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Razur
12-31-2012, 06:18 PM
Throughout this season, and right up until the last post game coach presser & lockeroon interviews, we've heard that no one has a clue as to why things went south when they did, and no explanation why we shone bright when we did. Nothing was done differently.Nothing was evident in practice that would indicate anything but a good result on game day, and yet we had some record stinkers.

So, my question, is, if we have NO IDEA, and CAN'T EXPLAIN what went wrong...how can we risk that happening again next season? Why would we not consider coaching changes..if it falls squarely on coaches to get answers? If practices are good, players are energetic, and excited to play....then
what are we missing? And why can't we identify what the problem is?

I guess what I'm concerened about is this phenomonon of the 2nd half season slide, and UP & DOWN performances, with no explinations becoming 'accepted as the new "norm' for this team. Shrugging the shoulders , shaking the head, and the now famous "well it is what it is" becoming standard protocol.

I don't want to see any one fired...for no reason of course, but I also don't want to see this continued into next year either ! Shouldn't somebody be held accountable for what we saw this year? Weeding out of some players, won't explain a team breakdown, which is what it was.

Anyways, I'm rambling and will no doubt be brutalized by some of you for my comments as always..but..before jumping all over me..can you at least offer me some logic as to why we go blindly in another potential mediocre season?


By the way..had my first visit to Met Life stadium...absolutely stellar time!!! Happy New Year All!

GameTime
12-31-2012, 06:41 PM
thats the basic thing....I agree.
How do you fix something that you dont know what or how its broken.....????

RoanokeFan
12-31-2012, 06:42 PM
Throughout this season, and right up until the last post game coach presser & lockeroon interviews, we've heard that no one has a clue as to why things went south when they did, and no explanation why we shone bright when we did. Nothing was done differently.Nothing was evident in practice that would indicate anything but a good result on game day, and yet we had some record stinkers.

So, my question, is, if we have NO IDEA, and CAN'T EXPLAIN what went wrong...how can we risk that happening again next season? Why would we not consider coaching changes..if it falls squarely on coaches to get answers? If practices are good, players are energetic, and excited to play....then
what are we missing? And why can't we identify what the problem is?

I guess what I'm concerened about is this phenomonon of the 2nd half season slide, and UP & DOWN performances, with no explinations becoming 'accepted as the new "norm' for this team. Shrugging the shoulders , shaking the head, and the now famous "well it is what it is" becoming standard protocol.

I don't want to see any one fired...for no reason of course, but I also don't want to see this continued into next year either ! Shouldn't somebody be held accountable for what we saw this year? Weeding out of some players, won't explain a team breakdown, which is what it was.

Anyways, I'm rambling and will no doubt be brutalized by some of you for my comments as always..but..before jumping all over me..can you at least offer me some logic as to why we go blindly in another potential mediocre season?


By the way..had my first visit to Met Life stadium...absolutely stellar time!!! Happy New Year All!


That was such a great gift from your daughter

ashleymarie
12-31-2012, 06:44 PM
Happy New Year to you.

Razur
12-31-2012, 06:46 PM
That was such a great gift from your daughter

Ro...on so many levels that was ! Showed me she knew how much the Giants meant to me!!..and...even better, to US as father & daughter! She was right there in it with me and the band of screaming nutcases called fans!!! It was the highlight to my year ! And the fact that we won BIG, was the cherry on the sundae !!!

Harooni
12-31-2012, 06:52 PM
we dont have a fix because we dont know why, therefore why it happens like clock work nearly every season. no coaching changes so , happy groundhogs day

Razur
12-31-2012, 06:55 PM
we dont have a fix because we dont know why, therefore why it happens like clock work nearly every season. no coaching changes so , happy groundhogs day

Sigh...It is what it is ! ...Until we can call IT something else!

RoanokeFan
12-31-2012, 06:57 PM
Throughout this season, and right up until the last post game coach presser & lockeroon interviews, we've heard that no one has a clue as to why things went south when they did, and no explanation why we shone bright when we did. Nothing was done differently.Nothing was evident in practice that would indicate anything but a good result on game day, and yet we had some record stinkers.

So, my question, is, if we have NO IDEA, and CAN'T EXPLAIN what went wrong...how can we risk that happening again next season? Why would we not consider coaching changes..if it falls squarely on coaches to get answers? If practices are good, players are energetic, and excited to play....then
what are we missing? And why can't we identify what the problem is?

I guess what I'm concerened about is this phenomonon of the 2nd half season slide, and UP & DOWN performances, with no explinations becoming 'accepted as the new "norm' for this team. Shrugging the shoulders , shaking the head, and the now famous "well it is what it is" becoming standard protocol.

