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RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 04:11 PM
While you are completely correct Roanoke, the media reports themselves are still not going to do us any good.
You have to believe that Cruz, and especially his agent, have seen all 3000 headlines by now that claim he is worth $8-10 mil a season.

If agents are relying on the media to determine their negotiation strategy they may as well use a ouija board. The negotiations began long before this media head "guess" and there are any number of facts that will factor in to what Cruz will ask for which should not be confused with what the team is willing to pay. What other receivers of similar circumstance are paid will factor in as will the fact that Cruz is pretty high up on the passes dropped list.

I don't think there's any doubt they want Cruz to remain a Giant with a long term contract. His back to back 1,000 yard seasons can't be ignored as well as his Pro Bowl selection. While I'm the first to point to the Pro Bowl as little more than a beauty contest , players like having that to point to when negotiating.

I don't know what's going to happen, but I think it's better than an 85% chance Cruz remains a GIANT

Morehead State
01-04-2013, 04:15 PM
The relevance is that there are a couple teams in the league (*cough* raiders *cough*) who would be more than willing to pay that amount when Cruz starts to believe that's what he's worth. And the only thing I'm saying is that the nonstop media reports claiming that's what he's going to be asking for are definitely not helping one way or the other.

You and I both know that.
Cruz and his agent know what they are looking for. To suggest that its now higher because a bunch of media folks and posters on MB's say he's worth it, would be to presuppose that Cruz and his agent are a couple of morons.
The only thing that matters is what 32 teams are willing to pay for his services. What REALLY matters right now is what the Giants think they can sign him for based on the market and our needs as a football team.
NOTHING that's been said over the past 2 or 3 days would change that in any way.

ANON837
01-04-2013, 04:16 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giant...qMvKqFlZLrp39M (http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/giants/on_receiving_end_HNxZ5ewtqMvKqFlZLrp39M)

Excerpt: "Victor Cruz has done enough to convince the Giants he deserves to be wearing his No. 80 jersey and doing his salsa in the end zone for a long time. It is going to cost the Giants dearly, though, to get him locked up with a multi-year deal.

Cruz is set to become a restricted free agent and hes not going anywhere, as the Giants know they cannot operate their offense without his skills at receiver. They would likely tender him on a one-year deal if they cannot agree on a long-term contract.After playing for the NFL minimums the past three years, Cruz wont come cheap, not after two outstanding seasons by a 26-year-old on the upside of his career. His asking price is expected to be somewhere between $8 million and $10 million per year. Cruz made $540,000 this season and the last two years he has been the greatest bargain in the league.

I think I feel comfortable where were at, Cruz said yesterday on his weekly WFAN spot. I think Ive done enough to show them Im a good guy on and off the field and Ive done everything positive up until this point to prove that Im somebody the organization will want to keep around for a long time. Im positive things will come around and a positive outcome will come out of all this.

Cruz has previously said he wanted a new deal in place before the end of the season and revealed weeks ago that he believed the structure for such a deal was in place. Talks, he reported, got tabled for a couple weeks mainly because the two sides agreeing to disagree at the same time. Now that the season is over and the statistics are what they are I think were gonna get back and pick up the pen again and see what we can do.Cruz is one of 22 free agents for the Giants to sort through but he figures to be a top priority. Fellow receiver Hakeem Nicks was slowed all season with foot and ankle issues, allowing opposing defenses to swing the attention to Cruz. Still, he caught 86 passes for 1,092 yards and 10 touchdowns, all team highs. He hasnt missed a game in two years.

A year ago, the free agent market produced some hefty salaries for receivers and Cruz will benefit from that spending spree. After all, he compares favorably to DeSean Jackson (five years, $47 million), Robert Meachem (four years, $25.9 million) and Pierre Garcon (five years, $42.5 million). Cruz two-year totals (168 catches, 2,628 yards, 19 touchdowns) are better than any two seasons put together by Vincent Jackson and he signed a five year, $55.6 million mega deal with the Buccaneers." Read more...
8 - 10 million? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

M00KIE
01-04-2013, 04:53 PM
CRUZ IS N OT MAKING THAT DEMAND, that is the writer's uneducated guess

Hah! You can post that 1000 times, it won't matter. The story has wings now man...Cat's out of the bag and all that....The frenzy has begun. :D

RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 04:55 PM
Hah! You can post that 1000 times, it won't matter. The story has wings now man...Cat's out of the bag and all that....The frenzy has begun. :D

I laughed yesterday when someone posted "I didn't read the article but....."

GiantLegend
01-04-2013, 04:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYiBzjJAvgk

JayMas9
01-04-2013, 05:14 PM
I really have to giggle at the people that think we're going to let our 2nd best offensive player this year (arguably best) walk, even though he has produced in back to back years. This isn't Steve Smith people, he's a cornerstone of our offense, one of the best slot guys in football, and can play outside pretty well too.

giants8493
01-04-2013, 05:50 PM
I still say we should let cruz go and just sign Bowe for 3 mil. Spend that money on the trenches

Ruttiger711
01-04-2013, 09:22 PM
I really have to giggle at the people that think we're going to let our 2nd best offensive player this year (arguably best) walk, even though he has produced in back to back years. This isn't Steve Smith people, he's a cornerstone of our offense, one of the best slot guys in football, and can play outside pretty well too.So what do you think he's worth?

gmen0820
01-04-2013, 09:24 PM
I don't think Nicks is in the same category as Bradshaw who is perennially injured. But I do think the style of play for a running back and wide receiver require different skill sets. Nicks had a broken foot which healed and then the knee. I am assuming his knee will heal up with a few months rest and or some medical procedure if indicated.I think the knee was the real culprit this season. Before the knee issue arose, Nicks completely dominated the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. We didn't learn about the knee until after that game, when he had the surprising missed game vs the Panthers on Thursday, and then again vs. the Eagles.

Flip Empty
01-04-2013, 09:28 PM
I still say we should let cruz go and just sign Bowe for 3 mil. Spend that money on the trenches
What makes you think Bowe will come that cheap? He'll be one of the top targets this off-season.

Ruttiger711
01-04-2013, 09:35 PM
I think the knee was the real culprit this season. Before the knee issue arose, Nicks completely dominated the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. We didn't learn about the knee until after that game, when he had the surprising missed game vs the Panthers on Thursday, and then again vs. the Eagles.Don't forget though that he had that almost fully healed foot stepped on towards the end of the Tampa game too. Major setbacks for him after just killing Tampa.

Rudyy
01-04-2013, 09:36 PM
Don't forget though that he had that almost fully healed foot stepped on towards the end of the Tampa game too. Major setbacks for him after just killing Tampa.Bittersweet game for Nicks :/

appodictic
01-04-2013, 09:44 PM
I think Cruz is obviously a great player. But once nicks slowed down so did cruz's production. If he dominent he would have had 2000 yards this season. Instead he got pretty much taken away down the stretch.

gmen0820
01-04-2013, 09:49 PM
Don't forget though that he had that almost fully healed foot stepped on towards the end of the Tampa game too. Major setbacks for him after just killing Tampa.As dominant a performance if I've seen one. Granted, terrible secondary, but Nicks is a difference maker and absolute nightmare for defenses when he is healthy.

Top 5 receiver when healthy, no question.

NYGabriel
01-04-2013, 09:53 PM
Wes Welker is a free agent at the end of the season right?

gmen0820
01-04-2013, 09:54 PM
Wes Welker is a free agent at the end of the season right?Too expensive, and I think we're alright at the slot position.

RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 09:57 PM
I think Cruz is obviously a great player. But once nicks slowed down so did cruz's production. If he dominent he would have had 2000 yards this season. Instead he got pretty much taken away down the stretch.

Can you name the receivers who've had 2,000 yard seasons?

gmen0820
01-04-2013, 10:00 PM
Can you name the receivers who've had 2,000 yard seasons?Allow me:

RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 10:02 PM
Allow me:

Surely you wrote the answer in invisible font

TheEnigma
01-04-2013, 10:03 PM
Can you name the receivers who've had 2,000 yard seasons?

Pffffft. I get receivers hitting 2000 all the time in Madden and my QB reaches 5500 passing like it's tying his shoes. Maybe I'm the best offensive coordinator no one knows about?

gmen0820
01-04-2013, 10:04 PM
Surely you wrote the answer in invisible fontWe'll never know, and I don't plan on telling.

Flip Empty
01-04-2013, 10:06 PM
Wes Welker is a free agent at the end of the season right?

I wonder if the Patriots will make a run at Cruz... (I've no idea what their cap situation is like)

TheEnigma
01-04-2013, 10:08 PM
I wonder if the Patriots will make a run at Cruz... (I've no idea what their cap situation is like)

Always have to be worried about what the Patriots are up to. That team gets some of the most ridiculous deals (in their favor) that I've seen in the modern era.

RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 10:17 PM
If the Giants don't sign Cruz, I hope Dallas picks him up

RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 10:17 PM
Pffffft. I get receivers hitting 2000 all the time in Madden and my QB reaches 5500 passing like it's tying his shoes. Maybe I'm the best offensive coordinator no one knows about?

LMAO..I surrender

Ruttiger711
01-04-2013, 11:01 PM
If the Giants don't sign Cruz, I hope Dallas picks him up

Uhhh why? I know he grew up a fan but that would hurt worse than Smith going to Philly!

RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 11:06 PM
Uhhh why? I know he grew up a fan but that would hurt worse than Smith going to Philly!

To be a reminder twice a year how badly we screwed up

gmen0820
01-04-2013, 11:08 PM
To be a reminder twice a year how badly we screwed upCruz would tear it up in Dallas. Him, Dez Bryant, and Miles Austin would be the best trio in the league.

RoanokeFan
01-04-2013, 11:21 PM
Cruz would tear it up in Dallas. Him, Dez Bryant, and Miles Austin would be the best trio in the league.

