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View Full Version : Thoughts on David Baas?



Kruunch
12-12-2012, 09:36 AM
This guy didn't have a stellar first year, SB run aside. The oline has struggled this year in the run game but generally speaking, has been better than last year.

David Baas seems have started to gel with the team. His pass protection is solid. His run blocking is coming along. Our bigger free agents seem to have slow first years (Rolle, Canty, Boley, etc ...) but pick it up and this appears no different now.

What are your thoughts?

Toadofsteel
12-12-2012, 09:38 AM
I'd still want someone younger in the position... someone drafted early.

The only knock I have on JR is that he refuses to draft o-line before the 4th round...

lamas
12-12-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't understand why people are suprised or pessimistic when new players don't have fantastic first seasons. It takes time to learn a playbook. This goes for rookies too.

Usually big name free agents are filling a hole so they have to learn the playbook the hard way (on the field). Mistakes will happen.

The other option would be for coaches to dumb down their schemes for the new players (like we did for Boss in 07), but this has disadvantages too.

PBTimmons
12-12-2012, 09:48 AM
Baas is playing at a serviceable level, finally. But with that said, after this season I think Reese needs to "nuke" the offensive line.

The reasons I feel that way:

1. Our offensive line is below average on a good day. Run blocking especially.
2. Payroll for the Giants offensive line is way above average. Aside from Kevin Boothe, most of these guys are getting paid like Pro-Bowlers.

We are wasting precious cap space on a group of guys that are seriously under-performing.

lamas
12-12-2012, 09:48 AM
I'd still want someone younger in the position... someone drafted early.

The only knock I have on JR is that he refuses to draft o-line before the 4th round...

I don't think he refuses this at all. He is going to draft value above need if at all possible so that's just how it worked out. Also, Beatty was drafted round 2.

RoanokeFan
12-12-2012, 09:57 AM
Baas is playing at a serviceable level, finally. But with that said, after this season I think Reese needs to "nuke" the offensive line. The reasons I feel that way: 1. Our offensive line is below average on a good day. Run blocking especially. 2. Payroll for the Giants offensive line is way above average. Aside from Kevin Boothe, most of these guys are getting paid like Pro-Bowlers. We are wasting precious cap space on a group of guys that are seriously under-performing. That would really be uncharacteristic of the organization. They build on continuity and player development.

PBTimmons
12-12-2012, 10:14 AM
That would really be uncharacteristic of the organization. They build on continuity and player development.

I would* be surprised if Reese doesn't ask Baas to take a pay cut or walk after this season. Same goes for Diehl, either he plays for toast or he IS toast.

These guys will take up 6.5 million each in cap space next season.

[edit]

nhpgiantsfan
12-12-2012, 10:19 AM
I think we are ok on the line with the exception of right tackle.

GameTime
12-12-2012, 10:29 AM
ehh...the line is doing ok but is inconsistent like the rest of the team.

joemorrisforprez
12-12-2012, 10:32 AM
I'd still want someone younger in the position... someone drafted early.

The only knock I have on JR is that he refuses to draft o-line before the 4th round...

I think Beatty was 2nd round, but I agree, next year the offensive line needs to be addressed early....within rounds 1-3.

Most recently, I think Reese wasted that pick on Jernigan....it was like he was forcing a correction on his Sinorice Moss pick by replacing him with Jernigan.

The Giants have a QB in his prime, surrounded by young receivers, and if Wilson continues to develop, this offense is basically begging for the offensive line to be restocked.

I think it was Parcells who said he was always shocked by how quickly a player can go from NFL-capable to over the hill. The point is the Giants can't just wait for players to be past their prime.....they need guys who are pushing the veterans right now, not a few years down the road.....and this goes for pretty much everyone on the offensive line right now.

EliIsTheBaas
12-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Baas has been quite average this year. Everyone saying how bad the line is don't know what they're talking about. While they haven't been the 9ers they've been more than adequate both passing and running. Beatty is having a fine season after an injury plagued 2011. Boothe has been nothing if not solid, while also providing the versatility to play centre if need be. While snee is not the player he used to be, he has rebounded quite nicely after a mediocre 2011 campaign. Locklear has been very steady in pass pro in limited action. And while everyone's boy dave diehl isn't about to go the pro bowl this year, he's been more than serviceable at RT, limiting the amount of pressure he gives up.