I don't want to see any one fired...for no reason of course, but I also don't want to see this continued into next year either ! Shouldn't somebody be held accountable for what we saw this year? Weeding out of some players, won't explain a team breakdown, which is what it was.

Anyways, I'm rambling and will no doubt be brutalized by some of you for my comments as always..but..before jumping all over me..can you at least offer me some logic as to why we go blindly in another potential mediocre season?


By the way..had my first visit to Met Life stadium...absolutely stellar time!!! Happy New Year All!

Managing people is never easy and there are as many "problems" as there are people. Knowing what motivates people AFTER you have taken care of their creature comforts can be elusive. In the NFL, no player is lacking for money or a benefits package. They "work" about six months. Some have lucrative commercial endorsements that far exceed their salaries.

So figuring out what motivates them "individually" AFTER ALL OF THAT can be hard to grasp. I believe one key is finding the right players to serve as your motivator(s). A guy like Ray Lewis comes to mind. We have Captains who are not overtly demonstrative and I don't necessarily see them as "motivators."

Then there are incidents where one player motivates his team. When RG III had his leg bent awkwardly in the Ravens' game and was hobbling around and had to be helped to the huddle by a teammate before he was replaced by Cousins. I am convinced that "act of heroism" was at least partially responsible for them winning that specific game.

I remember the days when LT played for us and Phil McConkey was one of the wide receivers. He would stand on the bench waving a white towel to get the crowd involved in making noise. We don't see a lot of that here,

Motivation is hard to quantify for groups of people. They will evaluate everyting they did, every player they have and every coaching decision made to try to find the answer(s). I'm not sure how successful they will be. We'll know next season.

RoanokeFan
12-31-2012, 06:59 PM
Ro...on so many levels that was ! Showed me she knew how much the Giants meant to me!!..and...even better, to US as father & daughter! She was right there in it with me and the band of screaming nutcases called fans!!! It was the highlight to my year ! And the fact that we won BIG, was the cherry on the sundae !!!

I'm glad I was able to share in your experience as one of the nutcases :)

Harooni
12-31-2012, 06:59 PM
Sigh...It is what it is ! ...Until we can call IT something else! even SB years we had that funk slide and they sort of had a second wind going into the playoffs

Razur
12-31-2012, 07:01 PM
I'm glad I was able to share it your experience as one of the nutcases :)
hahaha...I should have learned sign language...I have NO voice ...wife thinks its great...I still can shoot the old eyebrows up down and sideways to make my point..but she has to be looking at me!..

RoanokeFan
12-31-2012, 07:03 PM
hahaha...I should have learned sign language...I have NO voice ...wife thinks its great...I still can shoot the old eyebrows up down and sideways to make my point..but she has to be looking at me!..

LMAO me too

NorwoodBlue
12-31-2012, 07:07 PM
If this was a one or two year phenomina I might not think it was coaching based; but this has been consistent over the entire Coughlin era. His teams, regardless of personnel have choked in the second half. The problem that I see is that at a point, after listening to Coughlin for 10-12 weeks, the players just get sick of it and tune him out. Coughlin has no influence on his own teams after the midway point of the season. They reach a point where they need some external stimulous to get focused to play. In 2007 it was the army vet speaking to them before every game. The guy inspired the players, and they responded. Last year the All In theme caught their attention and they responded; but I think that was more player led than Coughlin led. This year we saw the kid come in and tell them to play like the champions they are, and they slaughtered Green Bay. The Sandy Hook kids were in the stadium Sunday, and they played like crazy for them; but they don't play for Coughlin late in the year. When Coughlin says he has no clue why his players do what they do, he's telling the truth, and there my friends is the heart of the problem.

gmen0820
12-31-2012, 07:08 PM
Well said. I think in the Giants locker room, the collapses are viewed strictly in a coincidental sense, because I'm sure that the Giants don't change anything from October to November, to December, so on, and so forth.

Where the problem probably lies is in the player's mentality. Starting off 6-2, and then buying into themselves far too much, or getting complacent. I know in most locker rooms, the season is viewed in quarters, so after two strong quarters complacency might start to creep in.

Razur
12-31-2012, 07:14 PM
Managing people is never easy and there are as many "problems" as there are people. Knowing what motivates people AFTER you have taken care of their creature comforts can be elusive. In the NFL, no player is lacking for money or a benefits package. They "work" about six months. Some have lucrative commercial endorsements that far exceed their salaries.

So figuring out what motivates them "individually" AFTER ALL OF THAT can be hard to grasp. I believe one key is finding the right players to serve as your motivator(s). A guy like Ray Lewis comes to mind. We have Captains who are not overtly demonstrative and I don't necessarily see them as "motivators."

