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View Full Version : It's time to end the Ponzi Scheme...



Toadofsteel
01-02-2013, 10:55 PM
In economics, a Ponzi Scheme is borrowing from one investor promising a certain return without doing anything real to produce that result. Instead, you borrow more money from another investor to pay off the first one. This continually snowballs until the system eventually breaks and Bernie Madoff is put in jail for fraud.

Anyway, I think a variant of this is happening with our player contracts. JR is constantly restructuring contracts to be continuously more back-loaded. Players are trailing off in their playing ability while simultaneously getting more and more overpaid. Diehl, for example, despite having produced little in the past 2 seasons, has a ginormous cap hit in 2013, even if cut. Several other players leave us in similar situations (Rolle, Canty). JR is constantly restructuring other contracts to pay off the current ones and squeeze in that extra FA signing. And we're not about to cut overpaid players because the cap hits would then be rendered immediately in full instead of over a period of years.

I think we need to spend one year "rebuilding". I don't mean this in the traditional sense (hence the quotation marks), but we need to cut a lot of underperforming and/or overpaid players that are still under contact. The aforementioned Diehl, Rolle, and Canty, as well as guys like Tuck and Webster. Take all the cap hits up front. Yes the 2013 team would not be the greatest incarnation of the Giants in the world. But we would emerge in 2014 with a crapton of cap space and no overpaid underachievers on the team. From there, the possibilities are endless...

PS: I am not in favor of firing Reese. I merely want us to cut the cruft out of the team to give us a better future return. I wouldn't mind one losing season if it meant we would be incredible strong the following year. Plus it would be less stressful i think...

Cloud57
01-02-2013, 10:58 PM
These caps hit tends to screw everything up, and that goes for all teams

JJC7301
01-03-2013, 12:20 AM
JR's managed it just fine, IMO. We've won 2 SBs and have been competitive during his entire tenure. I can't complain.

However, I do like and admire how Belicheck decided to rebuild his D while relying on Brady and the O to keep the team in the hunt. Looks like it's about to pay off. I wouldn't mind doing that myself. The D and O-line have lots of room for improvement. It'll take more like 2 years of rebuilding, but I'd do it and hope that the O can stay healthy and keep the Giants in the hunt. Pats were a play away from winning a SB last year with a D that stunk, but had the best DC in history.

gmen0820
01-03-2013, 12:22 AM
Hey, they don't call him Jerry Madoff Reese for nuttin'

Harooni
01-03-2013, 12:33 AM
exactly what i have been saying 2012 was the best time to dump a few huge contracts and take the hits having a SB in hand the year before. now we are in rough shape again. no more restructuring , cut trade or let them play out there contract

GameTime
01-03-2013, 12:46 AM
I wouldn't mind one losing season if it meant we would be incredible strong the following year.
How generous of you as a dedicated fan....
a whole year......wow....

CDN_G-FAN
01-03-2013, 12:47 AM
i don't think having a horrible season one year immediately followed by an awesome season is how rebuilding/restructuring works.

not that i don't think its a good idea, just that if you're going to stink because of blowing out alot of overpaid talent, it may be unrealistic to expect that one draft and one free agency period is all it takes to fix it.

Roosevelt
01-03-2013, 12:51 AM
In economics, a Ponzi Scheme is borrowing from one investor promising a certain return without doing anything real to produce that result. Instead, you borrow more money from another investor to pay off the first one. This continually snowballs until the system eventually breaks and Bernie Madoff is put in jail for fraud.

Anyway, I think a variant of this is happening with our player contracts. JR is constantly restructuring contracts to be continuously more back-loaded. Players are trailing off in their playing ability while simultaneously getting more and more overpaid. Diehl, for example, despite having produced little in the past 2 seasons, has a ginormous cap hit in 2013, even if cut. Several other players leave us in similar situations (Rolle, Canty). JR is constantly restructuring other contracts to pay off the current ones and squeeze in that extra FA signing. And we're not about to cut overpaid players because the cap hits would then be rendered immediately in full instead of over a period of years.

I think we need to spend one year "rebuilding". I don't mean this in the traditional sense (hence the quotation marks), but we need to cut a lot of underperforming and/or overpaid players that are still under contact. The aforementioned Diehl, Rolle, and Canty, as well as guys like Tuck and Webster. Take all the cap hits up front. Yes the 2013 team would not be the greatest incarnation of the Giants in the world. But we would emerge in 2014 with a crapton of cap space and no overpaid underachievers on the team. From there, the possibilities are endless...

PS: I am not in favor of firing Reese. I merely want us to cut the cruft out of the team to give us a better future return. I wouldn't mind one losing season if it meant we would be incredible strong the following year. Plus it would be less stressful i think...


I'm okay with this if you pick-up the cost of my season tickets.

If we're going to write off a season, I'd rather watch it on TV and save the $5 grand.

CDN_G-FAN
01-03-2013, 12:57 AM
I'm okay with this if you pick-up the cost of my season tickets.

If we're going to write off a season, I'd rather watch it on TV and save the $5 grand.

about as real a post as you're going to find on these boards, with more reality built into it than 75% of the knee jerk stuff i read on here.

one of the many reasons why we don't just fire coaches like we're the Chiefs or gut the roster when we don't get 12 wins in a season.

fans complain about the lack of change or the appearance of addressing our faults, but this post highlights just one of the many reasons why these issues are far more complext than "didn't do good? = fire people, lots of people".

