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View Full Version : Is lack of leadership on defense the problem?



WR4Life
12-20-2011, 05:33 PM
I can't say that I ever remember the defense looking so glum and depressed on the sideline when Strahan was here. Does the lack of heart stem from not having a leader like Strahan on the defensive side of the ball? I know a lack of leadership isn't everything but I can't say I have ever seen a defense give up so easily when the tables are turned. What do you guys think?

Weygand
12-20-2011, 06:07 PM
I can't say that I ever remember the defense looking so glum and depressed on the sideline when Strahan was here. Does the lack of heart stem from not having a leader like Strahan on the defensive side of the ball? I know a lack of leadership isn't everything but I can't say I have ever seen a defense give up so easily when the tables are turned. What do you guys think?

I agree.

JesseJames
12-20-2011, 06:12 PM
I agree there is something really wrong with this defense but what concerns me is these coaches have to see during practice that these guys do not know their assignments, I can't believe they know their plays in practice and forget them during a game. No, these coaches know damn well the players are not ready to play, if not they are in the wrong business..

dave56dj
12-20-2011, 06:13 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.

jakegibbs
12-20-2011, 06:17 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.


GB had all those same injuries last year & they won it all. JR should have been more active bringing in replacement to replace the replacements... I guess.

How did GB replace all their replacements last year? The template was already in place for JR to follow what GB did last year but he failed is all I can think of.

gfanblue
12-20-2011, 06:22 PM
it's a huge problem. maybe not all of it but definitely a big factor. guys like pierce strahan madison. I think lavar arrington if he never got hurt and mitchell if we resigned him could've been great leaders of the defense. we had a few in the past we need leaders for the present

dave56dj
12-20-2011, 06:25 PM
Im sorry GB had the same injuries - what are you talking about? Were they injured? Yes - was it to the same players - NOPE. Was mathews out almost at all last year - and how much time did woodson miss? What about Raji? Yes they were hurt and got through it - yes injuries happen but to believe what the GMEN are going through is normal is assinine. Perhaps the Packers are the exception NOT THE RULE. And perhaps just more talented - but yeah its probably leadership - ha. Cause we all know tuck and osi were not here in 2007 - oh wait.

Weygand
12-20-2011, 06:28 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.

Nice try. Maybe if one of those players listed was a leader (Phillips is probably developing into being a team leader but right now he isn't), that list might mean something.

Phillips missed one game, and you're adding that to your "scientific facts"?

The smart argument along your lines is that leadership comes from continuity...and, save for Eli, there isn't a lot of continuity. This defense is like 11 players and not a team, or that's the way they seem to be playing.

We need another Harry Carson in the worst way right now.

dave56dj
12-20-2011, 06:34 PM
Oh right - its not the fact that we have NO LINEBACKERS other then Boley with experience DUE TO INJURIES - or that we have no CB's DUE TO INJURY (7 on ir but thats exactly what GB HAD - not even close) and tuck cant be a leader, he only has a ring and he doesnt ever bash any other player - but he is hurt and the stats arent there so this must have to do with fire and grit - you must love david eckstein too - or perhaps you blamed eli's face for not leading the offense either - then 07 hit and im sure you changed your tune - sorry the leaders are in place - the players are not - and while we're at it grant is a helluva bigger presence then phillips when it comes to pure Leadership. But its probably about smells and colors.

Weygand
12-20-2011, 06:42 PM
its probably about smells and colors.

No, it's more about not getting run up and down the field like a scout team. The personnel on the defensive unit don't really scare anyone. Well, apart from Giants fans.

SweetZombieJesus
12-20-2011, 06:43 PM
Well, it certainly doesn't help but we had these season collapses and big game no-shows even when the team had leadership.

You don't remember the defense looking so glum and depressed when Strahan was here? Tons of times under Fassel and Reeves. Hell wasn't Strahan grabbing someone by the neck in a playoff meltdown to the Vikes? Even under Coughlin, think back to that 2005 pasting at home in the opening of the playoffs -- 23-0 Panthers. Or the year before when they lost 8 of their last 11.