Then there are incidents where one player motivates his team. When RG III had his leg bent awkwardly in the Ravens' game and was hobbling around and had to be helped to the huddle by a teammate before he was replaced by Cousins. I am convinced that "act of heroism" was at least partially responsible for them winning that specific game.


I remember the days when LT played for us and Phil McConkey was one of the wide receivers. He would stand on the bench waving a white towel to get the crowd involved in making noise. We don't see a lot of that here,

Motivation is hard to quantify for groups of people. They will evaluate everyting they did, every player they have and every coaching decision made to try to find the answer(s). I'm not sure how successful they will be. We'll know next season.

You know that may be the elusive answer...the insider, the pulse of a team..a guy like Lewis....we don't have that IN house guy...hense maybe the reason TC has gone to a "guest' from time to time ....And that could explain why he and the other coaches , DON'T have any reasonable explanations post game..Eli is a leader, but certainly not in the veign of a Gospel Hell & Brimstone motivator like Lewis...Eli is more of the calm during the cyclone kind...ya' know I think you nailed it....Chase has the spirit, and has more of a lead by example style, but I think we need a HOLY HALLEIGLUIA in your face kinda guy in that lockeroom...that has to be a VET..a FA pick up maybe??/

greenca190
01-01-2013, 03:51 AM
The most concerning thing to me is that this happened in Jacksonville during Coughlin's tenure as well. This isn't a New York Giants problem.

M00KIE
01-01-2013, 05:38 AM
Some things don't have specific answers or reasons. You could ask the same question about last years SB run and what happened that made us play so great. It's the same answer (if answered honestly) "-shrug-".

SweetZombieJesus
01-01-2013, 07:50 AM
I completely agree Razur. I don't want Coughlin fired, I just want him to figure out the damned problem. Identify it at least.

There are articles that he's asking the players what the heck is happening. Tom doesn't even have a theory, apparently. Well it's been happening for 9 years, first of all, and this is the first time he's interested in the problem? When someone can't even IDENTIFY a problem let alone fix it, well why is he the captain of your ship? What is he relying on, magic? Ignore the problem and hope it goes away?

I'm very disappointed to hear Tom is cluelessly asking around the locker room at the end of the season to figure out the problem. As captain of the ship he should be seeing it happen before his eyes. This suggests "Mr. Disciplinarian" is actually hands off, VERY hands off, TOO hands off. The captain doesn't know the inner workings of his ship.

If you brought your car to a mechanic who fails to fix your car and has no clue what he's even doing, would you keep going to him?

Diamondring
01-01-2013, 07:59 AM
Now on top of the other good teams Giants had to play, they had to play good teams in their own division. All that contributed to the Giants failure to make it in the playoffs..

RoanokeFan
01-01-2013, 08:03 AM
You know that may be the elusive answer...the insider, the pulse of a team..a guy like Lewis....we don't have that IN house guy...hense maybe the reason TC has gone to a "guest' from time to time ....And that could explain why he and the other coaches , DON'T have any reasonable explanations post game..Eli is a leader, but certainly not in the veign of a Gospel Hell & Brimstone motivator like Lewis...Eli is more of the calm during the cyclone kind...ya' know I think you nailed it....Chase has the spirit, and has more of a lead by example style, but I think we need a HOLY HALLEIGLUIA in your face kinda guy in that lockeroom...that has to be a VET..a FA pick up maybe??/

I posted an article this morning from Rolle. Now a lot of fans don't like Rolle because he "talks too much", but I have to say he's never lied that I can tell. If you read that article, it's all about doing what they are told and being aware in the different schemes. Rolle, and other players, have always said it's up to the players to execute whatever plays are drawn up. We've heard how complicated the offense is but it sounds, to me, like the defense can also be complicated and players need to understand what they're looking at ALL THE TIME.

I don't have any answers, hell, I don't even know some of the questions. But looking at games we lost by just a few poitns does make me believe we're not that far off. A few more pieces of the puzzle need to be found and we'll be right back in the hunt next season.

The players elect their Captains and I would love to see them elect Rolle this time around on Defense.

SweetZombieJesus
01-01-2013, 08:05 AM
Managing people is never easy and there are as many "problems" as there are people. Knowing what motivates people AFTER you have taken care of their creature comforts can be elusive. In the NFL, no player is lacking for money or a benefits package. They "work" about six months. Some have lucrative commercial endorsements that far exceed their salaries.

Your post is filled with good points; however, the roster has flipped over in most spots since 2004 but the problem keeps happening over and over. Therefore it's at least partially the system producing these results.