MikeSherrard
01-03-2013, 07:54 AM
It's certainly a logical argument

brad
01-03-2013, 08:13 AM
i don't think having a horrible season one year immediately followed by an awesome season is how rebuilding/restructuring works.

not that i don't think its a good idea, just that if you're going to stink because of blowing out alot of overpaid talent, it may be unrealistic to expect that one draft and one free agency period is all it takes to fix it.

I have to agree... in the real world it isn't that simple. If it was, a lot of teams would be doing it.

A less dramatic approach might be to draft players that will eventually take over for the higher paid veterans while letting their contracts expire. Which is exactly what they appear to be doing, IMO.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 09:16 AM
How generous of you as a dedicated fan....
a whole year......wow....

In his defense, he doesn't have a whole lot of years accumulated enough to waste.

Redeyejedi
01-03-2013, 09:18 AM
exactly what i have been saying 2012 was the best time to dump a few huge contracts and take the hits having a SB in hand the year before. now we are in rough shape again. no more restructuring , cut trade or let them play out there contractI know what your saying but if u think u can repeat why would u gut the team. I did see this coming with a lot of these players. I thought they were a 9 10 win team this season ,thought the same thing last year 2. Next season unless they can get a difference making Dlineman and Im talking like a pro Bowl type pass rusher they will struggle to win 8 games

DarkSaint
01-03-2013, 09:30 AM
I want superbowls. Draft well so that we can put these overpaid scrubs on the bench until their contract are up.

Toadofsteel
01-03-2013, 09:31 AM
I want superbowls. Draft well so that we can put these overpaid scrubs on the bench until their contract are up.

But TC doesn't want to put them on the bench, so we need to get them off the roster so TC can't put them on the field...

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 09:32 AM
I know what your saying but if u think u can repeat why would u gut the team. I did see this coming with a lot of these players. I thought they were a 9 10 win team this season ,thought the same thing last year 2. Next season unless they can get a difference making Dlineman and Im talking like a pro Bowl type pass rusher they will struggle to win 8 games

Not to mention that under the new CBA there is a minimum teams need to spend as well.

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 09:42 AM
In economics, a Ponzi Scheme is borrowing from one investor promising a certain return without doing anything real to produce that result. Instead, you borrow more money from another investor to pay off the first one. This continually snowballs until the system eventually breaks and Bernie Madoff is put in jail for fraud.

Anyway, I think a variant of this is happening with our player contracts. JR is constantly restructuring contracts to be continuously more back-loaded. Players are trailing off in their playing ability while simultaneously getting more and more overpaid. Diehl, for example, despite having produced little in the past 2 seasons, has a ginormous cap hit in 2013, even if cut. Several other players leave us in similar situations (Rolle, Canty). JR is constantly restructuring other contracts to pay off the current ones and squeeze in that extra FA signing. And we're not about to cut overpaid players because the cap hits would then be rendered immediately in full instead of over a period of years.

I think we need to spend one year "rebuilding". I don't mean this in the traditional sense (hence the quotation marks), but we need to cut a lot of underperforming and/or overpaid players that are still under contact. The aforementioned Diehl, Rolle, and Canty, as well as guys like Tuck and Webster. Take all the cap hits up front. Yes the 2013 team would not be the greatest incarnation of the Giants in the world. But we would emerge in 2014 with a crapton of cap space and no overpaid underachievers on the team. From there, the possibilities are endless...

PS: I am not in favor of firing Reese. I merely want us to cut the cruft out of the team to give us a better future return. I wouldn't mind one losing season if it meant we would be incredible strong the following year. Plus it would be less stressful i think...

There is a lot of truth in this post.
We "restructure" contracts and put us deeper in the hole down the road. There will come a time (in the not too distant future) where we will collapse under our own weight unless that practice changes.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 09:44 AM
There is a lot of truth in this post.
We "restructure" contracts and put us deeper in the hole down the road. There will come a time (in the not too distant future) where we will collapse under our own weight unless that practice changes.

Yeah ... we might only eek out one more SB with those hacks. :p

I think the Giants do a damn fine job of marrying the cap, resignings, restructures and home grown talent.

Remember when we let Boss and Steve Smith go? Everyone thought it was the end of the world.

Conversely everyone was bagging on David Diehl last year and we went ahead and won another Super Bowl with him starting.

It's all part of the magic of GMing a modern NFL team.

Buto
01-03-2013, 09:49 AM
I understand Rolle gets paid pretty good but why would you get rid of the most productive consistant player we've had on the defense over the last three or four years.
Watch the games and see who is around the ball and in on the tackle more often than not. He plays three positions Saftey, Slot CB and hybrid LB.
Four if you count both safety slots.
Rolle plays hard every game and he admits when he doesn't play his best.
I can't think of any other D player that owns up to their crappy play.

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 09:52 AM
Yeah ... we might only eek out one more SB with those hacks. :p

I think the Giants do a damn fine job of marrying the cap, resignings, restructures and home grown talent.

Remember when we let Boss and Steve Smith go? Everyone thought it was the end of the world.

Conversely everyone was bagging on David Diehl last year and we went ahead and won another Super Bowl with him starting.

It's all part of the magic of GMing a modern NFL team.

Steve Smith, Kevin Boss and David Diehl are not examples of what we are talking about.

RoanokeFan
01-03-2013, 09:55 AM
In economics, a Ponzi Scheme is borrowing from one investor promising a certain return without doing anything real to produce that result. Instead, you borrow more money from another investor to pay off the first one. This continually snowballs until the system eventually breaks and Bernie Madoff is put in jail for fraud.