OrangeGiant
12-20-2011, 06:44 PM
Yes, there is a lack of leadership on the defense, there is no question about that. However, if anyone thinks the injuries aren't having an effect, your crazy. Not only have key starters been hurt, but also key backups have been hurt as well. The secondary has been decimated by injuries. Were starting a rookie and a guy who was sitting at home at linebacker. Aaron Ross is not a cornerback and Prince is not ready, obviously. Tuck is a shell of himself due to his injuries and Osi isn't even on the field. </P>


Does anyone really think this hasn't had an effect on the defense? Really? There are guys playing out of position and guys who simply are not ready to be playing major roles that have been forced to do so. Why do you think Prince got pulled from the game Sunday? </P>


Does anyone honestly think this defense would be this bad if these guys were on the field? Even half of them? </P>

SweetZombieJesus
12-20-2011, 06:45 PM
^ This kind of collapse has happened in 7 out of Coughlin's 8 years.

Is it injury ever year?

The players have changed since 2004 but the result is the same.

Dig deeper.

Firenugget
12-20-2011, 06:47 PM
Lack of defense is the problem. We have like 2-3 guys giving their all and a bunch of bums around them.

OrangeGiant
12-20-2011, 06:50 PM
All I know is THIS year, if anyone thinks all the injuries haven't had an effect on the poor play on that side of the ball, then you are naive. There is a depth chart for a reason. When not only the starters, but the backups at key positions get hurt and you have to bring in guys off the street and start rookies what do you expect? </P>

JMFP2
12-20-2011, 06:51 PM
Leadership matters.....it's how the Giants beat a more talented Bills team with a backup QB.

Fact is, there has been a serious leadership void on defense since Strahan and AP left.

RoanokeFan
12-20-2011, 06:52 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.

Nice try. Maybe if one of those players listed was a leader (Phillips is probably developing into being a team leader but right now he isn't), that list might mean something.

Phillips missed one game, and you're adding that to your "scientific facts"?

The smart argument along your lines is that leadership comes from continuity...and, save for Eli, there isn't a lot of continuity. This defense is like 11 players and not a team, or that's the way they seem to be playing.

We need another Harry Carson in the worst way right now.

I think you misunderstood the point, or maybe I do. Look at the list again; it's tough to lead when the faces keep changing, Leadership is an ongoing process, not a hit and miss exercise. You can't expect the troops to follow when the same players are never in front of you or, as in some cases, come in and go out and came back in. When that happens you have to keep going back to square one leaving the familiar faces to listen to what they already know. That's boring, so they tune out.

There really is no ONE answer.

Firenugget
12-20-2011, 06:56 PM
All I know is THIS year, if anyone thinks all the injuries haven't had an effect on the poor play on that side of the ball, then you are naive. There is a depth chart for a reason. When not only the starters, but the backups at key positions get hurt and you have to bring in guys off the street and start rookies what do you expect? </p>

GB won a SB last year with TONS of injuries. So there goes that logic.

gmen0820
12-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.Ding ding ding!

Firenugget
12-20-2011, 07:05 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.Ding ding ding!

I love how people include the scrubs to bolster this list and add game by game injuries.

The fact is there's ONLY two (maybe I'll give you Goff as 3..Thats fair) injuries that really have hurt us. T2 and Osi (and like I said, Goff). The 1-3 week injuries happen all over the league to everyone, every year.

Thats it. I'm sorry but other teams have lost more and done more.

OrangeGiant
12-20-2011, 07:06 PM
All I know is THIS year, if anyone thinks all the injuries haven't had an effect on the poor play on that side of the ball, then you are naive. There is a depth chart for a reason. When not only the starters, but the backups at key positions get hurt and you have to bring in guys off the street and start rookies what do you expect? </P>




GB won a SB last year with TONS of injuries. So there goes that logic.
</P>


I know they had injuries, but I don't believe they had as many key players go down for the year on defense as the Giant have had this year- again not just starters but backups as well? How many guys have gone on IR that weren't even starters on defense but backups? How many players in the secondary have been hurt this year? And linebacker? All I'm saying is it has an effect, how can anyone deny that? It's not the only reason, but its a big reason.</P>

RoanokeFan
12-20-2011, 07:06 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.

Add Ballard who is likely out for the season with a PCL injury

Firenugget
12-20-2011, 07:09 PM
All I know is THIS year, if anyone thinks all the injuries haven't had an effect on the poor play on that side of the ball, then you are naive. There is a depth chart for a reason. When not only the starters, but the backups at key positions get hurt and you have to bring in guys off the street and start rookies what do you expect? </p>




GB won a SB last year with TONS of injuries. So there goes that logic.
</p>


I know they had injuries, but I don't believe they had as many key players go down for the year on defense as the Giant have had this year- again not just starters but backups as well? How many guys have gone on IR that weren't even starters on defense but backups? How many players in the secondary have been hurt this year? And linebacker? All I'm saying is it has an effect, how can anyone deny that? It's not the only reason, but its a big reason.</p>

They had 16 players on IR and 2 more were injured during the SB.

