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rtahsin
11-29-2012, 01:35 PM
So I was watching one of those break down videos on nfl.com where they essentially break down the offensive/defensive plays that stood out during the game. One that I really like was when the Saints ran a play where they get ready to run a screen play, however, its just a decoy to get Jimmy Graham open. The defenders bite and he's wide open.

So here's my question: Can offensive coordinator, seeing a play they like, use a play by other offensive coordinators for example the one I just mentioned or is there an unwritten rule in the nfl that prohibits that. I guess a good argument to this would be if each offensive coordinator patented a play then almost every offense in the league would be very predictable and ineffective. But I'm talking about the really unique and iconic plays that make people say that only so and so coordinator would run that. I'd really love to see KG run that play. Either he already has and I haven't noticed or simply has not.

Would it be something like when back in the 80's Buddy Ryan introduced the 46 defense? That defense was almost exclusively used by him. But then as time progressed and other defensive coordinators saw the effectiveness of it, they accepted it into their repertoire and after a while became a normal defensive formation.

Just a curious question from a football newbie who wants to increase his understanding of football.

ny06
11-29-2012, 01:37 PM
It's a copy cat league.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 01:37 PM
Any coordinator can copy any play he sees.

ShakeandBake
11-29-2012, 01:37 PM
So I was watching one of those break down videos on nfl.com where they essentially break down the offensive/defensive plays that stood out during the game. One that I really like was when the Saints ran a play where they get ready to run a screen play, however, its just a decoy to get Jimmy Graham open. The defenders bite and he's wide open.

So here's my question: Can offensive coordinator, seeing a play they like, use a play by other offensive coordinators for example the one I just mentioned or is there an unwritten rule in the nfl that prohibits that. I guess a good argument to this would be if each offensive coordinator patented a play then almost every offense in the league would be very predictable and ineffective. But I'm talking about the really unique and iconic plays that make people say that only so and so coordinator would run that. I'd really love to see KG run that play. Either he already has and I haven't noticed or simply has not.

Would it be something like when back in the 80's Buddy Ryan introduced the 46 defense? That defense was almost exclusively used by him. But then as time progressed and other defensive coordinators saw the effectiveness of it, they accepted it into their repertoire and after a while became a normal defensive formation.

Just a curious question from a football newbie who wants to increase his understanding of football.

Nope they absolutely can use any plays they see that other teams have utilized.

rtahsin
11-29-2012, 01:56 PM
This makes me think. Why don't we use more screen plays? Is it because our blocking sucks?

BillTheGreek
11-29-2012, 01:59 PM
So I was watching one of those break down videos on nfl.com where they essentially break down the offensive/defensive plays that stood out during the game. One that I really like was when the Saints ran a play where they get ready to run a screen play, however, its just a decoy to get Jimmy Graham open. The defenders bite and he's wide open.

So here's my question: Can offensive coordinator, seeing a play they like, use a play by other offensive coordinators for example the one I just mentioned or is there an unwritten rule in the nfl that prohibits that. I guess a good argument to this would be if each offensive coordinator patented a play then almost every offense in the league would be very predictable and ineffective. But I'm talking about the really unique and iconic plays that make people say that only so and so coordinator would run that. I'd really love to see KG run that play. Either he already has and I haven't noticed or simply has not.

Would it be something like when back in the 80's Buddy Ryan introduced the 46 defense? That defense was almost exclusively used by him. But then as time progressed and other defensive coordinators saw the effectiveness of it, they accepted it into their repertoire and after a while became a normal defensive formation.

Just a curious question from a football newbie who wants to increase his understanding of football.

Just Like all Posters stated, No Patent or Copyright Rights Apply...........Just Like Teams all over use the West coast offense.

example : .WEST COAST OFFENSE OVERVIEW


http://www.westcoastoffense.com/overview.htm

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 02:09 PM
This makes me think. Why don't we use more screen plays? Is it because our blocking sucks?

We used to when we had Tiki Barber (one of the best screen backs of his time). Then when he left, we started throwing more bubble screens (WR screens). Since 2010 we've been a more vertical team.