Anyway, I think a variant of this is happening with our player contracts. JR is constantly restructuring contracts to be continuously more back-loaded. Players are trailing off in their playing ability while simultaneously getting more and more overpaid. Diehl, for example, despite having produced little in the past 2 seasons, has a ginormous cap hit in 2013, even if cut. Several other players leave us in similar situations (Rolle, Canty). JR is constantly restructuring other contracts to pay off the current ones and squeeze in that extra FA signing. And we're not about to cut overpaid players because the cap hits would then be rendered immediately in full instead of over a period of years.

I think we need to spend one year "rebuilding". I don't mean this in the traditional sense (hence the quotation marks), but we need to cut a lot of underperforming and/or overpaid players that are still under contact. The aforementioned Diehl, Rolle, and Canty, as well as guys like Tuck and Webster. Take all the cap hits up front. Yes the 2013 team would not be the greatest incarnation of the Giants in the world. But we would emerge in 2014 with a crapton of cap space and no overpaid underachievers on the team. From there, the possibilities are endless...

PS: I am not in favor of firing Reese. I merely want us to cut the cruft out of the team to give us a better future return. I wouldn't mind one losing season if it meant we would be incredible strong the following year. Plus it would be less stressful i think...

Are you saying Reese is alone in this? No other teams face these problems? We don't wan them to spend the CAP to be able to contend?

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 09:59 AM
Steve Smith, Kevin Boss and David Diehl are not examples of what we are talking about.

Sure they are ... we didn't re-sign or restructure Smith or Boss and we did restructure Diehl.

They're just examples of why the OP is incorrect (or at the very least, not as informed as our GM).

At the end of the day it's all educated guess work. When's the right time to cut someone. When's the right time to re-sign or restructure. When's the right time to pull out the FA card. Some bail earlier on players, some hold on to them too long. You only really know if you're wrong or right after the fact.

And after the fact, we're all geniuses.

CWeb is a great example. He was great one year and mediocre the next. That was a few years ago. He was a top 3 CB last year. Now everyone wants him cut because he got burnt on some nationally televised games. He also played really well in those very same games (the Packers game comes to mind).

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 10:01 AM
Are you saying Reese is alone in this? No other teams face these problems? We don't wan them to spend the CAP to be able to contend?
I think it really started after the 2007 season when we handed out huge contracts to some key players. We seem to still be dealing with the consequences of that. Then came the Rolle contract and Eli's. More importantly, there came the Eli restructure.
I personally have no idea what the plan is going forward and I'm in no position to definitively state that we are in big trouble in our cap situation.
But logic would suggest that all these contracts and restructures (to fit new contracts under the cap) can come back to bite us.
Are we the only team with this problem?....Absolutely not. Is it still a problem for us?......Probably.

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 10:05 AM
Sure they are ... we didn't re-sign or restructure Smith or Boss and we did restructure Diehl.

They're just examples of why the OP is incorrect (or at the very least, not as informed as our GM).

At the end of the day it's all educated guess work. When's the right time to cut someone. When's the right time to re-sign or restructure. When's the right time to pull out the FA card. Some bail earlier on players, some hold on to them too long. You only really know if you're wrong or right after the fact.

And after the fact, we're all geniuses.

Well since you responded to my post lets deal with what I said.
We had no reason to "restructure" Steve Smith or Kevin Boss because they were not under contract at the time and were free agents.
So the example of those two players is completely moot. We offered them what we thought they would be worth to us and they went to other teams with better offers.
"Restructuring" is really borrowing from the future to make room for the present. It esentially gives a player more money down the road in order to reduce his current cap number. That practice can create huge problems down the road.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 10:15 AM
Well since you responded to my post lets deal with what I said.
We had no reason to "restructure" Steve Smith or Kevin Boss because they were not under contract at the time and were free agents.
So the example of those two players is completely moot. We offered them what we thought they would be worth to us and they went to other teams with better offers.
"Restructuring" is really borrowing from the future to make room for the present. It esentially gives a player more money down the road in order to reduce his current cap number. That practice can create huge problems down the road.

You can't talk about restructuring in a vacuum. It all comes as part and parcel of who you sign, cut, re-sign, FA and so on.

Hence my points on Boss and Smith.

Yes if done too much, restructuring presents many problems down the road. The same could be said for any practice. The OP is contending (and you're agreeing by inference) that we restructure too much. I don't believe that to be correct. I think (at least thus far) that we've done a fairly decent job of maintaining a talent level that has produced consistent results.

And it's not like Reese (et al) is doing this without a calculator and calendar in hand.

Also, we're do for a cap hike in 2014 so some of this back loading is more than likely being put to use with that in mind. At least that would be my hope. In the end, I trust the guys who are smarter than I am about this and do this for a living over the board pundits. But yes I do share the same concerns.

RoanokeFan
01-03-2013, 10:15 AM
I think it really started after the 2007 season when we handed out huge contracts to some key players. We seem to still be dealing with the consequences of that. Then came the Rolle contract and Eli's. More importantly, there came the Eli restructure.
I personally have no idea what the plan is going forward and I'm in no position to definitively state that we are in big trouble in our cap situation.
But logic would suggest that all these contracts and restructures (to fit new contracts under the cap) can come back to bite us.
Are we the only team with this problem?....Absolutely not. Is it still a problem for us?......Probably.