Flip Empty
12-12-2012, 10:40 AM
I would* be surprised if Reese doesn't ask Baas to take a pay cut or walk after this season. Same goes for Diehl, either he plays for toast or he IS toast.

These guys will take up 6.5 million each in cap space next season.

[edit]
Baas isn't going anywhere, the cap hit would be to large. Same with Diehl.

TheAnalyst
12-12-2012, 10:41 AM
We overpaid for him. He is average at best. He really is pushed back too often. As I have been saying for the past few years, we need an overhaul of youth at the Oline.

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 10:52 AM
Baas is playing at a serviceable level, finally. But with that said, after this season I think Reese needs to "nuke" the offensive line.

The reasons I feel that way:

1. Our offensive line is below average on a good day. Run blocking especially.
2. Payroll for the Giants offensive line is way above average. Aside from Kevin Boothe, most of these guys are getting paid like Pro-Bowlers.

We are wasting precious cap space on a group of guys that are seriously under-performing.

Except that we are exactly average in the run game (ranked 15th) and way WAY above average in pass protection (Eli is one of the least sacked QBs in the NFL and we have the highest amount of red zone trips in the NFL this year).

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 10:54 AM
I'd still want someone younger in the position... someone drafted early.

The only knock I have on JR is that he refuses to draft o-line before the 4th round...

Beatty and Snee were both second rounders.

PBTimmons
12-12-2012, 11:13 AM
Baas isn't going anywhere, the cap hit would be to large. Same with Diehl.

I'm no expert on salary cap and hits but AFAIK the only salary cap penalties for cutting a player are his bonuses. Baas has workout bonuses each year of his contract for 250k. Cutting him after this season would then result in 750k cap penalty. Well worth it considering his 2013 cap hit alone is 6.2 million.


Except that we are exactly average in the run game (ranked 15th) and way WAY above average in pass protection (Eli is one of the least sacked QBs in the NFL and we have the highest amount of red zone trips in the NFL this year).

Sacks alone do not determine whether an offensive line is good. Eli himself is a big reason for this. A more telling statistic would be amount of QB pressures allowed.

JesseJames
12-12-2012, 11:22 AM
I don't think our O line is playing at the level of their cap space and I think Reese will have to address this in the offseason...

bg79
12-12-2012, 12:22 PM
He is grossly overpaid and at best average and at worst pretty awful.

yo-ho
12-12-2012, 12:44 PM
Show me the beef

Toadofsteel
12-12-2012, 12:48 PM
Except that we are exactly average in the run game (ranked 15th) and way WAY above average in pass protection (Eli is one of the least sacked QBs in the NFL and we have the highest amount of red zone trips in the NFL this year).

I have a feeling our run blocking is more due to Hynocerous coming into his own and the signing of Bennett, as well as Beatty (which as other posters have pointed out to me was a second rounder). Locklear was helpful too until he went down.

As for the sacks allowed count, I'm putting that all on Eli and his godlike pocket presence. There's still defenders free in the backfield on damn near every play...

Gmenbroinlaw
12-12-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm no expert on salary cap and hits but AFAIK the only salary cap penalties for cutting a player are his bonuses. Baas has workout bonuses each year of his contract for 250k. Cutting him after this season would then result in 750k cap penalty. Well worth it considering his 2013 cap hit alone is 6.2 million.



Sacks alone do not determine whether an offensive line is good. Eli himself is a big reason for this. A more telling statistic would be amount of QB pressures allowed.

Wouldn't cutting him accelerate his signing bonuses as well? Those alone wouldn't make him likely to be cut.

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 01:10 PM
I have a feeling our run blocking is more due to Hynocerous coming into his own and the signing of Bennett, as well as Beatty (which as other posters have pointed out to me was a second rounder). Locklear was helpful too until he went down.

As for the sacks allowed count, I'm putting that all on Eli and his godlike pocket presence. There's still defenders free in the backfield on damn near every play...

This is getting annoying. Certainly Eli has really great pocket awareness BUT he doesn't offset a *bad* offensive line (especially considering how long he holds the ball). If you want to say our oline is *average* in pass protection (which I wouldn't agree with) and Eli makes up the rest, I could understand that sentiment.

And our run blocking got better last year when Beatty went out for the season and was replaced by DD at LT and Boothe at LG.

