued this season, you could make the argument that he has become a great QB. But he is playing like a rookie this year. 12 TD's and 11 picks are worse numbers than most NFL QB's this season. Its not a small drop off...its a huge one. And his poor plays are really bad. I mean real "shake your head" kind of bad.

I am very disappointed that he has played the way he has. I was actually starting to believe that he had become a much better QB. And BTW..as bad as his numbers are, they should be worse. He threw two passes in the hands of defenders at our near the attacking endzone in SF and in Dallas that should have been picked and run back for defensive TD's.

So we have to step back and take a look at the good and bad of Eli. His career so far in its entirety. What we see is a guy with flashes of greatness. A guy who put together two great playoff runs. A guy with a knack for late game greatness at times. But we also see a guy who is extremely inconsistent, who is capable still of horrendous play that only rookie QB's should have, and a guy who has a generally "uneven" level of play for 9 years.
So I see a franchise QB, who has done some great things with us, but also has weaknesses and unbroken bad habits that keep him off the list of "elite" QB's.

good point about the niner game, he got lucky on a few throws, but you could also say he should have at least one more td, considering the drop cruz had last week...but overall I agree

Cool Papa B.
11-19-2012, 08:41 PM
Boomer and Adam Schein were really giving it to Simms tonight on the Monday Quarterback show. Look, it was a knee-jerk comment by Simms, but he's still one of the greatest Giants QB's of all time and one of the nicest guys too. I gave him a pass on this one.

Roosevelt
11-19-2012, 10:04 PM
agreed about Eli playing poorly as of late, but I look at it this way and it is rather simple, Even though he has looked bad for several games, you still have to feel good in the fact that Eli Manning is the giants Qb come Sunday....Would it be a big deal if he out played A-rod on sunday? of course not, he has done it before on the biggest stage...The reason I have so much confidence in him is because we all know how hard he works and he has always found a way to get it fixed...Guy has never had a losing season, has been an all pro, great in playoffs, great on the road, as good as it gets late in games, and a 2 time super bowl MVP..my bet is on Eli this week.

I agree, except I'm not sure what to expect this week. The team has to show me something before I can feel comfortable that we are back on the right track.

But just imagine if the slide continues. This place will be ugly. Let's hope we are all in our happy place come Sunday night.

bigjeep
11-20-2012, 12:11 PM
I agree, except I'm not sure what to expect this week. The team has to show me something before I can feel comfortable that we are back on the right track.

But just imagine if the slide continues. This place will be ugly. Let's hope we are all in our happy place come Sunday night.

Not sure if the Giants have that edge this year! They look too complacent!

zimonami
11-20-2012, 12:50 PM
Not sure if the Giants have that edge this year! They look too complacent!
I'm not sure complacent is the right word, but it's on the right track.
They are lacking something... focus? Belief in the goal?
But, what you are talking about has nothing to do with Eli playing badly. If Eli plays better, we can win in spite of a lack of focus/urgency. But, we won't get through the playoffs.
Are we kidding ourselves, or do we really think they're capable oof going all the way?
Well, if you revisit the Carolina and 49er games, I'm convinced you'll see the best team in the NFL.
Now, how do they regain that edge?
I'd like to see a rookie, Wilson in particular, have a big important 4th Qtr. run to snap some people to attention... like Bradshaw did for us in 2007 against Buffalo. He came in and wouldn't let us lose. Not the same old 'Eli to the rescue', comeback win... but, a big run from scrimmage. We need some of that attitude that I think a run like that would help instill. For some reason TC isn't bringing it out of them.... something needs to snap them to attention.

bigjeep
11-20-2012, 05:06 PM
I'm not sure complacent is the right word, but it's on the right track.
They are lacking something... focus? Belief in the goal?
But, what you are talking about has nothing to do with Eli playing badly. If Eli plays better, we can win in spite of a lack of focus/urgency. But, we won't get through the playoffs.
Are we kidding ourselves, or do we really think they're capable oof going all the way?
Well, if you revisit the Carolina and 49er games, I'm convinced you'll see the best team in the NFL.
Now, how do they regain that edge?
I'd like to see a rookie, Wilson in particular, have a big important 4th Qtr. run to snap some people to attention... like Bradshaw did for us in 2007 against Buffalo. He came in and wouldn't let us lose. Not the same old 'Eli to the rescue', comeback win... but, a big run from scrimmage. We need some of that attitude that I think a run like that would help instill. For some reason TC isn't bringing it out of them.... something needs to snap them to attention.

Eli is not getting the protection he had gotten earlier and that is also making a difference! The pressure is forcing Eli into mistakes and Interceptions!

EliDaMANning
11-20-2012, 05:24 PM
When Eli wins his 3rd SB MVP this year and becomes the undisputed GOAT, will this nonsense stop?

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 05:28 PM
When Eli wins his 3rd SB MVP this year and becomes the undisputed GOAT, will this nonsense stop?

nope..u will have miserable posters like MH, Buddy33, and harooni, trying to find fault with this QB..it gets old, but it will never stop

stormblue
11-20-2012, 05:31 PM
When Eli wins his 3rd SB MVP this year and becomes the undisputed GOAT, will this nonsense stop?

probably not.

but he will definitely be the scapeGOAT if he doesn't win it.

:cool:

zimonami
11-20-2012, 05:36 PM
When Eli wins his 3rd SB MVP this year and becomes the undisputed GOAT, will this nonsense stop?
Oh, ye of little faith....

EliDaMANning
11-20-2012, 06:14 PM
nope..u will have miserable posters like MH, Buddy33, and harooni, trying to find fault with this QB..it gets old, but it will never stopIt's a shame. One more SB MVP puts him a step ahead of Brady and right there with Montana.

But if he goes on another losing streak people will still bicker about his "chuck and duck" mentality. LOL

PETEY006
11-20-2012, 06:39 PM
Just more motivatation for Eli Manning to win another one :)

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 06:39 PM
nope..u will have miserable posters like MH, Buddy33, and harooni, trying to find fault with this QB..it gets old, but it will never stop
You just can't help yourself can you?
Its like you have Taurettes Syndrome. You just have this kneejerk need to attack other posters.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 07:33 PM
You just can't help yourself can you?
Its like you have Taurettes Syndrome. You just have this kneejerk need to attack other posters.

When you say "attack" that bothers me, You make it seem like I'm taking some personal shot or something, I'm not, the three posters I named are known for being negative, I don't think that's an attack, just stating the obvious. I know we all have the rite to our own opinons, blah blah, I just got tired of reading the negative opinions of the posters I listed above and decided to voice my own...but in all seriousness I don't want you to take it personal or feel attacked, either give your opinion back or ignore it.

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 07:51 PM
When you say "attack" that bothers me, You make it seem like I'm taking some personal shot or something, I'm not, the three posters I named are known for being negative, I don't think that's an attack, just stating the obvious. I know we all have the rite to our own opinons, blah blah, I just got tired of reading the negative opinions of the posters I listed above and decided to voice my own...but in all seriousness I don't want you to take it personal or feel attacked, either give your opinion back or ignore it.
I'm not a negative poster at all. Yes I'm bummed about Eli's bad play and i say so. Who isn't.
Its funny with you guys. I defend the defense, I defend the O line, I defend Nicks and Cruz, but if I'm down on the QB that makes me "negative".
and why do you have to bring posters names into it at all. What did you call me? Miserable? You just can't make your case about the game so you resort to going after your fellow Giants fans. Guys like you are a dime a dozen.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:03 PM
I'm not a negative poster at all. Yes I'm bummed about Eli's bad play and i say so. Who isn't.
Its funny with you guys. I defend the defense, I defend the O line, I defend Nicks and Cruz, but if I'm down on the QB that makes me "negative".
and why do you have to bring posters names into it at all. What did you call me? Miserable? You just can't make your case about the game so you resort to going after your fellow Giants fans. Guys like you are a dime a dozen.

I've made my case, you prbly didnt take the time to read it, which is ok. As for being a dime a dozen lol, your posts are as predictable as anyone elses...You piss and moan and ***** about everything under the sun and then when some of it comes true, you run your mouth on here about how you were right about this and that, and how you don't want to hear it from other posters. You seem overly sensitive.

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:07 PM
I've made my case, you prbly didnt take the time to read it, which is ok. As for being a dime a dozen lol, your posts are as predictable as anyone elses...You piss and moan and ***** about everything under the sun and then when some of it comes true, you run your mouth on here about how you were right about this and that, and how you don't want to hear it from other posters. You seem overly sensitive.
So when I defend David Deihl I'm pissing and moaning? When I defend the O line in general I'm pissing and moaning? When I defend the defense I am pissing and moaning?
No you think the team is Eli Manning. I think the team in 53 guys who play their asses off. The problem is that when I defend other players you interpret that as a knock on Eli.
Again, it seems that you think Eli is the team.

Rudyy
11-20-2012, 08:10 PM
http://thatschurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:11 PM
http://thatschurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Popcorn-09-Psych.gif
Morehead's there for ya.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:15 PM
So when I defend David Deihl I'm pissing and moaning? When I defend the O line in general I'm pissing and moaning? When I defend the defense I am pissing and moaning?
No you think the team is Eli Manning. I think the team in 53 guys who play their asses off. The problem is that when I defend other players you interpret that as a knock on Eli.
Again, it seems that you think Eli is the team.

sigh..ok your missing the point, I agree with everything you said about Eli and I think you make fine points about others, and I'm not telling you how to vent but you have more than once come on here and talked about how poorly Eli played and how you called it or whatever, I find it annoying and posted about. It's not about defending anyone it's just your tact, not saying you need to change your ways, far be it from me, I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.

sharick88
11-20-2012, 08:15 PM
nope..u will have miserable posters like MH, Buddy33, and harooni, trying to find fault with this QB..it gets old, but it will never stop

If you think these guys are trip, you should have been around for ThurstonHowell. Anyways, why don't you just agree to disagree with them instead of writing a post *****ing about them?

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:16 PM
MH,btw your over reaction to someone disagreeing with you is typical, talk about someone being a dime a dozen. lighten up francis

sharick88
11-20-2012, 08:18 PM
David Diehl has no defense. He simply sux.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:19 PM
If you think these guys are trip, you should have been around for ThurstonHowell. Anyways, why don't you just agree to disagree with them instead of writing a post *****ing about them?

you're rite and I respect your opinion sharick, but I just got tired of reading the same BS from the same pissy posters, not that I'm anything special, but I honestly question if people like buddy33 are a fan of this team, its just misery.

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:19 PM
sigh..ok your missing the point, I agree with everything you said about Eli and I think you make fine points about others, and I'm not telling you how to vent but you have more than once come on here and talked about how poorly Eli played and how you called it or whatever, I find it annoying and posted about. It's not about defending anyone it's just your tact, not saying you need to change your ways, far be it from me, I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.
yeah I read that, then I read your next post attacking other posters as usual.

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:20 PM
you're rite and I respect your opinion sharick, but I just got tired of reading the same BS from the same pissy posters, not that I'm anything special, but I honestly question if people like buddy33 are a fan of this team, its just misery.
Don't kid yourself, Sharick loves Morehead.

we shared soy sauce together and lived to talk about it.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:22 PM
yeah I read that, then I read your next post attacking other posters as usual.

and you cry around on here as usual..and buddy33 is not a poster he is a robot of cyber misery

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:27 PM
and you cry around on here as usual..and buddy33 is not a poster he is a robot of cyber misery
Why don't you just keep it about football and let your arguments do the talking?
Unfortunately you just can't do it. Even in this post you have to attack someone else. Poor Buddy.

ShakeandBake
11-20-2012, 08:29 PM
Buddy's avatar should be http://balanceformere.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/eeyore.jpg

sharick88
11-20-2012, 08:30 PM
you're rite and I respect your opinion sharick, but I just got tired of reading the same BS from the same pissy posters, not that I'm anything special, but I honestly question if people like buddy33 are a fan of this team, its just misery.

I personally know that MHS is a fan of the giants. A lot of our fans feel that Simms is the best QB we've ever had. I disagree with them, but just like us, there is nothing that can change their minds. I can understand whey they feel that way. Simms went through a ton and is probably the mentally toughest football player I have ever seen play. This debate is a stalemate. It's just like that old guantlet game on nintendo, it will never end.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:31 PM
Why don't you just keep it about football and let your arguments do the talking?
Unfortunately you just can't do it. Even in this post you have to attack someone else. Poor Buddy.

Ive made me arguments about the game and dont poor buddy me, he could care less what I or anyone else thinks, he just posts and spreads his misery on here daily.

sharick88
11-20-2012, 08:31 PM
Don't kid yourself, Sharick loves Morehead.

we shared soy sauce together and lived to talk about it.

Love is an extremely strong word and you are messing up my street cred.

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:36 PM
Love is an extremely strong word and you are messing up my street cred.
If loving Morehead is wrong....you don't want to be right.

Plus everyone thinks you're Alec Baldwin. So not sure about any street cred.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:37 PM
I personally know that MHS is a fan of the giants. A lot of our fans feel that Simms is the best QB we've ever had. I disagree with them, but just like us, there is nothing that can change their minds. I can understand whey they feel that way. Simms went through a ton and is probably the mentally toughest football player I have ever seen play. This debate is a stalemate. It's just like that old guantlet game on nintendo, it will never end.

