PDA

View Full Version : Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 [6]

Rudyy
11-28-2012, 11:56 PM
This Thread.

http://i45.tinypic.com/53th6h.jpglol

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 07:53 AM
A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha),

This is why two SB appearances is such a big deal (especially 2 SB wins and even more especially 2 SB MVPs). It's an easy mark to differentiate the Mark Rypiens and Brad Johnsons of the world versus the Eli Mannings and Brett Favres. Not the only mark, but probably the easiest one (which is why SB rings are brought up so often).

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 08:02 AM
You can't be serious.

Put those 3 on this team and we don't need 4th quarter comebacks.

So untrue.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 08:21 AM
Is Eli as good as Joe Montana? No.... but at this stage..... I would take him over Big Ben, Rivers, Schuab, Ryan, Vick, Romo, RGIII, Luck, ect. In fact, the only QBs that are playing (or have played) in the same era as Eli that I would "consider" taking over him are Peyton, Brady, Favre, and maybe Brees. Even then I would have to give some serious thought about taking Brady & Favre; Eli has beat those guys when it counted multiple times.

To sum it up, Montana is the best to play the position to date.... in my humble opinion. Guys like Marino were good quality QBs, but the fact they never won a SB lumps them into a different category of good players but for whatever reason did not produce a championship.

Just to add one last wrinke.... durability. Of the above mentioned QBs, besides Favre, who has been the most durable? (just doing my part to keep this thread going through the end of the year)

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 08:35 AM
Is Eli as good as Joe Montana? No.... but at this stage..... I would take him over Big Ben, Rivers, Schuab, Ryan, Vick, Romo, RGIII, Luck, ect. In fact, the only QBs that are playing (or have played) in the same era as Eli that I would "consider" taking over him are Peyton, Brady, Favre, and maybe Brees. Even then I would have to give some serious thought about taking Brady & Favre; Eli has beat those guys when it counted multiple times.

To sum it up, Montana is the best to play the position to date.... in my humble opinion. Guys like Marino were good quality QBs, but the fact they never won a SB lumps them into a different category of good players but for whatever reason did not produce a championship.

Just to add one last wrinke.... durability. Of the above mentioned QBs, besides Favre, who has been the most durable? (just doing my part to keep this thread going through the end of the year)

No way I take Favre over Eli.

Just to add fuel to the fire :D

stormblue
11-29-2012, 08:40 AM
how come Terry Bradshaw is never thrown in there with those guys.
with 4 rings and no losses ...and i'm not so sure his stats aren't online with Joe Cool.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 08:45 AM
how come Terry Bradshaw is never thrown in there with those guys.
with 4 rings and no losses ...and i'm not so sure his stats aren't online with Joe Cool.

Equal TDs to Int ratio (212/210), lifetime QB rating of 70.9, lifetime completion percentage of 51%, and less than 30k yards passing.

Compare that with Joe's record of twice the TDs to Ints (273/139), QBR of 92.3, 63.2% completions, and 40k yards passing and it's not even close.

Bradshaw is widely seen as a product of his team vs. his team being a product of him.

A slippery slope to be sure considering the conversations we've been having but the stats definitely support that.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 08:49 AM
how come Terry Bradshaw is never thrown in there with those guys.
with 4 rings and no losses ...and i'm not so sure his stats aren't online with Joe Cool.

Bradshaw is comedy relief..... : ) To be serious though, he was a great QB, the hardware don't lie. However, if I had to go back in time and pick any one QB to lead my team, I'm not even giving it a second thought, Montana would be my guy.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 08:49 AM
Can't we just enjoy watching our team play without this impulsive and foolish need to try to lump our very good, but flawed QB in with all time greats?

This is ridiculous. In the list of all time great QB's, Eli isn't even in any conversation. He's not in the top 30, probably not in the top 50. He's not even in the top 5 of QB's right now.
You guys drive me nuts. And that's why these silly arguments go on and on. Some of you posters try to make these absolutely ridiculous arguments about Eli that are pure fantasy.

You cling to these two playoff runs which were as much about our great defense during those runs than our QB, and use it to put Eli in some lofty catagory as if all his uneven play during the other 95% of his career never happened. I am very thankful for those runs. They gave me some of my greatest thrills as a Giants fan. Please spare me the "our QB is an all time great" nonsense.
Just enjoy our team. This is a very good era to be a Giants fan. We have an outstanding coach and a solid QB.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 08:51 AM
Can't we just enjoy watching our team play without this impulsive and foolish need to try to lump our very good, but flawed QB in with all time greats?

This is ridiculous. In the list of all time great QB's, Eli isn't even in any conversation. He's not in the top 30, probably not in the top 50. He's not even in the top 5 of QB's right now.
You guys drive me nuts. And that's why these silly arguments go on and on. Some of you posters try to make these absolutely ridiculous arguments about Eli that are pure fantasy.

You cling to these two playoff runs which were as much about our great defense during those runs than our QB, and use it to put Eli in some lofty catagory as if all his uneven play during the other 95% of his career never happened. I am very thankful for those runs. They gave me some of my greatest thrills as a Giants fan. Please spare me the "our QB is an all time great" nonsense.
Just enjoy our team. This is a very good era to be a Giants fan. We have an outstanding coach and a solid QB.

Can't you just accept the fact that you're the fan of a team with an elite QB?

Have another sip of the Kool-Aid ... you know you want to! :D

P.S. - Eli is DEFINITELY in the top 20 of all time QBs ... possibly top 10.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 08:54 AM
Can't we just enjoy watching our team play without this impulsive and foolish need to try to lump our very good, but flawed QB in with all time greats?

This is ridiculous. In the list of all time great QB's, Eli isn't even in any conversation. He's not in the top 30, probably not in the top 50. He's not even in the top 5 of QB's right now.
You guys drive me nuts. And that's why these silly arguments go on and on. Some of you posters try to make these absolutely ridiculous arguments about Eli that are pure fantasy.

You cling to these two playoff runs which were as much about our great defense during those runs than our QB, and use it to put Eli in some lofty catagory as if all his uneven play during the other 95% of his career never happened. I am very thankful for those runs. They gave me some of my greatest thrills as a Giants fan. Please spare me the "our QB is an all time great" nonsense.
Just enjoy our team. This is a very good era to be a Giants fan. We have an outstanding coach and a solid QB.

NOT EVEN IN THE TOP 50? Really? I dare you to name 50 QBs that are better than Eli.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 08:55 AM
I will say this, if we were talking about Big Ben, then I would agree, his defense won those championships.

Imgrate
11-29-2012, 08:56 AM
Can't you just accept the fact that you're the fan of a team with an elite QB?Have another sip of the Kool-Aid ... you know you want to! :DP.S. - Eli is DEFINITELY in the top 20 of all time QBs ... possibly top 10.Eli has been a borderline top ten active qb for the vast majority of his career and now he is possibly top ten of all time?!? Yea, that is a completely reasonable thought...

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 08:58 AM
Eli has been a borderline top ten active qb for the vast majority of his career and now he is possibly top ten of all time?!? Yea, that is a completely reasonable thought...

Name 10 better ... I defy you (keep it in the Super Bowl era).

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 08:59 AM
Eli has been a borderline top ten active qb for the vast majority of his career and now he is possibly top ten of all time?!? Yea, that is a completely reasonable thought...

Really? If picking of QBs playing today, name 10 that are better than Eli?

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:02 AM
Can't you just accept the fact that you're the fan of a team with an elite QB?

Have another sip of the Kool-Aid ... you know you want to! :D

P.S. - Eli is DEFINITELY in the top 20 of all time QBs ... possibly top 10.
KOOL-AID? Your putting Eli on a level with guys like Unitas, Montana and Marino and I'M drinking the Kool-Aid?

The guy is a very good QB. I like the fact that my team has a very good QB. But this nonsense about "all time greatness" is so twisted its not even worthy of discussion.
But here we are. Discussing it as if its not based on complete delusion. No one (outside a few nutty Eli cultists) think Eli has anything close to the standing some of you guys are giving him.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:06 AM
Name 10 better ... I defy you (keep it in the Super Bowl era).
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Dan Marino, John Elway, Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Brett Favre, Joe Namath, Johnny Unitas, Dan Fouts, Troy Aikman,

How many is that? That took me less than a minute.

GameTime
11-29-2012, 09:06 AM
Ok....20 years from now when the NFL network is doing their top 10 QBs from this era Eli will be one of them as will Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben...etc...
You guys are serioulsy nuts over this......wow...Fun to watch and read though .
You guys are the Real Housewives of the Giants Message Boards...
RHOGMB......lol

nygfanmaybe
11-29-2012, 09:15 AM
I can't read any more right now...got something beckoning me towards it. But...I will say this. It really irks me when people state their "opinion" as if it is "fact". I would venture to say, too, that it appears to me, and I can't be sure, but the people who are the biggest culprits come-off as people who have never really played the game and are more like Sheldon from BBT. They have much knowledge about the game from books or TV, but nothing compares to learning the game on the field...IMO.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:15 AM
Heck I'll man up ... here are my list of QBs that are even in a discussion with Eli (all time):

1) Joe Montana (my personal fave)
2) Johnny Unitas
3) Bart Starr
4) Tom Brady
5) John Elway
6) Brett Favre
7) Dan Marino
8) Steve Young (tough because he only had 8 years as a starter but his starting stats with SF were tremendous)
9) Peyton Manning
10) ELI MANNING BABY!

#10 ALL TIME OH YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Check it!

GMENAGAIN
11-29-2012, 09:17 AM
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Dan Marino, John Elway, Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Brett Favre, Joe Namath, Johnny Unitas, Dan Fouts, Troy Aikman,

How many is that? That took me less than a minute.

Joe Namath? lol C'mon man. What are you, Bobby Brady?

I also wouldn't put Favre, Tarkenton or Fouts ahead of Eli. To me, Namath and Favre are the two most overrated NFL players of all time.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:17 AM
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Dan Marino, John Elway, Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Brett Favre, Joe Namath, Johnny Unitas, Dan Fouts, Troy Aikman,

How many is that? That took me less than a minute.

Eli is better than Staubach, Tarkenton, Namath (what a joke that you'd put that hack anywhere on this list), Fouts and Aikman.

Either stats, moments, hardware or all three in some cases.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:20 AM
Joe Namath? lol C'mon man. What are you, Bobby Brady?

I also wouldn't put Favre, Tarkenton or Fouts ahead of Eli. To me, Namath and Favre are the two most overrated NFL players of all time.
Look..Eli is NOT great. He's very good.
There's nothing wrong with that. But he has too many ups and downs. Its just who he is. Most of us are fine with it. We know who he is.

Some delusional posters just won't accept it.

GMENAGAIN
11-29-2012, 09:23 AM
Look..Eli is NOT great. He's very good.
There's nothing wrong with that. But he has too many ups and downs. Its just who he is. Most of us are fine with it. We know who he is.

Some delusional posters just won't accept it.

I usually stay out of these debates because I wouldn't want any QB for our team other than Eli, so what's the point of arguing whether or not he is "great" or "very good"?

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:24 AM
Eli is better than Staubach, Tarkenton, Namath (what a joke that you'd put that hack anywhere on this list), Fouts and Aikman.

Either stats, moments, hardware or all three in some cases.
Roger Staubach is a top 5 all time QB. You want to talk about clutch.

Now I know you're all nuts.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:25 AM
I usually stay out of these debates because I wouldn't want any QB for our team other than Eli, so what's the point of arguing whether or not he is "great" or "very good"?
Because some of these guys want to put him in the stratosphere and that's just nuts.
I will challenge nutty behavior.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 09:29 AM
Because some of these guys want to put him in the stratosphere and that's just nuts.
I will challenge nutty behavior.

You just cant give the guy a compliment without adding an insult.... it's funny really. With that being said, I would certainly Eli over Ben, would you not agree?

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 09:31 AM
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Bart Starr, Roger Staubach, Dan Marino, John Elway, Steve Young, Fran Tarkenton, Brett Favre, Joe Namath, Johnny Unitas, Dan Fouts, Troy Aikman,

How many is that? That took me less than a minute.

Thats a long way from 30 or 50.... and even some of the names on your list are highly debatable.

GameTime
11-29-2012, 09:33 AM
Ok....20 years from now when the NFL network is doing their top 10 QBs from this era Eli will be one of them as will Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben...etc...
You guys are serioulsy nuts over this......wow...Fun to watch and read though .
You guys are the Real Housewives of the Giants Message Boards...
RHOGMB......lol
shameless bump because I think its funny....:)

Imgrate
11-29-2012, 09:34 AM
Name 10 better ... I defy you (keep it in the Super Bowl era).4 active: brees Rodgers Peyton BradyThen there's Montana elway Marino unitas Starr staubach. pretty easy.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Thats a long way from 30 or 50.... and even some of the names on your list are highly debatable.
He asked for 10.
You can debate as to weather some of these guys are top 10, but there's no debate that they were better than Eli.
Some of you guys and your Eli worship. Its just silliness.

I suppose we should just let you guys have your fantasy and be done with you. I guess I need to show more restraint. Its like telling kids there's no Santa Claus.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:37 AM
shameless bump because I think its funny....:)
You're a good poster but it wasn't really that funny.
But as long as you think so........that's what's important.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 09:37 AM
He asked for 10.
You can debate as to weather some of these guys are top 10, but there's no debate that they were better than Eli.
Some of you guys and your Eli worship. Its just silliness.

I suppose we should just let you guys have your fantasy and be done with you. I guess I need to show more restraint. Its like telling kids there's no Santa Claus.

I was responding to your assertion that 30 and probably even 50 were better than Eli.....

Imgrate
11-29-2012, 09:38 AM
Really? If picking of QBs playing today, name 10 that are better than Eli?There aren't ten now, but before last year there were a bunch. He could easily be placed anywhere from 5 to 10th after 2010 and the same could be said about him for every year before that. Thus, me saying the majority of his career

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:39 AM
I was responding to your assertion that 30 and probably even 50 were better than Eli.....

I feel badly..........To all my Eli Cultist friends.......

Santa Claus is real!!!!!!

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 09:40 AM
There aren't ten now, but before last year there were a bunch. He could easily be placed anywhere from 5 to 10th after 2010 and the same could be said about him for every year before that. Thus, me saying the majority of his career

"Thus" .... now there's a word that does not get used very much : )

GameTime
11-29-2012, 09:40 AM
You're a good poster but it wasn't really that funny.
But as long as you think so........that's what's important.
oh come on.....if this isnt a soap opera of QB discussion then I dont what it is.....
You guys are knowledgable and all but its funny to see how the back and forth goes to try to convince one another on who is right or who's points are more valid. Not only now but 20 years from now or for that matter 30 years ago...:)

Imgrate
11-29-2012, 09:40 AM
Until it is a foregone conclusion that Eli is a HoF qb (And no it is not a 100% guaranteed thing yet for him like it is for Brady or Peyton) then I cannot rank Eli as being better than any qb in the hall.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 09:40 AM
I feel badly..........To all my Eli Cultist friends.......