No doubt

Ruttiger711
01-05-2013, 12:15 AM
To be a reminder twice a year how badly we screwed upWe would be lucky if only reminded twice a year.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:52 AM
This may be uneducated guess but cruz play too incosistent for me, one game he running around for many tds the next he very quiet and running around scared like a mouse. Until he makes big plays every game he is not a big time player I am comfortable with 5-6m for 4 years and with nicks he is very injury prone he is injured every year i love nicks he is most pshyical wr in the nfl with huge hands and is very talented but i am comfortable 4-5m for 4 years with him

Flip Empty
01-05-2013, 01:58 AM
This may be uneducated guess but cruz play too incosistent for me, one game he running around for many tds the next he very quiet and running around scared like a mouse. Until he makes big plays every game he is not a big time player I am comfortable with 5-6m for 4 years and with nicks he is very injury prone he is injured every year i love nicks he is most pshyical wr in the nfl with huge hands and is very talented but i am comfortable 4-5m for 4 years with him
Nicks being hobbled hurt as defenses could lock on to him. He still clocked over 1000 yards, though. Pretty impressive. He's certainly not the one trick pony that detractors tried to label him as.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:59 AM
Flip I agree 100% he is one of most talented wr's in the NFL but his style of play holds him back he is injured constantly from being so physical with the db's and it tires his body out.

Rat_bastich
01-05-2013, 02:01 AM
This may be uneducated guess but cruz play too incosistent for me, one game he running around for many tds the next he very quiet and running around scared like a mouse. Until he makes big plays every game he is not a big time player I am comfortable with 5-6m for 4 years and with nicks he is very injury prone he is injured every year i love nicks he is most pshyical wr in the nfl with huge hands and is very talented but i am comfortable 4-5m for 4 years with him

There were games that Cruz was dropping balls, but he was probably one of the most consistent parts of the offense. He could only be as good as his quarterback who made alot of mistakes too. He was not afraid to play the slot and took hits without fear. It's not my money, but I say pay the man whatever they can to keep him here. We have the most dynamic group of receivers we have ever had as an organization.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 02:04 AM
Cruz forgot he was undrafted free agent and he let fame get to him and now he thinks hes a big shot if he was more humble like nicks he would be a top 5 wr, right now he top 10 because he is a scared slot reciever who is very good but afraid. do not tell me he was not afraid he was dropping balls because he was scared of getting hit and his stupid comments with "omg i am so good now i can catch the ball without seeing it omg" he is a bit ovverrated.

Antwuan
01-05-2013, 03:50 AM
Hey I love Victor Cruz, but we can't pay him 8 to 10 MM/year. Not if we want to address other needs.

And for those who think Randle is a replacement for Nicks...I disagree. He was drafted as a replacement for Manningham. Nicks is the best WR on the team and is a top 5 WR in the league as far as I'm concerned. He's probably the best WR the Giants have ever had. Certainly since I've been a fan.

His problem is health. That damned broken foot caused all kinds of related problems this season. I can see us seeing if he can get healthy this coming season before we make a huge financial commitment to him.

Do you think Hakeem Nicks is better Amani Toomer?

Rat_bastich
01-05-2013, 04:00 AM
Cruz forgot he was undrafted free agent and he let fame get to him and now he thinks hes a big shot if he was more humble like nicks he would be a top 5 wr, right now he top 10 because he is a scared slot reciever who is very good but afraid. do not tell me he was not afraid he was dropping balls because he was scared of getting hit and his stupid comments with "omg i am so good now i can catch the ball without seeing it omg" he is a bit ovverrated.

Where did he make those comments? And, he is probably one of the most humble guys on the team. I attribute the dropped balls to a lack of concentration but when he had the ball his yards after catch were amazing. There was no way he was going to match the production he had last year, but his numbers were still impressive. He was targeted 143 times and made 86 of those catches. His number of successful catches per target were just as good or better than the top receivers to include Megatron.

nhpgiantsfan
01-05-2013, 07:27 AM
Do you think Hakeem Nicks is better Amani Toomer?

When healthy Nicks is one of the best in the game. It's not even a discussion between him and Toomer.

Ruttiger711
01-05-2013, 09:20 AM
Do you think Hakeem Nicks is better Amani Toomer?Chiming in to say ABSOLUTELY

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 09:23 AM
Chiming in to say ABSOLUTELY

He might not be as well dressed, but a better play maker..

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 10:09 AM
Cruz forgot he was undrafted free agent and he let fame get to him and now he thinks hes a big shot if he was more humble like nicks he would be a top 5 wr, right now he top 10 because he is a scared slot reciever who is very good but afraid. do not tell me he was not afraid he was dropping balls because he was scared of getting hit and his stupid comments with "omg i am so good now i can catch the ball without seeing it omg" he is a bit ovverrated.

You're wrong, but it's your opinion

Ruttiger711
01-05-2013, 10:29 AM
He might not be as well dressed, but a better play maker..Well yes, there will never be another "well dressed Amani Toomer"

nhpgiantsfan
01-05-2013, 10:30 AM
You're wrong, but it's your opinion

I am not going to call him overrated, but he definately has shown some fear of getting popped when going across the middle.

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 10:32 AM
I am not going to call him overrated, but he definately has shown some fear of getting popped when going across the middle.

To not be nervous over the middle and trying to protect yourself is just plain dumb. Why would you not worry about hurting yourself for 10 yards, possibly ending your career. I know I'd worry about that, no matter how much balls you have..

nhpgiantsfan
01-05-2013, 10:43 AM
To not be nervous over the middle and trying to protect yourself is just plain dumb. Why would you not worry about hurting yourself for 10 yards, possibly ending your career. I know I'd worry about that, no matter how much balls you have..

Well it's part of the job. Your in the wrong profession if you are scared of a big hit. I'm not trying to knock the guy. He is a big time play maker. But you could def see it.

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 10:45 AM
Well it's part of the job. Your in the wrong profession if you are scared of a big hit. I'm not trying to knock the guy. He is a big time play maker. But you could def see it.

I guess the questions then is how does a "scared" player have back to back 1,000 yard seasons?

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 10:48 AM
Well it's part of the job. Your in the wrong profession if you are scared of a big hit. I'm not trying to knock the guy. He is a big time play maker. But you could def see it.

Yup he is a little sketchy on those plays but he still goes over the middle.. so he's coping with it. I agree, hes not too scared considering he has back to back 1000 yard seasons! :)

GameTime
01-05-2013, 10:52 AM
the Giants know who they want and they know what it will take to kkep the plays they can.
They will give Cruz what they think he is worth. As a fan we 0 control over that. Whatever they pay him I dont care.....its their problem to figure out....

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 10:54 AM
the Giants know who they want and they know what it will take to kkep the plays they can.
They will give Cruz what they think he is worth. As a fan we 0 control over that. Whatever they pay him I dont care.....its their problem to figure out....

And a gracious good day to you :)

GameTime
01-05-2013, 10:55 AM
And a gracious good day to you :)
Hey Ro.....

good day to you as well

nhpgiantsfan
01-05-2013, 10:57 AM
Yup he is a little sketchy on those plays but he still goes over the middle.. so he's coping with it. I agree, hes not too scared considering he has back to back 1000 yard seasons! :)

Because he is a real good player. He just has some issues when he knows the big hit is coming.

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 11:00 AM
Because he is a real good player. He just has some issues when he knows the big hit is coming.

He is one of the better WR's the Giants have had. I can't remember too many WR's in my lifetime that can watch a 5 yard out and break it up the field for 80 yards. Or make the DB fall out of his shoes on a hook route and run 80 yards..

Flip Empty
01-05-2013, 11:01 AM
Because he is a real good player. He just has some issues when he knows the big hit is coming.
Self-preservation isn't necessarily a bad thing - Cruz hasn't missed a game since earning a starting role.

GameTime
01-05-2013, 11:03 AM
Self-preservation isn't necessarily a bad thing - Cruz hasn't missed a game since earning a starting role.
so they guy makes 86 catches gets over 1000 yards and 10 TDs and we're gonna complain about a few times he pulled up....
get real guys.......

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 11:03 AM
Hey Ro.....

god day to you as well

Tough not having a dog in the playoff hunt

GameTime
01-05-2013, 11:05 AM
Tough not having a dog in the playoff hunt

yeah....but think of the agita I will not get over the next few weeks....lol
Cant be there every year. Just hope this isnt a trend and that they will be back next season in the hunt....

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 11:06 AM
yeah....but think of the agita I will not get over the next few weeks....lol
Cant be there every year. Just hope this isnt a trend and that they will be back next season in the hunt....


We are not far off, only a few pieces missing. We were only 2 FG's short of a 5-1 divison record and an 11-5 season record..

GameTime
01-05-2013, 11:08 AM
We are not far off, only a few pieces missing. We were only 2 FG's short of a 5-1 divison record and an 11-5 season record..
I prefer to say they were only one team win away from getting in.....
Tynes kept them in a few games they may have other wise lost......

Flip Empty
01-05-2013, 11:09 AM
so they guy makes 86 catches gets over 1000 yards and 10 TDs and we're gonna complain about a few times he pulled up....
get real guys.......
It's like complaining about Tynes' misses even though he comprised the majority of the team's scoring output in several games.

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 11:10 AM
I prefer to say they were only one team win away from getting in.....
Tynes kept them in a few games they may have other wise lost......

The Eagles and Redskins game come to mind... sickness.. lol

GameTime
01-05-2013, 11:26 AM
The Eagles and Redskins game come to mind... sickness.. lol

I know....I hear you but like I said the FGs kept them in games then did win that they may have not.
Its a team sport...win or lose......
The FGs are not what killed the Giants season overall.......

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 11:29 AM
I know....I hear you but like I said the FGs kept them in games then did win that they may have not.
Its a team sport...win or lose......
The FGs are not what killed the Giants season overall.......

Nope they are not, the team is what killed the Giants season overall. Not one player, all of the players as a whole.

GameTime
01-05-2013, 11:30 AM
Nope they are not, the team is what killed the Giants season overall. Not one player, all of the players as a whole.

truth

Morehead State
01-05-2013, 11:34 AM
Do you think Hakeem Nicks is better Amani Toomer?
Absolutely.

