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View Full Version : How do you justify bringing back a guy who coached a #30 Defense?



BParcells777
01-01-2013, 02:02 PM
What more do you need to know about a guy than with a powerful O, a more than average defensive line-up, he cannot even get you in the top 15?

FEWELL HAS TO GO......he is way too predictable and timid

slipknottin
01-01-2013, 02:02 PM
By giving him better players.

brad
01-01-2013, 02:03 PM
No offense, but there has been about 50 threads on this... while I may agree, it is time to either move on or just bump one of the others

Hooligans
01-01-2013, 02:05 PM
What more do you need to know about a guy than with a powerful O, a more than average defensive line-up, he cannot even get you in the top 15?

FEWELL HAS TO GO......he is way too predictable and timid

Obviously, the Giants feel it was the players fault...and they might be right....Osi, Tuck and Webster were horrible, and won't be back with the Giants because of their very poor play.

Ladder27
01-01-2013, 02:06 PM
What more do you need to know about a guy than with a powerful O, a more than average defensive line-up, he cannot even get you in the top 15?

FEWELL HAS TO GO......he is way too predictable and timid

Our CBs were banged up all year. His Defense relies on CB and Safeties. That's how. I like our DC. This year was not on him it was on the players.

brad
01-01-2013, 02:08 PM
Our CBs were banged up all year. His Defense relies on CB and Safeties. That's how. I like our DC. This year was not on him it was on the players.

Osi, Tuck and Web had very good years last year, and the defense was still ranked among the worst in the NFL... He may be a good DC, but has he actually coached a top 10 defense, ever?

BParcells777
01-01-2013, 02:08 PM
Obviously, the Giants feel it was the players fault...and they might be right....Osi, Tuck and Webster were horrible, and won't be back with the Giants because of their very poor play.

I would not say those 3 were terrible, more like average.........Did you notice when we applied pressure bringing 8 against Philadelphia we looked like a real team?

Sometimes I feel Fewell puts in a base defense and goes off to take a nap for the whole game

Rudyy
01-01-2013, 02:10 PM
I would not say those 3 were terrible, more like average.........Did you notice when we applied pressure bringing 8 against Philadelphia we looked like a real team?Sometimes I feel Fewell puts in a base defense and goes off to take a nap for the whole gamePhilly has an awful o-line.

BParcells777
01-01-2013, 02:14 PM
Philly has an awful o-line.

so if we play teams with good olines we should never bring heat??? Are you daft man?

#30 is #30..............Stevie Brown saved us from beine the leagues worst D. It's unacceptable and it starts with the DC

San Fran has a very good o line and the same brutal tactics worked against them...........he occasionaly calls a good game then retreats to his old conservative style

radar-ray
01-01-2013, 02:15 PM
Philly has an awful o-line. Yes they do, but when PF simplified the D and brought more lb/safety pressure at the end of 2011 into the playoffs the d played lights out.

Toadofsteel
01-01-2013, 02:19 PM
More important to get rid of Killdrive...

BParcells777
01-01-2013, 02:20 PM
I think the job of DC is too big a role for Fewell........he should be a LB or Dline coach............We should bring in Lovie Smith as DC

Mara needs to step in and force Coughlin off his comfort zone

Ladder27
01-01-2013, 02:21 PM
Osi, Tuck and Web had very good years last year, and the defense was still ranked among the worst in the NFL... He may be a good DC, but has he actually coached a top 10 defense, ever?


And again last year our CB were banged up. Just think how our Defense would be if our CBs could cover longer then 2 secs. If TT was back and could cover like Webster how many more Sacks would Our Defense have? Where would we be ranked? Webster had a down year also this year. Prince started coming on late but also got banged up.

moosedrool
01-01-2013, 02:21 PM
We don't have any playmakers at LB. I just checked the final PFF grades on our LB's and they were all negative except for Paysinger. We need a serious upgrade there and Reese is to blame. Rivers proved to be just another mediocre LB and the Sintim second round failure hurt too.

