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View Full Version : Look at all the weapons Brady has versus Eli...



PennState1
12-17-2012, 12:56 AM
Welker. - effective and involved
Edlemann - effective and involved
Hernandez - effective and involved
Gronk - effective and involved
Lloyd - effective and involved
Ridley - effective and involved
Vereen - has made contributions
Stall worth - made a few key contributions at a key time due to injuries
Branch- same as above
Bolden - until injured mtpl 100 yard games


What does Eli have?
Hakeem - (Injured all year) - 50%
Cruz- effective and involved
Bennett - effective and involved but played injured for 5 weeks
Bradshaw (injured all year) - amazing considering health
Brown - good while it lasted
Wilson - ineffective, not involved other then sp
Hixon - somewhat effective and involved - more now
Randle - limited involvement
Barden - limited involvement
Pascoe - limited involvement
Jernigan - limited involvement

When we lose a key player we get Lumpkin. When the Pats lose a key player they get a talib, a key d- backfield replacement who makes a major impact. They sign players like Deon Branch, Lloyd and stallworth. They pick up Ballard and Shiancoe. They have a strong o-line bench. They bring in experienced back ups to fill in and it's plug and play.

Losing Manningham and, as it turns out, Jacobs was huge. We don't have proper bench depth and Eli does not have the weapons he needs to succeed. We should have a good WR who could have filled in successfully for Hakeem so he could have rested and come back late in the season versus playing hurt all year. We should have had a serviceable TE so Bennett did not have to play with a busted knee and disappeared in our O for 4 to 5 weeks.

giantsfan420
12-17-2012, 12:59 AM
most people dont want to take in the context of elis play. its "he isnt doing what brady does, hes not elite", not only does brady have that talent around him, he has an OL that actually gives him clean pockets snap after snap...id **** my pants if i saw eli getting that kind of pocket...

wrek537emc
12-17-2012, 01:06 AM
yeah, eli was running for his life today. how many throws did he make on the RauN today... i never seen Eli run so fast. yeah he threw into tight coverage, but the receivers should have fought for the ball rather than sitting n waiting for it to come hit them in the chest. then after the interception rather than making a tackle, they were putting their hands up n hoping for a PI call... which never came.

BurnerNYG
12-17-2012, 01:08 AM
yeah, eli was running for his life today. how many throws did he make on the RauN today... i never seen Eli run so fast. yeah he threw into tight coverage, but the receivers should have fought for the ball rather than sitting n waiting for it to come hit them in the chest. then after the interception rather than making a tackle, they were putting their hands up n hoping for a PI call... which never came.He obviously wasn't running fast enough.

GiantRoc
12-17-2012, 01:10 AM
Do you really think Brady's team talent is that much better? I sure don't think so. The difference is all about the game planning. A second string quarterback that never started in college or the pros led them to 12 wins. We don't have the O line for Eli to throw deep. But we keep trying. Let's face it,we just have a weak team this year. They game plan to take advantage of what talents they do have. No matter who is in the game for us, no matter who is hurt we run the same game plan. We just don't have the talent to make up for for poor game plans.

Flip Empty
12-17-2012, 01:12 AM
Brady makes those weapons work.

giantsfan420
12-17-2012, 01:16 AM
Do you really think Brady's team talent is that much better? I sure don't think so. The difference is all about the game planning. A second string quarterback that never started in college or the pros led them to 12 wins. We don't have the O line for Eli to throw deep. But we keep trying. Let's face it,we just have a weak team this year. They game plan to take advantage of what talents they do have. No matter who is in the game for us, no matter who is hurt we run the same game plan. We just don't have the talent to make up for for poor game plans.yes i def think they have superior talent and its not even close. hernadez, gronk? thats amazing right there. then welker on top? they know how to use their role players too like woodhead. dont forget, brandon lloyd has the best hands in the nfl imo...they def are stacked talent wise. their OL too...man...smh

PennState1
12-17-2012, 01:18 AM
I think he has more options open to him ( Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edlemann, Ridley) than Eli does and we play with a #1 WR who limped throughout this entire season and only 1 TE who limped around for 5 games. Other the Cruz what does Eli really have this year? Where is the next man up behind Hakeem? Where is our 2nd TE? Pascoe has been a ghost this year.

nYg24
12-17-2012, 01:19 AM
Brady has a history of winning with a terrible supporting cast.

joemorrisforprez
12-17-2012, 01:21 AM
yeah, eli was running for his life today. how many throws did he make on the RauN today... i never seen Eli run so fast. yeah he threw into tight coverage, but the receivers should have fought for the ball rather than sitting n waiting for it to come hit them in the chest. then after the interception rather than making a tackle, they were putting their hands up n hoping for a PI call... which never came.