Yes, valid points but who doesnt love simms? I do, what I don't get and this has nothing to do with you or MH is why people feel the need to compare the two? who was better? IDK, but people on here seem to have an aliance to one or the other.

byron
11-20-2012, 08:42 PM
because they like to argue

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:45 PM
Yes, valid points but who doesnt love simms? I do, what I don't get and this has nothing to do with you or MH is why people feel the need to compare the two? who was better? IDK, but people on here seem to have an aliance to one or the other.
Because its fun to argue.
Byron is right.
Plus its my job to keep the memory of Phil Simms alive. I accept it with humility and honor for the responsibility.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:51 PM
Because its fun to argue.
Byron is right.
Plus its my job to keep the memory of Phil Simms alive. I accept it with humility and honor for the responsibility.

agreed..but nobody is going to forget Phil Simms, as for this thread, IMO simms is just keeping himself in the lime light as much as I love Phil its a little petty for him to make those comments, he is a competitive guy and I think its sour grapes.

Morehead State
11-20-2012, 08:54 PM
agreed..but nobody is going to forget Phil Simms, as for this thread, IMO simms is just keeping himself in the lime light as much as I love Phil its a little petty for him to make those comments, he is a competitive guy and I think its sour grapes.
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:57 PM
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!

lol..no...look simms is more of an every man, small college had to fight his way took a lot heat early and was tough as nails but I just don't get these ex players like tiki,toomer, and now simms making comments like that..

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 08:59 PM
here is a question I argue with people on here often interested in seeing your take...do you think they win in 90 with Simms in the playoffs, not saying Hoss was better, cause I don't believe that, but do you think they beat SF that year or the Bills with Simms?

byron
11-20-2012, 09:10 PM
god as I remember it with Hoss we were just getting by teams "real close games" his numbers weren't that great....but I may be wrong.....I think we still win with Simms.....Hoss winning it cost Simms his job the next year no ? Hanley....I throught that was bull**** then him a Reeves didn't get along....I feel like Simms got ripped off for a couple years of playing time ....I like Hoss as a player also talk about tough he got killed in oakland


parden the butting in

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 09:15 PM
god as I remember it with Hoss we were just getting by teams "real close games" his numbers weren't that great....but I may be wrong.....I think we still win with Simms.....Hoss winning it cost Simms his job the next year no ? Hanley....I throught that was bull**** then him a Reeves didn't get along....I feel like Simms got ripped off for a couple years of playing time ....I like Hoss as a player also talk about tough he got killed in oakland


parden the butting in

I hated that they went with Hoss in 91 and 92 as well, not saying we would have won another superbowl but they would have made the playoffs in 91 with simms.

zimonami
11-20-2012, 09:17 PM
I think if Simms is our QB in SBXXV that Norwood wouldn't have been kicking that FG... we would have been up by more than a TD. Hoss was great, and I'm eternally grateful for the job he did... but, he managed the game and minimized his own mistakes. He was rarely on the attack. Short passing game, run the ball with Hoss. And, Hoss' mobility was a wrinkle other teams weren't prepared for, and he made a lot of great scrambles at big times.
That might have been Phil's best year until he got hurt. Our offense was clicking nicely

Cool Papa B.
11-20-2012, 09:20 PM
god as I remember it with Hoss we were just getting by teams "real close games" his numbers weren't that great....but I may be wrong.....I think we still win with Simms.....Hoss winning it cost Simms his job the next year no ? Hanley....I throught that was bull**** then him a Reeves didn't get along....I feel like Simms got ripped off for a couple years of playing time ....I like Hoss as a player also talk about tough he got killed in oakland


parden the butting in

I've had arguments before about this. After Simms went down the Giants started running the ball more. Something I felt they needed to do and they probably wouldn't have if Simms was still there. But there was no way Simms should have lost his job to Hostetler over an injury.

byron
11-20-2012, 09:25 PM
I hated that they went with Hoss in 91 and 92 as well, not saying we would have won another superbowl but they would have made the playoffs in 91 with simms. Yeah I think so to....Hoss could scramble out of trouble... Simms was a far better passer both were tough Parcell had stayed Simms would have been the man ... I like Hoss to but always felt Simms got screwed....

bigblue58
11-20-2012, 09:28 PM
yeah I know the "legend" of Joe Nameth. But his stats suck......more losses than wins etc...
but he is a legend and thats the only reason he is in....

Anyone who questions Namath's greatness based soley on his stats, is missing the bigger picture..... and totally missing the point!

byron
11-20-2012, 09:31 PM
I've had arguments before about this. After Simms went down the Giants started running the ball more. Something I felt they needed to do and they probably wouldn't have if Simms was still there. But there was no way Simms should have lost his job to Hostetler over an injury. well that has a lot to do with the wizard Ray Hanley...."spelling'
'

jomo
11-20-2012, 09:45 PM
Anyone who questions Namath's greatness based soley on his stats, is missing the bigger picture..... and totally missing the point!On the list of QB's you'd pick to lead your team in one big game, Namath is not in the first cut (first 10-12), understanding his remarkable SB victory.

sharick88
11-20-2012, 10:07 PM
If loving Morehead is wrong....you don't want to be right.

Plus everyone thinks you're Alec Baldwin. So not sure about any street cred.

That's how I get them. They underestimate me and then I kill them softly

Roosevelt
11-20-2012, 10:36 PM
When Eli wins his 3rd SB MVP this year and becomes the undisputed GOAT, will this nonsense stop?


Presumptuous posts tend to rub me the wrong way. Concern about his recent play and our team's slide is not nonsense.

BuffyBlueII
11-20-2012, 11:14 PM
I agree with a lot of this post. You're right, sometimes we argue our positions and come across as if we are taking shots at players or coaches or whatever, when that is really not the intention of the point were trying to make. That is why some people (mostly the loonies) labeled me a hater.

But you must admit you did make comments stating that if Eli played in Simms' system and era, he would have dominated it, and Phil would have struggled with this team. You followed that up by saying Parcells would have done back-flips to have Eli, and tried to diminish Phil's SB performance by suggesting it was due to soft defense. You also tried to discredit him for our success in 1990 as well. So while you seem to be in gentlemen-mode now you certainly weren't earlier in the thread.

One thing I want to touch on is when we analyze the differences in the game, we need to consider not only how things have changed on the field, but off it as well. I've said this many times, and will say it again; the Giants did have a QB coach back in 1981. That is why Phil was very interested in playing for Bill Walsh. When Phil was worked out by Walsh, he released that this man was something special and extremely knowledgeable about the QB position. The Giants on the other hand, didn't hire a QB coach until 1991 and that guy was Jim Fassel. Fassel played a major role in Phil's development as a QB. Film study before Jim was nothing like it is today. Just the technological aspect alone that allows these players to study the game is light-years ahead in comparison to what it was. So when we talk about Eli being better at reading defenses and things of that nature, let's agree that he damned well better be.

The other thing I would debate you on is whether Eli could "be off" and we still win. Up until the end of 2007 I would say that was exactly what was happening. Plaxico Burress made it so that all Eli had to do was chuck up in his direction and somehow Plax would come down with it time after time. Without Plaxico we weren't winning that SB, period.

And In more recent years as Eli has progressed and continues to wow us in the 2-minute drill, he does struggle at times, and get's bailed out by his teammates. It works both ways.

There were a lot of lean years before Phil Simms became a Giant, and I have never discounted him. I've always thought the lack of talent surrounding him as well as Parcells influence on the offensive system, made it very difficult for a QB to perform at a high level.

And with that. I gotta get back to work!

I didn't intend to be "ungentlemanly" in my previous post comparing the SuperBowl performances. What Phil did in SuperBowl XXI was incredible. However, Eli did go up against a tougher defense in SuperBowl XLII and their head coach was Bill Bellichek.

I wasn't trying to diminish Phil's 1990 season but folks really can't definitively state that we would have blown Buffalo Bills out in SuperBowl if Phil Simms had played the game. Jeff Hosstettler was the QB and he brought a different dynamic to the field. Yes, I like our chances against Buffalo Bills with Phil Simms as QB but I really don't know if we would have beaten them. I tend to think that if Phil were in that game that it would have turned in to a shoot out and I don't think we could have won that way against Buffalo Bills. However, we will never know.

Heck, if Phil didn't get hurt in 1990, he and Eli's 2011 seasons may have been very close. Unfortunately there is no way to tell.

I see your point in regard to the QB coach. However, there are not many QBs in NFL that can read defenses as well as Eli can. Also, Eli has not had a QB coach that is of note since coming in to NFL but I think the point you are making is that the entire field has been revolutionized in the time between Phil and Eli and that Eli has benefited from that. Okay, I can agree with that but lets be honest, Eli has basically had a QB coach since he was a kid in Peyton and Archie.

Plexiglass was Eli's security blanket. He could chuck it to him and Plexiglass would snag it. I am sure that he relied on Plex being able to do that and as painful as it was for Plex to Cheddar Bob himself and mess up our run, it has made Eli become a better QB. However, Eli Manning's adaptability and ability to evolve his game is a great attribute that he has. With the exception of some of the games with Plexiglass, it is very rare that Eli has an off game and wins. That was not the case with Phil. He also had a security blanket that he could hit over the middle and be sure he would make the catch and that was Mark Bavarro.

If one was better than the other is a debate that will go on more than likely till Eli retires but I think we can all agree that we are happy that neither one of our NY Giant QB legends ever had any off the field legal troubles or drama of note.

I like debating with you Rosie, you are a very knowledgable NY Giants fan.

Drez
11-20-2012, 11:23 PM
I
I see your point in regard to the QB coach. However, there are not many QBs in NFL that can read defenses as well as Eli can. Also, Eli has not had a QB coach that is of note since coming in to NFL
He's had Gilbride, Chris Palmer, and Mike Sullivan as QB coaches since being with the Giants, and now Sean Ryan. All of his previous QB coaches have gone on to become OCs in the NFL.

Roosevelt
11-20-2012, 11:34 PM
agreed..but nobody is going to forget Phil Simms, as for this thread, IMO simms is just keeping himself in the lime light as much as I love Phil its a little petty for him to make those comments, he is a competitive guy and I think its sour grapes.

You might be right about that. Phil Simms is a competitive guy.

I can still still remember the night he was out buying Pampers for his kids late at the local grocery store and beat me to the check out line. We made eye contact and I knew I was not messin with this dude.

Roosevelt
11-20-2012, 11:37 PM
Yeah I think so to....Hoss could scramble out of trouble... Simms was a far better passer both were tough Parcell had stayed Simms would have been the man ... I like Hoss to but always felt Simms got screwed....

Simms got screwed by a bum of a coach. And too make matters worse, some of the fools on this board actually get off on that.

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 11:40 PM
You might be right about that. Phil Simms is a competitive guy.

I can still still remember the night he was out by Pampers for his kids late at the local grocery store and beat me to the check out line. We made eye contact and I knew I was not messin with this dude.

lmao that's great Rosey, to bad it wasnt chris simms, you could of easily strong armed him

alentown pa
11-20-2012, 11:43 PM
Simms got screwed by a bum of a coach. And too make matters worse, some of the fools on this board actually get off on that.

we make the playoffs in 91 and prbly 92 with him at QB... If you look at the roster those years they were more talented than the 93 team that was only a win away from home field through out...We won with some ex broncos....Ray H..was a joke.

byron
11-21-2012, 12:21 AM
we make the playoffs in 91 and prbly 92 with him at QB... If you look at the roster those years they were more talented than the 93 team that was only a win away from home field through out...We won with some ex broncos....Ray H..was a joke. You add those two years of numbers to his already impressive career the talk is different around here....Ah well i don't get into the whole comparison discussion ....These two QB's have given giants fans a lot to be proud of ...alone with some great football

BuffyBlueII
11-21-2012, 12:51 AM
He's had Gilbride, Chris Palmer, and Mike Sullivan as QB coaches since being with the Giants, and now Sean Ryan. All of his previous QB coaches have gone on to become OCs in the NFL.

You may disagree with me but I don't think any of those guys are worth a damn.

BuffyBlueII
11-21-2012, 12:53 AM
lmao that's great Rosey, to bad it wasnt chris simms, you could of easily strong armed him

You could have punched him where his spleen was.

BuffyBlueII
11-21-2012, 12:56 AM
You add those two years of numbers to his already impressive career the talk is different around here....Ah well i don't get into the whole comparison discussion ....These two QB's have given giants fans a lot to be proud of ...alone with some great football

Thats probably the best thing to do because both these guys are NY Giants legends.

IMO, if Phil Simms had started those two years he would have had the numbers to go to HoF and maybe won another SuperBowl.

I know that Phil should have started over Hoss but I can't hold it against Hoss, he rose to the occasion when it was time.

zimonami
11-21-2012, 01:01 AM
You may disagree with me but I don't think any of those guys are worth a damn.
I agree... as you pointed out, he has had lifetime coaches, Archie and Peyton, who are more impressive than Gilbride, Palmer or Sullivan.

stormblue
11-21-2012, 05:38 AM
I didn't intend to be "ungentlemanly" in my previous post comparing the SuperBowl performances. What Phil did in SuperBowl XXI was incredible. However, Eli did go up against a tougher defense in SuperBowl XLII and their head coach was Bill Bellichek.

I wasn't trying to diminish Phil's 1990 season but folks really can't definitively state that we would have blown Buffalo Bills out in SuperBowl if Phil Simms had played the game. Jeff Hosstettler was the QB and he brought a different dynamic to the field. Yes, I like our chances against Buffalo Bills with Phil Simms as QB but I really don't know if we would have beaten them. I tend to think that if Phil were in that game that it would have turned in to a shoot out and I don't think we could have won that way against Buffalo Bills. However, we will never know.