BParcells777
01-01-2013, 02:22 PM
lack of front 7 pressure exposes any CBs

blueNorange
01-01-2013, 02:22 PM
i'm not a fan of fewell however how do you expect a d-coord, who's specialty is the secondary, to be good when the team missed their best safety and had a cb that was dreadful all year long?

BParcells777
01-01-2013, 02:24 PM
by applying upfront pressure all these problems go away............Fewell was the #1 reason we are not in the tournament, and he should be sent packing

brad
01-01-2013, 02:28 PM
And again last year our CB were banged up. Just think how our Defense would be if our CBs could cover longer then 2 secs. If TT was back and could cover like Webster how many more Sacks would Our Defense have? Where would we be ranked? Webster had a down year also this year. Prince started coming on late but also got banged up.

You say this like no other teams have to deal with injuries. 30 other teams dealt with injuries and they were all better on D than the Giants were. Yes, injuries were part of the problem, but how does that explain the fact that the Giants can go out against great offenses like NO and GB and do very well then get destroyed by lesser offenses? Sounds like the talent was there then, or am I missing something?

The main question here is this... when has PF lead a defense that ranked anywhere near good, for any team? What indication do we have that he can coach a good defense, or are we just going to assume that he is great and it has always been the players fault that his defenses consistently rank among the worst in the NFL?

DavidSki
01-01-2013, 02:31 PM
I'm just not a fan of brining a coach from Buffalo. A team who hasn't been in the playoffs since 1999.

Ladder27
01-01-2013, 02:38 PM
You say this like no other teams have to deal with injuries. 30 other teams dealt with injuries and they were all better on D than the Giants were. Yes, injuries were part of the problem, but how does that explain the fact that the Giants can go out against great offenses like NO and GB and do very well then get destroyed by lesser offenses? Sounds like the talent was there then, or am I missing something?

The main question here is this... when has PF lead a defense that ranked anywhere near good, for any team? What indication do we have that he can coach a good defense, or are we just going to assume that he is great and it has always been the players fault that his defenses consistently rank among the worst in the NFL?


Brad are you near Georgetown?

brad
01-01-2013, 02:39 PM
Brad are you near Georgetown?

About 1.5 hours away... why?

Ladder27
01-01-2013, 02:40 PM
Was going to say next summer we can sit down and talk about it over beers. :D When i go on vacation hahaha

moosedrool
01-01-2013, 02:40 PM
Fewell held Brady to 17 points in the super bowl. Funny how people forget that.

brad
01-01-2013, 02:41 PM
Was going to say next summer we can sit down and talk about it over beers. :D When i go on vacation hahaha

LOL, maybe :)

Ladder27
01-01-2013, 02:42 PM
I would rather have Spags back but as for Parry hes my 2nd best choice.

Toadofsteel
01-01-2013, 02:42 PM
by applying upfront pressure all these problems go away............Fewell was the #1 reason we are not in the tournament, and he should be sent packing

No, our incredibly pedestrian vanilla offense cost us the tournament, and for that, Killdrive is to blame. If he had taken his dirty hands off our offense and let Eli do what he did, all our games would be like the SF and GB games. Defense not getting any rest because our offense was constantly run-run-pass-punt didn't help them at all...

brad
01-01-2013, 02:45 PM
No, our incredibly pedestrian vanilla offense cost us the tournament, and for that, Killdrive is to blame...

Not a big fan of KG... however, I don't think any one person can be blamed for the complete collapse of a team. Offense and defense were both horrible in the second half of the year. Plenty of "blame" to go around for everyone to share.

Ladder27
01-01-2013, 02:45 PM
No, our incredibly pedestrian vanilla offense cost us the tournament, and for that, Killdrive is to blame. If he had taken his dirty hands off our offense and let Eli do what he did, all our games would be like the SF and GB games. Defense not getting any rest because our offense was constantly run-run-pass-punt didn't help them at all...

Our whole damn teams sucked when they needed to step it up so its both Offense and Defense. So lets just rebuild the whole team and wait another 10 years for a playoff run.