Santa Claus is real!!!!!!

Well, to be technical, there really was a St. Nicholas..... just saying

GameTime
11-29-2012, 09:41 AM
I feel badly..........To all my Eli Cultist friends.......

Santa Claus is real!!!!!!

Santa is Elite for sure.....

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:41 AM
"Thus" .... now there's a word that does not get used very much : )
There may not be 10 that are, in general, "better than Eli".
But there are more than 10 that are having better years than Eli.

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 09:42 AM
This whole thread reminds me of the movie "Coming To America"..... where the old men sat around in the barber shop debating famous sports figures... lol

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:43 AM
oh come on.....if this isnt a soap opera of QB discussion then I dont what it is.....
You guys are knowledgable and all but its funny to see how the back and forth goes to try to convince one another on who is right or who's points are more valid. Not only now but 20 years from now or for that matter 30 years ago...:)
Sorry...that was mean of me. I want you to be happy.
So let me just say.......








HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rebelfan1966
11-29-2012, 09:43 AM
Santa is Elite for sure.....

My kids sure think so ; )

GameTime
11-29-2012, 09:44 AM
This whole thread reminds me of the movie "Coming To America"..... where the old men sat around in the barber shop debating famous sports figures... lol

Jou Loius was the best fighter in the world.
Ehhh....you dont know from nothin. Rocky Marciano was the best.
Rocky Marciano?..Rocky Marciano?....Haa...

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:44 AM
This whole thread reminds me of the movie "Coming To America"..... where the old men sat around in the barber shop debating famous sports figures... lol
Good analogy.

Only in this debate, someone is saying that Jerry Quarry is in the discussion.

GameTime
11-29-2012, 09:44 AM
Sorry...that was mean of me. I want you to be happy.
So let me just say.......








HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

see know was that so hard to do...
thanks....:cool:

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:45 AM
see know was that so hard to do...
thanks....:cool:
Not at all because I love my fellow man.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:46 AM
4 active: brees Rodgers Peyton BradyThen there's Montana elway Marino unitas Starr staubach. pretty easy.

Rodgers is not better than Eli. Neither is Staubach.

Just for the uninformed:

Staubach: 22k passing yards, 153/109 TD/Int, 57% completion, 83.4 QBR, 1 SB MVP, 4 SB appearances, 2 SB Rings (on a HoF team I might add)

Eli: 30k passing yards, 200/140 TD/Int, 58.6% completion, 83.3 QBR, 2 SB MVP, 2 SB appearances, 2 SB rings

And even at conservative estimates, Eli will end his career with 50k passing, 300+ TDs and 60%+ completion percentage.

Nuff said.

giantsfan420
11-29-2012, 09:46 AM
did anyone see skip and rob parker debate when simms said this? i didnt know but apparently skip and phil are good friends. skips a big fan of simms on and off the field. i was shocked when skip and rob parker of all people maintained of course eli is elite. a few bad games dont erase all that hes done and what his true level of play is. skip said that knowing simms as well as he does, that simms made this comment bc his ego was hurt knowing eli was about to pass him on the td list and that he is a better qb than simms. he said simms is ultra competitive and that it stings him a little knowing theres a better qb in giants history than him, and thats where his comment was coming from.
i couldnt believe it, the king of knee jerk responses was giving us insight into simms comment. especially couldnt believe that rob parker and skip were so adamant in declarng eli elite when they were some of his harshest critics. i suggest youtubing the clip, very interesting and accurate

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:46 AM
Good analogy.

Only in this debate, someone is saying that Jerry Quarry is in the discussion.

Yeah but we love you anyways MS :D

giantsfan420
11-29-2012, 09:48 AM
Rodgers is not better than Eli. Neither is Staubach.

Just for the uninformed:

Staubach: 22k passing yards, 153/109 TD/Int, 57% completion, 83.4 QBR, 1 SB MVP, 4 SB appearances, 2 SB Rings (on a HoF team I might add)

Eli: 30k passing yards, 200/140 TD/Int, 58.6% completion, 83.3 QBR, 2 SB MVP, 2 SB appearances, 2 SB rings

And even at conservative estimates, Eli will end his career with 50k passing, 300+ TDs and 60%+ completion percentage.

Nuff said.

i agree. eli is gonna go down as the greatest giants qb of all time and one of the all time greats. i love how so many of the sports writers who vote on the HoF have come out and said eli and tc are definite hall of famers...we are so lucky our franchise had simms, even luckier to get eli...can u imagine the level of play from the qb who might one day overtake eli the way eli overtook simms?

GameTime
11-29-2012, 09:49 AM
Not at all because I love my fellow man.
In all seriousness....

I love Eli. I hate his boneheadedness....especially when it extends over periods of time.
If Eli's career goes similar to what he is currently doing even with another SB win I dont think as a pure passer and overall QB talent that he will ever be a top 5 in the history of the game. Top 10 most likely.
But he will be the best Giants QB for sure. Thats not slighting Simms, Connerly, YA, at all. It just is what it is. The other guys may have been more athletically talented but Eli is a different type of QB he gets it done and the rings are there.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:50 AM
Rodgers is not better than Eli. Neither is Staubach.

Just for the uninformed:

Staubach: 22k passing yards, 153/109 TD/Int, 57% completion, 83.4 QBR, 1 SB MVP, 4 SB appearances, 2 SB Rings (on a HoF team I might add)

Eli: 30k passing yards, 200/140 TD/Int, 58.6% completion, 83.3 QBR, 2 SB MVP, 2 SB appearances, 2 SB rings

And even at conservative estimates, Eli will end his career with 50k passing, 300+ TDs and 60%+ completion percentage.

Nuff said.

The foolishness of this post is so obvious that I won't bother dealing with the speciousness of each point.

But I will say this. Staubach spent his first four years after college in the military. So in the same period guys like Eli were accumulating stats, he was serving our country.

So you're saying you hate America now?????

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:51 AM
Santa is Elite for sure.....

Careful ... MS will go all Easter Bunny on yo ***!

BuffyBlueII
11-29-2012, 09:52 AM
Bradshaw is comedy relief..... : ) To be serious though, he was a great QB, the hardware don't lie. However, if I had to go back in time and pick any one QB to lead my team, I'm not even giving it a second thought, Montana would be my guy.

Bart Starr haas to be thrown in this disscussion. The man was a great leader, tough and very clutch.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:53 AM
The foolishness of this post is so obvious that I won't bother dealing with the speciousness of each point.

But I will say this. Staubach spent his first four years after college in the military. So in the same period guys like Eli were accumulating stats, he was serving our country.

So you're saying you hate America now?????

Fine ... add 4 years of Staubach's best statistical year to his stats. Then add 4 of Eli's worst statistical year to his (we can agree that Eli will play 4 more years?) ... it's not even close.

And Staubach played on a better team.

Stop the self loathing and say it with me ... ELI PUT THE E-L-I IN ELITE!

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:54 AM
Bart Starr haas to be thrown in this disscussion. The man was a great leader, tough and very clutch.

I put Bart Starr as one of the Top 10 of all time.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:55 AM
The two best QB's in NFL history are playing right now. One in Foxborough, and the other in Denver.

Dline83
11-29-2012, 09:56 AM
KOOL-AID? Your putting Eli on a level with guys like Unitas, Montana and Marino and I'M drinking the Kool-Aid?

The guy is a very good QB. I like the fact that my team has a very good QB. But this nonsense about "all time greatness" is so twisted its not even worthy of discussion.
But here we are. Discussing it as if its not based on complete delusion. No one (outside a few nutty Eli cultists) think Eli has anything close to the standing some of you guys are giving him.

Just for arguments sake, here are the stat lines for the first 8 seasons of Eli vs. Montanna. Keep in mind Eli stated 8 games his rookie year to Montana's 1.

Eli Manning during his first 8 seasons:

185 TD, 129 INT, 57.6 completion percentage, 27,577 yards, playng in 121 games during that time period with 69 wins and 51 losses, 3 division titles, 2 Super Bowl wins

Montana during his first 8 seasons:

141 TD, 76 INT, 62.4 completion percentage, 17,184 yards, playing in 87 games during that time period with 57 wins and 30 losses, 4 division titles, 2 Super Bowl wins

I dont really see why you say that taking about all time greatness is twisted, these are your own words:


I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

I am not arguing that he is one of the great qb of all time, we would have to wait for his career to be over to fairly judge that, but I do firmly believe he is one of the greats of his time, which you stated you do not.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:56 AM
In all seriousness....

I love Eli. I hate his boneheadedness....especially when it extends over periods of time.
If Eli's career goes similar to what he is currently doing even with another SB win I dont think as a pure passer and overall QB talent that he will ever be a top 5 in the history of the game. Top 10 most likely.
But he will be the best Giants QB for sure. Thats not slighting Simms, Connerly, YA, at all. It just is what it is. The other guys may have been more athletically talented but Eli is a different type of QB he gets it done and the rings are there.

That's about the best summation I've heard of for Eli.

Well done sir.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 09:56 AM
Fine ... add 4 years of Staubach's best statistical year to his stats. Then add 4 of Eli's worst statistical year to his (we can agree that Eli will play 4 more years?) ... it's not even close.

And Staubach played on a better team.

Stop the self loathing and say it with me ... ELI PUT THE E-L-I IN ELITE!

My self loathing is not relevant to this discussion.

Comparing stats from different eras is the act of a desperate, pathetic mind.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:57 AM
The two best QB's in NFL history are playing right now. One in Foxborough, and the other in Denver.

And yet our guy has beaten one head to head on the biggest stage ... TWICE! ... and has more rings than the other.

I win!

GMENAGAIN
11-29-2012, 09:58 AM
I put Bart Starr as one of the Top 10 of all time.
People forget about Starr.

The funny thing about Favre is that he will probably end up being the 3rd best QB in Packers history.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 09:58 AM
My self loathing is not relevant to this discussion.

Comparing stats from different eras is the act of a desperate, pathetic mind.

So is comparing QBs of different eras but you invited it in.

Not my fault it bit you on the neck.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 10:00 AM
And yet our guy has beaten one head to head on the biggest stage ... TWICE! ... and has more rings than the other.

I win Oh Wait...Eli didn't play against Tom Brady on the field. Brady had to face the Giants D line. And Eli put up fewer points in 2 SB's than Phil did in 1.

I lose !

I feel your pain.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 10:01 AM
I dont really see why you day that taking about all time greatness is twisted, these are your own words:



I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

I am not arguing that he is one of the great qb of all time, we would have to wait for his career to be over to fairly judge that, but I do firmly believe he is one of the greats of his time, which you stated you do not.

Shhhhh ... it's never wise to raise the veil of reality on the mad man.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 10:02 AM
Shhhhh ... it's never wise to raise the veil of reality on the mad man.
I never said I was sane.
But my arguments are.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 10:03 AM
I entirely agree with you and feel ashamed at my appalling lack of faith in my own QB ... I will now go flog myself repeatedly.

/comfort

Imgrate
11-29-2012, 10:04 AM
Rodgers is not better than Eli. Neither is Staubach.Just for the uninformed:Staubach: 22k passing yards, 153/109 TD/Int, 57% completion, 83.4 QBR, 1 SB MVP, 4 SB appearances, 2 SB Rings (on a HoF team I might add)Eli: 30k passing yards, 200/140 TD/Int, 58.6% completion, 83.3 QBR, 2 SB MVP, 2 SB appearances, 2 SB ringsAnd even at conservative estimates, Eli will end his career with 50k passing, 300+ TDs and 60%+ completion percentage.Nuff said.Ok. Matt Ryan, Joe flacco, cam Newton, Andrew luck, rg3 are all on pace for better numbers than Eli. Oh and aaron Rodgers is leaps and bounds ahead of Eli

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 10:05 AM
/comfort
I never really knew what "flogging" was.

Is it something one can do in the privacy of his own home?

BuffyBlueII
11-29-2012, 10:05 AM
My self loathing is not relevant to this discussion.

Comparing stats from different eras is the act of a desperate, pathetic mind.

Some would say this about comparing QBs from this different eras.

Imgrate
11-29-2012, 10:05 AM
And yet our guy has beaten one head to head on the biggest stage ... TWICE! ... and has more rings than the other.I win!Qbs don't play head to head.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 10:06 AM
Ok. Matt Ryan, Joe flacco, cam Newton, Andrew luck, rg3 are all on pace for better numbers than Eli. Oh and aaron Rodgers is leaps and bounds ahead of Eli

The moon is made of cheese.

Hey look I can do it too!

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 10:07 AM
I never really knew what "flogging" was.

Is it something one can do in the privacy of his own home?

George Michael and Peewee Herman might dis ... nahhh too easy.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 10:10 AM
Qbs don't play head to head.

If you want to compare defenses that the aforementioned have played against in the post season the disparity is even greater.

Eli is The MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://bythatyoumean.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/eli-manning-drag-snl_1b.jpg

Dline83
11-29-2012, 10:13 AM
Just for arguments sake, here are the stat lines for the first 8 seasons of Eli vs. Montanna. Keep in mind Eli stated 8 games his rookie year to Montana's 1.

Eli Manning during his first 8 seasons:

185 TD, 129 INT, 57.6 completion percentage, 27,577 yards, playng in 121 games during that time period with 69 wins and 51 losses, 3 division titles, 2 Super Bowl wins

Montana during his first 8 seasons:

141 TD, 76 INT, 62.4 completion percentage, 17,184 yards, playing in 87 games during that time period with 57 wins and 30 losses, 4 division titles, 2 Super Bowl wins

I dont really see why you say that taking about all time greatness is twisted, these are your own words:


I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and *to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... *That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

I am not arguing that he is one of the great qb of all time, we would have to wait for his career to be over to fairly judge that, but I do firmly believe he is one of the greats of his time, which you stated you do not.


I never said I was sane.
But my arguments are.

In the end your opinion is your own and you are more than welcome to think/believe anything you wish, I just disagree with putting out statements with out supporting them. You can make lists of qb you think are better than Eli all you want and you might be right or wrong, but you never support your claims by using facts.

BuffyBlueII
11-29-2012, 10:14 AM
It is ridiculous that folks are even stating that Dan Fouts, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman and Joe Namath are better than Eli Manning.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 10:18 AM
It is ridiculous that folks are even stating that Dan Fouts, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman and Joe Namath are better than Eli Manning.

I know, right?!

extremeeli.com here I come!

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 10:39 AM
It is ridiculous that folks are even stating that Dan Fouts, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman and Joe Namath are better than Eli Manning.
Its these kinds of posts that give you Eli Cultists a bad name.

It's not a crime to delude yourself into believing that Eli Manning is some kind of all time great player. But when you say its silly to say that Roger Staubach (a top 5 all time QB) is better than Eli.....we have crossed the line into lunacy.