I agree none of us have a clue as to how all of this works.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 10:21 AM
I think it really started after the 2007 season when we handed out huge contracts to some key players. We seem to still be dealing with the consequences of that. Then came the Rolle contract and Eli's. More importantly, there came the Eli restructure.
I personally have no idea what the plan is going forward and I'm in no position to definitively state that we are in big trouble in our cap situation.
But logic would suggest that all these contracts and restructures (to fit new contracts under the cap) can come back to bite us.
Are we the only team with this problem?....Absolutely not. Is it still a problem for us?......Probably.

The Tuck and Osi contracts were brilliant. We paid new guys a lot up front with what turned out to be, fairly cheap contracts down the road. That's why Osi had such a problem with his after the fact.

Eli's contract is standard for a QB of his tier. That's the price you pay for having an elite QB (*smirk*).

Rolle is the biggest FA signing Reese has undertaken. I thought we overpaid for him at the time and I still do. However we also won a SB with him on the team, so there you go. And we can cut him either this year or next and not have a ton of dead money lying around ($4 mill over the next two years).

If we restructured Rolle, then I think that would be a mistake but again, smarter heads than mine are making these calls.

gumby74
01-03-2013, 10:24 AM
In economics, a Ponzi Scheme is borrowing from one investor promising a certain return without doing anything real to produce that result. Instead, you borrow more money from another investor to pay off the first one. This continually snowballs until the system eventually breaks and Bernie Madoff is put in jail for fraud.

Anyway, I think a variant of this is happening with our player contracts. JR is constantly restructuring contracts to be continuously more back-loaded. Players are trailing off in their playing ability while simultaneously getting more and more overpaid. Diehl, for example, despite having produced little in the past 2 seasons, has a ginormous cap hit in 2013, even if cut. Several other players leave us in similar situations (Rolle, Canty). JR is constantly restructuring other contracts to pay off the current ones and squeeze in that extra FA signing. And we're not about to cut overpaid players because the cap hits would then be rendered immediately in full instead of over a period of years.

I think we need to spend one year "rebuilding". I don't mean this in the traditional sense (hence the quotation marks), but we need to cut a lot of underperforming and/or overpaid players that are still under contact. The aforementioned Diehl, Rolle, and Canty, as well as guys like Tuck and Webster. Take all the cap hits up front. Yes the 2013 team would not be the greatest incarnation of the Giants in the world. But we would emerge in 2014 with a crapton of cap space and no overpaid underachievers on the team. From there, the possibilities are endless...

PS: I am not in favor of firing Reese. I merely want us to cut the cruft out of the team to give us a better future return. I wouldn't mind one losing season if it meant we would be incredible strong the following year. Plus it would be less stressful i think...

Great post. You have good points and normally I'd agree with you, but the reason why it's actually workable (and we may not need cut people, eat the cap hits, and re-tool) is that most of the dead wood contracts are up in the next couple years anyway. The only exceptions are Rolle and Canty.

Osi, Tuck, KP (due to injury), Nicks (injury), Webster and DD all failed to show up this year. Yet they are all free agents in the next couple years. If we find stop gaps for them, we may still be roughly where we were this season - which was one play away from the playoffs. I don't think the Giants expect Eli to struggle as he did in some games next year also.

Reese said we're only a few pieces away from another run. I'm not crazy about Fewell staying, but I think what he said is true. Keep in mind that we have Terrell Thomas coming back from injury also as a wildcard. Our defense on paper looks at least average. And average, with Eli and his WRs should be good enough to win. As crappy as we were on defense, they still only gave up 20 a game.

Secondary: Thomas, Hill, Prince, Hosely, Stevie Brown (re-signed will be cheaper than KP), Webster, Rolle.
Dline: Tuck, JPP, Canty, Joseph
Linebacker: god help us

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 10:26 AM
You can't talk about restructuring in a vacuum. It all comes as part and parcel of who you sign, cut, re-sign, FA and so on.

Hence my points on Boss and Smith.

Yes if done too much, restructuring presents many problems down the road. The same could be said for any practice. The OP is contending (and you're agreeing by inference) that we restructure too much. I don't believe that to be correct. I think (at least thus far) that we've done a fairly decent job of maintaining a talent level that has produced consistent results.

And it's not like Reese (et al) is doing this without a calculator and calendar in hand.

Also, we're do for a cap hike in 2014 so some of this back loading is more than likely being put to use with that in mind. At least that would be my hope. In the end, I trust the guys who are smarter than I am about this and do this for a living over the board pundits. But yes I do share the same concerns.
Well your blind trust in JR or anyone is novel, but a tad naive in my view.
Yes JR does his best but the reality is that we have a huge cap number this season due in part to our constant policy of restructuring huge contracts. An example is Eli's contract. We restructured his contract last season to reduce his cap number in 2012 to around $9MM. We did that to make room for guys like Bennett and other FA's, Well the consequence of that is his cap hit for the next 2 years is over $20MM.

Our GM is fallible just like anyone else. As I said, i don't know what their plan is this coming year. I'm sure the Webby cap hit last year and this coming year is a source of great regret. (Again..JR is fallible) I know they are doing what they believe they need to, but that doesn't make it right.
Its not unreasonable to question some of these moves and wonder aloud on the New York Giants MB whether or not some of these decisions will hurt our chances down the road.

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 10:32 AM
The Tuck and Osi contracts were brilliant. We paid new guys a lot up front with what turned out to be, fairly cheap contracts down the road. That's why Osi had such a problem with his after the fact.