Heck, if Phil didn't get hurt in 1990, he and Eli's 2011 seasons may have been very close. Unfortunately there is no way to tell.

I see your point in regard to the QB coach. However, there are not many QBs in NFL that can read defenses as well as Eli can. Also, Eli has not had a QB coach that is of note since coming in to NFL but I think the point you are making is that the entire field has been revolutionized in the time between Phil and Eli and that Eli has benefited from that. Okay, I can agree with that but lets be honest, Eli has basically had a QB coach since he was a kid in Peyton and Archie.

Plexiglass was Eli's security blanket. He could chuck it to him and Plexiglass would snag it. I am sure that he relied on Plex being able to do that and as painful as it was for Plex to Cheddar Bob himself and mess up our run, it has made Eli become a better QB. However, Eli Manning's adaptability and ability to evolve his game is a great attribute that he has. With the exception of some of the games with Plexiglass, it is very rare that Eli has an off game and wins. That was not the case with Phil. He also had a security blanket that he could hit over the middle and be sure he would make the catch and that was Mark Bavarro.

If one was better than the other is a debate that will go on more than likely till Eli retires but I think we can all agree that we are happy that neither one of our NY Giant QB legends ever had any off the field legal troubles or drama of note.

I like debating with you Rosie, you are a very knowledgable NY Giants fan.

yes we can say that with Phil we woulda easily handled Buffalo.

let us reverse it......if Eli were out and Carr got us a hard fought win against a good team ,
would it not be your contention that the victory would have been easier with Eli.

Hoss was not S Young behind Montanna or A Rodgers behind #4.
he was Tebow gettin' lucky.

Phil had already won 10 games that year ...he was zoned , and would have kicked Buffalo's ice-bucket.

Drez
11-21-2012, 07:27 AM
You may disagree with me but I don't think any of those guys are worth a damn.
Then who would be worth a damn if those guys aren't?

Morehead State
11-21-2012, 08:40 AM
yes we can say that with Phil we woulda easily handled Buffalo.

let us reverse it......if Eli were out and Carr got us a hard fought win against a good team ,
would it not be your contention that the victory would have been easier with Eli.

Hoss was not S Young behind Montanna or A Rodgers behind #4.
he was Tebow gettin' lucky.

Phil had already won 10 games that year ...he was zoned , and would have kicked Buffalo's ice-bucket.

OK..Hold on here. Hoss was not "Tim Tebow who got lucky" He was a very good back up who went on tho be very productive in Oakland.

Having said that if you watch the replay of SB 25, he didn't play as well as some give him credit. He missed open receivers and was the beneficiary of a great running game and a great defensive game plan. He was far more a game manager in that SB than playmaker.

zimonami
11-21-2012, 09:52 AM
I'll always appreciate Hoss for doing a good job.
The defense was crzy in SBXXV. Sometimes only putting 1 or 2 down men on the D Line. Belichek was the genius behind it.
I was at the game with my son. A great day.

stormblue
11-21-2012, 10:08 AM
OK..Hold on here. Hoss was not "Tim Tebow who got lucky" He was a very good back up who went on tho be very productive in Oakland.

Having said that if you watch the replay of SB 25, he didn't play as well as some give him credit. He missed open receivers and was the beneficiary of a great running game and a great defensive game plan. He was far more a game manager in that SB than playmaker.

stop nit - pickin' CC , i'm not crushing on Hoss, just pointing out that he was
merely a serviceable QB and i just strongly believe with Simms it would not have
come down to Scott Norwood 's "wide right".

ELI > Carr = Simms > Hoss.

rebelfan1966
11-21-2012, 10:08 AM
OK..Hold on here. Hoss was not "Tim Tebow who got lucky" He was a very good back up who went on tho be very productive in Oakland.

Having said that if you watch the replay of SB 25, he didn't play as well as some give him credit. He missed open receivers and was the beneficiary of a great running game and a great defensive game plan. He was far more a game manager in that SB than playmaker.

How do you know Tebow got lucky? I watched him play in college, he has a lot of heart, not a lot of luck.

rebelfan1966
11-21-2012, 10:18 AM
"No, he is not one of the elites," Simms said in quotes distributed by CBS. "Because when I hear the word elite, I'm thinking about guys that can make unbelievable plays on the field by themselves. There are very few quarterbacks in that category.

"So yes, Eli has been a tremendous team player. He has been MVP of the Super Bowl twice. I know that. But the way I look at it, the answer is no."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/simms-eli-nfl-elite-qbs-article-1.1201145#ixzz2C8Eaubto

Here we go again.....

I want to know who is the most elite hot dog vendor.....

GameTime
11-21-2012, 10:31 AM
I want to know who is the most elite hot dog vendor.....
had guy who sold dirty water dogs out of the back of his station wagon for like 20 years at park by my house. He knew all the kids in town and their siblings. watched us all grow up. His name was Larry......and Larry was Elite.

gumby74
11-21-2012, 10:32 AM
this page has a long way to go before it hits the 255 pages the "Ben is better than Eli" thread had. Courtesy of the legendary Giggles.

Morehead State
11-21-2012, 11:04 AM
this page has a long way to go before it hits the 255 pages the "Ben is better than Eli" thread had. Courtesy of the legendary Giggles.
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.

GameTime
11-21-2012, 11:07 AM
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.

Ben is hurt and out for three weeks......I guess he gets injured better than Eli.....

Morehead State
11-21-2012, 11:11 AM
Ben is hurt and out for three weeks......I guess he gets injured better than Eli.....
Eli is made of rubber. Its not a fair comparison. The man has no skeleton or muscle.

GameTime
11-21-2012, 11:12 AM
Eli is made of rubber. Its not a fair comparison. The man has no skeleton or muscle.

hence the name Gumby....
works for him though....he does bleed however....

stormblue
11-21-2012, 11:19 AM
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.

their stats were almost identical and Ben didn't even play.

Rudyy
11-21-2012, 11:20 AM
Ben is better than Eli...at getting injured.

Ruttiger711
11-21-2012, 11:32 AM
What was lost in all the Eli/Elite talk last year was Ben's performance. I think last year was probably his best.

Hes guilty of dumb **** in his own right. Similar to where Eli would not just take the sack and force a throw for a turnover, Ben would many times do the same thing and get too overconfident in his ability to not be taken down. He would either get stripped for a fumble or throw a pick and last year he also turned a corner in protecting the ball better... lot more dump-offs too.

rebelfan1966
11-21-2012, 11:42 AM
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.

Better at embarrassing his team and fans? Better at being stupid? Putting himself in bar restrooms with young girls? You can have Ben.... I think the Giants made the best choice in the draft.

rebelfan1966
11-21-2012, 11:44 AM
had guy who sold dirty water dogs out of the back of his station wagon for like 20 years at park by my house. He knew all the kids in town and their siblings. watched us all grow up. His name was Larry......and Larry was Elite.

That guys sounds like HOF material to me......

Sarcasman
11-21-2012, 11:49 AM
35% of starting qbs are elite? I don't think that is the literal definition


There is no objective nor quantitative definition to elite, that's what makes this thread hilarious.

Dwinsballgames
11-21-2012, 11:51 AM
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4922780597290716&pid=15.1

ImElectric2
11-21-2012, 12:05 PM
Century mark on the way?

gumby74
11-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.

More and more it seems like 2011 Eli was an aberration. Ben's been performing at a higher level more consistently and for longer. Personally, I needed to see one more great season from Eli before I lumped him into Ben's category. That applied to everyone - Cruz, JPP, etc. I needed one more year.

After 2011, those that thought Eli was better certainly had a case - especially if they felt that "good" Eli would continue playing at a high level. But now, with Eli struggling and having a sub-par year, putting Eli in Ben's category is becoming more and more far fetched.

For arguments sake, if Eli turns it on again at the end of the year, it will be same story of inconsistency that has plagued him throughout his career.

I expect Eli to have a big game tomorrow. He's due. And he tends to play the best against the better teams.

Rudyy
11-21-2012, 12:42 PM
More and more it seems like 2011 Eli was an aberration. Ben's been performing at a higher level more consistently and for longer. Personally, I needed to see one more great season from Eli before I lumped him into Ben's category. That applied to everyone - Cruz, JPP, etc. I needed one more year.After 2011, those that thought Eli was better certainly had a case - especially if they felt that "good" Eli would continue playing at a high level. But now, with Eli struggling and having a sub-par year, putting Eli in Ben's category is becoming more and more far fetched.For arguments sake, if Eli turns it on again at the end of the year, it will be same story of inconsistency that has plagued him throughout his career.I expect Eli to have a big game tomorrow. He's due. And he tends to play the best against the better teams.We play tomorrow?

YATittle1962
11-21-2012, 12:48 PM
stop nit - pickin' CC , i'm not crushing on Hoss, just pointing out that he was
merely a serviceable QB and i just strongly believe with Simms it would not have
come down to Scott Norwood 's "wide right".

ELI > Carr = Simms > Hoss.

not so fast there .....

there were plays in that 1990 playoff run that Hoss made with his legs that were game changing

some in the SB game as well

plays I am not sure Simms would have made

do I think Hostetler was a better QB than Simms? absolutely not

but that playoff run may have looked a bit different without him in there

that 49er team was tough ....and Phil struggled a bit against them earlier that season

thats not to say Phil would have lost that game......but Hoss did a great job fighting for first downs with his legs when he needed to ......and threw some balls dead on the money when he needed to as well

even with Phil in that SB game it very well may have come down to a FG......earlier in the season the Giants lost to the Bills 17-13 in a game where Simms and Hoss both struggled

I think Hoss even looked a bit better than Simms that day coming off the bench cold as an ice cube

gumby74
11-21-2012, 03:20 PM
More and more it seems like 2011 Eli was an aberration. Ben's been performing at a higher level more consistently and for longer. Personally, I needed to see one more great season from Eli before I lumped him into Ben's category. That applied to everyone - Cruz, JPP, etc. I needed one more year.

After 2011, those that thought Eli was better certainly had a case - especially if they felt that "good" Eli would continue playing at a high level. But now, with Eli struggling and having a sub-par year, putting Eli in Ben's category is becoming more and more far fetched.

For arguments sake, if Eli turns it on again at the end of the year, it will be same story of inconsistency that has plagued him throughout his career.

I expect Eli to have a big game tomorrow. He's due. And he tends to play the best against the better teams.


We play tomorrow?

Haha. Sunday can't come fast enough.

Morehead State
11-21-2012, 03:22 PM
stop nit - pickin' CC , i'm not crushing on Hoss, just pointing out that he was
merely a serviceable QB and i just strongly believe with Simms it would not have
come down to Scott Norwood 's "wide right".

ELI > Carr = Simms > Hoss.
May i ask who you are that you know my initials?

Rudyy
11-21-2012, 03:43 PM
Haha. Sunday can't come fast enough.Word

zimonami
11-21-2012, 04:02 PM
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.
I think there is a plot to get this thread to 100 pages, and Morehead must have money on it with this most recent volley... instigating is a 10 yard penalty.... Non-reviewable.

GCGiant
11-21-2012, 04:45 PM
For arguments sake, if Eli turns it on again at the end of the year, it will be same story of inconsistency that has plagued him throughout his career.

Yes...Eli has been plagued throughout his career. So far the plague has netted 2 Lombardis. I bet Romo is wishing he could catch the plague.

stormblue
11-21-2012, 04:56 PM
May i ask who you are that you know my initials?

sorry , i can't divulge that information over the webernet.

YATittle1962
11-21-2012, 05:22 PM
Right now...Ben IS better than Eli.

Now let the games begin.

right now Ben is on the sideline until further notice

Charlie Batch anyone?

stormblue
11-21-2012, 06:08 PM
not so fast there .....

there were plays in that 1990 playoff run that Hoss made with his legs that were game changing

some in the SB game as well

plays I am not sure Simms would have made

do I think Hostetler was a better QB than Simms? absolutely not

but that playoff run may have looked a bit different without him in there

that 49er team was tough ....and Phil struggled a bit against them earlier that season

thats not to say Phil would have lost that game......but Hoss did a great job fighting for first downs with his legs when he needed to ......and threw some balls dead on the money when he needed to as well

even with Phil in that SB game it very well may have come down to a FG......earlier in the season the Giants lost to the Bills 17-13 in a game where Simms and Hoss both struggled

I think Hoss even looked a bit better than Simms that day coming off the bench cold as an ice cube

i'm sorry YA , but we have had previous QB discussions and i can't go there with you.
it is pointless , your idol threw more interceptions than touchdowns and i therefor disagree with your QB judgement....
not to say that you are wrong.....just saying we obviously disagree on this one also......
so there is no point for us to converse any more on this matter.

i think Simms woulda kicked their ice-bucket , you don't ......that's fine.

YATittle1962
11-21-2012, 06:23 PM
i'm sorry YA , but we have had previous QB discussions and i can't go there with you.
it is pointless , your idol threw more interceptions than touchdowns and i therefor disagree with your QB judgement....
not to say that you are wrong.....just saying we obviously disagree on this one also......
so there is no point for us to converse any more on this matter.

i think Simms woulda kicked their ice-bucket , you don't ......that's fine.

why didn't he kick their ice bucket a few weeks earlier ?


