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Mercury
01-03-2013, 02:44 PM
It would be a good idea if someone (who knows what they are doing) could calculate (or approximately calculate) the Cap hits for various players, particularly the ones that often creep up in these MB conversations of late. Then they could be posted in a sticky topic, like the snap count thread. Then we could all refer to them in our many MB conversations, (and blast the fools who don't know what they are talking about! Fun!)

Thank you in advance, person who knows what they are doing.
You are all welcome for my good idea.

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 02:50 PM
Problem is we dont know the actual contract details. Those arent public info.

For instance, I believe Rolle restructured last season, but what are the details of that restructuring?

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 02:53 PM
Problem is we dont know the actual contract details. Those arent public info.

For instance, I believe Rolle restructured last season, but what are the details of that restructuring?

Generally speaking, when you restructure a contract (for cap reasons) you're taking the players' salary for that year and guaranteeing it. That allows you to treat it as a signing bonus and divide it equally over the remainder of the contract as far as the cap is concerned.

Other details in restructuring are pay differences (usually less if at all ... ) and length of contract (ala Osi's extension).

Rolle's restructure was a typical cap move.

Mercury
01-03-2013, 02:54 PM
Maybe an estimated range then?

Maybe it could be added to the off-season guide?

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 02:58 PM
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/

Click on the individual to get the contract specifics. You save base salary and the first $150-250k of the "Misc. Bonus" which is typically the work out bonus (assuming you're cutting before OTAs). Signing bonuses and the remainder of the Misc. Bonus must be paid if cut.

This doesn't include any weirdness in the contract itself (such as deferrals and what not which are rarities).

In the case of Rolle, we'd have to pay him $2 million if we cut him before OTAs and $2 million next year. We'd save $7 million (his base salary) for this year.

You can go on down and apply the same method to all of the other players (it really isn't as complex as all that).

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 03:04 PM
Generally speaking, when you restructure a contract (for cap reasons) you're taking the players' salary for that year and guaranteeing it. That allows you to treat it as a signing bonus and divide it equally over the remainder of the contract as far as the cap is concerned.

Other details in restructuring are pay differences (usually less if at all ... ) and length of contract (ala Osi's extension).

Rolle's restructure was a typical cap move.

I know how restructures work, but I dont know the details of his.

If his base salary was 7 million, and he had 3 years left on it, and converted 6 of the 7 million to a signing bonus, then it adds another 2 million to every year on his contract.

So his cap hit in the current year would have been 3 million ($1mil base + $2mil signing bonus)

But we dont have the details of what it was.

If he is cut, all that signing bonus money accelerates and hits in the current year. Though I believe it can be spread through 2 years.

We need the details. I have no idea of how much of his money was converted to a signing bonus over how many years.


So if Rolle was cut, then the giants should be on the hook for the signing bonus, which in this case would have been the $6 million, plus I believe the original signing bonus which was also distributed through his contract.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 04:00 PM
I know how restructures work, but I dont know the details of his.

If his base salary was 7 million, and he had 3 years left on it, and converted 6 of the 7 million to a signing bonus, then it adds another 2 million to every year on his contract.

So his cap hit in the current year would have been 3 million ($1mil base + $2mil signing bonus)

But we dont have the details of what it was.

If he is cut, all that signing bonus money accelerates and hits in the current year. Though I believe it can be spread through 2 years.

We need the details. I have no idea of how much of his money was converted to a signing bonus over how many years.


So if Rolle was cut, then the giants should be on the hook for the signing bonus, which in this case would have been the $6 million, plus I believe the original signing bonus which was also distributed through his contract.

I was under the impression that for cap purposes the money is deferred (if the team wants to) over the original life the contract once the player is cut. So if a player signs a 5 year, $10 million contract with a $5 million signing bonus and is cut after the first year, the cap hit is spread out over the remaining 4 years (i.e. $1 million per year in this case to the tune of $4 million over the next 4 years).

The player already has his money (signing bonuses are paid immediately (just for general edification sake ... I know you know this)).

Also good point about how much of his salary might have been converted ... I forgot to mention that to the masses. A partial portion of a salary can be converted to a signing bonus (instead of the whole thing). This is still considered "restructuring" a contract.