I agree that Hyno and Bennett only aid in our run blocking scheme but I have a feeling that our RBs have something to do with it as well (AB losing steam, the sudden emergence of Andre Brown, David Wilson's success last game, etc ...).

I'm not exactly a David Baas fan (far from it) ... but statistically speaking, he's been playing much better than last year.

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 01:15 PM
Wouldn't cutting him accelerate his signing bonuses as well? Those alone wouldn't make him likely to be cut.

If we cut Baas his cap hit would be $2.45mil in 2013 (6.725mil if not cut), and 2.25mil (7.225mil, 7.475mil) in 2014 and 2015. So about $7mil in dead money over the next three years.

The Giants restructured his contract this year so I highly doubt there is an accelerator.

bearbryant
12-12-2012, 01:28 PM
Where do you start... Hate to play the money card however,. Eli has to make up for the state of his line. Baas will never deliver his salary, neither will DD, he'll never be what he once was, and just because snee is related to the head coach doesn't make him special, or does it? For his play he's over payed. The line has become " servicable". Beatty has become the best player up front, quietly protects eli sometimes struggles in run blocking, as the entire O line does. I agree with other posters regarding the answer. Two early rounders in the draft and another couple of veteran pick ups. Don't try to fix it with FA's. Take the hit and re-build the line where needed. Give Eli & Co. some good old fashioned power football. Go Giants!

GameTime
12-12-2012, 01:33 PM
instead of cutting him how about gettig him to play better. He is still a good player and any player can get better if they want to work hard enough.....

JayMas9
12-12-2012, 01:35 PM
I think Beatty was 2nd round, but I agree, next year the offensive line needs to be addressed early....within rounds 1-3.

Most recently, I think Reese wasted that pick on Jernigan....it was like he was forcing a correction on his Sinorice Moss pick by replacing him with Jernigan.

The Giants have a QB in his prime, surrounded by young receivers, and if Wilson continues to develop, this offense is basically begging for the offensive line to be restocked.

I think it was Parcells who said he was always shocked by how quickly a player can go from NFL-capable to over the hill. The point is the Giants can't just wait for players to be past their prime.....they need guys who are pushing the veterans right now, not a few years down the road.....and this goes for pretty much everyone on the offensive line right now.Sinorice Moss was an Ernie Accorsi pick.

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 01:37 PM
instead of cutting him how about gettig him to play better. He is still a good player and any player can get better if they want to work hard enough.....

+1

That and since we restructured him, we're going to be stuck with him at least two more years.

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 01:37 PM
Sinorice Moss was an Ernie Accorsi pick.

Reese was director of player personnel and evaluation.

Mercury
12-12-2012, 01:48 PM
Baas is doing just fine.

I don't think we need to blow up the Oline in the off-season, that would be extreme. But I agree we could definitely use some upgrading.

Mercury
12-12-2012, 01:48 PM
What was Brewer? Third round? Or was it later?

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 02:01 PM
What was Brewer? Third round? Or was it later?

4th.

I think we'll need to find a RT next year unless one of Brewer/Mosely/McCann step up tremendously. Locklear was a stopgap measure at best and I think EVERYONE realizes that DD is depth at best going forward at this point in his career.

I'm guessing Mosely but I'm the worst judge of new raw talent.

Mercury
12-12-2012, 02:59 PM
4th.

I think we'll need to find a RT next year unless one of Brewer/Mosely/McCann step up tremendously. Locklear was a stopgap measure at best and I think EVERYONE realizes that DD is depth at best going forward at this point in his career.

I'm guessing Mosely but I'm the worst judge of new raw talent.

Thanks for answering my question. Hopefully, the coaches can mold these young guys into some sort of usefulness, whether starters or backups. However, its been a few years since we've invested an early pick on the oline. I think we are overdue. We need to keep our 100 million dollar QB's uniform clean so he looks pretty in the pictures.

Toadofsteel
12-12-2012, 03:04 PM
This is getting annoying. Certainly Eli has really great pocket awareness BUT he doesn't offset a *bad* offensive line (especially considering how long he holds the ball). If you want to say our oline is *average* in pass protection (which I wouldn't agree with) and Eli makes up the rest, I could understand that sentiment.

And our run blocking got better last year when Beatty went out for the season and was replaced by DD at LT and Boothe at LG.

I agree that Hyno and Bennett only aid in our run blocking scheme but I have a feeling that our RBs have something to do with it as well (AB losing steam, the sudden emergence of Andre Brown, David Wilson's success last game, etc ...).

