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Imgrate
12-18-2012, 07:06 PM
A whole lot of people seem fed up with "kildrive" and perry "fool". Similarly you all were fed up with hufnagel, tim lewis, and bill sheridan. There has been one beloved coordinator during the TC era, Spags. Why is it you all are mad at the coordinators and want them fired? Why not the guy that hired both of them. The same man that has fired 3 coordinators during his tenure. So much angst toward coordinators but not the HC. I wonder why?

Buddy333
12-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Some how winning two Super Bowls is no big deal. So many other coaches and GM's have done it that the Giants should clean house on year after winning he Super Bowl. Are they playing good now? No. Is it frustrating to watch? Yes. Do they need to clean house? No.

Toadofsteel
12-18-2012, 07:25 PM
3 shotgun draws in a row. 'nuff said.

stormblue
12-18-2012, 07:26 PM
there are a lot of anti - TC members around here.
but we stay quiet for the most part
because after 8 years of trying to get rid of him , we know its not gonna happen
because the organization doesn't listen to us.

and we are outnumbered 1000 to 1 on these boards , so you must fear for your life when posting against TC.

they are Hobbits....blinded by the rings....they really think TC's coaching got us those rings.
instead of realizing that 2 mediocre teams over-achieved and got hot in the playoffs and gave him a free ride.

but posting about it , has become pointless.......as with most wisdom ,,,,it falls on deaf ears .
it's just not worth the hassel to argue about it.,,,,,,,they have strength in numbers.

hopefully this thread goes away before you get assassinated or burned at the stake .

brad
12-18-2012, 07:29 PM
I think the main issues with PF is that the defense seems soft and gives up way too many big plays. Personally, I could take him or leave him, but prefer a more aggressive defense than what he brings.

with KG, it all comes down to inconsistency. I don't consider him a bad coordinator but am not a big fan of the "chuck and duck" offense. The biggest issue with it is how long it takes plays to develop, and the offensive line not being able to provide the time. There are worse O-lines in the NFL, but most offenses recognize that and design plays to get rid of the ball faster. This is an offense that relies heavily on the deep pass, the lowest success percentage play, and complex routes that require the receiver and QB to be on the same page at all times. If that doesn't work, they have little to fall back on. It's either great or horrible. When it's great, it is awesome to watch, when it's not... you have games like ATL and Cincy.

Rudyy
12-18-2012, 07:30 PM
So you want TC fired but not the coordinators..?

Rudyy
12-18-2012, 07:31 PM
I think the main issues with PF is that the defense seems soft and gives up way too many big plays. Personally, I could take him or leave him, but prefer a more aggressive defense than what he brings.

with KG, it all comes down to inconsistency. I don't consider him a bad coordinator but am not a big fan of the "chuck and duck" offense. The biggest issue with it is how long it takes plays to develop, and the offensive line not being able to provide the time. There are worse O-lines in the NFL, but most offenses recognize that and design plays to get rid of the ball faster. This is an offense that relies heavily on the deep pass, the lowest success percentage play, and complex routes that require the receiver and QB to be on the same page at all times. If that doesn't work, they have little to fall back on. It's either great or horrible. When it's great, it is awesome to watch, when it's not... you have games like ATL and Cincy.Well said.

Toadofsteel
12-18-2012, 07:32 PM
with KG, it all comes down to inconsistency.

Umm... I think KG is the exact opposite of inconsistent. Say it with me: "Shotgun Draw"...

brad
12-18-2012, 07:35 PM
Umm... I think KG is the exact opposite of inconsistent. Say it with me: "Shotgun Draw"...

LOL, inconsistent in results, i.e. NO game then ATL game.

freeoscar
12-18-2012, 07:36 PM
ask Eagles and Ravens fans how firing the coordinator worked out for them. it continually blows my mind that under Coughlin and Eli the Giants haven't had a losing season, and have won 2 SBs, and people still aren't happy. And this in a town where we are witness to how difficult it is to have success in this league.