Eli's contract is standard for a QB of his tier. That's the price you pay for having an elite QB (*smirk*).

Rolle is the biggest FA signing Reese has undertaken. I thought we overpaid for him at the time and I still do. However we also won a SB with him on the team, so there you go. And we can cut him either this year or next and not have a ton of dead money lying around ($4 mill over the next two years).

If we restructured Rolle, then I think that would be a mistake but again, smarter heads than mine are making these calls.

Osi's contract was far from brilliant. They front loaded that deal giving Osi the power near the end of the deal to whine his way to more money. Renegotiating Osi this season was a mistake. He was the invisible man as he often is. At least we don't have to deal with that guy anymore. Let him go to NE where they won't give him near what he thinks he's worth. The reality is that Osi got the best of our FO.
The Tuck deal was far too many years for a guy who had injury problems as far back as his years at ND. Love the guy, but he simply wasn't worth the money we gave him.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 10:34 AM
Well your blind trust in JR or anyone is novel, but a tad naive in my view.
Yes JR does his best but the reality is that we have a huge cap number this season due in part to our constant policy of restructuring huge contracts. An example is Eli's contract. We restructured his contract last season to reduce his cap number in 2012 to around $9MM. We did that to make room for guys like Bennett and other FA's, Well the consequence of that is his cap hit for the next 2 years is over $20MM.

Our GM is fallible just like anyone else. As I said, i don't know what their plan is this coming year. I'm sure the Webby cap hit last year and this coming year is a source of great regret. (Again..JR is fallible) I know they are doing what they believe they need to, but that doesn't make it right.
Its not unreasonable to question some of these moves and wonder aloud on the New York Giants MB whether or not some of these decisions will hurt our chances down the road.

I trust Reese more than I trust you (or the OP or anyone on these boards) in matters of the Giants personnel. In any case, the point of "trust" is moot since I (we) have no choice in the matter. Short of being able to override his decisions, you're kind of stuck with them.

The fact that you know very little (we all do) about how the situation will play out makes you Chicken Little staring at the sky and shivering like a little Mexican dog.

I tend to have more poise than that.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 10:35 AM
Osi's contract was far from brilliant. They front loaded that deal giving Osi the power near the end of the deal to whine his way to more money. Renegotiating Osi this season was a mistake. He was the invisible man as he often is. At least we don't have to deal with that guy anymore. Let him go to NE where they won't give him near what he thinks he's worth. The reality is that Osi got the best of our FO.
The Tuck deal was far too many years for a guy who had injury problems as far back as his years at ND. Love the guy, but he simply wasn't worth the money we gave him.

This is why I don't sweat Reese's moves:

The Redskins had one of the worst cap situations in the league a couple of years ago. At the time, they had *THE* worst contract signing (Haynesworth) which led to a ton of dead money. They tried to dump it all in 2010 (the capless year) and got nailed, and were hit with what amounted to a  cap hit for 2012 and 2013.

They just won the division and look to be a power for at least the next five years.

I consider Reese and the Maras to be a crap ton smarter than Snyder and Allen.

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 10:41 AM
I trust Reese more than I trust you (or the OP or anyone on these boards) in matters of the Giants personnel. In any case, the point of "trust" is moot since I (we) have no choice in the matter. Short of being able to override his decisions, you're kind of stuck with them.

The fact that you know very little (we all do) about how the situation will play out makes you Chicken Little staring at the sky and shivering like a little Mexican dog.

I tend to have more poise than that.
Well that's just completely stupid. I'm not suggesting that I know more than JR. But this is a football message board so we express our opinions and discuss, among other things, the decisions our FO makes regarding our football team.

If we use your logic, no discussion, except blatant cheerleading, would ever take place regarding our GM or FO.

gumby74
01-03-2013, 10:42 AM
Well your blind trust in JR or anyone is novel, but a tad naive in my view.
Yes JR does his best but the reality is that we have a huge cap number this season due in part to our constant policy of restructuring huge contracts. An example is Eli's contract. We restructured his contract last season to reduce his cap number in 2012 to around $9MM. We did that to make room for guys like Bennett and other FA's, Well the consequence of that is his cap hit for the next 2 years is over $20MM.

Our GM is fallible just like anyone else. As I said, i don't know what their plan is this coming year. I'm sure the Webby cap hit last year and this coming year is a source of great regret. (Again..JR is fallible) I know they are doing what they believe they need to, but that doesn't make it right.
Its not unreasonable to question some of these moves and wonder aloud on the New York Giants MB whether or not some of these decisions will hurt our chances down the road.

A lot of the players that played like stop gaps or were hurt are free agents the next couple years anyone. We won't need to cut anyone and take a cap hit. And with all those guys playing hurt or like doo doo, we were still one play away from the playoffs.

Eli is in his prime. That essentially puts your team in "win now" mode. If there is a time to restructure and eat a bigger cap number later, now is the time. And technically, we've already won big - with 2SBs. The draft this year is going to be huge. Absolutely huge.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 10:42 AM
Well that's just completely stupid. I'm not suggesting that I know more than JR. But this is a football message board so we express our opinions and discuss, among other things, the decisions our FO makes regarding our football team.

If we use your logic, no discussion, except blatant cheerleading, would ever take place regarding our GM or FO.

I tend to look for (and inject) intelligent conversation.

But hey, I can post "CUT ELI!" threads too.