...and look at YAs 3 yr stats with the Giants because that is all I judge him by ....I didn't even know he existed when he was a 49er

his last season is a throw away.....he could barely walk

he was fantastic as a Giant

bigjeep
11-21-2012, 06:55 PM
why didn't he kick their ice bucket a few weeks earlier ?


...and look at YAs 3 yr stats with the Giants because that is all I judge him by ....I didn't even know he existed when he was a 49er

his last season is a throw away.....he could barely walk

he was fantastic as a Giant

And I agree with you! I never heard of Tittle until he came to the Giants! Sadly, we ran into the Packers twice. I still consider the Lombardi Packers as the best team I have ever watched to this day. The Bears game I was positive we would win ---- until Y.A. got hurt!

stormblue
11-21-2012, 06:56 PM
why didn't he kick their ice bucket a few weeks earlier ?


...and look at YAs 3 yr stats with the Giants because that is all I judge him by ....I didn't even know he existed when he was a 49er

his last season is a throw away.....he could barely walk

he was fantastic as a Giant


well , then i can only judge how Simms would have played in a super bowl by his only other attempt at it.
the only question you need to ask is would you have started a healthy Simms over Hoss.

YATittle1962
11-21-2012, 07:25 PM
well , then i can only judge how Simms would have played in a super bowl by his only other attempt at it.
the only question you need to ask is would you have started a healthy Simms over Hoss.

absolutely

alentown pa
11-21-2012, 09:15 PM
absolutelyWould also like to remind everyone who supports Simms over Eli talking about all he had to overcome in terms of the coaches fans and media. Nobody was tougher mentally than hoss. What that guy endured during his path to super Bowl 25 is amazing.

Morehead State
11-21-2012, 10:10 PM
Would also like to remind everyone who supports Simms over Eli talking about all he had to overcome in terms of the coaches fans and media. Nobody was tougher mentally than hoss. What that guy endured during his path to super Bowl 25 is amazing.
OK I respectfully disagree with that. He didn't have the stomach for Bill Parcells. He said that he told his wife that he wanted to quit the game in the middle of the 90 season because he wasn't starting. Like he should start over Phil Simms.
I always thought he was weak in that respect.

Roosevelt
11-21-2012, 10:49 PM
There is no objective nor quantitative definition to elite, that's what makes this thread hilarious.

That's like having trouble understanding what the meaning of is is. ;)

Generation Eli
11-21-2012, 11:36 PM
In my mind, there are only 3 ELITES

Brady
Peyton
Brees

The rest are either really good or just good. Some of those have their ELITE moments

If after 8-10 years, you are not considered a dead lock HOF, you CAN NOT be considered ELITE. Thats my take on what ELITE is

Each person has their own measurements, mine does not require you to win a super bowl. Lets not forget, this is a team sport. Eli doesnt have those superbowls without his defense stepping up and those two miraculous catches. To define a player as ELITE simply on a single quarter of play and what hes done in the Super Bowl in the final minutes of the game is NOT enough.

Im an Eli supporter, hes my guy until he isnt a QB anymore. I've seen the likes of Montana/Marino play the position so I've seen what a GREAT QB looks like.

Eli has flashes of that, he then does his best act to dimish it. He should still have another 7-8 years left in him so there is plenty of time for him to get himself into that discussion as far as Im concerned. At the end of the day, that my take. I dont need anyone telling me different. To each his own!

Sarcasman
11-22-2012, 12:55 AM
That's like having trouble understanding what the meaning of is is. ;)


Exactly, Mr President.

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 05:24 PM
Bump. We can't let this thread die, even though it's pointless.

Marvelousmik
11-22-2012, 05:40 PM
Bump. We can't let this thread die, even though it's pointless.

did you see the texans game?

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 05:41 PM
did you see the texans game?That game was ridiculous. Lions were robbed.

Marvelousmik
11-22-2012, 05:42 PM
That game was ridiculous. Lions were robbed.

how about that boy andre top 5 johnson?:D

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 05:44 PM
how about that boy andre top 5 johnson?:DYOU MEAN ANDRE "I'M NOT INJURED" JOHNSON? YEAH, HE WAS GOOD.

Marvelousmik
11-22-2012, 05:47 PM
YOU MEAN ANDRE "I'M NOT INJURED" JOHNSON? YEAH, HE WAS GOOD.

yeah last year he missed basically the whole season. WHen healthy that guy is something special.
On a side note the redskins defense is looking horrible so far.

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 05:51 PM
yeah last year he missed basically the whole season. WHen healthy that guy is something special.On a side note the redskins defense is looking horrible so far.Was he battling two injuries at the same time? And yeah, I feel like Washington is gonna let me down today :( hope not.

Marvelousmik
11-22-2012, 05:54 PM
Was he battling two injuries at the same time? And yeah, I feel like Washington is gonna let me down today :( hope not.

He had a season ending injury. But right hes on pace to having another 1500+ yard season. just like the 3 seasons before he got injured last year.I thinkthe redskins could win if RG3's offense doesnt let him down. Theres already been a dropped pass that would have been a first

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 05:56 PM
He had a season ending injury. But right hes on pace to having another 1500+ yard season. just like the 3 seasons before he got injured last year.I thinkthe redskins could win if RG3's offense doesnt let him down. Theres already been a dropped pass that would have been a firstOh that's nice. Hakeem is still a top 5 receiver when healthy. Redskins D started to tighten up a bit, so that's good. The offense needs to get going.

Marvelousmik
11-22-2012, 06:10 PM
Oh that's nice. Hakeem is still a top 5 receiver when healthy. Redskins D started to tighten up a bit, so that's good. The offense needs to get going.

So is johnson, larry, tron, aj green and white. I guess nicks would have to be 5.1 or 5.2. If Dallas loses we will have a 2 game lead if we can beat green bay. But when you got guys fielding punts in the end zone and running it back out to the 7, i dont know if theres much hope lol

Harooni
11-22-2012, 06:12 PM
89 pages really??? Lol.

Marvelousmik
11-22-2012, 06:13 PM
89 pages really??? Lol.

the goal is 100 before sunday

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 06:14 PM
89 pages really??? Lol.Fascinating isn't it?

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 06:15 PM
So is johnson, larry, tron, aj green and white. I guess nicks would have to be 5.1 or 5.2. If Dallas loses we will have a 2 game lead if we can beat green bay. But when you got guys fielding punts in the end zone and running it back out to the 7, i dont know if theres much hope lolNicks would be #5 out of all of them. And Banks is stupid as hell for that.

Marvelousmik
11-22-2012, 07:03 PM
:D All i can do is smile right now. R-G-3 you know me!!

Rudyy
11-22-2012, 07:06 PM
:D All i can do is smile right now. R-G-3 you know me!!Feels weird rooting for the Skins, but I know they won't make it far with that atrocious pass D. I'd rather bury the Cowboys in a deep hole.

bigjeep
11-26-2012, 08:12 AM
"When Hakeem Nicks stretched over the goal line with his right arm on a third-quarter pass that was first ruled down and then changed to a 13-yard TD, Manning had the 200th touchdown pass of his career. That moved him past Phil Simms as the franchise leader"

CASE CLOSED!

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:41 AM
"When Hakeem Nicks stretched over the goal line with his right arm on a third-quarter pass that was first ruled down and then changed to a 13-yard TD, Manning had the 200th touchdown pass of his career. That moved him past Phil Simms as the franchise leader"

CASE CLOSED!
The case is very much open and always will be.

Comparing players from different eras with one stat is complete folly.

GCGiant
11-26-2012, 10:04 AM
The case is very much open and always will be.

Comparing players from different eras with one stat is complete folly.

Let it go, dude. I had to accept that Drew Brees was a better QB than Archie Manning...you can do this. It was inevitable. Phil Simms will always be a great, respectable guy and QB...someone all fans can look-up to and remember fondly...but from this day on he will walk in Eli's shadow.

Gimaniac
11-26-2012, 10:07 AM
The case is very much open and always will be.

Comparing players from different eras with one stat is complete folly.

A lot of football left in Eli's career, if he finishes with 300+, the folly will fade. Hasn't happened yet.

NYGFaninILL
11-26-2012, 10:12 AM
Are we still talking about this?

Simms is one of the NYG Greats, let's not sully his reputation as a Giant because a reporter trapped him into a question just to get a rise out of us fans.

Let it go. sheesh...

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 10:21 AM
Let it go, dude. I had to accept that Drew Brees was a better QB than Archie Manning...you can do this. It was inevitable. Phil Simms will always be a great, respectable guy and QB...someone all fans can look-up to and remember fondly...but from this day on he will walk in Eli's shadow.
No way.

bigjeep
11-26-2012, 10:40 AM
The case is very much open and always will be.

Comparing players from different eras with one stat is complete folly.

You must turn away from the past and except the here and now! Eli is the best Giants QB of all time! No one can shine his shoes!

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 10:46 AM
You must turn away from the past and except the here and now! Eli is the best Giants QB of all time! No one can shine his shoes!
Agree to disagee. Phil was a just a better football player.

Roosevelt
11-26-2012, 10:48 AM
Congrats to Eli on becoming our team's all-time touchdown leader, but let's not kid ourselves about what we saw last night.

Eli threw the ball terribly for the most part. The missed TD pass to Hyno was inexcusable. Something's just not right with him right now.

But I do have to give him kudos on that run where he lowered his shoulder. While I don't want to see him taking on people with his throwing shoulder, I did like the toughness he displayed there. It was almost as if he needed that contact to get him out of his funk.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 10:53 AM
Congrats to Eli on becoming our team's all-time touchdown leader, but let's not kid ourselves about what we saw last night.

Eli threw the ball terribly for the most part. The missed TD pass to Hyno was inexcusable. Something's just not right with him right now.

But I do have to give him kudos on that run where he lowered his shoulder. While I don't want to see him taking on people with his throwing shoulder, I did like the toughness he displayed there. It was almost as if he needed that contact to get him out of his funk.

I want to see the "good Eli" from here on this season. He's unfortunately gone back to his inconsistent ways this season. Lets hope "bad Eli" doesn't show himself any more this year.
I honestly don't know if I've ever seen an NFL QB with such a high beta.

GCGiant
11-26-2012, 10:54 AM
No way.

Kudos. I hope you realize that I was trying to pull a MH and deliberately get ol MH to deliver a hostile reply but you didn't bite. FWIW...Like I said before...I really don't care who considers who the best or who in fact is the best. I enjoy the today and the yesterday.

EliDaMANning
11-26-2012, 10:54 AM
He missed a wide open pass to Hynoski, the world must be ending soon!!!!

OMG!! Wait, in the same game, the so called best QB in the game threw a pass right at Webster. He also held onto the ball forever and took unecessary sacks. When he finally threw the ball away it was to end the half instead of taking a shot to the end zone.

LOL. Rodgers got schooled. Oh by the way, Simms is old news. He will forever be in the rear view mirror of Eli in Giants history.

gumby74
11-26-2012, 10:55 AM
I want to see the "good Eli" from here on this season. He's unfortunately gone back to his inconsistent ways this season. Lets hope "bad Eli" doesn't show himself any more this year.
I honestly don't know if I've ever seen an NFL QB with such a high beta.

Jake Plummer for a couple years.

EliDaMANning
11-26-2012, 10:56 AM
I really don't care who considers who the best or who in fact is the best. I enjoy the today and the yesterday.I do and when Eli wins his 3rd SB this year I want to make sure everyone agrees that he's not only the best Giants QB ever, but arguably the GOAT.

VBGiantsFan
11-26-2012, 10:57 AM
Give Eli credit in the post game interviews. I'm sure he is well aware of what Simms said, and when asked about how it felt to hold the all time TD record, he made mention of great QBs including Simms, saying it was an honor to be mentioned in the same sentence with those guys.

Simms can take his shots, but Eli will remain all class.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 10:57 AM
He missed a wide open pass to Hynoski, the world must be ending soon!!!!

OMG!! Wait, in the same game, the so called best QB in the game threw a pass right at Webster. He also held onto the ball forever and took unecessary sacks. When he finally threw the ball away it was to end the half instead of taking a shot to the end zone.

LOL. Rodgers got schooled. Oh by the way, Simms is old news. He will forever be in the rear view mirror of Eli in Giants history.

"Missed an open Hynoski"? He threw it to Hackensack.

Anyway no biggie. He made a nice throw to Randle for a TD.

EliDaMANning
11-26-2012, 10:58 AM
"Missed an open Hynoski"? He threw it to Hackensack.

Anyway no biggie. He made a nice throw to Randle for a TD.That throw was inexcusable.

Just like the Rodgers throw to Webster as well as countless other throws at his receivers feet.


Eli took Rodgers to the woodshed. RG3 and Brees will soon join him.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 10:58 AM
Give Eli credit in the post game interviews. I'm sure he is well aware of what Simms said, and when asked about how it felt to hold the all time TD record, he made mention of great QBs including Simms, saying it was an honor to be mentioned in the same sentence with those guys.

Simms can take his shots, but Eli will remain all class.
Phil didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.

NYGFaninILL
11-26-2012, 11:00 AM
Phil didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.

I'm with you, everybody is saying how much Simms "Disrespected Eli and the Giants" but if you saw the interview, and not just a reporters version of what he said, then you would realize that Simms was trapped into saying that.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 11:02 AM
I'm with you, everybody is saying how much Simms "Disrespected Eli and the Giants" but if you saw the interview, and not just a reporters version of what he said, then you would realize that Simms was trapped into saying that.
Yes but to some he is a blasphemist and will now ride the B line to hell.