Imgrate
12-18-2012, 07:37 PM
So you want TC fired but not the coordinators..?I don't want anyone fired. I am questioning all the people that are calling for one or both of the coordinators' head but not coughlin's. Coughlin has already hired 3 bad coordinators and now posters are saying a 4th or even 5th. How can you possibly justify firing the coordinators and not the man that hired them, along with 3 other bad ones? If you want a coordinator fired you should also want tc fired. Wanting a coordinator fired is an admission of another failure of coughlin.

TheEnigma
12-18-2012, 07:38 PM
KG is a brilliant offensive coordinator but I think it's time for a little shakeup in some of his personnel packages and playcalling (yes, Eli has some responsibility with the plays he checks into also) that has become grossly stale the last few years. We do have talented players like Wilson, and Jernigan that could certainly benefit from a different scheme. What about more passes to Hynoski? Wilson looked good as a receiving option and could add another wrinkle there. Just some examples and I'm sure others could add to that.

nyfan1029
12-18-2012, 07:49 PM
Love TC and JR. Things will get better or they will turn it around net year

Buddy333
12-18-2012, 08:05 PM
They just won the Super Bowl last year. Fire TC? Two Super Bowls in just 8 seasons and he should be fired? That's funny stuff. Lets also not forget they where one of the worst teams in the league when he became the head coach.

stormblue
12-18-2012, 08:16 PM
They just won the Super Bowl last year. Fire TC? Two Super Bowls in just 8 seasons and he should be fired? That's funny stuff. Lets also not forget they where one of the worst teams in the league when he became the head coach.

that's usually why HC changes are made isn't it ?

giantsfan420
12-18-2012, 08:34 PM
I think the main issues with PF is that the defense seems soft and gives up way too many big plays. Personally, I could take him or leave him, but prefer a more aggressive defense than what he brings.

with KG, it all comes down to inconsistency. I don't consider him a bad coordinator but am not a big fan of the "chuck and duck" offense. The biggest issue with it is how long it takes plays to develop, and the offensive line not being able to provide the time. There are worse O-lines in the NFL, but most offenses recognize that and design plays to get rid of the ball faster. This is an offense that relies heavily on the deep pass, the lowest success percentage play, and complex routes that require the receiver and QB to be on the same page at all times. If that doesn't work, they have little to fall back on. It's either great or horrible. When it's great, it is awesome to watch, when it's not... you have games like ATL and Cincy.nicely said. reads like the posts i was making yesterday. u summed it up very nicely, especially when you started "This is an offense that...you have games like Atl and Cincy"...I agree 1000% with that part and have been saying so. i didnt think anyone else thought of it like that bc it was a theory i proposed the past couple days to Marv and MS about the inconsistency issue.
edit- I dunno if its that KG doesnt want to adjust, but that its he just doesnt have the ability to with his offensive scheme. how do u adjust the plays that are made up entirely of adjustments? the wrs and qb need to read the defense midplay and go where theyre not, I dunno how he can adjust from that bc thats HIS offense...I'd think that adjustments he COULD make are going no huddle, or spread formation more but...smh

Goose403
12-18-2012, 08:45 PM
The problem with the coordinators is their in game management skills. They don't ever adjust, they don't ever go into no huddle offenses. No switching in younger D-lineman like tracy, Ojumo or other hungrier players that can add a spark. They don't jam receivers at the line to provide the d-line more time to disrupt the QB’s timing. These are very obvious solutions that the coordinators don't do. that's why they need to go.

giantsfan420
12-18-2012, 08:46 PM
ask Eagles and Ravens fans how firing the coordinator worked out for them. it continually blows my mind that under Coughlin and Eli the Giants haven't had a losing season, and have won 2 SBs, and people still aren't happy. And this in a town where we are witness to how difficult it is to have success in this league.its shocking to me that some people dont have that factoid, the no losing record (and to add one, we've missed the playoffs the number of sbs we've won during elis tenure as starter, 2. 2 in 8 yrs is damn good) should be ingrained into peoples minds when criticizing TC and Eli.

OX1
12-18-2012, 09:08 PM
KG is a brilliant offensive coordinator but I think it's time for a little shakeup in some of his personnel packages and playcalling (yes, Eli has some responsibility with the plays he checks into also) that has become grossly stale the last few years. We do have talented players like Wilson, and Jernigan that could certainly benefit from a different scheme. What about more passes to Hynoski? Wilson looked good as a receiving option and could add another wrinkle there. Just some examples and I'm sure others could add to that.