RoanokeFan
01-03-2013, 10:43 AM
Osi's contract was far from brilliant. They front loaded that deal giving Osi the power near the end of the deal to whine his way to more money. Renegotiating Osi this season was a mistake. He was the invisible man as he often is. At least we don't have to deal with that guy anymore. Let him go to NE where they won't give him near what he thinks he's worth. The reality is that Osi got the best of our FO.
The Tuck deal was far too many years for a guy who had injury problems as far back as his years at ND. Love the guy, but he simply wasn't worth the money we gave him.

When they extended Osi earlier in the season, wasn't it the right move to make the 2nd year voidable? And wasn't that due to Osi's decline?

Would we be complaing about Tuck's contract if he had 14 sacks this season?

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 10:49 AM
When they extended Osi earlier in the season, wasn't it the right move to make the 2nd year voidable? And wasn't that due to Osi's decline?

Would we be complaing about Tuck's contract if he had 14 sacks this season?
If memory serves me I thought that this was the last year of his contract. They bumped from around $3MM to over $5MM. Again, I'll have to look it up but that's the way I remember it.
I thought they should have just made him play out his deal or get cut. I do admit that when it comes to Osi, I have very little tolerance.

And as far as Tuck goes, no none loves him more than me (well there's Mrs. Tuck I guess). But I love the guy. But that was a huge contract for a guy with one healthy season. And the Webby deal was for a guy who had a couple good playoff games. Again, I like Webby a lot, but it seemed an overreaction to the euphoria of our SB win.
That's just my opinion.

Well I looked it up RF, it seems that I was right that 2012 was the last year in his old deal. He got a new deal for around $6MM with was $2.25M more than he would have earned. While it was technically an extension, it really wasn't since the second year was easily viodable. So essentially, they gave his a raise of $2.25MM in order to keep him from whining.
I don't like that kind of deal.

RoanokeFan
01-03-2013, 10:58 AM
If memory serves me I thought that this was the last year of his contract. They bumped from around $3MM to over $5MM. Again, I'll have to look it up but that's the way I remember it.
I thought they should have just made him play out his deal or get cut. I do admit that when it comes to Osi, I have very little tolerance.

And as far as Tuck goes, no none loves him more than me (well there's Mrs. Tuck I guess). But I love the guy. But that was a huge contract for a guy with one healthy season. And the Webby deal was for a guy who had a couple good playoff games. Again, I like Webby a lot, but it seemed an overreaction to the euphoria of our SB win.
That's just my opinion.


All I'm saying is when you sign a contract for, say, 4 years you can't know with any certainty how that player is going to be playing in the last year of the contract. It seems to me contracts are signed based on whatever body of work there is BEFORE the contract is entered into.

Victor Cruz is an example. He's had back to back 1,000 yard seasons NOW, before his contract is to be negotiated. I'm going to guess his play in 2014 is not going to be an issue during the negotiations. If there were some past issue, let's say his dropped passes, that was a concern, they might include an incentive clause about dropped balls. "If yo have no dropped balls in any season, $500,000.00."

But other than that, how do you forecast where that player is going to be at any point through the terms of the contract?

RoanokeFan
01-03-2013, 11:01 AM
If memory serves me I thought that this was the last year of his contract. They bumped from around $3MM to over $5MM. Again, I'll have to look it up but that's the way I remember it.
I thought they should have just made him play out his deal or get cut. I do admit that when it comes to Osi, I have very little tolerance.

And as far as Tuck goes, no none loves him more than me (well there's Mrs. Tuck I guess). But I love the guy. But that was a huge contract for a guy with one healthy season. And the Webby deal was for a guy who had a couple good playoff games. Again, I like Webby a lot, but it seemed an overreaction to the euphoria of our SB win.
That's just my opinion.

Well I looked it up RF, it seems that I was right that 2012 was the last year in his old deal. He got a new deal for around $6MM with was $2.25M more than he would have earned. While it was technically an extension, it really wasn't since the second year was easily viodable. So essentially, they gave his a raise of $2.25MM in order to keep him from whining.
I don't like that kind of deal.

Personally, I wish they had released Osi last year, but I don't get to make that call.

You didn't have to look for the stats, I would believe whatever you said.

Delicreep
01-03-2013, 11:26 AM
Well your blind trust in JR or anyone is novel, but a tad naive in my view.
Yes JR does his best but the reality is that we have a huge cap number this season due in part to our constant policy of restructuring huge contracts. An example is Eli's contract. We restructured his contract last season to reduce his cap number in 2012 to around $9MM. We did that to make room for guys like Bennett and other FA's, Well the consequence of that is his cap hit for the next 2 years is over $20MM.

Our GM is fallible just like anyone else. As I said, i don't know what their plan is this coming year. I'm sure the Webby cap hit last year and this coming year is a source of great regret. (Again..JR is fallible) I know they are doing what they believe they need to, but that doesn't make it right.
Its not unreasonable to question some of these moves and wonder aloud on the New York Giants MB whether or not some of these decisions will hurt our chances down the road.

Can you let me know what option I have other than blind trust?

For that matter, what option do the fans of the Raiders have other than blind trust?

I am not going to pretend that I have even a basic understanding of caponomics*, the effect of much of the restructuring, the available options other than restructuring and the effect of cutting people outright.

And even if I did have a mastery of the subject, I am here on a couch with no authority other than to make this post.

Here's what I do know...the guys running the show for the Giants are the most successful group in the last decade.