Morehead State
01-05-2013, 11:36 AM
Cruz forgot he was undrafted free agent and he let fame get to him and now he thinks hes a big shot if he was more humble like nicks he would be a top 5 wr, right now he top 10 because he is a scared slot reciever who is very good but afraid. do not tell me he was not afraid he was dropping balls because he was scared of getting hit and his stupid comments with "omg i am so good now i can catch the ball without seeing it omg" he is a bit ovverrated.
I assume you meant for this entire pile of ridiculous babble to be in red...so I fixed it for you.

You're welcome.

ny06
01-05-2013, 11:36 AM
Nope they are not, the team is what killed the Giants season overall. Not one player, all of the players as a whole.
I still blame CC Brown ;)

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 11:45 AM
I still blame CC Brown ;)

lol, I blame him, Tynes, Cruz and David Wilson because of his fumble at the begining of the year..

Flip Empty
01-05-2013, 11:46 AM
Nah, it was Eli doing that Dunkin Donuts thing that sank the team.

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 11:48 AM
Nah, it was Eli doing that Dunkin Donuts thing that sank the team.

Nope, Victor Cruz's deal with Jay-Z..

Flip Empty
01-05-2013, 11:53 AM
Nope, Victor Cruz's deal with Jay-Z..
You mean the Illuminati? Hmm, plausible...


Actually, it was probably this pic that did it:

http://i.imgur.com/PrJae.jpg

There's just no coming back from something like that.

EnragedYouth85
01-05-2013, 11:58 AM
You mean the Illuminati? Hmm, plausible...


Actually, it was probably this pic that did it:

http://i.imgur.com/PrJae.jpg

There's just no coming back from something like that.

lolol

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 12:26 PM
yeah....but think of the agita I will not get over the next few weeks....lol
Cant be there every year. Just hope this isnt a trend and that they will be back next season in the hunt....

At least we don't need a rebuild

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:46 PM
[/COLOR]
I assume you meant for this entire pile of ridiculous babble to be in red...so I fixed it for you.

You're welcome.

Morehead you are back to pick on me but listen up you mean nothing to me or anyone else on this board so any of your comments that are non football related are completely worthless.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:47 PM
Where did he make those comments? And, he is probably one of the most humble guys on the team. I attribute the dropped balls to a lack of concentration but when he had the ball his yards after catch were amazing. There was no way he was going to match the production he had last year, but his numbers were still impressive. He was targeted 143 times and made 86 of those catches. His number of successful catches per target were just as good or better than the top receivers to include Megatron.

He is nowhere near as good as Calvin Johnson or one of the top 3 or 5 recievers in the nfl, he made them in the offseason.

Sarcasman
01-05-2013, 02:07 PM
You mean the Illuminati? Hmm, plausible...


Actually, it was probably this pic that did it:

http://i.imgur.com/PrJae.jpg

There's just no coming back from something like that.




Based on this, I have decided that the kid in the blue bathing suit behind him has a better NFL arm than Eli.

Sarcasman
01-05-2013, 02:09 PM
He is nowhere near as good as Calvin Johnson or one of the top 3 or 5 recievers in the nfl, he made them in the offseason.


I don't think anyone is claiming that Cruz is an elite receiver, he's clearly not. But he's damn good and I hope we can keep him.

BlueReign
01-05-2013, 02:11 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming that Cruz is an elite receiver, he's clearly not. But he's damn good and I hope we can keep him.
I hope to keep him too, but not for $8-$10 mil/season

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 02:14 PM
He is nowhere near as good as Calvin Johnson or one of the top 3 or 5 recievers in the nfl, he made them in the offseason.

What did he make in the offseason?

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 02:14 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming that Cruz is an elite receiver, he's clearly not. But he's damn good and I hope we can keep him.

He's been the leading receiver here for two seasons, isn't that what matters?

Sarcasman
01-05-2013, 02:15 PM
He's been the leading receiver here for two seasons, isn't that what matters?


Yes. Which is why I said he's damn good and I hope we can keep him!

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 02:16 PM
Yes. Which is why I said he's damn good and I hope we can keep him!

I'm guessing Eli would like to have Cruz and a healthy Nicks back as well

Morehead State
01-05-2013, 02:33 PM
Morehead you are back to pick on me but listen up you mean nothing to me or anyone else on this board so any of your comments that are non football related are completely worthless.
Have I dealt with you before?
I really don't remember you....Sorry.
But as one of God's creatures...you DO mean something to me.

giants8493
01-05-2013, 02:36 PM
Imagine we sign cruz AND Bowe for 5 mil a year total. I think he would take a salary cut to know what it is like to have a quarter back on the team.

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 02:36 PM
Have I dealt with you before?
I really don't remember you....Sorry.
But as one of God's creatures...you DO mean something to me.

:confused:

Morehead State
01-05-2013, 02:41 PM
:confused:
Well if a guy tells me I'm picking on him again, I'd like to know who he is.
I'm not sure what he said to cause me to "pick on" him the first time, but I'm sure my retort was very witty.

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 02:42 PM
Well if a guy tells me I'm picking on him again, I'd like to know who he is.
I'm not sure what he said to cause me to "pick on" him the first time, but I'm sure my retort was very witty.

Of course, but don't look at usernames as we seem to have a flood of alter egos in our midst

"One of God's creatures" was a nice touch

Morehead State
01-05-2013, 02:45 PM
Of course, but don't look at usernames as we seem to have a flood of alter egos in our midst

"One of God's creatures" was a nice touch
I love all of God's creatures RF. Even when they're misguided.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 02:47 PM
Imagine we sign cruz AND Bowe for 5 mil a year total. I think he would take a salary cut to know what it is like to have a quarter back on the team.http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/v/vspfiles/images/landing_pages/pipedream/pipe_dream_elbow_05.jpg

Morehead State
01-05-2013, 02:49 PM
http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/v/vspfiles/images/landing_pages/pipedream/pipe_dream_elbow_05.jpg

Elbow joint floating over a field?

Oh I get it.....Pipe dream!

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 02:51 PM
http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/v/vspfiles/images/landing_pages/pipedream/pipe_dream_elbow_05.jpg

OK, I'm lost lol

giants8493
01-05-2013, 02:51 PM
http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/v/vspfiles/images/landing_pages/pipedream/pipe_dream_elbow_05.jpgI don't know what to say to this. But i think we would be so good with nicks Cruz and Bowe! Eli would have no excuse for throwing an incomplete pass.

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 02:53 PM
I don't know what to say to this. But i think we would be so good with nicks Cruz and Bowe! Eli would have no excuse for throwing an incomplete pass.

So that would give us a 100% completion rate over 16 regular season games?

giants8493
01-05-2013, 02:55 PM
So that would give us a 100% completion rate lover 16 regular season games?I sure hope so. But thats kind of a pipe dream...


90% more like it.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 02:56 PM
Elbow joint floating over a field?

Oh I get it.....Pipe dream!Great looks, great Fantasy Football team, intellect....

And an eye for detail?! My, oh my Morehead.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 02:57 PM
Whoops, forgot to add youth.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 02:58 PM
I don't know what to say to this. But i think we would be so good with nicks Cruz and Bowe! Eli would have no excuse for throwing an incomplete pass.Cruz-Nicks-Bowe-Randle. "So good" would be a disappointment.

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 03:01 PM
I sure hope so. But thats kind of a pipe dream...


90% more like it.

If they have Cruz and a healthy Nicks they will never go after another high priced FA because we don't need one to be successful. We have Randle and Jernigan, will likely have Hixon to round out the corps. We do pretty well with these guys when Eli is on his game. The CAP can only take so many bug names.

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:05 PM
If they have Cruz and a healthy Nicks they will never go after another high priced FA because we don't need one to be successful. We have Randle and Jernigan, will likely have Hixon to round out the corps. We do pretty well with these guys when Eli is on his game. The CAP can only take so many bug names.Thats why I was hoping to get Cruz and Bowe both for under 5 mil a year total. Kind of like a buy Cruz get Bowe FREE!! kind of deal. or 4 and 1 ... or 3 and 2... or whatever.


All im saying is if that happen we can expect the only incomplete pass to be drops. One of them will be open.

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 03:10 PM
Thats why I was hoping to get Cruz and Bowe both for under 5 mil a year total. Kind of like a buy Cruz get Bowe FREE!! kind of deal. or 4 and 1 ... or 3 and 2... or whatever.


All im saying is if that happen we can expect the only incomplete pass to be drops. One of them will be open.

Well, Eli is not known for 100% accuracy in good times, so be careful what you expect.

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:11 PM
Well, Eli is not known for 100% accuracy in good times, so be careful what you expect. WEll again 90% is more like it. Its still a legendary stat. Might even be the best of all time!

ShakeandBake
01-05-2013, 03:12 PM
Thats why I was hoping to get Cruz and Bowe both for under 5 mil a year total. Kind of like a buy Cruz get Bowe FREE!! kind of deal. or 4 and 1 ... or 3 and 2... or whatever.


All im saying is if that happen we can expect the only incomplete pass to be drops. One of them will be open.

Would never happen in this reality

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:14 PM
Would never happen in this realityI have seen personally much crazier things happen. Much Much Crazier. So crazy you wouldn't even bELIeve it.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 03:18 PM
I have seen personally much crazier things happen. Much Much Crazier. So crazy you wouldn't even bELIeve it.List the craziest things you've seen as it pertains to NFL contracts.

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:22 PM
List the craziest things you've seen as it pertains to NFL contracts.I will admit the crazy things I have seen are not related to the NFL.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 03:23 PM
I will admit the crazy things I have seen are not related to the NFL.Then -- with all due respect -- they're irrelevant. I'd love to see that WR corps you've dreamed up, but it's not happening.