VBGiantsFan
11-26-2012, 11:08 AM
Phil didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.

Sure, all he did was express his opinion. He is also a football analyst and commentator and has to expand his career. There are plenty of reasons he why he said what he said.

However, while Simms has moved on, most of us are still Giants fans and expect loyalty to our team. Maybe it's an unreasonable expectation. Honestly, the only guy consistenly pro-Giants has been Michael Strahan, hence why he may be the single most beloved Giant.

Whether it was a shot at Eli or not, Simms comment rubbed the fans the wrong way, and rightfully so. The fact is, he wasn't belittling the level of play and talent of a journeyman football player, he was talking about a 2x superbowl champion fresh of a champtionship LAST year, Pro-Bowler, and MVP (superbowl).

NYGFaninILL
11-26-2012, 11:12 AM
Sure, all he did was express his opinion. He is also a football analyst and commentator and has to expand his career. There are plenty of reasons he why he said what he said.

However, while Simms has moved on, most of us are still Giants fans and expect loyalty to our team. Maybe it's an unreasonable expectation. Honestly, the only guy consistenly pro-Giants has been Michael Strahan, hence why he may be the single most beloved Giant.

Whether it was a shot at Eli or not, Simms comment rubbed the fans the wrong way, and rightfully so. The fact is, he wasn't belittling the level of play and talent of a journeyman football player, he was talking about a 2x superbowl champion fresh of a champtionship LAST year, Pro-Bowler, and MVP (superbowl).

And if you saw, or even read the article, you would understand that he gave Eli his credit for all he's done. Phil Simms is one of the only commentators to remain loyal to the Giants.

And if he was to say that Eli is the best QB in the league right now, he'd lose credibility.

Gimaniac
11-26-2012, 11:13 AM
Phil didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.

That's like saying Tiki didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
Sure, all he did was express his opinion. He is also a football analyst and commentator and has to expand his career. There are plenty of reasons he why he said what he said.

However, while Simms has moved on, most of us are still Giants fans and expect loyalty to our team. Maybe it's an unreasonable expectation. Honestly, the only guy consistenly pro-Giants has been Michael Strahan, hence why he may be the single most beloved Giant.

Whether it was a shot at Eli or not, Simms comment rubbed the fans the wrong way, and rightfully so. The fact is, he wasn't belittling the level of play and talent of a journeyman football player, he was talking about a 2x superbowl champion fresh of a champtionship LAST year, Pro-Bowler, and MVP (superbowl).

How dare he!
The last thing we need in the world is a little honesty.

No sir....we must march in lock step (or should I say "goosestep") with the masses of the obedient . We must reduce those who challenge his greatness to the rubble of history, and send them eastward in railcars, never to be heard from again.


Or we could........ FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!!

NYGFaninILL
11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
That's like saying Tiki didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.




Woah, What Simms did and what Tiki did were on two different levels. Tiki badmouthed everything about the Giants from Eli to TC to further his young commentating career. Simms was asked what he thought the definition of Elite was and then was trapped into saying what he did by the interviewer. In fact, he gave Eli all the credit in the world in that interview too, but like most people, you only focus on the part that you can argue with, so get your facts straight!!!!

GameTime
11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
That's like saying Tiki didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.




dont even mention Tiki and Simms in that regard in the same breath....
way off base there.....

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 11:23 AM
Woah, What Simms did and what Tiki did were on two different levels. Tiki badmouthed everything about the Giants from Eli to TC to further his young commentating career. Simms was asked what he thought the definition of Elite was and then was trapped into saying what he did by the interviewer. In fact, he gave Eli all the credit in the world in that interview too, but like most people, you only focus on the part that you can argue with, so get your facts straight!!!!
Not only that but Tiki violated locker room confidences with his comments. His commenst were a pathetic attempt to mock Eli. And he clearly did it out of resentment.
Thats a far cry from objective analysis about what is and what isn't an "elite" QB.
Some of these guys crack me up.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 11:27 AM
Agree to disagee. Phil was a just a better football player.

Just wondering what makes you say that? Eli will own ever passing record for the Giants when he is finished, has won two Super Bowls and two Super Bowl MVP awards and has led us to multiple conference titles. I think Simms was a great player but he was injured a fair amount and also had his early struggles, 1980 he threw 15 td and 19 picks and only completed 48 percent of his passes. The next year he threw 11 td and 9 picks but still only completed 54 percent of his throws. He then was injured on and off for a season and a half, missing one entire season. He was then benched, came into a game against the eagles and hurt his thumb and was out again for the season. If you do not remember, he was pretty unpopular in the ny area. It was at this time that an assistant coach convinced Simms to spend more time studying, watching film, and learning the teams offense/audibles. It was after this that Simms started to produce at a much higher level, going on to be voted to the pro bowl, get MVP pro bowl honors (with three touchdowns) and had his best seasons in 85 and 86 and an amazing Super Bowl performance gaining him the Super Bowl MVP award. After the 86 season he had some highs and some lows, playing a pretty bad game in the playoffs against the rams in 89 and then posting the highest qb rating and having a great year in 90 before breaking his foot. He was injured on and off for the rest of his career posting one more great season in 93 only to have shoulder surgery after the season. He was released by the Giants that offseason and retired. Simms only completed over 60 percent of his passes twice in 92 and 93, had four seasons with more or the same int as td throws, and only had a qb rating of over 80 6 times in his 14 seasons. In comparison, Eli has never missed a game, has completed 60 percent or more of his passes 5 our of 9 seasons, and has only one season throwing more int than td, his rookie year. There are a lot of other intangibles you can use as well, the evolution of the nfl defense, the rules changing, the physicality of the players...the list goes on and on, and can be used in ways to support claims off each qb. I understand your point of it being a different era but the injury situation and numbers, at least to me, make it a no brainier...Eli is the best qb to ever play for the giants in my mind and you are certainly untitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what leads you to the outcome that Simms was/is the better qb of the two?

VBGiantsFan
11-26-2012, 11:27 AM
How dare he!
The last thing we need in the world is a little honesty.

No sir....we must march in lock step (or should I say "goosestep") with the masses of the obedient . We must reduce those who challenge his greatness to the rubble of history, and send them eastward in railcars, never to be heard from again.


Or we could........ FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!!

Not sure how to respond to your sardonic post or your reference to railcars (Holocaust) which I find offensive, other than to say that as fans, our expectations from previously great players is to show some loyalty to their team. He was honest, sure, and his honestly felt like a slight. Amani Toomer was honest when he said he through Romo was a better QB than Eli, and it felt like a slight. I'm not saying we should muzzle Simms, simply that his comment was a slight to Eli, and based on Eli's accomplishments, unjust.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 11:38 AM
Not sure how to respond to your sardonic post or your reference to railcars (Holocaust) which I find offensive, other than to say that as fans, our expectations from previously great players is to show some loyalty to their team. He was honest, sure, and his honestly felt like a slight. Amani Toomer was honest when he said he through Romo was a better QB than Eli, and it felt like a slight. I'm not saying we should muzzle Simms, simply that his comment was a slight to Eli, and based on Eli's accomplishments, unjust.
Who did it feel like a slight to? You? A couple other fans?
It was far from a slight. The ultimate truth is that Eli is tremendously inconsistent. You just don't know which Eli will show up from game to game.
Thats not elite. Thats a guy who can show flashes of greatness one week and then look like a rookie who's never played an NFL game the next. I thought he had lost some of that inconsistency after last year. But in the 4 game stretch starting with Wash. we saw play that reminded us all of his rookie season.
Now he's a fine player, and he will accumulate some great stats in passing yards and TD's, solely because of longevity, because his year to year numbers aren't that great.

Now that's my opinion. It seems to be Phil's opinion as well. I'm sure its the opinion of many observers of the NFL. You can agree or disagree with that. That's the way the world goes round. But its NOT an insult to Eli to have this view. And to go after Phil as if he has some axe to grind because he has the view he has is not supported by any fact. Its just a kneejerk reaction by those who question anyone's motives who DARE to question Eli's greatness.

If I offended you I apologize. It was a poor attempt at humor. But this "attack anyone who questions Eli" attitude by some here has to be challenged.

EliDaMANning
11-26-2012, 11:42 AM
Just wondering what makes you say that? Eli will own ever passing record for the Giants when he is finished, has won two Super Bowls and two Super Bowl MVP awards and has led us to multiple conference titles. I think Simms was a great player but he was injured a fair amount and also had his early struggles, 1980 he threw 15 td and 19 picks and only completed 48 percent of his passes. The next year he threw 11 td and 9 picks but still only completed 54 percent of his throws. He then was injured on and off for a season and a half, missing one entire season. He was then benched, came into a game against the eagles and hurt his thumb and was out again for the season. If you do not remember, he was pretty unpopular in the ny area. It was at this time that an assistant coach convinced Simms to spend more time studying, watching film, and learning the teams offense/audibles. It was after this that Simms started to produce at a much higher level, going on to be voted to the pro bowl, get MVP pro bowl honors (with three touchdowns) and had his best seasons in 85 and 86 and an amazing Super Bowl performance gaining him the Super Bowl MVP award. After the 86 season he had some highs and some lows, playing a pretty bad game in the playoffs against the rams in 89 and then posting the highest qb rating and having a great year in 90 before breaking his foot. He was injured on and off for the rest of his career posting one more great season in 93 only to have shoulder surgery after the season. He was released by the Giants that offseason and retired. Simms only completed over 60 percent of his passes twice in 92 and 93, had four seasons with more or the same int as td throws, and only had a qb rating of over 80 6 times in his 14 seasons. In comparison, Eli has never missed a game, has completed 60 percent or more of his passes 5 our of 9 seasons, and has only one season throwing more int than td, his rookie year. There are a lot of other intangibles you can use as well, the evolution of the nfl defense, the rules changing, the physicality of the players...the list goes on and on, and can be used in ways to support claims off each qb. I understand your point of it being a different era but the injury situation and numbers, at least to me, make it a no brainier...Eli is the best qb to ever play for the giants in my mind and you are certainly untitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what leads you to the outcome that Simms was/is the better qb of the two?Good points. Saying Simms is better used to be an opinion. Now it is just a flat out incorrect statement.

Saying Danny Kennell was a better QB than Simms is also an opinion.

VBGiantsFan
11-26-2012, 11:48 AM
Who did it feel like a slight to? You? A couple other fans?
It was far from a slight. The ultimate truth is that Eli is tremendously inconsistent. You just don't know which Eli will show up from game to game.
Thats not elite. Thats a guy who can show flashes of greatness one week and then look like a rookie who's never played an NFL game the next. I thought he had lost some of that inconsistency after last year. But in the 4 game stretch starting with Wash. we saw play that reminded us all of his rookie season.
Now he's a fine player, and he will accumulate some great stats in passing yards and TD's, solely because of longevity, because his year to year numbers aren't that great.

Now that's my opinion. It seems to be Phil's opinion as well. I'm sure its the opinion of many observers of the NFL. You can agree or disagree with that. That's the way the world goes round. But its NOT an insult to Eli to have this view. And to go after Phil as if he has some axe to grind because he has the view he has is not supported by any fact. Its just a kneejerk reaction by those who question anyone's motives who DARE to question Eli's greatness.

If I offended you I apologize. It was a poor attempt at humor. But this "attack anyone who questions Eli" attitude by some here has to be challenged.

I think the misunderstanding here is, the fans are not upset by random commentators saying Eli is not elite, the fans are upset that it's a New York Giant great saying it. Simms matters to us, and we expect him to be like us, loyal to his team. Now, obviously he doesn't have to be, but the real slight is not that someone said Eli is not elite, it's that Simms said it. As fans, we expect more from our Ex players. His timing is also such that he says it when Eli is having a down few games. I didn't hear him say that at the beginning of the season.

Roosevelt
11-26-2012, 11:52 AM
Not sure how to respond to your sardonic post or your reference to railcars (Holocaust) which I find offensive, other than to say that as fans, our expectations from previously great players is to show some loyalty to their team. He was honest, sure, and his honestly felt like a slight. Amani Toomer was honest when he said he through Romo was a better QB than Eli, and it felt like a slight. I'm not saying we should muzzle Simms, simply that his comment was a slight to Eli, and based on Eli's accomplishments, unjust.

Phil said he believed Eli was HOF'er, but not amongst the elite because he cannot win games on his own.

Maybe somebody who took offense to Phil's comments can explain how calling Eli a HOF'er is slighting him.

This idea that Phil needs to call Eli one of the greatest QB's of all-time or he's taking a shot at him and the Giants is just ridiculous.

Eli has his moments, but he's definitely not amongst the greatest QB's that I've seen play.

Roosevelt
11-26-2012, 11:53 AM
I think the misunderstanding here is, the fans are not upset by random commentators saying Eli is not elite, the fans are upset that it's a New York Giant great saying it. Simms matters to us, and we expect him to be like us, loyal to his team. Now, obviously he doesn't have to be, but the real slight is not that someone said Eli is not elite, it's that Simms said it. As fans, we expect more from our Ex players. His timing is also such that he says it when Eli is having a down few games. I didn't hear him say that at the beginning of the season.

Opinions vary, especially when a player's game is up and down.

VBGiantsFan
11-26-2012, 11:55 AM
Phil said he believed Eli was HOF'er, but just amongst the elite because he cannot win games on his own.

Maybe somebody he took offense to Phil's comments can explain how calling Eli a HOF'er is slighting him.

