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View Full Version : Who had the most TD receptions this year Randle or Nicks?



jakegibbs
12-31-2012, 03:43 PM
Does anyone out there know the answer? I know Randle only was a spot player but would like to know.
Also how many games did Randle play vs Nicks this season?
Last question. Can Randle make us forget about the Manningham or is he lacking speed & agility like Barden.

NRC has a nice ring to it. Nicks/Randle/Cruz...... poor ole Ramses Barden guess he's the next Sr. Moss huh? hmmmmm..

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 03:45 PM
Both tied for 3 TDs. I think Randle is gonna be a nice player for us moving forward. Hopefully we can retain Nicks' services for the foreseeable future as well. Teams will struggle mightily against us if we have 3 top WRs.

rtlax
12-31-2012, 03:50 PM
Nicks being hurt all year really hurt the offense. When he is healthy he is unstoppable.(Third best playoff performance for a WR all time last year) Well, he has a nice long time to get healthy now. I agree Randle is a very nice player. I can only hope he spends the offseason living in Eli's basement sponging up as much as he can. With a healthy Nicks on one side, Randle on the other and Cruz in the slot the Giants are very dangerous.

jakegibbs
12-31-2012, 03:55 PM
Nicks being hurt all year really hurt the offense. When he is healthy he is unstoppable.(Third best playoff performance for a WR all time last year) Well, he has a nice long time to get healthy now. I agree Randle is a very nice player. I can only hope he spends the offseason living in Eli's basement sponging up as much as he can. With a healthy Nicks on one side, Randle on the other and Cruz in the slot the Giants are very dangerous.

Will he or will he not be as good as Manningham? That's the $64,000 dollar questions. Does he have the speed of a Manningham or is he more like Nicks?

Carter.525
12-31-2012, 04:01 PM
Randle's 2nd year is gonna be big.. kind of like Nick's 2nd

jakegibbs
12-31-2012, 04:02 PM
Both tied for 3 TDs. I think Randle is gonna be a nice player for us moving forward. Hopefully we can retain Nicks' services for the foreseeable future as well. Teams will struggle mightily against us if we have 3 top WRs.

Are you telling me that Nicks only caught 3 mesily TD passes in 16 regular season games? No wonder the Giants didn't make the playoffs this year. That's pothetic. He was a one year wonder I guess.

nhpgiantsfan
12-31-2012, 04:08 PM
Does anyone out there know the answer? I know Randle only was a spot player but would like to know.
Also how many games did Randle play vs Nicks this season?
Last question. Can Randle make us forget about the Manningham or is he lacking speed & agility like Barden.

NRC has a nice ring to it. Nicks/Randle/Cruz...... poor ole Ramses Barden guess he's the next Sr. Moss huh? hmmmmm..

Be careful, you are saying something half decent about Manningham. The vulchers and Hixon lovers are going to attack and tell you that Hixon out performed MM this year.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 04:09 PM
Are you telling me that Nicks only caught 3 mesily TD passes in 16 regular season games? No wonder the Giants didn't make the playoffs this year. That's pothetic. He was a one year wonder I guess.Thirteen regular season games. Regardless, Nicks struggled mightily this year.

Far from a one year wonder though.

Rookie: 800 yards

Next two seasons: consecutive 1000 yard seasons, and a dominant post season in 2011.

This year: injured and ineffictive.

Zaggs
12-31-2012, 04:10 PM
Will he or will he not be as good as Manningham? That's the $64,000 dollar questions. Does he have the speed of a Manningham or is he more like Nicks?

More like Nicks I believe. For what its worth, Randle's 40 time was slightly better than Manningham's. Then again if Randle can handle route running better than Manningham he'll easily be better. Note how Manningham didn't surpass his totals from last year.

giants8493
12-31-2012, 04:10 PM
Are you telling me that Nicks only caught 3 mesily TD passes in 16 regular season games? No wonder the Giants didn't make the playoffs this year. That's pothetic. He was a one year wonder I guess.not bad considering how hurt he was. Im, suprized he made it on the field at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 04:13 PM
Doesn't matter who we have, our system takes too long for plays to develop. Without a decent Oline we will struggle. Either we build a Oline or we design some short high percentage plays.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 04:25 PM
Doesn't matter who we have, our system takes too long for plays to develop.Which is a direct result from WRs that struggled getting open this year, an area that our receivers routinely did last year.

Dogg
12-31-2012, 04:48 PM
Are you telling me that Nicks only caught 3 mesily TD passes in 16 regular season games? No wonder the Giants didn't make the playoffs this year. That's pothetic. He was a one year wonder I guess.At least spell PATHETIC right....before you decide to bash....lol

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 04:52 PM
Right, why couldn't they get open? The Oline couldn't buy time for them to run their routes properly. So our system should have plays to compensate for this but we don't. The coaches refused to use the hurry up even though it was shown to work even in the games the offense struggled because of a weak Oline.

NorwoodBlue
12-31-2012, 04:58 PM
Randle is going to be a far better reciever than Manningam, his physical skills are better and he seems to grasp the system better already.

Hakeem Nicks was put on the field when he was too injured to play, a real problem for this team. During those late season games that we needed to win, Nicks was so ineffective that Cruz was constantly receiving extra attention. I agree when Nicks comes back healthy, the Randle, Nicks, Cruz trio will be incredible.

Toadofsteel
12-31-2012, 04:59 PM
If Killdrive shoehorns Randle into Manningham's old spot on the roster, it's not going to work.

