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DaveBrown
01-04-2013, 12:47 AM
Not since Accorsi made a splash with Plaxico, Pierce, & McKenzie, have the Giants been able to sign multiple bigger prized free agents in an offseason. Pierce made an interesting point on ESPN radio the other night. He said the team doesn't respond to the media pressure, and he didn't feel they responded to Coughlin either this season. He felt signing some FA's who've never won the big one, who would come in hungry the way Rolle did, and push the guys here. I don't know what space they have or will have after cuts, Cruz signing, etc, but it would be nice to see some veterans at key spots like CB, O line, or LB, come in and create a sense of urgency with those already here. It seems they've been up against the cap every offseason since those signings, so I'm curious to see what room they'll have.

myles2424
01-04-2013, 12:54 AM
Idk about their cap hits, but I'd say canty,boley,Diehl,Webster, & possibly Bradshaw can be lived without....having guys in line to replace them is the question.....Diehl & boley IMO can be easily replaced....canty,he's going to have to take a paycut, we have Joseph & that's it really, Kuhn & Austin we have no clue what's up with these guys....Bradshaw, I love him,but he's always playing hurt....can't pay the guy almost 4mil to play hurt all year while a 1st round RB & promising brown sit the bench......Webster,kinda have to have him,but can't afford to overpay him......even if we drafted a CB,assuming the guys good enough to play, rookies won't see much action until mid season, are we comfortable with prince,Hosley & unknow all year?

moosedrool
01-04-2013, 01:53 AM
are we comfortable with prince,Hosley & unknow all year?

No.

Prince was good when on the field but can he stay on the field for 16 games?

Other than a few plays, Hosley did not impress and at his size can he stay healthy for 16 games?

VBGiantsFan
01-04-2013, 02:03 AM
We are comfortable without Bradshaw if Brown can come back healthy, but that is a big if.

Webster was the equivalent of Tryon towards the end so who knows what value he brings to the team anymore.

We already have Diehls replacement on the roster.

Boley deserves another year. Move him to the Mike and put JWill in his place outside.

moosedrool
01-04-2013, 02:07 AM
We are comfortable without Bradshaw if Brown can come back healthy, but that is a big if.
.

A very big if. I'm sure he'll be healthy at the start of the year. But can he stay healthy. With his running style and body type I have my doubts.

dave56dj
01-04-2013, 02:10 AM
Hosely certainly had his rough patches - expected as a rookie - but he flashed enough to believe he will develop nicely in the NFL. Still we will have to wait and see. Prince played nicely all year and 13 games isn't awful.

slipknottin
01-04-2013, 02:15 AM
Im not sure if you need to bring in big time FAs to motivate the team. I think moving out the players who are content and did not work as hard would work just as well. Rookies if they are worth anything should want to be the best and win the superbowl on their own.

myles2424
01-04-2013, 03:51 AM
Im not sure if you need to bring in big time FAs to motivate the team. I think moving out the players who are content and did not work as hard would work just as well. Rookies if they are worth anything should want to be the best and win the superbowl on their own.

I don't think it's about big time FA or a guy just filling gaps, but the attitude of the players....like tuck, he's one of the few guys on the team that could provide any leadership & guys could lean on,yet he doesn't....that laid back,non Agressive,take it or leave it attitude is contagious....

When times get hard we don't have the strahan,ray Lewis,Dawkins, outspoken leader that leads vocally & by example...
Having played football my whole life, I seen how bad attitudes can effect a whole team & also how players with good hard work ethic,tuff,aggressive players that don't like to lose make everyone around them better....

Maybe I'm crazy, but to me it seems like when times get hard, we don't have any of those type of leaders...

Captain Chaos
01-04-2013, 06:01 AM
Pierce may have a point and the Giants could certainly live without...

NYGisBallin
01-04-2013, 07:26 AM
Vets could certainly help in some positions Rookies in others. I still believe in my heart motivation wasnt the reason why we fell apart this year.. Health in my opinion was the issue.

Kruunch
01-04-2013, 08:48 AM
Not since Accorsi made a splash with Plaxico, Pierce, & McKenzie, have the Giants been able to sign multiple bigger prized free agents in an offseason. Pierce made an interesting point on ESPN radio the other night. He said the team doesn't respond to the media pressure, and he didn't feel they responded to Coughlin either this season. He felt signing some FA's who've never won the big one, who would come in hungry the way Rolle did, and push the guys here. I don't know what space they have or will have after cuts, Cruz signing, etc, but it would be nice to see some veterans at key spots like CB, O line, or LB, come in and create a sense of urgency with those already here. It seems they've been up against the cap every offseason since those signings, so I'm curious to see what room they'll have.

