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Kruunch
11-27-2012, 08:49 AM
Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.

He didn't beat neither Kelly nor Marino in big spots and with the rare exception, was never credited with winning a game single handedly the way those other QBs (and Eli for that matter) have been.

Phil was the consummate game manager by and large.

gumby74
11-27-2012, 08:54 AM
The QBR rating is a joke! Plz don't anyone else bring that up!

Oh, but it isn't. It does NOT tell the entire story, but it IS a good indicator. I'll bet you 9 out of 10 times a QB is "better" than another one if they have 20 more QB points. A few points difference is difficult to judge because there are so many factors that come into play. But a fairly significant difference is telling.

stormblue
11-27-2012, 09:56 AM
neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
neither is Eli.
they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.

gumby74
11-27-2012, 10:06 AM
neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
neither is Eli.
they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.

Too many players get into the HoF as it is, imo. But HoF players should be one in a era types. Right now, it's just Brady and Peyton imo. Even Big Ben doesn't qualify. Brees while great, doesn't have the oomph factor.

As much as I loved Phil, he was largely a game manager imo - mainly because that's how Parcells played him. He certainly had the ability to do more. IMO, Eli and Phil rank roughly around the same position relative to their peers. Phil was solid and a bulldog. Eli is "clutch" under 2 minutes. Eli's career is still being written. But as of now, both were/are good, but nothing to scream about.

stormblue
11-27-2012, 10:09 AM
Too many players get into the HoF as it is, imo. But HoF players should be one in a era types. Right now, it's just Brady and Peyton imo. Even Big Ben doesn't qualify. Brees while great, doesn't have the oomph factor.

i would tend to agree.

GCGiant
11-27-2012, 10:12 AM
But HoF players should be one in a era types.

OK...let's test your theory. I am predicting HOF for Brett Favre. According to your theory...in all the time that Brett played, he should be the only one that is admitted into the HOF who played in his era...is that how it works?

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 10:49 AM
Simms was one of the best bad weather QBs of all time imo...However I don't get why we need to build a case for Simms,I think we can all agree how much he meant to this franchise. I personally all things considered, era, style of the game, supporting cast think Eli has been every bit as important and great for this team...We just played the Packers...I wonder if they argue Rodgers vs Favre like this.

I agree.

You are right that we shouldn't have to make a case for Phil. His jersey has already been retired.

And Eli is every bit as important to our franchise as Phil. The difference is in the circumstances the team was in when they arrived.

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 11:11 AM
[QUOTE=Roosevelt;593545]If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

I do take those things into consideration, but do not think that means you can not use stats from that time period for arguments sake. There have been things that both players have dealt with, Eli has worked with a good amount of different players on the offense, has had the playing style of the offense change, and if you really want to get serious, the difference in the athletic abilities of players from the 80s to the 2000s, as well as the quality of the defenses from each time period. The argument to discount stats is just something I disagree with, would you buy a stock without looking at a companies history?

A quarterback's stats don't tell the whole story, so while I don't ignore them completely, they shouldn't define a player or his career.

For instance, 20 years from now a young fan looks through the Giant's record book and sees our longest TD pass in history - Eli's 99 yarder to Cruz against the Jets last year. No one would know it was only a 10 yard throw.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 11:14 AM
neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
neither is Eli.
they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.
how do you "take away the rings"...??????????? isn't that the ultimate goal????

Eli's stats are more than pedestrian.....IMO especially since he is no where near being done yet.
I love Simms and as far as I am concerned if Nameth is in then Simms should be. I get all the Nameth love but the guy had more picks then TDs , had a crappy record, and his comp % was great at all. He won a SB and was an icon. They only reasons he is in.....

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 11:18 AM
He didn't beat neither Kelly nor Marino in big spots and with the rare exception, was never credited with winning a game single handedly the way those other QBs (and Eli for that matter) have been.

Phil was the consummate game manager by and large.
Would you care to define "game manager"?
Because its used in so many way it seems to have no meaning.

Kruunch
11-27-2012, 11:51 AM
Would you care to define "game manager"?
Because its used in so many way it seems to have no meaning.

A quarterback who hands the ball off a lot. Granted that's the offense we ran back in Phil's day but a large part of that was that Phil wasn't the type of QB to drive a team (LT even remarked on this).

I can think of about two dozen games that Eli was credited with winning "single handedly". I can think of a half dozen that Phil won in this manner (and none that he won so dramatically as Eli has made a habit of).

Looking it up on Pro Football Reference ( http://www.pro-football-reference.com ) Phil has had 17 career come backs / game winning drives, 11 of which were 4th quarter come backs in his 14 year career.

Eli has had 25 to date, 21 of which were in the 4th quarter in 9 years.

To compare this to one of the most elite QBs of his time, Joe Montana had 35 game winning drives, 31 of which were in the 4th quarter in his 15 year career. Eli is well on his way to breaking those numbers. To compare this to a contemporary elite QB, Tom Brady has 35 game winning drives, 25 of which were in the 4th quarter in 13 years. Eli is certainly in that ball park.

That's the difference (to me) between a game manager (and that's not meant to be pejorative in the least) in a conservative offense and an elite game changing QB in an aggressive offense.

I also happen to believe one dictates the other. In other words, had Phil had Eli's talent, our 80s offense wouldn't have been so conservative.

stormblue
11-27-2012, 11:57 AM
how do you "take away the rings"...??????????? isn't that the ultimate goal????

Eli's stats are more than pedestrian.....IMO especially since he is no where near being done yet.
I love Simms and as far as I am concerned if Nameth is in then Simms should be. I get all the Nameth love but the guy had more picks then TDs , had a crappy record, and his comp % was great at all. He won a SB and was an icon. They only reasons he is in.....

Plunkett has 2 rings and he's not in.
that's my point.....you need MAJOR stats or MAJOR rings to get in.
or a good combination of both. i said another ring would get Eli in.
and 4 or 5 more years of stats might do it too.

and Namath is there because of the historical significance of that SB.....
as it was the 1st AFC SB victory and legitimized the AFL/NFL merger.

Dline83
11-27-2012, 11:59 AM
neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
neither is Eli.
they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.

I disagree, not that I am saying he would get voted in today, but I do not think he needs another ring to get voted in.

Here are some of the accomplishments of Manning:

Most 4th quarter TD passes in a season
Most 4th quarter comebacks in a season
Most game winning drives in a season
21 career 4th quarter comebacks, 15th all-time
25 game winning drives, 24th all-time
5 game winning drives in the platoffs, 5th all-time
4 4th quarter comeback drives in the playoffs, 2nd all-time
Tied for longest pass completion and TD
Most road playoff wins by a QB
Tied NFL record for most game winning drives in a season
Most road wins in the regular season and postseason by a QB - this is not counting the two Super Bowls
Most passing yards in a postseason
Most connsecutive passes to begin a Super Bowl
Active leader for most consecutive starts by a QB
8th most passing yards in a single game
13th all time in sack percentage with 4.71
Has thrown at least 23 TD in six different seasons
Has led the Giants to 370 points or more six times, the Giants have only gained 370 or more points 10 times in their history
5th player in NFL history to win two Super Bowl MVP awards
Most first down passes in a Super Bowl combined (18 Giants, 15 Patriots)
Fewest turnovers in a Super Bowl
In 2009 Forbes named Manning the 3erd most clutch qb, and he has added quite a few come from behind victories since then
24 straight games with at least 200 yards passing, second longest streak in NFL history

Giants Records:
Most pass attemps in a regular season
Most completions in a regular season
Most passing yards in a regular season
Most interceptions thrown in a regular season
Most connsecutive pass completions in a regular game
Most career playoff touchdowns
Most TD passes
Most consecutive starts by a QB

Also just some stuff to think about:

Simms never led the Giants into the playoffs without having a top 10 scoring defense
Just once in Mannings first 8 seasons did he have a scoring defense ranked in the top 10

I think if Eli keeps playing the way he has that he will get into the HOF without winning another Super Bowl, even though I think and hope he will win at least one more.

Dline83
11-27-2012, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE=Dline83;593551]

A quarterback's stats don't tell the whole story, so while I don't ignore them completely, they shouldn't define a player or his career.

For instance, 20 years from now a young fan looks through the Giant's record book and sees our longest TD pass in history - Eli's 99 yarder to Cruz against the Jets last year. No one would know it was only a 10 yard throw.

Exactly my point, but to denie that stats hold any importance, is incorrect in my mind. Your point also works both ways, if a young fan looked at Eli Mannings 2010 numbers and saw 25 interceptions he/she could make certain conclusions based on those stats that would not tell the whole story of why there were 25 interceptions. My point is that in conjuction with actually seeing the players we are talking about play, the stats add another layer of analysis that we would not have without them.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 12:15 PM
[QUOTE=Roosevelt;593864]

Exactly my point, but to denie that stats hold any importance, is incorrect in my mind. Your point also works both ways, if a young fan looked at Eli Mannings 2010 numbers and saw 25 interceptions he/she could make certain conclusions based on those stats that would not tell the whole story of why there were 25 interceptions. My point is that in conjuction with actually seeing the players we are talking about play, the stats add another layer of analysis that we would not have without them.
No one is saying that stats don't matter. they certainly do. Its funny that the Eli homers used to say that they don't matter when his weren't very good. But I digress.
What I am saying is that comparing stats from era to era is very hard to do. Also stats depend on a lot of factors like the quality of weapons around you and the system they played in. And obviously the rules each player played in, the changes in modern offensive and defensive systems.
So you have to use your judgement.
Some of us watched every one of Phils 25 passes in SB 21 last week in this thread. My first thought was that Eli simply can't throw the ball like that. Those were absolute darts thrown with great accuracy and with a great release.
So we can list all the stats and facts about each guys career. Ultimately we use our judgement based on what we see or have seen.
I've made mine. We all have a right to our opinion. But to say (like I've seen) that Eli is now the best QB in Giants history because he just passed Phil's TD total is ridiculous.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 12:21 PM
Plunkett has 2 rings and he's not in.
that's my point.....you need MAJOR stats or MAJOR rings to get in.
or a good combination of both. i said another ring would get Eli in.
and 4 or 5 more years of stats might do it too.

and Namath is there because of the historical significance of that SB.....
as it was the 1st AFC SB victory and legitimized the AFL/NFL merger.

Plunkett has more picks then TDs and has a sub 53% comp.....
also had only 25k+ yards
By the time Eli's career ends he will have major stats and rings....he already has 30+K yards, almost 60% comp, and more TD's then picks...
Like I said I love Simms and it was a different time in the NFL when he played. But to say Eli isnt as good of a QB is just not how I think about it. But thats just me.....

stormblue
11-27-2012, 12:25 PM
I disagree, not that I am saying he would get voted in today, but I do not think he needs another ring to get voted in.

Here are some of the accomplishments of Manning:

Most 4th quarter TD passes in a season
Most 4th quarter comebacks in a season
Most game winning drives in a season
21 career 4th quarter comebacks, 15th all-time
25 game winning drives, 24th all-time
5 game winning drives in the platoffs, 5th all-time
4 4th quarter comeback drives in the playoffs, 2nd all-time
Tied for longest pass completion and TD
Most road playoff wins by a QB
Tied NFL record for most game winning drives in a season
Most road wins in the regular season and postseason by a QB - this is not counting the two Super Bowls
Most passing yards in a postseason
Most connsecutive passes to begin a Super Bowl
Active leader for most consecutive starts by a QB
8th most passing yards in a single game
13th all time in sack percentage with 4071
Has thrown at least 23 TD in six different seasons
Has led the Giants to 370 points or more six times, the Giants have only gained 370 or more points 10 times in their history
5th player in NFL history to win two Super Bowl MVP awards
Most first down passes in a Super Bowl combined (18 Giants, 15 Patriots)
Fewest turnovers in a Super Bowl
In 2009 Forbes named Manning the 3erd most clutch qb, and he has added quite a few come from behind victories since then
24 straight games with at least 200 yards passing, second longest streak in NFL history

Giants Records:
Most pass attemps in a regular season
Most completions in a regular season
Most passing yards in a regular season
Most interceptions thrown in a regular season
Most connsecutive pass completions in a regular game
Most career playoff touchdowns
Most TD passes
Most consecutive starts by a QB

Also just some stuff to think about:

Simms never led the Giants into the playoffs without having a top 10 scoring defense
Just once in Mannings first 8 seasons did he have a scoring defense ranked in the top 10

I think if Eli keeps playing the way he has that he will get into the HOF without winning another Super Bowl, even though I think and hope he will win at least one more.

all pretty good stuff.....but
half of those stats are 4th qtr stuff that was a direct result of stinking it up for the 1st 3 qtrs.
i'm not gonna go down the whole list , but the 99 yarder was only 9 by Eli and 90 by Cruz

the other half the list are ny giants records that aren't all that anyway.

now his consecutive starting streak is amazing.

but he also has 140 int's to go with those 200 td's.
Brees , for example is 312 vs 157.

but ...he still has 5 or so more years ....so he will probably wind up with enough stuff to get in ...Rings and Stats.

dezzzR
11-27-2012, 12:31 PM
Eli Manning is fourth-fastest active QB to reach 200 career TD passes (132 games). Big bro Peyton was fastest (106)

Dline83
11-27-2012, 12:40 PM
[QUOTE=Dline83;593915]
No one is saying that stats don't matter. they certainly do. Its funny that the Eli homers used to say that they don't matter when his weren't very good. But I digress.
What I am saying is that comparing stats from era to era is very hard to do. Also stats depend on a lot of factors like the quality of weapons around you and the system they played in. And obviously the rules each player played in, the changes in modern offensive and defensive systems.
So you have to use your judgement.
Some of us watched every one of Phils 25 passes in SB 21 last week in this thread. My first thought was that Eli simply can't throw the ball like that. Those were absolute darts thrown with great accuracy and with a great release.
So we can list all the stats and facts about each guys career. Ultimately we use our judgement based on what we see or have seen.
I've made mine. We all have a right to our opinion. But to say (like I've seen) that Eli is now the best QB in Giants history because he just passed Phil's TD total is ridiculous.

I completely agree! I guess that was what I was trying to say earlier, that if you had said that Simms was your favorite Giants QB, I would not have even chimmed in with a comment, but the first thing that I saw was that you wrote that Simms was just a better football player, which to me sounded more like a statement than an opinion, which made me wonder why you thought that. I also agree that there are many different factors that go into reading stats and that it is not as simple as comparing numbers on paper. I also agree that Eli having broken Simms td record should not be the single reason why he is now automatically considered to be the best qb in Giants history, I do think that it adds more credence to that argument thought. You are completely correct that everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and it is also a nice thing to be able to disagree about!