Moving forward, you almost have to imagine that we have two Nickses. (sorry, I saw the Hobbit a couple days ago)

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 05:34 PM
Right, why couldn't they get open? The Oline couldn't buy time for them to run their routes properly. So our system should have plays to compensate for this but we don't. The coaches refused to use the hurry up even though it was shown to work even in the games the offense struggled because of a weak Oline.We do compensate for our OL's weakness, we surround Eli with a plethora of options that, when healthy, are incredibly difficult to defend. In terms of scheme, with frequency, we offer an outlet in the flat for Eli to get the ball to if there is a lot of pressure.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 05:45 PM
We do compensate for our OL's weakness, we surround Eli with a plethora of options that, when healthy, are incredibly difficult to defend. In terms of scheme, with frequency, we offer an outlet in the flat for Eli to get the ball to if there is a lot of pressure. I really don't understand? who is that outlet? Bradshaw? He is too busy blocking. See our system actually reduces the options available for our QB. We are taking a potential weapon away from Eli by having him block. Nicks wasn't healthy but he was rushed back even after Barden and Randle had big games (took more options away form Eli).. We also aren't really compensating for a bad Oline because we still have eli throw 40 yards down field. Wait, I saw one play that was designed to compensate for a weak oline. They had Eli roll out to his right and then he overthrew Nicks 65 yards down field. Yep they designed a play to compensate for weak oline but they had eli use his legs. Way to go coaching staff for your player's strengths. We don't really have quick, short yard, high % pass plays, if the playbook is garbage, no amount of talent at wr will compensate for it especially when compounded by a weak oline.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 05:59 PM
I really don't understand? who is that outlet? Bradshaw? He is too busy blocking. See our system actually reduces the options available for our QB. We are taking a potential weapon away from Eli by having him block. Nicks wasn't healthy but he was rushed back even after Barden and Randle had big games (took more options away form Eli).. We also aren't really compensating for a bad Oline because we still have eli throw 40 yards down field. Wait, I saw one play that was designed to compensate for a weak oline. They had Eli roll out to his right and then he overthrew Nicks 65 yards down field. Yep they designed a play to compensate for weak oline but they had eli use his legs. Way to go coaching staff for your player's strengths. We don't really have quick, short yard, high % pass plays, if the playbook is garbage, no amount of talent at wr will compensate for it especially when compounded by a weak oline.So let me get this straight, our OL is weak, but you don't want Bradshaw in to block. Our OL is weak so you want screens and slants used very frequently. I got it, you want the Cardinals offense. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the only thing different between this year and last year is a lack of playmaking from our WRs. Our OL has given up less sacks this year, and has gotten better play from the tackles. If we ran screens and slants any more then we already do, our offense wouldn't be effective, it'd be just as putrid as the Cardinals offense that operates within ten yards of the line of scrimmage.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 06:01 PM
I think that if you only rewatched the games, with your eye specifically on line play versus route development, you would see a whole different picture. Start with Baltimore.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 06:06 PM
So let me get this straight, our OL is weak, but you don't want Bradshaw in to block. Our OL is weak so you want screens and slants used very frequently. I got it, you want the Cardinals offense. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the only thing different between this year and last year is a lack of playmaking from our WRs. Our OL has given up less sacks this year, and has gotten better play from the tackles. If we ran screens and slants any more then we already do, our offense wouldn't be effective, it'd be just as putrid as the Cardinals offense that operates within ten yards of the line of scrimmage. I was trying to show you that Eli's options are limited because of our weak oline. The Steelers have had weak olines and saw that Ben taking all these hits would have shortened his career. They didn't go out and get a blocking RB. That is all.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 06:09 PM
I was trying to show you that Eli's options are limited because of our weak oline. The Steelers have had weak olines and saw that Ben taking all these hits would have shortened his career. They didn't go out and get a blocking RB. That is all.This is a great example of what I'm talking about. In an attempt to reduce the hits on Big Ben, Todd Haley implemented an offensive scheme that was dink and dunk at its core. Big Ben himself has expressed displeasure in the scheme, and as a whole, the Steelers offense was very weak and stagnant.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 06:14 PM
The OC among many other things is a failure at player evaluation and the only adjustments he makes is shotgun draw. Like I said before without a stronger Oline play or a new OC who can design better plays our O will struggle. It doesnt matter who we have at receiver.
Just look at the games that our O had success and the games the O struggled. The games we did well (with or without Nicks) were games the Oline actually did well in pass protection and the games that we struggled were where we were unable to pass block. Pit, CIncy, Dallas, ATL, Balt and the first Phil game. Again it wont matter who we have at receiver if we can't pass block or design better plays..

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 06:16 PM
This is a great example of what I'm talking about. In an attempt to reduce the hits on Big Ben, Todd Haley implemented an offensive scheme that was dink and dunk at its core. Big Ben himself has expressed displeasure in the scheme, and as a whole, the Steelers offense was very weak and stagnant. They didn't really look stagnant against us, Ben had only 4 ints the entire year. Their Defense took a hit because of their age and injuries That is the reason why Pit is outside and looking in,

RoanokeFan
12-31-2012, 06:22 PM
Are you telling me that Nicks only caught 3 mesily TD passes in 16 regular season games? No wonder the Giants didn't make the playoffs this year. That's pothetic. He was a one year wonder I guess.

He missed games due to injuries and was hobbled for the games in which he did play. Plus Randle score two of his three yesterday.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 07:00 PM
They didn't really look stagnant against us, Ben had only 4 ints the entire year. Their Defense took a hit because of their age and injuries That is the reason why Pit is outside and looking in,The passing offense in general, which is the main was pretty stagnant vs. the Giants. Wallace's 51 yard TD, where the ball traveled in the air for 3 yards, was the only notable play that Ben made. Wallace, using his strength as a WR (speed) outran our whole entire team. Isaac Redman was the bright spot of their offense that day, but we're discussing our OL as it pertains to our passing game.