Roosevelt
01-01-2013, 02:45 PM
lack of front 7 pressure exposes any CBs

Just imagine how much pressure was lacking for Corey Webster all season.

Roosevelt
01-01-2013, 02:47 PM
I would rather have Spags back but as for Parry hes my 2nd best choice.

Spags defense looked pretty good against us. I think they held us under 60.

egyptian420
01-01-2013, 02:48 PM
I like Fewel, he's not perfect and I don't like his mid-game adjustments or lack therof, but overall I think he's pretty good.

This year's dreadful performance was mainly due to the players, it's not Fewel's fault we're 30th because Webster is getting lit up play after play giving up a pile of yards. And Webster is by no means the only reason, that's just an example.

egyptian420
01-01-2013, 02:49 PM
Our whole damn teams sucked when they needed to step it up so its both Offense and Defense. So lets just rebuild the whole team and wait another 10 years for a playoff run.lol oh man....I really hope you're being sarcastic

moosedrool
01-01-2013, 02:50 PM
Spags defense looked pretty good against us. I think they held us under 60.Pretty much proves it's not the DC it's the players ....memo to all the Fewell and Gilbride haters

Ladder27
01-01-2013, 02:55 PM
lol oh man....I really hope you're being sarcastic

I was. Just pisses me off everyone wants coaches heads when the players didn't show up. This season in my eyes falls on the players more then anyone. When you have your caption coming out and saying they are mentally drained whats that tell your younger players and the rest of the team for that matter.

Rudyy
01-01-2013, 03:00 PM
so if we play teams with good olines we should never bring heat??? Are you daft man?#30 is #30..............Stevie Brown saved us from beine the leagues worst D. It's unacceptable and it starts with the DCSan Fran has a very good o line and the same brutal tactics worked against them...........he occasionaly calls a good game then retreats to his old conservative styleuhh no, I'm just saying that they freaking suck. I'm not taking anything from our guys but you can't ignore that. Also, I'm a girl.

ny06
01-01-2013, 03:01 PM
The coaches are easy to blame. Hate to break it to you guys, the players are the ones who should get the brunt of the criticism.

blu_buddha
01-01-2013, 03:01 PM
Maybe Coughlin is just being professional and not throwing Fewell under the bus in hopes he can land a gig someplace else. Lets see what happens in the next week or so.

Fewell has always had good secondaries. When he was in Buffalo he had one of the better secondaries in the league. He did pretty good this year and would have been better if CWeb didn't regress. His flaw has always been his philosophy which focused more on takeways then stops/ sacks. His schemes never centered around DEs or linbackers no matter who he had there ( LBs in Buffalo and DE on the Giants). He was instrumental in the success of Nate Clements, Leodis Mcelvin, Jarius Bird and now Stevie Brown, Prince, maybe Will Hill and I see some stuff I like from Hosely and you see the difference when he has a stud like Phillips in the secondary backfield.

I really think we've seen everything we are going to see out of Fewell and we need to move on. If we get a coach that can somehow mix up Spags scheme and Fewell's scheme we would have a ridiculous defense. I wouldn't mind a coach who worked with Jeff Fischer. His philosphy plus our players would mesh well.

Rich4114
01-01-2013, 03:15 PM
It seems to me that our issues have been for a while, at the DT spot. Linval has been pretty good but really there's no consistent push up the middle and then on passing downs we run DE's in the middle which again means the middle of the line is wide open. A huge body at DT helping push the line back would give our edge rushers a chance to get to the QB. Instead the QB can stay in the middle of the pocket with plenty of time to throw. It also doesn't help that our LB's are slow and we have no slot CB so the middle is constantly open. Then add in the fact that Webster played like a rookie and boom, no stopping third downs. What was our defensive third down %? I feel like that's where our biggest problem was because of the way our players were used.

moosedrool
01-01-2013, 03:33 PM
It seems to me that our issues have been for a while, at the DT spot. Linval has been pretty good but really there's no consistent push up the middle and then on passing downs we run DE's in the middle which again means the middle of the line is wide open. A huge body at DT helping push the line back would give our edge rushers a chance to get to the QB. Instead the QB can stay in the middle of the pocket with plenty of time to throw. It also doesn't help that our LB's are slow and we have no slot CB so the middle is constantly open. Then add in the fact that Webster played like a rookie and boom, no stopping third downs. What was our defensive third down %? I feel like that's where our biggest problem was because of the way our players were used. Linval is good. CanTy was good when healthy, but he only played 300 snaps this year and is 30 years old. Time to get younger at the position but LB is a higher need. I will be happy with a high impact player in the front 7 regardless of position.