I'm not exactly a David Baas fan (far from it) ... but statistically speaking, he's been playing much better than last year.

I'm not trying to say our o-line is horrible, just that we desperately need to invest an early pick into the OL. Preferably all of the first 3 picks. We need a new C, LG, RT going into the future. RG too... Snee is eventually going to tank as well, possibly as early as next year.

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 03:14 PM
I'm not trying to say our o-line is horrible, just that we desperately need to invest an early pick into the OL. Preferably all of the first 3 picks. We need a new C, LG, RT going into the future. RG too... Snee is eventually going to tank as well, possibly as early as next year.

Supposedly this was the year we would have done it ... especially with Cordy Glenn dropping to us. Instead we went David Wilson.

And it would be hard to imagine the Giants not going with a DE in the first two rounds next draft.

Toadofsteel
12-12-2012, 03:33 PM
Supposedly this was the year we would have done it ... especially with Cordy Glenn dropping to us. Instead we went David Wilson.

And it would be hard to imagine the Giants not going with a DE in the first two rounds next draft.

Given Brown being out for the season and Bradshaw being held together by scotch tape, in hindsight I'm glad we have Wilson. But our O-line still needs a boost more than our DE's. If Williams and/or Rivers can stay on the field more often, Kiwi can go back to pure pass rusher, and we can work Tracy and Ojomo into the rotation.

Kruunch
12-12-2012, 03:39 PM
Given Brown being out for the season and Bradshaw being held together by scotch tape, in hindsight I'm glad we have Wilson. But our O-line still needs a boost more than our DE's. If Williams and/or Rivers can stay on the field more often, Kiwi can go back to pure pass rusher, and we can work Tracy and Ojomo into the rotation.

I'm not sure about that.

Tracy barely makes the field and has Ojomo even dressed for a game yet? Given our pension for pass rushers and the fact that this is most likely Osi's last year and Tuck under performing, I don't see how the Giants don't draft a DE early. Especially over oline which we've gone the route of throwing numbers at the various positions and hoping some stick.

I like the Wilson pick ... however it does show the priority given this years' need and what was available.

Dwinsballgames
12-12-2012, 04:33 PM
here are my thouhts:

he's one scary-looking dude:

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nfl/players/full/8447.png&w=350&h=254

JayMas9
12-12-2012, 07:18 PM
Reese was director of player personnel and evaluation.So that means all of Resse's picks are now Mark Ross'? Reese and Accorsi clearly have different styles, the GM ultimately has the say. Moss is an Accorsi pick, Steve Smith, Manningham, Nicks, Barden, Jernigan, Randle, are Reese picks.

Baby Bulls
12-12-2012, 11:08 PM
Give Tracey a chance, I think we might all be pleasantly surprised. He's a solid special reamer, with good speed. I saw give him a shot.

JJC7301
12-12-2012, 11:16 PM
I guess that he's been fine. As a unit, they pass-protect well so I have to give them all credit. As a unit, they don't run-block well, but I don't know if that's their fault as a unit, or 2 or 3 players. I can't tell.

I don't have a problem with Baas, it's Diehl that needs to be replaced after this year (or at least not start anymore).

JJC7301
12-12-2012, 11:19 PM
I'd still want someone younger in the position... someone drafted early.

The only knock I have on JR is that he refuses to draft o-line before the 4th round...
I can't knock it -- it works. I'd rather have top talent at the skill positions because it is easier to find good o-lineman further down in the draft. Not easy, but easier.

I did want Cordy Glenn this year in the first round, however, because of his ability to play both T and G. IF Wilson winds up being a game-changing talent next year, then there won't be anything to complain about.

GMENAGAIN
12-13-2012, 12:20 AM
4th.

I think we'll need to find a RT next year unless one of Brewer/Mosely/McCann step up tremendously. Locklear was a stopgap measure at best and I think EVERYONE realizes that DD is depth at best going forward at this point in his career.

I'm guessing Mosely but I'm the worst judge of new raw talent.

Brewer is not an NFL player. McCants might be the worst football player I have ever seen.

Captain Chaos
12-13-2012, 07:21 AM
Baas is servicable period, Boothe is a solid back up, Double D is moving towards the solid back portion of his career. They need to get a solid Tackle and Guard in this years Draft. Don't know what is happening with Brewer but like to find out how he is progressing...