And here are the numbers for Pittsburgh's defense:
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at65312PM_zps9eebbe3e.png

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 07:03 PM
And just so we are clear, I doubt that Haley drew that slant up as a TD play, and even if he did, the Giants don't possess a guy with that type of speed anyway. Overall, Pittsburgh dink and dunk offense ranked 21st in the league. Our offense, with an ineffective Nicks ranked in at 14th in the league.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 08:09 PM
Alright, i'll concede that Pit didn't make the playoffs because of their aging defense which you proved (with stats) was near the top of the league. Kudos!
i should have checked the stats before making that statement. Now just look at the games that our O had success and the games the O struggled. The games we did well (with or without Nicks) were games the Oline actually did well in pass protection and the games that we struggled were where we were unable to pass block. Pit, CIncy, Dallas, ATL, Balt and the first Phil game. Again it wont matter who we have at receiver if we can't pass block or design better plays. Again, with the current system in place, we can't succeed against the better defenses without a new plan of attack. This has been the case even last year. Why Eli hasn't thrown for 30 td passes in a season yet. He threw 18 td passes in 5 games and 8 in the other 11. We get better online play and a system that can take advantage of our strengths and cover our weaknesses, we'll see more of those 5 games and 18td passes.

Also I never said that we should change our entire playbook and implement only the dink and dunk system. We need to add short pass plays when the Oline is having trouble blocking, This will open up the big pass plays as well. A stronger Oline will also improve our running game, i agree we won without it but it will help open things up for our WRs. All this depends on better oline play.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 08:46 PM
First Drive: INT from a bad read


Second Drive: Missed FG, nothing bad about the play calling, nice drive overall.


Third Drive: first play was a bomb that was inches from being completed. OL pass protected just fine. End result was a sack (see pictures) after Gilbride had both TEs chip and no one got open. http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at82726PM_zpsb3f77031.png


Fourth Drive: lack of separation by Nicks leads to an INT by Thomas DeCoud, a safety who had no trouble blanketing him.


Fifth Drive: Pressure gets to Eli because instead of leaving Wilson in to block, we let him run into the flat and he dropped Eli's dump off. After Lumpkin's first down, Eli had a great throwing lane, but no one was open and his throw to Jernigan was incomplete (see pictures, where Jernigan is on Eli's deep right).
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at83146PM_zps36cc2daf.png http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at83235PM_zps4a29507a.png


Sixth Drive: Wilson couldn't track a dump off, Nicks catches a slant for a nice gain, Eli has a nice completion to Hixon where the drive was extended, but ultimately couldn't convert a 4th and short deep in Falcon's territory.


As soon as they get into the second half, there is no point for me to continue this post because they are down 24-0 and there is absolutely no reason to run a slant in heavy zones. If you run a slant/screen in these situations it's either gonna be:


-Caught and tackled -- clock keeps ticking
-Jumped -- more turnovers
-Tipped and picked -- more turnovers
-Receivers get killed -- more 60 mL cortisone shots

AntB
12-31-2012, 09:23 PM
There's talk that the Cardinals might want to trade Fitgerald. Before I give big money and a long contract to Cruz I would try to trade for Fitgerald. Nicks, Fitzgerald, Hixon, Randall = Pretty Tough receiver; Maybe Super Bowl.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 09:24 PM
First Drive: INT from a bad read

Bad read or a good play by the defense because they knew where the ball was going? you can blame that on Asante's knowledge of Eli or the giants playboook.




Second Drive: Missed FG, nothing bad about the play calling, nice drive overall.

I agree, with the missed FG, but that drive was made possible because of our Running.. ATL wanted to shutdown our passing and allowed us to get some big first downs with our running game.



Third Drive: first play was a bomb that was inches from being completed. OL pass protected just fine. End result was a sack (see pictures) after Gilbride had both TEs chip and no one got open.


All this proves is that the Oline is not perfect at being garbage, which it is.



Fourth Drive: lack of separation by Nicks leads to an INT by Thomas DeCoud, a safety who had no trouble blanketing him.

That was a perfect throw, would have hit Nicks in stride, but the DB a safety no less blanketed Nicks, who was injured, or they knew our plays. Again our system and the OC.



Fifth Drive: Pressure gets to Eli because instead of leaving Wilson in to block, we let him run into the flat and he dropped Eli's dump off. After Lumpkin's first down, Eli had a great throwing lane, but no one was open and his throw to Jernigan was incomplete (see pictures, where Jernigan is on Eli's deep right).

That's the oline, why does it require us to leave our RB to block. That's a weapon that we should use in our running game or short passing attack. Goes to prove what I said earlier, that our oline is taking weapons away from Eli,




Sixth Drive: Wilson couldn't track a dump off, Nicks catches a slant for a nice gain, Eli has a nice completion to Hixon where the drive was extended, but ultimately couldn't convert a 4th and short deep in Falcon's territory.
This is why we need to have more short high percentage plays in our playbook. Another reason we have been hurt in the redzone.



As soon as they get into the second half, there is no point for me to continue this post because they are down 24-0 and there is absolutely no reason to run a slant in heavy zones. If you run a slant/screen in these situations it's either gonna be:


-Caught and tackled -- clock keeps ticking
-Jumped -- more turnovers
-Tipped and picked -- more turnovers
-Receivers get killed -- more 60 mL cortisone shots

Is the Slant the only short pass play? im sure we should be able to draw up some short pass plays for the RB, TE and the 3rd wr. A good short passing game used like a running game will open things up for our long pass plays. Im not saying that we can't win with our players, we have, but we should get 10-12 wins and more consistency from our O if we had a better playbook to counter teams that bring pressure.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 09:37 PM
Bad read or a good play by the defense because they knew where the ball was going? you can blame that on Asante's knowledge of Eli or the giants playboook.