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Eli Manning is fourth-fastest active QB to reach 200 career TD passes (132 games). Big bro Peyton was fastest (106)
I saw that on FB..Its not even close to being true.

stormblue
11-27-2012, 12:42 PM
Plunkett has more picks then TDs and has a sub 53% comp.....
also had only 25k+ yards
By the time Eli's career ends he will have major stats and rings....he already has 30+K yards, almost 60% comp, and more TD's then picks...
Like I said I love Simms and it was a different time in the NFL when he played. But to say Eli isnt as good of a QB is just not how I think about it. But thats just me.....

its all good.......i never said Eli would not get there.....he probably will .....with more rings or stats.
but if you were to stop the merry-go-round right now .....the answer is no.

and i never said either one was was better.....that's subjective , opinionated , and at least 100 pages debatable !! LOL

i did however , say that Phil is my favorite Giant of all time.....which is not debatable.

giantsfan420
11-27-2012, 12:43 PM
Eli Manning is fourth-fastest active QB to reach 200 career TD passes (132 games). Big bro Peyton was fastest (106)
i dunno if thats accurate...but
1 of 5 qbs to throw for 3k and 20 tds at least for 6 straight seasons, (eli is on 8th season straight i dunno how many qbs have done that id assume less than 5).

eli is a bonafide elite qb. every qb has a slump now and then. peyton manning threw 4 ints in three straight games in his final playing season at Indy. Brees has 23 ints in 2010, and has actually had quite a few games where he's thrown a game ending int. Rodgers has had a couple of very pedestrian games this season as he did his first yr starting. Big Ben has had some bad slumps himself. Each of these QBs is nonetheless awesome, and exceptional like 90% of the time.
I couldnt believe it when I saw Skip Bayless and Rob Parker of all people say that Eli is def elite and has done too much for a few games to redefine him. I also found it interesting to learn Skip is close friends with Simms and said he felt that a big part of this was Simms ultra competiveness and knowing Eli was about to pass him on the TDs list and that hurt him a little. I had to check my ears when I heard that from Skip and Skip said he loved Phil as a player but that this comment was bc Phils ego was hurt...

GameTime
11-27-2012, 12:46 PM
I saw that on FB..Its not even close to being true.


Elias Stat of the Day: Manning now has 200 touchdown passes, one more than Simms did in his Giants career. He is the fourth-quickest to 200 touchdown throws among active quarterbacks (132 games). Eli's brother got there fastest (106 games_.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 12:47 PM
its all good.......i never said Eli would not get there.....he probably will .....with more rings or stats.
but if you were to stop the merry-go-round right now .....the answer is no.

and i never said either one was was better.....that's subjective , opinionated , and at least 100 pages debatable !! LOL

i did however , say that Phil is my favorite Giant of all time.....which is not debatable.

He is one of my faves too...without question. Rodney Hampton too...:)

Kruunch
11-27-2012, 12:48 PM
Eli Manning is fourth-fastest active QB to reach 200 career TD passes (132 games). Big bro Peyton was fastest (106)

Dan Marino did it in 89 games I believe.

Eli is somewhere around 8 on the list.

Kruunch
11-27-2012, 12:49 PM
Elias Stat of the Day: Manning now has 200 touchdown passes, one more than Simms did in his Giants career. He is the fourth-quickest to 200 touchdown throws among active quarterbacks (132 games). Eli's brother got there fastest (106 games_.

Piffle.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 12:50 PM
Piffle.
no "piffle"..lol
the stat that was qouted previously was for actives....

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 12:52 PM
Elias Stat of the Day: Manning now has 200 touchdown passes, one more than Simms did in his Giants career. He is the fourth-quickest to 200 touchdown throws among active quarterbacks (132 games). Eli's brother got there fastest (106 games_.
OK its active QB's.

dezzzR
11-27-2012, 01:00 PM
OK its active QB's.:D

dezzzR
11-27-2012, 01:01 PM
Dan Marino did it in 89 games I believe.

Eli is somewhere around 8 on the list.Mind blowing...

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 01:03 PM
:D
For the record...Rivers will end up doing it in far less.

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=Roosevelt;593864]

Exactly my point, but to denie that stats hold any importance, is incorrect in my mind. Your point also works both ways, if a young fan looked at Eli Mannings 2010 numbers and saw 25 interceptions he/she could make certain conclusions based on those stats that would not tell the whole story of why there were 25 interceptions. My point is that in conjuction with actually seeing the players we are talking about play, the stats add another layer of analysis that we would not have without them.

They certainly are great for debating. lol.

I have to admit when I was young I enjoyed looking at the players stats. But of course back then we maybe got to see them once a week from a good newspaper...

Bashum_Blue
11-27-2012, 01:13 PM
The fact that this conversation is still happening shows how fickle and pathetic the media is. The fact that we're still even discussing the fact that Eli isn't elite on this board shows how easily we're pulled into a discussion that means nothing. This discussion is moot. Eli has nothing left to prove to anyone, except his team mates. All of our opinions of him, good or bad, don't mean jack squat.

Two time superbowl mvp and so many NFL and Giant's franchise records it's ridiculous. Anyone that doesn't believe he is elite is a bit delusional.

just my two cents.

stormblue
11-27-2012, 01:14 PM
i don't see where how many games played even comes into the equation about reaching 200 td's
it should be how many passes , not how many games played.
a QB in an offense that throws twice as often should reach any milestone twice as fast.
the marker should be pass attempts , not games played.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=Dline83;593915]

They certainly are great for debating. lol.

I have to admit when I was young I enjoyed looking at the players stats. But of course back then we maybe got to see them once a week from a good newspaper...

Me too Rosie.
I used to look at the stats of Phil in 1980 (or was it 1981) where he was stuck at 11 TD's and 9 picks because he was out for the year. I watched other QB's pass him every week.
The things we care about where we're young.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 01:19 PM
i don't see where how many games even comes into it.
it should be passing attempts , not games played.
a QB in an offense that throws twice as as often should reach any milestone twice as fast
If there is one stat that means the most as far as how well a QB is throwing the ball it would be the ratio between TD's and Int's. It measures production vs. the cost of that production.
In today's NFL, that number should be at least 2 to 1. All the best QB's always meet that standard (or come close)...except of course one.

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 01:21 PM
I saw that on FB..Its not even close to being true.

I just found this.,



QUARTERBACK



# OF GAMES TO REACH 200 TD PASSES



Dan Marino


89



Peyton Manning


106



Brett Favre


107



Tom Brady


116



Johnny Unitas


121







Kurt Warner


117*

BuffyBlueII
11-27-2012, 01:33 PM
If there is one stat that means the most as far as how well a QB is throwing the ball it would be the ratio between TD's and Int's. It measures production vs. the cost of that production.
In today's NFL, that number should be at least 2 to 1. All the best QB's always meet that standard (or come close)...except of course one.

However, only TWO of those guys playing right now have more than one SuperBowl MVP. MS, I couldn’t resist, lol.......

Eli was better on sunday against Green Bay Packers but he still looked a little bit off. Eli missed a couple easy passes and lets hope he calms down and fixes that. I am a huge Eli fan and supporter but I would like to see some consistency from him.

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 02:56 PM
Eli was better on sunday against Green Bay Packers but he still looked a little bit off. Eli missed a couple easy passes and lets hope he calms down and fixes that. I am a huge Eli fan and supporter but I would like to see some consistency from him.

That's how I saw it, yet I see he's up for some player of week honors. i didn't think he played well enough for something like that.

sharick88
11-27-2012, 03:32 PM
You're kidding right? Have you watched ANY of the season so far?Drew Brees had 4 games where they couldn't even WIN a game. Aaron Rodgers had an early slump when he lost to the seahawks, colts, and 9ers and now us. Brady has been outgunned by Russel Wilson and Kevin Kolb for god sakes. Honestly any guy who thinks Eli isn't elite either hasn't been watching the season or is an idiot. Peyton Manning had an INT happy season in 2010.

To Brees' credit, his defense is the worst in the league and he STILL got his. Brady still got his in his loss against the seahawks. Even though Rodgers started off 1-3, his stats in those games weren't bad and were posted earlier in thread. You mention those 3 QB's losing to sorry QBs. How about Eli losing to Rex Grosman last year TWICE and Vince Young!!!!! Anyways, you seriously need to get Eli's nuts out of your mouth and see things for what they are. None of those guys went on a 1 td and 6 int slump in any of their games. 1td and 6 ints in a four game stretch is Sanchez like. Just because I don't think Eli is an elite QB doesn't mean that I think he is great QB and a future hall of fame player. He is my guy, but I am not blind to his poor play at times.

sharick88
11-27-2012, 03:36 PM
Holy crap G. I'm getting old.

BTW...I must thrash you next week.

Honestly, I feel old for actually remembering that game. Mid 30's is the perfect age to be I guess. I am pretty much throwing in the towel this ff season. My whole RB corps is hurt less Ray Rice

Harooni
11-27-2012, 03:37 PM
i know some of us are guilty of nit picking on eli for this and that , but he is darn good when he is on. its just the up and down two faced QB thing.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 03:38 PM
Honestly, I feel old for actually remembering that game. Mid 30's is the perfect age to be I guess. I am pretty much throwing in the towel this ff season. My whole RB corps is hurt less Ray Rice
Well then you really don't need to start any of your best players....right?

Plus..you should have picked up Knowshon before I did.

sharick88
11-27-2012, 03:40 PM
Well then you really don't need to start any of your best players....right?

Plus..you should have picked up Knowshon before I did.

Eff it. Maybe I'll just start all back ups and start my IR guys and give you the W. I picked up Andre Brown for free and he goes down just when he starts killing it.

gumby74
11-27-2012, 03:43 PM
OK...let's test your theory. I am predicting HOF for Brett Favre. According to your theory...in all the time that Brett played, he should be the only one that is admitted into the HOF who played in his era...is that how it works?

It's my own definition, not the criteria of the actual HoF. Favre will make the HoF. But if it were up to me he wouldn't.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 03:43 PM
For the record...Rivers will end up doing it in far less.

so what....:p

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 03:44 PM
so what....:p
Exactly.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 03:49 PM
If there is one stat that means the most as far as how well a QB is throwing the ball it would be the ratio between TD's and Int's. It measures production vs. the cost of that production.
In today's NFL, that number should be at least 2 to 1. All the best QB's always meet that standard (or come close)...except of course one.

ehh not really....see how many rushing TDs there were as well....Not saying this is the deal with Eli but you get the idea.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 03:49 PM
It's my own definition, not the criteria of the actual HoF. Favre will make the HoF. But if it were up to me he wouldn't.

why??

sharick88
11-27-2012, 03:50 PM
i know some of us are guilty of nit picking on eli for this and that , but he is darn good when he is on. its just the up and down two faced QB thing.

I don't even nitpick. I accept Eli for everything that he is. He is a great qb that is prone to mistakes. These blind Eli homers make me sick because they act like he can't do anything wrong. It's always everyone else's fault except for Eli's. I don't feel like he is elite and I don't care if he is. He is great for this team and as a giants fan, that's all that I care about.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 03:54 PM
ehh not really....see how many rushing TDs there were as well....Not saying this is the deal with Eli but you get the idea.
A QB in thier prime in this pass friendly league, should be at or near 2 to 1. If you look at the best QB's now, they are all much better than 2 to 1. Obviously their are other factors. A guy who doesn't throw a lot of passes can have a good ratio and not be especially productive. But Eli lives in a passing offense. 15 TD's and 11 picks is poor. Its not mediocre...its poor for a 9 year vet in a pass first offense.
I do give both Eli and Cutler a bit of slack in this because there are other factors. In Cutler's case, he's running for his life all the time withthe worst O lin in football and has only one real WR to throw to. In Eli's case he has a knack for the clutch and has 2 SB's in his pocket.
But the reality is that he really hasn't played well this season. He's had spurts, but on average its been a down year so far.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 04:01 PM
A QB in thier prime in this pass friendly league, should be at or near 2 to 1. If you look at the best QB's now, they are all much better than 2 to 1. Obviously their are other factors. A guy who doesn't throw a lot of passes can have a good ratio and not be especially productive. But Eli lives in a passing offense. 15 TD's and 11 picks is poor. Its not mediocre...its poor for a 9 year vet in a pass first offense.
I do give both Eli and Cutler a bit of slack in this because there are other factors. In Cutler's case, he's running for his life all the time withthe worst O lin in football and has only one real WR to throw to. In Eli's case he has a knack for the clutch and has 2 SB's in his pocket.
But the reality is that he really hasn't played well this season. He's had spurts, but on average its been a down year so far.
I know I watch football. No need to explain....lol

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 04:04 PM
I know I watch football. No need to explain....lol
Morehead's in a rambling mood today.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 04:13 PM
Morehead's in a rambling mood today.

all good....just busting.
It does infuriate me, as well as all Giants fans, when Eli look lost. I dont get it. I wonder if he even knows why?? Either way there are far more good days then bad.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 04:16 PM
all good....just busting.
It does infuriate me, as well as all Giants fans, when Eli look lost. I dont get it. I wonder if he even knows why?? Either way there are far more good days then bad.
There are.

But is that the standard for greatness anymore? ...........More good days than bad days?

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 04:17 PM
Hey GT,

What's up with that Bear-shark-octopus eating signature of yours?

gumby74
11-27-2012, 06:10 PM
It's my own definition, not the criteria of the actual HoF. Favre will make the HoF. But if it were up to me he wouldn't.


why??

20 years from now, if you can answer the question (in a heartbeat), "who's was the standout QB at that time period" or "who was the QB that had the wow factor", then he'd belong. Marino, Montana, Peyton, Brady all standout. In the early 90's and and early 2000's was there any QB that really blew your mind? It was a dead period of QBs as far as I'm concerned. If I had to choose a QB, it would be Randall Cunningham. Not because he was the best QB but he was pretty amazing and revolutionary at his position. Same thing with Bo Jackson.

When I go visit the HoF, I want to look at each player and be wowed. It's like comparing Matt Ryan and RG3. Ryan while putting great numbers is very vanilla - boring. Nothing special. RG3 - people will remember.

Edit: Hmm ..maybe Favre would belong ...

chasjay
11-27-2012, 06:38 PM
A QB in thier prime in this pass friendly league, should be at or near 2 to 1. If you look at the best QB's now, they are all much better than 2 to 1.

I think 2 to 1 is a little strict. Using 7 current QB's with a few years in the league, with a .50 representing a 2 to 1 ratio, my math shows Rodgers at .281, Brady at .375, Peyton at .482, Brees and Rivers tied at .509, Ben at .58 and Eli at .696. There may be others with several years in the league at or below 2 to 1, but I didn't check them all.

You are correct that QB's in this age have better ratings as a whole. The 7 past QB's I checked are: Steve Young at .464, Montana at .510, Marino at .60, Elway at .756, Phil at .791, Aikman at .857 and Terry Bardshaw at 1.00.

My in-depth analysis is that Eli throws too many picks and he's still my favorite quarterback.

keyofgmen
11-27-2012, 06:49 PM
Forget your Stats..forget the hype...forget the media...forget your own 'IMHO"

Eli gives us a chance to win the SB each year...

that's good enough for me...

GameTime
11-27-2012, 07:31 PM
There are.