Wouldn't a brilliant OC adapt to the players he has, instead of forcing what they can no longer seem to execute.

penguinfarmer
12-18-2012, 09:17 PM
People also don't like to admit that Eli has just as much to do with the call made at the snap of the ball as Gilbride, if not more.

Buddy333
12-18-2012, 09:50 PM
that's usually why HC changes are made isn't it ?Huh?

brad
12-18-2012, 10:11 PM
People also don't like to admit that Eli has just as much to do with the call made at the snap of the ball as Gilbride, if not more.

I have seen many people say that on this board, but have yet to see anyone point to anything that confirms it. My understanding is that Eli is given 3 plays in the huddle which he can audible into at the line... but that I have no proof of that either. I am not certain how it works, but what I do know is that this is KG's system not Eli's

TheShouldersOf
12-18-2012, 10:37 PM
there are a lot of anti - TC members around here.
but we stay quiet for the most part
because after 8 years of trying to get rid of him , we know its not gonna happen
because the organization doesn't listen to us.

and we are outnumbered 1000 to 1 on these boards , so you must fear for your life when posting against TC.

they are Hobbits....blinded by the rings....they really think TC's coaching got us those rings.
instead of realizing that 2 mediocre teams over-achieved and got hot in the playoffs and gave him a free ride.

but posting about it , has become pointless.......as with most wisdom ,,,,it falls on deaf ears .
it's just not worth the hassle to argue about it.,,,,,,,they have strength in numbers.

hopefully this thread goes away before you get assassinated or burned at the stake .

Quoted for Truth!

if you are an Offensive coordinator, and you know Wilson is starting, don't you think you would create a game plan that utilizes his strengths?

Stretch plays, more tosses, outside tackle runs, counter plays, with more trap blocking, pulling etc, instead of one toss and the rest draws?

that is the fault of the Coordinator and the Head Coach, if you know nicks is hurt, create a game plan that utilizes him for slants, 6-7 yard pick ups, or spread the field with receivers etc

that is what you get paid for, to be creative, not to rely on shotgun draws and deep passes

nycisgreat
12-18-2012, 10:44 PM
3 shotgun draws in a row. 'nuff said.

I had the same argument with some else on the same topic. I thought I was seeing things when I saw the same play three times in a row.

Toadofsteel
12-18-2012, 10:48 PM
I had the same argument with some else on the same topic. I thought I was seeing things when I saw the same play three times in a row. I though the third one was a replay at first, then was wondering why it was 4th down...

joemorrisforprez
12-19-2012, 12:11 AM
3 shotgun draws in a row. 'nuff said.

Perfect retort

ozzie0075
12-19-2012, 12:24 AM
there are a lot of anti - TC members around here.
but we stay quiet for the most part
because after 8 years of trying to get rid of him , we know its not gonna happen
because the organization doesn't listen to us.

and we are outnumbered 1000 to 1 on these boards , so you must fear for your life when posting against TC.

they are Hobbits....blinded by the rings....they really think TC's coaching got us those rings.
instead of realizing that 2 mediocre teams over-achieved and got hot in the playoffs and gave him a free ride.

but posting about it , has become pointless.......as with most wisdom ,,,,it falls on deaf ears .
it's just not worth the hassel to argue about it.,,,,,,,they have strength in numbers.

hopefully this thread goes away before you get assassinated or burned at the stake .

I know I shouldn't be but every time I come on the boards I am shocked by some of things posted on here.

ukgiantstyke
12-19-2012, 03:09 AM
If you can imagine a boxer who has risen from the ranks with the best right hook in the business, and PF takes over as his trainer, instills in him that he needs better footwork, better defense, better jab, stay on the back foot, circle the ring....Wins start to come by points instead of knockouts, and then losses start to come because he has lost his competitive aggressive edge...forgets to use the best right hook in the business because PF tells him he doesnt need it...and then disappears into obscurity....

stormblue
12-19-2012, 05:16 AM
Huh?

