PDA

View Full Version : OC and DC not whole problem...



NYtoSanDiego
12-23-2012, 09:44 PM
while i question gilbride at times its not entirely his fault. the pass offense this year hasn't been the same because of an unheathly nicks but also no manningham as well. in order for this pass offense to work at this time of the year you need three reliable wrs playing and knowing the concepts and not plug in players (eg:barden/randle/jernigan) not knowing the system. hopefully randle becomes that guy next year but look what happened after 08. nicks/mario/steve looked great after 8 games but issues popped up at the 2nd half of the year where mario and nicks weren't on the same page as eli. it took the core three a good two years to fully grasp the concepts which you hear a lot from gilbride. well what about cruz in 11, technically it was his first full year as a starter? yes, but he was with the team the year before and that time spent with eli during the lock out helped accelerating his learning curve or he could just be smart guy.

the OL has been an issue that we've been talking about for the past two to three years. it doesn't matter if nicks and cruz are at 100% and randle becomes the next mario, if eli doesn't have time for routes to develop and find the open receiver it doesn't matter because he will be off target or get sacked.

also the team changed after the brown injury and hasn't been the same. i think if brown stayed heathy we wouldn't be where we are right now. brown not only got yards after contact and knew how to hit the hole, he passed protected better than bradshaw but caught balls better in the backfield. he reminded me a lot of ward.

again like gilbride i question perry at times as well like the 3rd and 18 in the 2nd qtr but that was more of a great play call and busted coverage by rolle and webster. sometimes he plays zone too many times for me but he is very inflexible with his calls and concepts. he is a zone D type coach and that's why we match up well with teams like NE and GB because their offensive system attacks the D within a 5 - 20yd window. when other teams and players says there's holes they're talking about vertically and they'll attack beyond 20yds and you hope that the D line gets to the qb. this is where kenny is missed playing center field and while stevie has been great he doesn't cover the whole field the way kenny can, he can only cover a half. so when people said kenny doesn't get enough ints its because he was more of a pass deflection type safety because of what they asked him to do. yes he needs to change but it doesn't help when your system requires CB/SS that are quick and smart but also healthy. imagine if thomas wasn't lost for the season, or if kenny was healthy. how much better would webster,prince and rolle be.

and while we are quick to get rid of Killdrive just look at the steelers with haley, a new OC is not the answer. the answer for me is getting healthy players at the right time just like last year. football is a game of a few plays here and there that decide the outcome. what if mario and tyree doesn't make the catch. what if nicks doesn't get that last pass in the first half does it change how GB comes out in the 2nd?, how about the strip of osi on rodgers, or the fumble-kneeitis of williams in the nfc championship game. this is still a good footbal team that knows how to win, they just need to get healthy and its just sad that it couldn't happen again this year. here's the thing, if-IF they get in somehow, i have good feeling they can go far. maybe not all the way but they can make some noise.

domsgiants
12-23-2012, 10:01 PM
Your right its not all on the coaching but most of it is in my opinion. Are oline sucks pretty bad. And the d is just bad all around this year.

I put most of this on the coaches. Year after year we fall on are face come the middle of the season. You can't put that on the hads of anyone but this coaching staff. For the most part thats the only thing that dosent change along with the play calling.

nygpolishpunk
12-23-2012, 10:24 PM
Even though Eli hasn't been sacked all that much this year, he probably plays behind one of the worst O-lines in the league. He gets hurried into throws a lot more than the average QB, he's just gotten better at getting rid of the ball as opposed to taking a sack. That also explains most of his INTs.

The turning point this season was when Deihl had to go back into the lineup. The O-line just plain sucks with him in there.

dillyyo1972
12-23-2012, 10:29 PM
while i question gilbride at times its not entirely his fault. the pass offense this year hasn't been the same because of an unheathly nicks but also no manningham as well. in order for this pass offense to work at this time of the year you need three reliable wrs playing and knowing the concepts and not plug in players (eg:barden/randle/jernigan) not knowing the system. hopefully randle becomes that guy next year but look what happened after 08. nicks/mario/steve looked great after 8 games but issues popped up at the 2nd half of the year where mario and nicks weren't on the same page as eli. it took the core three a good two years to fully grasp the concepts which you hear a lot from gilbride. well what about cruz in 11, technically it was his first full year as a starter? yes, but he was with the team the year before and that time spent with eli during the lock out helped accelerating his learning curve or he could just be smart guy.