But is that the standard for greatness anymore? ...........More good days than bad days?
no its not but its Eli's way....its his way of greatness...lol

GameTime
11-27-2012, 07:32 PM
20 years from now, if you can answer the question (in a heartbeat), "who's was the standout QB at that time period" or "who was the QB that had the wow factor", then he'd belong. Marino, Montana, Peyton, Brady all standout. In the early 90's and and early 2000's was there any QB that really blew your mind? It was a dead period of QBs as far as I'm concerned. If I had to choose a QB, it would be Randall Cunningham. Not because he was the best QB but he was pretty amazing and revolutionary at his position. Same thing with Bo Jackson.

When I go visit the HoF, I want to look at each player and be wowed. It's like comparing Matt Ryan and RG3. Ryan while putting great numbers is very vanilla - boring. Nothing special. RG3 - people will remember.

Edit: Hmm ..maybe Favre would belong ...
Marino and Montana not in Favre's era. 20 years from now when I think back to my 30s and 40s I will def think Farve was one of the best...no doubt.

GameTime
11-27-2012, 07:34 PM
Hey GT,

What's up with that Bear-shark-octopus eating signature of yours?

that was somehting from last year. Somebody commented on what type of animal they thought JPP was. It was said he was like a bear, shark, and octopus. if IIRC...someone else shopped the animals together and I put Rodgers in its mouth.....

Redskins4eva
11-27-2012, 08:12 PM
I'm pretty sure that Eli Manning is elite. Phil Simms is just jealous that Eli has suppased him as the Giants greatest QB of all time.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 08:13 PM
20 years from now, if you can answer the question (in a heartbeat), "who's was the standout QB at that time period" or "who was the QB that had the wow factor", then he'd belong. Marino, Montana, Peyton, Brady all standout. In the early 90's and and early 2000's was there any QB that really blew your mind? It was a dead period of QBs as far as I'm concerned. If I had to choose a QB, it would be Randall Cunningham. Not because he was the best QB but he was pretty amazing and revolutionary at his position. Same thing with Bo Jackson.

When I go visit the HoF, I want to look at each player and be wowed. It's like comparing Matt Ryan and RG3. Ryan while putting great numbers is very vanilla - boring. Nothing special. RG3 - people will remember.

Edit: Hmm ..maybe Favre would belong ...

You are dead on with Randall Cunningham. That guy was flat out great. And a Giants killer as well.
He is the one guy (other than my boy) who deserves to be in the Hall, and isn't.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 08:15 PM
I'm pretty sure that Eli Manning is elite. Phil Simms is just jealous that Eli has suppased him as the Giants greatest QB of all time.
The Skins fan disagrees with me.



I win!!!!

alentown pa
11-27-2012, 09:21 PM
You are dead on with Randall Cunningham. That guy was flat out great. And a Giants killer as well.
He is the one guy (other than my boy) who deserves to be in the Hall, and isn't.

Do remember that 90 some yard punt he had against us in 1989?....those were some crazy games with the giants and eagles...1988 to 1990

ManningToJPP
11-27-2012, 09:31 PM
that was somehting from last year. Somebody commented on what type of animal they thought JPP was. It was said he was like a bear, shark, and octopus. if IIRC...someone else shopped the animals together and I put Rodgers in its mouth.....

JPP is a sloth. A very fast and hostile sloth.

Rudyy
11-27-2012, 09:38 PM
JPP is a sloth. A very fast and hostile sloth.Everytime I see your sig, it makes me want to cry. Poor Eli..

Dline83
11-27-2012, 10:07 PM
A QB in thier prime in this pass friendly league, should be at or near 2 to 1. If you look at the best QB's now, they are all much better than 2 to 1. Obviously their are other factors. A guy who doesn't throw a lot of passes can have a good ratio and not be especially productive. But Eli lives in a passing offense. 15 TD's and 11 picks is poor. Its not mediocre...its poor for a 9 year vet in a pass first offense.
I do give both Eli and Cutler a bit of slack in this because there are other factors. In Cutler's case, he's running for his life all the time withthe worst O lin in football and has only one real WR to throw to. In Eli's case he has a knack for the clutch and has 2 SB's in his pocket.
But the reality is that he really hasn't played well this season. He's had spurts, but on average its been a down year so far.

After all of the stats bashing, just throwing out the numbers 15 td to 11 int doesn't prove that Manning is performing sub par this year. How many dropped td passes have there been so far this year? How many times has Manning been under pressure?

What about dropped passes, Cruz and Bennett have 14 between the two of them.

We have ran the ball 283 times good for the 9th most attempts in the league this year, hardly seems like an exclusively passing offense. Brown had 8 rushing tds, many from one or two yards out.

I think there have been some bad games and some good games, but why blame only one person for the outcome either way. We are in first place in the division, in the upper third of all offensive categories, and getting closer and closer to another playoff birth. There have been bad throws and amazing throws, just like every other team.

Check out this article about interceptions, might change your mind on the whole 2 to 1 ratio.

http://www.footballperspective.com/interceptions-per-incompletion-or-popip/

GameTime
11-27-2012, 10:11 PM
JPP is a sloth. A very fast and hostile sloth.

hmm....that makes no sense....but whatever....

Dline83
11-27-2012, 10:26 PM
JPP is a sloth. A very fast and hostile sloth.

I would say he is more like a rabid honey badger who just doesn't give a @&$@!

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 10:57 PM
Do remember that 90 some yard punt he had against us in 1989?....those were some crazy games with the giants and eagles...1988 to 1990
I was at that game. coldest I ever was in my life.
We had come back from being 14 down and had them pinned, then Cunningham did that and a win turned into a loss. It wasn't just a great punt, it won the game for them.

Morehead State
11-27-2012, 10:59 PM
After all of the stats bashing, just throwing out the numbers 15 td to 11 int doesn't prove that Manning is performing sub par this year. How many dropped td passes have there been so far this year? How many times has Manning been under pressure?

What about dropped passes, Cruz and Bennett have 14 between the two of them.

We have ran the ball 283 times good for the 9th most attempts in the league this year, hardly seems like an exclusively passing offense. Brown had 8 rushing tds, many from one or two yards out.

I think there have been some bad games and some good games, but why blame only one person for the outcome either way. We are in first place in the division, in the upper third of all offensive categories, and getting closer and closer to another playoff birth. There have been bad throws and amazing throws, just like every other team.

Check out this article about interceptions, might change your mind on the whole 2 to 1 ratio.

http://www.footballperspective.com/interceptions-per-incompletion-or-popip/

every QB has passes dropped. there were also two potention Int's dropped in the end zone at SF and against washington that Eli threw. Have you seen how many passed Finley has dropped for Rodgers?

Dline83
11-27-2012, 11:18 PM
every QB has passes dropped. there were also two potention Int's dropped in the end zone at SF and against washington that Eli threw. Have you seen how many passed Finley has dropped for Rodgers?

Right, and how many other recieving options has Rodgers had? my point is that to say that Eli is having a sub par year just because you point out his 15 td to 11 int doesn't prove that. We are still in first place, in the top third of ever offensive category, are close to another playoff birth and division title, how exactly is that sub par? You also fail to mention the amount of pressure Eli was under during the last four games, 6 sacks from Washington through Cinncinnati, and multiple hits in those games as well. Given that he only has 13 sacks overall, you can assume that the problems in the last four games were not as simple as Eli being sub par.

giantsfan420
11-27-2012, 11:34 PM
wasnt eli leading the league in yards up until like 4 weeks ago? he had a poor 3-4 game stretch. season still has 5 games yet as well. its not quite the season i expected, but i know there are like 28 other teams that would kill to have their qb play as eli has this season...theres been a lot of knee jerk reactions bc of those poor slump games imo...

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 11:40 PM
I'm pretty sure that Eli Manning is elite. Phil Simms is just jealous that Eli has suppased him as the Giants greatest QB of all time.

Yeah, that's it.

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 11:42 PM
You are dead on with Randall Cunningham. That guy was flat out great. And a Giants killer as well.
He is the one guy (other than my boy) who deserves to be in the Hall, and isn't.

He was a Giant killer. Very special talent.

Roosevelt
11-27-2012, 11:43 PM
Do remember that 90 some yard punt he had against us in 1989?....those were some crazy games with the giants and eagles...1988 to 1990

I do. That was some crazy ****.

Roosevelt
11-28-2012, 12:21 AM
wasnt eli leading the league in yards up until like 4 weeks ago? he had a poor 3-4 game stretch. season still has 5 games yet as well. its not quite the season i expected, but i know there are like 28 other teams that would kill to have their qb play as eli has this season...theres been a lot of knee jerk reactions bc of those poor slump games imo...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj6qQdLBwm4

chasjay
11-28-2012, 12:33 AM
Right, and how many other recieving options has Rodgers had? my point is that to say that Eli is having a sub par year just because you point out his 15 td to 11 int doesn't prove that. We are still in first place, in the top third of ever offensive category, are close to another playoff birth and division title, how exactly is that sub par? You also fail to mention the amount of pressure Eli was under during the last four games, 6 sacks from Washington through Cinncinnati, and multiple hits in those games as well. Given that he only has 13 sacks overall, you can assume that the problems in the last four games were not as simple as Eli being sub par.

I get the point that some insist on making - that Eli throws more picks than Rodgers and some others. I also get the fact that Rodgers would never even have tried to throw the Super Bowl pass to Tyree if he was the one that escaped the sack. He'd have tossed it out of bounds or at somebody's feet rather than risk the interception. He's more athletic than Eli, but he doesn't have Eli's cajones. Obviously, that's merely my opinion - but it's mine and it can't be taken away.

Sarcasman
11-28-2012, 12:39 AM
20 years from now, if you can answer the question (in a heartbeat), "who's was the standout QB at that time period" or "who was the QB that had the wow factor", then he'd belong. Marino, Montana, Peyton, Brady all standout. In the early 90's and and early 2000's was there any QB that really blew your mind? It was a dead period of QBs as far as I'm concerned. If I had to choose a QB, it would be Randall Cunningham. Not because he was the best QB but he was pretty amazing and revolutionary at his position. Same thing with Bo Jackson.

When I go visit the HoF, I want to look at each player and be wowed. It's like comparing Matt Ryan and RG3. Ryan while putting great numbers is very vanilla - boring. Nothing special. RG3 - people will remember.

Edit: Hmm ..maybe Favre would belong ...


Right on. Man....I hated him at the time. Play #5...he threw this ball about 60 yards in the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35xd4Upa25k

Incredible throw.

gumby74
11-28-2012, 09:05 AM
wasnt eli leading the league in yards up until like 4 weeks ago? he had a poor 3-4 game stretch. season still has 5 games yet as well. its not quite the season i expected, but i know there are like 28 other teams that would kill to have their qb play as eli has this season...theres been a lot of knee jerk reactions bc of those poor slump games imo...

I don't think anyone is disputing that Eli is a very good QB. What is being disputed however is that his 2011 performance relative to his peers, was the norm - or even close to. 2011 as of now (no one know what the future holds) was an aberration. Had Eli continued to produce at the level he began this season, no one would be questioning him.

Every QB struggles from time to time. But the best in the game - Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Peyton don't struggle nearly as long or as bad as Eli when he does struggle.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 09:29 AM
I get the point that some insist on making - that Eli throws more picks than Rodgers and some others. I also get the fact that Rodgers would never even have tried to throw the Super Bowl pass to Tyree if he was the one that escaped the sack. He'd have tossed it out of bounds or at somebody's feet rather than risk the interception. He's more athletic than Eli, but he doesn't have Eli's cajones. Obviously, that's merely my opinion - but it's mine and it can't be taken away.
Your argument would have some validity if Eli threw more TD's than Rodgers. But its simply not true. If Eli had more "cajones", his TD's would be off the charts. His TD's are much lower than all the elite QB's.

GameTime
11-28-2012, 09:33 AM
Your argument would have some validity if Eli threw more TD's than Rodgers. But its simply not true. If Eli had more "cajones", his TD's would be off the charts. His TD's are much lower than all the elite QB's.
and yet he and the Giants have two rings.......good trade off IMO

Lots of TD's and low picks and tons of yards doent always equal Rings....ask Marino....

GCGiant
11-28-2012, 09:46 AM
Eli has proven that he is a franchise QB. He has delivered an amazing 28.6% championship/years as starter to this point. (leaving '04 out since he didn't start the whole year)
He is elite, whatever that means.
Here is an honest question you have to ask yourself., though. If you could go back and start over and replace Eli with Brady or whoever and take whatever results that come...or would you take the results you already have and be satisfied? Personally, I would take what I got but that's just me.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 09:47 AM
and yet he and the Giants have two rings.......good trade off IMO

Lots of TD's and low picks and tons of yards doent always equal Rings....ask Marino....
No one is happier than I am about that.
I am simply commenting on someone else's argument. When a poster says that Eli has more "cajones" than another player and thats why he throws more picks, I made the argument that the facts don't support that.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 09:49 AM
Eli has proven that he is a franchise QB. He has delivered an amazing 28.6% championship/years as starter to this point. (leaving '04 out since he didn't start the whole year)
He is elite, whatever that means.
Here is an honest question you have to ask yourself., though. If you could go back and start over and replace Eli with Brady or whoever and take whatever results that come...or would you take the results you already have and be satisfied? Personally, I would take what I got but that's just me.

Eli didn't "deliver" anything. Eli was certainly an important part of our championships, especially last year. But both those SB's were team efforts.

GameTime
11-28-2012, 09:50 AM
No one is happier than I am about that.
I am simply commenting on someone else's argument. When a poster says that Eli has more "cajones" than another player and thats why he throws more picks, I made the argument that the facts don't support that.

I hear you Bro....I just dig commenting on your posts to get you to respond. I am padding my stats (posts)...:)

GCGiant
11-28-2012, 09:50 AM
Eli didn't "deliver" anything. Eli was certainly an important part of our championships, especially last year. But both those SB's were team efforts.

Never said they weren't...but Eli was playing QB for that team...and that's what we're talking about. Try to keep up! :)

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 09:54 AM
I hear you Bro....I just dig commenting on your posts to get you to respond. I am padding my stats (posts)...:)
Seems like I have to take the "keeping it real" argument regarding Eli by myself sometimes.
I'm not knocking our QB, but this hero worship and blind denial by some has to be challenged by someone.

GameTime
11-28-2012, 09:56 AM
Seems like I have to take the "keeping it real" argument regarding Eli by myself sometimes.
I'm not knocking our QB, but this hero worship and blind denial by some has to be challenged by someone.

No....keep to yourself. Impossible for you!!! As it should be.
Me personally....I dont have blind hero worship for Eli. I know exactly what Eli is. You can disect him and outline what he is and what he isnt. But if you do a summary.....overall he is a great QB that gets it done in big moments. I will take the bonehead stuff to go along with the great play.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 09:56 AM
Never said they weren't...but Eli was playing QB for that team...and that's what we're talking about. Try to keep up! :)
OK thats just nonsense. In one post you said that Eli "delivered" two championships and then you claim thats not what you meant. And then later you said that Eli is "elite", but suggested that you had no idea what "elite" is. Well how the hell do you know he's "elite" if you admit that you don't know what it means?
This is what I'm up against here people.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 09:58 AM
No....keep to yourself. Impossible for you!!! As it should be.
Me personally....I dont have blind hero worship for Eli. I know exactly what Eli is. You can disect him and outline what he is and what he isnt. But if you do a summary.....overall he is a great QB that gets it done in big moments. I will take the bonehead stuff to go along with the great play.