BuffyBlueII
11-29-2012, 10:47 AM
Its these kinds of posts that give you Eli Cultists a bad name.

It's not a crime to delude yourself into believing that Eli Manning is some kind of all time great player. But when you say its silly to say that Roger Staubach (a top 5 all time QB) is better than Eli.....we have crossed the line into lunacy.

Roger Staubach top 5? That is ridiculous.

nygfanmaybe
11-29-2012, 10:48 AM
.....we have crossed the line into lunacy.

Ya think? I think the definition of lunacy would be similar to insanity...which would be doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So...yes we are all guilty. We continuously try to point out how you are wrong, over and over, and you and a few of your buddies continuously try to point out how we are wrong. You be the judge.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 10:50 AM
Ya think? I think the definition of lunacy would be similar to insanity...which would be doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. So...yes we are all guilty. We continuously try to point out how you are wrong, over and over, and you and a few of your buddies continuously try to point out how we are wrong. You be the judge.
Yes but I'm right.

nygfanmaybe
11-29-2012, 10:51 AM
Yes but I'm right.

:) I truly am smiling right now...

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 10:51 AM
Roger Staubach top 5? That is ridiculous.
Well he was the best QB of his era.

nygfanmaybe
11-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Yes but I'm right.

Crazy...but right. No...wait...I'm right and I can prove it!!!

Dline83
11-29-2012, 10:55 AM
Yes but I'm right.

Then prove it! You never even made a comment about the comparison between Montana and Eli's first eight years, you discredit stats that do not prove your point, I mean the discussion started out as Simms vs Manning and then spiraled into all of this. The truth is that statistically Manning is on track to have an amazing and historic career, will reset ever passing record for the Giants, owns multiple NFL records, owns the best performance by a qb in the postseason (most passing yards in the playoffs), two Super Bowls, and two Super Bowl MVP, just how is that not good for one of the greatest of his time, not all time, but this current period of time in the NFL?

giantsfan420
11-29-2012, 10:58 AM
did anyone see skip and rob parker debate when simms said this? i didnt know but apparently skip and phil are good friends. skips a big fan of simms on and off the field. i was shocked when skip and rob parker of all people maintained of course eli is elite. a few bad games dont erase all that hes done and what his true level of play is. skip said that knowing simms as well as he does, that simms made this comment bc his ego was hurt knowing eli was about to pass him on the td list and that he is a better qb than simms. he said simms is ultra competitive and that it stings him a little knowing theres a better qb in giants history than him, and thats where his comment was coming from.
i couldnt believe it, the king of knee jerk responses was giving us insight into simms comment. especially couldnt believe that rob parker and skip were so adamant in declarng eli elite when they were some of his harshest critics. i suggest youtubing the clip, very interesting and accurate

bigjeep
11-29-2012, 11:12 AM
This could hit 200 pages!

chasjay
11-29-2012, 11:19 AM
I think that Brady and Peyton, by any measure, are the two best QB's in the league at the moment, and it doesn't bother me one whit for others to have other opinions. After those two, I think there are a few others who are more accurate passers than Eli, but nothing shows me that any others are demonstrably better all-around quarterbacks than Eli. Maybe if I were into fantasy football I'd be more swayed by this year's downturn in some of Eli's stats - but in viewing the total package of what a QB brings to the team, I think Phil was caught off base on this one.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 11:21 AM
Then prove it! You never even made a comment about the comparison between Montana and Eli's first eight years, you discredit stats that do not prove your point, I mean the discussion started out as Simms vs Manning and then spiraled into all of this. The truth is that statistically Manning is on track to have an amazing and historic career, will reset ever passing record for the Giants, owns multiple NFL records, owns the best performance by a qb in the postseason (most passing yards in the playoffs), two Super Bowls, and two Super Bowl MVP, just how is that not good for one of the greatest of his time, not all time, but this current period of time in the NFL?

Some people don't like to be weighed down with facts.

It's the new diet plan ;)

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 11:25 AM
Its these kinds of posts that give you Eli Cultists a bad name.

It's not a crime to delude yourself into believing that Eli Manning is some kind of all time great player. But when you say its silly to say that Roger Staubach (a top 5 all time QB) is better than Eli.....we have crossed the line into lunacy.

Closet Cowboys fan :p

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 11:42 AM
Closet Cowboys fan :p
All we Giants fans could do in the 70's was watch other QB's for other teams, and see who kills us the most. Staubach murdered us. On the rare occasion of our getting ahead he would easily bring his team back and beat us.
I don't think I ever saw a better 2 minute QB.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 11:47 AM
All we Giants fans could do in the 70's was watch other QB's for other teams, and see who kills us the most. Staubach murdered us. On the rare occasion of our getting ahead he would easily bring his team back and beat us.
I don't think I ever saw a better 2 minute QB.

Yeah I remember those days well.

And Eli is a better 2 minute QB then Staubach.

Staubach: 23 Game Winning drives, 15 4th Quarter Winning Drives
Eli: 25 Game Winning drives, 21 4th quarter winning drives.

Get with the program :p

nygfanmaybe
11-29-2012, 11:48 AM
Roger Staubach wears Eli Manning pajamas...

GameTime
11-29-2012, 11:55 AM
Yeah I remember those days well.

And Eli is a better 2 minute QB then Staubach.

Staubach: 23 Game Winning drives, 15 4th Quarter Winning Drives
Eli: 25 Game Winning drives, 21 4th quarter winning drives.

Get with the program :p
yeah but thats when QBs got hit all the time and offenses werent passing type offenses so if Staubach was around today he would be way better then Eli....

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 12:29 PM
Yeah I remember those days well.

And Eli is a better 2 minute QB then Staubach.

Staubach: 23 Game Winning drives, 15 4th Quarter Winning Drives
Eli: 25 Game Winning drives, 21 4th quarter winning drives.

Get with the program :p

out of how many opportunities? Dallas was rarely behind.
You must have never seen him play. And how many were in the last 2 minutes? Go look that up because that's all you have.

"Stats" seem to be your only argument for anything.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 12:50 PM
out of how many opportunities? Dallas was rarely behind.
You must have never seen him play. And how many were in the last 2 minutes? Go look that up because that's all you have.

"Stats" seem to be your only argument for anything.

I saw Staubach plenty ... you ain't the only person born before 1960 on these boards :p

And yes ... god forbid we use actuality versus faulty rose colored romanticism ... what on earth was I thinking?!

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 12:53 PM
I saw Staubach plenty ... you ain't the only person born before 1960 on these boards :p

And yes ... god forbid we use actuality versus faulty rose colored romanticism ... what on earth was I thinking?!
Well then what the hell are you talking about? You have to know how great he was. Because I've never met anyone who watched Roger Staubach play that didn't think he was an all time great.

BuffyBlueII
11-29-2012, 12:55 PM
And yes ... god forbid we use actuality versus faulty rose colored romanticism ... what on earth was I thinking?!

Exactly Kruunch. It is hillarious how folks bring up stats to bash Eli Manning and then dismiss stats when it supports him.

There is no way that Roger Staubach was better than Eli Manning. Heck, Jim Kelly was a better QB than Roger Staubach.

Eliscruzzz
11-29-2012, 01:03 PM
did anyone see skip and rob parker debate when simms said this? i didnt know but apparently skip and phil are good friends. skips a big fan of simms on and off the field. i was shocked when skip and rob parker of all people maintained of course eli is elite. a few bad games dont erase all that hes done and what his true level of play is. skip said that knowing simms as well as he does, that simms made this comment bc his ego was hurt knowing eli was about to pass him on the td list and that he is a better qb than simms. he said simms is ultra competitive and that it stings him a little knowing theres a better qb in giants history than him, and thats where his comment was coming from.
i couldnt believe it, the king of knee jerk responses was giving us insight into simms comment. especially couldnt believe that rob parker and skip were so adamant in declarng eli elite when they were some of his harshest critics. i suggest youtubing the clip, very interesting and accurateSimms didn't even congratulate him either which I thought was weird. Tory Holt was making fun of him the whole time on inside the NFL saying that Eli broke his record. Also Collinsworth was making fun of Phil saying that now he is the expert of elite qbs. My point is that you could see that Simms was pissed and this might hold true maybe Simms is just bitter. I know I would be bitter.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 01:14 PM
Exactly Kruunch. It is hillarious how folks bring up stats to bash Eli Manning and then dismiss stats when it supports him.

There is no way that Roger Staubach was better than Eli Manning. Heck, Jim Kelly was a better QB than Roger Staubach.

As I said earlier I am an army of 1.

Fortunately my opponents are unarmed.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 01:29 PM
Well then what the hell are you talking about? You have to know how great he was. Because I've never met anyone who watched Roger Staubach play that didn't think he was an all time great.

I never said Staubach wasn't great .. I just said Eli was better. He mirrored or surpassed all of Staubach's accomplishments with the exception of SB appearances and Staubach had a MUCH better team around him (on both sides of the ball).

I think what you're reacting to (and the basis of your whole disillusionment) is the fact that Staubach always *looked* heroic, even when he was very pedestrian (and he had plenty of those games in his career) and conversely, Eli looks like a jerky little kid who got his dog kicked.

But take that out and match up accomplishments ... and Eli is the superior QB in my mind. Most especially when you consider that he'll play for another 5-8 years (longevity being a big part of legacy).

GameTime
11-29-2012, 01:47 PM
whether you saw some of the past greats is one thing but in the last 30 years all you've seen of the past greats are high light reels. No bad stuff, slumps, picks, fumbles, etc. However you get to see that from the current QBs on a week to week basis. You see it all....the good the bad and the ugly.
Eli has his ungly moments and maybe more then some current great QBs but his results overall are what matters.....

yatitle
11-29-2012, 01:51 PM
All we Giants fans could do in the 70's was watch other QB's for other teams, and see who kills us the most. Staubach murdered us. On the rare occasion of our getting ahead he would easily bring his team back and beat us.
I don't think I ever saw a better 2 minute QB.

This a an example of perception being greater than reality. I remember Staubach and the Cowboys Killing the Giants for over a decade. Staubauch was the ALL Pro QB of a perennial playoff team and the Giants were in the middle of a deep dark abyss. So I think that adds to the perception of Staubach because you saw him against mostly inferior competition. Now you gotten to watch EVERY Eli snap and able to overanalyze every bit of minutae. The same way you view Simms through rose colored glasses because he was your favorite player. Look at least admit seeing Staubach and Simms play during your teens, 20's and 30s is different than seeing Eli in your 40s and 50s (I'm asuuming you are in your early 50's). You are going to have a different perception of players from back then because you were in a different part of your life.

Rusty192
11-29-2012, 01:54 PM
whether you saw some of the past greats is one thing but in the last 30 years all you've seen of the past greats are high light reels. No bad stuff, slumps, picks, fumbles, etc. However you get to see that from the current QBs on a week to week basis. You see it all....the good the bad and the ugly.
Eli has his ungly moments and maybe more then some current great QBs but his results overall are what matters.....Agreed 100% GT. Extremely well said.

GameTime
11-29-2012, 01:55 PM
This a an example of perception being greater than reality. I remember Staubach and the Cowboys Killing the Giants for over a decade. Staubauch was the ALL Pro QB of a perennial playoff team and the Giants were in the middle of a deep dark abyss. So I think that adds to the perception of Staubach because you saw him against mostly inferior competition. Now you gotten to watch EVERY Eli snap and able to overanalyze every bit of minutae. The same way you view Simms through rose colored glasses because he was your favorite player. Look at least admit seeing Staubach and Simms play during your teens, 20's and 30s is different than seeing Eli in your 40s and 50s (I'm asuuming you are in your early 50's). You are going to have a different perception of players from back then because you were in a different part of your life.
I said somehting very similar in my post right before yours. I think that has alot to do with it.......

GameTime
11-29-2012, 01:57 PM
Agreed 100% GT. Extremely well said.

thanks...I remeber thinking Staubach, Bradshaw, Tarkenton, etc were unbelievable because I was like 12 years old.....Not that they werent but it def skewed my perception.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 02:05 PM
thanks...I remeber thinking Staubach, Bradshaw, Tarkenton, etc were unbelievable because I was like 12 years old.....Not that they werent but it def skewed my perception.

We made every QB look like an all-time great in the 70s :(

Dline83
11-29-2012, 03:07 PM
As I said earlier I am an army of 1.

Fortunately my opponents are unarmed.

I believe you are the unarmed one, you consistently fail to prove your point. You have your opinion, I respect that, and I wouldn't try to prove that you should like Manning more than Simms, that is a preference, but when you try to convince others that Eli is an average to above average qb and you fail to address any facts brought up by your opposition, you really make a very weak argument.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 03:44 PM
I believe you are the unarmed one, you consistently fail to prove your point. You have your opinion, I respect that, and I wouldn't try to prove that you should like Manning more than Simms, that is a preference, but when you try to convince others that Eli is an average to above average qb and you fail to address any facts brought up by your opposition, you really make a very weak argument.
I didn't say he was average to above average.
I said he is a very good QB but not a great QB.
I think Eli has only 5 guys currently that are better. Thats not an indictment of Eli. Some of you guys just think it is.

And trust me....I'm packing!

AustinSkin
11-29-2012, 04:02 PM
Phil Sims is to the Giants as Joe Theisman is to the Redskins. I've met them both and they are egomaniacal turds. Phil was a keynote speaker at a conference I attended years ago. I was expecting an entertaining presentation. What I got was a long, boring stream-of-conciousness rambling about his life in the NFL. As soon as he was done, he was gone. No Q&A. Nada.

yatitle
11-29-2012, 04:11 PM
Phil Sims is to the Giants as Joe Theisman is to the Redskins. I've met them both and they are egomaniacal turds. Phil was a keynote speaker at a conference I attended years ago. I was expecting an entertaining presentation. What I got was a long, boring stream-of-conciousness rambling about his life in the NFL. As soon as he was done, he was gone. No Q&A. Nada.

Had the same experience with Simms. Went to a 25 year anniversary breakfast for the 1986 SB team. Everyone was allowed to get on line and get autographs and pictures. Simms was the only guy there who wouldn't let you take a photo of him. Found him to be a pompous ***.

Roosevelt
11-29-2012, 04:13 PM
Then prove it! You never even made a comment about the comparison between Montana and Eli's first eight years, you discredit stats that do not prove your point, I mean the discussion started out as Simms vs Manning and then spiraled into all of this. The truth is that statistically Manning is on track to have an amazing and historic career, will reset ever passing record for the Giants, owns multiple NFL records, owns the best performance by a qb in the postseason (most passing yards in the playoffs), two Super Bowls, and two Super Bowl MVP, just how is that not good for one of the greatest of his time, not all time, but this current period of time in the NFL?

Eli is everything you said but at the same time he's also someone who has trouble making short throws as evidenced by his terrible throws to Hyno and Ahmad last game. When I see that I don't think of greatest.

Contrast that with Phil. When Phil had time his passes were always on the money.

yatitle
11-29-2012, 04:18 PM
Eli is everything you said but at the same time he's also someone who has trouble making short throws as evidenced by his terrible throws to Hyno and Ahmad last game. When I see that I don't think of greatest.

Contrast that with Phil. When Phil had time his passes were always on the money.

Isn't that true of MOST QBS when they have time to throw. Make no mistake, Simms was tough as nails and would stay in the pocket until the bitter end to deliver the ball. But also held onto the ball too long many times and took way too many sacks in big spots similar to Big Ben.

Dline83
11-29-2012, 04:25 PM
I didn't say he was average to above average.
I said he is a very good QB but not a great QB.
I think Eli has only 5 guys currently that are better. Thats not an indictment of Eli. Some of you guys just think it is.

And trust me....I'm packing!


I'm an army of 1.
My mission......To keep the glorious memory of Phil Simms fresh in the minds of my fellow MB posters....and to make sure that we all be realistic about Eli.......... That he's a fine player but not one of the greats of this era.

Wouldn't you say calling him a very good qb and a fine player equal out to saying he is average to above average? What defines a great qb to you?

Roosevelt
11-29-2012, 04:26 PM
Isn't that true of MOST QBS when they have time to throw. Make no mistake, Simms was tough as nails and would stay in the pocket until the bitter end to deliver the ball. But also held onto the ball too long many times and took way too many sacks in big spots similar to Big Ben.

Yes, most qood QB's can deliver the ball when given time. But Eli for some reason has trouble with short range passes.

Look at the play where he had Hyno wide open in the endzone, and overthrew him by 3 feet, and then later when dumping it off to Ahmad, he throws a laser at him from 5 yards away. It has to be a mental thing with him a times. I've never seen a QB who can play so great then turn around and throw the ball so poorly.

Morehead State
11-29-2012, 04:29 PM
Wouldn't you say calling him a ver good qb and a fine player equal out to saying he is average to above average? What defines a great qb to you?

Probably the top 4. As i said yesterday, In my view there is Brady and Peyton, then a big drop off, then Rodgers and Brees, then another big drop off, then Ben and Eli with a few others like Ryan and maybe even Freeman nipping at their heels.

So great would be Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Brees. But that's just what rattles around in my head.

yatitle
11-29-2012, 04:32 PM
Probably the top 4. As i said yesterday, In my view there is Brady and Peyton, then a big drop off, then Rodgers and Brees, then another big drop off, then Ben and Eli with a few others like Ryan and maybe even Freeman nipping at their heels.

So great would be Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Brees. But that's just what rattles around in my head.

Can't we at least wait for Ryan to win a playoff game and Freeman to play in one, before they are mentioned in the class of Eli and Ben who have both WON 2 SBs? I think you are packing a watergun.

Dline83
11-29-2012, 04:34 PM
Eli is everything you said but at the same time he's also someone who has trouble making short throws as evidenced by his terrible throws to Hyno and Ahmad last game. When I see that I don't think of greatest.

Contrast that with Phil. When Phil had time his passes were always on the money.

That is just an incorrect statement. Would that be why he had a 55.4 average? You mention two short throws that didn't make it in the vicinity of the target, that is how you define greatness? Seems a little narrow sighted to me...

What about the -24 degree Packers game, the two Super Bowls, all the other playoff games, the yards in the playoffs, the consecutive starts, the 4th quarter comebacks and touchdowns? I would think leading your team to 24 4th quarter comebacks and having the most td in the 4th quarter would be a better measure of greatness than looking at any number of throws that didn't make it to the target. In addition, you fail to ask why those throws were off, pressure, throwing lanes, etc...

TheEnigma
11-29-2012, 04:36 PM
Can't we at least wait for Ryan to win a playoff game and Freeman to play in one, before they are mentioned in the class of Eli and Ben who have both WON 2 SBs? I think you are packing a watergun.

Not that I agree with MS on Ryan and Freeman (who is becoming the sidekick to Doug Martin now) being near Eli in the big picture but one does have to admit that winning championships is easier to do with the Giants and Steelers vs. the Falcons and Bucs. The Giants and Steelers build better teams through the draft and front superior coaching all across the board. There is a reason our staff is always brought up to be poached by other teams afterall.

Dline83
11-29-2012, 04:37 PM
Probably the top 4. As i said yesterday, In my view there is Brady and Peyton, then a big drop off, then Rodgers and Brees, then another big drop off, then Ben and Eli with a few others like Ryan and maybe even Freeman nipping at their heels.

So great would be Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Brees. But that's just what rattles around in my head.

But you said yourself that stats don't mean greatness so why is Rodgers ahead of Eli when Eli beat him in the playoffs and has more rings?

giantsfan420
11-29-2012, 04:43 PM
Not that I agree with MS on Ryan and Freeman (who is becoming the sidekick to Doug Martin now) being near Eli in the big picture but one does have to admit that winning championships is easier to do with the Giants and Steelers vs. the Falcons and Bucs. The Giants and Steelers build better teams through the draft and front superior coaching all across the board. There is a reason our staff is always brought up to be poached by other teams afterall.
the falcons have had very good-great rosters over the years as has the bucs, but I get ur point. I guess the next question in that line of reasoning would be "could eli/simms have won a SB(s) with those teams?"

Dline83
11-29-2012, 04:43 PM
Not that I agree with MS on Ryan and Freeman (who is becoming the sidekick to Doug Martin now) being near Eli in the big picture but one does have to admit that winning championships is easier to do with the Giants and Steelers vs. the Falcons and Bucs. The Giants and Steelers build better teams through the draft and front superior coaching all across the board. There is a reason our staff is always brought up to be poached by other teams afterall.

True, but it hasn't always been as good as it is currently. Also does that somehow diminish the accomplishments made by the Giants?

TheEnigma
11-29-2012, 04:50 PM
the falcons have had very good-great rosters over the years as has the bucs, but I get ur point. I guess the next question in that line of reasoning would be "could eli/simms have won a SB(s) with those teams?"

The Falcons I'd agree with but the Bucs were lacking pretty well until this year when they hit the draft pretty big with Martin and Barron along with Jackson and Carl Nicks as FAs. I'd say the issue though with these two clubs was coaching, especially last year when Mike Smith tried to convert two huge 4th downs against us with Matt Ryan QB sneaks when he should of took the FGs. Raheem Morris was fired for a reason and it's comparisons like this that should make us thankful that we have a HC like Coughlin who gets the entire team pumped up.

As for your scenario, I think Eli would of won at least 1 SB with either franchise but there's just some teams like the Chargers or Raiders that are such a mess that it would be near impossible to win a championship with.


True, but it haven't always been as good as it is currently. Also does that somehow diminish the accomplishments made by the Giants?

Less diminishes the Giants and more along the lines of saying that a lot of other teams having a slightly steeper hill to climb whether it's ineptitude in the FO and coaching staff or thin talent across the roster.

Toadofsteel
11-29-2012, 04:52 PM
This thread is still going on?

chasjay
11-29-2012, 04:54 PM
This thread is still going on?

The thread died some time ago - just a few of us scavengers gnawing on the carcass.

Rudyy
11-29-2012, 05:25 PM
Eli would probably look at this thread and be like lol wtf.

BuffyBlueII
11-29-2012, 05:26 PM
As I said earlier I am an army of 1.

Fortunately my opponents are unarmed.

You are just as unarmed as the broad Beatrix Kiddo threw in the trunk of a car, lol..............

Roosevelt
11-29-2012, 05:26 PM
That is just an incorrect statement. Would that be why he had a 55.4 average? You mention two short throws that didn't make it in the vicinity of the target, that is how you define greatness? Seems a little narrow sighted to me...

What about the -24 degree Packers game, the two Super Bowls, all the other playoff games, the yards in the playoffs, the consecutive starts, the 4th quarter comebacks and touchdowns? I would think leading your team to 24 4th quarter comebacks and having the most td in the 4th quarter would be a better measure of greatness than looking at any number of throws that didn't make it to the target. In addition, you fail to ask why those throws were off, pressure, throwing lanes, etc...

Eli's has done great things - no question. He's brought us a career's worth of memories and he still has many good years left.

But there was no pressure on those 2 throws. And those should be easy throws to make. It's like a basketball player that can nail 3's but then frustrates the hell out of you because he misses too many easy layups.

In 2007 Plaxico was our offensive MVP. Without him we are not winning the Super Bowl, period. And of course our defense played a huge part in that Super Bowl as well. I wouldn't have given the MVP to Eli that year. I would have given it to Justin Tuck.

G-MENBK
11-29-2012, 05:29 PM
Not that I agree with MS on Ryan and Freeman (who is becoming the sidekick to Doug Martin now) being near Eli in the big picture but one does have to admit that winning championships is easier to do with the Giants and Steelers vs. the Falcons and Bucs.

I could agree with the Bucs, but the Falcons?

They were the 1 seed in the NFC and they got trounced by the Packers, at home. Add in the potent offense we faced last season, 0 points from them.

TheEnigma
11-29-2012, 05:35 PM
I could agree with the Bucs, but the Falcons?

They were the 1 seed in the NFC and they got trounced by the Packers, at home. Add in the potent offense we faced last season, 0 points from them.

I'm talking in terms of franchise history. Heck, the Falcons didn't even have back to back winning seasons until the conclusion of 2009. Our owners and FO have good heads on their shoulders in comparison to some other teams.

G-MENBK
11-29-2012, 05:47 PM
I'm talking in terms of franchise history. Heck, the Falcons didn't even have back to back winning seasons until the conclusion of 2009. Our owners and FO have good heads on their shoulders in comparison to some other teams.

Sure, if you were to talk about franchise history, the Giants are a cut above both the Bucs and Falcons...but recently, you can't deny that the Falcons have been a hot team, only with regards to the regular season.

Since 2008, the Falcons have had more regular season wins than the Giants and they have made more playoff appearances. The problem is the Giants have won more playoff games in that time span and brought home the Lombardi.

GameTime
11-29-2012, 05:50 PM
Eli is everything you said but at the same time he's also someone who has trouble making short throws as evidenced by his terrible throws to Hyno and Ahmad last game. When I see that I don't think of greatest.

Contrast that with Phil. When Phil had time his passes were always on the money.
come on Rosie...so the only reason Simms ever threw and incomplete is when he was pressured??..
All QBs cough up throws...short or long....please

TheEnigma
11-29-2012, 05:57 PM
Sure, if you were to talk about franchise history, the Giants are a cut above both the Bucs and Falcons...but recently, you can't deny that the Falcons have been a hot team, only with regards to the regular season.

Since 2008, the Falcons have had more regular season wins than the Giants and they have made more playoff appearances. The problem is the Giants have won more playoff games in that time span and brought home the Lombardi.

But the question now is which division was more competitive between the NFCS and the NFCE since that year? You had the Panthers and Bucs only posting one really noteworthy year in that whole span as a team which left the division to the Saints and Falcons for the most part. With the NFCE, you're talking about a division that is rarely ever won back-to-back and usually has 3 teams still in the hunt when everything is taken into account at the end of the season. Are the Falcons really as good as their regular season record indicates? One could say that the Giants W:L ratio is truly never accurate due to the fact they consistently find themselves with some of the toughest schedules in the league. It's really an interesting debate.

Broadway Blue
11-29-2012, 05:59 PM
come on Rosie...so the only reason Simms ever threw and incomplete is when he was pressured??..
All QBs cough up throws...short or long....please

X2

G-MENBK
11-29-2012, 06:21 PM
But the question now is which division was more competitive between the NFCS and the NFCE since that year? You had the Panthers and Bucs only posting one really noteworthy year in that whole span as a team which left the division to the Saints and Falcons for the most part. With the NFCE, you're talking about a division that is rarely ever won back-to-back and usually has 3 teams still in the hunt when everything is taken into account at the end of the season. Are the Falcons really as good as their regular season record indicates? One could say that the Giants W:L ratio is truly never accurate due to the fact they consistently find themselves with some of the toughest schedules in the league. It's really an interesting debate.

2008 - 2009 playoffs (Panthers, Falcons) - (Giants, Eagles): Tie
2009 - 2010 playoffs (Saints) - (Cowboys, Eagles): Advantage NFCE. [Saints win Super Bowl]
2010 - 2011 playoffs (Falcons, Saints) - (Eagles): Advantage NFCS.
2011 - 2012 playoffs (Saints, Falcons) - (Giants): Advantage NFCS. [Giants win Super Bowl]

Both divisions have had three different teams win their respected division (No back-to-back winners), two Super Bowls have gone to both divisions, and going by this, the NFCS was able to have more teams represent their division in the playoffs than the NFCE.

Honestly, and this has and really is getting amplified today, the NFCE is overrated. Remember when the Giants won their first Super Bowl with Eli? That playoffs, 3 divisional teams made it in (Cowboys, Giants, Redskins).

Eliscruzzz
11-29-2012, 07:21 PM
X2X100

Roosevelt
11-29-2012, 07:49 PM
come on Rosie...so the only reason Simms ever threw and incomplete is when he was pressured??..
All QBs cough up throws...short or long....please

I didn't say that GT, but you have to admit that once Simms matured, when he had time you knew the pass would be where it needed to be. Now whether or not it was caught, or if the defense made a great play, that's just part of the game.

I'm talking about short passes in my example; wide open receiver and open passing lane. One pass was way too high and the other was thrown way too hard. I just don't expect that type of play from a top QB. Mark Sanchez, yes.

So for anyone who thinks Eli is great, I would ask you if you consider our team great? I know our team can be great, but we don't always play that way.

I see no difference with Eli.

Dline83
11-29-2012, 08:11 PM
I didn't say that GT, but you have to admit that once Simms matured, when he had time you knew the pass would be where it needed to be. Now whether or not it was caught, or if the defense made a great play, that's just part of the game.

I'm talking about short passes in my example; wide open receiver and open passing lane. One pass was way too high and the other was thrown way too hard. I just don't expect that type of play from a top QB. Mark Sanchez, yes.

So for anyone who thinks Eli is great, I would ask you if you consider our team great? I know our team can be great, but we don't always play that way.

I see no difference with Eli.

Every qb has throws like that, all of them. What about all the playoff games with over 70 percent completions? I would say that two Super Bowls and the way we got them, was pretty great...

Roosevelt
11-29-2012, 08:54 PM
Every qb has throws like that, all of them. What about all the playoff games with over 70 percent completions? I would say that two Super Bowls and the way we got them, was pretty great...

Don't get me wrong Dline, I'm not discounting everything Eli has done for us. 2007's SB win ranks right up there with the greatest days of my life.

I'm simply giving my reason why (at present) I don't consider Eli one of the greatest of all time or "elite" as everyone likes to call it, which I believe is what Simms was talking about.