That is some really odd logic for signing an FA.

Kruunch
01-04-2013, 08:51 AM
Im not sure if you need to bring in big time FAs to motivate the team. I think moving out the players who are content and did not work as hard would work just as well. Rookies if they are worth anything should want to be the best and win the superbowl on their own.

To add to your point, if you look at the people who vastly under performed (to expectations) they were CWeb, Osi and Tuck (you could even throw Eli into the mix if you wanted to) ... all guys who have two rings with this team.

There is something to be said for a SB hangover ... how much worse is it when you're double dipping?

Part of the reason the Pats don't tend to keep people around? Keep the hungry players.

WiIdcat
01-04-2013, 08:57 AM
If the Giants got rid of some guys we could make a huge splash in FA this year. List of players getting paid much more than their production:

Canty
Rolle
Diehl
Baas
Webster
Tuck
Boley
Bradshaw

Cut a few of them and this team will improve.

Mercury
01-04-2013, 10:26 AM
We are still in Cap hell and from what I understand the solution is not going to be to cut some of the players listed because we will take Cap hits doing so. So, no sexy FA signings again this year. We will be lucky to resign our own needed FAs.

Buddy333
01-04-2013, 10:44 AM
Can't believe so many wan to get rid of Bradshaw.

Kruunch
01-04-2013, 10:56 AM
Can't believe so many wan to get rid of Bradshaw.

Only from a salary cap perspective. At $5.2 million next year, he's almost at Matt Forte's money.

His production just doesn't merit his contract. Mostly due to injury, but since he has yet to be injury free in any season he's played .... there ya go.

Flip Empty
01-04-2013, 10:59 AM
If the Giants got rid of some guys we could make a huge splash in FA this year. List of players getting paid much more than their production:

Canty
Rolle
Diehl
Baas
Webster
Tuck
Boley
Bradshaw

Cut a few of them and this team will improve.
Who? Cut Diehl and gain $750,000 cap space; cut Baas and lose $9 million in cap space. Cut Rolle and gain $2.5 million. Letting Boley go would save $600k. In many cases it really isn't worth it. Cutting a player is easier said than done.

Out of that list, the only players who are really cuttable, are Canty and Webster. Releasing them would open up around $8 million in cap space.

moosedrool
01-04-2013, 02:15 PM
Out of that list, the only players who are really cuttable, are Canty and Webster. Releasing them would open up around $8 million in cap space.

Then I hope they get cut. They are both going to be 31 and I'd rather see that $8 million given to guys entering their prime (age 24-28).

Drez
01-04-2013, 02:26 PM
Let's wait and see how much cap room we actually have before projecting cap casualties.

giants8493
01-04-2013, 05:53 PM
Let's wait and see how much cap room we actually have before projecting cap casualties.when will this be known! I can not wait till april!!

BlueBlooded1979
01-04-2013, 05:57 PM
Only from a salary cap perspective. At $5.2 million next year, he's almost at Matt Forte's money.

His production just doesn't merit his contract. Mostly due to injury, but since he has yet to be injury free in any season he's played .... there ya go.

Bradshaw is 12m cheaper than Forte over 4 years. His cap hit in 2014 and 2015 are around 9m.

myles2424
01-04-2013, 05:58 PM
Who? Cut Diehl and gain $750,000 cap space; cut Baas and lose $9 million in cap space. Cut Rolle and gain $2.5 million. Letting Boley go would save $600k. In many cases it really isn't worth it. Cutting a player is easier said than done.

Out of that list, the only players who are really cuttable, are Canty and Webster. Releasing them would open up around $8 million in cap space.
IDK much about this, but just curious, how do you figure cutting diehl would only free up 750k? & baas losing 9mil?

drewz
01-04-2013, 05:59 PM
when will this be known! I can not wait till april!!

March is when free agency starts

CDN_G-FAN
01-04-2013, 06:17 PM
canty and rolle were 'big time' free agents IMHO.

while both have contributed to the giants, the account for $18 million of the cap next year combined.

unless you're one piece away, i think FAs are usually at worst a waste of money and more typically way overpriced talent.

now bringing a couple vets with 2 or 3 years left in the tank to push everyone emotionally for a sense of urgency, i really like that idea.