No..I know. Its not you I was referring to.

GCGiant
11-28-2012, 09:58 AM
OK thats just nonsense. In one post you said that Eli "delivered" two championships and then you claim thats not what you meant. And then later you said that Eli is "elite", but suggested that you had no idea what "elite" is. Well how the hell do you know he's "elite" if you admit that you don't know what it means?
This is what I'm up against here people.

I see your point...I just wish you could see what we are up against!! BTW...gotcha!

GameTime
11-28-2012, 09:59 AM
No..I know. Its not you I was referring to.

:cool:...cool....I know....

GCGiant
11-28-2012, 10:00 AM
I hear you Bro....I just dig commenting on your posts to get you to respond. I am padding my stats (posts)...:)

Me too. Kinda like we are learning from the pro...right?

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 10:01 AM
I see your point...I just wish you could see what we are up against!! BTW...gotcha!
I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

GameTime
11-28-2012, 10:02 AM
Me too. Kinda like we are learning from the pro...right?

MH..pro?.....please.....:p

GCGiant
11-28-2012, 10:03 AM
I'm an army of 1.
My mission... to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli..........

Fixed that for ya...

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 10:03 AM
MH..pro?.....please.....:p
I don't remember getting a check.

ManningToJPP
11-28-2012, 10:04 AM
I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

Why is you're avatar so hard to figure out?

Asian boy with long hair? Some asian girl's attempt at being seducive? Is it you? Just angry?

GameTime
11-28-2012, 10:04 AM
I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

Dont forget many board members prob dont even have memories of Simms.....
Any QB needss to be thought of 'realisticly....even the glorious Phil Simms.....whom BTW I share a birthday with and I also have a bad ankle as well. Oh yeah...same first name too......

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 10:05 AM
Why is you're avatar so hard to figure out?

Asian boy with long hair? Some asian girl's attempt at being seducive? Is it you? Just angry?
You never saw KillBill?
My dog is named after that character............ Gogo.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 10:06 AM
Dont forget many board members prob dont even have memories of Simms.....
Any QB needss to be thought of 'realisticly....even the glorious Phil Simms.....whom BTW I share a birthday with and I also have a bad ankle as well. Oh yeah...same first name too......
Hah!
I have the same birthday as Dan Marino. But I'm better looking.

GCGiant
11-28-2012, 10:11 AM
To take a quote from Namath...

"I can't wait for tomorrow because I get better looking every day!!"

I could be dreaming, though...because I do have the same BD as MLKing.

chasjay
11-28-2012, 12:12 PM
How elite are you? Is that the actual question?

If anyone thinks that the Giants ownership would, at this point in time, trade Eli, one-for-one for any other QB in the league, then you truly don't believe he's an elite QB. If you believe like I do, that the Giants would not make that trade at this point in Eli's career - I truly don't see how you can say that he's not an elite QB. There are obviously other teams who would not make a trade like that for their QB - those are all teams with QB's they consider elite or will soon be elite.

So I guess the arguments have regressed to various levels of eliteness. My head hurts.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:17 PM
How elite are you? Is that the actual question?

If anyone thinks that the Giants ownership would, at this point in time, trade Eli, one-for-one for any other QB in the league, then you truly don't believe he's an elite QB. If you believe like I do, that the Giants would not make that trade at this point in Eli's career - I truly don't see how you can say that he's not an elite QB. There are obviously other teams who would not make a trade like that for their QB - those are all teams with QB's they consider elite or will soon be elite.

So I guess the arguments have regressed to various levels of eliteness. My head hurts.

Bottom line is that Eli is (in my view) the sixth best QB in the NFL. I suppose an argument can be made that he's fifth best. I would disagree but even if I concede that....Is the fifth best QB in the league "elite"?
I don't think so. But I suppose everyone has a right to their opinion.

geonyg
11-28-2012, 12:21 PM
that this is still being "discussed" here.

This place is also amazing.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:22 PM
that this is still being "discussed" here.

This place is also amazing.
Only because the combatants are amazing.

geonyg
11-28-2012, 12:26 PM
exactly

chasjay
11-28-2012, 12:26 PM
Only because the combatants are amazing.

"The Amazing Morehead State" - has a nice ring to it :)

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:27 PM
exactly
....in a good way.

dezzzR
11-28-2012, 12:27 PM
I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.So its about stats, and not results?

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:28 PM
So its about stats, and not results?
Its about whatever I say its about Dezzy.

Dline83
11-28-2012, 12:31 PM
Bottom line is that Eli is (in my view) the sixth best QB in the NFL. I suppose an argument can be made that he's fifth best. I would disagree but even if I concede that....Is the fifth best QB in the league "elite"?
I don't think so. But I suppose everyone has a right to their opinion.


I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

I would say that the 6th best qb in the league, with two Super Bowl wins, two Super Bowl MVP awards, and many other accolades would be considered one of the greats of the era. The word elite really is meaningless, and my argument has never been that he is elite, I do think that he is one of the best qbs in the league, and the best qb the Giants have ever had, just my opinion.

A qb can be elite from game to game, was Rodgers last game "elite"? How about Payton's three pick performance earlier in the year? The different things that play into each of those games and the outcomes also are rarely taken into consideration. Against the Steelers our line could do barely anything to stop the pressure from getting to Manning. You commented somewhere about the int he threw right into the arms of the linebacker in the Washington game, it is really impossible to know why he did not see the player there, throwing lanes not being open, under pressure, the play breaking down, it could be any multiple of things. Im not making an excuse for the throw or the outcome, bad decision to throw it, but I am saying that to just lay the blame on the fact that he did not see him is really not looking at the play fully. I don't really care if people think Eli is elite or not, but I do think that when he has beaten some of the best qbs in the game on the biggest stages multiple times, that a good amount of credit is due.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 12:34 PM
I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

I was watching the Giants well before Phil ever hit the scene.

Eli is SOOOOOO much better then Phil was.

Is Eli *the* best QB ever? No, certainly not.

Is he "elite"? Subjective to be sure, but I believe he is.

Does Phil have sour grapes? Maybe a bit.

Does Phil throw up controversial talking points like this to keep his name relevant like almost any other analyst and commentator? Definitely.

Ironically, in 20 years, you'll be talking about Eli in the same manner you're talking about Simms now, and decrying (for "realists" sake) the hot new kid on the block.

I'm on to you! :p

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:35 PM
I would say that the 6th best qb in the league, with two Super Bowl wins, two Super Bowl MVP awards, and many other accolades would be considered one of the greats of the era. The word elite really is meaningless, and my argument has never been that he is elite, I do think that he is one of the best qbs in the league, and the best qb the Giants have ever had, just my opinion.

A qb can be elite from game to game, was Rodgers last game "elite"? How about Payton's three pick performance earlier in the year? The different things that play into each of those games and the outcomes also are rarely taken into consideration. Against the Steelers our line could do barely anything to stop the pressure from getting to Manning. You commented somewhere about the int he threw right into the arms of the linebacker in the Washington game, it is really impossible to know why he did not see the player there, throwing lanes not being open, under pressure, the play breaking down, it could be any multiple of things. Im not making an excuse for the throw or the outcome, bad decision to throw it, but I am saying that to just lay the blame on the fact that he did not see him is really not looking at the play fully. I don't really care if people think Eli is elite or not, but I do think that when he has beaten some of the best qbs in the game on the biggest stages multiple times, that a good amount of credit is due.

As i said, everyone has a right to their opinion. To me "elite" is the best of the best. 6th best doesn't qualify. If it was 6th out of 100? Maybe. 6th out of 32? I don't think so.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 12:37 PM
As i said, everyone has a right to their opinion. To me "elite" is the best of the best. 6th best doesn't qualify. If it was 6th out of 100? Maybe. 6th out of 32? I don't think so.

Name the 5 better than Eli.

*goes off to pop some popcorn*

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:38 PM
Name the 5 better than Eli.

*goes off to pop some popcorn*
You figure it out.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 12:39 PM
You figure it out.

Thought so.

Chicken ****.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:41 PM
Thought so.

Chicken ****.
Keep dropping that line...I aint biting.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 12:42 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ivuW0doY0Z0/TD5syvwcHuI/AAAAAAAACK8/ufk6_1Fx4jg/s1600/cowardly_lion.jpg

Just to show you what a set of balls looks like:

1) Tom Brady
2) Eli Manning
3) Ben Roflbergers
4) Peyton Manning
T-5) Aaron Rodgers - Drew Brees

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 12:43 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ivuW0doY0Z0/TD5syvwcHuI/AAAAAAAACK8/ufk6_1Fx4jg/s1600/cowardly_lion.jpg

I'd make that bow work.

Ruttiger711
11-28-2012, 01:00 PM
You never saw KillBill?
My dog is named after that character............ Gogo.

Woman at my office is a dead ringer for her.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 01:08 PM
Woman at my office is a dead ringer for her.
Does she carry weapons?

GameTime
11-28-2012, 01:09 PM
I'd make that bow work.

dont know if thats good or bad....Harooni may like it though....

giantsfan420
11-28-2012, 01:27 PM
people have kneejerk reactions whether its "hes the best ever" bc of a phenomenal game or "he's not elite" bc he has a few bad games yearly.

MS, do you consider how you were saying Peyton was done a month or so into the season a knee jerk response looking back at your comments now? Don't want to go fishing for the posts but I recall seeing some posts where you were adamant that Peyton was not gonna be anywhere near the player he was....

peytons a good example of how people are so quick to forget the things they've said in what I refer to as "knee jerk" responses. A lot of people were writing Peyton off bc he didnt come out lighting it up the way he is now, and look how silly those responses were. Similarily, whenever eli has a rough spot, people come out and claim he was overrated, and a very good but not great qb...and then he leads the team to an epic SB run...twice...Im gonna wait until the final 5 reg season games are played to assess his reg season, then wait for the postseasons conclusion to assess his play there but i certainly believe eli has done way more than enough consistently to be considered elite and that opinion is prevalent now

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 01:31 PM
people have kneejerk reactions whether its "hes the best ever" bc of a phenomenal game or "he's not elite" bc he has a few bad games yearly.

MS, do you consider how you were saying Peyton was done a month or so into the season a knee jerk response looking back at your comments now? Don't want to go fishing for the posts but I recall seeing some posts where you were adamant that Peyton was not gonna be anywhere near the player he was....

I never once said anything negative about Peyton. I picked them to win the AFC solely because they now had Peyton.
As Roger Clemens says.."You must be misremembering".
Even in the game where he had the three picks in Atlanta, he still brought them back. Because he's PEYTON MANNING!

dezzzR
11-28-2012, 01:33 PM
I never once said anything negative about Peyton. I picked them to win the AFC solely because they now had Peyton.
As Roger Clemens says.."You must be misremembering".
Even in the game where he had the three picks in Atlanta, he still brought them back. Because he's PEYTON MANNING!Isnt that the exact same thing Eli did vs Wash a few weeks ago??????

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 01:34 PM
Isnt that the exact same thing Eli did vs Wash a few weeks ago??????
Well there you go Dezzy. Everyone wins!

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 01:45 PM
Does she carry weapons?

Don't they all?

BuffyBlueII
11-28-2012, 01:51 PM
people have kneejerk reactions whether its "hes the best ever" bc of a phenomenal game or "he's not elite" bc he has a few bad games yearly.

MS, do you consider how you were saying Peyton was done a month or so into the season a knee jerk response looking back at your comments now? Don't want to go fishing for the posts but I recall seeing some posts where you were adamant that Peyton was not gonna be anywhere near the player he was....

peytons a good example of how people are so quick to forget the things they've said in what I refer to as "knee jerk" responses. A lot of people were writing Peyton off bc he didnt come out lighting it up the way he is now, and look how silly those responses were. Similarily, whenever eli has a rough spot, people come out and claim he was overrated, and a very good but not great qb...and then he leads the team to an epic SB run...twice...Im gonna wait until the final 5 reg season games are played to assess his reg season, then wait for the postseasons conclusion to assess his play there but i certainly believe eli has done way more than enough consistently to be considered elite and that opinion is prevalent now

+1

Dline83
11-28-2012, 02:16 PM
As i said, everyone has a right to their opinion. To me "elite" is the best of the best. 6th best doesn't qualify. If it was 6th out of 100? Maybe. 6th out of 32? I don't think so.

If you look at my post I never said anything about him being elite, I said the word is meaningless. I was making a comment that you said he was not one of the greats of our time, which I would think the 6th best in the league (in your opinion), the two Super Bowls, two Super Bowl MVP, and all the wins would qualify him as one of the greats of our time. So by your logic only the number one qb in the league playing right now can be considered "a great of our time"?

Ruttiger711
11-28-2012, 02:18 PM
Does she carry weapons?

6" Stilletos

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 02:55 PM
If you look at my post I never said anything about him being elite, I said the word is meaningless. I was making a comment that you said he was not one of the greats of our time, which I would think the 6th best in the league (in your opinion), the two Super Bowls, two Super Bowl MVP, and all the wins would qualify him as one of the greats of our time. So by your logic only the number one qb in the league playing right now can be considered "a great of our time"?
Look as far as I'm concerned there is Brady and Peyton, then a big drop off to Rodgers and Brees, then another big drop off to Eli and Ben. But there are a few nipping at Ben and Eli's heels.
Thats the hierarchy as far as I'm concerned.
I don't give a **** what you call any of them. "Elite", "Great"....whatever.

L.T.56
11-28-2012, 02:58 PM
all i know is that eli is a proven winner and has come up huge in big situations. that's good enough for me.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 03:14 PM
Look as far as I'm concerned there is Brady and Peyton, then a big drop off to Rodgers and Brees, then another big drop off to Eli and Ben. But there are a few nipping at Ben and Eli's heels.
Thats the hierarchy as far as I'm concerned.
I don't give a **** what you call any of them. "Elite", "Great"....whatever.

The reason I put Eli ahead of Peyton, Rodgers and Brees ...

1) Peyton - Great regular season QB ... tries to shoulder too much, especially during the post season. And Eli has more rings in a shorter time span. Peyton definitely gets the nod towards stats but loses to Eli on clutch performances.

2) Rodgers - Hasn't done enough yet to warrant being included (although he is well on his way). But if you're going to put him in the mix, Eli definitely has outdone him resume wise.

3) Brees - Eli edges Brees on clutch performances as well as rings. Brees beats Eli on stats. 2 > 1. Again, if you compare the two as of today. Also Brees has had a MUCH better cast to work with (imo).

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 03:19 PM
The reason I put Eli ahead of Peyton, Rodgers and Brees ...