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:28 PM
Then -- with all due respect -- they're irrelevant. I'd love to see that WR corps you've dreamed up, but it's not happening. Oh it can happen.
I don't think it will though.
But it sure can. Heck, I can think of two ways right now that don't involve cutting our entire team.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 03:30 PM
Oh it can happen.
I don't think it will though.
But it sure can. Heck, I can think of two ways right now that don't involve cutting our entire team.We could also trade for Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:33 PM
We could also trade for Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.No that is impossible. We can not make an offer good enough for them to consider that.

gmen0820
01-05-2013, 03:38 PM
No that is impossible. We can not make an offer good enough for them to consider that.I've seen crazier things happen ;)

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:40 PM
I've seen crazier things happen ;)Well I haven't. That makes what I was thinking of seem common. Wow I dont even want to know what you have seen. lol

ShakeandBake
01-05-2013, 03:56 PM
I've seen crazier things happen ;)

Yeah we could probably get both Brady and Peyton if we really wanted to

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:57 PM
Yeah we could probably get both Brady and Peyton if we really wanted tono shot they are untouchable

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 04:00 PM
Then -- with all due respect -- they're irrelevant. I'd love to see that WR corps you've dreamed up, but it's not happening.

When I think back to the Phil Simms era, we really didn't have a lot of big named receivers and we were pretty successful. With Eli, I really do believe we have the receivers who can get the job done right now.

Sarcasman
01-05-2013, 05:05 PM
Great looks, great Fantasy Football team, intellect....

And an eye for detail?! My, oh my Morehead.


He's dreamy all right....

primetime
01-05-2013, 05:08 PM
When I think back to the Phil Simms era, we really didn't have a lot of big named receivers and we were pretty successful. With Eli, I really do believe we have the receivers who can get the job done right now.
Who needs big time receivers when Simms had Rambo playing tightend

Cloud57
01-05-2013, 05:18 PM
Who needs big time receivers when Simms had Rambo playing tightendbut we have the JPP of tightends...

Morehead State
01-05-2013, 08:44 PM
He's dreamy all right....
You guys are making me blush.

Mostly because I know its true.

Rat_bastich
01-05-2013, 09:20 PM
Self-preservation isn't necessarily a bad thing - Cruz hasn't missed a game since earning a starting role.

I agree. It worked for Jerry Rice. Jerry Rice's ability was to catch the ball, immediately turn up the field and then go down and not take that awkward hit. It wasn't until the twilight of his career that he started getting injuries that could effect his career and even then he went on to play a bunch of more years. He was a pretty good YAC receiver as well.

Rat_bastich
01-05-2013, 09:32 PM
He is nowhere near as good as Calvin Johnson or one of the top 3 or 5 recievers in the nfl, he made them in the offseason.

My comparison to Megatron and other top receivers was to make a point that people were saying he had a case of the dropsies. He had no more case of the dropsies than other receivers to include the vaunted Megatron. Some were better, many were worse, but he was right there in the pack and had production as well. Even Jerry Rice dropped balls.

I also hope you are not talking about his stats being in the offseason because the Giants don't play in the offseason and did not make the post season. Plus, post season statistics stand on their own and are not part of the season totals.

The guy is good and has been for two years in the NFL and shown flashes in the first preseason that led the Giants to keeping him on the roster. He is by far one of the most consistent parts of the team.

I'm still looking for that lack of humility by the way but haven't seen it with Cruz.

Sovereign
01-05-2013, 09:42 PM
I don't know why Cruz is severely underrated by Giants fans. It's ridiculous.

RoanokeFan
01-05-2013, 10:40 PM
I don't know why Cruz is severely underrated by Giants fans. It's ridiculous.

Not most fans

Cloud57
01-05-2013, 10:43 PM
I don't know why Cruz is severely underrated by Giants fans. It's ridiculous.what?? Cruz is the most popular Giant player right now. I think fans object to giving him too much money because it will hurt this team in the long run.

Sarcasman
01-06-2013, 12:06 AM
I don't know why Cruz is severely underrated by Giants fans. It's ridiculous.


Who has under rated him?

Giantsfan241
01-06-2013, 01:02 AM
I don't see Cruz as the big time player some people see him as I'm not saying he;'s not great he's a top 7 wr but not top 3.

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 01:07 AM
Who's saying he's top 3? Megatron occupies spots 1-3.

FlyingTruck
01-06-2013, 01:54 AM
Wasn't he top 3 in drops? Does a guy like that deserve that type of money?

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 01:58 AM
Wasn't he top 3 in drops? Does a guy like that deserve that type of money?

First, the amount of money in this article is a GUESS by the author. Second, he's had back to back 1,000 yard seasons. Focusing on his drops and ignoring the positives is something only fans and the media do.

FlyingTruck
01-06-2013, 02:06 AM
First, the amount of money in this article is a GUESS by the author. Second, he's had back to back 1,000 yard seasons. Focusing on his drops and ignoring the positives is something only fans and the media do.
So the fact that he had a lot of KEY drops isn't important? Even though his JOB is to catch the ball?

GiantLegend
01-06-2013, 04:07 AM
So the fact that he had a lot of KEY drops isn't important? Even though his JOB is to catch the ball?

This.

The yards honesetly don't speak as loudly. Of course if you are a constant target and have some speed, like Cruz, you're going to get the yards. The drops are still not forgiveable.

To me Nicks is a stud playmaker receiver, and yes Cruz is good and has made some great plays, but I don't place him with Nicks.

Sovereign
01-06-2013, 05:12 AM
Who has under rated him?

Did you read the thread? Everyone is looking at the negatives of why he shouldn't be here anymore. Like the drops. Which is a pitiful argument sicne it's only a handufl of plays but it's apparently a huge issue. Yet none of these posters would claim Roddy White is a bad receiver depsite him being a consistent league leader in drops.

Hakeem during 2010 and 2011 was among league leaders in drops too but everyone loves Hakeem so they don't care. Cruz comes in has a great season, steals the shine from Nicks and now everyone can't wait to get rid of him.


So the fact that he had a lot of KEY drops isn't important? Even though his JOB is to catch the ball?

Jesus it's one year he had drops. Who's to say this wasn't a fluke? Cruz last year wasn't dropping the ball and all of a sudden he can't do his job anymore? Especially considering the flukeness of drops I don't know how anyone can come to the conclusion that this is a trend. Oh and please we all know the WR is supposed to catch, we aren't stupid.

I love how 10 dropped balls is enough for fans to trash Cruz after what he has produced however it doesn't mean anyhting. Look the the list guess who's tied with Cruz with 10 drops. Calvin Johnson. Look at who's had 9 drops and you'll see the Likes of AJ Green, Dez Bryant, or Brandon Marshall. If you go to 8 drops you see Julio Jones, or Reggie White.

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


So obviously they suck and they shouldn't get paid eventhough it's their JOB to not miss those KEY passes right? Or is it only a knock against Cruz?


Just look at Mario Manningham, who had the 12th-best score in 2010 and the 18th-worst in 2011. It’s consistency that helps make some of the best receivers just that; some of the best.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/17/drop-rate-2011-which-receivers-are-dropping-the-ball/


It's unpredictable and if you want like 10 drops a year take away from a great receiver then by all means. But honestly I think the reason Giants fans dislike Cruz is because it took away from everyone loving Hakeem. Which is ridiculous. Both are great yet people are so ready to get rid of one.

Did you people to see how potent 2011 was with both receivers? Oh right, Nicks finished 2nd in yards and we can't have that can we?


This.

The yards honesetly don't speak as loudly. Of course if you are a constant target and have some speed, like Cruz, you're going to get the yards. The drops are still not forgiveable.

To me Nicks is a stud playmaker receiver, and yes Cruz is good and has made some great plays, but I don't place him with Nicks.

Yeah complete hate right here sorry. Ignoring his positives and taking his only his negatives is a childish argument. Whatever though, I can't wait to see you guys all cry when Victor comes back. :D

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 09:00 AM
Try and imagine the offense without Cruz, that should make you appreciate him.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:08 AM
So the fact that he had a lot of KEY drops isn't important? Even though his JOB is to catch the ball?

Name a receiver who doesn't drop balls. Why not focus on his positives?

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:08 AM
This.

The yards honesetly don't speak as loudly. Of course if you are a constant target and have some speed, like Cruz, you're going to get the yards. The drops are still not forgiveable.

To me Nicks is a stud playmaker receiver, and yes Cruz is good and has made some great plays, but I don't place him with Nicks.

Nicks doesn't drop balls? If you are going to harp on dropped passes then include all of the receivers

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 09:12 AM
What about all of Eli's interceptions? He had more than Cruz had drops. Those are wasted possessions rather than wasted plays.

People ***** about the most trivial things on here. The team as a whole stunk last year, Cruz was one of the few bright spots.

Ruttiger711
01-06-2013, 09:20 AM
Did you read the thread? Everyone is looking at the negatives of why he shouldn't be here anymore.




More like everyone is looking at REASONS why the Giants wont pay out a SPECULATED dollar amount, an amount that would put him in the top tier of WR salaries.

Nobodies trashing him and I've yet to see a Giant fan that "dislikes" Cruz anywhere starting with this thread.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 09:51 AM
Why do people overreact on here? Please show me a post where someone said he sucks. We all love Cruz and know what he's brought to this team. The ongoing issue with Victor is that he drops EASY passes, and for the same reason: Looking upfield. Those dropped balls are hard to come by, especially by Victor who is smothered most of the game. So when you have the opportunity, the LAST thing you want to do is drop it because you weren't focused. As for what receiver doesn't drop balls, not every receiver leads the league in drops either. Just food for thought. I'm also not saying he shouldnt get paid, but with our current situation..8-10 or around there is way way way too much. Hopefully he understands that. You have to look at both the positives and negatives. Everyone knows what he can do on the field. People have no problem bashing Eli when he does poorly, why not Cruz?

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 10:20 AM
Why do people overreact on here? Please show me a post where someone said he sucks. We all love Cruz and know what he's brought to this team. The ongoing issue with Victor is that he drops EASY passes, and for the same reason: Looking upfield. Those dropped balls are hard to come by, especially by Victor who is smothered most of the game. So when you have the opportunity, the LAST thing you want to do is drop it because you weren't focused. As for what receiver doesn't drop balls, not every receiver leads the league in drops either. Just food for thought. I'm also not saying he shouldnt get paid, but with our current situation..8-10 or around there is way way way too much. Hopefully he understands that. You have to look at both the positives and negatives. Everyone knows what he can do on the field. People have no problem bashing Eli when he does poorly, why not Cruz?