the OL has been an issue that we've been talking about for the past two to three years. it doesn't matter if nicks and cruz are at 100% and randle becomes the next mario, if eli doesn't have time for routes to develop and find the open receiver it doesn't matter because he will be off target or get sacked.

also the team changed after the brown injury and hasn't been the same. i think if brown stayed heathy we wouldn't be where we are right now. brown not only got yards after contact and knew how to hit the hole, he passed protected better than bradshaw but caught balls better in the backfield. he reminded me a lot of ward.

again like gilbride i question perry at times as well like the 3rd and 18 in the 2nd qtr but that was more of a great play call and busted coverage by rolle and webster. sometimes he plays zone too many times for me but he is very inflexible with his calls and concepts. he is a zone D type coach and that's why we match up well with teams like NE and GB because their offensive system attacks the D within a 5 - 20yd window. when other teams and players says there's holes they're talking about vertically and they'll attack beyond 20yds and you hope that the D line gets to the qb. this is where kenny is missed playing center field and while stevie has been great he doesn't cover the whole field the way kenny can, he can only cover a half. so when people said kenny doesn't get enough ints its because he was more of a pass deflection type safety because of what they asked him to do. yes he needs to change but it doesn't help when your system requires CB/SS that are quick and smart but also healthy. imagine if thomas wasn't lost for the season, or if kenny was healthy. how much better would webster,prince and rolle be.

and while we are quick to get rid of Killdrive just look at the steelers with haley, a new OC is not the answer. the answer for me is getting healthy players at the right time just like last year. football is a game of a few plays here and there that decide the outcome. what if mario and tyree doesn't make the catch. what if nicks doesn't get that last pass in the first half does it change how GB comes out in the 2nd?, how about the strip of osi on rodgers, or the fumble-kneeitis of williams in the nfc championship game. this is still a good footbal team that knows how to win, they just need to get healthy and its just sad that it couldn't happen again this year. here's the thing, if-IF they get in somehow, i have good feeling they can go far. maybe not all the way but they can make some noise.

I agree 100% with everything, but the Manningham aspect. DH is better and just as fast as MM while making difficult catches more often.

domsgiants
12-23-2012, 10:29 PM
That oline more then sucks

Redeyejedi
12-23-2012, 10:29 PM
Even though Eli hasn't been sacked all that much this year, he probably plays behind one of the worst O-lines in the league. He gets hurried into throws a lot more than the average QB, he's just gotten better at getting rid of the ball as opposed to taking a sack. That also explains most of his INTs.

The turning point this season was when Deihl had to go back into the lineup. The O-line just plain sucks with him in there.Eh some of the interceptions. Eli is just as much to blame as everyone else

Redeyejedi
12-23-2012, 10:32 PM
Speaking of Manningham he just tore his ACL in this Seahawks game

NYtoSanDiego
12-24-2012, 12:13 AM
Ok... You get a new OC and DC how long before both sides grasp the system? Getting new coordinators is not the answer, if anything keep them because it could be bad for a year or two and this team doesn't have time to wait that long for the players to get it. Get some help with OL, pray that nicks has a great rehab off season, pray that randle works in the off season, pray that terrel is back at 100%, pray that brown is back, pray that Kenny is back at 100%. Damn that's a lot of hail Mary's and our father's. After all that hopefully gilbride and fewell learns from this season after watching film.

Another issue that they were able to do well last year is in game and 2nd half adjustments. For whatever reason both offense and defense can't seem to adjust their gameplans. When I see gilbride, Eli and Carr look at film I still haven't seen them adjust to the D since the saints game.

FBomb
12-24-2012, 12:15 AM
There's plenty of blame to go around for everybody. Everyone can have seconds and thirds.

chasjay
12-24-2012, 12:23 AM
There's plenty of blame to go around for everybody. Everyone can have seconds and thirds.

More than plenty. I've been trying to think of a Giant or two who had a good game today. I know there have to be some, but I can't come up with the names at the moment.

I've never been one to blame the game plans (2 SB's in 5 years you know), but it seems that the opposing offenses are more familiar with our defensive schemes than our defenders are - and then it seems that the opposing defenses understand our offensive schemes and progressions better than the Giants' offensive players do. But that doesn't excuse the lack of execution by the Giants.