I agree, with the missed FG, but that drive was made possible because of our Running.. ATL wanted to shutdown our passing and allowed us to get some big first downs with our running game.




All this proves is that the Oline is not perfect at being garbage, which it is.



That was a perfect throw, would have hit Nicks in stride, but the DB a safety no less blanketed Nicks, who was injured, or they knew our plays. Again our system and the OC.



That's the oline, why does it require us to leave our RB to block. That's a weapon that we should use in our running game or short passing attack. Goes to prove what I said earlier, that our oline is taking weapons away from Eli,



This is why we need to have more short high percentage plays in our playbook. Another reason we have been hurt in the redzone.



Is the Slant the only short pass play? im sure we should be able to draw up some short pass plays for the RB, TE and the 3rd wr. A good short passing game used like a running game will open things up for our long pass plays. Im not saying that we can't win with our players, we have, but we should get 10-12 wins and more consistency from our O if we had a better playbook to counter teams which bring pressure.You don't get it. The first six drives of the offense showed absolutely no restrictions on the OL at all. Are you seriously asking why we keep backs or TEs in to block? You should realize this happens absolutely everywhere in the NFL!


The OL as a means of limitation is what you're arguing here:


The games we did well (with or without Nicks) were games the Oline actually did well in pass protection and the games that we struggled were where we were unable to pass block. .

And here:



Yep they designed a play to compensate for weak oline but they had eli use his legs. Way to go coaching staff for your player's strengths. We don't really have quick, short yard, high % pass plays, if the playbook is garbage, no amount of talent at wr will compensate for it especially when compounded by a weak oline.


And here:



Right, why couldn't they get open? The Oline couldn't buy time for them to run their routes properly. So our system should have plays to compensate for this but we don't. The coaches refused to use the hurry up even though it was shown to work even in the games the offense struggled because of a weak Oline.

Yet on the first six drives, that isn't imminent at all. Eli is getting the ball to the WRs, and they are not making plays OR not getting open. Who has an OL that allows 5 receivers in the formation every play?

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 09:49 PM
You don't get it. The first six drives of the offense showed absolutely no restrictions on the OL at all. Are you seriously asking why we keep backs or TEs in to block? You should realize this happens absolutely everywhere in the NFL!


The OL as a means of limitation is what you're arguing here:



And here:





And here:




Yet on the first drive, that isn't imminent at all. Eli is getting the ball to the WRs, and they are not making plays OR not getting open. Who has an OL that allows 5 receivers in the formation every play?

So you are seriously saying that our Oline is great and is team strength?

And are you also saying that the TE can' be used in a passing game? And where in all this did I say that the TE shouldn't be used to block? please stop putting words in my mouth.

Our Oline stinks, they don't buy us time for the receivers to get open in our complicated read and react system. Eli had 18 TD passes in 5 or 6 games and 8 in the other 10 or 11 games. I guarantee you, the 5 or 6 games were when he had time to throw the ball. The carolina game, TB, Cle, 2nd Phil game, GB and NO.
now compare that to the games where the Oline couldnt pass block and our receivers had trouble getting open in the 2 seconds eli had to get rid of the ball.
Dallas, Cincy, Baltimore, Pitt, ATL(have to recheck this but they knew what plays we were running) 1st ph game,

The fact of the matter is, you improve our oline and we will have big games by our qb and our wrs. But if the oline is garbage again, we need to design better plays to counter our weaknesses. I don't know what is so difficult to understand here.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 10:04 PM
The fact of the matter is, you improve our oline and we will have big games by our qb and our wrs. But if the oline is garbage again, we need to design better plays to counter our weaknesses. I don't know what is so difficult to understand here.Our OL was improved from last year in terms of sacks. Instead of having two absolutely putrid tackles, we had a solid LT, and decent play from Locklear for a while.


so are you saying that the TE can' be used in a passing game? And where in all this did I say that the TE shouldn't be used to block? please stop putting words in my mouth.I'm not putting words in your mouth, you've been adamant that we are wasting a weapon for Eli when a RB stays in to block, meaning the same applies when a TE stays in to block.



So you are seriously saying that our Oline is great and is team strength?No, my point -- which should be clear at this point -- is that the ineffectiveness of our WRs this year has been far more detrimental to our offense, than our OL's performance. It should be noted that we've allowed a considerably less amount of sacks this year compared to last year.


Our Oline stinks, not sure what is so hard to understand here, they don't buy us time for the receivers to get open in our complicated read and react system.What isn't understood should also be clear. I've provided plenty evidence, as well as logic, to the contrary, and yet you still don't see where I am coming from.


Now your new claims are that they "know our plays," which jives with absolutely nothing you've said before. If our "complicated read and react system" is as you claim, how could somebody know our plays? I understand what your premise is, fix the OL = fix the offense, but you seem to be deeply disturbed by my claim that if our WRs perform better, the offense is fixed. At the very least, support your argument with something other than opinions. If I really wanted to, I could say "our offense performed well when the WRs performed well," like you did here:
The games we did well (with or without Nicks) were games the Oline actually did well in pass protection and the games that we struggled were where we were unable to pass block. .

But I'm going to stick with logical, and tangible claims.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 10:11 PM
Right, why couldn't they get open? The Oline couldn't buy time for them to run their routes properly.One of your initial claims, which I've clearly demonstrated wasn't true in one of the games (Atlanta, Week 15) you said we couldn't pass protect.

The only thing you've managed to do in this thread is damage your credibility. You've taken all of our losses and bad games and generalized them into "the OL sucked" category. Now, when confronted with the ATL game, you switch it up.

"They knew our plays"


PUH-LEEZE!