OrangeGiant
12-20-2011, 07:09 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors. Osi - out more then half the year T2 - out the whole year Goff - Out the whole year Witherspoon - out the year Coe - Out the year Phillips - missed one game Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year. Sintim - missed all year Johnson - missed all year Tryon - missed majority of year Boley - missed 3 games But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.Ding ding ding!

I love how people include the scrubs to bolster this list and add game by game injuries.

The fact is there's ONLY two (maybe I'll give you Goff as 3..Thats fair) injuries that really have hurt us. T2 and Osi (and like I said, Goff). The 1-3 week injuries happen all over the league to everyone, every year.

Thats it. I'm sorry but other teams have lost more and done more.
</P>


The "scrubs" you are referring to are the backups!!! Who is there to replace them? Chase Blackburn? I love the guy, but really? Prince Amukamara? We've seen he's not ready. Aaron Ross shouldn't even be playing cornerback in the NFL, he's terrible. Come on man, it's had an effect.</P>

RoanokeFan
12-20-2011, 07:09 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.Ding ding ding!

I love how people include the scrubs to bolster this list and add game by game injuries.

The fact is there's ONLY two (maybe I'll give you Goff as 3..Thats fair) injuries that really have hurt us. T2 and Osi (and like I said, Goff). The 1-3 week injuries happen all over the league to everyone, every year.

Thats it. I'm sorry but other teams have lost more and done more.


In order for your point to be valid, you'd have to list the Packers' players who were on IR. Saying "other teams have lost more and done more" is great rhetoric, but it's also hollow rhetoric."

You don't consider Tuck's absence, both physical and mental, a major loss this season?

bigblue58
12-20-2011, 07:17 PM
I can't say that I ever remember the defense looking so glum and depressed on the sideline when Strahan was here. Does the lack of heart stem from not having a leader like Strahan on the defensive side of the ball? I know a lack of leadership isn't everything but I can't say I have ever seen a defense give up so easily when the tables are turned. What do you guys think?

Lack of intelligent game plan is the Defense's problem! Fewell needs to abandon that stupid Zone ....play man.... and rush 6!
Too many different game plans for different QB's which is stupid.
Game plan every week as though every QB is Michael Vick....and scrub QB's like Rex Grossman won't end up looking like Dan Marino!!

Firenugget
12-20-2011, 07:23 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.Ding ding ding!

I love how people include the scrubs to bolster this list and add game by game injuries.

The fact is there's ONLY two (maybe I'll give you Goff as 3..Thats fair) injuries that really have hurt us. T2 and Osi (and like I said, Goff). The 1-3 week injuries happen all over the league to everyone, every year.

Thats it. I'm sorry but other teams have lost more and done more.


In order for your point to be valid, you'd have to list the Packers' players who were on IR. Saying "other teams have lost more and done more" is great rhetoric, but it's also hollow rhetoric."

You don't consider Tuck's absence, both physical and mental, a major loss this season?


Yes I do...Him, Osi and I said I'll include Goff. Now to your other comment here's a list of IR packers. **Edit, sorry you're right I didn't include Tuck originally...Was thinking T2.

There's plenty of scrubs but enough starters/contributors to be comparable to what we've dealt with for sure. The LBers/Finley/Grant were the worst of it. That's quite a bit and I fail to see how losing over 1/4 of your roster and still winning a SB is "hollow rhetoric". It's reality.


#16 - Justin Harrell (DE): Jamal Reynolds must love how much of a
bust Harrell has become since it let's Reynolds off the hook. With
Brian Brohm no longer on the roster, Harrell stands as general manager
Ted Thompson's worst draft pick currently still associated with the
Packers.



#15 - Josh Bell (CB): Gave up the touchdown to Mike Wallace as
time expired to give the Steelers a 37-36 victory over the Packers the
last time the two teams met in Pittsburgh in 2009. Bell didn't even
make the opening day 53-man roster this year but the Packers saw enough
in Bell to put him on injured reserve as opposed to reaching an injury
settlement.



#14 - Anthony Levine (S): There are too many able bodied safeties
(Bigby, Burnett, Bush, Collins, Martin, Peprah, and Smith) on the
roster for Levine to have a realistic shot of wearing the Green and Gold
on Sundays anytime soon.