G14ntzF4π
01-01-2013, 03:52 PM
This team under coughlin always tended towards being lazy. Skip bayless said it best that they were just waiting around this year for another motivational miracle and it never came. Either find players that are willing to put it all on the line season in and out or coaching changes need to be made Coughlin will save his job by missing the playoffs next season then barely making the playoffs and win the SB.Long live inconsistentcy.

moosedrool
01-01-2013, 03:58 PM
This team under coughlin always tended towards being lazy. Skip bayless said it best that they were just waiting around this year for another motivational miracle and it never came. Either find players that are willing to put it all on the line season in and out or coaching changes need to be made Coughlin will save his job by missing the playoffs next season then barely making the playoffs and win the SB.Long live inconsistentcy.A bad year here is 9-7 and people whine. How many other teams in the league have that problem? Not very many.

fletch842
01-01-2013, 04:03 PM
Skip Bayless should never be quoted on these message boards. The man is a tool.

Buddy333
01-01-2013, 04:14 PM
Not defending the defense, they need help, but do you know what the difference between the #10 defense in he league and the #31 defense in the league is? It's 50 yards a game. That could be a game winning play, or yards picked up in garbage time. How about points? The #1 defense in the league did not have the lowest points allowed per game. Points are the most important stat, not yards. There where 11 teams that allowed fewer points than the Giants defense did and 1 team that tied them. Of those teams a few really stand out with under 300 points allowed to the 344 allowed by the Giants. Most of them though are all close to the same. So no, they where not great, but the the last two losses are making them look even worse.

FBomb
01-01-2013, 04:17 PM
By giving him better players.


THIS!!!!!!!

Drez
01-01-2013, 04:18 PM
A bad year here is 9-7 and people whine. How many other teams in the league have that problem? Not very many.
Actually, we're the only one with that problem this year. We were the sole 9-7 team in the NFL.

Redeyejedi
01-01-2013, 04:25 PM
I would rather have Spags back but as for Parry hes my 2nd best choice.The only guy who ran a worse defense this season

gmen46
01-01-2013, 04:51 PM
What more do you need to know about a guy than with a powerful O, a more than average defensive line-up, he cannot even get you in the top 15?

FEWELL HAS TO GO......he is way too predictable and timid

In answer to your lead question---

Because the 30th rank refers to yards allowed, only. Not to how the defense performed overall.

Because there is more significance to other parts of a team's game than yards allowed and yards gained, each game.

As example, in 2011, Patriots and Packers were at bottom of league in terms of most yards allowed, yet one team went to the Super Bowl and the other had the best win-loss record in the league, losing only 1 reg season game. THIS year, Steelers were first in the league in allowing fewest yards, yet like us did not make the post season. Of the top 10 teams with fewest yards allowed, FIVE teams (Steelers, Bears, Jets, Chargers, Panthers) did not make the post season. Yards given up by a defense is just one stat to consider but by itself comes no where close to telling the whole story of how a team performs defensively.

Because a more important stat--points allowed--shows Giants ranked 12th (far from the bottom of the league) in fewest points allowed.

Because another more important defensive stat--which more often than not is, along with points allowed and total points scored by the team as a whole--is 3rd down conversions allowed by the defense. Giants finished ranked for tie as 3rd worst in the league with 42%. That is a horrible stat, I agree, and was an issue especially during our worst losses.

There were several aspects to the defense this season that were gravely inconsistent, no question. And Fewell, along with players (especially the big-play makers), are accountable for that.

Criticize Fewell to your heart's content.