I wouldn't mind seeing more screens, but they tend to only work really well against aggressive and undisciplined defenses. Many OLBs and DEs in today's NFL can smell a screen a mile away.

rtahsin
11-29-2012, 02:15 PM
We used to when we had Tiki Barber (one of the best screen backs of his time). Then when he left, we started throwing more bubble screens (WR screens). Since 2010 we've been a more vertical team.

I wouldn't mind seeing more screens, but they tend to only work really well against aggressive and undisciplined defenses. Many OLBs and DEs in today's NFL can smell a screen a mile away.I agree but when the Saints use the screen effectively on virtually any team it makes me jealous. Is it maybe because Eli doesn't put enough zip on the ball so the defense doesn't have time to react and the blockers don't have to wait for the ball to get there and just block.

Maybe it's just me but I think if Eli put a little hot sauce on the ball, the screen would be more effective.

nygfanmaybe
11-29-2012, 02:16 PM
I think the ability to sell the screen by the o-line is the key. If they can sell that they are trying to block and getting beat...the screen has a chance because the defender is thinking he is winning the battle and continue to aggressively rush the QB. However, if he makes it too easy and the defender senses this, he will stop rushing and start looking for a back trying to sneak out of the backfield.

Obviously, this is not the case when you run the screen to the WR.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 02:19 PM
I agree but when the Saints use the screen effectively on virtually any team it makes me jealous. Is it maybe because Eli doesn't put enough zip on the ball so the defense doesn't have time to react and the blockers don't have to wait for the ball to get there and just block.

Maybe it's just me but I think if Eli put a little hot sauce on the ball, the screen would be more effective.

Eli doesn't throw the best screen in the world no. Accordingly, Bradshaw isn't the best screen back in the world either (certainly not as good at it as Darren Sproles is).

Also, since we run the ball a bit more, that tends to keep the box a little more congested, making the screen not as productive (and also why we tend to go vertical a lot).

We could block a screen just fine if it were our bread and butter but to have guys do that really well, you usually need to run it more than we do.

Kruunch
11-29-2012, 02:21 PM
I think the ability to sell the screen by the o-line is the key. If they can sell that they are trying to block and getting beat...the screen has a chance because the defender is thinking he is winning the battle and continue to aggressively rush the QB. However, if he makes it too easy and the defender senses this, he will stop rushing and start looking for a back trying to sneak out of the backfield.

Obviously, this is not the case when you run the screen to the WR.

And there is that ... like any misdirection play, a lot of it salesmanship.

rtahsin
11-29-2012, 03:43 PM
Going off in a different direction but what do you guys think the Giants base offensive formation is? I would have to say it's the pro set because I don't see Eli and co using the shotgun formation as frequently.

tomt
11-29-2012, 08:19 PM
I agree but when the Saints use the screen effectively on virtually any team it makes me jealous. Is it maybe because Eli doesn't put enough zip on the ball so the defense doesn't have time to react and the blockers don't have to wait for the ball to get there and just block.

Maybe it's just me but I think if Eli put a little hot sauce on the ball, the screen would be more effective.

Don't know if putting hot sauce on it helps. I see screens as more of a finesse type play, like someone mentioned, designed to take advantage of an overagressive D. My POV is that putting the ball in a spot where the receiver doesn't have to break stride to catch it is critically important. The team that shares MetLife stadium with the Gmen tries to run screens, but their qb is awful at them. Because he's not an accurate passer, his intended receiver has to stop, change direction or otherwise adjust, which slows everything down and allows the D to get back into the play and tackle the poor sap for little or no gain. I see it more as a timing kind of play that relies on accuracy.

With Nicks, Cruz and Hixon, Gmen have legit downfield threats and a qb who can find them. They can pick up yards in large chunks. A different philosophy based on the talent the team has I guess.

SweetZombieJesus
11-30-2012, 10:40 AM
That's how trends start, and as has been said this is a copy cat league.

For example, the Giants were the first team to use a 4-3 defense, it and the general umbrella formation were innovations by Tom Landry as defensive coordinator for the Giants. Everybody used to use 5 down linemen and 2 LBs before that.

A more recent example would be the resurgent popularity of the Wildcat in the last few years.

SweetZombieJesus
11-30-2012, 10:42 AM
We used to when we had Tiki Barber (one of the best screen backs of his time). Then when he left, we started throwing more bubble screens (WR screens). Since 2010 we've been a more vertical team.