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 10:24 PM
our receivers had trouble getting open in the 2 seconds eli had to get rid of the ball.Like I said, go back and re-watch the games. Initial looks will never lead to an accurate recall of a game, and I think you've made this painfully clear in this thread.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 10:49 PM
I have a restriction of 1 attachment per post so Im going to post 3 times.


Our OL was improved from last year in terms of sacks. Instead of having two absolutely putrid tackles, we had a solid LT, and decent play from Locklear for a while. .
Since when is allowing sacks the only way to assess the play of OL? The lack of sacks is because of Eliís skill to avoid pressure. The picture below was from the TB game, he was pressured by a 3 man rush, it didnít result in a sack but in an INT because the OL couldnít block 3 guys, Eli had to rush his throw and it resulted in an INT.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 10:50 PM
You canít measure a OL just based on how many sacks they allow, If you canít understand that, then there is no point with continuing this argument.

The Steelers game was another great example, although they only got 2 sacks, the OL was putrid.
Here Manning couldnít even complete a 7 step drop and he was hit by Cameron heyward.
Cameron Hayward and LaMarr Woodley collapse the right side of the line (big surprise by now, right?) and Steve McLendon gets penetration up the middle while Manning couldnít find anyone open.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 10:50 PM
Some of the receivers were double covered with so much pressure by a simple 4 man rush. This play didnít result in a sack but the OL was terrible and it allowed eli to get hit before he had time to set up the play. Sacks allowed is a misleading stat especially if that is the sole query in your assesment. The OL was putrid and has been for awhile. Eli does a great job hanging in or just throwing the ball away, sure he does force throws which result in Ints. But thatís because our fool of an OC is calling for 40 yard in the air pass plays when he knows that the OL canít block..

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 10:51 PM
I'm not putting words in your mouth, you've been adamant that we are wasting a weapon for Eli when a RB stays in to block, meaning the same applies when a TE stays in to block .
Seriously, you’re joking right?
.



No, my point -- which should be clear at this point -- is that the ineffectiveness of our WRs this year has been far more detrimental to our offense, than our OL's performance. It should be noted that we've allowed a considerably less amount of sacks this year compared to last year. .

We gave up 28 sacks last year and 20 this past year, definitely a considerable amount less, but Eli manning has been the highest pressured qb in the league the last 2 years. As shown earlier, Sacks isn’t the end all be all stat to assess a OL.


What isn't understood should also be clear. I've provided plenty evidence, as well as logic, to the contrary, and yet you still don't see where I am coming from.
No what you did was select a few plays from a bleacher report article covering our shutout loss to ATL. I’ve shown you 2 games where the other team brought pressure without getting sacks but were directly responsible for bad play by OL.



Now your new claims are that they "know our plays," which jives with absolutely nothing you've said before. If our "complicated read and react system" is as you claim, how could somebody know our plays? I understand what your premise is, fix the OL = fix the offense, but you seem to be deeply disturbed by my claim that if our WRs perform better, the offense is fixed. At the very least, support your argument with something other than opinions. If I really wanted to, I could say "our offense performed well when the WRs performed well," like you did here:

But I'm going to stick with logical, and tangible claims.

Again, I like how you pick and choose what you want to reply to, of all the examples I brought you select the ones that were basically added to strengthen the foundation of my arguments. Do you suffer from ADD? I have to ask because I mean I made no new claims, I’ll REPEAT it again, still don’t see why it’s so complicated for you, you can put in 2 healthy nicks but if the OL can’t block our O is going to have a bad game. Do you disagree with this?

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 10:54 PM
I want to add, that with proper game plan and with our WR corp, we can overcome our ol weakness. If we get a decent replacement for diehl and BAAS, Snee gets healthy our OL can improve and it will make it easier for our WR group to perform the way they should. Nicks is my 2nd favorite player on the team i hope he is healthy next year because we have a lot of weapons and he makes them go. I mean teams were triple covering Cruz because they didnt have to worry about bradshaw who was looking to see who his blocking assignment was. LOL

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 11:00 PM
One of your initial claims, which I've clearly demonstrated wasn't true in one of the games (Atlanta, Week 15) you said we couldn't pass protect.

The only thing you've managed to do in this thread is damage your credibility. You've taken all of our losses and bad games and generalized them into "the OL sucked" category. Now, when confronted with the ATL game, you switch it up.

"They knew our plays"


PUH-LEEZE!

Shows that you totally ignored my argument and concentrated on select few plays in a game we got shutout. Way to bring your points across, Now did you expect a trophy for sitting on the tv and watching the couch on sundays?

I mean some of the things you said makes absolutely no sense.
The TE shouldn't be used in the passing game.
The RB is actually a OL man and shouldnt be used as runner or in the passing game, only to block.
Our OL is actually great, Eli can drop back get hit and should be able to complete the play if we had better receivers who can create separation in 2 seconds that the OL allows our QB.
Our OC should continue to force the ball to 40 yards down even though the DEs are parked in our backfield.
Unbelievable.. how long have you been watching your couch?

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:01 PM
I have a restriction of 1 attachment per post so Im going to post 3 times.


Since when is allowing sacks the only way to assess the play of OL? The lack of sacks is because of Eli’s skill to avoid pressure. The picture below was from the TB game, he was pressured by a 3 man rush, it didn’t result in a sack but in an INT because the OL couldn’t block 3 guys, Eli had to rush his throw and it resulted in an INT.Lol, the OL had that play blocked just fine. Eli had all the room to step up and hit Nicks. Can't blame the OL for a bad read, and a bad throw, especially when they had a beautiful step up lane. Not to mention, there was a huge missed call on the defense.