* I want a nickle every time that word is used from now on.

RoanokeFan
01-03-2013, 11:38 AM
Can you let me know what option I have other than blind trust?

For that matter, what option do the fans of the Raiders have other than blind trust?

I am not going to pretend that I have even a basic understanding of caponomics*, the effect of much of the restructuring, the available options other than restructuring and the effect of cutting people outright.

And even if I did have a mastery of the subject, I am here on a couch with no authority other than to make this post.

Here's what I do know...the guys running the show for the Giants are the most successful group in the last decade.







* I want a nickle every time that word is used from now on.n

Can I get a multiple use discount?

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 11:38 AM
Can you let me know what option I have other than blind trust?

For that matter, what option do the fans of the Raiders have other than blind trust?

I am not going to pretend that I have even a basic understanding of caponomics*, the effect of much of the restructuring, the available options other than restructuring and the effect of cutting people outright.

And even if I did have a mastery of the subject, I am here on a couch with no authority other than to make this post.

Here's what I do know...the guys running the show for the Giants are the most successful group in the last decade.







* I want a nickle every time that word is used from now on.

We're just talking about for the purposes of discussion.
My point is that we should be able to discuss our agreement or disagreement with anything the FO does without some poster saying that "JR knows more than you" as some kind of blanket retort to end the discussion.

Toadofsteel
01-03-2013, 11:40 AM
Are you saying Reese is alone in this? No other teams face these problems? We don't wan them to spend the CAP to be able to contend?

I want Reese to spend the cap, but I want him to spend it on players that will actually have a positive impact on our team. Diehl, despite his declining ability over the last two years, is going to incur a cap hike from a manageable 4.5M in 2012 to 7.5M in 2013. Tuck, despite doing jack this year, is going to be a 5.6M hit. Baas is 6.7M. And that's not even bringing up Rolle, Canty, etc. that are valuable players to us but still are major cap hits.

The big problem I'm seeing now is that most of the good players are free agents (Eli, JPP, and Nicks are the only critical players we have that are still under contract), and most of the underperformers are signed through the year already... We're not going to be able to sign all of Cruz, the Browns, Marty, and KP, which are the 5 high-priority Giants FA. We'd be lucky to get 3 of them. Because we got screwed over by all this restructuring...

CDN_G-FAN
01-03-2013, 12:01 PM
I want Reese to spend the cap, but I want him to spend it on players that will actually have a positive impact on our team. Diehl, despite his declining ability over the last two years, is going to incur a cap hike from a manageable 4.5M in 2012 to 7.5M in 2013. Tuck, despite doing jack this year, is going to be a 5.6M hit. Baas is 6.7M. And that's not even bringing up Rolle, Canty, etc. that are valuable players to us but still are major cap hits.

The big problem I'm seeing now is that most of the good players are free agents (Eli, JPP, and Nicks are the only critical players we have that are still under contract), and most of the underperformers are signed through the year already... We're not going to be able to sign all of Cruz, the Browns, Marty, and KP, which are the 5 high-priority Giants FA. We'd be lucky to get 3 of them. Because we got screwed over by all this restructuring...

technically, i think we're screwed by free agent signings from outside the organization. i don't know how many of the players you've mentioned we actually restructured, or was this just how their deals were originally drawn up.

we've invested $18 million a season (in 2013 cap dollars) between Rolle and Canty. and i think we have some dead money from restructuring rocky too.

any restructuring was what Reese was doing because of these FA signings that while they've been productive for us, haven't been good bang for our buck at all.


the Webby thing is also really screwing us. Webby Rolle and Canty = $27 million in cap $. That makes me sick. Sick.

Harooni
01-03-2013, 12:48 PM
Sure they are ... we didn't re-sign or restructure Smith or Boss and we did restructure Diehl. but that is exactly the point Krunch , we were already in such bad cap shape that we then could not afford to re-sign them. we also were forced to play guys we would normally not play because we could not afford to upgrade in FA.

gumby74
01-03-2013, 12:55 PM
technically, i think we're screwed by free agent signings from outside the organization. i don't know how many of the players you've mentioned we actually restructured, or was this just how their deals were originally drawn up.

we've invested $18 million a season (in 2013 cap dollars) between Rolle and Canty. and i think we have some dead money from restructuring rocky too.

any restructuring was what Reese was doing because of these FA signings that while they've been productive for us, haven't been good bang for our buck at all.


the Webby thing is also really screwing us. Webby Rolle and Canty = $27 million in cap $. That makes me sick. Sick.

As much as I'm a Reese homer, his FA signings make me scratch my head.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 12:56 PM
but that is exactly the point Krunch , we were already in such bad cap shape that we then could not afford to re-sign them. we also were forced to play guys we would normally not play because we could not afford to upgrade in FA.

It wasn't we couldn't afford Boss or Smith ... we just didn't want to pay what they wanted.

And losing Smith eventually led to us having Cruz and go on to win another SB.

Not to mention both Smith and Boss went on to do absolutely nothing in the league.

I'd call that pretty damn good management, wouldn't you?

Harooni
01-03-2013, 01:04 PM
It wasn't we couldn't afford Boss or Smith ... we just didn't want to pay what they wanted.

And losing Smith eventually led to us having Cruz and go on to win another SB.

Not to mention both Smith and Boss went on to do absolutely nothing in the league.