I do think Eli is among the best during his era. That I agree with. He's in my top 4 or 5, but I don't see how you can ignore his recent slump and claim you're being objective. Granted, as defending world champs most people would be willing to cut their best players slack, but when it comes down to asking if he's amongst the very best, I think we need to look at it critically not give him a pass simply because of past accomplishments.

Dline83
11-29-2012, 10:32 PM
Don't get me wrong Dline, I'm not discounting everything Eli has done for us. 2007's SB win ranks right up there with the greatest days of my life.

I'm simply giving my reason why (at present) I don't consider Eli one of the greatest of all time or "elite" as everyone likes to call it, which I believe is what Simms was talking about.

I do think Eli is among the best during his era. That I agree with. He's in my top 4 or 5, but I don't see how you can ignore his recent slump and claim you're being objective. Granted, as defending world champs most people would be willing to cut their best players slack, but when it comes down to asking if he's amongst the very best, I think we need to look at it critically not give him a pass simply because of past accomplishments.

I think you and I are essentially saying the samething:


I would say that the 6th best qb in the league, with two Super Bowl wins, two Super Bowl MVP awards, and many other accolades would be considered one of the greats of the era. The word elite really is meaningless, and my argument has never been that he is elite, I do think that he is one of the best qbs in the league, and the best qb the Giants have ever had, just my opinion.

A qb can be elite from game to game, was Rodgers last game "elite"? How about Payton's three pick performance earlier in the year? The different things that play into each of those games and the outcomes also are rarely taken into consideration. Against the Steelers our line could do barely anything to stop the pressure from getting to Manning. You commented somewhere about the int he threw right into the arms of the linebacker in the Washington game, it is really impossible to know why he did not see the player there, throwing lanes not being open, under pressure, the play breaking down, it could be any multiple of things. Im not making an excuse for the throw or the outcome, bad decision to throw it, but I am saying that to just lay the blame on the fact that he did not see him is really not looking at the play fully. I don't really care if people think Eli is elite or not, but I do think that when he has beaten some of the best qbs in the game on the biggest stages multiple times, that a good amount of credit is due.

The only difference might be that you think Simms is the best qb the Giants have ever had, and you are entitled to that, and I would not ever try to persuade you to think differently, that is a matter of opinion. I just feel that when you look at Eli's career it warrents him being in the discussion of the best of his time.

Roosevelt
11-29-2012, 10:56 PM
I think you and I are essentially saying the samething:



The only difference might be that you think Simms is the best qb the Giants have ever had, and you are entitled to that, and I would not ever try to persuade you to think differently, that is a matter of opinion. I just feel that when you look at Eli's career it warrents him being in the discussion of the best of his time.

Phil Simms is my all-time favorite Giant which automatically makes Eli my second favorite QB.

We obviously agree more than we disagree but I will say that I don't get down on Eli (or any other player) for pressing, but I do get down on Eli when he miscues on an easy play.

giantsfan420
11-29-2012, 11:29 PM
im curious as to how brees performance is viewed by some here. this kind of performance isnt new to Brees either, he's had several games like this over his career where his ints had buried any chance at winning. now i know 95% of the time, brees is epic, but that other 5% he has some terrible stinkers....
also, matt ryan has had a 5 int game, and an 11/25 for 140 (or whatever his stat line was tonite) in 2 of the last 3 weeks...

it is my contention that even the elite qbs have bad games. i just think, as in any fan base, ur gonna have people with knee jerk reactions. i doubt we're going to see people let these pretty awful performances by brees and ryan redefine their level of play. eh i dunno i was just curious bc ive seen people literally state that "the great qbs simply do not have performances like eli has on bad days" and its just so completely untrue its ridiculous. i mean peyton manning had a 3 game stretch of like 12 ints (4x a game 3 games in a row) the final PLAYING year at Indy...maybe brady is the exception to the rule and doesnt really slump as much as have a bad game here n there, but even he has had stretches where he didnt play anywheres near his capability.

and performances like tonight for brees really isnt anything new, he has a game or 2 like this a season. Im curious to see if Simms discusses the "elite" issue with brees performance...

giantsfan420
11-29-2012, 11:37 PM
i just find it a lil odd how it was really only giants fans who devalued eli bc of the slump. eli was leading the league in yards and was actually being dscusses as the league mvp candidate before his god awful slump. yeah it was terrible, and yeah he is prone to it, just couldnt get how it seemed as if people actually still believe eli is that qb instead of the 2011 one bc their responses def felt along the lines of "see, I told you, hes not great." i mean SKIP ****ING BAYLESS and rob parker felt simms statement held zero truth to it and that he was making the statement bc his pride, and that eli was elite bc of what he's done and what they know he will do...and thats the kings of knee jerk responses.
when peyton threw those 3 first quarter ints at atlanta earlier in the year, there were people so quick to write him off, so it isnt exclusive to just eli. it just seems people are quicker to forget all the great things hes done and remember the tough times when eli goes thru a slump. maybe thats justified, but claiming no great qbs slump like eli did has just been proven wrong imho.

byron
11-29-2012, 11:54 PM
im curious as to how brees performance is viewed by some here. this kind of performance isnt new to Brees either, he's had several games like this over his career where his ints had buried any chance at winning. now i know 95% of the time, brees is epic, but that other 5% he has some terrible stinkers....
also, matt ryan has had a 5 int game, and an 11/25 for 140 (or whatever his stat line was tonite) in 2 of the last 3 weeks...

it is my contention that even the elite qbs have bad games. i just think, as in any fan base, ur gonna have people with knee jerk reactions. i doubt we're going to see people let these pretty awful performances by brees and ryan redefine their level of play. eh i dunno i was just curious bc ive seen people literally state that "the great qbs simply do not have performances like eli has on bad days" and its just so completely untrue its ridiculous. i mean peyton manning had a 3 game stretch of like 12 ints (4x a game 3 games in a row) the final PLAYING year at Indy...maybe brady is the exception to the rule and doesnt really slump as much as have a bad game here n there, but even he has had stretches where he didnt play anywheres near his capability.

and performances like tonight for brees really isnt anything new, he has a game or 2 like this a season. Im curious to see if Simms discusses the "elite" issue with brees performance... If your all ready elite you get a pass for such games as brees had tonight, unless of coarse your name is Eli...There is a whole different set of standards for our boy....thats seven picks for brees with two pick 6's in the last two weeks...just saying.....;) maybe he should be a little more carefull with the football.....

Martyr
11-30-2012, 12:13 AM
**** Phil Simms, the Giants won a super bowl with a backup Qb when he got hurt

You sir are a fool!

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 12:19 AM
If your all ready elite you get a pass for such games as brees had tonight, unless of coarse your name is Eli...There is a whole different set of standards for our boy....thats seven picks for brees with two pick 6's in the last two weeks...just saying.....;) maybe he should be a little more carefull with the football.....

well to be fair, 7 ints in 2 weeks is bad but one of the d's was SF. although, the 3 game slump eli had was vs dallas and pitt who are 2 of the top 3 pass d's iirc...i dunno. i know brees is tremendous and no doubt elite, but he has had issues with ints almost as badly as eli, and in some instances worse...but yeah brees leads the nfl in ints now, im curious to hear simms discuss brees, itd be awesome if someone asked him if he thought brees wasnt elite now just bc im curious to hear his opinion

byron
11-30-2012, 12:28 AM
well to be fair, 7 ints in 2 weeks is bad but one of the d's was SF. although, the 3 game slump eli had was vs dallas and pitt who are 2 of the top 3 pass d's iirc...i dunno. i know brees is tremendous and no doubt elite, but he has had issues with ints almost as badly as eli, and in some instances worse...but yeah brees leads the nfl in ints now, im curious to hear simms discuss brees, itd be awesome if someone asked him if he thought brees wasnt elite now just bc im curious to hear his opinion I'm just messing man they all have their days as Giants fans we focus on our boy hence the different standard by ... imho.........I loved Phil also watched him play his whole career here.... he gets paid to runs his gums maybe he wishes he'd kept the shut now probably that we will never know.....

BeatYale
11-30-2012, 12:41 AM
I don't understand how so many fans can be upset at his comments. The guy has a point. Giants fans typically have a biased opinion and will try everything they can to block out the fact that Eli isn't nearly as efficient as guys like Rodgers, Brees, Peyton and Brady on a consistent basis. If Eli had production that was more similar to them, the Giants would ridiculously be a better team. There is no denying that.

You guys need to relax and accept Eli for what he is. Regardless of the inconsistent play from season to season, we're capable of winning championships with him. The best team wins championships, not the team with the best QB.

nygfanmaybe
11-30-2012, 05:50 AM
. If Eli had production that was more similar to them, the Giants would ridiculously be a better team. There is no denying that.



...and over the last 8 years the Giants would have more Lombardi's than Brady, Peyton, Brees, and Rodgers. Oh...wait...

Dline83
11-30-2012, 07:46 AM
im curious as to how brees performance is viewed by some here. this kind of performance isnt new to Brees either, he's had several games like this over his career where his ints had buried any chance at winning. now i know 95% of the time, brees is epic, but that other 5% he has some terrible stinkers....
also, matt ryan has had a 5 int game, and an 11/25 for 140 (or whatever his stat line was tonite) in 2 of the last 3 weeks...

it is my contention that even the elite qbs have bad games. i just think, as in any fan base, ur gonna have people with knee jerk reactions. i doubt we're going to see people let these pretty awful performances by brees and ryan redefine their level of play. eh i dunno i was just curious bc ive seen people literally state that "the great qbs simply do not have performances like eli has on bad days" and its just so completely untrue its ridiculous. i mean peyton manning had a 3 game stretch of like 12 ints (4x a game 3 games in a row) the final PLAYING year at Indy...maybe brady is the exception to the rule and doesnt really slump as much as have a bad game here n there, but even he has had stretches where he didnt play anywheres near his capability.

and performances like tonight for brees really isnt anything new, he has a game or 2 like this a season. Im curious to see if Simms discusses the "elite" issue with brees performance...

One thing I noticed other than the 4 int were his throws just seemed to be off sometimes, he gunned it on a check down pass to the rb, who dropped the pass, was high on several throws, and had that one hopper that bounced off the ground a few yards in front of his open wr. Like I said earlier all qb make those types of throws sometimes.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 07:54 AM
Don't get me wrong Dline, I'm not discounting everything Eli has done for us. 2007's SB win ranks right up there with the greatest days of my life.

I'm simply giving my reason why (at present) I don't consider Eli one of the greatest of all time or "elite" as everyone likes to call it, which I believe is what Simms was talking about.

I do think Eli is among the best during his era. That I agree with. He's in my top 4 or 5, but I don't see how you can ignore his recent slump and claim you're being objective. Granted, as defending world champs most people would be willing to cut their best players slack, but when it comes down to asking if he's amongst the very best, I think we need to look at it critically not give him a pass simply because of past accomplishments.

I think what you need to realize is that you see Eli play every week, so you see all of the good and the bad (and the bad naturally sticks in our minds).

If you watch any QB week to week, you'll see bad throws, apathetic play, head scratching decisions and so forth.

P.S. - You're insane about Simms ... there's a reason fans wanted to get rid of him even after the 86 season. His best asset was that he was consistent but his level of consistency was fairly mediocre.

rebelfan1966
11-30-2012, 08:19 AM
Im sure Phil does not consider himself one of the Elites of his era either..... I don't think his comments were meant to come across negatively.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 08:20 AM
Im sure Phil does not consider himself one of the Elites of his era either..... I don't think his comments were meant to come across negatively.

Phil is more bitter than Harry Carson was about not getting into the HoF.

Phil has a very high opinion of himself. Just ask him.

rebelfan1966
11-30-2012, 08:23 AM
Phil is more bitter than Harry Carson was about not getting into the HoF.

Phil has a very high opinion of himself. Just ask him.

Well, he probably had a hard time swallowing that bitter pill Sunday when Eli passed him up with #200..... lol

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 08:25 AM
Well, he probably had a hard time swallowing that bitter pill Sunday when Eli passed him up with #200..... lol

And there's that.

No sportsman, no matter how gracious, in his heart of hearts likes to see his records surpassed.

Just ask the 72' Miami Dolphins team, many of whom still get together every year and throw a party when the last unbeaten team loses.

Toadofsteel
11-30-2012, 08:27 AM
If Eli is not elite by virtue of completely screwing up a game (in this case vs CIN), then Rodgers and Brees aren't elite either... Rodgers laid an egg vs us, and I don't need to bring up what Brees just did.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 10:17 AM
I think what you need to realize is that you see Eli play every week, so you see all of the good and the bad (and the bad naturally sticks in our minds).

If you watch any QB week to week, you'll see bad throws, apathetic play, head scratching decisions and so forth.

P.S. - You're insane about Simms ... there's a reason fans wanted to get rid of him even after the 86 season. His best asset was that he was consistent but his level of consistency was fairly mediocre.

I understand perfectly that Eli is human and makes mistakes just like any other quarterback. What I'm pointing out are passing issues that are atypical of a great QB.

As for Simms career, if you're calling me insane, what do you call Wellington Mara (who's lived his entire life on the football field) and the Giants organization for retiring his jersey? Sorry, but every player and coach that played with him and against him has very high regards for him as a player. I trust these guys and my own eyes over a bunch of clueless fans that would cheer a guy when he's hurt.

I used argue with a couple of guys (prior to 86) about Simms. They would blame him for all our struggles, telling me he was a bum and that he'd NEVER win the big game. Well, after he got done killing it in the big game, they reluctantly had to shut up. The only fans that could have possibly wanted Phil gone after 86 had to be similar fans to these two guys. Someone who thought they knew what they were talking about but didn't.

Dline83
11-30-2012, 10:43 AM
I have DirectI understand perfectly that Eli is human and makes mistakes just like any other quarterback. What I'm pointing out are passing issues that are atypical of a great QB.

As for Simms career, if you're calling me insane, what do you call Wellington Mara (who's lived his entire life on the football field) and the Giants organization for retiring his jersey? Sorry, but every player and coach that played with him and against him has very high regards for him as a player. I trust these guys and my own eyes over a bunch of clueless fans that would cheer a guy when he's hurt.

I used argue with a couple of guys (prior to 86) about Simms. They would blame him for all our struggles, telling me he was a bum and that he'd NEVER win the big game. Well, after he got done killing it in the big game, they reluctantly had to shut up. The only fans that could have possibly wanted Phil gone after 86 had to be similar fans to these two guys. Someone who thought they knew what they were talking about but didn't.