Example: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20225387/nfl-signing-bonuses-

P.S. - Rolle's original signing bonus was $5 million. The Giants are scheduled to pay out $9 million. I'd assume that the restructure was for $4 million. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/antrel-rolle/

Incidentally, he was guaranteed $15 million. Had he not reached that amount before he was cut I believe THAT amount gets accelerated (as opposed to the signing bonus or restructure).

Mercury
01-03-2013, 04:06 PM
my eyes just glazed over.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 04:20 PM
my eyes just glazed over.

Which is why these same exact posts appear every year :D

The new CBA hasn't helped either.

But hey, you asked! :p

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-03-2013, 04:25 PM
Problem is we dont know the actual contract details. Those arent public info.

For instance, I believe Rolle restructured last season, but what are the details of that restructuring?

this all i could find


http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/antrel-rolle/

CDN_G-FAN
01-03-2013, 04:27 PM
I was under the impression that for cap purposes the money is deferred (if the team wants to) over the original life the contract once the player is cut. So if a player signs a 5 year, $10 million contract with a $5 million signing bonus and is cut after the first year, the cap hit is spread out over the remaining 4 years (i.e. $1 million per year in this case to the tune of $4 million over the next 4 years).

The player already has his money (signing bonuses are paid immediately (just for general edification sake ... I know you know this)).

Also good point about how much of his salary might have been converted ... I forgot to mention that to the masses. A partial portion of a salary can be converted to a signing bonus (instead of the whole thing). This is still considered "restructuring" a contract.

Example: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_20225387/nfl-signing-bonuses-

P.S. - Rolle's original signing bonus was $5 million. The Giants are scheduled to pay out $9 million. I'd assume that the restructure was for $4 million. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/antrel-rolle/

Incidentally, he was guaranteed $15 million. Had he not reached that amount before he was cut I believe THAT amount gets accelerated (as opposed to the signing bonus or restructure).

excellent. can't do better than that explanation. i do believe that signing bonus plus the portion of the guarantee not reached is accelerated.

Mercury
01-03-2013, 04:28 PM
Ok, Kruunch,

I went to the website you posted and I clicked on Eli Manning. When I did, it lists the Cap hit by each year of the contract. For example, it says that Eli's 2013 Cap hit would be 20,850,000.

so is it correct? Or does the restructuring of Eli's contract make this information untrue?

Thanks

CDN_G-FAN
01-03-2013, 04:29 PM
a significant portion of the jump in his cap number is because of his restructuring.

CDN_G-FAN
01-03-2013, 04:30 PM
and that number takes into account his restructuring. if you've noticed they don't calculate team 2013 cap numbers yet (they're still only showing 2012 team cap numbers).

fiddle around with that website. its the bomb.

Mercury
01-03-2013, 04:35 PM
and that number takes into account his restructuring. if you've noticed they don't calculate team 2013 cap numbers yet (they're still only showing 2012 team cap numbers).

fiddle around with that website. its the bomb.

But that's just it, if you click on the name, you do see what the 2013 cap numbers are. But my question is, are they accurate?

CDN_G-FAN
01-03-2013, 04:43 PM
But that's just it, if you click on the name, you do see what the 2013 cap numbers are. But my question is, are they accurate?


this site has simplified the contracts to the best of its ability, but if we read one of those things i doubt we'd be able to figure out what the cap hit each season is.

for message board discussions, its as accurate as you're going to find.

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 04:45 PM
Ok, Kruunch,

I went to the website you posted and I clicked on Eli Manning. When I did, it lists the Cap hit by each year of the contract. For example, it says that Eli's 2013 Cap hit would be 20,850,000.

so is it correct? Or does the restructuring of Eli's contract make this information untrue?

Thanks

That's correct and it's large because he's already been restructured.

But we're not the only team dealing with a $20 million player (Denver, New Orleans, etc ...).

Kruunch
01-03-2013, 04:47 PM
this site has simplified the contracts to the best of its ability, but if we read one of those things i doubt we'd be able to figure out what the cap hit each season is.

for message board discussions, its as accurate as you're going to find.

Correct. That site doesn't list any strange clauses, deferrals, incentives and so on. It does get updated fairly frequently however, so if a player restructures, you should see it up there (which changes the numbers for the rest of the contract as well).