I wouldn't mind seeing more screens, but they tend to only work really well against aggressive and undisciplined defenses. Many OLBs and DEs in today's NFL can smell a screen a mile away.

Still I think we need to sprinkle it in, we almost never do it anymore. One of many reasons the offense is predictable. Without using them basically the only deception we have left is the play action... Oh and the draw.

Ruttiger711
11-30-2012, 10:43 AM
So I was watching one of those break down videos on nfl.com where they essentially break down the offensive/defensive plays that stood out during the game. One that I really like was when the Saints ran a play where they get ready to run a screen play, however, its just a decoy to get Jimmy Graham open. The defenders bite and he's wide open.

So here's my question: Can offensive coordinator, seeing a play they like, use a play by other offensive coordinators for example the one I just mentioned or is there an unwritten rule in the nfl that prohibits that. I guess a good argument to this would be if each offensive coordinator patented a play then almost every offense in the league would be very predictable and ineffective. But I'm talking about the really unique and iconic plays that make people say that only so and so coordinator would run that. I'd really love to see KG run that play. Either he already has and I haven't noticed or simply has not.

Would it be something like when back in the 80's Buddy Ryan introduced the 46 defense? That defense was almost exclusively used by him. But then as time progressed and other defensive coordinators saw the effectiveness of it, they accepted it into their repertoire and after a while became a normal defensive formation.

Just a curious question from a football newbie who wants to increase his understanding of football.

This sounds exactly like a play GB used against Detroit a couple of weeks ago to get a Finley TD. It was a great play.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 10:46 AM
Going off in a different direction but what do you guys think the Giants base offensive formation is? I would have to say it's the pro set because I don't see Eli and co using the shotgun formation as frequently.

Not sure what the "pro set" is.

Giants typically run a 21 offense as their base ... 2 TEs, 1 RB, 2 WRs and will often go to 22 or 11/12 (3 receiver set). Giants operate out of shot gun quite a bit.

Kruunch
11-30-2012, 10:47 AM
Still I think we need to sprinkle it in, we almost never do it anymore. One of many reasons the offense is predictable. Without using them basically the only deception we have left is the play action... Oh and the draw.

AB got 59 yards on a screen in the first series against the Packers last Sunday.

And I agree ... I'd like to see Eli run them more (which means he needs develop better touch on his short throws).

rtahsin
12-01-2012, 07:40 PM
Not sure what the "pro set" is.

Giants typically run a 21 offense as their base ... 2 TEs, 1 RB, 2 WRs and will often go to 22 or 11/12 (3 receiver set). Giants operate out of shot gun quite a bit.A pro set, from what I understand, is 2 WR, 1 TE, and 2 back (1 HB, 1FB) set. Apparently, its also called a splitback formation so that might sound familiar to you.

I was playing Madden and when picking this formation it occurred to me that this might be the base offense that Giants use. But I think you're right in that they use the 21 offense as their base.

rtahsin
12-01-2012, 07:48 PM
Not sure what the "pro set" is.

Giants typically run a 21 offense as their base ... 2 TEs, 1 RB, 2 WRs and will often go to 22 or 11/12 (3 receiver set). Giants operate out of shot gun quite a bit.wait...so what would you call an offensive formation that has 3 WR set and 2 backs? Some type of spread offense formation since there are 5 eligible receivers? or would you simply just call it a 3 WR set?

TextureDj
12-01-2012, 08:05 PM
That's how trends start, and as has been said this is a copy cat league.

For example, the Giants were the first team to use a 4-3 defense, it and the general umbrella formation were innovations by Tom Landry as defensive coordinator for the Giants. Everybody used to use 5 down linemen and 2 LBs before that.

A more recent example would be the resurgent popularity of the Wildcat in the last few years.

I guess this was before my time? I dont remember 5 down at any point. I remember in the LT days when we ran the 3-4 we almost always blitzed the two LB, and I think I remember Taylor lining up on the line with his fingers in the dirt sometimes.

What time period are we talking here? Very interesting.

rtahsin
12-01-2012, 08:20 PM
I'm surprised to learn that Tom Landry was the D-coord of the Giants.