A competent offensive coordinator makes adjustments.

It's amazing every OC the Giants defense plays against have somehow mastered the short passing game to neutralize the Giants pass rush.....but our OC can't make such an adjustment.

If you thought this was another "Gilbride sucks" post from me, you are correct.

jgrangers11
12-17-2012, 01:26 AM
I think he has more options open to him ( Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edlemann, Ridley) than Eli does and we play with a #1 WR who limped throughout this entire season and only 1 TE who limped around for 5 games. Other the Cruz what does Eli really have this year? Where is the next man up behind Hakeem? Where is our 2nd TE? Pascoe has been a ghost this year.

Exactly. And as I pointed out in another thread, just watch the Patriots play and watch the Giants play. Look at how open the Pats' receivers are compared to ours. Eli is constantly throwing into tight windows. Our receivers just don't get that much separation and I think it's because we don't have a legitimate third option to pull pressure from Cruz and Nicks. The Pats' dearth of receivers gives them so many weapons and so many things they can do creatively. Just watch how many times Welker or Hernandez gets wide open. The Patriots probably do a better job of utilizing their skill players than any team in the league. Just watch how many easy, quick throws Brady makes during a game compared to Eli. It seems like everything Eli throws is into tight coverage and takes time to develop.

mike kennedy
12-17-2012, 01:27 AM
We have weapons! We just have plays designed for 1 person. We are single dimensional!

Flip Empty
12-17-2012, 01:31 AM
Brady has a history of winning with a terrible supporting cast.
Indeed. He got to the AFC title game with Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell. That impressed the hell out of me.

joemorrisforprez
12-17-2012, 01:32 AM
Anyone notice how the OC for the Patriots went no huddle at times?

Man, I wonder how that would work out with the Giants.

GiantRoc
12-17-2012, 10:16 PM
yes i def think they have superior talent and its not even close. hernadez, gronk? thats amazing right there. then welker on top? they know how to use their role players too like woodhead. dont forget, brandon lloyd has the best hands in the nfl imo...they def are stacked talent wise. their OL too...man...smh



If you gave Brady our skill players, he would do just as well if not better in some areas. He has played with no names for a long time. The system is what makes them look so good. Hernandez drops a ton of balls. The scheme they run is what works. I will give them the nod on the O-line. I don't think they are the best line though. They throw a lot of quick passes. Brady gets hit plenty if they need the long ball a lot.

giantsfan420
12-17-2012, 10:18 PM
If you gave Brady our skill players, he would do just as well if not better in some areas. He has played with no names for a long time. The system is what makes them look so good. Hernandez drops a ton of balls. The scheme they run is what works. I will give them the nod on the O-line. I don't think they are the best line though. They throw a lot of quick passes. Brady gets hit plenty if they need the long ball a lot.i agree with ur point about giving brady any talent and he'll succeed and i think a big part of that is their system and another big part is their OL. NE has put emphasis on having an OL that will give Brady clean pockets. we havent.

GameTime
12-17-2012, 10:20 PM
we beat them last year....

GiantRoc
12-17-2012, 11:33 PM
we beat them last year....

They have a bad D. That really helps us against them. If we were to meet this year I think we would be in trouble.
Our D is just too beat up and inconsistent.

Rudyy
12-17-2012, 11:35 PM
I really want to print all these threads about Eli and mail it to him so he can laugh at them.

PennState1
12-18-2012, 12:28 AM
If you gave Brady our skill players, he would do just as well if not better in some areas. He has played with no names for a long time. The system is what makes them look so good. Hernandez drops a ton of balls. The scheme they run is what works. I will give them the nod on the O-line. I don't think they are the best line though. They throw a lot of quick passes. Brady gets hit plenty if they need the long ball a lot.NO, not with the injuries and lack of fill-in players he wouldn't. I double Bellichek would play his WR1 and only TE hurt all year long.

PennState1
12-18-2012, 12:30 AM
I also doubt that if a Pats player did not practice all week, week after week, he would not play on Sunday.