JesseJames
01-04-2013, 06:30 PM
has the Giants current cap situation been published, everyone is saying that we are in cap hell again this year but I can't find the figures, all I can find is opinions but no facts....

moosedrool
01-04-2013, 06:34 PM
unless you're one piece away, i think FAs are usually at worst a waste of money and more typically way overpriced talent.
.

In most cases this appears to be the case. Every once in a while some team gets the performance for the price paid like Tampa did with Vincent Jackson. But it doesn't happen very often.

giants8493
01-04-2013, 06:56 PM
March is when free agency startsyour wisdom is much appreciated.

BigBlueAllDay
01-04-2013, 07:03 PM
It's more appreciation for players like Cruz that will play hard regardless of contract issues instead of FAs looking for big contracts with guaranteed money and then go soft once the money is in the bank.

jomo
01-04-2013, 07:08 PM
Not since Accorsi made a splash with Plaxico, Pierce, & McKenzie, have the Giants been able to sign multiple bigger prized free agents in an offseason. Pierce made an interesting point on ESPN radio the other night. He said the team doesn't respond to the media pressure, and he didn't feel they responded to Coughlin either this season. He felt signing some FA's who've never won the big one, who would come in hungry the way Rolle did, and push the guys here. I don't know what space they have or will have after cuts, Cruz signing, etc, but it would be nice to see some veterans at key spots like CB, O line, or LB, come in and create a sense of urgency with those already here. It seems they've been up against the cap every offseason since those signings, so I'm curious to see what room they'll have.If you recall, Plax was not a big prize. He had outlived his welcome in Pittsburgh due to poor work habits. He and his agent overvalued his worth in the market and there were almost no suitors in the end. He fell to the Giants who signed him for peanuts compared to what a top receiver would have pulled down. McKenzie was also not even close to a "big prize". McKenzie was a good starter with the Jets but also not in great demand. The only one of the 3 you mention who would have been considered a big time signing was Pierce. Spending big money on big NAMES is not a proven route to the Super Bowl. Having great drafts, getting contribution from low draft choices who earn very little coupled with "small" free agent signings at modest dollars is the formula that works and also the one that the Giants follow.

If the media were qualified to craft our strategy for winning, they would be making 10 times what they currently earn as front office people with NFL teams. I see no reason to follow their lead in deciding which road to follow. They are mostly empty suits and empty heads.

Drez
01-04-2013, 11:42 PM
has the Giants current cap situation been published, everyone is saying that we are in cap hell again this year but I can't find the figures, all I can find is opinions but no facts....
Nothing has been published yet. I know Traina has looked over the numbers (and I'm sure she's not using Sportrac), and thinks we'll have a decent amount to work with. A detailed explanation will be in the Feb issue of Inside Football (costs $5), but she plans on doing a blog post about it sometime either this weekend or next. Still won't be official, but it'll be closer than anything we can find out.

bearbryant
01-05-2013, 12:39 AM
Not since Accorsi made a splash with Plaxico, Pierce, & McKenzie, have the Giants been able to sign multiple bigger prized free agents in an offseason. Pierce made an interesting point on ESPN radio the other night. He said the team doesn't respond to the media pressure, and he didn't feel they responded to Coughlin either this season. He felt signing some FA's who've never won the big one, who would come in hungry the way Rolle did, and push the guys here. I don't know what space they have or will have after cuts, Cruz signing, etc, but it would be nice to see some veterans at key spots like CB, O line, or LB, come in and create a sense of urgency with those already here. It seems they've been up against the cap every offseason since those signings, so I'm curious to see what room they'll have.

Yes, I agree that the Giants didn't respond to the media or their H.C. but neither of those FA signings noted were " prized". In fact, they grew up in N.Y. if the truth be told. Anyhow, I've always thought that " buying" a ring was a very expensive and uncertain method of improving your team not to mention it's a very pricey way to get cheerleaders. I buy into the Giants way of getting needed 1 or 2 positions filled along with improving the morale and attitude in the lockerroom: experienced vets that aren't out of gas! Look at the performance locklear gave us this season, nice pick up!