But recognize that this same "terrible" defense was also accountable for being in the top 4 in take-aways all season long and , combined with us being in the top 3-4 teams in fewest turnovers, accounted for Giants being ranked the 4th best in the plus/minus turnover ration with a +14..This another defensive stat that is far more crucial than yards allowed, and in fact was a large contributor in many of our wins (see in particular our wins vs Dallas, Saints, Tampa) this year.

There is nothing "timid" or "predictable" in this type of defense.

Every aspect of the Giants team--players and coaches--is to be criticized for it's effort and execution in several games. With 7 losses--and especially the losses to Cowboys in Week One, to Bengals, Falcons, and Ravens subsequently, how can they not be?

But equally, every aspect is to be praised for individual and collective in most of their wins this year.

That's precisely what Reese means when yesterday (as he does at the end of every season) he emphasized the fact that every aspect of the team's efforts throughout 2012 will be evaluated and changes will be made--as they are every year, by every team--accordingly.

Bottom line--to place the preponderance of blame upon a specific coach, a coach who is only 1 year removed from contributing in a major way to one of the most year-end and post season runs in Giants history (if not NFL history), is to be way off the mark, and in fact would likely condemn the team to an even worse result a year from now.

younggiant
01-01-2013, 05:00 PM
Personally, I would give Fewell another season even though I think he should be canned now. NO excuses next season. Im not trying to hear the Injury excuse either because every NFL team has injuries as well. I also agree that the players should be held accountable, but the coaches should be held accountable too. Who put the players and scheme on the field? The coaches. Even Reese share blame as well for giving us a terrible LB core.

eusebiomor
01-01-2013, 05:11 PM
Is it not Fewell's fault to put in the field CWeb when the man cannot do anything to avoid yards over his side?

Perry Fewell had to change the players when they issues came.

Cloud57
01-01-2013, 05:21 PM
A bad year here is 9-7 and people whine. How many other teams in the league have that problem? Not very many.We were 9-7 last years as well, we only made the playoffs because the other teams in our division stinks. We made no improvements this year. we could easily be 9-7 next year as well.

gmen46
01-01-2013, 05:24 PM
Is it not Fewell's fault to put in the field CWeb when the man cannot do anything to avoid yards over his side?

Perry Fewell had to change the players when they issues came.

And who better at CB did Fewell have THIS year to replace Webster?

Changes for next year will certainly be made. But to say "just change the players when the issues came [sic]", without actually having anyone on the roster who was better, is childish not to mention ignorant. Yes, Hosely and Prince had their moments during the season, but they both missed some games, so weren't even available to substitute for Webster. Plus, when they were available the team still needed someone on the other side.

eusebiomor
01-01-2013, 05:32 PM
And who better at CB did Fewell have THIS year to replace Webster?

Changes for next year will certainly be made. But to say "just change the players when the issues came [sic]", without actually having anyone on the roster who was better, is childish not to mention ignorant. Yes, Hosely and Prince had their moments during the season, but they both missed some games, so weren't even available to substitute for Webster. Plus, when they were available the team still needed someone on the other side.

And it is not his fault to develop those players? to give them a change to prove it on the field?

CWeb needs competition on his side, And if you player stink over and over again you have to send a message, look the example of Russell in Seattle the Stater QB should be Flynn but Carroll give the opportunity to the rookie, i mean you always have to got a plan B

gmen46
01-01-2013, 05:44 PM
And it is not his fault to develop those players? to give them a change to prove it on the field?

CWeb needs competition on his side, And if you player stink over and over again you have to send a message, look the example of Russell in Seattle the Stater QB should be Flynn but Carroll give the opportunity to the rookie, i mean you always have to got a plan B

Again, talk about THIS season. Who did Fewell have at his disposal to replace Webster if he benched him?

As for giving Webster "competition" for his job, why do you think Hosely was drafted in 3rd rd this year? In anticipation for the future. And as I reminded you before, Hosely--besides being a 3rd rd rookie needing development but who has shown strong promise--was not available for several games, nor was Prince, even if Fewell wanted to sub for Webster.