Overrection is a way of life here, that's what fans do on both sides of every issue. For me, personally, the overwhelming number of negative threads is mind boggling. But it is what it is and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

rainierjef
01-06-2013, 10:28 AM
Did you read the thread? Everyone is looking at the negatives of why he shouldn't be here anymore. Like the drops. Which is a pitiful argument sicne it's only a handufl of plays but it's apparently a huge issue. Yet none of these posters would claim Roddy White is a bad receiver depsite him being a consistent league leader in drops.

Hakeem during 2010 and 2011 was among league leaders in drops too but everyone loves Hakeem so they don't care. Cruz comes in has a great season, steals the shine from Nicks and now everyone can't wait to get rid of him.



Jesus it's one year he had drops. Who's to say this wasn't a fluke? Cruz last year wasn't dropping the ball and all of a sudden he can't do his job anymore? Especially considering the flukeness of drops I don't know how anyone can come to the conclusion that this is a trend. Oh and please we all know the WR is supposed to catch, we aren't stupid.

I love how 10 dropped balls is enough for fans to trash Cruz after what he has produced however it doesn't mean anyhting. Look the the list guess who's tied with Cruz with 10 drops. Calvin Johnson. Look at who's had 9 drops and you'll see the Likes of AJ Green, Dez Bryant, or Brandon Marshall. If you go to 8 drops you see Julio Jones, or Reggie White.

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232


So obviously they suck and they shouldn't get paid eventhough it's their JOB to not miss those KEY passes right? Or is it only a knock against Cruz?


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/17/drop-rate-2011-which-receivers-are-dropping-the-ball/


It's unpredictable and if you want like 10 drops a year take away from a great receiver then by all means. But honestly I think the reason Giants fans dislike Cruz is because it took away from everyone loving Hakeem. Which is ridiculous. Both are great yet people are so ready to get rid of one.

Did you people to see how potent 2011 was with both receivers? Oh right, Nicks finished 2nd in yards and we can't have that can we?



Yeah complete hate right here sorry. Ignoring his positives and taking his only his negatives is a childish argument. Whatever though, I can't wait to see you guys all cry when Victor comes back. :D
Simmadownnaw!
No one is crucifying Cruz. Personally drops happen, but most of Cruz's drops happen cause he is anticipating the hit coming, looking up field for where the defenders are and not looking the ball in. Also he tends to fall to the floor if defenders are close in proximity too him. That's what I mean by playing small ROA. Coaches would say to receivers especially in high school, play bigger than the competition. Meaning fight for every yard, put your body on the line and leave everything on the field. Cruz does not do this like he used to when he was playing for a roster spot and i understand smaller frame
speed receiver going up against big outside corners, safety's, or line backers, playing on a ****ty contract and doing well in it. He wants to preserve his. body, fair enough; but you want that top tier receiver pay then you have to be a player similar to the likes of welker in respect to size/speed/grit. He's not afraid to get hit over the middle and plays on a ****ty contract. When i make this comparison, don't think yards, drops, yac, think approach to the game and style of play.

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Cruz was tied for 2nd in the league for passes dropped this season - tied for 2nd with Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall and Demaryius Thomas... if that helps.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 10:35 AM
Simmadownnaw!
No one is crucifying Cruz. Personally drops happen, but most of Cruz's drops happen cause he is anticipating the hit coming, looking up field for where the defenders are and not looking the ball in. Also he tends to fall to the floor if defenders are close in proximity too him. That's what I mean by playing small ROA. Coaches would say to receivers especially in high school, play bigger than the competition. Meaning fight for every yard, put your body on the line and leave everything on the field. Cruz does not do this like he used to when he was playing for a roster spot and i understand smaller frame
speed receiver going up against big outside corners, safety's, or line backers, playing on a ****ty contract and doing well in it. He wants to preserve his. body, fair enough; but you want that top tier receiver pay then you have to be a player similar to the likes of welker in respect to size/speed/grit. He's not afraid to get hit over the middle and plays on a ****ty contract. When i make this comparison, don't think yards, drops, yac, think approach to the game and style of play.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion based upon whatever criteria they find to be important. On the flip side, others who may disagree, are entitled to express their disagreement. And then there are the totally outlandish posts that speak for themselves.

For me, dropped passes don't tell the whole story. Sinorice Moss rarely dropped a pass. Jerry Reese once said "he catches everything thrown to him." But where is he now? What did he produce for this team?

You have to look at a player's entire body of work.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 10:38 AM
Overrection is a way of life here, that's what fans do on both sides of every issue. For me, personally, the overwhelming number of negative threads is mind boggling. But it is what it is and everyone is entitled to their opinion.Are the negative things that are being said true? Like dropped passes, lack of focus? I'm not sure what you mean by outlandish. You have to look at both the positive and the negative. Again, we do it with everyone else on the team.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 10:43 AM
Are the negative things that are being said true? Like dropped passes, lack of focus? I'm not sure what you mean by outlandish. You have to look at both the positive and the negative. Again, we do it with everyone else on the team.

Yes, we do, and what's outlandish to me may be perfectly acceptable to you.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 10:45 AM
Yes, we do, and what's outlandish to me may be perfectly acceptable to you.I guess so.

ShakeandBake
01-06-2013, 12:21 PM
Are the negative things that are being said true? Like dropped passes, lack of focus? I'm not sure what you mean by outlandish. You have to look at both the positive and the negative. Again, we do it with everyone else on the team.

Unless that player is named Eli, then the townsfolk break out the pitchforks

NorwoodBlue
01-06-2013, 01:08 PM
Cruz, dispite his numbers from 2011, is a second reciever in my book, not a top tier first receiver. When Nicks was hurt and playing when he shouldn't have been, Cruz's production dropped way off. He's not a guy that beats double coverage often, and he's really best from the slot. The reality of the salary cap situation is that the Giants have no choice but to look at Cruz as a number two, and pay him as a two, generously as a two; but still a two. It may boil down to an either or situation between Cruz and Nicks. They simply might not be able to have both. With Nicks' injury history, and Cruz's questionable value as a number one WR, I'm glad I'm not in JR shoes right now. If you sign Cruz; but then loose Nicks next year, how will that work out? Or if Cruz departs and Nicks continues to have injury problems, then that makes the GM look bad too. It's kind of a no win for JR. We probably can't afford both, unless both give a lot to stay; and if you pick the wrong one to stay it might hurt the team for years. Rueben Randle plays a big part in this. If Randle develops well, he can probably replace Nicks. So I'm thinking it's likely that we'll see Cruz resigned, and the pain will be pushed down the road to next year. That gives JR another year to see how Nicks' injuries go, and to see how Randle develops. Best case is that Victor is determined to stay with the Gmen, and does a favorable contract for them. If he does that, then you've at least got a chance of signing Nicks too.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 01:20 PM
Cruz, dispite his numbers from 2011, is a second reciever in my book, not a top tier first receiver. When Nicks was hurt and playing when he shouldn't have been, Cruz's production dropped way off. He's not a guy that beats double coverage often, and he's really best from the slot. The reality of the salary cap situation is that the Giants have no choice but to look at Cruz as a number two, and pay him as a two, generously as a two; but still a two. It may boil down to an either or situation between Cruz and Nicks. They simply might not be able to have both. With Nicks' injury history, and Cruz's questionable value as a number one WR, I'm glad I'm not in JR shoes right now. If you sign Cruz; but then loose Nicks next year, how will that work out? Or if Cruz departs and Nicks continues to have injury problems, then that makes the GM look bad too. It's kind of a no win for JR. We probably can't afford both, unless both give a lot to stay; and if you pick the wrong one to stay it might hurt the team for years. Rueben Randle plays a big part in this. If Randle develops well, he can probably replace Nicks. So I'm thinking it's likely that we'll see Cruz resigned, and the pain will be pushed down the road to next year. That gives JR another year to see how Nicks' injuries go, and to see how Randle develops. Best case is that Victor is determined to stay with the Gmen, and does a favorable contract for them. If he does that, then you've at least got a chance of signing Nicks too.

They actually can afford both as they don't have to deal with Nicks until next season. That will benefit Nicks if he has a healthy, productive season and it will benefit the team if his injuries continue to the extent they stunt his production. If for no other reason than they have to deal with Cruz this season it would be wise to sign him.

I don't like numbering players as # 1 and #2. I prefer to just look at the numbers and go from there. Cruz having better numbers than Nicks for two straight doesn't necessarily make Cruz the better player. But those numbers play a huge part in contract negotiations as does Pro Bowl selection. Personally, I think the Pro Bowl is little more than beauty contest and the game itself should be scrapped. Yet, we continue to see players discusses in terms of "Pro Bowler" as though it's a badge of honor.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 01:57 PM
Unless that player is named Eli, then the townsfolk break out the pitchforksActually we do it to Eli more than any other player but he "deserves it". But Victor gets a pass. Oh ok. I am one of Victor Cruz's biggest fans but in no way do I exclude the negative side of him. It doesn't outweigh the good of course, just pointing it out.

Sarcasman
01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
Did you read the thread? Everyone is looking at the negatives of why he shouldn't be here anymore. Like the drops. Which is a pitiful argument sicne it's only a handufl of plays but it's apparently a huge issue. Yet none of these posters would claim Roddy White is a bad receiver depsite him being a consistent league leader in drops.

Hakeem during 2010 and 2011 was among league leaders in drops too but everyone loves Hakeem so they don't care. Cruz comes in has a great season, steals the shine from Nicks and now everyone can't wait to get rid of him.


I won't pretend to speak for any one else but I don't consider viewing his entire body of work in context to be slamming him. He's a very good receiver - in my opinion a top 10 receiver - and I don't see how that's an insult. Yes, I think that some posters are leaning to hard to the negative but overall I think most everybody wants him back but are realistic to know the difference between very good and elite.

ShakeandBake
01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
Actually we do it to Eli more than any other player but he "deserves it". But Victor gets a pass. Oh ok. I am one of Victor Cruz's biggest fans but in no way do I exclude the negative side of him. It doesn't outweigh the good of course, just pointing it out.