Flip Empty
12-18-2012, 12:53 AM
I really want to print all these threads about Eli and mail it to him so he can laugh at them.
Does he not have the internet?

Rudyy
12-18-2012, 12:59 AM
Does he not have the internet?Eh, I bet he would read fan mail before going on a message board.

BuffyBlueII
12-18-2012, 01:06 AM
If you gave Brady our skill players, he would do just as well if not better in some areas. He has played with no names for a long time. The system is what makes them look so good. Hernandez drops a ton of balls. The scheme they run is what works. I will give them the nod on the O-line. I don't think they are the best line though. They throw a lot of quick passes. Brady gets hit plenty if they need the long ball a lot.

The coaching on NE Patriots is awesome and the system is great. It is geared around Tom Brady and it has changed over the years and he has adapted depending on the personnel he has. Tom Brady makes it work there. He may be The Best QB of All Time.

BuffyBlueII
12-18-2012, 01:08 AM
NO, not with the injuries and lack of fill-in players he wouldn't. I double Bellichek would play his WR1 and only TE hurt all year long.

Of course he would do great. Tom Brady would only take our OCs nonsense for so long and then put him in his place.

BuffyBlueII
12-18-2012, 01:08 AM
Eh, I bet he would read fan mail before going on a message board.

I am sure he would spend time taking care of one of his charitable cause instead of wasting his time reading here.

GiantRoc
12-18-2012, 01:12 AM
Who said anything bad about Eli? If you talk talent you can't compare injured players to healthy ones. That doesnt make sense. But New England has had good seasons year after year. They have injuries just like every other team. They either adjust, or have a scheme that works no matter who is playing. I think if Eli play for the Pats, he would have numbers every bit as good as Brady. If not better.

giantsfan420
12-18-2012, 01:18 AM
Who said anything bad about Eli? If you talk talent you can't compare injured players to healthy ones. That doesnt make sense. But New England has had good seasons year after year. They have injuries just like every other team. They either adjust, or have a scheme that works no matter who is playing. I think if Eli play for the Pats, he would have numbers every bit as good as Brady. If not better.agreed. nice post

DarkSaint
12-18-2012, 01:46 AM
Another way to look at it its:
Giants skill players do well with the giants, leave and are garbage..

The Pats QB does great with the Pats, leaves and is garbage..

BillTheGreek
12-18-2012, 01:56 AM
Exactly. And as I pointed out in another thread, just watch the Patriots play and watch the Giants play. Look at how open the Pats' receivers are compared to ours. Eli is constantly throwing into tight windows. Our receivers just don't get that much separation and I think it's because we don't have a legitimate third option to pull pressure from Cruz and Nicks. The Pats' dearth of receivers gives them so many weapons and so many things they can do creatively. Just watch how many times Welker or Hernandez gets wide open. The Patriots probably do a better job of utilizing their skill players than any team in the league. Just watch how many easy, quick throws Brady makes during a game compared to Eli. It seems like everything Eli throws is into tight coverage and takes time to develop.

^^ This why the Pats are in a Lot of Play offs.

DarkSaint
12-18-2012, 02:25 AM
^^ This why the Pats are in a Lot of Play offs.

It's not just the players, it's the system and the playbook. I'm sure that Bradshaw is better than Woodhead, we can use Bennett like Gron. We have Nicks, Cruz, Hixion, Randle, Barden and JJ. We have tons of talent but the system is garbage with an OC who refuses to change his ways. We do a lot of thinking on the field. This forces our receivers to use their brains instead of their athleticism which prevents separation. The coaches are paid to use their brains and the players their athleticism but for some reason we have it backwards. LOL

giantsfan420
12-18-2012, 02:30 AM
It's not just the players, it's the system and the playbook. I'm sure that Bradshaw is better than Woodhead, we can use Bennett like Gron. We have Nicks, Cruz, Hixion, Randle, Barden and JJ. We have tons of talent but the system is garbage with an OC who refuses to change his ways. We do a lot of thinking on the field. This forces our receivers to use their brains instead of their athleticism which prevents separation. The coaches are paid to use their brains and the players their athleticism but for some reason we have it backwards. LOLdude well said. i remember i wasnt posting for a while and u were and people were saying u were really me lol and i take that as a compliment bc i havent seen u make a bad post yet. perfectly said.