I'd call that pretty damn good management, wouldn't you?

i thought it was the right moves but again mostly because we were trying to get under the cap.


krunch can you do me a favor, i cant find the 2013 cap penalties for , canty ,diehl, tuck, webster,boley and baas . if cut or traded,

thanks if you have them

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 01:14 PM
i thought it was the right moves but again mostly because we were trying to get under the cap.


krunch can you do me a favor, i cant find the 2013 cap penalties for , canty ,diehl, tuck, webster,boley and baas . if cut or traded,

thanks if you have them

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/

Click on the individual to get the contract specifics. You save base salary and the first $150-250k of the "Misc. Bonus" which is typically the work out bonus (assuming you're cutting before OTAs). Signing bonuses and the remainder of the Misc. Bonus must be paid if cut.

This doesn't include any weirdness in the contract itself (such as deferrals and what not which are rarities).

At least that's how the aliens explained it to me.

Harooni
01-03-2013, 01:19 PM
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/

Click on the individual to get the contract specifics. You save base salary and the first $150-250k of the "Misc. Bonus" which is typically the work out bonus (assuming you're cutting before OTAs). Signing bonuses and the remainder of the Misc. Bonus must be paid if cut.

This doesn't include any weirdness in the contract itself (such as deferrals and what not which are rarities).

At least that's how the aliens explained it to me. lol thanks i used this site and saw they had 2012 hits but was too lazy to break it down and did not want to do the math wrong. was hoping it was done so i can evaluate for myself who should be cut

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 01:21 PM
lol thanks i used this site and saw they had 2012 hits but was too lazy to break it down and did not want to do the math wrong. was hoping it was done so i can evaluate for myself who should be cut

START > Programs > Calculator

Or grab one of these bad boys:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=abacus&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Harooni
01-03-2013, 01:22 PM
START > Programs > Calculator

Or grab one of these bad boys:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=abacus&_sacat=0&_from=R40

i know calulator but i was saying i didnt want to subtract the bonus wrong or guaranteed portion. it gets tricky sometimes.

so i guess im asking you to do it. since you did rolles. :)

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 02:25 PM
i know calulator but i was saying i didnt want to subtract the bonus wrong or guaranteed portion. it gets tricky sometimes.

so i guess im asking you to do it. since you did rolles. :)

K ... I beamed it to your tin foil hat. Let me know when you get it.

Mercury
01-03-2013, 02:31 PM
I always thought of it as smoke and mirrors, but now I see the money is future money and we will end up paying for it when the time comes, if it isn't already here.

Safe to say we will not be making any sexy moves this off-season. Makes me wonder if we can even afford to resign Cruz.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 03:03 PM
I always thought of it as smoke and mirrors, but now I see the money is future money and we will end up paying for it when the time comes, if it isn't already here.

Safe to say we will not be making any sexy moves this off-season. Makes me wonder if we can even afford to resign Cruz.

Cruz is an RFA ... if they can't come to terms, they'd tender him as a 1st and 3rd (meaning a team would have to give us a 1st and 3rd if we weren't willing to pay what they were to keep him).

However if we went that route and Cruz has another 1000+ season in 2013, then in 2014 (when he'd be an unrestricted free agent) he'd easily be a $10+ million guy.

Cruz will definitely be a Giant in 2013 (96% chance). 2014 is the big question. I'm hoping they give him a 5 year $40 million contract extension or something to that effect this year instead of a 4 year $45 million contract next year which is what he'll command if he performs.

Toadofsteel
01-03-2013, 03:14 PM
Cruz is an RFA ... if they can't come to terms, they'd tender him as a 1st and 3rd (meaning a team would have to give us a 1st and 3rd if we weren't willing to pay what they were to keep him).

However if we went that route and Cruz has another 1000+ season in 2013, then in 2014 (when he'd be an unrestricted free agent) he'd easily be a $10+ million guy.

Cruz will definitely be a Giant in 2013 (96% chance). 2014 is the big question. I'm hoping they give him a 5 year $40 million contract extension or something to that effect this year instead of a 4 year $45 million contract next year which is what he'll command if he performs.

The thing that's nice about this is that more of the cruft is going to be FA in 2014. Webby, Tuck, etc... and then we wouldn't have to suffer the cap hits to let them walk.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 03:52 PM
The thing that's nice about this is that more of the cruft is going to be FA in 2014. Webby, Tuck, etc... and then we wouldn't have to suffer the cap hits to let them walk.

Yup ... maybe Reese isn't so dumb after all ;)

Also it's important to note that the salary cap is based on league revenue (in part). So we could see a large jump in the cap within the next two years.

Morehead State
01-03-2013, 03:53 PM
Yup ... maybe Reese isn't so dumb after all ;)

Also it's important to note that the salary cap is based on league revenue (in part). So we could see a large jump in the cap within the next two years.
So will every team.

TuckandRolle
01-03-2013, 03:57 PM
The last thing the Giants will do is try to rebuild while Eli Manning is in his prime. They want to win and win now. They'll fill voids and I expect the next 3 years to be very good for us.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 04:23 PM
The last thing the Giants will do is try to rebuild while Eli Manning is in his prime. They want to win and win now. They'll fill voids and I expect the next 3 years to be very good for us.

Historically, Reese isn't above replacing players after their first contract.

Boss, Smith, Tollefson, Ross and Goff just to name a few.

The idea is to be constantly "rebuilding" rather than totally collapse one year. What the Colts have managed to do is almost unprecendented in the NFL (especially if they keep it up going forward). I just wish we could do it while maintaining slightly stronger regular seasons.