Eli is talked about most because he is the quarterback, that is inevitably going to happen. Everyone deserves it this year, they all played like garbage. I don't see many people giving Cruz a free pass, but if someone dares to criticize Eli their fanhood is questioned which I don't see happening when other players are being criticized.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 02:07 PM
Eli is talked about most because he is the quarterback, that is inevitably going to happen. Everyone deserves it this year, they all played like garbage. I don't see many people giving Cruz a free pass, but if someone dares to criticize Eli their fanhood is questioned which I don't see happening when other players are being criticized.Difference is, people on here arent saying Victor Cruz isnt elite or isnt very good. Some are pointing out a flaw in his game and BAM we are under appreciating him..what?

Hooligans
01-06-2013, 02:38 PM
The Giants will NOT pay Cruz $8-$10 Million per year. Cruz is a great slot WR, but not a No. 1 WR.

Harooni
01-06-2013, 03:15 PM
The Giants will NOT pay Cruz $8-$10 Million per year. Cruz is a great slot WR, but not a No. 1 WR. this number 1 and 2 and 3 reciever is what fans like to label. coaches dont really do that. cruz will get money either from us or another team

I Hate T.O.
01-06-2013, 03:43 PM
No way they pay him that...thats crazy...he's a good reciever...he isnt great. He cant catch half the time beacuse he is afraid of getting hit...

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 03:46 PM
No way they pay him that...thats crazy...he's a good reciever...he isnt great. He cant catch half the time beacuse he is afraid of getting hit...

Are you saying he was targeted 172 times?

NorwoodBlue
01-06-2013, 04:22 PM
this number 1 and 2 and 3 reciever is what fans like to label. coaches dont really do that. cruz will get money either from us or another team

I think the distinction is that a No. 1 WR will get frequent double coverage, and he's expected to still beat that coverage. Nicks beats that coverage when healthy, as Cruz did not when Nicks was playing as the walking wounded. When Rueben Randle was owning the Eagles, they had to take the focus off Cruz, and just like that he showed up again and caught a touchdown. To me, Cruz can't be the big dog, he's got to have someone else who's also a real deep threat to get him into situations where he's effective. For that reason, I dont believe the Giants will offer him top WR money; which may lead to his departure. The fans won't like it; but that's the reality we have to live with.

rainierjef
01-06-2013, 06:10 PM
We do it to Osi without even looking at all the factors. I think fans try their best to be neutral and logical when it comes to these conversations, but fall short of that because they are! Fans.

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 06:14 PM
Are you saying he was targeted 172 times?

143 times. Cruz did have a rather low catch rate, obviously his YAC dropped quite a bit as well.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 06:40 PM
143 times. Cruz did have a rather low catch rate, obviously his YAC dropped quite a bit as well.

And yet be broke 1,000 yards. Luck?

rainierjef
01-06-2013, 06:42 PM
this number 1 and 2 and 3 reciever is what fans like to label. coaches dont really do that. cruz will get money either from us or another team
There is clearly a X,Y, and Z receiver.
Fans translate that to 1,2 and 3 to say Cruz can play all three receiver positions at a high level is a little inaccurate, he thrives in space, he uses speed and shiftiness to beat defenders. He is not a physical receiver like Nick's, he's not going to go up in traffic and risk his body for catch, he is not going to always out muscle that defender jamming him on the line or brace for a hard hit while still running for the extra yards. At least not from what i have seen. He is still a great receiver and manningham should not be even mentioned in this debate; all speed no route separation tactics. I just think that money is a little steep in a cap season with all the free agents we have.

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 06:58 PM
And yet be broke 1,000 yards. Luck?
I'm just stating facts, there was no opinion in my post.

I Hate T.O.
01-06-2013, 07:01 PM
143 times. Cruz did have a rather low catch rate, obviously his YAC dropped quite a bit as well.

When he does catch he drops to the ground a lot...like I said...hes a good reciever but he isnt great.

giantsfan420
01-06-2013, 07:05 PM
Eli is talked about most because he is the quarterback, that is inevitably going to happen. Everyone deserves it this year, they all played like garbage. I don't see many people giving Cruz a free pass, but if someone dares to criticize Eli their fanhood is questioned which I don't see happening when other players are being criticized.am i at the wrong site or something? cuz what ive seen is someone dares to stand up for eli and their fanhoods questioned, at least as much as the counter example. "your a fan of eli. your not a fan of the nyg" but I digress...i think that for the most part this threads been very fair. now i havent been in the discussion for pages, but it seemed to me like most of us are torn. we desperately want cruz back, but also realize the consequences of overpaying.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 07:05 PM
I'm just stating facts, there was no opinion in my post.

I know, I'm just wondering how he has back to back 1,000 yard seasons if he "doesn't catch half" of the balls thrown to him" and "drops to the ground a lot" when he does catch them.

Cloud57
01-06-2013, 07:06 PM
When he does catch he drops to the ground a lot...like I said...hes a good reciever but he isnt great.Does he think he's great? if he does he will be asking for big money.

giantsfan420
01-06-2013, 07:07 PM
When he does catch he drops to the ground a lot...like I said...hes a good reciever but he isnt great.id say hes a great wr and its not even difficult. ive seen him give himself up only when it was the correct thing to do. hes thinking YAC and TD every time he gets the ball in his hands, but has the wisdom to see when the risk is too high and a fumble is just as likely if not more than a td.

giantsfan420
01-06-2013, 07:10 PM
bottom line; can we replace cruzs production? can we attain the same end result numbers, whether by 1 or a collection of players? thats the question here. I dont think we can. But, I also never thought we'd replace ss12. two different players/situations tho. cruz is healthy, and he was the one who replaced ss12. i think JR will see it this way and give him a long term deal worth 6 mil and a signing bonus that brings the yearly net worth to 8 mil, jmho

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 07:13 PM
I know, I'm just wondering how he has back to back 1,000 yard seasons if he "doesn't catch half" of the balls thrown to him" and "drops to the ground a lot" when he does catch them.
Well he certainly caught more than 50% of his targets.

I've no issue with him dropping to the ground, better that than getting lit up. Peyton Manning often sacks himself - no-one complains about that. It's self preservation.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see the offense without Cruz.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 07:15 PM
Well he certainly caught more than 50% of his targets.

I've no issue with him dropping to the ground, better that than getting lit up. Peyton Manning often sacks himself - no-one complains about that. It's self preservation.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see the offense without Cruz.

Fortunately, Reese isn't checking in here for advice :rolleyes:

Sarcasman
01-06-2013, 07:47 PM
Fortunately, Reese isn't checking in here for advice :rolleyes:


I think the Super Bowls win pretty much prove that!

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 07:49 PM
I think the Super Bowls win pretty much prove that!

LOL can't argue with that

DaKraken
01-06-2013, 07:53 PM
...at $8-10 million I would pass on Cruz

This

BigJ
01-06-2013, 08:06 PM
If he wants that what is Mike Wallace looking for? Also isnt Hakim Nicks up fir contract too?

NorwoodBlue
01-06-2013, 08:37 PM
I know, I'm just wondering how he has back to back 1,000 yard seasons if he "doesn't catch half" of the balls thrown to him" and "drops to the ground a lot" when he does catch them.


A few of those 60+ yard receptions really help with the yardage total. He does drop easy balls too often, that's something he needs to work on.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 08:59 PM
So some people are willing to lose Cruz over a million dollars. He had some drops this year , yes but still is a dynamic player. Eli also over threw him a lot also this year. If we don't sign Cruz, some of you babies will be crying that he is catching passes from Romo. We can keep both Nicks and Cruz they are top 5 talents when healthy. I gotta believe JR, knows this too. Just pay this man please...

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 08:59 PM
A few of those 60+ yard receptions really help with the yardage total. He does drop easy balls too often, that's something he needs to work on.

I agree on the dropped passes. He needs to focus on the ball each and every time.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:00 PM
Fortunately, Reese isn't checking in here for advice :rolleyes:
Maybe not but he PM's Morehead all the time.
Who do you think told him to draft JPP?

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:01 PM
Cruz can flat play.
You guys who are trashing him are kidding yourselves.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 09:02 PM
So some people are willing to lose Cruz over a million dollars. He had some drops this year , yes but still is a dynamic player. Eli also over threw him a lot also this year. If we don't sign Cruz, some of you babies will be crying that he is catching passes from Romo. We can keep both Nicks and Cruz they are top 5 talents when healthy. I gotta believe JR, knows this too. Just pay this man please...Oh he'll get paid..just not that much.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:02 PM
Maybe not but he PM's Morehead all the time.
Who do you think told him to draft JPP?

I KNEW you had a hand in that. Harooni tried to take credit, but I smelled a rat. :cool:

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:05 PM
Oh he'll get paid..just not that much.

He'll leave if he gets an offer big enough, who wouldn't? Reese won't overpay and if they try the tag, which they don't like to do, it's reasonable to expect another team will make an offer he won't be able to refuse. One other possibility is to tag him with the assurance that they will make him a better offer before the season starts. They did that with Jacobs.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:05 PM
Oh he'll get paid..just not that much.It's an estimate Cruz won't make less then 7 million a year I'll bet anyone that. so what's the difference between 7-8 or 9 for that matter. You can't let him walk over 2 million. Cruz is to good to just let him walk for that much.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:06 PM
Cruz can flat play.
You guys who are trashing him are kidding yourselves.+1 I am shocked by this really!!!

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:08 PM
Cruz can flat play.
You guys who are trashing him are kidding yourselves.

They're not trashing him, just pointing out his flaws

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:09 PM
It's an estimate Cruz won't make less then 7 million a year I'll bet anyone that. so what's the difference between 7-8 or 9 for that matter. You can't let him walk over 2 million. Cruz is to good to just let him walk for that much.
4 years, $26MM, $12MM Guaranteed.

Morehead has spoken.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:09 PM
They're not trashing him, just pointing out his flaws
You say tomato.......

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:10 PM
4 years, $26MM, $12MM Guaranteed.