And before THIS year Webster was our undisputed #1 CB. It wasn't until THIS year he had a serious decline in his ability to keep up. Is Fewell expected to be a fortune teller as well as DC? And if he isn't good at fortune telling, off with his head? Get serious.

GentleGiant
01-01-2013, 05:44 PM
Because the D wasn't the 30th last year.

WiIdcat
01-01-2013, 06:00 PM
While I do believe Fewell should be ousted, he did have some pretty bad players. Tuck, the linebackers, CWeb, and Rolle were terrible this year. That's half the defense lol give the guy some slack.

JesseJames
01-01-2013, 06:21 PM
No, our incredibly pedestrian vanilla offense cost us the tournament, and for that, Killdrive is to blame. If he had taken his dirty hands off our offense and let Eli do what he did, all our games would be like the SF and GB games. Defense not getting any rest because our offense was constantly run-run-pass-punt didn't help them at all...

I agree with what you say about Gilbride but TC is standing right next to him on the sidelines so what Gilbride is doing must be OK with TC which makes him part of the problem too

TheAnalyst
01-01-2013, 06:23 PM
Obviously, the Giants feel it was the players fault...and they might be right....Osi, Tuck and Webster were horrible, and won't be back with the Giants because of their very poor play.If that's the case, why did they leave them in all year?

eusebiomor
01-01-2013, 06:30 PM
Again, talk about THIS season. Who did Fewell have at his disposal to replace Webster if he benched him?

As for giving Webster "competition" for his job, why do you think Hosely was drafted in 3rd rd this year? In anticipation for the future. And as I reminded you before, Hosely--besides being a 3rd rd rookie needing development but who has shown strong promise--was not available for several games, nor was Prince, even if Fewell wanted to sub for Webster.

And before THIS year Webster was our undisputed #1 CB. It wasn't until THIS year he had a serious decline in his ability to keep up. Is Fewell expected to be a fortune teller as well as DC? And if he isn't good at fortune telling, off with his head? Get serious.

Of course i'm talking about this season, the football is changing all the time it is not statical you have to move, i think the team an d including all the staff was to confident of the last season, beacuase we think (in our minds) that the formula was discovered, but thats no longer than a three months the last season, you need backups all the time and it is your responsability to improve the performance.

I do not appoligize the players, but it is truthly that the coaches has a big % of the fail of the team.

Hall of Fame
01-01-2013, 06:42 PM
Maybe TC feels he needs a learning curve?

moosedrool
01-01-2013, 07:04 PM
We were 9-7 last years as well, we only made the playoffs because the other teams in our division stinks. We made no improvements this year. we could easily be 9-7 next year as well.

Cloud57 you must be a new Giant fan. Many people here have been fans for 30+ years, when the Giants used to go 2-12. The point is, many teams bad years are much worse more than 9-7. Yet newer spoiled Giants fans whine about 9-7, call Gilbride Killdrive and want him fired, want Fewell fired, want TC fired. Just plain ridiculous.

sc_markt
01-01-2013, 07:07 PM
By giving him better players.

Fewell has a lot of good players at his disposal. I don't think he utilized them to their maximum potential.

And where the heck were Fewell's halftime adjustments? I never saw any but I did see them under Spags and it seems as though under Spags, our D played better in the second half.

TCHOF
01-01-2013, 08:46 PM
Fewell has a lot of good players at his disposal. I don't think he utilized them to their maximum potential.

And where the heck were Fewell's halftime adjustments? I never saw any but I did see them under Spags and it seems as though under Spags, our D played better in the second half.

What half-time adjustments should have been made to make Tuck, Osi and Webster play better or to make KP healthy?

Redeyejedi
01-01-2013, 09:38 PM
We were 9-7 last years as well, we only made the playoffs because the other teams in our division stinks. We made no improvements this year. we could easily be 9-7 next year as well.They very well could be. They have to replace players on the defense that they won 2 Super Bowls with. Only the Patriots have maintained a level of winning with no drop off and they benefit from a horrible AFC East. I think your being completely unrealistic to the NFL this century.