Flip Empty
01-05-2013, 12:42 AM
IDK much about this, but just curious, how do you figure cutting diehl would only free up 750k? & baas losing 9mil?
My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that when you cut a player, all of his contract's remaining bonus money counts against the current year's cap in one hit.

eg. Diehl is set to earn a $4.1 million base salary next season, but he also has $3 million worth of signing bonus, and $350,000 of what I presume is an escalator he's activated. In all, that makes $7,450,000.
Deducting the $3,350,000 worth of bonuses from Diehl's $4.1 mil base would leave 750k.

myles2424
01-05-2013, 01:15 AM
My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that when you cut a player, all of his contract's remaining bonus money counts against the current year's cap in one hit.

eg. Diehl is set to earn a $4.1 million base salary next season, but he also has $3 million worth of signing bonus, and $350,000 of what I presume is an escalator he's activated. In all, that makes $7,450,000.
Deducting the $3,350,000 worth of bonuses from Diehl's $4.1 mil base would leave 750k.
I thought it was all about the guaranteed $$$

Flip Empty
01-05-2013, 01:22 AM
I thought it was all about the guaranteed $$$
Yep, any bonus is counted as guaranteed money.

Drez
01-05-2013, 01:34 AM
Yep, any bonus is counted as guaranteed money.
I think what he's getting at is why are you deducting the bonus money from the salary when coming up with the cap savings. If we cut him, we'd only be on the hook for $3.35m of the $7.45m. We'd still be relieved of his base salary.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:42 AM
We pay D 3.35 but dont need to pay him the 4.1 so we save 750k

750k can make a big difference though, paying somebody 5 is a lot different than 5.75

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:43 AM
imo we need some new players in here to issue a new attitude around the locker room too many players are contempt with 2 sb's.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:43 AM
they need 2 stop eating the oreos and start winning sb's again.

Drez
01-05-2013, 01:43 AM
We pay D 3.35 but dont need to pay him the 4.1 so we save 750k

750k can make a big difference though, paying somebody 5 is a lot different than 5.75

No, we pay him 3.35, but don't pay him 7.45.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:46 AM
Yes 3.35+4.1=7.45 but this is simple

He is garunteed 3.35 million, so we pay him 3.35. He has 3.35 in his pocket walking out the door AGAINST our cap. So right now we are -3.35 with him.

We gain 4.1 since we don't need to pay his salary.

We are +750k now.

Drez
01-05-2013, 02:12 AM
Yes 3.35+4.1=7.45 but this is simple

He is garunteed 3.35 million, so we pay him 3.35. He has 3.35 in his pocket walking out the door AGAINST our cap. So right now we are -3.35 with him.

We gain 4.1 since we don't need to pay his salary.

We are +750k now.
Alright, for argument's sake let's say the cap is $121m and with Diehl's contract we are at $120m. If we released him, the $3.35m would still count against the cap, however the $4.1 would not. We'd be at $115.9m total team salary.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 02:15 AM
Okay so we loosen up 4.1 but we need to pay him 3.35...

120 - 4.1 + 3.35 = 119.25

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 02:16 AM
3.35 is the cap hit...

Drez
01-05-2013, 02:20 AM
Okay so we loosen up 4.1 but we need to pay him 3.35...

120 - 4.1 + 3.35 = 119.25
No, the $120m has the $7.45m built into it; you free up $4.1m out of $7.45m... Only paying him the bonus money.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 02:22 AM
7 whatever is his full salary combined...

he is paid 4.1 but his bonus is 3.35
we cut him we need to pay him 3.35 and that is against the cap.
We save 4.1 million, but we still need to pay him the 3.35, it's not like we take 3.35 out of the 7 and magically get 4.1 out of it no..
the 3.35 dont go against the cap when we pay him it thats what ur confusing yourself with... it only counts against the cap when we cut him..
his total salary against the cap is 4.1 right now..
if we take out 3.35 (which when we cut him will be against the cap) it will be mean we only save .750k against the cap.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 02:24 AM
His total number agaisnt the cap is 4.1 not 7.45 or whatever.. the bonuses do not go against the cap.. they only go against the cap when you cut the player.

In that case every team would cut all their players because usually the bonus is lower than the salary but it's not worth it when you look at it.

Player a has a contract of 4m in cap and 5m in bonuses so the team pays him 9m
but only 4m is against the cap.. the 5 is in bonuses so it doesnt make sense to cut him because you wouldnt be saving money youd lose money agaisnt the cap..