I think Coughlin needs to spend a little time this offseason looking into the Scientific Method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method) and eliminating variables one at a time. Disappointed that he has no explanation but somebody in the organization needs to start playing Sherlock Holmes.

bigblue58
01-01-2013, 08:06 AM
Coughlin is always harping on how well practices were all week prior to getting blown out, so maybe it's as simple as Coughlin only THINKING he knows what a good practice looks like, and that he and his coaching staff just suck at preparing the team properly!
Thats why it's insane to me that Coughlin gets to make the decision on who stays and goes on his coaching staff because he brought them in and he has no objectivity about their job performance.
To me it's like allowing a mentally ill person to decide what medicines to take.

RoanokeFan
01-01-2013, 08:12 AM
Coughlin is always harping on how well practices were all week prior to getting blown out, so maybe it's as simple as Coughlin only THINKING he knows what a good practice looks like, and that he and his coaching staff just suck at preparing the team properly!
Thats why it's insane to me that Coughlin gets to make the decision on who stays and goes on his coaching staff because he brought them in and he has no objectivity about their job performance.
To me it's like allowing a mentally ill person to decide what medicines to take.

Coughlin answers to Reese and Mara. When Head coaches are first hired, they generally get to pick their coaching staff. But no organization is going to allow sub-standard coaches to remain in place and we haven't. We've fired three coordinators and one coach I can think of since 2006. No one in this front office it timid about doing what has to be done. So to lay ALL of the blame for coaching decisions on Coughlin doesn't make sense. I get that he's the most visible target, but he doesn't operate in a vacuum. He doesn't sign off on coaches' contracts.

Diamondring
01-01-2013, 08:14 AM
Coughlin is always harping on how well practices were all week prior to getting blown out, so maybe it's as simple as Coughlin only THINKING he knows what a good practice looks like, and that he and his coaching staff just suck at preparing the team properly!
Thats why it's insane to me that Coughlin gets to make the decision on who stays and goes on his coaching staff because he brought them in and he has no objectivity about their job performance.
To me it's like allowing a mentally ill person to decide what medicines to take.Playing against each other is one thing but playing against another team is a different thing.

RoanokeFan
01-01-2013, 08:20 AM
Playing against each other is one thing but playing against another team is a different thing.

This brings up my pet peeve about the new CBA. The lack of allowable contact at practices mandated under the CBA is not helping players prepare to "fight." I mean when you read that for the first OTA's coaches can't be on the field is absolutely astounding to me. How many practices pads can be worn, and on and on. It's no wonder we see so much poor tackling throughout the league. This CBA has really handcuffed teams' ability to get their players in "football" shape. There is so little contact in practices, to include training camp, it's absolutely no wonder the fundamentals, like tackling and blocking, are being ignored.

bigblue58
01-01-2013, 12:28 PM
This brings up my pet peeve about the new CBA. The lack of allowable contact at practices mandated under the CBA is not helping players prepare to "fight." I mean when you read that for the first OTA's coaches can't be on the field is absolutely astounding to me. How many practices pads can be worn, and on and on. It's no wonder we see so much poor tackling throughout the league. This CBA has really handcuffed teams' ability to get their players in "football" shape. There is so little contact in practices, to include training camp, it's absolutely no wonder the fundamentals, like tackling and blocking, are being ignored.

The irony of how hard the PA fought to make todays NFL players soft isn't lost on me! Is it any wonder why the Giants played with no heart and basically quit on the season when the Player's Association all but sanctioned it?
There are no warriors left in the NFL....they've been replaced by coddled yuppie millionaires with deep pockets, no heart and a million worn out cliche's at the ready when the season is a flop!

GiantRoc
01-01-2013, 01:09 PM
Reese just made comments on how complicated our offense is and our defense also has its complications. Maybe our players to too busy thinking to be emotional. Even when you make a strong play and everyone gets excited, you have to step back and start thinking about the next play. We have great physical talent on this team. It really doesn't get fully utilized. It's hard to act in a purely athletic way when you have to think through every step. That leads to another point mentioned in other posts. No rookie spirit. The young guys barely play because they have so much to learn in our system. We lose all that enthusiasm. All that fire to prove themselves. The rookies aren't the coddled softies with big money deals and endorsements. By the half-way point, guys are exhausted mentally, physically and emotionally. The last 2 SB runs had a lot of rookie / raw talent shining through. That happened because of injuries. (sad and lucky at the same time). I even remember hearing how the Giants simplified some things due to the youth and inexperience. Maybe we need to start thinking about what has worked and not that it may have worked better if the older guys were in there doing it. The change in game plan due to youth may have been the answer all along. Try that plan with older guys for a change. Hell, it can't be much worse.

Either that or get Strahan back in pads. :)