I think one of the things that we are all kind of skipping over is that becoming great/elite/whatever you want to call it, is a progression. Simms had great games and bad games, Eli has had great games and bad games, all the great qbs have great games and bad games. I agree to say Eli is one of the best qbs to ever play the game is premature, it really is impossible to judge that until we have a complete body of work to look at. To say he is on his way, in my opinion, is a fair statement, but again, that's my opinion, not everyone has to agree with that. I think to say the passing issues are atypical of a great qb is a bit misleading, yes Eli sometimes can be off target, but so can everyone, Bree's did many of the things last night that you mentioned about Eli, throwing a bullet pass on a check down to the rb, one hopping an open wr, ect. As for myself being biased, you might be correct about that, but I have no problem pointing out faults in Eli, I just think that the positive far out ways the negative.

dezzzR
11-30-2012, 10:46 AM
Its official. Brees is no longer elite.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 10:58 AM
I have DirectI understand perfectly that Eli is human and makes mistakes just like any other quarterback. What I'm pointing out are passing issues that are atypical of a great QB.

As for Simms career, if you're calling me insane, what do you call Wellington Mara (who's lived his entire life on the football field) and the Giants organization for retiring his jersey? Sorry, but every player and coach that played with him and against him has very high regards for him as a player. I trust these guys and my own eyes over a bunch of clueless fans that would cheer a guy when he's hurt.

I used argue with a couple of guys (prior to 86) about Simms. They would blame him for all our struggles, telling me he was a bum and that he'd NEVER win the big game. Well, after he got done killing it in the big game, they reluctantly had to shut up. The only fans that could have possibly wanted Phil gone after 86 had to be similar fans to these two guys. Someone who thought they knew what they were talking about but didn't.

Retired numbers are no indication of a player's "greatness", just the ownership's regard for the player. Totally separate issue.

I love Phil, the team he played for and what he did for us however his numbers were pedestrian at best and he was never a great thrower (wildly inaccurate past 15 yards). He was known for liking to throw long all day long and had to be reigned in because he couldn't complete those. Conversely, his best throw was the seam pass which we exploited when we could. Many say that he played in a conservative run oriented offense ... I say we ran a conservative run oriented offense BECAUSE of Phil's limitations.

Conversely we currently run an aggressive pass oriented offense (and the most prolific offense in Giants history I might add) BECAUSE Eli is that kind of QB. If you want to say that Brees or Rodgers is better or that Eli isn't elite, then that's your opinion and you have every right to it.

However you seem to have a bad case of rose colored glasses which apparently change to bright green when viewing other lawns.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 11:14 AM
I think one of the things that we are all kind of skipping over is that becoming great/elite/whatever you want to call it, is a progression. Simms had great games and bad games, Eli has had great games and bad games, all the great qbs have great games and bad games. I agree to say Eli is one of the best qbs to ever play the game is premature, it really is impossible to judge that until we have a complete body of work to look at. To say he is on his way, in my opinion, is a fair statement, but again, that's my opinion, not everyone has to agree with that. I think to say the passing issues are atypical of a great qb is a bit misleading, yes Eli sometimes can be off target, but so can everyone, Bree's did many of the things last night that you mentioned about Eli, throwing a bullet pass on a check down to the rb, one hopping an open wr, ect. As for myself being biased, you might be correct about that, but I have no problem pointing out faults in Eli, I just think that the positive far out ways the negative.

So then Phil saying Eli isn't elite right now makes sense and no one should have blown his comments out of proportion.

That's what I've been saying all along.

GameTime
11-30-2012, 11:38 AM
Phil Simms is my all-time favorite Giant which automatically makes Eli my second favorite QB.

We obviously agree more than we disagree but I will say that I don't get down on Eli (or any other player) for pressing, but I do get down on Eli when he miscues on an easy play.
Simms can always be your favorite Giant but he doesnt need to be the best. One of my fave Giants is Rodney Hampton and he's not the best running back they have had....

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 11:44 AM
Retired numbers are no indication of a player's "greatness", just the ownership's regard for the player. Totally separate issue.

I love Phil, the team he played for and what he did for us however his numbers were pedestrian at best and he was never a great thrower (wildly inaccurate past 15 yards). He was known for liking to throw long all day long and had to be reigned in because he couldn't complete those. Conversely, his best throw was the seam pass which we exploited when we could. Many say that he played in a conservative run oriented offense ... I say we ran a conservative run oriented offense BECAUSE of Phil's limitations.

Conversely we currently run an aggressive pass oriented offense (and the most prolific offense in Giants history I might add) BECAUSE Eli is that kind of QB. If you want to say that Brees or Rodgers is better or that Eli isn't elite, then that's your opinion and you have every right to it.

However you seem to have a bad case of rose colored glasses which apparently change to bright green when viewing other lawns.

Eli is on my lawn so I don't see it that way. I'm simply giving my opinion on both QB's. But my main point in all of this is that I don't think Phil was off base in his comments.

I would think playing at level which earns you a league MVP award puts you in the elite category. Eli (IMO) has had one great complete season in his 8 year career. He's had a lot of great moments so don't get me wrong, including of course the unfathomable ending in 2007. Eli is a special QB for sure, but he's not a great passer. Obviously that doesn't matter when it comes to getting the job done, but it does matter (I believe) when we're considering where he ranks at his position.

We must agree to disagree on Phil's career because I just don't see as you call it. Frst you're stating that Phil was "wildly inaccurate past 15 yards," and then you go on to say "his best throw was the seam pass." Weren't all those seam passes over 15 yards?

Next, BP used to infuriate Ron Earhart for cutting the balls out of his offensive game plan. Bill's strategy was to get a 7 pt. lead and then try and run out the clock. We used to throw only when we had to. If you think playing QB for Parcells (at that time) was conducive for a QB's success, there's not much I can say. Only that Bill Walsh wanted Simms for his offense. And Bill Walsh knew a thing or two about quarterbacks and offenses.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 12:02 PM
Eli is on my lawn so I don't see it that way. I'm simply giving my opinion on both QB's. But my main point in all of this is that I don't think Phil was off base in his comments.


I think he was a touch off base ... especially if you consider that Eli is going to most likely play at least another five years. Even at pedestrian numbers that will put his stats among the best of all time.

He came off sounding a bit like sour grapes ... especially with the timing of beating Simms TD record.



I would think playing at level which earns you a league MVP award puts you in the elite category. Eli (IMO) has had one great complete season in his 8 year career. He's had a lot of great moments so don't get me wrong, including of course the unfathomable ending in 2007. Eli is a special QB for sure, but he's not a great passer. Obviously that doesn't matter when it comes to getting the job done, but it does matter (I believe) when we're considering where he ranks at his position.


Ok, at least that's a measuring stick. Would you consider Rich Gannon a great QB? He won a league MVP. I'd call him a good QB who had one great season in a long career. How about Roger Staubach? I'd say (and have said) he was a great QB and he never won a league MVP. Or Troy Aikman? or Jim Kelly?



We must agree to disagree on Phil's career because I just don't see as you call it. Frst you're stating that Phil was "wildly inaccurate past 15 yards," and then you go on to say "his best throw was the seam pass." Weren't all those seam passes over 15 yards?


10-15 yard passes. The reason it was his best pass was because he could hit people in stride (no mean feat).



Next, BP used to infuriate Ron Earhart for cutting the balls out of his offensive game plan. Bill's strategy was to get a 7 pt. lead and then try and run out the clock. We used to throw only when we had to. If you think playing QB for Parcells (at that time) was conducive for a QB's success, there's not much I can say. Only that Bill Walsh wanted Simms for his offense. And Bill Walsh knew a thing or two about quarterbacks and offenses.

BP went on to New England, Jets and the Cowboys and had prolific passing teams.

yatitle
11-30-2012, 12:36 PM
Simms most "accurate" years were the last 2 years of his career. Don't think it is far fetched to believe the same might be true for Eli.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SimmPh00.htm

Dline83
11-30-2012, 12:58 PM
So then Phil saying Eli isn't elite right now makes sense and no one should have blown his comments out of proportion.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Like I've been saying, that is his opinion, I never made a comment about Simms saying Eli was elite, all of my arguments were started because Morehead State said that Simms was just a better football player then Manning and then shifted into my argument that Manning is one of the greats of his time.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 01:07 PM
Retired numbers are no indication of a player's "greatness", just the ownership's regard for the player. Totally separate issue.

Are you serious with this?

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 01:31 PM
"eli isnt a great passer"...i dont even know how to begin with that one...

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 01:31 PM
I think he was a touch off base ... especially if you consider that Eli is going to most likely play at least another five years. Even at pedestrian numbers that will put his stats among the best of all time.

He came off sounding a bit like sour grapes ... especially with the timing of beating Simms TD record.



Ok, at least that's a measuring stick. Would you consider Rich Gannon a great QB? He won a league MVP. I'd call him a good QB who had one great season in a long career. How about Roger Staubach? I'd say (and have said) he was a great QB and he never won a league MVP. Or Troy Aikman? or Jim Kelly?



10-15 yard passes. The reason it was his best pass was because he could hit people in stride (no mean feat).



BP went on to New England, Jets and the Cowboys and had prolific passing teams.

If Phil had a history of taking shots at Eli I might believe what some of you are suggesting, but Phil has always spoken highly of Eli so I'm not inclined to think it's personal. Even years ago when Eli was struggling with his consistency, Phil always propped him up. I think the answer is pretty simple. Phil was asked the question when Eli was in a funk. That's the only reason why I believe he said that. Let's face it, it's not like we are talking about Dan Marino's record. I'm pretty sure Phil knew his record/s would be broken someday.

When I mentioned the MVP, I was talking about that on top of what he's done. Not just one MVP award. Whether we agree that Eli is elite, we probably all agree that he's pretty damn good.

As for Parcells, I have to give him credit for evolving with the game, although, early on I thought he was a terrible offensive coach. Many times I felt we won in spite of Bill's coaching decisions.

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 01:35 PM
i guess ill start with "eli has the highest % completion on passes 20 yds or more, as well as the most passes traveled 20 yds in the air or more over the last what, 3 seasons?"
the fact he is able to be so competitive with other qbs passer completion, qb rating when he's making so many more difficult throws a year, to me, means he is one helluva passer.
peyton manning throws the ugliest ducks ive ever seen...guess what, they all are on target. is he not "a great passer"? eli doesnt always have the prettiest ball, he also rarely has the time to set his feet and plant into the throw with how quickly he consistently gets rid of the ball. he's able to make those passes 20 yds or more with more success than other qbs while often having to throw off his back foot...eli's saving grace imo is his ability as a passer. he makes stick throws in situations other qbs simply cannot ie the sb pass to MM...

GameTime
11-30-2012, 01:43 PM
All QBs wether great, elite, thebest of the best, or whatever have quirks so to speak. Eli's happens to be boneheaded playes here and there and some inconsistency. Ok....so what. Look at that the overall picture thus far and the results....not too bad right?....

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 01:54 PM
As for Parcells, I have to give him credit for evolving with the game, although, early on I thought he was a terrible offensive coach. Many times I felt we won in spite of Bill's coaching decisions.

Ohhh gotta disagree there big guy.

As for Simms comments, I believe they were more attention driven then anything. Simms is an analyst/commentator and he needs talking point material as much as anyone. But yeah I think part of it was maliciously driven. Phil has never struck me as the overly evolved type.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 03:26 PM
Simms can always be your favorite Giant but he doesnt need to be the best. One of my fave Giants is Rodney Hampton and he's not the best running back they have had....

Ever since last season I haven't said Phil was the best. But what I've always said and still believe is that Phil threw the ball much better than Eli does. Eli's accuracy has definitely improved but after this latest slump he's shown that he still hasn't out grown his bad habits. Who knows, maybe he never will.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 03:34 PM
"eli isnt a great passer"...i dont even know how to begin with that one...

Before you do, let me tell you something Eli was saying about his big brother. Someone had asked Eli how Peyton was doing and Eli respond that he "continues to make progress" and that you can see by his throws (that he's throwing tighter spirals - his words) as the season has progressed.

Now let's be honest, Eli has thrown and continues to throw a lot of wobbly ducks. No doubt he has improved, especially with his accuracy, but he just doesn't throw a great pass. And of course we all know that has stopped him from being a two-time SB MVP. So don't get your panties in a bunch over it. Everything is relative. It's just football talk.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 03:36 PM
All QBs wether great, elite, thebest of the best, or whatever have quirks so to speak. Eli's happens to be boneheaded playes here and there and some inconsistency. Ok....so what. Look at that the overall picture thus far and the results....not too bad right?....

Not bad at all. Now this might be dumb on my part, but I would not trade Eli straight up for any quarterback in the league right now.

Other guys might be a little better, but I'm perfectly happy with Eli.

GameTime
11-30-2012, 03:38 PM
Ever since last season I haven't said Phil was the best. But what I've always said and still believe is that Phil threw the ball much better than Eli does. Eli's accuracy has definitely improved but after this latest slump he's shown that he still hasn't out grown his bad habits. Who knows, maybe he never will.
Phil threw a nice ball the spiral wise then Eli for sure. I guess he was more accurate but I cant really say that for sure. I have seen Eli hit many a tight window. As you said....Eli isnt out growing anything.....IMO its the way he is....

GameTime
11-30-2012, 03:38 PM
Not bad at all. Now this might be dumb on my part, but I would not trade Eli straight up for any quarterback in the league right now.

Other guys might be a little better, but I'm perfectly happy with Eli.

agreed....he works in this system.....

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 03:40 PM
Not bad at all. Now this might be dumb on my part, but I would not trade Eli straight up for any quarterback in the league right now.

Other guys might be a little better, but I'm perfectly happy with Eli.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on Eli and why I consider him elite.

I would have traded Simms for Montana in a heartbeat.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 03:40 PM
Ohhh gotta disagree there big guy.

As for Simms comments, I believe they were more attention driven then anything. Simms is an analyst/commentator and he needs talking point material as much as anyone. But yeah I think part of it was maliciously driven. Phil has never struck me as the overly evolved type.


lol. You might be right, but I've always seen him as the kinda of guy who talks players up. I guy who if he doesn't have something nice to say he doesn't say anything.

I think he was being honest and I didn't take it as a slight against Eli. But what I do think is if you are a HOF'er then you are among the best. And Phil said he thinks Eli is a HOF'er, so I'd say he might be talking out both sides of his mouth.

GameTime
11-30-2012, 03:41 PM
That pretty much sums up my feelings on Eli and why I consider him elite.

I would have traded Simms for Montana in a heartbeat.
Not after Marshall hit him though. He was then damaged goods....lol

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 03:41 PM
Not after Marshall hit him though. He was then damaged goods....lol

Ok you got me there :D

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 03:42 PM
That pretty much sums up my feelings on Eli and why I consider him elite.

I would have traded Simms for Montana in a heartbeat.

Ah, but would Joe have thrived here in the Meadowlands as he did with Joe Walsh? I don't think so.

TheEnigma
11-30-2012, 03:43 PM
Eli's definitely underwhelming when it comes to the short passing game but I don't think he gets enough consideration for his deep ball accuracy, especially when he puts it in places that defenders can do nothing about. Even down the slump stretch this year, he had a pass or two that was excellent but dropped by the receiver (looking at you Cruz).