"they where one of the worst teams in the league when he became the head coach."

just pointing out that TC taking over a team with a bad record is hardly anything unusual ,
that is the foremost case scenario for head coach replacement.

you made that statement implying that TC taking over a team with a bad record was something extraordinary.....
when in fact it is the de-facto reason for a HC change .

stormblue
12-19-2012, 05:22 AM
I know I shouldn't be but every time I come on the boards I am shocked by some of things posted on here.

as am i , with the TC matrix that most of you live in.
but like i said.....it's pointless.

Hobbits.

Buddy333
12-19-2012, 08:36 AM
"they where one of the worst teams in the league when he became the head coach."just pointing out that TC taking over a team with a bad record is hardly anything unusual ,that is the foremost case scenario for head coach replacement.you made that statement implying that TC taking over a team with a bad record was something extraordinary.....when in fact it is the de-facto reason for a HC change .No, the point was that he had been here 8 seasons and they won two Super Bowls. That is a great achievement. It's even greater considering they where one of the worst teams when he got here. So firing a guy for having a bad record is understandable. Firing people after winning a Super Bowl just last year is not.

M00KIE
12-19-2012, 08:45 AM
To fire anyone is ******ed. I think you're all spoiled as hell to be honest.

DarkSaint
12-19-2012, 09:11 AM
People also don't like to admit that Eli has just as much to do with the call made at the snap of the ball as Gilbride, if not more. I don't know how true this is, but if the system stinks, it is basically a matter of picking your poison.
I though the third one was a replay at first, then was wondering why it was 4th down... LOL

Kruunch
12-19-2012, 11:26 AM
I wish the Giants front office would allow the offense to be run by a consensus from these boards for just one game.

Just to shut up the arm chair guys who think they know better than the guy who has been doing it at the highest level, longer than anyone in the league currently.

That'd be a fun game to watch :popcorn:

FlyingTruck
12-19-2012, 11:27 AM
The one problem that I've had with TC, and it's rarely brought up, is that he never takes control when things start going bad. At least from what I can tell from watching the games. But I've never seen him take over defensive/offensive play calling when the coordinators aren't getting it done.

Rudyy
12-19-2012, 11:27 AM
I wish the Giants front office would allow the offense to be run by a consensus from these boards for just one game.Just to shut up the arm chair guys who think they know better than the guy who has been doing it at the highest level, longer than anyone in the league currently.That'd be a fun game to watch :popcorn:Thay would be hilarious.

Rudyy
12-19-2012, 11:28 AM
The one problem that I've had with TC, and it's rarely brought up, is that he never takes control when things start going bad. At least from what I can tell from watching the games. But I've never seen him take over defensive/offensive play calling when the coordinators aren't getting it done.Coughlin also does not have a plan B as someone has stated on here.

Kruunch
12-19-2012, 11:43 AM
The one problem that I've had with TC, and it's rarely brought up, is that he never takes control when things start going bad. At least from what I can tell from watching the games. But I've never seen him take over defensive/offensive play calling when the coordinators aren't getting it done.

The last time he called Xs and Os was back in his Syracuse days. He's very coordinator dependent. It's not a particularly bad style ... just his style (of course this will add more fuel to the coordinator fire but ... ).

Toadofsteel
12-19-2012, 11:47 AM
I wish the Giants front office would allow the offense to be run by a consensus from these boards for just one game.

Just to shut up the arm chair guys who think they know better than the guy who has been doing it at the highest level, longer than anyone in the league currently.

That'd be a fun game to watch :popcorn:

There isn't really a consensus though... only thing we all believe in common about the playcalling is to stop calling the shotgun draw...

DarkSaint
12-19-2012, 11:50 AM
I wish the Giants front office would allow the offense to be run by a consensus from these boards for just one game.Just to shut up the arm chair guys who think they know better than the guy who has been doing it at the highest level, longer than anyone in the league currently.That'd be a fun game to watch :popcorn: no one here said we can do a better job than Killdrive. I feel that he can do better to improve his complex system to take the guess work out. If he can't be creative enough to design plays to get our guys open then we need to find someone who can.

Toadofsteel
12-19-2012, 11:53 AM
no one here said we can do a better job than Killdrive. I feel that he can do better to improve his complex system to take the guess work out. If he can't be creative enough to design plays to get our guys open then we need to find someone who can.

Umm... I believe I said once that the Ask Madden feature of Madden NFL could call a better game than Killdrive...