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at105742PM_zpsf2e6d625.png

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at105614PM_zpsa1f2b932.png

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 11:08 PM
Lol, the OL had that play blocked just fine. Eli had all the room to step up and hit Nicks. Can't blame the OL for a bad read, and a bad throw, especially when they had a beautiful step up lane. Not to mention, there was a huge missed call on the defense.

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at105742PM_zpsf2e6d625.png

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at105614PM_zpsa1f2b932.png

Not the play i brought up.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:08 PM
Seriously, you’re joking right?Are TEs not weapons all of a sudden?




We gave up 28 sacks last year and 20 this past year, definitely a considerable amount less, but Eli manning has been the highest pressured qb in the league the last 2 years. As shown earlier, Sacks isn’t the end all be all stat to assess a OL.Okay, and the pressure clearly didn't faze him in 2011. You realize that the only offensive variable that is substantially different is the health of our WRs, namely Nicks, our best one.



No what you did was select a few plays from a bleacher report article covering our shutout loss to ATL. I’ve shown you 2 games where the other team brought pressure without getting sacks but were directly responsible for bad play by OL.
Blecher Report? Show me a link.



Again, I like how you pick and choose what you want to reply to, of all the examples I brought you select the ones that were basically added to strengthen the foundation of my arguments. Do you suffer from ADD? I have to ask because I mean I made no new claims, I’ll REPEAT it again, still don’t see why it’s so complicated for you, you can put in 2 healthy nicks but if the OL can’t block our O is going to have a bad game. Do you disagree with this?You're lucky I don't address some of your claims! The one where you say our the 4th down we didn't convert vs Atlanta was because we don't have a short game...you realize Eli got outside the pocket and Victor Cruz dropped like a 3 yard throw? Is that not short enough for you?

And please cut the personal insults. ADD? Really? Quit with the non sequiturs, and changing your argument and then I'll stop addressing empty claims.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:10 PM
Not the play i brought up.Lmfao, thanks for proving to me that even you don't know what plays you're posting. It most certainly is.

Edit: and oh, just to add to this, wether it was or wasn't the same play, if you really subscribed to your own claim, the flaws your trying to point out should have been evident regardless. Clearly, you didn't see them, which would explain why you resort to saying it's the wrong play, rather than hammering in your point.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:14 PM
Some of the receivers were double covered with so much pressure by a simple 4 man rush. This play didn’t result in a sack but the OL was terrible and it allowed eli to get hit before he had time to set up the play. Sacks allowed is a misleading stat especially if that is the sole query in your assesment. The OL was putrid and has been for awhile. Eli does a great job hanging in or just throwing the ball away, sure he does force throws which result in Ints. But that’s because our fool of an OC is calling for 40 yard in the air pass plays when he knows that the OL can’t block..They blocked fine when Eli threw the ball to Nicks vs Atlanta.

They blocked fine when Cruz dropped a perfectly placed ball vs Cinci.

Again, last year, our OL gave up a **** load of pressure, and more sacks. We won the SB.

This year, our OL gives up a **** load of pressure, and less sacks. We miss the playoffs, and have a lot of issues on offense. Hmm...what could the difference be?

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 11:16 PM
Lmfao, thanks for proving to me that even you don't know what plays you're posting. It most certainly is. No, thank you for proving that you don't now what you are copying and pasting, Cmon Man your picture was for the int intended for Nicks, mine was when he missed cruz because bennett hit him in no time flat while he threw the ball. , LOL

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:18 PM
I want to add, that with proper game plan and with our WR corp, we can overcome our ol weakness. If we get a decent replacement for diehl and BAAS, Snee gets healthy our OL can improve and it will make it easier for our WR group to perform the way they should. Nicks is my 2nd favorite player on the team i hope he is healthy next year because we have a lot of weapons and he makes them go. I mean teams were triple covering Cruz because they didnt have to worry about bradshaw who was looking to see who his blocking assignment was. LOLOkay, and with a healthy Nicks, and production from the 3rd receiver spot, we can overshadow the OL weaknesses in the same manner that we did when we won the SB last year.

Regardless, Bradshaw will pass block, every all-around RB in the NFL does this regularly, and I can't believe I have to cover that point.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:19 PM
No, thank you for proving that you don't now what you are copying and pasting, Cmon Man your picture was for the int intended for Nicks, mine was when he missed cruz because bennett hit him in no time flat while he threw the ball. , LOLOh okay, so then in my post you agree with what I'm saying? You're saying I have a point?

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:27 PM
Shows that you totally ignored my argument and concentrated on select few plays in a game we got shutout. Way to bring your points across, Now did you expect a trophy for sitting on the tv and watching the couch on sundays?

I mean some of the things you said makes absolutely no sense.
The TE shouldn't be used in the passing game.
The RB is actually a OL man and shouldnt be used as runner or in the passing game, only to block.
Our OL is actually great, Eli can drop back get hit and should be able to complete the play if we had better receivers who can create separation in 2 seconds that the OL allows our QB.
Our OC should continue to force the ball to 40 yards down even though the DEs are parked in our backfield.
Unbelievable.. how long have you been watching your couch?What are you talking about? When did I say the TE shouldn't be used in the passing game? When did I say the RB is actually an OL man? When did I say the OL was great? And I've already demonstrated (from the ATL game where you said the OL couldn't block) that we aren't forcing plays due to the weakness along the OL.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 11:27 PM
They blocked fine when Eli threw the ball to Nicks vs Atlanta.

They blocked fine when Cruz dropped a perfectly placed ball vs Cinci.

Did you really watch the cincy game? LOL
Eli was sacked 4 times and the 2 ints were because of heavy pressure, one of them was tipped. LOL Cruz did drop a sure TD, but that was one play. How about the constant pressure Eli was under the entire game?