It's good for general knowledge and to see who's draining your team :D

Drez
01-03-2013, 05:20 PM
Problem is we dont know the actual contract details. Those arent public info.

For instance, I believe Rolle restructured last season, but what are the details of that restructuring?
Yeah. We don't get the official numbers. Patricia Traina seems to think we'll have a decent chunk of change to work with (basing it off of a $121m cap), but hasn't given that number out yet (or even a ballpark), lol.

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 05:33 PM
I was under the impression that for cap purposes the money is deferred (if the team wants to) over the original life the contract once the player is cut. So if a player signs a 5 year, $10 million contract with a $5 million signing bonus and is cut after the first year, the cap hit is spread out over the remaining 4 years (i.e. $1 million per year in this case to the tune of $4 million over the next 4 years).

I thought I had read that all of the cap hit has to hit within 2 years. So it is indeed accelerated.

moosedrool
01-03-2013, 05:39 PM
After reviewing the cap hits for 2013 of Diehl, Boley, Webster, Baas, Canty, and Tuck, I think "In Reese we trust" should be changed to "In Reese we can't trust".

2013 cap hits
------------------
Boley 5,900,000 (age 30)
Diehl 4,550,000 (age 32)
Tuck 5,650,000 (age 29)
Rolle 9,250,000 (age 30)
Baas 6,725,000 (age 31)
Webster 9.975,000 (age 30)
Canty 8,200,000 (age 30)

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 05:41 PM
After reviewing the cap hits for 2013 of Diehl, Boley, Webster, Baas, Canty, and Tuck, I think "In Reese we trust" should be changed to "In Reese we can't trust".

2013 cap hits
------------------
Boley 5,900,000
Diehl 4,550,000
Tuck 5,650,000
Rolle 9,250,000
Baas 6,725,000
Webster 9.975,000
Canty 8,200,000

Youll find the same thing on every team if you look at good players who are at the end of their contracts. Almost all contracts get backloaded now

moosedrool
01-03-2013, 05:45 PM
Youll find the same thing on every team if you look at good players who are at the end of their contracts. Almost all contracts get backloaded now

Right, but are the good players all/most over age 30 at the end of the contract?

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 05:46 PM
Right, but are the good players all/most over age 30 at the end of the contract?

I am not sure what you are asking.

moosedrool
01-03-2013, 05:48 PM
I am not sure what you are asking.

I can see shelling out the big bucks for players in their prime. But to have the contracts that large for players over 30 and declining is not good. It's a young man's game.

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 05:49 PM
I can see shelling out the big bucks for players in their prime. But to have the contracts that large for players over 30 and declining is not good. It's a young man's game.

Huh? These are players that WERE signed in their prime. 26 or so years old, get a 5 year contract. Means they will be 30-31 when the backloaded deal maxes out.

moosedrool
01-03-2013, 05:52 PM
Huh? These are players that WERE signed in their prime. 26 or so years old, get a 5 year contract. Means they will be 30-31 when the backloaded deal maxes out.

I know that. The point is contract length when signed. Did the contracts really have to be 5 and 6 years in length? Why not 3 or 4 years?

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 05:55 PM
I know that. The point is contract length when signed. Did the contracts really have to be 5 and 6 years in length? Why not 3 or 4 years?

Because a longer term deal spreads out the cap hit of the signing bonus

ELI_HOF_NYG
01-03-2013, 05:57 PM
at the end of the day these contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. not gauranteed like MLB or the NBA,,sure some of the money is gauranteed but the majority is not.

giants8493
01-03-2013, 05:59 PM
I have a good idea too! But im not sharing. Its a secret for if I ever want to be a NFL GM one day.

slipknottin
01-03-2013, 06:00 PM
at the end of the day these contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. not gauranteed like MLB or the NBA,,sure some of the money is gauranteed but the majority is not.

this does not help the discussion

BlueReign
01-03-2013, 06:10 PM
I know that. The point is contract length when signed. Did the contracts really have to be 5 and 6 years in length? Why not 3 or 4 years?
Players are also looking to have a decently long contract because at the root, they are just like us when it comes to families and not wanting to move them,