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 02:25 AM
but if we took your logic.. okay 4+5= 9 so we pay him 5 but we gain 4.. no..

they'd lose 1m agaisnt the cap..

Drez
01-05-2013, 02:47 AM
7 whatever is his full salary combined...

he is paid 4.1 but his bonus is 3.35
we cut him we need to pay him 3.35 and that is against the cap.
We save 4.1 million, but we still need to pay him the 3.35, it's not like we take 3.35 out of the 7 and magically get 4.1 out of it no..
the 3.35 dont go against the cap when we pay him it thats what ur confusing yourself with... it only counts against the cap when we cut him..
his total salary against the cap is 4.1 right now..
if we take out 3.35 (which when we cut him will be against the cap) it will be mean we only save .750k against the cap.
Signing bonuses count against the cap at all times, not just when you cut a player. Right now, Diehl's cap hit for 2013 is $7.45m.

When you cut a player, ALL of their remaining bonus money counts against the cap. Bonuses allow a team to give a guy that money up front (or however agreed upon), yet spread the cap hit throughout the life of the contract. Of Diehl's $31m contract, $12.4m was signing bonus and an additional 2.22875m in additional bonuses for a total bonus amount of 14,687,500m. If we cut him after year 1 (base $1m and bonuses of $1.8m), we would have had a cap penalty of ~$12.9m the following year (the remainder of the bonus money).

However, this is the last year of the contract so we'd only owe him the $3.35m and be relieved of the $4.1m base salary. We would free up $4.1m is cap space by cutting him.

Giantsfan241
01-05-2013, 01:44 PM
Bonuses do not go against the cap.. that's why when teams are in cap trouble they try to move the base salary into bonuses.

brad
01-05-2013, 02:07 PM
Bonuses do not go against the cap.. that's why when teams are in cap trouble they try to move the base salary into bonuses.

Bonuses count against the cap, they are just spread throughout the length of the contract rather than all at once... if you cut the player the remainder of that bonus hits the cap at one time

giants8493
01-05-2013, 02:56 PM
Why can't we just pay people under the table.?

bigbluetribe
01-05-2013, 03:01 PM
Why can't we just pay people under the table.?
someone would probably tweet about it and get us screwed hha

giants8493
01-05-2013, 03:02 PM
someone would probably tweet about it and get us screwed hhaThats why no one but me will know. I wont tell anyone.

speedman
01-05-2013, 03:13 PM
His total number agaisnt the cap is 4.1 not 7.45 or whatever.. the bonuses do not go against the cap.. they only go against the cap when you cut the player.

In that case every team would cut all their players because usually the bonus is lower than the salary but it's not worth it when you look at it.

Player a has a contract of 4m in cap and 5m in bonuses so the team pays him 9m
but only 4m is against the cap.. the 5 is in bonuses so it doesnt make sense to cut him because you wouldnt be saving money youd lose money agaisnt the cap..Are you saying that bonuses never count against the cap?

speedman
01-05-2013, 03:15 PM
Bonuses do not go against the cap.. that's why when teams are in cap trouble they try to move the base salary into bonuses.Definitely not my understanding.

brad
01-05-2013, 03:39 PM
Definitely not my understanding.

Would be nice though.. they could just give everyone bonuses and no salary at all... never would have a problem with the cap again!

bigbluetribe
01-05-2013, 03:41 PM
Thats why no one but me will know. I wont tell anyone.
haha alright well its not cheating if you dont get caught so go for it

slipknottin
01-05-2013, 04:27 PM
Bonuses count against the cap, they are just spread throughout the length of the contract rather than all at once... if you cut the player the remainder of that bonus hits the cap at one time

I believe it can be had to hit over the next 2 seasons, instead of all in the first season.

penguinfarmer
01-05-2013, 05:02 PM
Bonuses hit the cap. I don't know where that hullabaloo came from. Incentives are an exception, but teams only have less than 6mil in incentives to offer for the entire roster.

penguinfarmer
01-05-2013, 05:05 PM
Bonuses do not go against the cap.. that's why when teams are in cap trouble they try to move the base salary into bonuses.

No. Teams turn the base salary of a single year into a prorated bonus spread over the course of the remainder of the contract, thus increasing the cap hit in those following years and making it more costly to release or trade. It's a sloppy practice, and it absolutely hits the cap.