Our best in the business OC couldnt come up with anything to help, i mean eli showed him what to do at the end of the first half but the our oC is blind as well as dumb.



Again, last year, our OL gave up a **** load of pressure, and more sacks. We won the SB.

This year, our OL gives up a **** load of pressure, and less sacks. We miss the playoffs, and have a lot of issues on offense. Hmm...what could the difference be?


We won 9 games last year the same as this year with a more difficult schedule. there goes your argument. Our defense was also worse, The only thing that was constant is our Oline was garbage and still is garbage. Are you also attributing a lack of our running game to our WR corp?

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:37 PM
We won 9 games last year the same as this year with a more difficult schedule. there goes your argument. Our defense was also worse, The only thing that was constant is our Oline was garbage and still is garbage. Are you also attributing a lack of our running game to our WR corp?Our running game went from being ranked worst in the league last year to 14th in the league this year. We also played a first round schedule this year, as opposed to last year.


As for the Cincy game, you've already said one was tipped so that is partially on the WR, and the other one was to a DT after Eli decided not to throw to Brown in the flat (yeah, go short game!) http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at113651PM_zps72278666.png

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:46 PM
You canít measure a OL just based on how many sacks they allow, If you canít understand that, then there is no point with continuing this argument.

The Steelers game was another great example, although they only got 2 sacks, the OL was putrid.
Here Manning couldnít even complete a 7 step drop and he was hit by Cameron heyward.
Cameron Hayward and LaMarr Woodley collapse the right side of the line (big surprise by now, right?) and Steve McLendon gets penetration up the middle while Manning couldnít find anyone open.You realize that thumbnail shows the pressure after Eli surveyed the WHOLE ENTIRE right side of the progression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8YloubZtVY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:48 PM
No, thank you for proving that you don't now what you are copying and pasting, Cmon Man your picture was for the int intended for Nicks, mine was when he missed cruz because bennett hit him in no time flat while he threw the ball. , LOLAnd yeah, regardless of your answer to my question to this post, which you'd pathetically deny in the attempt to maintain just a shred of credibility and dignity, let me prove to you it's the same play.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBnusZhVp5U&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Now, who doesn't know what pictures they're posting? BTW, still waiting on that "bleacher report link."

LMAO

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 11:48 PM
How is a tipped pass on the WR? The DL tipped the pass and IIRC it was on that play you just posted. The DL raising his hands blocking Eli's view of Andre Brown. Again, if we have so many short plays, why don't they work? With the pressure eli was facing he doesn't have the time to go through his reads espcially with DL with raised arms in his face.

DarkSaint
12-31-2012, 11:53 PM
You realize that thumbnail shows the pressure after Eli surveyed the WHOLE ENTIRE right side of the progression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8YloubZtVY&feature=youtube_gdata_player look at the clock dude, he got the ball in :08 and then threw it by .11 seconds on the video,if that's normal speed, Eli had 3 seconds to survey the field and throw while getting hit. Does this prove that the OL played great there?

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:53 PM
The DL tipped the pass and IIRC it was on that play you just posted. Lol "IIRC," and you're asking me if I remember the Cincy game. Anyway, what happened on this play was Eli doing a spin in the pocket, and then lofting a pass up for the DT to intercept.

And I'm not the one advocating for a short game, you are. I am well aware that we offer Eli an outlet more than enough, something you seem to have stored in your mind as "RB ALWAYS BLOCKS AND NEVER RUNS ROUTES."

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 11:57 PM
look at the clock dude, he got the ball in :08 and then threw it by .11 seconds on the video,if that's normal speed, Eli had 3 seconds to survey the field and throw while getting hit. Does this prove that the OL played great there?The center snaps the ball at 3:13 and throws it at 3:09

That's four seconds, and very adequate for an OL. It most certainly isn't
our receivers had trouble getting open in the 2 seconds eli had to get rid of the ball

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:01 AM
By the way, you still haven't provided the Bleacher Report link you said I copied an pasted from.

And while we're at it, you've demonstrated a pathetic inability to understand the attachments you posted (Pittsburgh's pocket time, and the Buccaneers play), which leads me to believe that you are the one that's copying and pasting.

DarkSaint
01-01-2013, 12:07 AM
And yeah, regardless of your answer to my question to this post, which you'd pathetically deny in the attempt to maintain just a shred of credibility and dignity, let me prove to you it's the same play.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBnusZhVp5U&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Now, who doesn't know what pictures they're posting? BTW, still waiting on that "bleacher report link."

LMAO Are you really this stupid, are we arguing about who the int was to instead of why it was caused?
Are you trying to deflect? aight let me show you.. in your link

See that Giants on the floor, that's Cruz whom eli overthrew because of the pressure and not Nicks.

Seriously, you tried to put words in my mouth and then questioned my intelligence because of a link i posted. You are a total fail dude, can't debate properly because you don't even know what to debate. You wanted to discuss the play I brought up but you brought a different play to use as discussion.. That was ignorance on your part or you willfully tried to mislead, you're either stupid or a liar or both. No point in debating with someone who doesn't even now what to argue.

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:12 AM
No, thank you for proving that you don't now what you are copying and pasting, Cmon Man your picture was for the int intended for Nicks, mine was when he missed cruz because bennett hit him in no time flat while he threw the ball. , LOLClearly it wasn't. Look at the stills and the video I posted.

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:15 AM
See that Giants on the floor, that's Cruz whom eli overthrew because of the pressure and not Nicks.

What are you talking about? I never said that it was intended for Nicks! Post where I said that.

Nicks was wide open in the seam on the opposite side of the field. The OL provided a pocket that allowed Eli to step up and nail Nicks in stride.

God damn dude, who's the fail again?