I still think Cutler has the best arm in the league when you consider his release time and how fast that sucker travels to the receiver on his deep game. It's ashame that he has anger issues and suffers from inconsistency because he has the tools to be a top QB.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 03:43 PM
Phil threw a nice ball the spiral wise then Eli for sure. I guess he was more accurate but I cant really say that for sure. I have seen Eli hit many a tight window. As you said....Eli isnt out growing anything.....IMO its the way he is....

I thought last year was a precursor of what was to come. Perhaps I misjudged him.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 03:44 PM
lol. You might be right, but I've always seen him as the kinda of guy who talks players up. I guy who if he doesn't have something nice to say he doesn't say anything.

I think he was being honest and I didn't take it as a slight against Eli. But what I do think is if you are a HOF'er then you are among the best. And Phil said he thinks Eli is a HOF'er, so I'd say he might be talking out both sides of his mouth.

Oh yeah I don't disagree there ... Simms has been very flattering of Eli in the past (much more so then some other ex-Giants).

Simms, while very conscious of not saying stuff in front of the media as a player, was hell on wheels when the reporters weren't in front of him. LOTS of field recorded stuff that would make a trucker blush. He was never shy about his opinions in pseudo-private.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 03:46 PM
Ah, but would Joe have thrived here in the Meadowlands as he did with Joe Walsh? I don't think so.

I think so ... Ed DeBartolo Jr. was the driving force on that team, not Bill Walsh (from an emotional standpoint) and he and Parcells were very similar in their interactions with the players.

There's a great episode of The Football Life on Eddie D. on the NFL Network currently btw.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 03:48 PM
I thought last year was a precursor of what was to come. Perhaps I misjudged him.

I think last year was the best statistical year we can expect from Eli.

dezzzR
11-30-2012, 04:07 PM
I think last year was the best statistical year we can expect from Eli.He wont put those yards up again but I think he can put up +30 TDs again

DaKraken
11-30-2012, 04:26 PM
Can we end this thread - it's exhausting to keep seeing it rise to the top of the boards and be perpetuated.

The term "elite" is such a ridiculous adjective in sports. Who really cares what Phil Simms has to say about him at this point other than being a paid announcer and pundit to do so. He obviously has other feelings at play here given Eli passed him in the Giants record books.

Bottom line - Eli has two SB rings, is one of the handful of QBs in the game right now who even has one, and is amongst the very few in the league whose team can be confident they can win one with their current starting QB. We're lucky to have that. End of story.

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 04:38 PM
Before you do, let me tell you something Eli was saying about his big brother. Someone had asked Eli how Peyton was doing and Eli respond that he "continues to make progress" and that you can see by his throws (that he's throwing tighter spirals - his words) as the season has progressed.

Now let's be honest, Eli has thrown and continues to throw a lot of wobbly ducks. No doubt he has improved, especially with his accuracy, but he just doesn't throw a great pass. And of course we all know that has stopped him from being a two-time SB MVP. So don't get your panties in a bunch over it. Everything is relative. It's just football talk.
i guess ill start with "eli has the highest % completion on passes 20 yds or more, as well as the most passes traveled 20 yds in the air or more over the last what, 3 seasons?"
the fact he is able to be so competitive with other qbs passer completion, qb rating when he's making so many more difficult throws a year, to me, means he is one helluva passer.
peyton manning throws the ugliest ducks ive ever seen...guess what, they all are on target. is he not "a great passer"? eli doesnt always have the prettiest ball, he also rarely has the time to set his feet and plant into the throw with how quickly he consistently gets rid of the ball. he's able to make those passes 20 yds or more with more success than other qbs while often having to throw off his back foot...eli's saving grace imo is his ability as a passer. he makes stick throws in situations other qbs simply cannot ie the sb pass to MM...

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 04:41 PM
throwing the tightest spiral has nothing to do with being a great passer imo. jemarcus russell threw the tightest spiral i've ever seen, same with vick...they arent .25 the passer eli is...and eli still throws a very good spiral. sometimes, like the td pass to randle, when trying to place the ball on certain throws, ur just not gonna have a super tight spiral...and again, peyton throws the ugliest ducks ive ever seen, watch some full games of his even going back to indy...talk about wobblers...is it ur contention peyton isnt a great passer?

GameTime
11-30-2012, 05:37 PM
I thought last year was a precursor of what was to come. Perhaps I misjudged him.
no not really...you will see that again. But how many QBs are truly "slumpless"???? Most have them . Eli more than some.
Its his game.....this is what he does....

chasjay
11-30-2012, 08:28 PM
Ah, but would Joe have thrived here in the Meadowlands as he did with Joe Walsh? I don't think so.

I'm betting you meant Bill Walsh, Rosie, although I'm a big Joe Walsh fan too - 'cause life's been good to me so far.

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 08:31 PM
someone made sure this thread died

Marvelousmik
11-30-2012, 08:40 PM
no not really...you will see that again. But how many QBs are truly "slumpless"????.

brees. .. . Oh, wait.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 08:45 PM
Simms most "accurate" years were the last 2 years of his career. Don't think it is far fetched to believe the same might be true for Eli.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SimmPh00.htm

True, and I don't believe it's any coincidence that was around the same time the Giants brought in Jim Fassel to coach Simms. Eli grew up in football and has always had a QB coach. I'm not sure Eli has more to learn about the game of football.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 08:53 PM
I think so ... Ed DeBartolo Jr. was the driving force on that team, not Bill Walsh (from an emotional standpoint) and he and Parcells were very similar in their interactions with the players.

There's a great episode of The Football Life on Eddie D. on the NFL Network currently btw.


The system was Walsh's was it not?

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 09:15 PM
throwing the tightest spiral has nothing to do with being a great passer imo. jemarcus russell threw the tightest spiral i've ever seen, same with vick...they arent .25 the passer eli is...and eli still throws a very good spiral. sometimes, like the td pass to randle, when trying to place the ball on certain throws, ur just not gonna have a super tight spiral...and again, peyton throws the ugliest ducks ive ever seen, watch some full games of his even going back to indy...talk about wobblers...is it ur contention peyton isnt a great passer?

Do you fail to read the part where I wrote those were "ELI'S WORDS"?

Don't tell me, tell Eli.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 09:16 PM
I'm betting you meant Bill Walsh, Rosie, although I'm a big Joe Walsh fan too - 'cause life's been good to me so far.

lol. Actually I was referring to the former Giant coach and Jets head coach. :)

JJC7301
11-30-2012, 10:02 PM
C'mon everybody, let this thread go already.

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 10:07 PM
Do you fail to read the part where I wrote those were "ELI'S WORDS"?

Don't tell me, tell Eli.
but ur the one saying eli isnt a great passer bc he doesnt always have a tight spiral. eli was merely commenting on his brothers health and getting back into football. peyton prob couldnt throw at all at one point, and now he's throwing spirals...still, peyton has some of the uglies ducks ever even worse than eli. is peyton not a great passer? is simms a better "passer" then peyton bc simms had a tighter spiral? im really asking bc i believe even earlier in the thread you made the contention that eli would never be a good passer bc of some of the ducks he throws in comparison to simms...so if peyton throws an even uglier ball, that must follow suit for peyton too no?

we all just have different measurement parameters i guess, to me, if it isnt the prettiest spiral but still ends up where it needs to be, i dont hold that against a qb. im more into the results, then looks. and in a lot of ways, stats are metaphorically the looks of a qb, while w/l and success is the results...for me at least

ashleymarie
11-30-2012, 10:29 PM
Ohhh gotta disagree there big guy.

As for Simms comments, I believe they were more attention driven then anything. Simms is an analyst/commentator and he needs talking point material as much as anyone. But yeah I think part of it was maliciously driven. Phil has never struck me as the overly evolved type.

^

chasjay
11-30-2012, 10:57 PM
lol. Actually I was referring to the former Giant coach and Jets head coach. :)

you got me.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 11:09 PM
giantsfan420 but ur the one saying eli isnt a great passer bc he doesnt always have a tight spiral.

Those are your words not mine.



eli was merely commenting on his brothers health and getting back into football. peyton prob couldnt throw at all at one point, and now he's throwing spirals..

Please don't act like you know what you're talking about. Eli made these comments recently.




.still, peyton has some of the uglies ducks ever even worse than eli. is peyton not a great passer? is simms a better "passer" then peyton bc simms had a tighter spiral? im really asking bc i believe even earlier in the thread you made the contention that eli would never be a good passer bc of some of the ducks he throws in comparison to simms...so if peyton throws an even uglier ball, that must follow suit for peyton too no?

Again, your words. I've never thought of Peyton as a QB that can't throw. I've always thought of Peyton as a master of his position.


we all just have different measurement parameters i guess, to me, if it isnt the prettiest spiral but still ends up where it needs to be, i dont hold that against a qb. im more into the results, then looks. and in a lot of ways, stats are metaphorically the looks of a qb, while w/l and success is the results...for me at least

Quit getting hung up on the 'prettiest spiral' thing. Comment on his pass to Hyno and later to Ahmad. Tell me another truly great QB that makes throws like that.

Roosevelt
11-30-2012, 11:10 PM
you got me.

My bad. I was thinking about Joe Walton. :mad:

giantsfan420
11-30-2012, 11:45 PM
Those are your words not mine.



Please don't act like you know what you're talking about. Eli made these comments recently.




Again, your words. I've never thought of Peyton as a QB that can't throw. I've always thought of Peyton as a master of his position.



Quit getting hung up on the 'prettiest spiral' thing. Comment on his pass to Hyno and later to Ahmad. Tell me another truly great QB that makes throws like that.
brees and peyton. and i guess i misconstrued when u posted that simms threw a prettier ball and was a much better "passer". you've said many times in this thread that eli throws ugly passes and isnt a great passer.

you did say he wasnt a great passer, right? could you explain in more detail why? and also why he'll "never" be one bc you stated that as well...if misthrows are your criteria, then rodgers, peyton manning, brees, brady, simms...they're all not great passers then...brees had an int last night in the exact same manner that eli had one vs cinci and he was lambasted here...

im not trying to put down ur opinion, im just looking for your reasoning bc its mine and many intelligent fans belief that eli is a master of his position just like peyton is. and that eli is one of the better "pure" passers in the game with the types of throws he can make that other qbs simply cant/

Harooni
12-01-2012, 12:14 AM
i guess this is how people felt when they forgot about YA tittle. younger generation moves on and we have to expect it. I understand why some prefer Eli , its because its happening now not 20 years ago. hell some people arguing are only in there 20's.

We need to stop this back and forth and just be happy Eli got it. because 5-6 years ago i was pretty worried he was a doof.

Roosevelt
12-01-2012, 12:29 AM
giantsfan420 brees and peyton. and i guess i misconstrued when u posted that simms threw a prettier ball

This is why you are a ****. Quote me on this comment or shut the **** up.



and was a much better "passer". you've said many times in this thread that eli throws ugly passes and isnt a great passer.

you did say he wasnt a great passer, right? could you explain in more detail why?

I brought up the the recent throws to Hyno and Ahamd and asked you to comment. Here's your chance.



and also why he'll "never" be one bc you stated that as well...if misthrows are your criteria, then rodgers, peyton manning, brees, brady, simms...they're all not great passers then...brees had an int last night in the exact same manner that eli had one vs cinci and he was lambasted here...

I'm going to ignore the nonsense in this quote and address Brees last night. How many times has Brees played like that?


im not trying to put down

You could never put me down son.



ur opinion, im just looking for your reasoning bc its mine and many intelligent fans belief that eli is a master of his position just like peyton is.

Name one football player or coach that believes Eli is a master at QB, and quote him.



and that eli is one of the better "pure" passers in the game with the types of throws he can make that other qbs simply cant

I'd probably rank Eli as the lowest "pure" passer of the greatest QB's I've ever seen in my 30+ years of watching pro football.

Roosevelt
12-01-2012, 12:33 AM
We need to stop this back and forth and just be happy Eli got it. because 5-6 years ago i was pretty worried he was a doof.

Eli's no doof. We have only one doof, and he's on this message board.

giantsfan420
12-01-2012, 12:45 AM
This is why you are a ****. Quote me on this comment or shut the **** up.



I brought up the the recent throws to Hyno and Ahamd and asked you to comment. Here's your chance.




I'm going to ignore the nonsense in this quote and address Brees last night. How many times has Brees played like that?



You could never put me down son.




Name one football player or coach that believes Eli is a master at QB, and quote him.




I'd probably rank Eli as the lowest "pure" passer of the greatest QB's I've ever seen in my 30+ years of watching pro football.
ur incapable of just talking football. alright then. just wondered why you stated several times eli is not and will not be a great passer...whatever that means lmao.

edit- and just fyi, this last week leading to the gb game, aj hawk was on nfl network talking about how eli has mastered the qb position and can carve them up. tc and kg obviously. id prob say every coach whose played against eli feel he has mastery of the qb position.
and so again, ur def of not being great is a misthrow? like eli misthrew hyno? ok. well then there are no great qbs. i dont know how much of other qbs u actually do watch, but i think ud be surprised with just how many bad passes are thrown from every qb in the league by ur reaction to some of elis misthrows. didnt brady overthrow everyone by 30 yds in the sb for a safety? is he not great bc of that misthrow?

Roosevelt
12-01-2012, 12:49 AM
ur incapable of just talking football. alright then. just wondered why you stated several times eli is not and will not be a great passer...whatever that means lmao.


lmao. thanks 4 ur response to the hyno and bradshaw passes....you disingenuous prick. It's been fun.

Rudyy
12-01-2012, 12:57 AM
This is why you are a ****. Quote me on this comment or shut the **** up.I brought up the the recent throws to Hyno and Ahamd and asked you to comment. Here's your chance.I'm going to ignore the nonsense in this quote and address Brees last night. How many times has Brees played like that?You could never put me down son.Name one football player or coach that believes Eli is a master at QB, and quote him.I'd probably rank Eli as the lowest "pure" passer of the greatest QB's I've ever seen in my 30+ years of watching pro football.Rodney Harrison in the beginning of the year said Eli Manning was the best quarterback.

BuffyBlueII
12-01-2012, 01:10 AM
It is amazing that a 2 time SuperBowl MVP that has numerous NY Giant as well as NFL passing records and is without a doubt The Greatest QB in NY Giants history is continually called average to below average and put down by members of his teams fanbase.

For shame.

For shame.

Years from now when Eli Manning retires and is no longer a NY Giant, you folks will be missing him terribly. Count on it.

ashleymarie
12-01-2012, 01:20 AM
It is amazing that a 2 time SuperBowl MVP that has numerous NY Giant as well as NFL passing records and is without a doubt The Greatest QB in NY Giants history is continually called average to below average and put down by members of his teams fanbase.