Morehead has spoken.lol, no way he takes that..maybe 4 years 32 million, 20 guaranteed.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:10 PM
4 years, $26MM, $12MM Guaranteed.

Morehead has spoken.

Mail it in! But up it ro $28MM, $15 MM Guaranteed

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:16 PM
lol, no way he takes that..maybe 4 years 32 million, 20 guaranteed.
There is no chance in hell that the Giants or anyone are guaranteeing $20MM.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:22 PM
There is no chance in hell that the Giants or anyone are guaranteeing $20MM.I know it was a joke, why people are saying he's greedy and all he wants is money.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 09:26 PM
It's an estimate Cruz won't make less then 7 million a year I'll bet anyone that. so what's the difference between 7-8 or 9 for that matter. You can't let him walk over 2 million. Cruz is to good to just let him walk for that much.We don't have that kind of money for one receiver.

I love the kid to death, but we just don't have that kind of money.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:27 PM
We don't have that kind of money for one receiver.

I love the kid to death, but we just don't have that kind of money.I would hate to see him walk over that....I know Cruz has to give ground too, but I hope JR makes him an offer that isn't insulting.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 09:29 PM
I would hate to see him walk over that....I know Cruz has to give ground too, but I hope JR makes him an offer that isn't insulting.Home town discount perhaps?

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:30 PM
Home town discount perhaps?

It just has to be reasonable

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:31 PM
Home town discount perhaps?
I don't want to sound like Claude Rains...but I would be shocked....SHOCKED to see Victor Cruz in any other uniform than Giants blue next season.

Don't fret Giants fans...he'll be a Giant.

Overdrive92
01-06-2013, 09:31 PM
I would hate to see him walk over that....I know Cruz has to give ground too, but I hope JR makes him an offer that isn't insulting.

Reese fears no one. He's not afraid to give an offer of $1 per year if necessary.

Rudyy
01-06-2013, 09:33 PM
I don't want to sound like Claude Rains...but I would be shocked....SHOCKED to see Victor Cruz in any other uniform than Giants blue next season.

Don't fret Giants fans...he'll be a Giant.If it's around the the price that this thread is suggesting I'll be shocked.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:36 PM
If it's around the the price that this thread is suggesting I'll be shocked.
As RF has said, that $8 to $10MM figure is based on nothing. Its pure speculation.
I can see (as I said) a 4 year deal for a little over $25MM with some nice guaranteed money.

Flip Empty
01-06-2013, 09:37 PM
Reese fears no one. He's not afraid to give an offer of $1 per year if necessary.
That $1 would be prorated over five years. 70c cap hit in year five.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:37 PM
Home town discount perhaps?lol, I just want Cruz here. Cause you can bet your *** that Dallas would sign him, or the Redskins.

Sarcasman
01-06-2013, 09:37 PM
Mail it in! But up it ro $28MM, $15 MM Guaranteed


Book it.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:38 PM
Reese fears no one. He's not afraid to give an offer of $1 per year if necessary.

He couldn't get me for $1 per year unless it was for 20 million years

TCHOF
01-06-2013, 09:39 PM
I don't want to sound like Claude Rains...but I would be shocked....SHOCKED to see Victor Cruz in any other uniform than Giants blue next season.

Don't fret Giants fans...he'll be a Giant.

He'll be here next year, but it might not be because he signs a long term deal.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:39 PM
Reese fears no one. He's not afraid to give an offer of $1 per year if necessary.Well he better fear him catching passes from some else in the NFCE. You don't think Dallas would jump all over Cruz and get rid of Austin?? Or maybe he'll just get signed by the Redskins.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:40 PM
lol, I just want Cruz here. Cause you can bet you *** that Dallas would sign him, or the Redskins.
Don't forget he's a restricted FA. We have a lot of leverage with him. I would be surprised if my numbers were far off.

Sarcasman
01-06-2013, 09:40 PM
He couldn't get me for $1 per year unless it was for 20 million years

Atta-boy! Stand your ground.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:41 PM
Don't forget he's a restricted FA. We have a lot of leverage with him. I would be surprised if my numbers were far off.Yeah but all that means is we can make him an offer first, if he doesn't like it he can test the market, right??

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:43 PM
Atta-boy! Stand your ground.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4Sy0g5hm7vJ9muq3Ho2U1yEF63jLa8 hnRaoyRnuaZBt1X-L5w6w

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:44 PM
Yeah but all that means is we can make him an offer first, if he doesn't like it he can test the market, right??
That's not what it means.
It means we can match any offer, PLUS we get big time draft picks from any team that signs him.
Probably a 1st and a 3rd.

Eliscruzzz
01-06-2013, 09:45 PM
That's not what it means.
It means we can match any offer, PLUS we get big time draft picks from any team that signs him.
Probably a 1st and a 3rd. Yeah but he can still leave....I don't expect him too but it's not far fetched.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:46 PM
Yeah but all that means is we can make him an offer first, if he doesn't like it he can test the market, right??

He can, but the Giants would need to put tender on Cruz. If that were a # 1 draft pick, a lot of teams won't bite. But there are teams out there that might, it's a gamble. A team well under it's CAP that thinks it just needs a productive WR could snatch him up.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 09:49 PM
Yeah but he can still leave....I don't expect him too but it's not far fetched.
Depends how you define "far fetched".
Its probably 20 to 1. In this context......that's far fetched to me.

Not only would a team have to pay him a huge amount of money, but they would lose a 1 round pick and probably another to us to sign him.
That's why we are holding all (or most) of the cards.

RoanokeFan
01-06-2013, 09:51 PM
Depends how you define "far fetched".
Its probably 20 to 1. In this context......that's far fetched to me.

Not only would a team have to pay him a huge amount of money, but they would lose a 1 round pick and probably another to us to sign him.
That's why we are holding all (or most) of the cards.

Go fish?

giantsfan420
01-06-2013, 11:06 PM
lets just throw this situation out there; cruz signs elsewhere, but we gain a 1rst and a 3rd draft pick, and have more room in the cap to get a top notch RT or G/C...then how does everyone feel? from a completely economical stand point, seeing as we got a SB already, and got the production we did for around 1 mil both years (lmao how JR pulled that off is beyond me, talk about lucking out on an UDFA rookie). You sell him high, ie the 1rst and 3rd round pcks, then use one of those spots to address his loss. then u have an additional quality pick and the money u would have spent on him, can now be used on a FA...

its not an easy decision. im with the majority here in wanting him back. but the other scenario isnt exactly terrible.

giantsfan420
01-06-2013, 11:08 PM
for instance, suppose the giants FO works out ss12, deem him 100% healthy, get him on a 2 yr deal at 2 mil, how does that hypothetical change our feelings on cruz?

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 11:14 PM
for instance, suppose the giants FO works out ss12, deem him 100% healthy, get him on a 2 yr deal at 2 mil, how does that hypothetical change our feelings on cruz?
Steve Smith can't play anymore. He's had two years in get healthy. Its too bad but its true. He was smart to get the money from Philly.

And we will not lose Cruz.

gmen0820
01-06-2013, 11:15 PM
Steve Smith can't play anymore.He's the prototypical slot receiver in our system. I don't think it's his knee that's holding him back.

TheEnigma
01-06-2013, 11:16 PM
lets just throw this situation out there; cruz signs elsewhere, but we gain a 1rst and a 3rd draft pick, and have more room in the cap to get a top notch RT or G/C...then how does everyone feel? from a completely economical stand point, seeing as we got a SB already, and got the production we did for around 1 mil both years (lmao how JR pulled that off is beyond me, talk about lucking out on an UDFA rookie). You sell him high, ie the 1rst and 3rd round pcks, then use one of those spots to address his loss. then u have an additional quality pick and the money u would have spent on him, can now be used on a FA...

its not an easy decision. im with the majority here in wanting him back. but the other scenario isnt exactly terrible.

In the scenario we lose Cruz and gain a 2013 1st and 3rd rounder, we would be wise to trade our selections for future 2014 draft picks so we can acquire Jadeveon Clowney. It would be the end of JPP double teams since Clowney will easily win 1v1s against most tackles in football today.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 11:19 PM
He's the prototypical slot receiver in our system. I don't think it's his knee that's holding him back.
We have a great slot WR already. His name is Victor Cruz.
And you guys gotta let go of Steve Smith. First of all you can't go back. Secondly he can't play anymore.

gmen0820
01-06-2013, 11:21 PM
We have a great slot WR already. His name is Victor Cruz.
And you guys gotta let go of Steve Smith. First of all you can't go back. Secondly he can't play anymore.I'm just saying, I don't think his knee is holding him back, and he is a proven stud in our offensive scheme. I'd rather have him than Barden.

gmen0820
01-06-2013, 11:22 PM
In the scenario we lose Cruz and gain a 2013 1st and 3rd rounder, we would be wise to trade our selections for future 2014 draft picks so we can acquire Jadeveon Clowney. It would be the end of JPP double teams since Clowney will easily win 1v1s against most tackles in football today.Patriots will do it before we can even get a plan together.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 11:23 PM
I'm just saying, I don't think his knee is holding him back, and he is a proven stud in our offensive scheme. I'd rather have him than Barden.
I'm sure his knee is exactly what's holding him back. If he was a viable target in St. Louis this season he would have been productive with that QB.

TheEnigma
01-06-2013, 11:26 PM
Patriots will do it before we can even get a plan together.

Patriots acquire the 2014 #1 overall selection for a 2014 5th, Donte Stallworth, and free clam chowder for life.

BrianK01
01-06-2013, 11:29 PM
I don't want to sound like Claude Rains...but I would be shocked....SHOCKED to see Victor Cruz in any other uniform than Giants blue next season.

Don't fret Giants fans...he'll be a Giant.


Don't forget he's a restricted FA. We have a lot of leverage with him. I would be surprised if my numbers were far off.