#13 - Spencer Havner (TE): According to various sources, Havner
thought he was the best tight end on the roster in training camp.
Havner was obviously wrong because the Packer kept four other tight ends
(Crabtree, Finley, Lee, and Quarless) ahead of him. If healthy, Havner
has a chance to make the roster in 2011 because he is good on special
teams and can fill in at linebacker in a pinch.



#12 - Anthony Smith (S): It still perplexes me why Smith was cut
in favor of Aaron Rouse at the end of the 2009 training camp. The only
way Smith returns to the Packers in 2011 is if Bigby, Martin, and Peprah
are not on the roster.



#11 - Brady Poppinga (OLB): Much like safety, the Packers have a
ton of young outside linebackers on the roster (Briggs, Francois, Jones,
Walden, and Zombo) so Poppinga's time in Green Bay has most likely come
to an end. Furthermore, Poppinga looks better suited to play outside
linebacker in a 4-3 defense as opposed to a 3-4 defense. If Poppinga is
healthy in 2011 he will be playing somewhere else in a 4-3 defense.



#10 - Marshall Newhouse (G/T): The Packers see Newhouse as a
developmental prospect with a chance to be their left tackle of the
future. With how well Chad Clifton played in 2010, the only way
Newhouse sees the field in 2011 is if the Packers suffer a number of
injuries along the offensive line. That means 2012 looks like the year
for Newhouse to break into the starting lineup.



#9 - Derrick Martin (S): Much like Jarrett Bush, Martin is a
special teams ace that is worth a roster spot for that reason alone
despite being a liability on defense. Martin has a chance to make the
roster in 2011 but it might come down to whether the Packers want to
keep Bigby or Martin. If I were in charge, Martin would get the roster
spot over Bigby.



#8 - Brandon Chillar (MLB): When the Packers signed Chillar to a
four-year extension that runs through the 2013 season he looked like a
perfect combo linebacker and special teams contributor with a secure
roster spot. Chillar struggled at outside linebacker in training camp
so he can only contribute at middle linebacker and on special teams.
With the emergence of Desmond Bishop at middle linebacker, Chillar will
have to show ability at outside linebacker in 2011 or possibly look for a
new home in 2011.



#7 - Mark Tauscher (RT): The Packers asked Tauscher to rehab in
Green Bay and help mentor rookie offensive tackle Bryan Bulaga.
Tauscher complied but might have helped Bulaga too much because Bulaga
owns the right tackle spot no matter how healthy Tauscher is at the
start of 2011. With a hefty base salary in 2011, Tauscher might be
informally asked to retire so the Packers are not forced to cut him.



#6 - Morgan Burnett (S): The emergence of Charlie Peprah at
safety made up for the loss of promising rookie Morgan Burnett. In 2011
Burnett has to prove that he can stay healthy before the Packers hand
him the starting safety spot next to Nick Collins.



#5 - Michael Neal (DE): Showed flashes of being a beast along the
defensive line but injuries claimed most of Neal's rookie season. Nose
tackle B.J. Raji struggled with injuries in his rookie season and
flourished this year in his second season in the NFL. Hopefully Neal
can follow a similar path and become a force along the defensive line in
2011.



#4 - Brad Jones (OLB): The emergence of Erik Walden and Frank
Zombo shows that whoever lines up at the other outside linebacker spot
opposite of Clay Matthews will most likely thrive. When healthy, Jones
is a better option than Walden or Zombo but all three players struggled
with injuries in 2010. Unless the Packers use an early draft choice on
an outside linebacker in the 2011 NFL Draft, whoever is healthiest in
2011 deserves a chance to start opposite Matthews.



#3 - Nick Barnett (MLB): Suffering a season ending injury for the
second time in three years has called into question how Barnett fits in
long-term in Green Bay. Barnett is signed through the 2012 season with
high base salaries of $6 million in 2011 and $6.5 million in 2012.
According to various talent evaluators, Barnett does not have the right
body type to contribute at outside linebacker. That may be true but the
Packers play more exotic defensive packages than the standard 3-4
defense. As a result, Barnett deserves the chance to make the 2011
opening day roster.



#2 - Ryan Grant (RB): The Packers lost Grant for the season in
Week 1 in Philadelphia. The Packersí inability to generate a rushing
game in 2010 after they lost Grant for the season shows how valuable
Grant is to the Packers' rushing offense. The zone blocking scheme the
Packers use favors a running back that makes one cut and hits the hole.
Ironically it wasn't till the Packers re-visited Philadelphia in the
playoffs that they put together another impressive game on the ground
when rookie running back James Starks set a Packer rookie playoff
rushing record. The running back depth chart going into 2011 should be:
Ryan Grant, James Starks, 2011 draft pick, and John Kuhn. That would
leave Brandon Jackson off the roster. I know Jackson has improved his
blocking which makes him a good 3rd down back but Jackson showed this
season that he is not a starting NFL running back.