Cloud57
01-01-2013, 12:16 AM
It's a new year, the season is over, why are people still discussing the past?

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:16 AM
Are you really this stupid, are we arguing about who the int was to instead of why it was caused?
Are you trying to deflect? aight let me show you.. in your link

See that Giants on the floor, that's Cruz whom eli overthrew because of the pressure and not Nicks.

Seriously, you tried to put words in my mouth and then questioned my intelligence because of a link i posted. You are a total fail dude, can't debate properly because you don't even know what to debate. You wanted to discuss the play I brought up but you brought a different play to use as discussion.. That was ignorance on your part or you willfully tried to mislead, you're either stupid or a liar or both. No point in debating with someone who doesn't even now what to argue.And by the way, Eli didn't overthrow Cruz. It only appeared to look like that because look how Cruz gets mauled getting out of his break...

Even the announcers emphasized that point.

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:24 AM
Our OC should continue to force the ball to 40 yards down even though the DEs are parked in our backfield.
Unbelievable.. how long have you been watching your couch?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8fubAb7atU&feature=youtube_gdata_playerHo w did Eli survive that?!

DarkSaint
01-01-2013, 12:41 AM
What are you talking about? I never said that it was intended for Nicks! Post where I said that.

Nicks was wide open in the seam on the opposite side of the field. The OL provided a pocket that allowed Eli to step up and nail Nicks in stride.

God damn dude, who's the fail again?


Lol, the OL had that play blocked just fine. Eli had all the room to step up and hit Nicks. Can't blame the OL for a bad read, and a bad throw, especially when they had a beautiful step up lane. Not to mention, there was a huge missed call on the defense.

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at105742PM_zpsf2e6d625.png

http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2012-12-31at105614PM_zpsa1f2b932.png

FAIL

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:43 AM
FAILWhere? Lmao, I said this: "Eli had all the room to step up and Nicks." Where did I say it was intended for Nicks? I even followed that by blaming Eli's read and throw (which on second thought, wasn't a bad throw). Reading comprehension fail.

DarkSaint
01-01-2013, 12:44 AM
You realize that thumbnail shows the pressure after Eli surveyed the WHOLE ENTIRE right side of the progression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8YloubZtVY&feature=youtube_gdata_player look at the clock dude, he got the ball in :08 and then threw it by .11 seconds on the video,if that's normal speed, Eli had 3 seconds to survey the field and throw while getting hit. Does this prove that the OL played great there?

so no response here?

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:47 AM
Look at Nicks in the coaches film, he runs a post that Eli would have seen if he stepped up in the beautiful pocket that the OL formed. Who's deflecting now? You're trying to point out an error in the play I'm showing, which is:

1. Untrue
2. Unrelated to what we're arguing -- the supposed limitation the OL provides
3. Irrelevant to the fact that the play you chose as your demonstration was actually a play that was blocked nicely, and only resulted in an interception because Cruz was mauled by the DB, and Eli didn't step up and throw to Nicks.

Diamondring
01-01-2013, 12:48 AM
It's a new year, the season is over, why are people still discussing the past?We don't talk about the past then how can we talk about the future?

DarkSaint
01-01-2013, 12:49 AM
Where? Lmao, I said this: "Eli had all the room to step up and Nicks." Where did I say it was intended for Nicks? I even followed that by blaming Eli's read and throw (which on second thought, wasn't a bad throw).
Why even bring up Nicks if the play wasn't intended for him. The only reason Nicks got open was because the ball was thrown and the db came back and let him go. You aren't good at this are you?

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:51 AM
look at the clock dude, he got the ball in :08 and then threw it by .11 seconds on the video,if that's normal speed, Eli had 3 seconds to survey the field and throw while getting hit. Does this prove that the OL played great there?

so no response here?http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/bschujasnyg/ScreenShot2013-01-01at125012AM_zpsa7bb96c9.png

Responded about an hour ago

Edit: and I'm the one that nitpicks argument, and "aren't good at this."

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 12:52 AM
Why even bring up Nicks if the play wasn't intended for him. The only reason Nicks got open was because the ball was thrown and the db came back and let him go. You aren't good at this are you?Fine, I'll even give you that, but that still doesn't change the fact that the step up lane was there and Cruz got mauled coming out of his break that was missed by the replacement refs. So the throw was hardly affected by whatever "pressure" you tried to demonstrate.

DarkSaint
01-01-2013, 01:03 AM
I thought bennett also got his arm. I missed your steelers response ealrlier i saw 3 seconds, but its true, eli had 3 seconds but the pressure was there, he had practically 3 guys on top of him 4 if you see the giants ol man get pushed into him as he throws.i

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 01:05 AM
I thought bennett also got his arm. I missed your steelers response ealrlier i saw 3 seconds, but its true, eli had 3 seconds but the pressure was there, he had practically 3 guys on top of him 4 if you see the giants ol man get pushed into him as he throws.iHe clearly receives the snap at 3:13, goes through his whole progression on the right side, and then throws the ball at 3:09. Hardly two seconds you claimed Eli had in those games.

Rudyy
01-01-2013, 01:14 AM
It's a new year, the season is over, why are people still discussing the past?Uh the season just ended..

gmen0820
01-01-2013, 09:57 PM
Look at Nicks in the coaches film, he runs a post that Eli would have seen if he stepped up in the beautiful pocket that the OL formed. Who's deflecting now? You're trying to point out an error in the play I'm showing, which is:

1. Untrue
2. Unrelated to what we're arguing -- the supposed limitation the OL provides
3. Irrelevant to the fact that the play you chose as your demonstration was actually a play that was blocked nicely, and only resulted in an interception because Cruz was mauled by the DB, and Eli didn't step up and throw to Nicks.Bump?

Bleacher Report link?