i would like to see more of the OC designing the plays that are called bc KG has identified the defense, and the plays design gets the receiver open. the players are having to become on the field OC's to an extent and its why it takes a while for guys to grasp our system, and even then, mistakes are still made

GiantRoc
12-18-2012, 02:41 AM
It's not just the players, it's the system and the playbook. I'm sure that Bradshaw is better than Woodhead, we can use Bennett like Gron. We have Nicks, Cruz, Hixion, Randle, Barden and JJ. We have tons of talent but the system is garbage with an OC who refuses to change his ways. We do a lot of thinking on the field. This forces our receivers to use their brains instead of their athleticism which prevents separation. The coaches are paid to use their brains and the players their athleticism but for some reason we have it backwards. LOL

I really like how you said that. Kinda puts a sharp point on what a lot of us are trying to say.

DarkSaint
12-18-2012, 02:44 AM
Thanks 420, LOL, I've been a long time lurker on this board and just decided to join. I share many of your views, our Oline is also partly to blame, but we can overcome that with shorter quick easy dump off passes that other teams use to stop our Dline. Wonder if our OC is taking notes when opposing offenses are on the field against our Dline. LOL

giantsfan420
12-18-2012, 02:44 AM
i agree roc

DarkSaint
12-18-2012, 02:53 AM
dude well said. i remember i wasnt posting for a while and u were and people were saying u were really me lol and i take that as a compliment bc i havent seen u make a bad post yet. perfectly said.

I had a couple of epic post in that Brees thread and I hated it when it got deleted LOL

Tmurda1984
12-18-2012, 06:23 AM
Brady does have more weapons than Eli. Every year the Patriots have an offensive line to keep Brady upright. The Patriots was even 11-5 WITH MATT CASSEL....If the Giants was too lose Eli, we would be a 3-13 team. Even Matt Cassel was able to avoid injury and stay up right because he had an O Line and receivers who has the ability to get open.

Every time Eli throws the ball...its into tight windows. When you watch Gronk and Hernandez, Welker they get wide open and Brady is rarely touched. If Brady was a Giant, he would butt heads with Reese. Brady would demand an O-Line, and challenge Nicks and Bennett to get their heads into the game. Brady would not win with these weapons, because Brady is a WHOLE DIFFERENT QB when he GETS HIT. Like I said before...Matt Cassel was 11-5 with the Patriots....Its not that hard because of the talent level they have on that team.

Also the Patroits know when to get rid of players. Remember Laurence Maroney, how talented people thought he was, and the Patriots personnel got rid of him. The were able to get rid of terrible route runners like Ocho Cinco and Moss. Eli still has terrible route runners in this offense and a sorry Offensive Line.

brad
12-18-2012, 07:09 AM
The Pats don't have better weapons, what they do have is a system that adapts to make the most of the talent they do have rather than making receivers and running backs spend 2 years learning a system, often forcing them to do things that they aren't good at. KG has installed an extremely complex system, one where even the most experienced QBs and WR will have lapses and not be on the same page. NE runs a very simple offense, one where most players can step in and contribute within a few weeks.... and if they don't have the talent to run the system, they change the system to adapt to make the most of what they do have. 5 years ago they didn't run a 2 TE set the way they do now... but when they got two great TEs, they adapted.

Rudyy
12-18-2012, 07:31 AM
I am sure he would spend time taking care of one of his charitable cause instead of wasting his time reading here.Exactly

TheAnalyst
12-18-2012, 07:59 AM
Brady makes his weapons, as does Eli. Dominic Hixon? Ramses Barden? Rueben Randle? These guys stepped up when needed and much was because Eli helped them step up.

Im pretty sure most teams would kill to have Nicks and Cruz, including Brady.

OX1
12-18-2012, 08:26 AM
Anyone notice how the OC for the Patriots went no huddle at times?

Man, I wonder how that would work out with the Giants.

How old is Killdrive? You know when you might find out?

gumby74
12-18-2012, 08:55 AM
Who said anything bad about Eli? If you talk talent you can't compare injured players to healthy ones. That doesnt make sense. But New England has had good seasons year after year. They have injuries just like every other team. They either adjust, or have a scheme that works no matter who is playing. I think if Eli play for the Pats, he would have numbers every bit as good as Brady. If not better.

You nuts? Brady is one of the best when it comes to accuracy and hitting people in stride. Eli is terrible with hitting WRs in stride. Everytime he does, it's like "Wow". Except 2011, he was always throwing high, behind, god knows where.

DarkSaint
12-18-2012, 08:58 AM
You nuts? Brady is one of the best when it comes to accuracy and hitting people in stride. Eli is terrible with hitting WRs in stride. Everytime he does, it's like "Wow". Except 2011, he was always throwing high, behind, god knows where.

Yeah that int in the SB hit Blackburn in stride. How about missing a wide open Welker? or throwing behind Hernandez on a crucial 3rd and 10? All 3 in the biggest stage of the game were in stride.

gumby74
12-18-2012, 09:03 AM
Yeah that int in the SB hit Blackburn in stride. How about missing a wide open Welker? or throwing behind Hernandez on a crucial 3rd and 10? All 3 in the biggest stage of the game were in stride.

Ah, the old "selective universe" technique. This isn't about one game or one season. It's throughout the span of their careers. It boggles my mind how some find it so difficult to grasp.

OX1
12-18-2012, 09:04 AM
The Pats don't have better weapons, what they do have is a system that adapts to make the most of the talent they do have rather than making receivers and running backs spend 2 years learning a system, often forcing them to do things that they aren't good at. KG has installed an extremely complex system, one where even the most experienced QBs and WR will have lapses and not be on the same page. NE runs a very simple offense, one where most players can step in and contribute within a few weeks.... and if they don't have the talent to run the system, they change the system to adapt to make the most of what they do have. 5 years ago they didn't run a 2 TE set the way they do now... but when they got two great TEs, they adapted.

The complexity may be hard to defend, but only when our starters are out there
(and healthy). For whatever reason, we get killed with injuries and backups coming in will
never know the system well enough to be great. This sport is always a what have you done for
me lately, as it should be. Who cares if you won it all last year, does that mean you ignore
your players, scheme, injuries, talent levels this year when it hasn't been working all that well most of the year.

Imgrate
12-18-2012, 09:08 AM
Gronk or Hernandez has been hurt all year.

Mercury
12-18-2012, 09:32 AM
And for all that superior talent on NE, they lost to us schlubs in the SB twice, once when they were 18-0 in the season. They've lost the last 3 times we've faced each other. It's easy to take Brady out of his game. Ever since his injury, hit him a few times, he gets very flustered and makes panic decisions.

Eli makes bone-headed decisions sometimes too. However, he's not afraid to take a hit.

DarkSaint
12-18-2012, 09:34 AM
Ah, the old "selective universe" technique. This isn't about one game or one season. It's throughout the span of their careers. It boggles my mind how some find it so difficult to grasp. And you have seen every pass brady has thrown in his entire career? Truly does boggle ones mind when even the most basic concepts are difficult to comprehend.

Brady's Pats were down 31-3 or something, Their OC went no huddle, anything to help Brady who threw 2 ints ( perfect throws in stride mind you) and 1 touchdown in 65 pass attempts. That's the difference between the system/coaches he plays for and the system and coaches we play for. The big comeback against TB isn't the same because even though we fell behind (big) , we were still moving the ball. In the ATL and Cincy game we couldn't do anything offensively yet our OC continued to try to fit a cube through a circular pin hole.

DarkSaint
12-18-2012, 09:38 AM
And for all that superior talent on NE, they lost to us schlubs in the SB twice, once when they were 18-0 in the season. They've lost the last 3 times we've faced each other. It's easy to take Brady out of his game. Ever since his injury, hit him a few times, he gets very flustered and makes panic decisions.

Eli makes bone-headed decisions sometimes too. However, he's not afraid to take a hit.

They look boneheaded because no one is ever open. If he throws them away, people question his accuracy because they negatively impact his completion percentage. The thing is, he can't keep throwing them away, he has to force some throws in and unfortunately, sometimes the dbs make great plays. Like the second int, great throw, would have hit Nicks in stride, but the db knew where the ball was going and beat nicks to it.

Die-Hard
12-18-2012, 09:42 AM
Eli makes bone-headed decisions sometimes too. However, he's not afraid to take a hit.

Not an entirely accurate statement. Eli, many, many times, has thrown the ball up fior grabs when he's about to take a shot, with typically horrible results.

I get that its self-preservation, but it has cost the team several games over the years. I'm not questioning his toughness, because he is without a doubt one of the tougher QB's in the game, but he does have this annoying tendency to chuck it with pressure in his face.