This^
The Giants are not letting Victor get away. They will do whatever needed to make sure he remains a Giant. Also let's not forget that Cruz wants to stay with the Giants and has said that many times.

gmen0820
01-06-2013, 11:30 PM
I'm sure his knee is exactly what's holding him back. If he was a viable target in St. Louis this season he would have been productive with that QB.Really? The 18th ranked pass offense where no receiver topped 700 yards. I'm not defending his play, but that was far from a potent passing attack.

And again, Smith fits best in Gilbride's scheme. You're basing nothing off of the knee, just the circumstances (bad passing offense, average QB) he finds himself in.

gmen0820
01-06-2013, 11:31 PM
Patriots acquire the 2014 #1 overall selection for a 2014 5th, Donte Stallworth, and free clam chowder for life.And just when we think they'll take Clowney, they trade back for a first in the next three years, and seven SB titles.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 11:32 PM
Really? The 18th ranked pass offense where no receiver topped 700 yards. I'm not defending his play, but that was far from a potent passing attack.

And again, Smith fits best in Gilbride's scheme. You're basing nothing off of the knee, and the circumstances (bad passing offense, average QB) he finds himself in.
He had like 14 catches. He's all done. As I said..its sad, but its just the way it is. The kid can't be productive anymore. I doubt he'll even be invited to a camp next year and you want him to be Victor Cruz's replacement.
C'mon...

And BTW...Wew were 12th. We averaged a whole 18 yards/game more. Not exactly a big difference.

gmen0820
01-06-2013, 11:36 PM
and you want him to be Victor Cruz's replacement.


I'm just saying, I don't think his knee is holding him back, and he is a proven stud in our offensive scheme. I'd rather have him than Barden.

His skills in this offensive system would make him a valuable replacement if we don't resign Barden. Plus, you know he'd come cheap.

Morehead State
01-06-2013, 11:41 PM
His skills in this offensive system would make him a valuable replacement if we don't resign Barden. Plus, you know he'd come cheap.
I don't get you. He doesn't have skills anymore. If he did, he would have been much more productive this season and last. I don't care what system he's in.

Its time to look forward...not backwards.

gmen0820
01-06-2013, 11:55 PM
I don't see how you're not getting it, I'd rather take a flier on Smith who has excelled in Gilbride's system, which is almost as much mental as it is physical -- than resign Barden, who has proven he has no skills. Gilbride's system is partly what set Smith apart and made him special.

And other than point to a lack of production, what have you specifically seen from Smith that you've determined his knee is still bothering him?

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:06 AM
I don't see how you're not getting it, I'd rather take a flier on Smith who has excelled in Gilbride's system, which is almost as much mental as it is physical -- than resign Barden, who has proven he has no skills. Gilbride's system is partly what set Smith apart and made him special.

And other than point to a lack of production, what have you specifically seen from Smith that you've determined his knee is still bothering him?
You don't let a great WR go in order to take a flier on a guy who had microfracture surgery and essentially hasn't produced a thing in 3 years.
That's nuts!
And this obsession you have that somehow a guy who can't play anymore, can magically perform in our system is also crazy. Its the friggin NFL. You have to beat athletic corners and safeties to get open. You can't do that on one leg. I don't care what system its in.

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:10 AM
You don't let a great WR go in order to take a flier on a guy who had microfracture surgery and essentially hasn't produced a thing in 3 years.
That's nuts!
And this obsession you have that somehow a guy who can't play anymore, can magically perform in our system is also crazy. Its the friggin NFL. You have to beat athletic corners and safeties to get open. You can't do that on one leg. I don't care what system its in.Barden is a great receiver? Have you read anything I've written?

And again, what is it that you've seen that shows his knee still being an issue? Marques Colston has had microfracture surgery in both knees, and is great in New Orleans' system.

TheEnigma
01-07-2013, 12:14 AM
Barden is a great receiver? We're going to need a citation for that one sir.

BrianK01
01-07-2013, 12:16 AM
Steve Smith has done nothing since injuring his knee.. nothing. NADA. That is a pretty good indication that he is not regained his pre-injury skill level.

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:17 AM
Barden is a great receiver? Have you read anything I've written?

And again, what is it that you've seen that shows his knee still being an issue? Marques Colston has had microfracture surgery in both knees, and is great in New Orleans' system.
I'll have to look at my posts to see where I said that Barden was a great receiver.

How many years did it take Colston to come back from his surgery? Oh yeah......None. He was back playing well after a few months. Steve Smith had his two + years ago and still can't play. At what point will you see that each injury is different and if a guy hasn't come back from surgery after 2 years, he's probably not coming back.
But lets dump one of the best 2 or 3 slot WR's to take a "flier" on a guy who can't play anymore. Good idea....

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:22 AM
Steve Smith has done nothing since injuring his knee.. nothing. NADA. That is a pretty good indication that he is not regained his pre-injury skill level.No that's a pretty good indication that he struggled his first year back, like most do, and he was in a bad situation last year in a system that doesn't utilize his biggest strength -- his smarts and attention to detail. Here, he would have Eli, and Gilbride's system.

I think it's reasonable to assume that he'd be able to top Barden's productivity, WHICH IS ALL I'M CALLING FOR.

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:25 AM
I'll have to look at my posts to see where I said that Barden was a great receiver.

Here:
You don't let a great WR go in order to take a flier on a guy who had microfracture surgery and essentially hasn't produced a thing in 3 years.


How many years did it take Colston to come back from his surgery? Oh yeah......None. He was back playing well after a few months.
Colston also had the luxury of being in a familiar system which doesn't rely on him for physical talent, the same way Smith was here.

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:30 AM
Here:

Colston also had the luxury of being in a familiar system which doesn't rely on him for physical talent, the same way Smith was here.
I was talking about Victor Cruz.
What the hell!!! Who was ever talking about Barden?

byron
01-07-2013, 12:30 AM
Here:

Colston also had the luxury of being in a familiar system which doesn't rely on him for physical talent, the same way Smith was here. mh thinks your talking about Smith /Cruz...And you think mh is talking about Barden being a great rec something like that...lol.... get on the same page you two !!...very confusing.....

byron
01-07-2013, 12:31 AM
I was talking about Victor Cruz.
What the hell!!! Who was ever talking about Barden? 820 !

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:32 AM
No that's a pretty good indication that he struggled his first year back, like most do, and he was in a bad situation last year in a system that doesn't utilize his biggest strength -- his smarts and attention to detail. Here, he would have Eli, and Gilbride's system.

I think it's reasonable to assume that he'd be able to top Barden's productivity, WHICH IS ALL I'M CALLING FOR.
Don't even think of going there.
You're point was that we could bring in Steve Smith if Cruz went elswhere. You called him some kind of great natural slot guy.
Barden is irrelevant to this subject.

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:36 AM
mh thinks your talking about Smith /Cruz...And you think mh is talking about Barden being a great rec something like that...lol.... get on the same page you two !!...very confusing.....
420 brought up Smith as a replacement for Cruz and 820 agreed with him.

Can't keep these friggin numbers straight (420, 820...Jeez Get real screen names for God's sake!)
Who's the one I crushed in the FF playoffs?....
Oh Yeah...That was 820.
Hahahahaha!!!!!!

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:36 AM
Don't even think of going there.
You're point was that we could bring in Steve Smith if Cruz went elswhere. You called him some kind of great natural slot guy.
Barden is irrelevant to this subject.From the start of the debate, I've been emphatic that I'd take Smith back over Barden, who's a FA this year.

Multiple times I've tried reiterating that, and you've ignored it. Do yourself a favor, go back, and re-read so you don't make the same mistake in your next response.

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:37 AM
From the start of the debate, I've been emphatic that I'd take Smith back over Barden, who's a FA this year.

Multiple times I've tried reiterating that, and you've ignored it. Do yourself a favor, go back, and re-read so you don't make the same mistake in your next response.
STEVE SMITH CAN'T PLAY!!!!!!!!
How many horrible seasons will it take before you get that????

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:37 AM
420 brought up Smith as a replacement for Cruz and 820 agreed with him.

Can't keep these friggin numbers straight (420, 820...Jeez Get real screen names for God's sake!)
Who's the one I crushed in the FF playoffs?....
Oh Yeah...That was 820.
Hahahahaha!!!!!!Lol you did crush me, but you're making an *** out of yourself at this time. You're the only one who has missed what I've been saying this whole time.

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:41 AM
STEVE SMITH CAN'T PLAY!!!!!!!!
How many horrible seasons will it take before you get that????I'm not convinced! That's why I want him to get another shot in our offense (replacing Barden), where all the variables are the same, i.e Eli/Gilbride.

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:44 AM
Lol you did crush me, but you're making an *** out of yourself at this time. You're the only one who has missed what I've been saying this whole time.
Its you who didn't understand what I was talking about. Check the title of the thread.

When I mocked you for suggesting that we dump one of the best two or three slot receivers in the league, did you actually think I was talking about Ramses Barden.
Barden is essentially a ST player. (Which BTW a 4th or 5th WR MUST be). You think Steve Smith would be willing to be the gunner in punt coverage?
Hahaha!!

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:44 AM
Steve Smith last two years (including one season coming off freaking microfracture surgery): 255 yards

Ramses Barden last two years: 314 yards

His upside is higher than Barden's IMO, and he will probably be just as cheap.

Morehead State
01-07-2013, 12:45 AM
I'm not convinced! That's why I want him to get another shot in our offense (replacing Barden), where all the variables are the same, i.e Eli/Gilbride.
Barden is not a slot WR. Barden is a ST player and a 5th or 6th WR.
Unless Steve Smith can play ST, he's not even a good replacement for Barden.

gmen0820
01-07-2013, 12:47 AM
Its you who didn't understand what I was talking about. Check the title of the thread.

When I mocked you for suggesting that we dump one of the best two or three slot receivers in the league, did you actually think I was talking about Ramses Barden.
Barden is essentially a ST player. (Which BTW a 4th or 5th WR MUST be). You think Steve Smith would be willing to be the gunner in punt coverage?
Hahaha!!We started a debate about Steve Smith, I gave my opinion that he was a better option than Barden and you were the only one who missed that key point, what is reading the title gonna do when we're discussing Steve Smith.

Again, you're the only one who had no clue of what I was so clearly saying.