#1 - Jermichael Finley (TE): Too tall to cover with a defensive
back and too fast to cover with a linebacker, Finley is a physical freak
that has a chance to be a real NFL superstar. The Packers geared their
2010 offense around Finley so when he was lost for the season it took
the Packers a few weeks to get back in rhythm. It will be interesting
to see how the Packers re-integrate Finley in their offensive scheme in
2011.
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WR4Life
12-20-2011, 07:24 PM
I should clarify what I meant. Obviously leadership doesn't explain why the defense is playing so poorly. I'm talking about the lack of fire and the lack of intensity out of everyone except JPP. I feel as if every single player has the same sorry look on the sideline when they are down. I feel like I don't see any passion or fire. I don't see the will. Have you ever seen Ray Lewis or Brian Dawkins let their team look like a bunch of depressed morons when they are getting beat? Where is the fire? Why aren't these guys getting amped up and looking to go back out there and kick some ***? It seems as if they just give up. I want to know if this is because of a lack of leadership or is it because our defense consists of a bunch of bums that have no passion for the game.

bigblue58
12-20-2011, 07:34 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.Ding ding ding!

I love how people include the scrubs to bolster this list and add game by game injuries.

The fact is there's ONLY two (maybe I'll give you Goff as 3..Thats fair) injuries that really have hurt us. T2 and Osi (and like I said, Goff). The 1-3 week injuries happen all over the league to everyone, every year.

Thats it. I'm sorry but other teams have lost more and done more.


The Packers may have won a SB last year with a boatload of injuries, but if you look at it from another viewpoint, when they got them back this season, they went undefeated for 14 weeks!
Saying that "INJURIES ARE NOT AN EXCUSE" is second only to "IF THE SEASON ENDED TODAY" on the idiotic quote meter!
Only a moron could look at the devastating number of injuries the Giants had on D this year and claim it wasn't a factor to how the defense has played.
Hell...if starters were that easy to replace, there wouldn't be a designation for starters and back-ups on a depth chart.

OrangeGiant
12-20-2011, 07:35 PM
I think this actually hurts your arguement. How many of these guys were even going to see significant playing time? Did you even read the comments on them? Plus 3 were on offense. Special teams guys, guysthat were going to struggle to make the roster, and oh Nick Barnett.</P>


These were not guys that were going to seriously affect the defense, not even close. </P>

OrangeGiant
12-20-2011, 07:37 PM
I think this actually hurts your arguement. How many of these guys were even going to see significant playing time? Did you even read the comments on them? Plus 3 were on offense. Special teams guys, guysthat were going to struggle to make the roster, and oh Nick Barnett.</P>


These were not guys that were going to seriously affect the defense, not even close. </P>


</P>


Sorry my bad- 5 offense players, not 3. Sheesh.</P>

Firenugget
12-20-2011, 07:44 PM
I think this actually hurts your arguement. How many of these guys were even going to see significant playing time? Did you even read the comments on them? Plus 3 were on offense. Special teams guys, guysthat were going to struggle to make the roster, and oh Nick Barnett.</p>


These were not guys that were going to seriously affect the defense, not even close. </p>


</p>


Sorry my bad- 5 offense players, not 3. Sheesh.</p>

LOL sooo then you agree that losing 5 starters/guys who will contribute isn't an excuse? Because we lost 3-4.

That's my entire point. It's time to bury the injury excuse. Injuries happen to every single team, every single year. Our complete suckage has to do with alot more than injuries and in my personal opinion it starts with Fewell and his bozo game planning and ends with guys just plain old not playing good football.

gumby742
12-20-2011, 08:20 PM
^ This kind of collapse has happened in 7 out of Coughlin's 8 years.

Is it injury ever year?

The players have changed since 2004 but the result is the same.

Dig deeper.


Bump.

JesseJames
12-21-2011, 11:38 AM
you guys really think leadership will suddenly make us better when we rush 3 in an obvious passing situation and the guys playing back forget their assignments and miss tackles and our pass rush simply disappears when needed. No its a lot more than leadership..IMO

yoeddy
12-21-2011, 11:54 AM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.


GB had all those same injuries last year & they won it all. JR should have been more active bringing in replacement to replace the replacements... I guess.