1) Peyton - Great regular season QB ... tries to shoulder too much, especially during the post season. And Eli has more rings in a shorter time span. Peyton definitely gets the nod towards stats but loses to Eli on clutch performances.

2) Rodgers - Hasn't done enough yet to warrant being included (although he is well on his way). But if you're going to put him in the mix, Eli definitely has outdone him resume wise.

3) Brees - Eli edges Brees on clutch performances as well as rings. Brees beats Eli on stats. 2 > 1. Again, if you compare the two as of today. Also Brees has had a MUCH better cast to work with (imo).

There are about 8 (all Giants fans) who would put Eli over any of those 3 guys. Looks like you are one of them.

To say that our guy is as good as Peyton, Brees or Rodgers just defies logic. Thats not a knock on Eli because those guys are just flat great.

You do know it takes more than a QB to win a SB.....Right?

L.T.56
11-28-2012, 03:23 PM
to me peyton is the arguably the greatest quarterback in the history of the nfl. the way he commands an offense and the numbers he has put up so far in his career are just amazing. look how well he is doing with denver even after being out for over a year. he could easily be the nfl mvp this year in my opinion. so many people thought he made the wrong choice in picking denver over san fran cause denver is a cold weather city and they are not nearly a contender as san fran is and so far peyton has proved all those people wrong.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 03:36 PM
Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Eli on a consistent basis and doesn't seem to suffer nearly as bad slumps BUT...I think there needs to be an asterisk beside his name that explains he had 3 years to sit on the bench before having to take any serious snaps. We never really got to see crappy Rodgers because he was protected on the bench.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 03:45 PM
to me peyton is the arguably the greatest quarterback in the history of the nfl. the way he commands an offense and the numbers he has put up so far in his career are just amazing. look how well he is doing with denver even after being out for over a year. he could easily be the nfl mvp this year in my opinion. so many people thought he made the wrong choice in picking denver over san fran cause denver is a cold weather city and they are not nearly a contender as san fran is and so far peyton has proved all those people wrong.
I really think he didn't go to SF because of Harbaugh. Not that Harbaugh doesn't know his stuff because he's a good football coach.
But he's just a tad nuts. And I think that fact, plus Elway in Denver, made his decision for him.

Dline83
11-28-2012, 03:51 PM
Look as far as I'm concerned there is Brady and Peyton, then a big drop off to Rodgers and Brees, then another big drop off to Eli and Ben. But there are a few nipping at Ben and Eli's heels.
Thats the hierarchy as far as I'm concerned.
I don't give a **** what you call any of them. "Elite", "Great"....whatever.

I'm just using your own words...and I do think there is a big difference between calling someone elite or saying that he is not one of the greatest qbs playing of his time. Two rings, and having two of the greatest postseason runs in our franchises history in my eyes qualify Eli being called one of the greats of his time.

GameTime
11-28-2012, 03:52 PM
I really think he didn't go to SF because of Harbaugh. Not that Harbaugh doesn't know his stuff because he's a good football coach.
But he's just a tad nuts. And I think that fact, plus Elway in Denver, made his decision for him.
Agreed....Harbaugh has the "postal" look all the time. He is a time bomb....imagine if his team sucked??

I think he has more than a few screws loose. No way Peyton could take over the offense there....no way.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 03:52 PM
There are about 8 (all Giants fans) who would put Eli over any of those 3 guys. Looks like you are one of them.

To say that our guy is as good as Peyton, Brees or Rodgers just defies logic. Thats not a knock on Eli because those guys are just flat great.

You do know it takes more than a QB to win a SB.....Right?

Anyone putting Rodgers into this discussion is just reacting on the last game played. He wasn't a starting QB until 2008 and he just doesn't have the total resume to make a comparison like that yet. Granted, if he continues on the way he has been he will definitely eclipse most (if not all) of the players mentioned, but let's wait until he gets there first. Lots of QBs over the course of history have fallen into that category.

Peyton: I've always liked clutch QBs over stat guys (one of the reasons I think Montana is a better QB than Marino, stats aside). Peyton very much reminds me of Dan Marino and has been more successful. However, if given the option for a big game, I take Eli every time (just like I'd take Montana over Marino every time except maybe in a QB competition).

Brees: This is a bit tougher. Better stats but half the rings. I like Brees better than Peyton or Rodgers (resume wise), however his one ring was more due to a pick-6 then his own heroics (which is not to say he didn't play very well in that Super Bowl mind you). I think you could make a very good argument for Brees being better than Eli, but given Eli's heroic wins, again I favor the clutch performer. That and I'll readily admit that I'm being a homer here.

Roflberger: He suffers a bit from the same problem that Eli does ... he doesn't look like a prototypical QB when he's doing his thing and he doesn't have the outrageous stats that someone not familiar with how he plays would ogle over. However Ben (as is being shown now) is a winner and sometimes wins and rings are the biggest stats there are. In this regard, Roflberger is definitely in the Top 3 in the league.

As for your "takes more than a QB to win a SB ...", don't be a straw man. You as well as I know that the QB is the single most influential component to a SB winning team (especially in the current climate of the NFL).

Having said all that, all the QBs mentioned are today's top QBs (no matter what order you want to put them in) and the fact that we can have this conversation is a testament to the fact that Eli, is indeed ... elite.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 03:53 PM
I really think he didn't go to SF because of Harbaugh. Not that Harbaugh doesn't know his stuff because he's a good football coach.
But he's just a tad nuts. And I think that fact, plus Elway in Denver, made his decision for him.

Agreed ... that and I think Harbaugh believes he was a better QB (or comparable) to Peyton *laugh*

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 03:56 PM
Anyone putting Rodgers into this discussion is just reacting on the last game played. He wasn't a starting QB until 2008 and he just doesn't have the total resume to make a comparison like that yet. Granted, if he continues on the way he has been he will definitely eclipse most (if not all) of the players mentioned, but let's wait until he gets there first. Lots of QBs over the course of history have fallen into that category.

Peyton: I've always liked clutch QBs over stat guys (one of the reasons I think Montana is a better QB than Marino, stats aside). Peyton very much reminds me of Dan Marino and has been more successful. However, if given the option for a big game, I take Eli every time (just like I'd take Montana over Marino every time except maybe in a QB competition).

Brees: This is a bit tougher. Better stats but half the rings. I like Brees better than Peyton or Rodgers (resume wise), however his one ring was more due to a pick-6 then his own heroics (which is not to say he didn't play very well in that Super Bowl mind you). I think you could make a very good argument for Brees being better than Eli, but given Eli's heroic wins, again I favor the clutch performer. That and I'll readily admit that I'm being a homer here.

Roflberger: He suffers a bit from the same problem that Eli does ... he doesn't look like a prototypical QB when he's doing his thing and he doesn't have the outrageous stats that someone not familiar with how he plays would ogle over. However Ben (as is being shown now) is a winner and sometimes wins and rings are the biggest stats there are. In this regard, Roflberger is definitely in the Top 3 in the league.

As for your "takes more than a QB to win a SB ...", don't be a straw man. You as well as I know that the QB is the single most influential component to a SB winning team (especially in the current climate of the NFL).

Having said all that, all the QBs mentioned are today's top QBs (no matter what order you want to put them in) and the fact that we can have this conversation is a testament to the fact that Eli, is indeed ... elite.
A Superbowl win and a league MVP. Plus unGodly numbers....thats a pretty good resume.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 03:57 PM
Agreed ... that and I think Harbaugh believes he was a better QB (or comparable) to Peyton *laugh*
I will say this about Harbaugh...I don't know what got into him but for one season, he was a great QB.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 03:59 PM
A Superbowl win and a league MVP. Plus unGodly numbers....thats a pretty good resume.

Rodgers doesn't have ungodly numbers ... yet. He's on an ungodly pace ... there's a difference.

And it's a great resume ... just not as full as the aforementioned QBs.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 04:00 PM
I will say this about Harbaugh...I don't know what got into him but for one season, he was a great QB.

Yep ... but so was Mark Rypien and a couple of dozen other unremarkable QBs.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 04:02 PM
Rodgers doesn't have ungodly numbers ... yet. He's on an ungodly pace ... there's a difference.

And it's a great resume ... just not as full as the aforementioned QBs.
There is?

OK lets put it this way....Every season, he's had unGodly numbers. I mean the guy has never NOT thrown for 4000 yards. And he's not in any dome up there.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 04:02 PM
Yep ... but so was Mark Rypien and a couple of dozen other unremarkable QBs.
What does that have to do with anything?

Giants5699
11-28-2012, 04:04 PM
Phil played in a defense only league. Eli plays in an offense only league.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 04:08 PM
There is?

OK lets put it this way....Every season, he's had unGodly numbers. I mean the guy has never NOT thrown for 4000 yards. And he's not in any dome up there.

Sure there's a difference ... otherwise Cam Newton could have retired last year and would be in Canton in 2017.

Otherwise I agree on your points ... up to now. However *now* is half a career.

P.S. - Rodgers has thrown for less than 4k yards almost as many times has he's thrown for more than 4k yards ;)

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 04:09 PM
How many games has Eli had this season where he was consistently "elite" throughout the entire 60 minutes? I'd say he did fantastic against the Browns (That 1 INT was blatant PI) and had a great 2nd half against TB but he has been too inconsistent for my tastes at this point otherwise. I'd grade him at above average against the Pack since some of those short throw incompletions were just downright atrocious.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 04:09 PM
Phil played in a defense only league. Eli plays in an offense only league.

Tell that to Marino, Kelly, Montana and Elway.

Definitely a different league back then but let's not pretend it was 1932 either.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 04:10 PM
What does that have to do with anything?

Exactly.

Rodgers' career = incomplete.

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 04:13 PM
Exactly.

Rodgers' career = incomplete.
Everybody who is still playing has an incomplete career. How is this not obvious to you?
So when a guy is still playing we shouldn't talk about him?

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 04:19 PM
Everybody who is still playing has an incomplete career. How is this not obvious to you?
So when a guy is still playing we shouldn't talk about him?

If Brady, Brees, Roflberger, Peyton and Eli were to drop dead today, they would be HoFers (Eli being borderline but I believe his two MVPs would put him over the top, as would Roflberger and his # of SB appearances).

Rodgers would not be in the HoF.

Or do you dispute that?

Morehead State
11-28-2012, 04:24 PM
If Brady, Brees, Roflberger, Peyton and Eli were to drop dead today, they would be HoFers (Eli being borderline but I believe his two MVPs would put him over the top, as would Roflberger and his # of SB appearances).

Rodgers would not be in the HoF.

Or do you dispute that?

What does Hall of Fame status have to do with a complete or incomplete career?
And as for your little dire scenario, I have no idea what motivates a bunch of sports writers.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 04:28 PM
What does Hall of Fame status have to do with a complete or incomplete career?
And as for your little dire scenario, I have no idea what motivates a bunch of sports writers.

You make equivocating an art form sir.

And you also made my point. :)

In any event, I think Simms was just throwing up **** to see what would stick (he hasn't been this talked about since 86). If you truly don't think Eli is elite, then cool. As a Giants fan, I'll enjoy my little bit of self induced nirvana :D

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 04:31 PM
Eli has legendary moments but he's not like a Marino, Peyton, or Brady that you can insert almost any gametape and expect to be wowed by fireworks if that makes sense. Rodgers and Brees are there as well but they need more championships.

rebelfan1966
11-28-2012, 04:37 PM
wow.... 117 pages

Giants5699
11-28-2012, 04:40 PM
Tell that to Marino, Kelly, Montana and Elway.

Definitely a different league back then but let's not pretend it was 1932 either.

Marino couldn't win in that league, and Elway couldn't win until the shift from defense to offense happened. Kelly and Montana are the outliers though Kelly dominated a terrible AFC and then got demolished by the NFC.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 04:44 PM
Marino couldn't win in that league, and Elway couldn't win until the shift from defense to offense happened. Kelly and Montana are the outliers though Kelly dominated a terrible AFC and then got demolished by the NFC.

Are you insane? Marino had 3 losing records in 17 years and Elway went to 5 SBs (incidentally the shift from defense to offense didn't happen until after Y2K and the new receiver rules).

Giants5699
11-28-2012, 04:47 PM
Are you insane? Marino had 3 losing records in 17 years and Elway went to 5 SBs (incidentally the shift from defense to offense didn't happen until after Y2K and the new receiver rules).

Yeah Marino's hand has a lot of rings on it.... Elway also dominated a terrible AFC. The AFC couldn't compete with the NFC back then. Those guys couldn't beat teams with good defenses when it mattered or else Elway would have more than 2 rings, Marino would have more than 0, and Kelly would have more than 0. Montana was the outlier, though that team was one of the greatest in history... Romo would have won super bowls on that team.

sharick88
11-28-2012, 04:49 PM
To Brees' credit, his defense is the worst in the league and he STILL got his. Brady still got his in his loss against the seahawks. Even though Rodgers started off 1-3, his stats in those games weren't bad and were posted earlier in thread. You mention those 3 QB's losing to sorry QBs. How about Eli losing to Rex Grosman last year TWICE and Vince Young!!!!! Anyways, you seriously need to get Eli's nuts out of your mouth and see things for what they are. None of those guys went on a 1 td and 6 int slump in any of their games. 1td and 6 ints in a four game stretch is Sanchez like. Just because I don't think Eli is an elite QB doesn't mean that I think he is great QB and a future hall of fame player. He is my guy, but I am not blind to his poor play at times.

Bumping this post because I OWNED Gentlegiant with it

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 04:50 PM
Eli has legendary moments but he's not like a Marino, Peyton, or Brady that you can insert almost any gametape and expect to be wowed by fireworks if that makes sense. Rodgers and Brees are there as well but they need more championships.Define "legendary moments" You mean throwing 6 touchdowns a game? or..

sharick88
11-28-2012, 04:52 PM
wow.... 117 pages

I think this thread has Legend of Seawright potential

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 04:55 PM
Define "legendary moments" You mean throwing 6 touchdowns a game? or..

Tyree Helmet Catch, Manningham pass to the sidelines, somehow not falling into two pieces against the 49ers pass rush...things like that. As of now, he won't be forgotten in NFL lore though people will say "Yeah, he had those moments but he was too inconsistent on a game to game basis".

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 04:56 PM
Tyree Helmet Catch, Manningham pass to the sidelines, somehow not falling into two pieces against the 49ers pass rush...things like that. As of now, he won't be forgotten in NFL lore though people will say "Yeah, he had those moments but he was too inconsistent on a game to game basis".But what does that have to do with him being a good quarter back? Not every quarter back is going to have legendary moments in every game. Peyton certainly didn't look legendary against the chiefs this past week, or Aaron Rodgers against us, or Drew Brees against San Fran.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 04:59 PM
But what does that have to do with him being a good quarter back? Not every quarter back is going to have legendary moments in every game. Peyton certainly didn't look legendary against the chiefs this past week.

I'm not saying that legendary moments are always going to happen but there's something about the other QBs when they get in the zone and they seem to hit that stride on a more frequent basis than Eli. They become almost machine like as if they aren't even from this planet. They'll say Eli was clutch which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of but he won't be viewed as extraordinary on an NFL level like Peyton or Brady.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm not saying that legendary moments are always going to happen but there's something about the other QBs when they get in the zone and they seem to hit that stride on a more frequent basis than Eli. They become almost machine like as if they aren't even from this planet. They'll say Eli was clutch which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of but he won't be viewed as extraordinary on an NFL level like Peyton or Brady.So is being as you say "machine like" better than being clutch in your opinion?

I'm not knocking your opinion, I just want to know.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm not saying that legendary moments are always going to happen but there's something about the other QBs when they get in the zone and they seem to hit that stride on a more frequent basis than Eli. They become almost machine like as if they aren't even from this planet. They'll say Eli was clutch which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of but he won't be viewed as extraordinary on an NFL level like Peyton or Brady.They will see his two SB wins. Which came against Brady no less, who's to say people won't assume he was "extraordinary"?

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 05:09 PM
So is being as you say "machine like" better than being clutch in your opinion?

I'm not knocking your opinion, I just want to know.

On a minute-to-minute basis and in the regular season, I'd say it is. For the playoffs, there isn't any other QB I'd want on my team over Eli. He played on that machine like level last year starting with the Falcons. The way I see it, and people can certainly disagree, is that when people talk about top notch QB play, Eli won't be one of the first names mentioned. It just happens to come with the era he is apart of and as a little brother myself, I can feel for Eli being an awesome QB who is overshadowed by his even better bigger brother lol.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 05:11 PM
They will see his two SB wins. Which came against Brady no less, who's to say people won't assume he was "extraordinary"?

Outside of the 2007 playoffs, 2011 season + playoffs, and a few games (like this year's TB game), there's not much memorable moments on a regular basis for the average NFL fan. He will obviously go down in Giants lore as extraordinary but I'm not sure that will be the case for everyone else.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 05:18 PM
Tyree Helmet Catch, Manningham pass to the sidelines, somehow not falling into two pieces against the 49ers pass rush...things like that. As of now, he won't be forgotten in NFL lore though people will say "Yeah, he had those moments but he was too inconsistent on a game to game basis".

I think you have that reversed. People will remember him *now* like that because they can see him play. 20 years from now he'll be lauded as one of the best QBs of his generation.

Hindsight always comes with rose-colored glasses. Just ask Simms ;)

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 05:22 PM
Outside of the 2007 playoffs, 2011 season + playoffs, and a few games (like this year's TB game), there's not much memorable moments on a regular basis for the average NFL fan. He will obviously go down in Giants lore as extraordinary but I'm not sure that will be the case for everyone else.That's your opinion though. If the average fan sees 2 SB wins, a few over 4000 yd seasons, most TD's thrown in the 4th quarter etc...These a just examples that he wasn't a slouch in the reg season.

Also most playoff road wins. None of your other flashy QB's can attest to that. And as I said before, to beat what some consider the greatest to play the game in Brady. Twice. On the biggest stage.



If the average fan in the future sees that, they'd be hard pressed to say Eli wasn't one the of best QB's to play the position.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 05:31 PM
I think you have that reversed. People will remember him *now* like that because they can see him play. 20 years from now he'll be lauded as one of the best QBs of his generation.

Hindsight always comes with rose-colored glasses. Just ask Simms ;)

Depends on one's definition of best I suppose. Best as getting his team further to the Lombardi versus others? Best as in individual talent from a pure passing standpoint? Montana is a good example of the first definition I listed but I don't think you can put him in a discussion with the likes of Marino with the 2nd definition. If I'm sitting down with a young kid who wants to be a promising QB beyond HS, I show him Peyton tape or Marino tape.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 05:37 PM
That's your opinion though. If the average fan sees 2 SB wins, a few over 4000 yd seasons, most TD's thrown in the 4th quarter etc...These a just examples that he wasn't a slouch in the reg season.

Also most playoff road wins. None of your other flashy QB's can attest to that. And as I said before, to beat what some consider the greatest to play the game in Brady. Twice. On the biggest stage.



If the average fan in the future sees that, they'd be hard pressed to say Eli wasn't one the of best QB's to play the position.

You bring up some great points but you have to admit that 4000 yd seasons aren't as impressive as they used to be and the guys we are comparing Eli to now (Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc) easily achieve those feats. The TDs in the 4th quarter for the 2011 season is a great individual achievement but how do they compare to multiple regular season MVPs or what about Brees and Brady both breaking Marino's most yards in a single season record?

Road playoff wins is another great achievement but couldn't that be argued to be more of a team accomplishment and perhaps more of a sign of the success Coughlin has on the road in the playoffs?

Eli beating Brady is a tough one. Some people will see it that way but others see the two QBs just playing different defenses. Brady certainly put the Patriots in good enough spots to beat the Giants in both SBs but his defense couldn't hold. It's very debatable.

I'm with Harooni (lol) that Eli could use a regular season MVP to really cement his place in the HoF today. That's just me though.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 05:40 PM
Depends on one's definition of best I suppose. Best as getting his team further to the Lombardi versus others? Best as in individual talent from a pure passing standpoint? Montana is a good example of the first definition I listed but I don't think you can put him in a discussion with the likes of Marino with the 2nd definition. If I'm sitting down with a young kid who wants to be a promising QB beyond HS, I show him Peyton tape or Marino tape.

Both are credible sources of being "best" and have been up to now.

You have your stats guys (Marino, Peyton, etc ...), your "legendary moment" guys (Elway, Eli) and multiple ring guys (Bradshaw, Montana, Brady, etc ...).

If you look at it like that, you can actually make a strong case for Elway being the best QB in football history, since he's managed to be in all three groups.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 05:48 PM
I'll say this much in defense of Eli and that is the fact he is hurt in terms of perception by what I would call overrated defenses during the Giants championship runs. People (as in the general fan) think that the 2007 Giants D was some beast because of how they rattled Brady in the SB but always forget that the Pats D was actually superior or how the 2011 Giants D was ranked in the bottom 5 for pass D even though most people remember them yet again for their playoff success. With a franchise known for it's defense, Eli faces an uphill battle in this regard compared to the likes of Peyton or Brady.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 05:49 PM
You bring up some great points but you have to admit that 4000 yd seasons aren't as impressive as they used to be and the guys we are comparing Eli to now (Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc) easily achieve those feats. The TDs in the 4th quarter for the 2011 season is a great individual achievement but how do they compare to multiple regular season MVPs or what about Brees and Brady both breaking Marino's most yards in a single season record?

Road playoff wins is another great achievement but couldn't that be argued to be more of a team accomplishment and perhaps more of a sign of the success Coughlin has on the road in the playoffs?

Eli beating Brady is a tough one. Some people will see it that way but others see the two QBs just playing different defenses. Brady certainly put the Patriots in good enough spots to beat the Giants in both SBs but his defense couldn't hold. It's very debatable.

I'm with Harooni (lol) that Eli could use a regular season MVP to really cement his place in the HoF today. That's just me though.This isnt about the reg season stats because those guys win. Still they aren't even blowing him out of the water in that regard either. He was about 60 yards short of throwing for 5,000. Yeah, that happens all the time lol

If you want to argue that perhaps Eli's success is more philosophy then what about guys like Brees, or Rodgers? Goes both ways.

Yeah no crap he didn't play defense against Brady, but if Im looking at Eli's career and I see that he was able to accomplish beating the legendary Bilichick/Brady led team, stomping over AR's squad en route to said SB, then yeah, that is enough for me. You cant do that and not be of the best ever. Eli's legacy will speak for itself. All Fantasy Football aside...

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 05:50 PM
You bring up some great points but you have to admit that 4000 yd seasons aren't as impressive as they used to be and the guys we are comparing Eli to now (Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc) easily achieve those feats. The TDs in the 4th quarter for the 2011 season is a great individual achievement but how do they compare to multiple regular season MVPs or what about Brees and Brady both breaking Marino's most yards in a single season record?


Single season passing yards is more a testament to Marino then it is for Brees and Brady since they latter two only accomplished this once the receiver rules were in place. If we're being pundits about it. Records are definitely a highlight but again you run into the Montana vs. Marino debate.



Road playoff wins is another great achievement but couldn't that be argued to be more of a team accomplishment and perhaps more of a sign of the success Coughlin has on the road in the playoffs?


I agree ... road play off wins is a dubious distinction at best as it means you weren't good enough during the regular season to merit a home game. It's a fun talking point on an episode of "The Football Life" but I don't think stands up quite as strong as the more common stats do.



Eli beating Brady is a tough one. Some people will see it that way but others see the two QBs just playing different defenses. Brady certainly put the Patriots in good enough spots to beat the Giants in both SBs but his defense couldn't hold. It's very debatable.


This I think this is one of Eli's biggest plugs ... both SBs ended with the ball in Brady's hands. Additionally, the 2007 Patriots are widely considered one of the best NFL teams ever.



I'm with Harooni (lol) that Eli could use a regular season MVP to really cement his place in the HoF today. That's just me though.

I do prize league MVPs over Super Bowl MVPs, however there has never been a 2 time Super Bowl MVP who hasn't made the HoF (which is why I think Eli makes it if Martians kidnapped him today).

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 05:58 PM
I agree ... road play off wins is a dubious distinction at best as it means you weren't good enough during the regular season to merit a home game. It's a fun talking point on an episode of "The Football Life" but I don't think stands up quite as strong as the more common stats do.I dont consider it to be this great stat per se. but it does show tenacity in being able to go into a hostile environment in the playoffs, and come out victorious.

johnson
11-28-2012, 06:01 PM
I think we can all agree that this is much needed:

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/cage-gifs-monster.gif

Also, be on the lookout for harrycarson, he is not really Harry Carson. You have been warned.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 06:02 PM
I dont consider it to be this great stat per se. but it does show tenacity in being able to go into a hostile environment in the playoffs, and come out victorious.

I agree but I don't think that it would be the point the average football fan would make 20 years from now.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 06:07 PM
I agree but I don't think that it would be the point the average football fan would make 20 years from now.eh, who knows.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 06:08 PM
Eli's legacy will speak for itself. All Fantasy Football aside...

But will Eli's legacy compare to that of Peyton and Brady? There isn't a question on whether Eli will have a significant legacy but it's about if he will earn the right to be mentioned in the same sentence as those two when you look at the entire resume.

Even though he was close to 5k yards, he was outshadowed by the likes of Brees and Brady. Stafford hit it too but no one will care. Some will even see Rodgers tied with Eli since he didn't play the last game of the regular season. Not that I agree with it but Eli will always face an uphill and unfair battle in this conversation.


single season passing yards is more a testament to Marino then it is for Brees and Brady since they latter two only accomplished this once the receiver rules were in place.

True to a certain extent. 5,000 is now the new mark everyone is impressed with though I think playoff success should be weighted more in the potential 4 games you can play up to.


I agree ... road play off wins is a dubious distinction at best as it means you weren't good enough during the regular season to merit a home game.

I see it more like trying to give a QB pitcher or goalie like statistics when american football shouldn't be measured like that. It isn't fair to label that under an Eli achievement when there are 51 other players responsible for those victories, especially when you had a guy like Jacquian Williams who came up huge in the SF game to get the TO in overtime.


This I think this is one of Eli's biggest plugs ... both SBs ended with the ball in Brady's hands. Additionally, the 2007 Patriots are widely considered one of the best NFL teams ever.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Brady have under a minute in both SBs to get his time a TD? How often is that accomplished by an offense?


do prize league MVPs over Super Bowl MVPs, however there has never been a 2 time Super Bowl MVP who hasn't made the HoF (which is why I think Eli makes it if Martians kidnapped him today).

That first SB MVP is controversial to some. Considering that Patriots team was one of the best offenses in history, some feel that the Dline or Justin Tuck in particular should of been the recipient of the award. Plus, the QB in most occasions is given the game MVP. It will depend on the voter/fan.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 06:17 PM
But will Eli's legacy compare to that of Peyton and Brady? There isn't a question on whether Eli will have a significant legacy but it's about if he will earn the right to be mentioned in the same sentence as those two when you look at the entire resume.He has one more than SB his big bro. Peyton could have had two but will be remembered as choking it away. You can't debate that one. Threw it right to the defender for a death pick six...

And while Tom may be considered better, Eli still beat him in the big one multiple times. So yeah, he very well could be mentioned along with them. The regular season does not dictate how good of a quarterback you are, its the entire deal that does.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 06:23 PM
He has one more than SB his big bro. Peyton could have had two but will be remembered as choking it away. You can't debate that one. Threw it right to the defender for a death pick six...

And while Tom may be considered better, Eli still beat him in the big one multiple times. So yeah, he very well could be mentioned along with them. The regular season does not dictate how good of a quarterback you are, its the entire deal that does.Brady also looked extremely pedestrian against the Jets in the 2010 playoffs. You can make the case that his wins over Denver and Baltimore weren't impressive either.

I'm not sure why we get this perception that Brady, Brees, and Peyton are always good all the time. The regular season? yeah, but what about the playoffs? isn't that what matters the most? I guess it all depends on your perception.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 06:23 PM
Don't forget the original debate was whether Eli was "elite" or not ... I think all this talk kind of proves that he is.

Back to our tangent ... I'd think Eli would need one more SB win to cement his place in the best of the best conversation. Plus another couple of standout seasons comparable stat wise to 2011.

Note: Eli won the first SB MVP based on the throw to Tyree and considering it was the game winning drive and it was mostly pass driven, deserves the MVP. I don't think it was controversial at all (and I do agree that the dline and/or Tuck was just as deserving).

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 06:25 PM
He has one more than SB his big bro. Peyton could have had two but will be remembered as choking it away. You can't debate that one. Threw it right to the defender for a death pick six...

And while Tom may be considered better, Eli still beat him in the big one multiple times. So yeah, he very well could be mentioned along with them. The regular season does not dictate how good of a quarterback you are, its the entire deal that does.

I don't think one extra SB over Peyton really does enough to warrant having him in the discussion with Peyton on terms of individual talent and achievements. That to me shows that the Giants are a better franchise overall than the Colts were. It has been mentioned a few times in the past on how they focused too much on putting everything in Peyton's hands by focusing on drafting offensive weapons for him when the OL and D clearly needed to be boosted. Thankfully, our FO doesn't do that.

Again, I respectfully disagree on your view of Eli beating Tom. That isn't fair to guys like Wilfork on the Pats D or JPP on the Giants D when you make it out to be some 1-on-1 battle. The schemes and players they faced were completely different. I feel the same way when people say "Rivers beats Peyton most of the time". That's simply not how it works.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 06:26 PM
Don't forget the original debate was whether Eli was "elite" or not ... I think all this talk kind of proves that he is.

Back to our tangent ... I'd think Eli would need one more SB win to cement his place in the best of the best conversation. Plus another couple of standout seasons comparable stat wise to 2011.

Note: Eli won the first SB MVP based on the throw to Tyree and considering it was the game winning drive and it was mostly pass driven, deserves the MVP. I don't think it was controversial at all (and I do agree that the dline and/or Tuck was just as deserving).Eli needs another Super Bowl win to solidify a previous Super Bowl win which was to solidify his first Super Bowl win lol.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 06:27 PM
I don't think one extra SB over Peyton really does enough to warrant having him in the discussion with Peyton on terms of individual talent and achievements. That to me shows that the Giants are a better franchise overall than the Colts were. It has been mentioned a few times in the past on how they focused too much on putting everything in Peyton's hands by focusing on drafting offensive weapons for him when the OL and D clearly needed to be boosted. Thankfully, our FO doesn't do that.

Again, I respectfully disagree on your view of Eli beating Tom. That isn't fair to guys like Wilfork on the Pats D or JPP on the Giants D when you make it out to be some 1-on-1 battle. The schemes and players they faced were completely different. I feel the same way when people say "Rivers beats Peyton most of the time". That's simply not how it works.You can make the case that he outperformed Brady.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 06:27 PM
I don't think one extra SB over Peyton really does enough to warrant having him in the discussion with Peyton on terms of individual talent and achievements. That to me shows that the Giants are a better franchise overall than the Colts were. It has been mentioned a few times in the past on how they focused too much on putting everything in Peyton's hands by focusing on drafting offensive weapons for him when the OL and D clearly needed to be boosted. Thankfully, our FO doesn't do that.

Again, I respectfully disagree on your view of Eli beating Tom. That isn't fair to guys like Wilfork on the Pats D or JPP on the Giants D when you make it out to be some 1-on-1 battle. The schemes and players they faced were completely different. I feel the same way when people say "Rivers beats Peyton most of the time". That's simply not how it works.

It's not only having one more ring then his brother, but how he won it.

And you may disagree with Eli beating Brady, but that's how all of the pundits put it and eventually perception becomes reality.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 06:28 PM
Eli needs another Super Bowl win to solidify a previous Super Bowl win which was to solidify his first Super Bowl win lol.

I like to do cocaine so I can work harder so I can make more money so I can buy more cocaine ...

Broadway Blue
11-28-2012, 06:29 PM
The main thing is Eli beat Brady twice in the Super Bowl and I think that deserves recognition

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 06:31 PM
I like to do cocaine so I can work harder so I can make more money so I can buy more cocaine ...Hey me too

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 06:31 PM
And somehow we got on to Brady vs. Eli .... I think Brady's career eclipses Eli's pretty much in all aspects currently. If that was in question.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 06:32 PM
You can make the case that he outperformed Brady.

And most of the time when the Chargers and Colts played, Peyton was outperformed by Rivers. One could say Rivers beat him OR maybe that the Chargers D just had Peyton's number all those years? Look at Eli vs. the Redskins defense in recent years. I wouldn't really say Grossman outplayed Eli lol.


And you may disagree with Eli beating Brady, but that's how all of the pundits put it and eventually perception becomes reality.

Perhaps you are right. I see it as a disservice to all the other players myself but I'll learn to accept it in time.

Kruunch
11-28-2012, 06:33 PM
And most of the time when the Chargers and Colts played, Peyton was outperformed by Rivers. One could say Rivers beat him OR maybe that the Chargers D just had Peyton's number all those years? Look at Eli vs. the Redskins defense in recent years. I wouldn't really say Grossman outplayed Eli lol.



Perhaps you are right. I see it as a disservice to all the other players myself but I'll learn to accept it in time.

BTW I agree with you in that it wasn't Eli versus Brady or the whole Patriots team. Just going over talking points about a person's career and how they may be summed up.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 06:37 PM
BTW I agree with you in that it wasn't Eli versus Brady or the whole Patriots team. Just going over talking points about a person's career and how they may be summed up.

With the way QBs are being propped up more and more as the NFL evolves, you are probably right on that talking point. You could even argue that Brees is the beneficiary of some good Oline play over the years but pundits won't remember most of the big men in 20 years or so.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 06:38 PM
I don't think one extra SB over Peyton really does enough to warrant having him in the discussion with Peyton on terms of individual talent and achievements. That to me shows that the Giants are a better franchise overall than the Colts were. It has been mentioned a few times in the past on how they focused too much on putting everything in Peyton's hands by focusing on drafting offensive weapons for him when the OL and D clearly needed to be boosted. Thankfully, our FO doesn't do that.

Again, I respectfully disagree on your view of Eli beating Tom. That isn't fair to guys like Wilfork on the Pats D or JPP on the Giants D when you make it out to be some 1-on-1 battle. The schemes and players they faced were completely different. I feel the same way when people say "Rivers beats Peyton most of the time". That's simply not how it works.So when peyton accomplishes things they are by his own merit? but when Eli wins twice as many SB's as his brother its because the Giants are a better org? hmm..

You do know that Eli "beat tom" is just a quicker way of saying Eli beating bradys team, the Pats. Yeah they dont play against each other literally. But that's just how it will always be remembered as going down. Eli >Tom in the championship. like krunch said. that will be the perception.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 06:38 PM
With the way QBs are being propped up more and more as the NFL evolves, you are probably right on that talking point. You could even argue that Brees is the beneficiary of some good Oline play over the years but pundits won't remember most of the big men in 20 years or so.Drew Brees benefits from Sean Payton running up the score.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 06:45 PM
So when peyton accomplishes things they are by his own merit? but when Eli wins twice as many SB's as his brother its because the Giants are a better org? hmm..

You do know that Eli "beat tom" is just a quicker way of saying Eli beating bradys team, the Pats. Yeah they dont play against each other literally. But that's just how it will always be remembered as going down. Eli >Tom in the championship. like krunch said. that will be the perception.

It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.


Drew Brees benefits from Sean Payton running up the score.

I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 06:46 PM
It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.



I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.It's not a problem, but it pads his stats just a tad. Not saying he's not great, but yeah.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 06:47 PM
It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.Why not? The rest of the team is playing too I'd imagine? Also, Grossman lost :P

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 06:54 PM
It's not a problem, but it pads his stats just a tad. Not saying he's not great, but yeah.

True...true. You could argue Eli's statistics suffer because we love to run it in the red zone more than most teams. KG's system isn't exactly a great one if you plan to make a HoF based on stats lol.


Why not? The rest of the team is playing too I'd imagine? Also, Grossman lost :P

You can't be carried like Dilfer was for the Ravens to a regular season MVP award. Big Ben has two SB victories but how much can we really respect that first victory on an individual basis? It's not as cut and dry as Eli having more SBs over Peyton. One could also bring up the horrible playoff performances he had outside of the 2007 and 2011 seasons as well.

My point about Grossman was that playoff success can't be awarded to the QB all the time because you have guys like him who are only there to avoid huge mistakes. Not saying Eli is that guy but it's my way of saying we don't want to set a precedent of measuring QBs by victories.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 06:59 PM
What I have gathered is that when a guy like Peyton wins stuff, It's cuz he's so amazing. When Eli wins its because its the team. Not quite fair don't you think?

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 07:07 PM
What I have gathered is that when a guy like Peyton wins stuff, It's cuz he's so amazing. When Eli wins its because its the team. Not quite fair don't you think?

I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 07:11 PM
I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.I got the impression by you, whether it was intentional or not, by saying QB regular season accomplishments, mean more than a SB win, which is the team. So the rest of the team wasn't playing in the first scenario too then?

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 07:13 PM
I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.But people don't look at it that way, especially when it comes to Eli.

You can see evidence now.
Aaron Rodgers played poorly against us because his offensive line sucks. Maybe that is true.

But when we were losing games, it was ELI SUCKS OMG1!11 2010 ELI. Doesn't matter that our receivers were dropping everything. Doesn't matter that Ahmad was fumbling the ball, doesn't matter that our defense couldn't get any pressure and our secondary got beat on every play.
Don't get me wrong, Eli wasn't playing well, but people were acting like he was the sole reason we were losing games.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 07:20 PM
I got the impression by you, whether it was intentional or not, by saying QB regular season accomplishments, mean more than a SB win, which is the team. So the rest of the team wasn't playing in the first scenario too then?

Many average or even bad players have earned SB rings in NFL history. The same can't be said about the MVP award because it is based more on a player's individual talent and what he produced on the field in a 16 game stretch. Not every victory is because Eli carried the team and the same can be said about Peyton and Brady too. Sure, Peyton helped the Broncos beat the Chargers from a 24 point deficit but he also had help from Chris Harris getting two INTS against Rivers.

A SB is a big game but it is what it is. Another 60 minute period. How much does that weigh against the rest of the season? Was Eli's playoff run and SB performance enough to say he was the best QB that season even over MVP Aaron Rodgers?


But when we were losing games, it was ELI SUCKS OMG1!11 2010 ELI. Doesn't matter that our receivers were dropping everything. Doesn't matter that Ahmad was fumbling the ball, doesn't matter that our defense couldn't get any pressure and our secondary got beat on every play.
Don't get me wrong, Eli wasn't playing well, but people were acting like he was the sole reason we were losing games.

Live by the glory of the QB, die by the glory of the QB. 2010 Eli wasn't good at all but he obviously wasn't the sole reason for our troubles. You sort of tie into my point in that people focus too much on a few players when it comes to victories or losses when it is much more complex than that. David Diehl has two SB rings but there are a ton of OL I'd rather have.

Dline83
11-28-2012, 07:24 PM
It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.



I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.

This is where I run into a problem with your logic. How do you explain not crediting Eli's regular season last year with no running game and a poor defense during the most part of the regular season, he literally caried the team in a bunch of games. How about the degree of turnover at positions for Eli vs. Payton? Payton has had some amazing wr during his time in Indy. What about all of the road playoff wins for Eli, I mean the two times we went to the Super Bowl we had some rough roads there, even historic. Wouldn't you also say it would be hard to get a MVP award or make game to game accomplishments individually, why is it that Manning gets credit for those things as an individual but for the Super Bowls and playoffs it is all because of the team, Eli was the one throwing the ball in Green Bay the first playoff trip there, and what it was like 5 degrees, yet that gains no individual merits?

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 07:35 PM
Many average or even bad players have earned SB rings in NFL history. The same can't be said about the MVP award because it is based more on a player's individual talent and what he produced on the field in a 16 game stretch. Not every victory is because Eli carried the team and the same can be said about Peyton and Brady too. Sure, Peyton helped the Broncos beat the Chargers from a 24 point deficit but he also had help from Chris Harris getting two INTS against Rivers.

A SB is a big game but it is what it is. Another 60 minute period. How much does that weigh against the rest of the season? Was Eli's playoff run and SB performance enough to say he was the best QB that season even over MVP Aaron Rodgers?I don't know about you, but a SB means more to me than a pretty season complete with shiny stats. It isn't really just "another 60 game" its the Superbowl championship! What do you play the game for? To throw for X amount of TD's? No, the ultimate goal is the SB. And to say it means less in a QB's career because he doesn't always have the great reg stats, but "just wins the SB" is not true. Eli won those SB's because he helped bring the team there and played great. He didn't ride the coattails like some third string scrub. These facts are what will cement him as a legendary QB in NFL history.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 07:38 PM
This is where I run into a problem with your logic. How do you explain not crediting Eli's regular season last year with no running game and a poor defense during the most part of the regular season, he literally caried the team in a bunch of games. How about the degree of turnover at positions for Eli vs. Payton? Payton has had some amazing wr during his time in Indy. What about all of the road playoff wins for Eli, I mean the two times we went to the Super Bowl we had some rough roads there, even historic. Wouldn't you also say it would be hard to get a MVP award or make game to game accomplishments individually, why is it that Manning gets credit for those things as an individual but for the Super Bowls and playoffs it is all because of the team, Eli was the one throwing the ball in Green Bay the first playoff trip there, and what it was like 5 degrees, yet that gains no individual merits?My problem exactly.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 07:40 PM
This is where I run into a problem with your logic. How do you explain not crediting Eli's regular season last year with no running game and a poor defense during the most part of the regular season, he literally caried the team in a bunch of games. How about the degree of turnover at positions for Eli vs. Payton? Payton has had some amazing wr during his time in Indy. What about all of the road playoff wins for Eli, I mean the two times we went to the Super Bowl we had some rough roads there, even historic. Wouldn't you also say it would be hard to get a MVP award or make game to game accomplishments individually, why is it that Manning gets credit for those things as an individual but for the Super Bowls and playoffs it is all because of the team, Eli was the one throwing the ball in Green Bay the first playoff trip there, and what it was like 5 degrees, yet that gains no individual merits?

You won't find me criticizing most of his 2011 REGULAR season because the defense didn't really put him into too many good spots late in the game and having the worst OL in the league made things much worse as well. The playoffs are were I have an issue because it seems that people either forget or overlook how much of a team effort that run really was.

Defense allowed 0 points to Atlanta and we had 170+ yards on the ground. JaMarcus Russell would of been victorious on that day.

Defense did a good job against Rodgers in GB by keeping them out of reach majority of the game. Eli had a great game but it wasn't him carrying the Giants at all this round.

SF game was pretty damn memorable for Eli. Didn't he have 60 pass attempts without turning it over once? Definitely an elite performance.

SB against the Pats was a fine game as well. Manningham pass was the big moment but I think Tuck was once again outshined as he was the one responsible for forcing the intentional grounding against Brady and had another sack against him later on with more pressures.

Sort of ranted there but what it comes down to for me is...Does all of Eli's legendary moments outweigh the vast amount of years that Peyton has showed play-by-play consistency and complete ownage of defenses pre-snap?

Broadway Blue
11-28-2012, 07:48 PM
What I have gathered is that when a guy like Peyton wins stuff, It's cuz he's so amazing. When Eli wins its because its the team. Not quite fair don't you think?

I don't get it either...

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 07:50 PM
I don't know about you, but a SB means more to me than a pretty season complete with shiny stats. It isn't really just "another 60 game" its the Superbowl championship! What do you play the game for? To throw for X amount of TD's? No, the ultimate goal is the SB. And to say it means less in a QB's career because he doesn't always have the great reg stats, but "just wins the SB" is not true. Eli won those SB's because he helped bring the team there and played great. He didn't ride the coattails like some third string scrub. These facts are what will cement him as a legendary QB in NFL history.

A SB means more to me as a fan of a team as well but not nearly as much compared to you when we are solely talking about a player's individual talent like Eli. The problem I have is with people trying to prop up QBs based on achievements that are clearly awarded to teams. You don't see anyone arguing "Well Tuck has 2 SB championships so he is clearly better than Julius Peppers." Where is the logic in discussing the amount of victories a QB has found himself in when there are two whole units he barely has influence with in regards to the defense or special teams? It's not like basketball where Kobe can be involved in every play or baseball where a player can both bat good and play amazing outfield.

You want to tell me that Eli has an underrated throwing arm? That's fine

You want to mention that Eli was clutch for us in the 4th quarter with the 16 TDs? Ok!

But there is no way you can convince me that QBs should be measured by championship or playoff victories when so many of those games come down to which team plays the most balanced football in all 3 phases of the game. I simply disagree with how you are trying to include Eli in the Peyton and Brady circle.

Broadway Blue
11-28-2012, 07:54 PM
Phil Simms is not as bad as Joe Namath with his remarks on the Jets

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 08:31 PM
A SB means more to me as a fan of a team as well but not nearly as much compared to you when we are solely talking about a player's individual talent like Eli. The problem I have is with people trying to prop up QBs based on achievements that are clearly awarded to teams. You don't see anyone arguing "Well Tuck has 2 SB championships so he is clearly better than Julius Peppers." Where is the logic in discussing the amount of victories a QB has found himself in when there are two whole units he barely has influence with in regards to the defense or special teams? It's not like basketball where Kobe can be involved in every play or baseball where a player can both bat good and play amazing outfield.

You want to tell me that Eli has an underrated throwing arm? That's fine

You want to mention that Eli was clutch for us in the 4th quarter with the 16 TDs? Ok!

But there is no way you can convince me that QBs should be measured by championship or playoff victories when so many of those games come down to which team plays the most balanced football in all 3 phases of the game. I simply disagree with how you are trying to include Eli in the Peyton and Brady circle.You have your opinion about that. Obviously we could argue all week about this. I guess we'll have to see. In the end no one knows who will be remembered in the same class as Brady or Peyton. But his case by far is a legitimate one. And I have a feeling people will.

jomo
11-28-2012, 08:32 PM
This thread has amazing length given the fact that we have beaten this sucker to death over several/many/too many years. I am impressed with the energy.

ManningToJPP
11-28-2012, 08:34 PM
Can you all just shut this thread down. Like stop posting. Seriously, who cares. Simms is an idiot. Ok now what? ... "Oh, I know!....100 more pages, please!"


...whata joke

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 08:37 PM
Can you all just shut this thread down. Like stop posting. Seriously, who cares. Simms is an idiot. Ok now what? ... "Oh, I know!....100 more pages, please!"


...whata jokeI agree lol. but that wasn't what this past conversation was about. but yeah this thread should be dead and buried. it has served its purpose as bye week fodder and now has no reason for existing.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 08:38 PM
Can you all just shut this thread down. Like stop posting. Seriously, who cares. Simms is an idiot. Ok now what? ... "Oh, I know!....100 more pages, please!"


...whata jokeI love how you ask to shut the page down, and then cause more drama.

ManningToJPP
11-28-2012, 08:39 PM
I agree lol. but that wasn't what this past conversation was about. but yeah this thread should be dead and buried. it has served its purpose as bye week fodder and now has no reason for existing.


childs play

ManningToJPP
11-28-2012, 08:40 PM
I love how you ask to shut the page down, and then cause more drama.

I didnt take my usual dose of Dramidol this morning :)

NoHuddle10
11-28-2012, 08:43 PM
You have your opinion about that. Obviously we could argue all week about this. I guess we'll have to see. In the end no one knows who will be remembered in the same class as Brady or Peyton. But his case by far is a legitimate one. And I have a feeling people will.


A SB means more to me as a fan of a team as well but not nearly as much compared to you when we are solely talking about a player's individual talent like Eli. The problem I have is with people trying to prop up QBs based on achievements that are clearly awarded to teams. You don't see anyone arguing "Well Tuck has 2 SB championships so he is clearly better than Julius Peppers." Where is the logic in discussing the amount of victories a QB has found himself in when there are two whole units he barely has influence with in regards to the defense or special teams? It's not like basketball where Kobe can be involved in every play or baseball where a player can both bat good and play amazing outfield.

You want to tell me that Eli has an underrated throwing arm? That's fine

You want to mention that Eli was clutch for us in the 4th quarter with the 16 TDs? Ok!

But there is no way you can convince me that QBs should be measured by championship or playoff victories when so many of those games come down to which team plays the most balanced football in all 3 phases of the game. I simply disagree with how you are trying to include Eli in the Peyton and Brady circle.

This is the biggest joke of a thread ever. No way to convince you? Well let's give it one try.

QB's that have won the past 10 Super Bowls.

1. Eli Manning x2
2. Drew Brees x1
3. Aron Rodgers x1
4. Tom Brady x3
5. Peyton Manning x1
6. Ben Rothlisberger x2

If you think that is a coincidence you are kidding yourself. It is most difficult to perform at the QB position during the playoffs and in the biggest game of them all. The best QB's take their team all the way. All the second tier guys don't. Phillip Rivers, Michael Vick, Matt Ryan, Matt Shaub, etc.

Heck, look at the last 20 years. Steve Young, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, John Elway.... It is no fluke that it happens this way. The only times teams win a super bowl without a truly elite qb are when you have once in a lifetime defenses. Ala Jim McMahon (85 Bears d), Trent Dilfer (00 Ravens D), Brad Johnson (Tampas D that year was arguable a top 3 defense of all time), oh ya and Phil Simms (86 Giants D). All of these qbs were still solid as a truly poor qb can never win one. But if you dont have an all time great defense, you need an all time great qb in order to win it all.

That's just facts.....

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 08:43 PM
I didnt take my usual dose of Dramidol this morning :)It's a debate. I would understand the thread closing if we were cursing each other out and what not.

ManningToJPP
11-28-2012, 08:47 PM
This is the biggest joke of a thread ever. No way to convince you? Well let's give it one try.

QB's that have won the past 10 Super Bowls.

1. Eli Manning x2
2. Drew Brees x1
3. Aron Rodgers x1
4. Tom Brady x3
5. Peyton Manning x1
6. Ben Rothlisberger x2

If you think that is a coincidence you are kidding yourself. It is most difficult to perform at the QB position during the playoffs and in the biggest game of them all. The best QB's take their team all the way. All the second tier guys don't. Phillip Rivers, Michael Vick, Matt Ryan, Matt Shaub, etc.

Heck, look at the last 20 years. Steve Young, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, John Elway.... It is no fluke that it happens this way. The only times teams win a super bowl without a truly elite qb are when you have once in a lifetime defenses. Ala Jim McMahon (85 Bears d), Trent Dilfer (00 Ravens D), Brad Johnson (Tampas D that year was arguable a top 3 defense of all time), oh ya and Phil Simms (86 Giants D). All of these qbs were still solid as a truly poor qb can never win one. But if you dont have an all time great defense, you need an all time great qb in order to win it all.

That's just facts.....

My point exactly. Phil Simms is a total idiot. How are we not over this, understanding of this, and past this? LOL

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 08:48 PM
It's a debate. I would understand the thread closing if we were cursing each other out and what not.It should still be deleted. Most, if not all of it, has been Simms vs Eli. Which is dumb arguing about two Giants greats which have given us fans years of phenomenal championship seasons.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 08:50 PM
It should still be deleted. Most, if not all of it, has been Simms vs Eli. Which is dumb arguing about two Giants greats which have given us fans years of phenomenal championship seasons.It should be deleted because not everyone sees eye to eye?
What do you know! more than half of the threads should be deleted then.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 08:51 PM
This is the biggest joke of a thread ever. No way to convince you? Well let's give it one try.

QB's that have won the past 10 Super Bowls.

1. Eli Manning x2
2. Drew Brees x1
3. Aron Rodgers x1
4. Tom Brady x3
5. Peyton Manning x1
6. Ben Rothlisberger x2

If you think that is a coincidence you are kidding yourself. It is most difficult to perform at the QB position during the playoffs and in the biggest game of them all. The best QB's take their team all the way. All the second tier guys don't. Phillip Rivers, Michael Vick, Matt Ryan, Matt Shaub, etc.

Heck, look at the last 20 years. Steve Young, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, John Elway.... It is no fluke that it happens this way. The only times teams win a super bowl without a truly elite qb are when you have once in a lifetime defenses. Ala Jim McMahon (85 Bears d), Trent Dilfer (00 Ravens D), Brad Johnson (Tampas D that year was arguable a top 3 defense of all time), oh ya and Phil Simms (86 Giants D). All of these qbs were still solid as a truly poor qb can never win one. But if you dont have an all time great defense, you need an all time great qb in order to win it all.

That's just facts.....No, its all regular season stats and personal achievements that decide if you are truly a great QB.......

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 08:54 PM
It should be deleted because not everyone sees eye to eye?
What do you know! more than half of the threads should be deleted then.Missing the point there Rud. Why waste time comparing two Giants players when there is so much vitriol and exasperation involved? Seems like a waste of time and bandwidth ;)

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 08:56 PM
Missing the point there Rud. Why waste time comparing two Giants players when there is so much vitriol and exasperation involved? Seems like a waste of time and bandwidth ;)Simple, don't waste your time reading it :D

I don't agree with Simms but it's interesting to read others opinions..sometimes.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 08:57 PM
Simple, don't waste your time reading it :DDon't tell me what to do. :P

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 08:57 PM
Don't tell me what to do. :PJust did.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 08:58 PM
Just did.Don't care.

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 09:01 PM
Don't care.This is getting off topic..

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 09:02 PM
You have your opinion about that. Obviously we could argue all week about this. I guess we'll have to see. In the end no one knows who will be remembered in the same class as Brady or Peyton. But his case by far is a legitimate one. And I have a feeling people will.

Fair enough. I agree his case is legitimate to be mentioned with the greats but when you watch most of Eli's tape and compare it side-by-side to Peyton, Brady, or even Brees, it just feels "dirty" to sit there with a straight face as if Eli is on the same level as these guys individually. I respect your opinion though.


It is most difficult to perform at the QB position during the playoffs and in the biggest game of them all. The best QB's take their team all the way.

I'd actually agree with you until the new rules were released that hurt DBs with an increase in PIs and the "hitting a defenseless receiver" nonsense that can occur for perfectly legal hits. Not turn your head in time while covering a guy on a deep play? Possible 20+ yards allowed on an innocent mistake. QBs might be the most pressured but I'd say CB has become the new hardest position in the league and I think that's true even in the playoffs.


Heck, look at the last 20 years. Steve Young, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Joe Montana, John Elway.... It is no fluke that it happens this way.

Not even all of those guys you listed were "extraordinary" QBs like I'd consider Peyton or Brady. Favre choked away too many football games with crucial interceptions near the end of regulation. Aikman wasn't bad at all but very fortunate to have that Oline, the all time leader in rushing yards, and Michael Irvin on the same team. Call me nuts but I think Eli is better than those two for sure and if Eli gets another SB victory, debate will rage if he is better than Montana (which is actually arguable now since Eli doesn't benefit from a WC Offense.)

To clarify, I put more weight on play-by-play basis and consistency which Eli doesn't measure up to Peyton or Brady in that regard. He has had some pretty legendary moments but some equally WTF plays as well lol.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 09:04 PM
To clarify, I put more weight on play-by-play basis and consistency which Eli doesn't measure up to Peyton or Brady in that regard. He has had some pretty legendary moments but some equally WTF plays as well lol.Peyton and Brady have had many as well....

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 09:04 PM
No, its all regular season stats and personal achievements that decide if you are truly a great QB.......

Yes that is clearly all I have been saying lol. I appreciate the twisting of words.


Peyton and Brady have had many as well....

Not even on the same average does that happen. Show me where those two throw left handed lob interceptions or slide and fumble the ball without being touched lol.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 09:05 PM
This is getting off topic..haha if you think about it, 99% of this thread has been off topic. Don't see why it should change now ;)

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 09:10 PM
Yes that is clearly all I have been saying lol. I appreciate the twisting of words.

eh its basically what you are saying


Not even on the same average does that happen. Show me where those two throw left handed lob interceptions or slide and fumble the ball without being touched lol.Oh so only those count as WTF moment? Sounds pretty biased.

TheEnigma
11-28-2012, 09:17 PM
eh its basically what you are saying

Oh so only those count as WTF moment? Sounds pretty biased.

It's not what I'm saying. I implore you to go back and read a few of my last posts. I mentioned a few times about the play-by-play consistency of Eli compared to the other guys. That has nothing to do with MVPs or has more TDs or yards.

And you're not really building a fine case of Peyton and Brady's WTF moments when you just say "yeah they do it too". Give me some examples of stuff they've done that are as hilariously bad as some of the stuff Eli has done. I don't think you can call bias on me when you're the one rocking an Eli avatar and always arguing the Pro Eli standpoint on the Giants forum. Let's be fair here man.

Rusty192
11-28-2012, 09:34 PM
It's not what I'm saying. I implore you to go back and read a few of my last posts. I mentioned a few times about the play-by-play consistency of Eli compared to the other guys. That has nothing to do with MVPs or has more TDs or yards.

And you're not really building a fine case of Peyton and Brady's WTF moments when you just say "yeah they do it too". Give me some examples of stuff they've done that are as hilariously bad as some of the stuff Eli has done. I don't think you can call bias on me when you're the one rocking an Eli avatar and always arguing the Pro Eli standpoint on the Giants forum. Let's be fair here man.At least im not rocking a jimmy graham avi.... Saints fan!!
lol like that matters.

Yeah Im a fan of Eli, Im a fan of the Giants, so obviously I'm a fan of his as well. I don't go jumping into every Eli thread either, I've had many different avatars if you are trying to insinuate something. I'm not gonna pretend Im some unbiased Giants fan, because guess what? they don't exist. If hes playing like garbage, I'll say he is. like with any of our players.



I think im figuring it out now...so because he throws a left handed pick and fumbles the ball after falling on the ground, those kinds of plays are a big reason why he should be kept out of the league of the other QB's because they have never had their share of blunders or stupid mistakes? We watch the Giants, so of course we're gonna see every dumb play in gross detail.

It sounds way to like a, well I called it 'biased' 'specific' is probably a better word, set of circumstances..

Roosevelt
11-28-2012, 11:59 PM
To take a quote from Namath...

"I can't wait for tomorrow because I get better looking every day!!"

I could be dreaming, though...because I do have the same BD as MLKing.

That makes 3 of us.

Roosevelt
11-29-2012, 12:21 AM
The reason I put Eli ahead of Peyton, Rodgers and Brees ...

1) Peyton - Great regular season QB ... tries to shoulder too much, especially during the post season. And Eli has more rings in a shorter time span. Peyton definitely gets the nod towards stats but loses to Eli on clutch performances.

2) Rodgers - Hasn't done enough yet to warrant being included (although he is well on his way). But if you're going to put him in the mix, Eli definitely has outdone him resume wise.

3) Brees - Eli edges Brees on clutch performances as well as rings. Brees beats Eli on stats. 2 > 1. Again, if you compare the two as of today. Also Brees has had a MUCH better cast to work with (imo).


You can't be serious.

Put those 3 on this team and we don't need 4th quarter comebacks.

Rudyy
11-29-2012, 12:47 AM
You can't be serious.

Put those 3 on this team and we don't need 4th quarter comebacks.Honestly, most of those 4th quarter comebacks came from our defense giving up huge chunks of yards and touchdowns.

ny06
11-29-2012, 12:54 AM
This Thread.

http://i45.tinypic.com/53th6h.jpg