I'm just disgruntled at the moment. It will be gone by game time next Sunday.

moosedrool
12-24-2012, 12:42 AM
Agree with everything the OP said except the last line. How can we go far in the playoffs if we have our key players injured?

But this is one of the best posts summarizing the current state of the Giants.

NYtoSanDiego
12-24-2012, 12:35 PM
Agree with everything the OP said except the last line. How can we go far in the playoffs if we have our key players injured?

But this is one of the best posts summarizing the current state of the Giants.

true..., but somehow every giants fan would like to believe something could happen if they got it in. i've always said last year that if they got in when they were 7-7 they wouldn't let it go to waste because of what happened in 09 and 10 season.

i find it hard right now that this team could play with half of the teams that will be in the nfc playoffs but they do have a 50/50 shot with the other half that does get in. who knows get past the wild card and maybe you get actual players back and not the mopey ones that we've seen the past two games.

CruznNicks
12-24-2012, 12:45 PM
I dissagree with this post. Look what P. Manning is doing with Decker and Thomas. McNabb played at a high level with WR's named Thrash, Stinkston and Mitchell. Brady went to superbowls with no name WR's. Eli needs to make his recievers better and play at a elite level. Your WR's should never make your qb, instead your qb should make the reciever. By your logic, Nicks is the sole reason why Eli is stinking up the joint. Elite qb's don't need elite WR's to be great but great WR's need elite qb's to be successful. Don't believe me, ask Larry Fitz.

NYtoSanDiego
12-24-2012, 01:59 PM
I dissagree with this post. Look what P. Manning is doing with Decker and Thomas. McNabb played at a high level with WR's named Thrash, Stinkston and Mitchell. Brady went to superbowls with no name WR's. Eli needs to make his recievers better and play at a elite level. Your WR's should never make your qb, instead your qb should make the reciever. By your logic, Nicks is the sole reason why Eli is stinking up the joint. Elite qb's don't need elite WR's to be great but great WR's need elite qb's to be successful. Don't believe me, ask Larry Fitz.

who was nicks, cruz and mario before the SB to non giants fans and fantasy players? was there one that was in the top three in the NFL? please...

this offense needs all three wrs healthy and knowing the sytem in order for it to work especially at this time of the year.

also it doesn't matter if peyton or brady or rodgers is under center even future HOF need time to throw. when your O-line is leaky and only one receiver can get open it will make even peyton and brady look below avg. its amazing how people not even one year later forgot the nfc championship game with a healthy trio of wrs that new the system and eli still got the ball to them under constant pressure. no separation means no completion and sacks.

this was my post on another thread about eli development.

"he does need to be a little more flexible, there are games where the giants looks more like w.c.o. with their three and five step drops with slants and hooks but that's rare. 90% of the time i see wr running a go route then breaking it off for a hook or comeback route to the sideline, how many times have you seen cruz, nicks and hixon do that in the past two years? if the safety is helping up top and is cheating towards the sideline to break on the throw how many times do you see them change that go route with an option for a comeback into a deep in that's about 15yds down the field, this is-was a nicks specialty. when he's healthy you just see him sell the go or hook then plant and burst for the deep in where eli throws it high and you see nicks stretch both arms like he's going for a rebound. eli did this with plax as well. with cruz its a little easier he runs a lot of routes in the middle and sitting in open spots, or he'll run slants and a specialty of his is the switch routes that gilbride likes to run. if its man cruz continues to run the wheel route and he did that this year against the bucs or was that bennett, if its zone he will sit it about 5-10yds and turn around and wait for the ball.

this is where we and i miss mario. he wasn't brightest but man he was the best at running go and post routes which the defense had to account for. that's why i said in my post about OC and DC is not the problem but health and missing a few players. this offense or personel works best when you have three wr healthy but also knowing gilbrides site adjustment concepts. if only two is working and not the 3rd its not as productive as when all three are healthy and producing. yes, we had some moments with hixon, barden and randle taking that role moreso hixon but he isn't as explosive as mario. i just hope that randle becomes that player because the speed and size is there. how much different was the offense when nicks/cruz and mario was on the field last year?

this video illustrates exactly what i'm talking about how this offense needs three reliable wrs that know the system and concepts and its the first play and throw to mario. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-drive-...make-it-happen

it does make me wonder from the falcons and ravens game. if the protection isn't there why were they still running medium routes that needs time to develop. if you don't have time its more so the time to run a short passing game that allows the qb to get rid of the ball quicker. "