How did GB replace all their replacements last year? The template was already in place for JR to follow what GB did last year but he failed is all I can think of.

GB was 10-6 last year and barely made the playoffs based on a tie-breaker. This year, without the injuries, they were on track to go undefeated. They lose Greg Jennings to injury and lose their first game of the season...

RoanokeFan
12-21-2011, 12:04 PM
you guys really think leadership will suddenly make us better when we rush 3 in an obvious passing situation and the guys playing back forget their assignments and miss tackles and our pass rush simply disappears when needed. No its a lot more than leadership..IMO

Leadership is just one component, but it's a component we don't have on the field.

OrangeGiant
12-21-2011, 12:17 PM
I think this actually hurts your arguement. How many of these guys were even going to see significant playing time? Did you even read the comments on them? Plus 3 were on offense. Special teams guys, guysthat were going to struggle to make the roster, and oh Nick Barnett.</P>


These were not guys that were going to seriously affect the defense, not even close. </P>


</P>


Sorry my bad- 5 offense players, not 3. Sheesh.</P>




LOL sooo then you agree that losing 5 starters/guys who will contribute isn't an excuse? Because we lost 3-4.

That's my entire point. It's time to bury the injury excuse. Injuries happen to every single team, every single year. Our complete suckage has to do with alot more than injuries and in my personal opinion it starts with Fewell and his bozo game planning and ends with guys just plain old not playing good football.
</P>


What? No, I don't agree that losing 5 starters isn't an excuse. My point is the guys GB lost on defense last year, as proved in your list, were NOT major contributors to the defense, except for Barnett. Oh, and he's no longer on the team so what does that tell you. My god we've lost more than 3 or 4 players that would have played. TT, Goff, Osi and include Tuck as he';s playing at 50% or less were just the start. Look at the entire secondary for god sake. Its WHO you lose, and at what position those injuries areatthat matters. And if not only the starters got hurt, but their backups. So GB lost a bunch of guys who were special teamers, rookies, and guys who are not even on the roster anymore. Thats not a starting MLB , starting and best corner, (and all the backups) their best pass rusher when he's healthy in Osi(although JPP is changing that). Look at the projected starting defense at the start of the season and who is on the field now. There are guys playing out of position, and guys playing who frankly shouldn't even be on the field.</P>


I give up on this arguement, it's pointless. How you can say that the injuries don't matter at all is silly. Ok then, if it doesn't matter who plays on defense, lets just cut the startersand play rookies, bring in guys off the street, and journeymen who we can pay the minimum to. Oh, wait we are already playing rookies, and guys off the street on defense. So were all set then.</P>

Gianthunter
12-21-2011, 12:21 PM
Talent can mitigate some deficiencys. So far the only talent rising to the top is JPP.

Kruunch
12-21-2011, 12:23 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.

Unfortunately leadership is what you need most in those kinds of circumstances.

The injuries are indicative of why we can't the better teams in the league ... leadership is why we can't stop a dog like Washington.

Combine the two and you have your 2011 NY Giants Defense.

With a sprinkling of crappy DC on top.

YATittle1962
12-21-2011, 12:31 PM
Um nope - heres something scientific you can attribute it to rather then smells and colors.

Osi - out more then half the year
T2 - out the whole year
Goff - Out the whole year
Witherspoon - out the year
Coe - Out the year
Phillips - missed one game
Amakumura - Missed more then half the year including preseason
Tuck - Missed 5 games has been nicked all year.
Sintim - missed all year
Johnson - missed all year
Tryon - missed majority of year
Boley - missed 3 games

But its probably leadership and not the 5/6 potential starters out and 6/7 backups too.

Unfortunately leadership is what you need most in those kinds of circumstances.

The injuries are indicative of why we can't the better teams in the league ... leadership is why we can't stop a dog like Washington.

Combine the two and you have your 2011 NY Giants Defense.

With a sprinkling of crappy DC on top.

the problem is the media in NY is so powerful that in a way they assign these "leaders"

they talk about it so much .........and who they mention you would think would be the logical choices.....

but Justin Tuck is just not a leader

the dude was a much better player when he wasnt forced to be this leader....this spokes person for the defense

a leader cannot be appointed .........they just rise out of the earth like lava

when its real you get Michael Strahan

when its forced....its corny like Keith Brooking

myles2424
12-21-2011, 03:25 PM
To answer the heading, yes lack of leadership is a huge problem.....kinda like a parentless child,a school with no teachers,the big brother program w/no big brothers ect....