For shame.

For shame.

Years from now when Eli Manning retires and is no longer a NY Giant, you folks will be missing him terribly. Count on it.

I agree. Eli is sometimes treated on the board here as if he is a red-headed step cousin. I say enjoy his success because his success is our success. I am grateful we have a qb who can get the job done. No offense to anyone.

Giant stuck in Texas
12-01-2012, 02:24 AM
I wish this thread would just die already.....

BuffyBlueII
12-01-2012, 03:26 AM
It is amazing how some folks just wait in the wings for Eli to have some bad games so they can run out and point fingers. It is even more amazing that these folks are NY Giants fans. Sure Eli Manning is off and is still not fully out of his slump yet but we are 7-4 and he has thrown for almost 3,000 yards. He is almost out of his slump and will soon light it up. Count on it.I find it even more amazing that people question Eli's toughness. The guy has never missed a game and can take a beating and still excel better than any other QB in football. Folks need to pay attention and appreciate that Eli Manning is our QB.

Rat_bastich
12-01-2012, 04:01 AM
Rodney Harrison in the beginning of the year said Eli Manning was the best quarterback.

I saw an interview with him the other day and he still said the same thing. Pretty high praise from a defensive back.

Dline83
12-01-2012, 08:55 AM
This is why you are a ****. Quote me on this comment or shut the **** up.



I brought up the the recent throws to Hyno and Ahamd and asked you to comment. Here's your chance.




I'm going to ignore the nonsense in this quote and address Brees last night. How many times has Brees played like that?



You could never put me down son.




Name one football player or coach that believes Eli is a master at QB, and quote him.




I'd probably rank Eli as the lowest "pure" passer of the greatest QB's I've ever seen in my 30+ years of watching pro football.

Bree's has had a few games just in this season where he has made bad throws, and bad decisions. He made a throw to the rb that was a bullet and was dropped and he was way shot of an open wr when he had a clean pocket to throw from. I've made multiple posts pointing this out...

Before the game Rodney Harrison said he thought Eli was the best qb in the game. Tom Coughlin has said Eli is elite, and almost every player when asked about Manning says complimentary things.

I just don't understand some of the things you state. Why do you view Eli as the lowest pure passer of the greats in the last 30 years, once again it seems like your making kind of a reach there, and either way he is still playing, what would you have said about Simms after 8 seasons?

chasjay
12-01-2012, 09:29 AM
When I think of any football player, be it QB or some other position, the word "elite" never comes to my mind. That includes Eli. To me, Eli is the very successful QB for the NFL team I've rooted for my whole life - and my "home boy" to boot. But I always seem to react when someone tries to state as fact that he is not elite. I would never start a conversation or thread to convince anyone that Eli is an "elite" QB, but I do argue the case that there is no solid ground for saying that he isn't.

Not that anyone, except me, is interested in all that.

Dline83
12-01-2012, 09:41 AM
Bree's has had a few games just in this season where he has made bad throws, and bad decisions. He made a throw to the rb that was a bullet and was dropped and he was way shot of an open wr when he had a clean pocket to throw from. I've made multiple posts pointing this out...

Before the game Rodney Harrison said he thought Eli was the best qb in the game. Tom Coughlin has said Eli is elite, and almost every player when asked about Manning says complimentary things.

I just don't understand some of the things you state. Why do you view Eli as the lowest pure passer of the greats in the last 30 years, once again it seems like your making kind of a reach there, and either way he is still playing, what would you have said about Simms after 8 seasons?

Phil Simms has said the Eli and Coughlin are destined for the HOF.

On the final drive in the Super Bowl Manning was 6 of 7 for 74 yards, pretty big game and pretty accurate passing.

Simms is also the guy that said Luck would not be able to make big NFL type throws and said he would quit if Mallet wasn't taken in the first round...he went in the 3rd...

Dan Fouts said after Simms comments that "you can't spell elite without Eli", this is a quote for him:

“You can’t spell elite without Eli,” Fouts said. “The pressure situations that Eli has thrived in over his short career, in my mind, make him an elite quarterback, because that is when you’re judged. How well do you do when the pressure is on, when you’ve got to win the game?

“And all you have to do is look back at his two Super Bowl wins and the way he beat the Patriots. I have to give him a nod and say Eli is elite.”

Simms had also called other qb not elite, like Marino...he is making me confused....

“‘Elite,' it's a new word in the football vocabulary. It really is,” he continued. “It's this new thing. I don't remember hearing it 25-30 years ago. With the way it's talked about now, Dan Marino was not elite, Warren Moon was never elite, Dan Fouts was not elite. Even though they went to the Hall of Fame, they're not elite.

Apparently I'm not the only one confused...from USA today:

"So, by that logic, is Manning still a Hall of Famer in Simms' mind?

Seriously, Phil Simms, what are you even saying?"

Here is a comment from Aikman:

"It's easy to say, 'Yeah he won, but ...'" former Dallas quarterback Troy Aikman, who has three titles, said. "When you win a second Super Bowl or multiple Super Bowls, it eliminates a lot of those buts. It puts you in the conversation of the all-time greats and in the conversation for the Hall of Fame."

Not unbiased, but this is from Diehl:

"He's evolved into an unbelievable player," Diehl said. "His knowledge and grasp of the offense, the way he handles things, that's just from a football standpoint, let alone his leadership."

Diehl told a story about how, early in Manning's career, people outside of the Giants' organization would get flustered at Manning's unflappable, even emotionless, demeanor. He was one direction -- down the middle -- whether the Giants won or they lost, whether he played well or like a dog.

"People said, 'Oh he's so calm under pressure,' then something doesn't go right and he's the same way, and it's, 'Oh my God, how come he doesn't show emotion?'" Diehl said.

"It's just been unbelievable to see the way he's improved, the grasp of the offense, the audibles, the sacks, the recognition of blitzes, but most importantly the leadership," Diehl added. "He's stepped up tremendously for this football team and our offense. When the game is on the line, he wants the ball in his hands. It's just been awesome."

Jacoby Jones said:

"Number one? Best player in the NFL?" Jones said. "You know what, I'm going to give hats off to Eli Manning."

Michael,Boley:

Giants linebacker Michael Boley: "We have the best quarterback in the league. It's never over."

Josh Wilson:

"Right now, (Manning) is (the best late-game quarterback in the league)," Redskins cornerback Josh Wilson said. "He won this one."

Davon House:

"That's what kind of separates a good secondary and a great secondary," second-year cornerback Davon House said. "How do you play against the best guys in the league?"

Rob Ryan:

“He does a great job. He’s got an unbelievable touch. He will stand in there in the face of a damn hurricane and throw the ball. He’s really tough. We’re looking forward to this challenge. We’ve played some great quarterbacks during the year and this guy is no exception. He’s really playing well. He’s in that elite group for sure.”

I would say that's a pretty good sampling...

GameTime
12-01-2012, 11:47 AM
Rodney Harrison in the beginning of the year said Eli Manning was the best quarterback.

he said again last week too....

jomo
12-01-2012, 11:49 AM
...........as I said about 40 pages ago, this thread has some amazing legs given the fact that it is more or less a retread topic.
Go Blue!!

Rudyy
12-01-2012, 11:51 AM
he said again last week too....Oh, I missed that.

GameTime
12-01-2012, 11:52 AM
...........as I said about 40 pages ago, this thread has some amazing legs given the fact that it is more or less a retread topic.
Go Blue!!

no doubt...many things have been said over and over....
itsf fun to read. Several pages back I called it the HOUSEWIVES OF THE GIANTS MESSAGE BOARDS.....HOGMB......LOL

ShakeandBake
12-01-2012, 12:00 PM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLFourTTMuKGgkYlg6LDXgZtGE6wWPs q3-xaLvG433UPC9ZPiK

GameTime
12-01-2012, 12:01 PM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLFourTTMuKGgkYlg6LDXgZtGE6wWPs q3-xaLvG433UPC9ZPiK
Spiderman is a definitely an Elite Superhero......

giantsfan420
12-01-2012, 12:03 PM
Phil Simms has said the Eli and Coughlin are destined for the HOF.

On the final drive in the Super Bowl Manning was 6 of 7 for 74 yards, pretty big game and pretty accurate passing.

Simms is also the guy that said Luck would not be able to make big NFL type throws and said he would quit if Mallet wasn't taken in the first round...he went in the 3rd...

Dan Fouts said after Simms comments that "you can't spell elite without Eli", this is a quote for him:

“You can’t spell elite without Eli,” Fouts said. “The pressure situations that Eli has thrived in over his short career, in my mind, make him an elite quarterback, because that is when you’re judged. How well do you do when the pressure is on, when you’ve got to win the game?

“And all you have to do is look back at his two Super Bowl wins and the way he beat the Patriots. I have to give him a nod and say Eli is elite.”

Simms had also called other qb not elite, like Marino...he is making me confused....

“‘Elite,' it's a new word in the football vocabulary. It really is,” he continued. “It's this new thing. I don't remember hearing it 25-30 years ago. With the way it's talked about now, Dan Marino was not elite, Warren Moon was never elite, Dan Fouts was not elite. Even though they went to the Hall of Fame, they're not elite.

Apparently I'm not the only one confused...from USA today:

"So, by that logic, is Manning still a Hall of Famer in Simms' mind?

Seriously, Phil Simms, what are you even saying?"

Here is a comment from Aikman:

"It's easy to say, 'Yeah he won, but ...'" former Dallas quarterback Troy Aikman, who has three titles, said. "When you win a second Super Bowl or multiple Super Bowls, it eliminates a lot of those buts. It puts you in the conversation of the all-time greats and in the conversation for the Hall of Fame."

Not unbiased, but this is from Diehl:

"He's evolved into an unbelievable player," Diehl said. "His knowledge and grasp of the offense, the way he handles things, that's just from a football standpoint, let alone his leadership."

Diehl told a story about how, early in Manning's career, people outside of the Giants' organization would get flustered at Manning's unflappable, even emotionless, demeanor. He was one direction -- down the middle -- whether the Giants won or they lost, whether he played well or like a dog.

"People said, 'Oh he's so calm under pressure,' then something doesn't go right and he's the same way, and it's, 'Oh my God, how come he doesn't show emotion?'" Diehl said.

"It's just been unbelievable to see the way he's improved, the grasp of the offense, the audibles, the sacks, the recognition of blitzes, but most importantly the leadership," Diehl added. "He's stepped up tremendously for this football team and our offense. When the game is on the line, he wants the ball in his hands. It's just been awesome."

Jacoby Jones said:

"Number one? Best player in the NFL?" Jones said. "You know what, I'm going to give hats off to Eli Manning."

Michael,Boley:

Giants linebacker Michael Boley: "We have the best quarterback in the league. It's never over."

Josh Wilson:

"Right now, (Manning) is (the best late-game quarterback in the league)," Redskins cornerback Josh Wilson said. "He won this one."

Davon House:

"That's what kind of separates a good secondary and a great secondary," second-year cornerback Davon House said. "How do you play against the best guys in the league?"

Rob Ryan:

“He does a great job. He’s got an unbelievable touch. He will stand in there in the face of a damn hurricane and throw the ball. He’s really tough. We’re looking forward to this challenge. We’ve played some great quarterbacks during the year and this guy is no exception. He’s really playing well. He’s in that elite group for sure.”

I would say that's a pretty good sampling...

did u write this urself? thats a damn good write up if u did. i think its a little unfair to simms, but its answered some of the questions here...

Flip Empty
12-01-2012, 12:09 PM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLFourTTMuKGgkYlg6LDXgZtGE6wWPs q3-xaLvG433UPC9ZPiK
http://i.imgur.com/inHsU.jpg

BParcells777
12-01-2012, 12:17 PM
played GRUMPY......Then Wellington cut him loose

He respects Eli but has no love for the Giants organization

He seems to like New England (his old DC- Bellicheck).....He also seems to like SFO, Pittsburg, Jets

If he does like a particular NFL team (as is a fan) I'd like to know who it is


Get over his comments about Eli..........Phil wants us to flop back to the mediocrity he found us in when he reported to his 1st Giants training camp.

Geroge, Parcells, Bellicheck and Phil pulled us out of a 20 year tailspin.......he likes those Giants teams of the 80's

He is our less vocal "Joe Namath".......Phil cannot relate to the present day Giants and likely does not have a close friend in the entire organization except perhaps John Mara, who's Dad (deceased) stepped in and challenged his uncle Wellington to turn over control to real football people- Roselle settles the family feud by recommending George Young to take over football operations.........George drafted LT and Phil promoted Parcells and the rest is history

Dline83
12-01-2012, 12:24 PM
did u write this urself? thats a damn good write up if u did. i think its a little unfair to simms, but its answered some of the questions here...

I put it together this morning, there are a bunch more comments out there, but I got tired of searching...

jomo
12-01-2012, 12:35 PM
no doubt...many things have been said over and over....
itsf fun to read. Several pages back I called it the HOUSEWIVES OF THE GIANTS MESSAGE BOARDS.....HOGMB......LOLIt is funny to read. I am always interested in which threads generate energy. That is where the divide is greatest and the passion runs deepest. Even if the topic doesn't interest me, it clearly stokes the fire in many. That's what makes it very interesting to me.

GameTime
12-01-2012, 12:37 PM
Eli is more polarizing then Tebow......lol

bigjeep
12-01-2012, 01:28 PM
...........as I said about 40 pages ago, this thread has some amazing legs given the fact that it is more or less a retread topic.
Go Blue!!

As I said 85 pages ago, ah hmm! I forgot!

Eliscruzzz
12-01-2012, 07:35 PM
It is amazing how some folks just wait in the wings for Eli to have some bad games so they can run out and point fingers. It is even more amazing that these folks are NY Giants fans. Sure Eli Manning is off and is still not fully out of his slump yet but we are 7-4 and he has thrown for almost 3,000 yards. He is almost out of his slump and will soon light it up. Count on it.I find it even more amazing that people question Eli's toughness. The guy has never missed a game and can take a beating and still excel better than any other QB in football. Folks need to pay attention and appreciate that Eli Manning is our QB.this^^^^

mike kennedy
12-01-2012, 10:58 PM
Could we kill this post?

Eliscruzzz
12-01-2012, 11:01 PM
Could we kill this post?It was almost dead until....

giantcarll
12-02-2012, 11:43 AM
Simms seems to be scorned after Hostettler took over and won that superbowl.Then shortly after that he was cut.What makes it worse is when Eli won 2 superbowls and Simms is saying he is not an elite QB.Not to mention Eli just broke his record for most touchdown passes.Also has anybody realize that after Simms was cut he takes on being an announcer for channel 2 I believe for the Jets games.Maybe channel 2 paid him more (dont know) but being an ex Giant why wouldnt you want to announce giant games (dont know if he was approach with it) but it just seems as if he didnt want anything to do with them after he left.Just my opinion.