DarkSaint
12-19-2012, 11:56 AM
Umm... I believe I said once that the Ask Madden feature of Madden NFL could call a better game than Killdrive... Hahaha!! I believe you are right about that. I just didn't want to get into another lengthy debate.

Kruunch
12-19-2012, 11:57 AM
If he can't be creative enough to design plays to get our guys open then we need to find someone who can.

The other half of that equation is the players getting themselves open. And I don't think you're about to bench either Nicks or Cruz the instant they aren't able to produce.

Point is, people on these boards react to a lackluster performance and in grand American fashion, try to find a scape goat. While I won't say that KG is the best OC I've ever seen, I will say he is among the better ones. And I've gone through periods of "GRRRRR KILLDRIVE!!!!" myself. It's just important to remember not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

P.S. - Watch any team long enough (as fans do with their team) and you can predict every play and will notice "favorite" plays. Some are OC driven ... some are QB driven.

P.P.S. - Ever try to memorize a 1,000 page playbook? ROFL

Toadofsteel
12-19-2012, 11:58 AM
Hahaha!! I believe you are right about that. I just didn't want to get into another lengthy debate.

That said, I know I wouldnt be able to call a better game than him, because I can't even play madden for ****. For example, if I were in PF's position, "Dime Blitz" would be the phrase of ridicule, rather than "Shotgun Draw"...

But then again, i'm not making 6-7 figures to do this, either...

JesseJames
12-19-2012, 12:03 PM
ask Eagles and Ravens fans how firing the coordinator worked out for them. it continually blows my mind that under Coughlin and Eli the Giants haven't had a losing season, and have won 2 SBs, and people still aren't happy. And this in a town where we are witness to how difficult it is to have success in this league. not sure if its anti Coughlin or his coaches so much as it is with the unexplainable inconsistency from game to game, I've been a Giant fan for a long time and I can't remember this kind of inconsistency before. I can remember the Giants being consistently bad but not great one game and horrible the next like this one right now...

DarkSaint
12-19-2012, 12:08 PM
That said, I know I wouldnt be able to call a better game than him, because I can't even play madden for ****. For example, if I were in PF's position, "Dime Blitz" would be the phrase of ridicule, rather than "Shotgun Draw"...But then again, i'm not making 6-7 figures to do this, either... That and the dude can't even put the best personnel on the field.



Krunch.. It's just not Nicks, Cruz, Toomer, Plaxico and others, no one was able to get open. Are all these players at fault? At what point do you start to consider hey it can't be all these players, maybe it's the system. Plays take forever to develop but because of a crappy Oline, we don't have that leisure. Eli is forced to constantly fit his throws into tight windows. When Eli has time in the pocket he always finds the open man, check out his games against the saints, packers, TB, Cleveland,Carolina and San Fran. As a coordinator, against teams that bring pressure, he has to realize that Eli won't have time to accurately hit nicks 60 yards down field with a guy in his face. We need to implement the short dink and dunk offense and then take chances when they are available.

GameTime
12-19-2012, 12:12 PM
there are a lot of anti - TC members around here.
but we stay quiet for the most part
because after 8 years of trying to get rid of him , we know its not gonna happen
because the organization doesn't listen to us.

and we are outnumbered 1000 to 1 on these boards , so you must fear for your life when posting against TC.

they are Hobbits....blinded by the rings....they really think TC's coaching got us those rings.
instead of realizing that 2 mediocre teams over-achieved and got hot in the playoffs and gave him a free ride.

but posting about it , has become pointless.......as with most wisdom ,,,,it falls on deaf ears .
it's just not worth the hassel to argue about it.,,,,,,,they have strength in numbers.

hopefully this thread goes away before you get assassinated or burned at the stake .
so the HC as nothing to do with success???
I think the people in New Orleans woudl differ with you on that...

Imgrate
12-19-2012, 12:13 PM
I will repeat. If you have a problem with kg or pf then you inherently have a bigger problem with TC. Man up and accept it and vocalize your frustrations at the proper person.