This idea that Phil needs to call Eli one of the greatest QB's of all-time or he's taking a shot at him and the Giants is just ridiculous.

Eli has his moments, but he's definitely not amongst the greatest QB's that I've seen play.

It's hard to understand how Simms can call Eli a HoFer yet say he's not elite. It's almost like a backhanded complement.

"I guess he'll make the hall of fame because his team was so good around him and they made his stats look good, but he wouldn't get there himself."

If you're a a hall of famer, you're elite IMO.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 11:55 AM
Good points. Saying Simms is better used to be an opinion. Now it is just a flat out incorrect statement.

Saying Danny Kennell was a better QB than Simms is also an opinion.
So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.

VBGiantsFan
11-26-2012, 11:56 AM
Opinions vary, especially when a player's game is up and down.

I agree, but I would rather hear Simms or anyone else say that about Eli when things are going well too. I guess like fans, commentators are fickle and say things spur of the moment as well. Give Eli 3 weeks like yesterday, would Simms change his mind?

Gimaniac
11-26-2012, 11:59 AM
dont even mention Tiki and Simms in that regard in the same breath....
way off base there.....

Tiki said Eli was not a leader.
Simms said Eli was not Elite.

Don't seem that much different.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 11:59 AM
I think the misunderstanding here is, the fans are not upset by random commentators saying Eli is not elite, the fans are upset that it's a New York Giant great saying it. Simms matters to us, and we expect him to be like us, loyal to his team. Now, obviously he doesn't have to be, but the real slight is not that someone said Eli is not elite, it's that Simms said it. As fans, we expect more from our Ex players. His timing is also such that he says it when Eli is having a down few games. I didn't hear him say that at the beginning of the season.
No one is more loyal to the New York Giants than me and I don't think Eli is "elite". (whatever that is)
I think he's an outstanding player who is very inconsistent.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 12:01 PM
Tiki said Eli was not a leader.
Simms said Eli was not Elite.

Don't seem that much different.
You're being ridiculous.
If you can't see the difference between Tiki's slam and Phil's comments then we are wasting our time talking about it.

EliDaMANning
11-26-2012, 12:05 PM
So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.Stop talking about rules and regulations all the time. There were QB in his time that threw for much better numbers also.

He had an excellent coach while Eli works with an incompetant OC. All I read in your post were a bunch of "IFS." Get over it dude. Nobody is dissing Simms here, we are just clearly stating the facts. There is no argument for Simms being better than Eli, only a bunch of what if scenarios you presented.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 12:06 PM
So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.

My view is supported by a bunch of stats not made by it, I watched Simms play and Eli play and in my opinion Eli is the superior player. Your one and only point is always about the different era to back up your claim. If you use that logic, it is basically saying that the game has changed so much that comparisons can only be made to strengthen your argument, ie you can not compare Simms to Manning because it is a different time. What if Manning played during the time Simms did, do you think he would have preformed worse than Simms? Eli played in a run first offense for many years, and your statement about comparing the qualities of the players is spot on. Compare the fact that an assistant coach had to convince Simms to put more time in learning the offense and the audibles to Manning being a film room and preparation junky and I think that speaks volumes about some of their qualities. Is the only reason you think Simms is better because he played with different rules at a different time?

Ruttiger711
11-26-2012, 12:08 PM
Did Simms say who he thought WAS elite?Was Rodgers one of them? The ability to win a game ON THEIR OWN as the criteria for being elite is a pretty high one.

Rudyy
11-26-2012, 12:09 PM
You don't win games on your own, you don't lose games on your own.

Gimaniac
11-26-2012, 12:09 PM
You're being ridiculous.
If you can't see the difference between Tiki's slam and Phil's comments then we are wasting our time talking about it.

Actually Eli really wasn't the leader he is now at the time Tiki made his comments. I didn't actually disagree with it.

Leader and Elite are both subjective comments. If its a slam, they are both a slam.

You are ignoring the fact that Simms could have kept his comments to himself the way Tiki should have.

GameTime
11-26-2012, 12:10 PM
so Simms doesnt think Eli is elite....
so what. Rodney Harrison thinks he is one of the best QBs in the NFL....
Toomer thinks Romo is better

etc.....just another opinion......Why do so many get their panties in a bunch......

Gimaniac
11-26-2012, 12:12 PM
so Simms doesnt think Eli is elite....
so what. Rodney Harrison thinks he is one of the best QBs in the NFL....
Toomer thinks Romo is better

etc.....just another opinion......Why do so many get their panties in a bunch......

Why no mention of Tiki not thinking Eli is a leader?

GameTime
11-26-2012, 12:13 PM
Why no mention of Tiki not thinking Eli is a leader?
wasnt going to go through all the "opinions" of Eli...

but you are right...Tiki thinks Eli wasnt a good leader back then. He thinks differently now though

VBGiantsFan
11-26-2012, 12:22 PM
so Simms doesnt think Eli is elite....
so what. Rodney Harrison thinks he is one of the best QBs in the NFL....
Toomer thinks Romo is better

etc.....just another opinion......Why do so many get their panties in a bunch......

Because we don't care about what other commentators say, it's only painful to hear it from EX Giants players. We want our players we were loyal to for years to be loyal to their team.

Again, it's not like they are slighting a guy who has been mediocre and only has a few accomplishments. Eli has 2 Superbowls, 2 Superbowl MVPs, and has been a Probowler. These EX Giants are going after a guy who has shown he belongs with the "elite" talks. Not to mention, last year he had the greatest 4th quarter season in history.

My problem with Simms quote is that he said it after a bad 3 games for Eli. He certainly didn't say it at the beginning of the season.

Roosevelt
11-26-2012, 12:31 PM
It's hard to understand how Simms can call Eli a HoFer yet say he's not elite. It's almost like a backhanded complement.

"I guess he'll make the hall of fame because his team was so good around him and they made his stats look good, but he wouldn't get there himself."

If you're a a hall of famer, you're elite IMO.

That's a valid argument.

But in essence Phil said Eli is a great player but he's not amongst greatest of the greats. It's truly not a slight.

It's just like saying Phil may not be a HOF'er. He was still damn good and the fact that he's been nominated a few times tells you that.

Roosevelt
11-26-2012, 12:37 PM
I agree, but I would rather hear Simms or anyone else say that about Eli when things are going well too. I guess like fans, commentators are fickle and say things spur of the moment as well. Give Eli 3 weeks like yesterday, would Simms change his mind?

I think everyone thinks highly of Eli now. Phil called him a HOF'er. Rodney Harrison said he thinks Eli is the best in the game right now.

As for last night, I think Eli still looked off his game. The miss to Hyno, throwing behind guys, throwing without touch, the throw to Cruz into coverage, i.e. the laser to Ahmad who's 3 ft. away, etc. He looked to me like he's fighting his way back to be the QB he can be.

GentleGiant
11-26-2012, 01:25 PM
Honestly, he is right. He has been a mess for the last 4 games. Out of the elite QB's in the NFL, how many of those guys have had 4 game slumps like this? I like Elli as our QB, but I have to agree with Simms on this one.

You're kidding right? Have you watched ANY of the season so far?Drew Brees had 4 games where they couldn't even WIN a game. Aaron Rodgers had an early slump when he lost to the seahawks, colts, and 9ers and now us. Brady has been outgunned by Russel Wilson and Kevin Kolb for god sakes. Honestly any guy who thinks Eli isn't elite either hasn't been watching the season or is an idiot. Peyton Manning had an INT happy season in 2010.

GentleGiant
11-26-2012, 01:27 PM
oh boy here comes the Simms hate now. lets go look at simms home record for nov/dec its pretty darn good . and not in an era where you cant sneeze on a qb like today, How many rings does Simms have? Are we not even gonna mention the fact that he had the greatest defensive player ever on his team?

BParcells777
11-26-2012, 01:44 PM
no hate on Simms, but I would have respected his anti Eli comments more if he made them when Eli was on a run than when Eli was beaten down

Right now Phil looks silly and envious........which is probably a misconception too

Diamondring
11-26-2012, 01:46 PM
Simms has his right to a opinion.

Roosevelt
11-26-2012, 02:23 PM
You're kidding right? Have you watched ANY of the season so far?Drew Brees had 4 games where they couldn't even WIN a game. Aaron Rodgers had an early slump when he lost to the seahawks, colts, and 9ers and now us. Brady has been outgunned by Russel Wilson and Kevin Kolb for god sakes. Honestly any guy who thinks Eli isn't elite either hasn't been watching the season or is an idiot. Peyton Manning had an INT happy season in 2010.

You seriously want to compare Eli's slump to Brees and Rogers?

Everyone knows Eli is a special player. But as good as he is, I've never seen a QB (at his stage in his career) miss targets like he did last night with Hyno, and Ahmad, as he fired it at him from 5ft away. I've never seen truly great quarterbacks throw the ball so poorly at times.

YATittle1962
11-26-2012, 02:31 PM
How many rings does Simms have?

same amount as Eli

Kruunch
11-26-2012, 02:46 PM
You have to understand that Simms came up in a time with Marino, Elway, Kelly and Montana. He was always compared (unfavorably) to those QBs and like an abused child, he is now passing on that tendency to Eli.

Ironically, of the people Simms has mentioned (Brady and Rodgers), Eli has beaten them both head to head on the biggest stage. And I'm not sure I can say in one sentence that a person is destined for the Hall of Fame and in the next say he isn't elite.

But I don't blame Simms for saying his piece ... I just don't agree with him.

bigjeep
11-26-2012, 02:50 PM
God, I love this thread!

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 05:57 PM
You have to understand that Simms came up in a time with Marino, Elway, Kelly and Montana. He was always compared (unfavorably) to those QBs and like an abused child, he is now passing on that tendency to Eli.

Ironically, of the people Simms has mentioned (Brady and Rodgers), Eli has beaten them both head to head on the biggest stage. And I'm not sure I can say in one sentence that a person is destined for the Hall of Fame and in the next say he isn't elite.

But I don't blame Simms for saying his piece ... I just don't agree with him.

Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.

sharick88
11-26-2012, 06:00 PM
Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.

Simms didn't beat Kelly in a big spot. Hoss did. Wasn't it the regular season game against the Bills that we lost Simms for the season in? Plus, we lost that game.

sharick88
11-26-2012, 06:01 PM
God, I love this thread!

I have to admit that reading through the stuff said in this thread does contribue to my own morale at my office.

yatitle
11-26-2012, 06:05 PM
Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.

Big Simms fan but lets not overstate his playoff career. His stats were 157-279 1679 yards 10 TD, 6 INT. W-L of 6-4. Was injured for playoffs in 1981 and 1990.

G-MENBK
11-26-2012, 06:13 PM
Can't believe this thread is still going.

Don't know if that's good or bad.

Harooni
11-26-2012, 07:00 PM
How many rings does Simms have? Are we not even gonna mention the fact that he had the greatest defensive player ever on his team? well true but when you have osi tuck and jpp on your dline , it sorta equals that out., and simms didnt have a lot of weapons to work with just a bunch of lunch pail guys, no stars to speak of on offense.

dezzzR
11-26-2012, 07:12 PM
Elis tougher than Phil
http://i.imgur.com/sFM38.gif

bigjeep
11-26-2012, 07:17 PM
Can't believe this thread is still going.

Don't know if that's good or bad.

Its good right to the SB!

GameTime
11-26-2012, 07:20 PM
Because we don't care about what other commentators say, it's only painful to hear it from EX Giants players. We want our players we were loyal to for years to be loyal to their team.

Again, it's not like they are slighting a guy who has been mediocre and only has a few accomplishments. Eli has 2 Superbowls, 2 Superbowl MVPs, and has been a Probowler. These EX Giants are going after a guy who has shown he belongs with the "elite" talks. Not to mention, last year he had the greatest 4th quarter season in history.

My problem with Simms quote is that he said it after a bad 3 games for Eli. He certainly didn't say it at the beginning of the season.
First of all not calling Eli elite doesnt mean squat because Simms is a Giant. All it means is that he doesnt hink he is elite. Obviously Simms holds that definition to a higher standard then many do. He did say he would be a HOFr......
When Eli had his "bad" more like terrible 3 weeks maybe it convinced Simms that he is not elite in his eyes...
Then again.....why really care so much. If you think Eli is elite that should be good enough

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 07:34 PM
Simms didn't beat Kelly in a big spot. Hoss did. Wasn't it the regular season game against the Bills that we lost Simms for the season in? Plus, we lost that game.
Holy crap G. I'm getting old.

BTW...I must thrash you next week.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 07:54 PM
well true but when you have osi tuck and jpp on your dline , it sorta equals that out., and simms didnt have a lot of weapons to work with just a bunch of lunch pail guys, no stars to speak of on offense.

I'm not trying to make an argument against simms, I think picking btwn Eli and Simms is lame, they were both great and two of my favorites, but I disagree with you about Simms not having a lot of weapons to work with, Joe morris was 1,400 yard back at one point, Bavaro was one of the best TE's in the game, and the giants had an excellent offesive line. I always felt Manuel was very good reciever as well, so to say he had little to no weapons is wrong imo.

giantsfan420
11-26-2012, 07:54 PM
Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.

wait, i could have sworn I've seen you make big deals out of people saying eli beat brady, favre, rodgers, etc etc bc "the qbs arent facing each other, they're facing the defenses."
isnt that the definition of hypocritical? to apply a set of standards to something while ignoring it for something else?

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 07:56 PM
Big Simms fan but lets not overstate his playoff career. His stats were 157-279 1679 yards 10 TD, 6 INT. W-L of 6-4. Was injured for playoffs in 1981 and 1990.

may not have been a big spot but the giants did beat them the Dolphins in 1990, 20-3 in week 3...wonderphil!

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 08:32 PM
Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.

not to nit pick and it doenst really matter cause phil was great imo but he never beat Kelly in a big spot either...when did he play against him other than a cold rainy December in 1990?

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 08:48 PM
wait, i could have sworn I've seen you make big deals out of people saying eli beat brady, favre, rodgers, etc etc bc "the qbs arent facing each other, they're facing the defenses."
isnt that the definition of hypocritical? to apply a set of standards to something while ignoring it for something else?
You're trying too hard.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 08:50 PM
not to nit pick and it doenst really matter cause phil was great imo but he never beat Kelly in a big spot either...when did he play against him other than a cold rainy December in 1990?
yes...G reminded me of my faulty memory.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 08:52 PM
I'm not trying to make an argument against simms, I think picking btwn Eli and Simms is lame, they were both great and two of my favorites, but I disagree with you about Simms not having a lot of weapons to work with, Joe morris was 1,400 yard back at one point, Bavaro was one of the best TE's in the game, and the giants had an excellent offesive line. I always felt Manuel was very good reciever as well, so to say he had little to no weapons is wrong imo.

wanted to also add that I found Bobby Johnson to be decent as well.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 08:57 PM
Agree to disagee. Phil was a just a better football player.


Just wondering what makes you say that? Eli will own ever passing record for the Giants when he is finished, has won two Super Bowls and two Super Bowl MVP awards and has led us to multiple conference titles. I think Simms was a great player but he was injured a fair amount and also had his early struggles, 1980 he threw 15 td and 19 picks and only completed 48 percent of his passes. The next year he threw 11 td and 9 picks but still only completed 54 percent of his throws. He then was injured on and off for a season and a half, missing one entire season. He was then benched, came into a game against the eagles and hurt his thumb and was out again for the season. If you do not remember, he was pretty unpopular in the ny area. It was at this time that an assistant coach convinced Simms to spend more time studying, watching film, and learning the teams offense/audibles. It was after this that Simms started to produce at a much higher level, going on to be voted to the pro bowl, get MVP pro bowl honors (with three touchdowns) and had his best seasons in 85 and 86 and an amazing Super Bowl performance gaining him the Super Bowl MVP award. After the 86 season he had some highs and some lows, playing a pretty bad game in the playoffs against the rams in 89 and then posting the highest qb rating and having a great year in 90 before breaking his foot. He was injured on and off for the rest of his career posting one more great season in 93 only to have shoulder surgery after the season. He was released by the Giants that offseason and retired. Simms only completed over 60 percent of his passes twice in 92 and 93, had four seasons with more or the same int as td throws, and only had a qb rating of over 80 6 times in his 14 seasons. In comparison, Eli has never missed a game, has completed 60 percent or more of his passes 5 our of 9 seasons, and has only one season throwing more int than td, his rookie year. There are a lot of other intangibles you can use as well, the evolution of the nfl defense, the rules changing, the physicality of the players...the list goes on and on, and can be used in ways to support claims off each qb. I understand your point of it being a different era but the injury situation and numbers, at least to me, make it a no brainier...Eli is the best qb to ever play for the giants in my mind and you are certainly untitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what leads you to the outcome that Simms was/is the better qb of the two?


So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.


My view is supported by a bunch of stats not made by it, I watched Simms play and Eli play and in my opinion Eli is the superior player. Your one and only point is always about the different era to back up your claim. If you use that logic, it is basically saying that the game has changed so much that comparisons can only be made to strengthen your argument, ie you can not compare Simms to Manning because it is a different time. What if Manning played during the time Simms did, do you think he would have preformed worse than Simms? Eli played in a run first offense for many years, and your statement about comparing the qualities of the players is spot on. Compare the fact that an assistant coach had to convince Simms to put more time in learning the offense and the audibles to Manning being a film room and preparation junky and I think that speaks volumes about some of their qualities. Is the only reason you think Simms is better because he played with different rules at a different time?

I'm just wondering why you think Simms is a better football player? Is it just based on how the game was played then in comparison to now? I'm not trying to be a jerk or push this discussion further than it is, I am just honestly curious...

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:02 PM
wanted to also add that I found Bobby Johnson to be decent as well.
OK now hold on...
In the context of Giants receivers at the time, Lionel Manual, Bobby Johnson, Ernie Gray and Stephen Baker were good players. In the context of the NFL?........They were less than mediocre as a WR corps. One of the worst in the league.

None of these guys would be considered in the top 50 WR's at the time.
We now have two guys who are definitely top 10. I said in his rookie year that barring serious injury, Hakeem Nicks will go down as the greatest WR in Giants history. I now believe that more than ever.

Also someone said that Phil had a great O line in front of him. That's a load of crap. Now once Jumbo and Moore were drafted, he had a good O line. Before that (for most of his career) that O line was horrific. Phil was hit harder and more often than any QB (except David Carr) in NFL history.
Eli has had every advantage in his high school, college and pro career. He was groomed to be an NFL QB. His Father even dictated where he would end up on draft day. I give him great credit for making the most of it. He's not a great athlete. And he works his *** off. But Phil was thrown into the snake pit and asked to survive on his own. He did more than survive. He thrived.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:06 PM
I'm just wondering why you think Simms is a better football player? Is it just based on how the game was played then in comparison to now? I'm not trying to be a jerk or push this discussion further than it is, I am just honestly curious...
he had an all time great arm. And he was very accurate as well. He stood tall in the pocket and was willing to take a direct hit in order to wait for a guy to break open. He was a great leader and field general. he was the QB during the most dominant era in my lifetime for our team. And in his most important game as a pro, he had an all time great performance.
And as I said, he did it while having to overcome as much adversity as any NFL QB that ever succeeded. He would run the stadium stairs while the rest of the team practiced to rehab his knee. A knee he tore up in the end zone at Giants stadium while the fans cheered his injury.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 09:06 PM
OK now hold on...
In the context of Giants receivers at the time, Lionel Manual, Bobby Johnson, Ernie Gray and Stephen Baker were good players. In the context of the NFL?........They were less than mediocre as a WR corps. One of the worst in the league.

None of these guys would be considered in the top 50 WR's at the time.
We now have two guys who are definitely top 10. I said in his rookie year that barring serious injury, Hakeem Nicks will go down as the greatest WR in Giants history. I now believe that more than ever.

Also someone said that Phil had a great O line in front of him. That's a load of crap. Now once Jumbo and Moore were drafted, he had a good O line. Before that (for most of his career) that O line was horrific. Phil was hit harder and more often than any QB (except David Carr) in NFL history.
Eli has had every advantage in his high school, college and pro career. He was groomed to be an NFL QB. His Father even dictated where he would end up on draft day. I give him great credit for making the most of it. He's not a great athlete. And he works his *** off. But Phil was thrown into the snake pit and asked to survive on his own. He did more than survive. He thrived.

the line simms has in front of him in 86 was well above average and as you said the line that included Jumbo was very good as well...you don't have to sell me on the greatness of Phil Simms I agree, but where you seem to like to accuse people of being an Eli homer, it seems to me your a Simms homer, nothing wrong with that, just seems to be the case...BTW I was half kidding about Bobby Johnson, although he did put up better numbers in his time with us than Manningham.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:09 PM
the line simms has in front of him in 86 was well above average and as you said the line that included Jumbo was very good as well...you don't have to sell me on the greatness of Phil Simms I agree, but where you seem to like to accuse people of being an Eli homer, it seems to me your a Simms homer, nothing wrong with that, just seems to be the case...BTW I was half kidding about Bobby Johnson, although he did put up better numbers in his time with us than Manningham.
Brad Benson and Billy Ard on his blind side. Brad Benson had one good game in his entire career as a Giant, against Dexter Manley. Maybe no one player was more responsible for Phil getting killed more than Benson. He has a nice car dealership though.
The only good thing about Billy Ard was that he went to college with my brother at Wake. He did say that Ard was a nice guy.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 09:14 PM
Brad Benson and Billy Ard on his blind side. Brad Benson had one good game in his entire career as a Giant, against Dexter Manley. Maybe no one player was more responsible for Phil getting killed more than Benson. He has a nice car dealership though.
The only good thing about Billy Ard was that he went to college with my brother at Wake. He did say that Ard was a nice guy.

lmao about the car dealer ship...you say they were horrific, do you mean in pass protection or overall? Because they paved the way for some big rushing seasons.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 09:18 PM
he had an all time great arm. And he was very accurate as well. He stood tall in the pocket and was willing to take a direct hit in order to wait for a guy to break open. He was a great leader and field general. he was the QB during the most dominant era in my lifetime for our team. And in his most important game as a pro, he had an all time great performance.
And as I said, he did it while having to overcome as much adversity as any NFL QB that ever succeeded. He would run the stadium stairs while the rest of the team practiced to rehab his knee. A knee he tore up in the end zone at Giants stadium while the fans cheered his injury.

But he was not that accurate, his completion percentage shows that, he was very accurate at times, just like Eli (playoffs, 4th quarter) but Eli has a higher completion percentage. Simms only threw 60 percent or over twice. You can say all of the other points you made about Eli as well, he has gotten leveled while sitting in the pocket waiting for a throw to open up. Why do you think Simms overcame more adversity than any other qb, don't you think that is a bit of a generalization? Manning has not had a free pass while playing here, and then look at guys who are playing today, Sanchez, Henne, Quinn, McCoy, the list goes on... Simms got benched a few times over his career but he was given lots of chances to succeed also. If you had said from the beginning that it was just your preference I probably wouldn't have even posted anything, but you said you thought Simms was just a better football player.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:22 PM
lmao about the car dealer ship...you say they were horrific, do you mean in pass protection or overall? Because they paved the way for some big rushing seasons.
Lets just look at 1984.
Phil threw for 4000 yards. Check how many guys caught as many as 50 balls for him.....Zero.
Check how many times he was sacked..............55.

Phil got killed in 1984. And look at the production.

This was the O line that gave up 3 safeties in one quarter.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 09:24 PM
But he was not that accurate, his completion percentage shows that, he was very accurate at times, just like Eli (playoffs, 4th quarter) but Eli has a higher completion percentage. Simms only threw 60 percent or over twice. You can say all of the other points you made about Eli as well, he has gotten leveled while sitting in the pocket waiting for a throw to open up. Why do you think Simms overcame more adversity than any other qb, don't you think that is a bit of a generalization? Manning has not had a free pass while playing here, and then look at guys who are playing today, Sanchez, Henne, Quinn, McCoy, the list goes on... Simms got benched a few times over his career but he was given lots of chances to succeed also. If you had said from the beginning that it was just your preference I probably wouldn't have even posted anything, but you said you thought Simms was just a better football player.

agreed on everything you've posted only thing about Simms was he more than once had his job taken away by a lesser player, Parcells even admitted it was a mistake in 83, and the 91 and 92 seasons were a joke not having him as the starter and Simms came back in 93 and had his best year, the guy was great but better than Eli IDK...Eli is a tough as they come...see niner championship game last year, the simms tough as nails argument does not fly with me, Eli is as tough as they come mentally and physicall out there...the proof is in the pudding.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:26 PM
But he was not that accurate, his completion percentage shows that, he was very accurate at times, just like Eli (playoffs, 4th quarter) but Eli has a higher completion percentage. Simms only threw 60 percent or over twice. You can say all of the other points you made about Eli as well, he has gotten leveled while sitting in the pocket waiting for a throw to open up. Why do you think Simms overcame more adversity than any other qb, don't you think that is a bit of a generalization? Manning has not had a free pass while playing here, and then look at guys who are playing today, Sanchez, Henne, Quinn, McCoy, the list goes on... Simms got benched a few times over his career but he was given lots of chances to succeed also. If you had said from the beginning that it was just your preference I probably wouldn't have even posted anything, but you said you thought Simms was just a better football player.

Don't even try to go there. Phil threw the ball down field. He didn't have a dink and dunk offense like Montana did.
Accuracy is measured by what you see on the field, not any stat. Completion % is effected by about 50 different things. The quality of the WR's and their ability to get open for one.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 09:26 PM
Lets just look at 1984.
Phil threw for 4000 yards. Check how many guys caught as many as 50 balls for him.....Zero.
Check how many times he was sacked..............55.

Phil got killed in 1984. And look at the production.

This was the O line that gave up 3 safeties in one quarter.

Look at last season for Eli...worst rushing attack in the league and a defense that gave up more points than the offense scored...the guy carried us...like I said you do not have to sell me on Simms, I know he is your favorite and that is cool, just don't ever accuse someone of wearing blinders when it comes to Eli, when you do the same for Simms.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:32 PM
the line simms has in front of him in 86 was well above average and as you said the line that included Jumbo was very good as well...you don't have to sell me on the greatness of Phil Simms I agree, but where you seem to like to accuse people of being an Eli homer, it seems to me your a Simms homer, nothing wrong with that, just seems to be the case...BTW I was half kidding about Bobby Johnson, although he did put up better numbers in his time with us than Manningham.
We can all disagree about the Phil vs. Eli discussion.
My real point is that suggesting that Eli isn't an "elite" QB isn't an insult to Eli. Its not a slam. Its not sour grapes. Its just one guy's opinion who knows a lot more than we do about playing QB in the NFL.
And he's using his own definition of "elite". Because its very subjective.
To me there are only 3 right now. Brady, Peyton and Brees. i don't include Rodgers yet because I don't love his mental toughness. He's a great talent and a great player but he's still a little mentally inconsistent.

Morehead State
11-26-2012, 09:34 PM
Look at last season for Eli...worst rushing attack in the league and a defense that gave up more points than the offense scored...the guy carried us...like I said you do not have to sell me on Simms, I know he is your favorite and that is cool, just don't ever accuse someone of wearing blinders when it comes to Eli, when you do the same for Simms.
Eli had a great year last year and was one of the top QB's in the league. And its true that he had no running game. But he had tremendous playmakers at WR. Probably never a better trio in Giants history. Even the 99 yard pass to Cruz was a 10 yard throw, designed to get to the sticks.

The guy did great and there is no argument, but his supporting cast was all time great.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 09:39 PM
Lets just look at 1984.
Phil threw for 4000 yards. Check how many guys caught as many as 50 balls for him.....Zero.
Check how many times he was sacked..............55.

Phil got killed in 1984. And look at the production.

This was the O line that gave up 3 safeties in one quarter.

Very true 0 players caught more than 50 balls that year, two had 48 and there were 8 players that had double diget receptions. Simms also threw 22 td to 18 int and completed only 53.7 of his passes.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 09:41 PM
Don't even try to go there. Phil threw the ball down field. He didn't have a dink and dunk offense like Montana did.
Accuracy is measured by what you see on the field, not any stat. Completion % is effected by about 50 different things. The quality of the WR's and their ability to get open for one.

I don't really understand how you can write off stats completely, especially completion percentage over a long period of time, and by your logic those 50 different things would be playing a roll in Eli's completion percentage as well, yet it is higher.

joemorrisforprez
11-26-2012, 09:44 PM
100 pages here we come!

Dline83
11-26-2012, 09:45 PM
We can all disagree about the Phil vs. Eli discussion.
My real point is that suggesting that Eli isn't an "elite" QB isn't an insult to Eli. Its not a slam. Its not sour grapes. Its just one guy's opinion who knows a lot more than we do about playing QB in the NFL.
And he's using his own definition of "elite". Because its very subjective.
To me there are only 3 right now. Brady, Peyton and Brees. i don't include Rodgers yet because I don't love his mental toughness. He's a great talent and a great player but he's still a little mentally inconsistent.

To be honest I could honestly care less about who says who is elite, it is just an opinion and everyone is entitled to them, and I also think that in the end it doesn't matter what people think, all that matters is what happens on the field. The thing that got me is that you made a statement that Simms was just a better football player than Manning and it made me wonder what made you think that.

zimonami
11-26-2012, 10:14 PM
Getting a little tired with Morehead having to defend Phil against some who never saw him play. Phil played in a stadium that was renowned for its swirling winds. If he didn't throw one of the tightest spirals of his time his completion % would have been even worse. As it was, it surely effected his % by several points.
He had guys like Ernest Grey dropping 2-3 passes every single game. The receivers of Phil's time would have trouble making 3rd string on today's team.
As Morehead said, Phl had no short passing game.
If Eli had to pass in Giants stadium for his whole career his stats would be much worse.
The Giant offensive line was very good at run blocking, but Phil was sackedover 50+ X in 3 seasons, 2 seasons of 40+, and 5 seasons in the high 30's Eli's highest sack year was 30.
Hard to compare in different eras, but please don't even begin to lean on stats.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 10:17 PM
Getting a little tired with Morehead having to defend Phil against some who never saw him play. Phil played in a stadium that was renowned for its swirling winds. If he didn't throw one of the tightest spirals of his time his completion % would have been even worse. As it was, it surely effected his % by several points.
He had guys like Ernest Grey dropping 2-3 passes every single game. The receivers of Phil's time would have trouble making 3rd string on today's team.
As Morehead said, Phl had no short passing game.
If Eli had to pass in Giants stadium for his whole career his stats would be much worse.
The Giant offensive line was very good at run blocking, but Phil was sackedover 50+ X in 3 seasons, 2 seasons of 40+, and 5 seasons in the high 30's Eli's highest sack year was 30.
Hard to compare in different eras, but please don't even begin to lean on stats.

He is not defending Simms against anyone zim...I personally think Phil was great and I do not think anyone is saying other wise, I think we are just supporting the guy we have now...MH made great points, most of which I agree with but where he accuses some of wearing blinders when it comes to Eli, I feel he does the same with Phil.

Harooni
11-26-2012, 10:19 PM
100 pages here we come! come 100 i give up

zimonami
11-26-2012, 10:40 PM
He is not defending Simms against anyone zim...I personally think Phil was great and I do not think anyone is saying other wise, I think we are just supporting the guy we have now...MH made great points, most of which I agree with but where he accuses some of wearing blinders when it comes to Eli, I feel he does the same with Phil.
Yes, MH might be biased, but most of his points are valid.
Simms is my favorite Giant of all time (LT, Carson and Bavaro are close). Given that, I think Eli is the best Giant QB of all time.
I'm not a blind Phil supporter.
But, it's a lot closer than some think.
Phil's time was all about Marino, Kelly, and Montana... and, the Giant D. Phil rarely got credit for his solid play and helping win games.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 10:46 PM
Getting a little tired with Morehead having to defend Phil against some who never saw him play. Phil played in a stadium that was renowned for its swirling winds. If he didn't throw one of the tightest spirals of his time his completion % would have been even worse. As it was, it surely effected his % by several points.
He had guys like Ernest Grey dropping 2-3 passes every single game. The receivers of Phil's time would have trouble making 3rd string on today's team.
As Morehead said, Phl had no short passing game.
If Eli had to pass in Giants stadium for his whole career his stats would be much worse.
The Giant offensive line was very good at run blocking, but Phil was sackedover 50+ X in 3 seasons, 2 seasons of 40+, and 5 seasons in the high 30's Eli's highest sack year was 30.
Hard to compare in different eras, but please don't even begin to lean on stats.

I saw Simms play, and I don't really see why you feel the need to defend anything, can't everyone have an opinion? The only reason I ever got started on this was because of a statement that Simms was just the better football player, which I disagree with. Then all the things used to back up that claim were focused around rule changes. i have no problem if someone prefers Simms to Eli, but i do think if someone makes a point blank claim comparing the two that others should be able to ask why.

For all the points you made you can argue about the high degree of turnover the Eli has dealt with, less than stellar running games, poor defenses. Simms had some of his worse games away from Giants stadium (49ers playoff loss) What about the sack ratio, does that say nothing about the qb? I think Eli himself is a big reason he gets less sacks than Simms.

The other thing I don't get is the hatred of stats, they do not tell the whole story, and it is easy to manipulate them to prove a point, but how can you say completion percentage over a career does not matter, that I just don't understand. I think stats are an important tool to use when analyzing players, especially the new total qb rating system.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 10:48 PM
Yes, MH might be biased, but most of his points are valid.
Simms is my favorite Giant of all time (LT, Carson and Bavaro are close). Given that, I think Eli is the best Giant QB of all time.
I'm not a blind Phil supporter.
But, it's a lot closer than some think.
Phil's time was all about Marino, Kelly, and Montana... and, the Giant D. Phil rarely got credit for his solid play and helping win games.

I never knew he was ur fav zim..makes sense with ur avatar..Ipegged you as a Sam Huff or Del shofner guy...my favorite giant was Bavaro, with Armstead,Hampton, and Richie S. not far behind.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 10:50 PM
Yes, MH might be biased, but most of his points are valid.
Simms is my favorite Giant of all time (LT, Carson and Bavaro are close). Given that, I think Eli is the best Giant QB of all time.
I'm not a blind Phil supporter.
But, it's a lot closer than some think.
Phil's time was all about Marino, Kelly, and Montana... and, the Giant D. Phil rarely got credit for his solid play and helping win games.

but agreed about the valid points on Simms, the guy was great..my favorite Simms game was the 1986 divisional game against SF...I've watched that over and over on VHS

Sarcasman
11-26-2012, 10:56 PM
That's like saying Tiki didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.





Not the same thing at all.

Drez
11-26-2012, 11:01 PM
The other thing I don't get is the hatred of stats, they do not tell the whole story, and it is easy to manipulate them to prove a point, but how can you say completion percentage over a career does not matter, that I just don't understand. I think stats are an important tool to use when analyzing players, especially the new total qb rating system.
Because particularly in this case, stats most certainly don't tell the whole story. Completion percentages in Simms days were just not as high as they are today, in large part due to the rule changes since then.

Roosevelt
11-26-2012, 11:04 PM
how can you say completion percentage over a career does not matter, that I just don't understand.


If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

You would also consider the system Phil played in, his supporting cast, as well as the conditions at Giants Stadium.

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 11:14 PM
If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

You would also consider the system Phil played in, his supporting cast, as well as the conditions at Giants Stadium.

Simms was one of the best bad weather QBs of all time imo...However I don't get why we need to build a case for Simms,I think we can all agree how much he meant to this franchise. I personally all things considered, era, style of the game, supporting cast think Eli has been every bit as important and great for this team...We just played the Packers...I wonder if they argue Rodgers vs Favre like this.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 11:19 PM
Because particularly in this case, stats most certainly don't tell the whole story. Completion percentages in Simms days were just not as high as they are today, in large part due to the rule changes since then.

Guys that were over or near 60 percent completions during the 80's:

Joe Montana
Ken Stabler
Danny White
Dan Marino
Ken Anderson
Dan Fouts
Dave Kraig
Warren Moon
Tony Eason
Jim McMahon

Guys that started in the mid 80s:

Steve Young
Hugh Millan
Rich Gannon
Jim Kelly
Bernie Kosar
Bobby Hebert

All of the above are over 58 percent completions for their careers. Phil was at 55.4, which is also higher than a lot of good players. I just think stats are an Importent tool that I will always look at when analyzing players, like I said, they do not tell the whole story but to discount them completely seems like cutting of your nose to spit your face, but to each their own

Dline83
11-26-2012, 11:26 PM
[QUOTE=Roosevelt;593545]If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

I do take those things into consideration, but do not think that means you can not use stats from that time period for arguments sake. There have been things that both players have dealt with, Eli has worked with a good amount of different players on the offense, has had the playing style of the offense change, and if you really want to get serious, the difference in the athletic abilities of players from the 80s to the 2000s, as well as the quality of the defenses from each time period. The argument to discount stats is just something I disagree with, would you buy a stock without looking at a companies history?

alentown pa
11-26-2012, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE=Roosevelt;593545]If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

I do take those things into consideration, but do not think that means you can not use stats from that time period for arguments sake. There have been things that both players have dealt with, Eli has worked with a good amount of different players on the offense, has had the playing style of the offense change, and if you really want to get serious, the difference in the athletic abilities of players from the 80s to the 2000s, as well as the quality of the defenses from each time period. The argument to discount stats is just something I disagree with, would you buy a stock without looking at a companies history?

great point about the quality of the athletes in today's game compared to back then...it really is apples and oranges..both were great for us...people will defend the guy from their era.

Dline83
11-26-2012, 11:44 PM
[QUOTE=Dline83;593551]

great point about the quality of the athletes in today's game compared to back then...it really is apples and oranges..both were great for us...people will defend the guy from their era.

Thanks and you are correct that it is a hard comparison, and one that everyone is entitled to have. At the end of the day I'm just happy that both Simms and Manning were both Giants so we are able to have these discussions, it's never a bad thing when you are talking about two great players, especially when they play/played for the Giants!

gumby74
11-26-2012, 11:57 PM
Simms was one of the best bad weather QBs of all time imo...However I don't get why we need to build a case for Simms,I think we can all agree how much he meant to this franchise. I personally all things considered, era, style of the game, supporting cast think Eli has been every bit as important and great for this team...We just played the Packers...I wonder if they argue Rodgers vs Favre like this.

A good friend of mine is a Packers fan. They used to argue between Favre and Rodgers, but not over who is better. Rodgers used to get hated on because he sent Favre packing. Favre was worshiped in Green Bay. Football is a religion to the folks over there.

No one in Packer land was ever questioning whether or not Rodgers was great.

Parademon
11-27-2012, 01:29 AM
The QBR rating is a joke! Plz don't anyone else bring that up!

bigjeep
11-27-2012, 08:23 AM
We made it, 100 pages on why Eli is a better QB then Simms!

Dline83
11-27-2012, 08:46 AM
The QBR rating is a joke! Plz don't anyone else bring that up!

It is not perfect and may not even be better than the old rating system for qb, but at least it tries to take into account everything that goes into a play, and I do agree that there should be a different value associated with a screen pass that ends up a td or a throw that beats double coverage that turns into a td, don't you?

There really is no way to accurately relay a qb performance on paper, too many intangibles go into each play to accurately map out with stats, but they do play in important roll in the analysis of players. Some of the things that are hard to map out are; pass protection, if there was any miscommunication setting the play, if everyone heard, understood, and reacted correctly to audibles being called at the line, protection changes at the line, if routes are ran correctly, if a throwing lane is there, and then all of the things the defense are doing. The one thing that I dislike the most abut it is that it gives no credit to certain plays even if there were multiple offensive formations used in previous plays to set the d up for a simple screen, or a quick throw, something that takes advantage of the formations the d is using, and the rating system certainly has a problem with the way the analysis works, because it could be subjective to the person who is looking at each game.