Rudyy
12-19-2012, 12:16 PM
I will repeat. If you have a problem with kg or pf then you inherently have a bigger problem with TC. Man up and accept it and vocalize your frustrations at the proper person.Well yes, the problem is TC. He doesnt have a solution to when his (or the coordinators) game plan folds. He also does not have a solution to second half slumps.

freeoscar
12-19-2012, 01:03 PM
not sure if its anti Coughlin or his coaches so much as it is with the unexplainable inconsistency from game to game, I've been a Giant fan for a long time and I can't remember this kind of inconsistency before. I can remember the Giants being consistently bad but not great one game and horrible the next like this one right now...

I guess I dispute the concept that they really are all that inconsistent. Right now they are 8-6. The've played 9 games against playoff calibre teams, and are 4-5 in those games. They are 4-1 in the others, having barely lost 1 and won the others pretty comfortably. Let's use the Patriots as the standard bearer for consistency - they are 3-3 against playoff calibre teams, and 8-1 agains the others.
There is (and has been this way for years) very little separation at the top. Any playoff team can beat any other (as we saw last year when the Giants handily beat the 15-1 Packers).
As we knew at the start of the year, the Giants have had a very difficult schedule, and on an adjusted basis they've done about as well as anyone thus far. If they win the last 2 it will have been a pretty good season.

stormblue
12-19-2012, 01:07 PM
so the HC as nothing to do with success???
I think the people in New Orleans woudl differ with you on that...

big difference....
Sean Payton calls the plays and has a clue .
and i never said head coaches had nothing to do with a team's success.
and i also said i am tired of posting things that fall on deaf ears.
playing Nicks all year....bad decision.
over-using Bradshaw to the breakpoint .....bad decision
starting DD over Locklear...bad decision.....
those 3 decisions alone have cost us at least 2 games....and maybe a playoff birth.
and has left us with Nicks at 80% and Bradshaw maybe 60%

these are just a few of the things that go back ever since he got here.
everyone has forgotten Strahan..the near mutiny and the front office stepping in on Napolean.
like i said i'm done trying to wake you people up.please don't ask me anymore about it.....
i'm tired of it....and he's not going anywhere whether i like it or not.
but i'm sure there are Charger fans that understand my feelings....looks like they will finally get a reprieve.
yes 2 rings...in spite of him , not because of him
please do not respond to this because i have said it all before for over 3 years ,
and hasn't gotten me anywhere so ; i'm done with it.
the Hobbits have their coach and it's all good.

i still love my team.....not gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater.....go Giants

GameTime
12-19-2012, 01:23 PM
big difference....
Sean Payton calls the plays and has a clue .
and i never said head coaches had nothing to do with a team's success.
and i also said i am tired of posting things that fall on deaf ears.
playing Nicks all year....bad decision.
over-using Bradshaw to the breakpoint .....bad decision
starting DD over Locklear...bad decision.....
those 3 decisions alone have cost us at least 2 games....and maybe a playoff birth.
and has left us with Nicks at 80% and Bradshaw maybe 60%

these are just a few of the things that go back ever since he got here.
everyone has forgotten Strahan..the near mutiny and the front office stepping in on Napolean.
like i said i'm done trying to wake you people up.please don't ask me anymore about it.....
i'm tired of it....and he's not going anywhere whether i like it or not.
but i'm sure there are Charger fans that understand my feelings....looks like they will finally get a reprieve.
yes 2 rings...in spite of him , not because of him
please do not respond to this because i have said it all before for over 3 years ,
and hasn't gotten me anywhere so ; i'm done with it.
the Hobbits have their coach and it's all good.

i still love my team.....not gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater.....go Giants

yeah wahatever...you are always right and have been all along adf you get no credit......please Bro...we all have our opnions..
There is no way in hell overall that this team wins inspite of its HC or coordinators. its a team effort with winning and losing...

Buddy333
12-19-2012, 03:13 PM
Right. So he had brought this team two Super Bowl wins and he took over a team that was bad. He did all to in eight years. The is impressive and not accomplished very often.

Kruunch
12-19-2012, 03:42 PM
yeah wahatever...you are always right and have been all along adf you get no credit......please Bro...we all have our opnions..
There is no way in hell overall that this team wins inspite of its HC or coordinators. its a team effort with winning and losing...

Unless it's me ... I'm always right.

Duh. :cool: